S2 Ep5: Personality of a Tan Wall with Tobin Low
00:00Alex, do you think that we should tell them our little secret?I think we should.Our secret is that we are going on tour this summer.Woo!We're going to be sharing a new gossip story with you all, but this time live on a stage.There will be special guests and glow sticks and games.It's going to be so messy.You can get tickets at normalgossiplive.com.
00:25And bring your secrets.Because we're going to read them.I like that your two options were, like, as a non-confrontational person, I would do nothing.But the other option is to just set off a bomb that would ruin everyone.It's the way the mind works.I don't know.Hi, I'm Kelsey McKinney and welcome to Normal Gossip, the show where we share an anonymousmorsel of gossip from the real world.
00:57Before we get into today's excellent gossip, I just want to do a couple of quick reminders.As you know, each season is eight episodes and then two bonus episodes.So we have one bonus episode we're very excited about, but it's a secret.The second bonus episode we need your help for, again, we're going to be producing anotherlistener's story based episode.And this time we are asking for your drama from niche groups.We're talking clubs, societies, alumni associations, your homeowners groups, your dog walkinggroups, your seed sharing libraries, your little free library construction groups.
01:37We want anything you have on niche drama.The way you may give that to us is you can call the voicemail box at 2679 gossip.Please remember the voicemail box cuts you off after three minutes or you can send usan email to normal gossip at defector.com.You can also send voice memos to that email if that's easier for you.Please do not send your gossip to our Instagram DMs because I will lose it.The other little piece of business we need to do is just remind you that you can becomea subscriber.
02:09Last week we released our first extra bonus episode for subscribers, which all subscribersget.We had our listener guest.It was amazing.I had so much fun and we're currently in the process of picking our next guest from thesubscriber pool.So if you want to be a guest on one of the bonus episodes, please become a subscriber.It really helps us make the show.
02:28Okay, enough business.Today we have with us Tobin Lowe.Tobin Lowe was a producer at Radio Lab.He also co-hosted Nancy, a show about the contemporary queer experience, which we really like.And he's also served as a producer on the first season of More Perfect.He is currently an editor at This American Life Tobin.Welcome.Thank you.
02:50I am overjoyed to be here truly.We are so happy to have you.Can we start off with a classic question and you can tell me what your relationship iswith gossip?I love it.I adore it.It fuels me.I like to call myself a benevolent gossip, which is...
03:11What does that mean to you?It's a very loose definition, but I think it means something like, if the gossip isnot going to harm someone's life or livelihood in a way that they do not deserve, then...That's a key caveat.Yeah, key caveat.Then I am more than happy to be like a receptacle for it, a spreader of it, a sort of like joyfulgossiper.I think this is a thing that you've talked about on the show before, but there is nothing
03:43more endearing to a new person that you're establishing a relationship with than to belike, got any good gossip.It's like you're immediately conspiratorial with that person.You enter that secret space and it's so fun.I am all for it.I love it.Do you...Lindsay told us in the last episode that she has been starting off a lot of conversations
04:07with just randos by being like, do you have any gossip for me?Is that your entryway?How do you gossip?Who do you gossip with?I feel like I have done it with strangers.I have done it with strangers.It's such a weird way of saying that.I think it's good.
04:28Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.We're going to go with it.I have done it with strangers.I feel like...All adventurous women do.I love it.I feel like, especially in journalism circles, I feel like so much of it is the group chatsabout who's going where and what's happening behind the scenes and all that kind of stuff.
04:53So I feel like I'm in a lot of industry group chats of just keeping tabs on stuff.Oh, and I should also say, plug for anyone who loves gossip.Get yourself into a journalism group chat or more specifically, get yourself into a radioproducer group chat because I feel like the requirements of being a radio producer lendthemselves extremely well to getting a lot of detail about a rando.I feel like because radio producer on any given show that you love is such a catch-allterm.Part researcher, part reporter, part logistical person who needs to make everything happen,
05:40it lends itself extremely well to somebody dropping in the group chat.Does anyone know anything about this person, like this radio thing happened?And then everyone answers with, here's their shirt size.I found it via do-do-do-do-do, Google, whatever, whatever.Here's their Instagram.Here's a deep cut from their Instagram that tells us this about them.Yeah.I just feel like it's a really fruitful group to be part of if you love that sort of like
06:13living in an insecty way inside of somebody else's life and living that stuff out.Why do you need to do that?What is it about your job that requires this kind of investigative journalism backgroundresearching?I don't know if it needs it.I think that part of like, because to be good at the job, you have to kind of like that,that like noziness.So are you like that in your personal life too?
06:41Like if you meet someone at a party, are you like 500 pictures deep in their Instagram?I am, so it's fine to say that you are.I just think like, yeah, I mean, I don't want to be that kind of person, but I think sometimesI am.Why?Why don't you want to be that kind of person?Because nobody wants to be that person, I think.Or nobody wants to admit to being that type of person.
07:10As much as we are all that person, it also gets labeled as like you don't want to bepublicly identified as the person who's like 20 deep on somebody's, like into like 2015Instagram posts.Yeah.There's like nothing scarier than scrolling and you like almost double tap somethingfrom like 2014.No greater terror exists.Oh my God.
07:34A cold chill just went down my spine.I'm sorry, I didn't mean, this is not a horror podcast, it's my bad.So a lot of people have made a distinction between like loving gossip and being a gossip.Do you consider yourself a gossip?Yes, if I'm being honest, I do consider myself to be a gossip.Again, we're trying for benevolent gossip, where we're not like coming for people'slives and livelihoods unnecessarily.Yes.
08:05I feel like the best route to getting good gossip is to have a very close extended family.To be aware of sort of like third cousins twice removed like out here, but like to havethe sort of family that talks about the movings of like family that far out.So what is your like family dynamic and like what is happening in your family, please?Please, my sad small family, we're so poor.So I think this is probably like a thing that a lot of like POC will recognize as like Iam very aware of like my mom's cousins, my dad's cousins, they're all uncles and auntsand like cousins who are actually like way removed or just cousins, they're just like
08:59family.And so what you have is like this big network of people who are all related to each otherand it's like primed for how gossip works in that third cousin over here has a thinghappen.They tell their parent about it and then that parent tells that parent and then that parenttells that grandparent.Like, and there's a thing where it like filters to you of like this thing happened to suchand such cousin.
09:26You're at the family reunion, like is it true that your boyfriend hit you with a go-kartand they're like, no.I mean, to be fair to my family, it's nothing ever salacious, but it has that feeling ofjust like of like the way that gossip spreads.It works perfectly for a large extended family that is like aware of each other.And then also alternately another I feel like child of immigrants experience is like sometimesyour grandmother will just drop the most insane story you've ever heard about their parentsor something like suddenly out of nowhere, it'll be like, well, you know, my father had
10:08a second family and then went to go live with that man that's like it's so casually droppedand you're like, what, excuse me and that and that that's sort of like family gossipand how that functions.I feel like it's a similar mechanism to like learning great gossip.Yeah.I'm not a child of immigrants.My family has been extremely white and poor in America for a very long time, but my grandfatheralso did this to me recently.
10:39Like I was at his house and he was like, oh, this extreme trauma that I saw happen to myfather when I was five and I was like, what?And then I told my mom about it and she was like, oh, I didn't even know that.I was like, what is happening?Like what?I think it's just like the boomers and above they just like, they kept every gossip.They kept it all.Yes.
11:01Yes.It's all internal and then it comes out just in little spirts and the rest of us are like,excuse me?What?This is like a good, really good argument to like go interview your great grandparentsor grandparents and they are still alive and be like, who is the first person you kissed?Yes.Tell me, hurry.
11:26So today's gossip is about work.We're doing some work gossip.Have you ever had to work with someone that you like just did not get along with?I mean, I'm alive.So yeah.So you're ready to just like relate entirely to having a work enemy, which is like theopposite of work wife, I guess.It's like your work ex-husband.
11:51Well, so this is interesting.I feel like, I mean, I'll find out from hearing the story, but I feel like I've had peoplewho are quietly my work enemy, but I don't know if they knew they were my work enemy.What do you mean?Because I'm not, like, I don't know that I'm confrontational in that way to sort of registera diss.Oh my God.I mean, you also are good.
12:13Anyone who works with me is not going to be so proud.You also are like good, like professional and good at your job.So obviously you're not like, fuck you, buddy, like, I hate my work, my work, I hate workingwith you.Like you're capable of a level of professionalism that means that you can also be like, yes.Thank you for framing that in the correct adult.Yeah.I gotcha.
12:37I gotcha.I know that you don't hate all of your co-workers.Right.You can tell them that you don't hate them.Yes.Don't worry.I guess also like, I feel like I have worked with people who have openly registered theirdislike for a co-worker and their, like, their enmity has been on display and I don't understand
12:54that.It's dangerous.Yeah.Okay.Well, would you like to do some gossip?Please.Okay, Tobin, we're back.It's time to do some gossiping.
13:12Okay.I'm ready.I'm ready.Okay.Good.Deep breath.That's all that comes from a friend of a friend.It's about working.
13:21Okay.Our main character today is named Kira.She's 21 years old.She's a college student at a university that's like right outside of Mid size city and shehas a part time job at a national coffee chain downtown.Uh-huh.Is it warbucks?I'm going to plead the fifth.
13:42Okay fair enough.So the first two years of having this job,she woke up early, drove 30 minutes to the store,opened, and then left at the end of the morning shiftto get back to campus for her afternoon classes.OK.So this semester, she has some classshe needs to graduate at 9 AM.
14:00So her whole schedule has gotten fucked up, right?And now she needs to work nights,which is usually from like 6 PM to midnightwhen the coffee store closes.Oh, man.Porchera.Plus time for cleanup, exactly.This would be fine, totally fine,
14:15except that the night shift manageris this girl named Bailey that Kira does not like.Uh-huh, OK.It's not that Bailey is like a bad person,or even that she's a really bad manager.She's a good manager.But she's in her late 20s.She's a supervisor, and she has the personality
14:32of like a tan wall.When Kira first meets her, she's like, oh my god, ha ha.So cute that your name is Bailey,and you work in a coffee shop.And Bailey's like, what?Oh, no.She's just giving her nothing.And Kira's like, you know, you can put
14:51Bailey's in your coffee.Like, it's funny.Bailey, coffee shop.And Bailey's like, oh.No.I don't like Bailey either.I'm sorry to you, Bailey.But like, are you a sex in the city watcher?
15:04I am.Yes, of course I am.I love drama.Yeah.Do you remember the episode whereCarrie ends up at lunch with her Vogue editor?Yes.And at some point, she just stops,
15:16and she's like, I'm working my ass off here.You've got to give me something.I think about that all the time with people like Bailey,where sometimes you're just like, I'm working my ass off here.Give me something.Please one drop of interest.Yes.Exactly the vibe.
15:33Bailey on top of this takes her jobat the national coffee chain like way too seriously.Like she keeps track of when people are late.She starts a stopwatch for people's 15 minute breaks.She's like the type of person who will not mix work and play,even though this is like an hourly wage.So she like won't go out to drinks with coworkersafter shifts.
15:52She doesn't come when she's invited to birthday parties.But part of this is because she's like an extremelyprivate person, right?So after like three years, Kira doesn't evenknow if she has any siblings, kind of private.Gotcha.And everyone else at this job is like us just like throwingour secrets out into the ether.
16:11Gotcha.OK.So Kira's best friend at work named Hopehas worked the late shift a lot.And she basically warns Kira.She's like, Bailey is fine and she will leave you aloneas long as you just do your job and show up on time.OK, easy enough.
16:27Exactly.Kira's like, great, I can do that.Her first day on the night shift,Hope is working what is like a mid shift.So when Kira starts, Hope is still there, right?OK.At the coffee shop, this is important.As I understand it, there are four places
16:43you can be if you're working.Uh-huh.You can be at the drive-thru window.You can be at the register for the in-store customers.You can be at the espresso machine like making drinksor you can be in the back.OK.This is this is the stage.
17:01Back of the coffee shop, like youknow what the drive-thru window is, the register,the espresso machine.I assume you have a good like vision up in your head.Yes, I can see it.The back of the coffee shop for your visionis just like more supplies.It's refrigerators.
17:15It's like the office for shift managers.It's where you like put your backpack, right?It's all of that crap.OK.It's important to know these positionsbecause the company has a rule that someonehas to be out on the floor with eyes on the store at all times.OK, makes sense.
17:30So like in the night shift, if there's only two of you working,like if Kira and Hope were working togetherand they need to do dishes, it doesn'tmatter if it would go faster for two of themto go back into the back to do dishes.One of them has to stay out front.Gotcha.OK, OK.
17:45So Hope tells Kira on her first day on the night shift,she's like, here's the deal.The best move on the night shift isto try and get bar duty where you'rewatching the inside of the store because then youcan like clean the machines and the floor,but you don't have to like take out the trash in the bins.Yes, and I imagine coffee shop at night,
18:05it's not the same as getting slammed in the morning.Yes.On bar duty.Exactly.OK.Kira's like, great tip, thank you.But she's also like really nervous her first daybecause she knows that Bailey fired someone last year
18:19for incompetence.OK.And it's like kind of rare to get firedif you didn't steal something at like these kind of stores.And so Kira's like, I'm stressed.And Hope is like, no, the thing with Baileythat you just really have to understandis like she will protect you and take care of you.
18:37The person she fired needed to be fired.Like they were bad.Oh, interesting.So Hope is a little bit team Bailey.A little bit, yeah.OK, OK.Interesting.Kira's like, if my work wife is willing to vouch for her, fine.
18:53Her first night is fine.It's a little boring.Kira's like trying to chat.Bailey is just not having it.Kira's like trying to get conversation going, right?She's like working really hard.She's like, if you could go anywhere in the world,where would you want to go?
19:08And Bailey's like, I would go to Disney World,but then just like would not elaborate.Oh, oh, oh.I feel like we just unearthed a very important detail, whichis like Bailey's perhaps a Disney adult.That's what we're getting at.OK.Yes.
19:24A lot of information comes with that, I think.Yes.It's like a whole funnel of information.Which is like, it's fine to be a Disney adult,but could you at least show some enthusiasmso that we can have a conversation about itin this terrible coffee shop?Mm-hmm.
19:40Next day, Kira is working the drive-through windowfor her shift, and hope is working the espresso barwhen in Waltz's Oliver.Is there going to be a sound effect there about Oliver?It feels like a major person just entered.OK, keep going.Sorry.Stop producing.
19:59Hope is like, OK, so they're all wearing headsets, right?This is important.They're all wearing headsets, and they can talk to each other.So hope into her headset as Oliver walks in is like, oh no.Kira looks over, and there is Oliver putting on his apron,and Kira is like, ugh.No.From the back, they hear Bailey over her headset
20:21be like, you two be nice to Oliver.Hope pulls her mic down and leans over to Kira,and is like, well, Bailey's not even out here to see Olivercome in.She just knows that we're upset because he's here.What's the deal with Oliver?We're going to get into it.Oliver is a barista also.
20:44He's one of those guys who always looks like he's still asleep.He doesn't own a hairbrush, probably.His nails are too long.He's this kind of guy, and he's what they call a green beanin this company, which means that he's really new.OK, OK, OK, coffee baby.Exactly, except that he's not that new.Kira doesn't like Oliver because once when they were working
21:15the morning shift together, she casuallyasked after his girlfriend whose name is Plum.OK.And Oliver bristled, and he was like,how do you know my girlfriend's name?And Kira was like, one, her name is Plum,and two, you told me.And then Oliver was like, well, we broke up,
21:38so thanks for reminding me.Oh, no.And Kira was like, oh my god, I'm so sorry that you broke up.Like, why did you break up?And Oliver was like, oh, she wasn't good at hiking.Oh, no, Oliver.Oh, no.And Kira was like, didn't you meet hiking?
21:53And Oliver was like, yeah.Say it, say it.Kira is just working her ass off to relate to these people,and she's being met with a wall everywhere.She's getting nothing.She's getting nothing.So Kira just like believes that Oliver is like one annoyinglike kind of a womanizer, maybe.
22:14And just like also does not seem aware that his colleaguesare like people that he should be like trying to help.Like he will leave people out on the floor drowning, right?No.OK.Not that that would really matter,because he is genuinely an awful barista.Like he's been at the store for about seven months,
22:34which should be plenty of time to get the hang of it.But Oliver has like atrocious,spatial awareness, which you can imagine is rather importantif you are working in a tight space with a lot of liquids.Right.Right.What I know of like said coffee chain at the busiest timesis it is like a frantic run around behind the bar
22:58to get orders out, et cetera, et cetera.Yes.So everyone who works with Oliver ends up with like bruisesbecause he like doesn't check doors before he flings them open.Like if you work a shift with him,you have to like plan to go home and showerbecause he just like drops things and then they like splatterall over you.
23:17Like once Kira had to go home after work instead of to a partybecause he dropped a whole quad shot iced latte just likedown the front of for sure.I guess my immediate question and maybe we're getting to itis like if somebody else was quote unquote rightfully fired for negligencelike why is Oliver still there?This is a question that Kira and Hope are constantly asking.Yes.
23:41They're like what is this guy doing?He doesn't know like there are like words in a kitchen,right?Like you're like behind or corner right to signal like where you areor at like the worst you would put like two fingers on someone's shoulderlike you would do at a party to be like I'm coming behind you don'tturn around.Oliver does not do this.
24:00He just like shoves through.Okay.Oh man.But Oliver for a long time has been on the morning shift.So he hasn't been with Kira but not with Bailey.So Hope and Kira are like Bailey is going to eat this man alive.Oh, Bailey doesn't hasn't interacted with Oliver.Okay.
24:22Yes.Great.Sure enough.Sure enough.She does eat him alive.Like his first shift she is so fucking critical of him.She's like you're doing your job wrong.Like what is the point in you even being here?
24:38Like why can't you do this to the point that Kira is like Jesus.Like he's a this is a coffee shop.Like he's a part-time employee.Like maybe chill for like one second.Sure.Do you think that she should like intervene into the scenario where Bailey is just constantlyrebuking Oliver who she does not like?Sure.
25:01If it gets into a territory of abuse or like really truly too far like yes intervene butalso in defense of Bailey.I have been in the situation where the powers that be or whatever let somebody slide forfar too long.And sometimes all you need is the one person who's willing to like lay down the law.Exactly.And so like in this moment like it does sound like she's going too far.We could pull it back.
25:34But the energy behind what Bailey is doing like I'm a little bit team Bailey in thismoment.And I kind of want Kira within reason to just sit back and let it play out.Also this is not really Kira's like it's not hers to fix.Yes.The other thing like we're not in a territory yet where she like needs to defend anybody.Yeah.So Kira's like I get paid not a lot of money.
25:58Oliver is a nightmare to me.So I am not going to like rush to his defense.But also this is like making the vibe really bad of you just like yelling at him and nowI'm not having fun.I'm going to like take a distraction approach.Right.She's like we should be having fun.Like the whole point in a job like this is that like you can kind of fuck around a little
26:20bit if you believe.Right.Makes sense.And so she's like I heard a really fun question the other day that we could all answer.And they're like OK.What.What.What do you need to say.
26:34Wait.So Kira is like I'm going to play this party game with everyone.Yeah.No no no no.I just feel like you already know that both of them do not play ball with this kind ofthing.What are you inviting.OK.
26:48What questions.She's so optimistic.Yeah.She's like what is the biggest crime that you think you could get away with.Bailey and Oliver both without missing a beat are like tax evasion.Wow.OK.They went in hot.
27:08Alex Kira's like tax evasion.Like of all the crimes you could choose tax evasion is the most boring one.Is this a me cute.Are they are Oliver and Bailey.Did they say tax evasion over tax evasion.And then did they look at each other and and she's sort of like strained her hair andwas like oh I've never heard anyone have that answer.OK.
27:56On her break Kira is like texting Hope and she's like I hate them.They're so boring.There is no drama.I need like intrigue.My job is like very like hands on.So I need to be like emotionally or mentally like interested in something else while I'mdoing it.Incredibly relatable to me.
28:17OK.Yes.For a few weeks things are like this.They're just like boring.The shop is slow.The drive through doesn't take enough time.So Kira has to end up doing those like terrible organizational projects that you have to dowhen you work minimum wage like restocking back syrups and like organizing straws and
28:35shit.Right.Like reef.She like even checks the receipt paper to be like is this running low something no onehas ever done before.She's so bored and she's so miserable and she's like I miss my old shift.Like I want to go back to the mornings.Maybe I should just quit college.
28:51This is terrible.I hate it here.OK.But then one Friday night a few weeks later things are like unreasonably busy.It starts off with a few like complicated orders that slow down the line and then there'slike a line of 10 cars in the drive through and then there's like a line of 15 cars inthe drive through.Right.
29:10And so it's just like building Bailey had warned her that she needed to like do the paycheckstuff for them.So she would be in the office and Kira is like fuck because she needs help and the onlyperson to help her is Oliver.Oh boy.OK.And so she gets on the headset and she's like Oliver.Hello.
29:32Things are getting really busy up here.Can you please come help me.There's no response.Where's Oliver.Kira is like whatever.Like this isn't my first rodeo.I can do this.She's like mad.
29:46Right.Uh huh.Uh huh.10 minutes later Oliver comes like strolling back in and curious like did you not hear mecalling for help over and over again over the intercom.And Oliver's like oh was it busy or something.And Kira's like yeah it was and Oliver's like well it seems fine now.Oliver.
30:07Oliver.Oliver.Oliver.OK.Kira's like yeah it's fine because I handled it.Can I ask a question.Please.Where did Oliver walk out of.
30:19From the back.From the back.Where Bailey was.Uh huh.Is this heading where I think it's heading.I didn't keep going.Kira's like were you on a break or something.Like where were you and Oliver's like yeah I was on a break and Kira's like that's fine.
30:33Like you're allowed to be on a break but like you should tell me when you're going to takea break so that I know where you are so that if I need help we can like work as a team.OK.Kira's texting Hope on her break right.She's like I hate him.Everything is awful.This is the worst day of my life.Hope is like I don't know should you like talk to Bailey about it.
30:51And Kira's like the thing is I'm like not a narc.I'm not trying to like blow up Oliver's life.I think like I'll talk to him and maybe that'll just fix it.Uh huh.OK.Right.So she's like be better to Oliver.But then the next week it happens again.
31:10OK.It's only ever 10 minutes so it's not the end of the world that things keep getting busyduring Oliver's break but he never keeps his head set on.OK.So she's texting Hope about it and Hope is like why doesn't Bailey just help you.And Kira's like you know what that's a good fucking question.And then she starts noticing it over a couple weeks when she's working shifts with Baileyand Oliver there are consistent 10 or 15 minute stretches sometimes when things are slow
31:43but sometimes when they are not that both Bailey and Oliver will be in the back roomand not responding to their headsets.Oh my God.I was just joking before but OK cool cool cool.Look at you.Yeah you just omniscient.Then she starts noticing that Bailey is like in an unusually good mood.She's like not using her stopwatches for breaks anymore or like making them do extra organizing tasks.
32:15And Kira is like darting her eyes between Bailey and Oliver and she's like hmm.It's happening.It's going down.Thoughts feelings.Do you think Kira should put this into her suitcase of secrets like what did she do withthis information.Oh I feel like if the boss is happier and letting things go and letting things slide like Idon't know like sure there's like rules about workplace relationships that to be aware of
32:46and whatnot but a part of me is like right now at least in this moment it's a littlebit win-win for everyone aside from that 10 minutes where she like gets slammed by herselflike this seems like maybe a great place for things to be for the moment.Yes that is literally exactly the conclusion Kira comes to.She's like you know the company has reared like very clear rules on the fact that youcan't date your co-workers like even at the same level but like one who cares and twono one is annoying me.I'm being left alone.
33:19I can do whatever I want out here.Yeah.Seems fine.Yeah.You take those 15 minutes and you live your life.Exactly.The next week though something happens.The cars are lining up in the drive-through and there are people inside the store.
33:38So she's having to work the window and the register and the espresso bar.It is a shit show and Kira is the only one out on the floor.So she's on the headset like help.Hello.Someone come help me.There is no response.She's like losing her mind.She's taking orders on the headset and over the counter.
33:59She's making drinks and she's dropping them off.She's taking money.It's like she's on a stationary bike that is chained to the ground and also the roomis on fire.She is losing it.Okay.Oh no.There is syrup on her face.
34:11She is covered in coffee grounds.Her visor has whipped cream on it.Her hands are like shaking.She's like I need help out here.No response.No response.Oh my God.Okay.
34:25Okay.What does she do?I feel like there's you go to the door and you give a strong knock and you givea chance for whatever monkey business is happening to conclude.I worry for Kira that she's going to go do a bargain and see things that she doesn'twant to see.So I'm going to say like if I were to give her advice in this moment, give a strongknock, a strong like stuff is happening out here.
34:54Let them gather themselves.And return to you.And return to that.That would be my piece of advice.Okay.Great advice.The next piece that you forgot is that someone has to stay on the floor.Oh, I feel.
35:08So she can't go back there.No.Okay.So she like, and the back room has like a ton of like shelving and shit because it's allthe stock.So it's not like she can just like peek her head in there and be like you two come outhere.So she does kind of do what you said, which is she goes near the back door, back room
35:26and like opens the door and is like you, someone needs to come out here and help me.Right.Is like yelling into the back room.Yeah.No one comes to help her.Oh, no.She's sprinting from the espresso machine to the drive-thru window to the cashier.There are little like steel milk steaming buckets everywhere.
35:42There are just like lines of syrup on the counter.The ground is like covered in chocolate.There's a roll of receipt paper like plastered to the floor.Kira is like out of breath.Her arms hurt and she's very, very mad.Rightfully so.My God.About 20 minutes later, the rush has calmed down and about five minutes after that outwalk
36:07Bailey and Oliver together.Oh, they're getting sloppy.Oh, they're getting sloppy.I feel like we're at a fork in the road in this story where either it is a romantictrist or are they engaging in tax evasion together?Did they figure out a grift together on this coffee shop and every break is like them secretlytaking a little off the top or cooking a box or something?Honestly, that is giving the two of them way too much credit for like the ability of intrigue
36:46that they have.Yeah, true, true, true.What is your like move here?You're Kira, you're standing in a destroyed national coffee chain and your boss and yourterrible co-worker have just deigned to return after a 20 minute break.I feel like my as a non-confrontational person, my move would probably be to take it on thechin and keep it moving.If I were a more confrontational person, this would be the perfect moment to deploy.
37:20I know what's going on here.I know that you take your breaks together and it is royally screwing me and perhapswe can continue this arrangement, but like not during the busy times anymore.I'm saying blackmail, go to blackmail.Yeah, you're saying straight to blackmail, like express train to Blackville land.Perhaps one could.I like that your two options were like as a non-confrontational person, I would do nothingbut the other option is to just set off a bomb that would ruin everyone.
37:57It's the way the mind works.I don't know.Kira is like, she's too mad to be like reasonable.She is furious.She's like, did you not hear me?Why were your headsets off?You abandoned me.And they're both like, what do you mean?
38:14And she's like, come fucking look.And they see the absolute disaster of the behind the counter zone.And they're like, oh, sorry, we must have missed that.And she's like, yeah, you must have missed it because I came to the door and yelledand neither of you came.Oh my God.And Bailey's like, we didn't hear you.And Kira's like, cool, I'm going home, have fun cleaning this up, bye.
38:41And she goes home.Good for Kira.Good for Kira.So she's like, this is a mess.I'm so fucking mad, but also this is like a little bit spicy.Yeah.A little spicy.So she pulls out her phone while she's in the front seat, like picking her music to
38:57drive home.And she sends a voice memo to a group chat that she has with Hope and another of theirfriends from the like morning shift, a teen named Aisha.Okay.Immediately.Aisha is like, wait, this happened to me last week with them.Okay.Okay.
39:14What happened to her also?Okay.Hope is like, oh my God, what?No way.She's like, this cannot be possible.Bailey hates bad co-workers and Oliver is like the worst co-worker that exists.And Aisha is like, lol, imagine having sex with Oliver.He probably doesn't even know where mouths are.
39:33And everyone is like, lol.Solid burn, Aisha.Solid burn.But obviously this is just suspicion, right?The group is now out for what every group chat wants confirmation.Of course.The group chat is like, what else could it be?They're like, right, they could be fucking, but she could also be giving him remedial lessons
39:54since he can't use the espresso machine.Oh, that's very optimistic.She could just be keeping him out of the way so he doesn't drop stuff.He could be being fired.God, I hope he's being fired.The next day, Kira comes into work and she's like, do you want to talk about last night to Bailey?And Bailey's like, what about last night?And Kira's like, what?
40:21And Bailey's like, don't worry about it.And Kira's like, okay, I assume that you were going to be really fucking mad because I stormed out in the middle of my shift.But sure, I'll take it.Fine.Bailey isn't mad.Bailey that whole night is like very nice to her.She helps her on the floor.No one abandons her.
40:40Kira is like, this is great.I love not being abandoned, but this is really bad for my confirmation of you maybe sleeping together, which is what I'm now in pursuit of.Right.Right.Okay.The next day, Aisha picks up a closing shift.She texts the group chat and she's like, you know, it took me a little bit to get out of the parking lot because I had to call my mom back or something.And before I left, I saw Oliver climbing into the front seat of Bailey's car.
41:09They left together.Hope is still like, that's not enough.Like their apartments are near each other.It could just be a ride home from work.But then the next day, hope during her mid shift is there with Oliver and Bailey as she watches Oliver place two fingers on to Bailey to get by.Something he never does.And Bailey like leans in to his touch.Oh my God.
41:41Oliver gets like switched to the register partway through his shift.And it's like, you know, when you work a register, how you have to like put in your number to open it.Oliver, of course, like does not ever remember his number.And Bailey's like, I can put it in for you.Don't worry, Oliver.Oh, they're not even being slick at this point.The group chat is like, this is the best day of our life.Elicit love affair between two people we don't like.
42:09Who cares if you're getting abandoned during your shift?Like this is it.That's amazing.Can I just say also, the way you described it, like the two finger moment tapping, it gives me the feeling of like at the end of the usual suspects.When he abandoned, sorry, if I'm spoiling it, if you've had enough time to see it.But when he, when he abandons the limp and you have that moment, it was him all along.Just cinematically, I'm imagining the two finger tap is just like, he knew.The full white screen.
42:46Yeah, it zooms in.And on top of all of his drama, which they're all loving, Bailey is still in a good mood, which means everyone's getting longer breaks.Everyone's doing the bare minimum.Everybody's leaving early, but getting paid for the whole shift.They're like, we love it.This is great.Everything would be perfect if Oliver were competent at his job at all.Right.
43:12But he's not.Right.On every shift, Oliver is creating some kind of havoc.He's dropping whole gallons of milk on the ground.He's handing customers the wrong drink.He's not cleaning off the steamer, so it's like all caked with milk.He's bumping into people.It is like literally untenable to work behind the bar with him.
43:35Oh man.Okay.Okay.So the group chat is like, we don't, we don't know what to do about this.What do you think that they should do?Oh man.This one's a harder call because it's like, it's sort of like six of one half a dozenof another.
43:53It's like, do you maintain the status quo and enjoy the benefits of everything?Or do you pursue some avenue to blow it up so that you don't have to work with Oliveranymore?Right.It sounds like he's a headache enough that I would go the route of trying to blow itup in some way.He would.I think so.
44:16It sounds like the benefits don't outweigh the cons.And that's the thing that like this front of a front made really clear is that likethe worst part of this job is dealing with customers.Like it's not any of the franticness.It's people coming in and being like, I asked for a half calf and this tastes like a fullcalf.Yeah.I don't know what to tell you.
44:36Like they taste the same.I mean, I don't think an extra break can make up for that being your like every minuteexperience if Oliver's working.The group chat in the meantime is like growing, right?They're like adding other people to the group chat.And everyone is like, nobody fucking snitch.We're having fun.Leave it.
45:04Like grow up, deal with Oliver.Just like get him out of your way.It'll be fucking fine.Are there people in the group chat who don't work with Oliver but are enjoying the benefitsof a happier Bailey?Extremely.Yes.Okay.
45:20And so that's why you have people.Oh my God.The levels.Couple weeks later, Kira is like on the drive through again.Hope is at the espresso machine.They're still on the midship.So Bailey hasn't come in yet.Kira is just like, I'm losing it.
45:34Like I had to work with Oliver yesterday.He was just an absolute nightmare.Like I don't know how long I can do this anymore.She's saying this into the headset, right?Because she's talking to Hope.And she's like, Oliver is just making me so crazy.He can't do his job.Whenever I think about him, I just want to vomit.
45:50And Hope is like, it is ridiculous.Like he's late today.I just don't know when he's going to get here.But I know that like when he gets here, he's going to make my life awful.And Kira is like, oh, I know.And Hope is like, it's just like it's even worse when Bailey is here.Like he just gets away with stuff and like even the green beansdon't get away with the kind of shit that he gets away with.
46:12And then they hear the shift manager's radio click on.No, no, no, no, no, no.It is Bailey.She has come in early for her shift.Bailey is like, I don't think I'm too hard on the green beans.And Kira and Hope are like, fuck.They're looking at each other in the front with like eyes just huge.No, no, no, no, no.
46:42As Bailey begins to destroy Oliver, she is saying way meaner thingsthan either of them said.She's like, he's incompetent.I don't even know if he's teachable.You know, I tried to help him learn to use the steamer machine last weekand he almost burnt my hand.Like on top of that, he doesn't even listen.She is just like on and on and on.
47:03Kira and Hope's eyes are like swimming pools.Oh my God.She's like overcompensating for getting caught is my theory.They're like, what the fuck?Like, what do you do with this?I don't.Oh, man.But well, do you know how they say sometimes that like the opposite of
47:27love isn't hate.It's indifference.Yeah.I think that's actually a quote from Frazier.You know, as the great prophet said.Yeah, as the philosopher Frazier Crane once said.To me, it's not surprising that she has access to big feelings about himif they are also carrying out a trist.
47:50Okay.To me, there's like something like, I don't know,something like a little bit confirming about her going off on him.Okay.So the group chat is like fully divided, right?Like Grand Canyon divided on what this means.Like half of it is like, they broke up.Oh, I didn't even consider.
48:11Okay.The other half is like, she's trying to cover her ass.Yeah.They are fighting the group chat.It's full of fighting.Okay.Oliver isn't on the night shift the next night or the night after that.But two nights later, he's at the front with Kira and Kira is like,
48:27it is time for me to ask about Bailey.And she's like, oh, you know, I was talking to Bailey the other day on my shiftand before she can even finish.Oliver is like, I don't want to talk about her.Huh.So Kira is like, hmm, something happened.But what feels a little reminiscent of how he got when he was talking about plum.Mm-hmm.
48:53Sure does.Only once in the next two weeks do they disappear together for 20 minutes.Oh man.But they seem like kind of upset when they return.Okay.Working with them has become even worse than before because they are fightingthe whole time.Kira cannot catch a break.
49:14Bailey is always yelling at Oliver and Oliver is still dropping things.And Kira is like, my life is so unfair.Like, I don't know what's going on.No one will tell me the gossip and I'm getting milk spilled on me all the time.And my boss is mad.It's a week of this.Just like misery.When on Friday, Bailey is carrying a giant bucket of mop water and Oliver backs into
49:40her, not looking where he's going and knocks the whole thing over.No.No, no, no.Oliver is apologizing, but Bailey is like, whatever, Oliver.This is, oh man.I worried about this for Kira.The flip side is when they break up, it was going to be hellish for everyone.Mm-hmm.
50:01So what is the group chat now thinks that they are they team break up now?The group chat is slowly shifting to team break up, but there are still people thatare like, I don't know, both of them are just so bland and weird that it is impossiblefor us to like read what's happening here.Yeah.Yeah.Right?Like why hasn't Bailey fired him?
50:23Right.If they've broken up.Right.I mean, there's part of me too that's like from what I've been told, they also seemperhaps too bland to carry on an act.Yes.To like go all in.Yes, exactly.
50:37Acting.And the sort of like, we're going to put on a ruse.Yes.And fool all these people.Like, oh man.So the next day Kira is working her mid shift.Hope and Bailey are there.It's super busy.
50:49So Bailey is working the espresso machine.Okay.They're working just like doing their thing.They have a fun playlist on everyone's having a good time when in walks Oliver.It is not his shift.He is an exercise clothes.He looks very sweaty and with him is a girl and she is very tall and blanky and she'swearing one of those exercise dresses.
51:13Okay.And the girl is like looking at the bulletin board listings.Kira is like basically wearing binoculars at this point, right?She is like a hundred percent tuned in.She's at the register.So she's like, well, it makes sense that this girl will go look at the bulletin board becauseBailey is right here at the espresso machine.Oh my God.
51:33Oliver comes up to the counter and he puts in his order.Kira is like, hi, how are you?And he's like, oh, we just went for a hike nearby.We just like wanted to swing by and grab a strings and Kira is like, oh, that's great.Like so happy for you.Good to see you in her head.She's like, one, there are no hikes near here.This is a downtown coffee shop to us.
51:57What kind of chess game is Oliver playing?I don't know.Kira like puts in his employee discount, right?She can see Bailey like stiffening on the machine this whole time this is happening,but her face is like full smile, right?Perfect customer service smile.Oliver is like, can I get this drink or whatever?And then he's like, babe, what do you want?
52:17Oliver, Oliver, Oliver, Oliver.The girl like comes trotting over and she's like, can I get this like multi shot drinkwith whip that has like 17 syrups in it, please?And Kira's like, yeah, of course you can.What's the name for the order?She says looking right at the girl.Oh, the girl says.Plum.
52:46First of all, a plus work Kira that is the kind of shit that is just like it's so subtlebut it's information gathering.It's so good.So like a plus work to her.Love that plum is back in the picture.Very here for that.So does it surprise me at all that this absolute C plus of a man was able torebound with some other girl?
53:10Like no, that does not surprise me.So like the audacity does surprise me though.I can't believe plum is back.Wait, did plum ever leave?Great question.So okay, so she says plum.Oliver is like shooting daggers with his eyes, right?Because he sees what she did by being like, what's the name?
53:33Kira's like, got it plum.She writes plum on the cup.In her headset.She can hear hope at the drive-thru be like, are you fucking kidding me?Plum, his ex-girlfriend plum.Plum who is not good at hiking plum.Meanwhile, Bailey is making her like extremely complicated drink and over theradio they hear Bailey be like, I cannot believe this.
53:59Kira is taking more orders.So she like misses a little bit what happens next.But apparently Bailey put the first drink on the counter and called Oliver'sname, not plums, and handed him his drink.And plum was like, oh my God, that's so weird.She knows your name.And Bailey was like, what?And plum was like, yeah, like how do you know his name?
54:21Like I gave you all my name.Does he come here a lot or something?And Bailey's like, no, baby, he works here.And plum's like, what?And Bailey's like, yeah, he's a barista.Like he's off today, but that's how I know him.And plum is like, you told me you were in med school.No, no.
54:42Oliver is like so mad.He's like steam coming out of his ears, glaring at Bailey.Bailey's like, oh no, oops, here's your drink.Goodbye.When Oliver go like storming out, everyone is like, what the fuck?What do you do?What would you like to do with this information that you have gathered?First of all, part of me is like, what did Oliver think was going to happen?
55:11Like he thought this was a brilliant power move.Yes.He thought he was flaunting plum in front of Bailey.No problem.If she doesn't even know that you work as a barista,why would you bring her into the lion's den with co-workers who don't like youfor varying degrees of like it's just.Yes.
55:31Oliver thought he was playing chess.He was playing checkers.Yeah.And he just like.He was playing like tic-tac-toe.He was not even close.No.No, no.
55:42OK, so swing and a miss Oliver.What does Kira do?I feel like as much as Bailey has been either a non-entity or a headache.There's part of me that's just like full team Bailey at this point.Like part of me is just like, you got burned.She did get burned.You got burned pretty bad.And also you handled it very like you did some expert moves handling it and handling your business.
56:07There is part of me that's like a little bit compassionate to Bailey at this moment.I'm wondering if it'll be like a unifying thing for them.Probably not.But that would be sort of my feeling, I think.Yeah.So Kira and Hope are kind of like, are you OK?Like do you need to take a break?We can handle the espresso machine.
56:27Even though it's a rush, it'll be fine.Yeah.And Bailey is like, I'm fine.I do not want to talk about this.OK.And they're like, OK.But in their hearts, they're like, no, terrible, awful.We must know.
56:40They get off their shift immediately.Kira and Hope are like sending voice memos into the group text with all the other employees.They're like, you will not believe what is fucking going on here.Everyone is like, it is time to become the FBI.All the coworkers are like Googling, right?It's exactly what you were talking about earlier.They're like pulling up tax things.They're like pulling up people's like residential addresses, right?
57:04They've got like plums, high schools, like Facebook group open, right?Like it's like a whole thing.Here, they find some extra information.They learn that Oliver told someone else in their group that Plum broke up with him.OK.Not that he broke up with Plum because she's bad at hiking.They scroll back on Plum's Instagram and they see like three weeks ago the side of Oliver's arm.I love this.
57:34I love this shit.OK, keep going.Yes.Yeah.And like someone's like, this is Oliver's arm and everyone's like, no, it's not.And then they're like cross referencing with his Instagram and they're like, yeah, yeah,this is the same watch, right?Like they like are doing, you know, like string on the wall.
57:50Yes.Yes.Yes.Love it.So they're like interesting.So he was with Plum three weeks ago.And two weeks ago is when things started getting weird between them.OK.
58:06The messages are coming in really quickly.Everyone is like yelling in the group text.A few people are saying like it just never made any sense to me that they were togetherin the first place.Uh-huh.One person is like, well, you know how we always get emails from corporate that no one readsand everyone's like, yeah.And they're like, look at this one from a couple of weeks ago and the one from a couple of weeks
58:26ago that no one read has a whole section about inter employee relationships.Did they try to go public?So together as a team, they come up with two theories that I now present to you.OK.The first is that Oliver broke up with Bailey to get back together with Plum.The second is that Bailey ended the affair because she was like afraid of losing herjob and or running a foul of corporate.Please weigh in on these theories.
58:58Tell me which one you think is right.Do you have another theory you'd like to add?So the first one is that he just broke up with her to get back with Plum.Yes.And that perhaps she then talked to corporate about their relationship.And that's why that email came through or something, some version of that.I'm going to say that this guy has been so dumb throughout and so like not calculatingin a way that makes any sense.
59:28I'm going to say he never broke up with Plum and was doing a double life kind of thing.And then I'm going to say Bailey ended it.OK.And then he got mad that he wasn't able to keep up the double ruse.And so he thought he would pull a power play and bring in Plum.That is my theory is that Plum was always in the picture.That doesn't fly in the face of any of the details, right?No.
59:55I think I think they've I don't think they broke up.That's a good theory.One disappointing thing about this gossip is that we don't know the right answer, butI do have one more piece for you.OK.OK.There is one more thing.OK.
01:00:10So this is like all lost in the dark, right?They're like it could be either of those things.Bailey is so fucking private that she won't tell anyone.All of her is now like dating Plum.He like transfers stores so we can't get any more information out of him.OK.So following him on Instagram, people start to like kind of come to where you came fromwhere they're like it seems like maybe they were on a break or like she was just not around
01:00:35as much, but like they never really were fully broken up.Maybe.Uh-huh.There's one more thing.Oh, no.Couple months later, Aisha is scrolling on her TikTok.And you know how sometimes when you're on your for you page, it'll show you someone who'slike in your contacts, but you don't follow.
01:00:55So it has a little like from your contacts thing.Aisha sees this video and immediately sends it to the group chat because the video wasposted by Bailey.It is tagged for the corporate national competition to represent the company on TikTok.The winner of which the group chat learns from Googling would have gotten to go to ahigher level of managerial training for free.Huh.OK.
01:01:24It is clearly filmed in the back room.The video is edited within like an inch of its life, but not in a cool way, right?It's edited with like, you know, those sunglasses that come down from the ceiling and like landon your face.There's like a fire border around the edge.Uh-huh.It like rapidly switches angles, right?It's like black and white.
01:01:46Now it's blue monochrome.It's full color.OK.The caption for the video, in addition to being like, please select me for this managerialtraining, blah, blah, blah.Credits Oliver with video editing.Oh, no.Wait, so mine.
01:02:06Could it have been this video the whole time?I know.Is it actually that they are so truly blanched that they were quietly filming every timethey were taking those breaks and that's all it was?Oh, no.I mean, like, you know that thing where it's like the simplest answer is probably theright answer?Uh-huh.
01:02:26But in this scenario, is the simplest answer the video or is the simplest answer theywere fucking?I don't know.I mean, there's so like, there is an aspect of this that they were so especially like,I guess I'm talking about Bailey here.She was so rigid and so within the box that this was kind of like out of left field forher.It wouldn't explain why she got so happy though, why they, unless she like loves filming
01:02:52TikToks.That's her happy place.Unless she discovered her new passion.Yeah.Yeah.I'm, yeah, I do see the argument for maybe it's the bland answer.But I, yeah, I agree with you that perhaps the romance is still likely and they werejust filming the TikToks as a bonus.
01:03:15Unfortunately, this is the end of the gossip.Like we have not, there is not an update yet.Our friend of a friend is like on it, I have been told, but we still don't know.We live in a little bit of gossip mystery.Do we know how Bailey has been since all of this as a manager?We know that she like has been a little calmer.Okay.Still.
01:03:42Like she's still, she no longer is like stop watching people's breaks.She never went back to that.Okay.So she's like a little softer.She's a little more human that would also speak to like something really happening.Yes.And also she didn't fire all of her.Right.
01:04:02Oh, as in, as a by the book person, maybe she was afraid of a retaliation.Yeah.So it could be retaliation, right?It could be that like she was just like, Oh, I like him, so I won't fire him.Right.Oh, Bailey.Here's a, here's the thing you should know about me is like I almost always, or likein a lot of scenarios, end up rooting for the wrong person.
01:04:26And I have been told this that like,I don't think Bailey is necessarily the wrong person.She's not the wrong person.I guess what I'm saying is like, I'm so team Bailey.You did come in like immediately, like I'm on team Bailey, which is interesting.You were like this poor, terrible manager who just like has no interests.I, what can I say?I felt a lot for Bailey.
01:04:50She wants love.And now she's been, she's been through some shit, you know?I know.And, and anyone who has to date an Oliver deserves compassion.That is so true.Absolutely true.Tobin, thank you so much for coming on to normal gossip.It was a joy to have you.
01:05:07Thank you.I had the most fun.Thank you for listening to normal gossip.If you have a gossip story to share with us,email us at normal gossip at defector.com,or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 gossip.If you love this podcast and want us to keep making it,become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com.
01:05:33You can follow me on all social media and at McKinney-Kelsey.This podcast was produced by Alex Sujan Laughlin.Defector's Projects Editor is Justin Ellis.Our Editor-in-Chief is Tom Leigh.Thanks to the rest of the Defector staff.Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber based media company.I'm Kelsey McKinney, and remember, you did not hear this from me.Radio Tapia
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