Normal Gossip - S2 Ep8: Conflict Archaeology with Julia Furlan

Episode Date: July 6, 2022

Julia Furlan joins us for a pandemic wedding saga. You can support Normal Gossip directly bybuying merch or becoming a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend at supportnormalgossip.com. Episode transcript here. Follow the show on Instagram @normalgossip, and if you have gossip, email us at [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney (@mckinneykelsey) and produced by Alex Sujong Laughlin (@alexlaughs). 

Hey, Kelsey McKinney here. I'm excited to share that our fellow radio-topia show, The Stoop, is back with a new season. The Stoop is an award-winning podcast that tells stories from across the Black diaspora. Journalists Lila Day and Hana Baba dig deep into Black life through reporting, conversations, and personal storytelling to talk about things

that aren't always shared in the open. I can't wait for their takes on the word auntie or being called out for not being able to speak the languages of your culture. In season nine, there's also a very intimate conversation with the mom and daughter about succession planning. They get into Black psychedelic culture and so much more. The Stoop, it's where you let your guard down

and just get real. Every other Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts and follow them on Instagram at atthestooppodcast. There were so many moments that this went wrong and like one of them was 12 years before this happened. Hello, my little gossip fiends, and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney and in each episode of this podcast,

we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Welcome to the season two finale. Today's episode is going to be the last episode for season two, which means we have a couple of bits of business to take care of before Alex and I go on our break so that we will recover and be able to continue making you really good episodes.

The first bit of business is because this is the season finale, that means it is all most time for the bonus episode. This season's bonus episode, as you may remember, if you've been paying attention, is about niche community drama stories. What we are looking for are stories about your dog park group, your pet store drama, your roller derby adventures, anything that is like a niche specific community.

Those are the kind of stories we're looking for for this listener episode. And the way that we prefer to receive those stories is with your beautiful voices attached. Please remember that if you do not want to use your actual voice, Alex knows how to do Hollywood magic and she will change it. The way you can send those to us is by calling in on the voice

line, which is 2679Gossip. Please remember, the voice line will cut you off after three minutes. Just keep calling back. Or you can save it as a voice member on your phone and email it to us at normal gossip at defector.com. That's business one. Business two is that, as I have said,

we are about to go on a break again. You all get very sad when we go on breaks, even though it is the only time that Alex and I get to sleep through the night. Unlike the first season's break between seasons one and two, in this season's break, there are gossip episodes that you can have. But those are the subscriber only episodes.

So there's already one for June. If you subscribe now, you'll get that one. And the one for July comes out this Friday. So like two days from now, you can have two Gossips this week if you want. There will be more bonus episodes for subscribers only. The one this week is about a wedding gone awry. So that's very exciting for all of you.

And you can get those episodes by subscribing at the friend of a friend level. Or you can subscribe at one level higher at the friend level. And you can also be entered in a pool to be our secret guest for these episodes. At that level, you'll also get added to our close friends circle on Instagram, which is where we are doing a lot of drama and also discussions

about the episodes. That's very fun. You can, where do you subscribe? Let's see, you subscribe at supportnormalgossip.com. Normal Gossip is a part of Defector Media, which is a subscriber based media company. So we can only do what we do here because of your subscriptions.

Thank you so much to everyone who's already become a friend and a friend of a friend. We will see you on the bonus episode in two days. Very exciting. Okay, no more business. Today I have with me, Julia Frilan. She's an independent podcasting consultant, a podcast host, and a professor at the new school.

Sounds like you're tired. Most recently, she hosted a series of podcasts for NPR, and she is currently executive producing Death, Sex, and Money. She's also hosting a series for Vox Conversations with Even Better that will be out in August. And you can find her on Twitter at atJuliusTMI. Julia, welcome. Wow, what an intro.

Thank you so much, Kelsey. It is wonderful to be here. I cannot tell you how excited I am. I am thrilled that you're here. I think we're gonna have a lot of fun today. I think the two of us have a good energy. We're just vibing. Yes, just vibing. It's gonna be great.

Do you wanna start off with the most classic question of all and tell me what your relationship is to gossip? I have been thinking about this for so long. I'm so excited that I get to say it. I've been telling it to my phone during the episodes. Okay. To practice. To practice. And also just because,

just because I think it's important to talk back to your podcast. It's good to talk back to the podcast, yeah. Yeah, how would you know that I'm your friend if I wasn't like literally staring at my phone being like, no, I disagree. Anyway, my relationship to gossip is that it is a way to deconstruct power.

Okay. And I find it very powerful when people create a whisper network and use gossip as a power element. So I feel like I really enjoy professional gossip. Yes. Like I love to hear about which jobs are working. I love to, I love to like talk to people. Yeah. I mean, I have very few nemesis.

Oh, interesting. But I have some, very few. You can count them on one hand. A short but bolded list. Yes. Of people who have wronged me. But I find gossip to be this thing that like, it has this sort of negative connotation. And I would like to encourage everyone

to look truly at themselves and ask themselves if they don't quote unquote, don't like gossip, are they being honest with themselves? Because I think a lot of people pretend that they don't like gossip and that they don't traffic in gossip, but they actually do. I have a question for you about something you said earlier.

What do you mean by deconstructing power? I mean that it's like the ultimate way to get at the big powerful people, especially professionally, if they have power over your money and most of your time, if you are able to talk to other people, like unions are a great example of the collective rising up

and sort of like fighting power. I feel like we don't think enough and we don't make explicit enough power relationships. And if we did that more, then we would realize that gossip is actually incredibly powerful, but it has to be on the collective level. It works from the least powerful to the most powerful.

If you're the boss and you're gossiping, that is not doing anything for you, you're just actually, yeah. Bad, bad, bad, yeah. But if you are the interns, it's important because the thing is that like, especially in professional environments, information is power,

especially if you don't have as much money or a title or managerial power, like information is a really important source of power. Yes. We talk about this a lot in Alex's special Scorpio Hour about how she just holds secrets inside her body to use as AMO later. And that is kind of what you're saying,

is that like you can gain power by understanding what the people above you are doing at the end, telling your friends. Yes, exactly. But I do want to like put a caveat here, which is that like fifth graders should not be, if you are listening to this and you are in fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth,

10th or 11th or 12th grade, you're not ready yet. You can't do that. Because I do feel like- You're not ready yet. The worst person I ever was was when I was like using gossip for evil when I was trying to be powerful in middle school. Yeah, you can certainly use gossip for evil,

which is like, I think that's the complicated thing about it, right? Is that like there's a benefit to demonizing gossip because I think anyone who moves in gossip and uses it a lot or gossips with their friends a lot knows that you can be evil with it. Oh yeah. So it's easy for people to say this is evil

because you're like, ooh, maybe it might be. Yeah. It's also not evil, which is what's complicated. Yeah. And also I think that oftentimes really good gossip, like a really good gossip story is just as powerful if you don't know who it is. So like oftentimes, if there's a wild thing

that happens to someone, my first instinct, if I want to tell someone, is to tell someone who lives in like a different country who doesn't know this person at all, who is like completely removed. Removed. Outside of the gossip network. Completely outside of it.

I mean, clearly we also believe that. So that's the whole premise of the module. The structure of your show. So hit the nail on the head right there. That was my idea. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. So who is that?

Do you have like a go-to person for when you're sharing your good gossip? Like really wild stories? Yes, I do. I have a group of friends from high school. And they are like so interesting and so wonderful. And like, I feel like because they're high school friends, they don't care about like the inner workings

of fucking media in New York City. You know, like they don't care. But they love me, so they will be interested in me. Yeah, okay. Today's drama is about a big group of friends. Can you tell me a little bit about like, not necessarily your group of friends, but like how you think big groups function,

how gossip with people who have, maybe we're friends by proximity in the past and are just stuck together still, how that works? I think that the like equality of the group chat, like the equality of the blue text bubble, like the way that it levels all of the friends, regardless of what their like constellation of hierarchy is, it can open lots of doors,

but it can also uplift people that you're like, who is this person? This is not okay, you know? So I think it's important for a solid group chat to be not too big. How big is too big? I think six, seven is probably my limit. I think that like, if there are 14 people on a group text,

it's getting unwieldy and it's gonna be really tough, you know? Yeah. Okay, are you ready? Should we get into it? I cannot wait. I have goosebumps, literal goosebumps. Today's gossip is about a big group of friends, okay?

Malcolm is in his mid 30s, he lives in the same city where he grew up and his friend group consists of 20 people who all went to high school and college together and ended up in the same town. 20 people? 20 people. Yikes, so brutal.

We've already been over this, so we don't even have to get into it. Malcolm like grew up with all of these people and he does genuinely like them, right? Like we're not in a situation where it's like he hates all of his friends, he does like them. Good. For example, his favorite friend is Walt.

Walt has been his best friend since second grade and Walt is also in this group, okay? Okay, great. It's important to know that this is a group bound mainly by proximity in that like, you know, proximity is a very powerful thing. I'm gonna tell you an anecdote that's very important to me now.

When I was in college, I had a sociology professor who told me that when you were in elementary school, it is extremely likely that your crush had a last name very similar to your last name in the alphabet. And that is because you are seated alphabetically. Proximity can convince you that you like someone that maybe you don't actually like that much.

I say, okay, okay. So this group has like an outer circle and an inner circle as every group does. Malcolm is on the inner circle. But everyone on the outer circle is like kind of in this group because they're watching the drama that's happening on the inner circle. Oh my God.

Wow. Almost all of this drama concerns a girl named Nora. Nora. To start at the beginning of this story, we must travel back in time. Okay, so we are now in the Obama era. It's like Katy Perry's teenage dream on this radio for Moko is still like the old formula.

Like everyone's just downloading Snapchat. That's where we are. Okay. Great, got it. Hope and change. Hope and change. Nora did not go to school with any of these people. What?

Nora got observed into this group because about 14 years ago, Malcolm went on two dates with her while he was in a different city for work. Okay, so he like flew to some other city, met Nora, went on two dates with her. They hit it off like really well and they kept like texting when he got back home.

Malcolm does not think that they were serious enough that it made sense for Nora to move across the country after those two dates, but she did it anyway. No, Nora, half of your name is the word no. No. No. Okay, like they two dates, right? Like they weren't even exclusive.

Like Nora's just like, I'm here. What's up? No. Malcolm is like a little bit of a commitment foe, but so you can imagine that this did not go well. Malcolm was like, I hate this. And Malcolm is very confrontational. This is like important to know about him, right?

Like he's not the kind of guy who's gonna like tell other people if he has a problem with you, he's gonna tell you. Okay, well, the direct, you know. Direct, not in a mean way, but it's like Nora moved to the city and he's like, listen, I do not like you enough for you to be moving across the country for me.

Like I don't want to continue dating you because I'm like confused about what's happening here. Okay. Can I have a question? She was moving there to be in his house? No. To with him? Okay, okay. You know, it's one of those situations where she's like,

oh, I moved for work. Oh, I moved for work. I work remotely. Yeah, exactly. I work in my apartment, which just happens to be down the street from where you live. Oh, oops.

Sorry. Okay, okay. Got you, got you. So that is Nora's line of like, that's our party line when he breaks up with her, right? She's like, I didn't move here for you. That's fine. But Malcolm is like, I do not believe her, right?

He's like, I'm pretty sure she moved here for me, but whatever. Oh my God. Okay. Okay, Malcolm. A couple months after Malcolm and Nora break up, Walt, Malcolm's best friends in second grade and Malcolm go out for drinks.

Okay. Walt is Malcolm's opposite. He's tall and Malcolm isn't. He's broader than Malcolm is. He's the quiet one and Malcolm is always yelling. Malcolm got straight A's through college. Walt didn't, right? Walt is non-confrontational to like the nth degree.

And obviously they are like buoying each other their entire friendship, right? Oh God. Yeah, they're like, it's like a classic codependent relationship. There's like, they're like, they have an attachment thing. They're really enmeshed.

Exactly. So they sit down at the bar, right? They're like getting their little like weekly drinks or whatever. And Malcolm, because this guy has been his best friend since second grade is like, Walt, what's wrong? Right? Because Walt is like being really weird

and like, you know, not saying a lot. And Walt's like, nothing, nothing's wrong. And Malcolm's like, Walt, we have been friends for a million years. Clearly is something is wrong. And Walt is like, okay, I need to tell you something. Oh God. And Malcolm's like, yeah, no shit.

Like from the minute I walked in here, it was clear that you needed to tell me something. Tell me. And Walt's like, here's the thing. I have a really big crush on Nora. I ran into her at a bar on Saturday and like, I didn't do anything. She didn't do anything.

But like, I really think that I'm into her. And like, would it upset you if I asked her out? Oh God. Oh God. How do you think Malcolm should handle this situation? Oh God. I mean, okay, here's the thing. If Malcolm feels yuck-o about Nora,

it's a hard one. It's a really tough one for it to go to that next. Like, if you don't want Nora for you, you don't want Nora for Lil Walty, you know? Yeah, you're like my best friend, Walt. Yeah. And also like, we haven't heard a lot about Nora, but like, she sounds like a bold lady.

And Walt, he seems like... He's a little baby. Not to infantilize him, or I deeply respect everyone so far. Anyway. Okay. Malcolm though, okay. So Malcolm like, kind of agrees with you, right?

Like he's like, I do not like this girl. But he's also like, you know, I only went on two dates with her. Two dates. I went on two dates with her. What gave me the yuck, she says, is that she moved here for work, right? I don't believe her, but it could be true, right?

It could be true. Also like, you never know the day of tomorrow. We say that in Brazil. Like, you never know what tomorrow is gonna bring. Two dates is not a lot of information to go on. Exactly. So Malcolm is like, whatever. Like, I dated this girl for one second.

If you want to date her, like, go for it, man. Mm-hmm. And it's still hope and change. It's still 2014. Yes. Okay. And we have hope. So.

Or maybe they had hope. Okay. Not forever. Okay. At first, this seems actually kind of good, right? Like the relationship seems good. Walt seems a lot happier. Like they're getting along really well, which we love.

But they like do that play fighting in front of other people that feels like it's actual fighting. Oh. And so everyone is kind of like, I don't know about that. Right? Play fighting. Like, you're so ugly. Yes.

Yes. Like picking at each other in public. So everyone's a little skeptical of Walt and Nora, right? They're like, Malcolm broke up with her. And also they do this play fighting that we don't not like. But Walt is like the kind of guy who just like doesn't believe in himself. He like had a bad time in high school.

He didn't have the grades to go to college. He just like got a part time job in retail. And he just like beats himself up about it, right? Like no matter what anyone else says, they're like, Walt, lots of idiots go to college. Like it's fine. Walt does not believe this about himself, right? That's, you can't get around that stuff.

If somebody doesn't believe in themselves, it's really hard. And I've been, you know, we've, I think a lot of people have been that person, you know? Yes. So the one thing that everyone is like, maybe Nora is good. Is that Nora very quickly in their relationship helps Walt navigate like how to get into community college. Okay.

And he like goes to one for two years. They're dating this whole time. Two years into the relationship. Two years? Yep. We're going forward in time. Great. Two years into the relationship. They're like still dating.

Nora helps him transfer to like the big state school that everyone else went to. He like graduates in three and a half years. Everyone's like, we love Walt, right? So proud of him. Yeah. Right before Walt graduates, a job at Malcolm's company opens up and he's like, my buddy, my dude, you should apply.

Yeah. Walt, through the miracle of nepotism, gets the job. So now, Walt and Malcolm, two best friends, are in some like tech adjacent job where they have a lot of snacks and are happy. Okay. Okay. That's, you know, listen, that's how the system works. And that is why we need to use gossip to dismantle it.

But yes, also. Yes. How are you feeling at this point? Let's do a little bit of a check-in. Two cis men relying on, who I assume is a cis woman, to like coach them through their difficult times and then ending up just fine at a tech company. Wow. You know, I feel like I've heard this story before, but here's how I feel.

I want the best for all of the people in this story. Yes. I want to know if Walt is really checking in with himself about what he wants and how he's doing it. Because that kind of thing where it's like someone, if someone sees you and is like, I'm going to do a fixer-upper on this person, it's a really bad dynamic.

Right. And so the thing we did hear from like the people we got this gossip from, whom I will not specify their relationship to these people, is that they said that, you know, it was really just like he needed a push, right? So it's like, it's not that she like fixed him up as much as she came in and was like, you really want to do this. I believe in you. Let me help you.

Okay. So she's not like writing his college application. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. She's saying like, let's get on the schedule. Let's do it. Okay. Good. Okay. Exactly. Okay. And this is like the one positive thing that every one of this friend group has to say about Nora. Is that she's very supportive of Walt.

Question, is she still doing the play-finding? Yes. Okay. And thank you so much for asking. Now we're going to build out Nora a little bit. We're going to talk about her character. Oh God, Nora. She is the kind of person who cheats at every single game. Like once she went to a baby shower

for someone on the outer circle of this group and they played a game where you got blindfolded and then you had to dress a baby doll, right? Like in a diaper and it's closed and whatever and Nora cheated at it. Oh my God. What is, wow, there's something, there's something going on with Nora. And she's like the kind of woman who like is pretty enough

to always get things for free. And our friend of a friend specifically told us she has never paid for Reed in her life. She's from a family of Wiccans. And she's like one of those artistic girls that never seems to be working, right? Wait, she doesn't have a job? It's not that she, well, she doesn't have like a job

where you go to an office, right? But it's like, it's not that she doesn't have a job. It's that she's like, oh, I'm just making my art and everyone's like, where? Like we don't see it. I see, I see. So she has family money. Ding, ding, ding.

The only thing anyone in this friend group can understand how Nora is making money is that she's incredibly good at calligraphy, like very good at it. So she like- Okay, you can make a lot of money doing that. Yeah, okay. So she's doing like people's wedding invitations, right?

But it's like three people or whatever it's like. Exactly. You're like, hey, the math isn't adding up here. Yes, and the downside of it is that she then is the kind of person who's like, oh, you're having a party, let me do the invites for it. Okay. Oh, God, wait.

And then it takes her like forever, right? Wait, and then they have to pay for it? Sometimes, yes, sometimes no, right? So she just is like, she's this kind of, right? It's like just kind of an exhausting person in general. Okay, okay, I feel, I'm walking alongside you. I still, Nora, Nora. Let's go.

Nora, Nora. None of this is the real drama. This is all the drama. Here we go. Now we're in the real drama. The drama is that the minute Walt graduates, Nora becomes obsessed with getting engaged. Oh, dear.

Oh, God. Yes. First, Walt tells her, he's like, I want to get a promotion at work before we get engaged. Okay, okay. Around how old are these people when this is happening? Ooh. I mean, it doesn't super matter.

I want to say like late, mid-20s, right? So probably like 20, 29. Okay, okay. So Walt doesn't, like it takes Walt a little while to get his promotion. So Nora complains for a couple of years. Couple of years. Then Walt says he wants to get a job

where he can become debt-free before he's engaged, a valiant goal. But that also takes a couple of years. This whole time, Nora is complaining to everyone. No. Yeah, Walt doesn't, wait, okay. So Walt is complaining to everyone in inner and outer circles of this group.

No, no, no, Nora is complaining to everyone. Nora is complaining. Walt is not proposing. Walt is doing passive resistance. Got it, got it, got it. Walt is just like, I don't want to get engaged until I simply have enough money to buy a house in cash. And also we've had three dogs that have lived and died entire lives.

And also we, you know what I'm saying? Oh my God, Nora, what is she doing? He's just like putting it off, putting it off, putting it off, right? Okay. Nora is like furious and telling literally everyone who will listen. So this is like also part of the problem, right?

Is she also telling Walt? Yes. Like they're, okay. They're fighting about it. Yes, they're fighting about it constantly where she's like, why won't you propose? And he's like, well, we don't own a house with a marble staircase yet, so I can't.

Oh, sure, sure, obviously, obviously. I will always wanted, I wanted to have a trench coat that had an umbrella in it. So until I have that, I can't possibly get married. Until I have three children inside a trench coat, we can not get married. Exactly, exactly. But this is like such a classic sort of setup.

I have empathy for both of them at this point. But okay. Okay, lay it on me. One of this drama does Malcolm here firsthand. Like Walt does not tell him anything about this. Walt needs some better communication skills. He hears it from one of his friends, Grace, who is like on the outside circle

and is like exhausted by this. Grace and Nora have had like a very tumultuous relationship ever since Nora found out that Grace had a movie night with some of the people in the outer circle that Nora wasn't invited to. Oh my God. So Malcolm is like a little bit. He's like, I don't trust Grace's intel

because she hates Nora, right? Fair, fair, fair. But other people are like telling Malcolm the same thing. And Grace tells Malcolm over a period of many years that Nora is talking to everyone about the fact that Walt has not proposed. Geez. Yes.

Like so many years that many members of this group have gotten engaged and married in the time that they've been dating. Oh boy. Oh boy. Well, Walt is speaking without speaking, you know? Walt is really saying his piece without saying a single word.

Yes. If you are bullying your partner into proposing to you, you should probably not do that. But that's just my opinion. Okay, so she's just so jealous. She's like super jealous of everyone who gets engaged, because she's like, when these people are getting engaged in a group,

she's like, why not me, right? And someone in the group gets engaged and she gets engaged with the exact same ring, that blue sapphire with the diamonds around it that Kate Middleton has. Oh my God. Okay, this is a friend of a group. Nora always wanted the blue sapphires.

Got it. Okay, this is, I mean, I can already tell this is going on the like, we're on the roller coaster to Petty. It's like every single thing on the way down is like, and there was a ribbon and a hat and blah, blah, blah. Okay, keep going. So Nora thinks that she's like,

totally justified in this, right? Yeah. And every time Walt is not with the friend group, she's like ranting about like, she's like, I'm gonna give him one more chance, right? They have, we are now at a point in the story where they have been together for 12 years. Oh, babe.

Oh, 12 years. I feel like this is, like, it's like a, it's like something that was alive that is dead now. Like, it's like, I mean, people have a lot of different kinds of relationships. They don't have to get married at any point. Like, that's fine. It's the rancid hatred of your partner.

Yeah, yeah. That like, I don't think that stuff keeps very well, you know, like, I don't think that keeps outside the fridge for 12 years. Yeah, bitterness that your partner doesn't do well for nine years. I highly, highly recommend, yeah, I highly recommend not doing a real long fester.

It's a real bad way to run a relationship. Nora is doing what I personally call the math. The math is a very bad thing to do. The math is when like, instead of talking and asking yourself whether you like someone or whether they make you happy or whether you want them to do things for you, you do the math.

Yep, it's the math of like, yeah. The math for Nora goes like this. Oh. Well, we've been together for 12 years. That's so long. I'll never be able to date someone else for that long. Plus, I'm 32, so let's say I broke up with him. Then I'm single, right?

I have to start dating. Let's say at the very earliest, I find someone to fall in love with in six months. That means we can't get engaged for six more months. So then I'll be 33. Then we'll need what, a year to plan a wedding? Then I'll be 34. And I want to be married for a couple of years

before I have kids. And by that point, I'll be what, 36, 37? No, it's better for me to just stay here in this relationship that I complain about all the time than to do that. Oh, math is not your strong suit, Nora. This is not good for you. I just feel like this is such a specific kind of thing

that is actually, if any of you listeners have done the math, you know what this is. You know how it feels. And it is a math of desperation. Yes. Oh, God. Oh, no, no, no. Anyway, I've done some math myself.

I don't know if you can tell by my very visceral reaction. The thing about the math is most people do it. It's a common game to play. But the problem is that the math isn't about your partner at all. No, no. And it's also like, yeah, it's a made up thing. It's a made up thing.

It's fake, yes. Yeah, and it's also, it's like, you're not engaging with the truth of what you're dealing with. The math is like, you think that you're doing a solution, but babe, you're not solving anything by doing this math. The thing on the other side of this equals sign is you're 38 with a baby married to someone you don't like. I know.

Or the math on the other side of this equals sign is that you're 40 and married to someone that you do like with a baby from a different person. That's not this, not little Walty baby, who definitely doesn't, Walty knows how to do math, man. Come on. He went to college. He went to college.

But they don't teach you math. Yeah, I mean, listen, I would run. Math is not something I'm very good at, but emotional math I'm very good at. And I got to say this equation isn't adding up. Mic drop. Okay, sorry. Finally, in the fall of 2019, Walt proposes.

No. Walt, what are you doing, buddy? Everyone in the friend group is like big sigh of relief on the inhale. We're all saying yikes. No. No. No.

Yep. The first thing Walt and Nora do is add everyone who's invited to the wedding to a Facebook group. Oh, wow. This is how they decide that they're gonna communicate about the wedding. In 2019?

No. In 2019? No. And you work in tech, buddy. No. Yes. Oh dear, this is gonna be. One cute thing is that Walt asked Malcolm to be his best man,

which is nice. Always. Of course. Of course, that's so sweet. That's so sweet, except for Walt, ask him to be there for you emotionally also, please. Walt, ask him to do one inch of emotional labor, just a little bit.

Yeah, yeah, okay. Okay, the Facebook group of wedding invitees, as you might imagine, is full of chaos. Oh God. The first thing that happens is a random girl who none of the people in this friendship know, posts about how she wasn't immediately asked to be made of honor,

and quits the group. That's the first thing. Oh my God. Wow, okay, okay. Okay, Nora sets a date for June. Theoretically, this should be fine, except that she picked the one weekend of the year where the whole friend group was supposed to be

at some kind of high school reunion. What? What? Nora is full of chaos. Yes. Everyone in the friend group is like, did she do this on purpose? Yeah.

And Nora's like, no, no, it was just a weekend that was free. But there are at least 50 weekends in a year, 52, right? Sorry. Yes, at least 50 weekends. At least 50, at least less than, yeah, mm-hmm. Yep, there's 50 weekends. So that's the first problem with her date. The second problem with her date is that it's June of 2020,

and because of the global pandemic. Oh my God. Oh my God. You cannot get married. Oh, Nora. No, no, no. So Walt is like, well, let's just go to city hall and get married.

Like you've wanted to be married for all this time, like let's do it. And Nora is like, absolutely not. Like I have waited 12 years. I want a fucking wedding. Oh my God, Nora. But you can't have a giant wedding in June, 2020. Like it's not safe.

There's no vaccine. They post in the Facebook group, they're like, we are postponing the wedding until June of 2021, banking on the fact that the vaccine will be done by then. Oh God. Oh God. Oh no, okay.

For the year that everyone is at home, Nora is just posting constantly. Like she's posting about how hard it is to have her wedding rescheduled. Complaining? Yes, she's posting about how her friends and Walt aren't doing enough to like support the wedding and how they aren't like doing enough things.

Oh God. Everyone is like, ma'am, this wedding is in 18 months. We have plenty of time to do this. Yeah, and it's not good to complain about the person that you're going to get married and all of the people. Like the whole point of getting married is being like enshrined in love and encircled by love. Yeah, like, yeah.

This is not- At least live. It's a different group chat. She needs like a different place where she can talk about this stuff. This is not appropriate. Wrong audience, exactly. So one day in the fall of 2020,

so now it's like we've passed the original dates, fall of 2020, this friend group is having, they're like basically in a pod together, right? They're having like an outdoor barbecue. Okay. So Malcolm is trying to talk to Grace about this because he's like, Grace hates Nora. I don't want to talk shit about Nora.

Grace, did you see what was in the Facebook group? And Grace is like, what? They go to check and Grace has been removed from the Facebook group. Whoa. She's like, that's so weird. There must be some mistake. Right, right.

So Malcolm asks Walt, right? He's like, what's up? Like I was talking to Grace about the wedding. She says she's not in the Facebook group anymore. And Walt is like, well, you know, we needed to narrow the guest list because of the pandemic. And Nora said that I had to cut some of my friends too. Fair.

And Malcolm is like, fine, but why did you cut Grace? And Walt's like, I cut a ton of people. And Malcolm's like, Walt, did you tell them? Oh no. And Walt's like, I mean, I removed them from the Facebook group. Oh my God. This is why Walt, way back during Obama years,

needed to learn some communication skills. Yes. Malcolm being like the first good friend he's been is like, Walt, that is not how this works. Like you need to tell everyone that you cut from the Facebook group that they can't come to the wedding because you have to narrow the guest list.

No one will be mad at you. Just simply tell people. Just say it. No one even wants to go and celebrate your love because it is so toxic and poisonous. Yes. Okay, we are now fast forwarding to May. We are a month before the wedding.

Oh, I can only imagine the boiling point that this has reached. Like I just feel like there is so much more. Yeah, we went from a simmer to a boil. It's like, it's going to boil over. In May, Walt and Nora posed to the group, Facebook page, and they're like, we will not be requiring masks at the wedding, but we will be requiring vaccinations.

Their argument for this is like the wedding will be outside. This is before Delta. And they're like. Yeah, that's why I was like June 2021. They're like, everyone is vaccinated. It should be fine. It seems okay. A couple of people respond to this.

And one is like, I have a toddler. I can't come, right? Fair. One is like, I can't come because I'm immunocompromised, right? All of these are fair. One is like, can you livestream the wedding since like I can't come for this?

And Nora is like, absolutely not. Sorry. She removes all of these people from the Facebook group. Oh my God. Facebook is not the place for this to be going down. I just like can't get over the fact this is the wrong vessel. This is the wrong way to communicate

any wedding information. Anyway, okay, okay, okay. So I think this is kind of fine, right? They're like, here's what the wedding's gonna be like. Make your own disappointments. That's important. That's great. Yeah, okay.

See communication, Nora must have done that. Yeah, the problem is that Walt is telling Malcolm all the time that he is deeply uncomfortable with this aspect of the wedding because he's a people pleaser and because he thinks people should mask. Oh my God. But he's not telling Nora?

Oh my God. These straight people need some communication. You're Malcolm, like what do you think he should do with his like sad, sad, non-confrontation? I don't know, man. Okay. One time two of my friends were going to get married

and it was not a good scene. Okay. And they had sent out their save the dates and I had a talk with both of them separately and I said, you don't have to do this. And recently they got divorced. The end. Anyway.

How's it feel to be right? Listen, terrible. You don't want your friend to go through that. Not good. It's not good. You don't want that at all. Like, I mean, it's not, there's no moral judgment. It's bad.

But I will say, I think that your job as a friend is often to sort of like say hard things. I fully admit I am terrible at this. Sometimes I really struggle with it. So I understand. But Malcolm is confrontational, right? So like Malcolm should be like, listen, bud, I need you to either step it up

or like maybe the three of us could have a conversation and I could like support you as you are telling, like some mediation needs to happen so that Walt does not end up in a prison of lies forever. Yeah. Okay. So you're 50% right. Malcolm is very confrontational.

Malcolm is like, I'll take care of this. I'm the best man. I'll stand up for you. He responds to the Facebook post and is like, this is ridiculous. I think it's bullshit. Like everyone needs to wear a mask even if they're vaccinated

because part of this is indoors, right? He's going on and on. Oh my God. Oh no. Nora responds to this. And it's like, if you're not comfortable, you don't have to come. Oh my God.

Oh my God. Oh my God. Does he say that Walt is uncomfortable? What does he say? Malcolm is like, I don't wanna miss my best friend's wedding. Right? I wanna stand up for him, but also now his future wife is very mad at me.

So Malcolm is like, you know what? You're right. It's your wedding. Do whatever you want. He like apologizes as a like peace offering. He is like, my mom's a wine distributor. Like she can help you get wine for the wedding. Oh no.

He's like going deeper into it. But what he needs to do is stand up for people who are immunocompromised. He needs to stand up for that. That's what he needs to do is get his friend out of this relationship. Like one of those hooks, you know, that they used to pull people off the stage,

do that with Walt. Oh my God. Okay, things are calm for like a second after this happens. Oh no. But then two weeks before the wedding, one of the people in the Facebook group posts to the wall and it's like, hi, my partner is immunocompromised

and I just wanted to make sure that everyone coming to this wedding is definitely vaccinated. Yes. Nora responds to this and is like, oh, ha ha, whoops. I forgot that my grandma's coming and she's a Republican and she won't be vaccinated. Everyone is like, Jesus Christ.

Because like what are the rules here? Right? Like what are we supposed to be doing? A groomsman comments on this and is like, doesn't that kind of like mess up the entire point of your rules? Doesn't that kind of like ruin the whole plan here? And Nora, what do you think she does?

She picks him out of the Facebook group. Tidy's are. She's like, boop, boop, boop, boop. You know she likes doing that. She's just hitting a move from group. Yeah, she likes doing that. Sometimes she hovers. She like puts her mouse over the button, she just hovers.

She's like, I want to feel alive. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. Maybe I won't do it. And she's doing it to Walt. That's what she's doing to. Yeah. She's like, the drama, I am the center.

Okay. For some reason this, like the groomsman getting kicked out is the thing that like really upsets Malcolm. And Malcolm is like, you know what? It is time for me to talk to Walt. He is like two weeks before the wedding, time to tell the truth. So 12 years in due relationship

and two weeks before the wedding, Malcolm is like, listen, Walt, I don't think that Nora is like right for you. I think that you're fighting all the time. I think this is getting ridiculous. You don't have to do this. I think like, yeah, you don't have to do this. He like lays it all on the line, right?

Malcolm goes so far as to be like, I will help you cover the cost of this wedding if you just call it off. Oh my gosh, that's really showing up. Also, Malcolm has some money. I mean, maybe he could put it into like moving Walt into a different housing situation or I don't know. Like, what is going, okay, okay, okay, okay.

Oh my God, oh my God. This is so dramatic. I'm so stressed out. Walt is like, I appreciate you as my buddy and my pal, but Nora is just being really dramatic because of the wedding. Like she'll calm down after the wedding is over. Oh no.

And Malcolm is like, I just, okay, fine, whatever. But a few days later, I guess, Walt told Nora about the conversation he had with Malcolm. Oh, this is somebody trying to get out of a relationship. That's what Walt is doing in his passive way. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Nora, also confrontational, since Malcolm attacks the length of the Constitution,

part of which I will read. Yes, we're getting the recipe. He he he he. You are actively working to sabotage this wedding. Your dissent in the Facebook group was embarrassing. Your apology was not enough. The wine from your mom is not enough. Walt told me that you told him

that you would pay to move the wedding and I think that's fucked up. This is our choice, not yours. You're not involved in this relationship. If you want to make things right, you and I need to have a conversation one-on-one soon so that I can forgive you and have a clear head going into our wedding.

Girl, you're not gonna have a clear head, not in a billion years, literally a billion years, this person will not have a clear head. Also, two weeks before your wedding is not the time to be doing this. Also, what is going on? Like, what is happening right now? I just cannot believe that this is still like,

it's like watching a, it just, I, it's, it, stop. It needs to stop. I know. It's just incredible. It's not gonna stop. We're not there yet. Malcolm responds to this text and I quote, Nora, we do not need to talk about this now, period. I apologized once, period. I am helping with the wedding, period.

I do not want to argue with you. We need to talk about this after the wedding. Okay, Malcolm does not understand. Malcolm does not understand how weddings work, how people work. I mean, Malcolm is confrontational, but then he's a little bit of a weenie, I gotta say. Like a real, a real, this is the moment for him

to answer the red phone that's ringing in his oval office. And he is, he's just like unplugging the red phone, drowning it in the tub. He's like absolutely not. And he's just like, bye. I don't have to deal with it. I don't have to deal with it. I'm gonna lock the door.

I'm gonna walk away. I'm never coming home. Exactly. As you can imagine, Nora freaks out completely. She calls him a coward. She says that he doesn't care about her opinions and feelings. I mean, that's true.

She's like, here's the deal. If you want to come to the wedding, we need to talk about it. Like it's not just that you don't want Walt to marry me. It's because you didn't want to date me. You don't want to tell me this for no reason. This is called conflict archeology. I learned about it in middle school,

possibly at the time when I pivoted away from being somebody who gossiped. But we learned about conflict resolution. And one of the techniques that I learned literally on a poster board, I have it in my head, is conflict archeology, which is like when you are in a conflict with somebody and they start bringing up stuff from like way, way, way, way back.

And it is fucked up, man. Ooh, these people. Yes. Okay, keep going. Okay, Malcolm is like, you know what? I got to tap out. This is out of my emotional league of expertise. I will simply ask Walt what I should do.

Yeah. Right? He's like, I'm fighting with Walt's fiance. Walt's my best friend. Oh no, Walt is not going to have the answer here. Walt tells him, and I quote, well, I guess tell her how you feel. Wrong answer.

Because Malcolm will and Malcolm does. Malcolm writes a fucking manifesto. This thing is called research paper, but it has footnotes. He's like compiling stories from other people. Oh no, a dossier? He's like adding in numbers. He's writing that Nora is a narcissist

and that this wedding is a disaster wrought upon the earth to punch them all. The earth is shaking. He has like remembered the tiniest problems from a dozen years ago. He's adding them all to the letter. He's like writing down not only his problems with her, but like problems that Grace has told him.

Telephone, telephone. He's playing telephone with all of the problems. And worse, he's naming names. So he's saying like Grace told me that you said he is going down with this ship and also he's lighting this ship on fire. He is also like, listen, Nora, toxic. Malcolm also toxic.

Yes, he finishes his manifesto and he emails it. Emails it. Hey. I was hoping that he would like attach it as a Google doc to the Facebook group, but an email is also very nice. Nora responds very briefly and is like, I think you're the real narcissist.

I think you're still in love with me. I think you're trying to ruin this wedding because you don't want Walt to get married. She emails it to the entire group. No. No, wait. Can they see his dossier? Oh yeah.

No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. The front group explodes, right? It is like the earth is shaking, skies are opening, plates on shelves are rattling, it's nuclear, well, winter. There's like a canyon splitting and it's like people on Nora's side and people on Malcolm.

Both sides are mad at each other, but they're also mad at their side. There's no, it's like everybody is pointing at everyone else. It's like everyone is the worst. Yeah, exactly. It's that Spider-Man meme, but it's 20 people. Oh my God. Oh my God.

So this is chaos. Nora, during this whole debacle, messages Malcolm's mom because they've been texting a lot about the wine. About the wine, oh no. And it's like, maybe you could be on my side and talk some sense into your son. Malcolm's mom is like, absolutely not.

This is a clear disaster. Oh my God. What do you think Malcolm should do? What do I think Malcolm should do? I mean, maybe it like, does he have anywhere else that he wants to live? Like are there other friends that he has in his life? Cause like, I don't know, man.

I don't like, he did the thing that you can't do, which is like break the trust of every single, and you can't do it in a small group. You cannot do this to 20 people at once. You cannot do this to 20 people at once and expect anything to go well for you. Oh, yui. You also, I feel like we've talked about this

quite a few times on this podcast, but do not put this shit in writing. You wanna yell at Nora, yell at her in front of her. Have some gumption. This is all, listen, I love a phone call. And I think that phone calls need to make a resurgence. Like they're much less cursed than low rise jeans, right? And why would you put in writing

what you could simply yell? And that is because you won't do that cause Malcolm is a weenie. Just putting it out there. Weenie man, okay. As a proof of his weeniness, Malcolm does nothing in response to this. What?

What, like how does he walk around? His texts, he must have 300 unread texts because everybody who got that email is now texting him separately to yell at him. Cause like he's splintered the group apart. Yes. Oh my God. Oh my God. Weenie. Two days.

Two days before the wedding. This wedding is not, oh no. Walt, text Malcolm. Here is their text exchange. Oh my God, I get the text exchange. Oh, too. Walt, I've decided that I don't think you should attend the wedding.

Oh no. Malcolm, that makes sense. Oh my God. One hour later, Malcolm. You did tell me to tell her how I felt. I love the resentment that is dripping from this single line of texts. That's literally like, you know,

actually I'm just thinking about a little bit more and like you told me to do this, bro. Oh my God. Walt responds and is like, well, I didn't realize that you would go quite so in depth. Uh-huh, uh-huh. 12 hours later, Malcolm text Walt, he says, do you still want the wine?

Walt says, unfortunately no. Malcolm is removed from the wedding Facebook group. Oh my God. Oh my God. I think that it was Nora communicating because Walt the weenie is not gonna, Walt is not gonna text this up with Malcolm either. Oh, interesting conspiracy theory.

I mean, listen. I love it. Yeah, I think that Nora must be doing that. I mean, but it's not really Nora's style, but it is Nora's style to be like really in it with Malcolm. Yeah. We are like very close to the end. Do you think that all of this drama

was necessary in this situation? No, there were so many moments that this went wrong and like one of them was 12 years before this happened. You know, like one of them was the plane that she got on before she moved to the city. And also like every, there are so many steps that were wrong and they're about communication.

People need to learn to communicate directly one on one. They need to stop doing things on Facebook almost entirely. Really nothing at all should be done there. And like, I just don't understand. I don't understand. This is, all of this could have been avoided by Walt, passive controller saying what he needs and wants. You know?

Yeah, it also could have been avoided because Walt is so passive. If Malcolm had just said, no, you can't date her. That's right. Oh my God. If that's stupid chilies or whatever, he had been like, no. If he had taken a sip from his scorpion bowl

and said, you know what, sip, sip, sip, sip, no. No. And then Nora would have gone on to poison a whole other friend group and it would have been a whole other thing. My God. Well, and also Malcolm didn't say how he felt really, right? Like he never said, there are so many moments

of miscommunication here. Oh my God. Oh my God. Okay, okay, okay. Wow, okay, wait. I don't think this wedding's gonna happen. You don't. Tell me why.

I don't think it's gonna happen because it feels radioactive. It feels like the only way for this to happen is Nora and Walt to like go to City Hall because no one will go to their wedding. Like that's, like I feel like the only way out is like cut it all off. Just no one is there.

It's a quiet, there's no one there and they're just by themselves with one witness probably. Wrong. No. Despite months of drama. Despite kicking people out of this Facebook group. Despite ruining Walt's longest friendship.

No, no, no, no. Despite Walt's lack of confrontation, the wedding was normal. It was dull even. No, really? Everyone who went told everyone about all of this drama and then they went to the wedding and they were like, there was nothing there.

That's so wild. Like someone told us that it was the equivalent of watching a movie that had been really poorly adapted and so it would only make sense if you had read the book. That's so good. Also, like there are people who went to that wedding and were like, this was the loveliest wedding I've ever seen. Yes.

I loved it and those people are not on Facebook. You know, like they just like- And they did not get the email. They didn't get the email. They didn't, they just like went and they had a great time and they had no idea. I will say one time I went to a wedding that everyone knew that the person

had cheated on the other person. Oh no. They had had a very fancy other like small celebration and between the fancy celebration and the one that I attended, which was like the big event that was like in the place. Everyone, like there had been a cheating thing. There had been a breaking up thing and it was like that.

It was like, okay, I'm here. I guess I might as well dance. I'm here to watch the show and have some snacks. It's great. Here we go. I have to ask you because this story is fairly complicated. Who do you think is the villain here? You know, they're all kind of awful.

They're all bad doing a bad job at communicating. They're not villains. I feel like it's a tri-villainship. A triumvirate. A triumvirate of villainity. Tri-villain because they are all holding a lot of shit that they should not be holding. Nora is a villain because,

I mean, honestly, the Facebook group is really like, she like has done many, many bad things. Their relationship is bad. Yes. Walt, okay, Walt, I don't think Walt's a villain. It's not a tri-villainship. I'm sorry, I take that back. There are two villains to this story, Malcolm and Nora,

because Malcolm could have used his big boy words and used his big boy feelings and confronted and sort of like been honest with his friend and been honest with Nora. Nora is bad. But, but like, I also feel like she is not getting direct communication from her partner.

And yeah, and I, Walt is not a villain, but definitely is not someone who is doing a great job. He's not a friend. He's not the hero we deserve. No, definitely not. He's like, the thing is that like, it's really hard to learn how to ask for what you need. And it's really, and it doesn't always,

and you don't always know. And it's really hard to get over a feeling of being inadequate or like being like self-esteem stuff. Like I really see, I see Walt, but he's making some really bad choices. He really is. Anyway, yeah, okay. Would you like to hear the last update that we got?

I'm dying. I just, I don't understand how these people got married. I'm like really worried that they have a child. I'm really worried that right now there is a little Walti Nora walking around. Oh, you're nodding. Oh no. I'm nodding because one, yes there is.

They had a baby, like baby shower, wick and ceremony and invited all of the friend group. No. But the real update, the real update is that two weeks after the wedding, Walt reached out to Malcolm and was like, do you want to get drinks? And now they are best friends again.

No conversation, no like. No conversation, no digesting. Men need to learn how to talk about actual things. It's really important. It's important for like the whole future of humanity that cis men do a fucking better job than these two buddies do. Gibroni one, Gibroni two,

they're just getting drinks like nothing happened? Yeah, they're just getting their weekly drink, hanging out at the like group events. Oh my God. Just two best pros. No. Playing video games online. I want to slam my head against the wall.

I am so irritated. Same. I am so irritated with these people. Like also, also it's like, are they going to therapy? Like everybody needs to go to therapy and work on their fucking issues, man. Oh man. That's me knocking on the wall.

I just, the thing that kills me about this is I can't imagine the level of like self-control you would have to have to be friends again with someone who wrote a dossier against your wife. Wait, but does Nora talk to Malcolm? Do we know that? I don't know that. But I assume so, since Walt and Malcolm

are best friends again. Okay, I have a new theory on this. Tell me. You know when there is like a family where one person just doesn't go to all the events and the events just happen. And like there's just one person who's not there and like nobody talks about it.

And if you ever ask, they're like, oh yeah, he doesn't go to events. He doesn't go to events when this aunt is here. Like that's it, you know? Like that kind of thing. But behind the scenes, this is one of those where like, this is the seed of that. This is the seed of that kind of thing

where like a 20 year grudge is gonna happen. And then something is going to explain something it's gonna have. Right, where like Malcolm's future child is like, why don't you like Aunt Nora? Yep, exactly. Malcolm's like, we don't ask those questions. We don't talk about Nora, no, no, no.

You know, like this is one of those where like, it's really, it's like, there is, this is where those like multi-generational, you know, like 100 years of solitude. Like, you need a chart to understand who they are too. This is the beginning of the montage using Capulet. Yeah. It really is.

Well, Julia, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a joy to have you. Oh my God, Kelsey, I can't believe it. This is some epic shit. Oh no. Oh, and on Facebook? I'm still mad about the Facebook thing. Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip.

If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normalgossip at defector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 gossip. If you love this podcast and want us to keep making it, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow me on all social media at McKinney-Kelsey. This podcast was produced by Alex Sujan Laughlin.

Defector's Projects Editor is Justin Ellis. Our Editor-in-Chief is Tom Leigh. Jay Tol is our Production Assistant. Thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. I'm Kelsey McKinney, and remember, you did not hear this from me.