Normal Gossip - Vigilante Renovation with Jasmine Guillory

Episode Date: May 10, 2023

Jasmine Guillory joins us for a tough lesson in bro friendships. PSA: This is the sixth of ten episodes this season! Get your tickets to the Normal Gossip live tour here. Follow Jasmine on IG @jasminepics You can support Normal Gossip directly by buying merch or becoming a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend at supportnormalgossip.com. Our merch shop is run by Dan McQuade. You can also find all kinds of info about us and how to submit gossip on our Komi page: https://normalgossip.komi.io/ Episode transcript here. Follow the show on Instagram @normalgossip, and if you have gossip, email us at [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney (@mckinneykelsey) and produced by Alex Sujong Laughlin (@alexlaughs). Diana Moskovitz is our story editor. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Jae Towle Vieira is our production assistant. Show art by Tara Jacoby. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. Credits recorded by Rebecca Vitkus.

Hey, quick favor. We are conducting an audience survey. We'd be really grateful if you could take just a few minutes and answer it. Please visit survey.prx.org slash gossip to take the survey today. That's survey.prx.org slash gossip. Thank you. Hi, and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney. In each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Today, I am thrilled to have with me Jasmine Guillory. Jasmine is a New York Times best-selling author, and her novels include The Wedding Date, which I read in one day and then demanded all of my friends read immediately so we could talk about it. She has also written the Reese's Book

Club selection The Proposal and Drunk on Love. Her work has appeared in The Wall Street Journal, Cosmopolitan, Bonapetit, Anti-Magazine, and she has a frequent book contributor on The Today Show. She lives in Oakland, California. Jasmine, welcome. I am thrilled you're here. I am thrilled to be here. Oh, my God. I'm so excited. How are you doing? How's your day? I am great. How are you? I'm good. I'm all amped up to talk to you. I am a, embarrassingly, I am a huge fan. Thank you so much. Well, I am also a huge fan of this podcast. That's beautiful. I love that for us. Do you want to start out with just the first classic question I have for you, which is what's your personal relationship with gossip like?

A previous guest on this podcast, who I do not remember who it was, said like, fiction is just fake gossip. And yes, that's me. Why I love writing fiction, because it's just made up gossip. So it's like me writing a book, imagining that I'm telling this like, oh, and oh, my God, listen to what happened next. Sorry. So one of my best friends. That's so much fun. Can you tell listeners who might not be familiar with your work kind of what you write about and then how that is directly connected to this tone? So I feel like there's a specific thing going on there they might not understand. Yes, I write romance novels. We love it. And so it is, it is very fun to be able to tell like, the gossip of two people

getting together in a very fun way. Yeah. So how does that like play out particularly in your process? Do you have to think about like, who knows what about other people? I do actually always have to think about that because partly because like most of my books, I'm telling from two points of view, right, from from both sides. And so, so I kind of have to think about like, what do what does each person know about each other? Yeah. And then what do they're like various friends and family and relationship know about what's going on, especially when as often is the case in relationships, right? People are keeping secrets either from their friends and family or from their partner or whatever. And so I do have to sometimes pay

attention to like, oh wait, but they don't know that yet. Okay. Yeah, this is kind of a question out of left field. So I understand if you don't have an answer for it. But I am curious, you know, I, I wrote a novel and one question I was constantly getting is which parts are true, which I am sure you have heard or may hear in the future. How do you kind of view truth as a lens that matters or doesn't matter in your work and in gossip? I guess this is sort of something I think about because often the parts that are true are like the emotions. Yeah. Right. So like, either I have felt some specific emotion or a friend has and told me about it or something. But the situation is almost not the same. I mean, there's often like a funny story from my life

that I will drop into a book, but it's usually in a thought, right? It's not like, it's not the plot or anything like that. But the, you know, people often ask like, is the character based on you or someone you know, and like, I mean, often there's like a germ of the beginning of the character that I get either from my real life or from a story that someone has told me. But then as I write, it becomes their own person, you know, they become their own character. Yeah. When you're thinking about like what characters know and what they don't know, how do you map that out? I just thought of my own curiosity. Like what is your process like? Do you write just straight through? In a first draft, I write just straight through. Wow. And then, but I like my first drafts

are incredibly messy. So and I do a lot of revision before anyone sees it. So when I'm revising, I will like sort of make a big spreadsheet, chapter by chapter. Yeah. And then, and then I'm thinking like, oh, wait, you know, this story has to be told before they have this conversation. And after they have this conversation, where can I drop it? Or, you know, things like that. So that's something that I pay a lot of attention to, like, as I revise. Yeah. And then I'm always thankful for editors and copy editors that are always catching things that I did not. So I like this. This is very interesting to me, right? Of like kind of a vomit draft that you then kind of restructure. Do you do that with gossip stories in your real life too?

Usually, yes, actually. You do. I mean, I don't, the problem is I don't hear the restructuring. I just vomit the draft, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then usually I tell part of the story and they're like, wait, I'm not saying, oh, right. I forgot to tell you. Okay. So I jump back and forth and yeah. So often, probably people are very confused by the gossip that I tell them. That makes sense though to me that you said that your fiction is kind of like gossiping for you, right? Because it's the same process of iteration, I guess. Yes. Well, and often, also like sometimes you have to think about who already knows enough about these people so that I can tell the gossip to you that they will understand it, right? That I don't have to do

all the background. Yeah. If I'm telling someone like gossip about my family, who is not in my family, right? It is usually one of my best friends who I have known since I was like in seventh grade because like those people that you've known since you were little, they have hung out with your whole family. Right. They know it. They know who all the players are. So I'm not going to tell someone like, I don't want to have to start with the family tree. And then, you know, like, I could just drop in with, okay, so you know this uncle, like, they already know who all the people are. You don't have to do like full flashbacks because your friend just remembers your childhood, which is useful.

The only question I have left is just about crushes, which I thought would be fun since you are a romance novelist. I would like to know how you think about crushes in the gossip landscape, like with your work. Like it feels like a crush is the best fodder for gossip to me. A crush is really good fodder for gossip, but sometimes like a crush is a thing that you want to kind of hold on all by yourself too, right? Because I think of crushes often as just something really innocent. Like, yeah, like that guy at the coffee shop who always like knows your order and he smiles, smile back and like, but it's nothing, you know, it's not real. It's just something that like brightens your day a little bit. Yeah. Or, you know, the person that

you always see while walking your dog and you never talk, but you smile and like, I feel like crushes are just like a small, happy thing. And then someone else is like, you and that guy at the coffee shop and you're like, no, no, no, no. We just always tell each other it's okay, you know. Yeah. Yeah, it is. There's kind of a like sacredness to that crush that you're like, I don't want to know your name. I don't want to know anything about you. I just want to wave. Yes, exactly. Right. I want to tip you for my coffee and say thank you. And yeah, I don't want to ruin it by knowing anything about you. I just want this to be a special little like tiny relationship that we have. Because you can like create the fantasy in your head.

Exactly. Right. You can write a whole book about it. You can write a whole romance novel about it if you believe. Are you ready to gossip? I'm ready. Great. Our friend of a friend today, we're going to call him Luke. Okay. He's in his like mid 30s, very cute, very lonely. For Vibe, we're thinking like he has a little mustache. He has a big quad tattoo. Okay. He has one of those tiny beanies that sits on the top of his head. Okay. I'm picturing him. Tell me, do you have an idea of like what this type of guy is like? Any preconceived notions you'd like to share? Yes. Like is always kind of sitting at the bar of the place that you go into. I think he's a person that a lot of people would have a question.

Yeah. But you said he's very lonely. So maybe he's not good at actually having a conversation. I know. Okay. So Luke's like number one goal in his whole life is to hang out. Like he just wants to be hanging out. He like moved to like mid-sized city in the middle of the country from a coast because he was like, if I have a lower cost of living, then I have more time to hang out because I have to work less. Got it. Okay. This works. He loves his new city. It is like summer, best place on earth to him, huge parks, so green, mild. That's the places to hang out. Yeah. Exactly. The problem is that because he's moved, he doesn't have any friends here. Do you have any ways to make friends as an adult? What's your method?

I mean, a lot, not to be too gendered on this, but I mean, probably to be gendered on, to be gendered on. Yes. A lot of my ways to make friends are like woman related. I think have different ways. But you know, Luke seems like a meeting people at a bar kind of person. Yeah. So like hanging out at a bar or finding an activity you all enjoy. So whether it's like crafts or read it, you know, doing a club or sports, any of those things. Yes. The activity that Luke loves is democratic socialism. He joins like a political activist group in the city. And like, this goes great, honestly. Like he loves the group. He feels good. He's like lobbying for changes in his city and

feeling like he's making a difference. But what he realizes pretty quickly is that because this is a city where people kind of grew up, went to high school and stayed, people have built in friend groups that they are already very solidified in and he like cannot figure out how to wedge himself into one. Yes, that's often a challenge. It's so hard. After six months, his only friend is this girl named Max. He met Max at work because they both work at a bike shop. And this is great because bikes, you know, lots of things to talk about. Yes. And Luke only has three factions. They are democratic socialism hanging out and bicycles. Yes. So he's like, bicycles are great. I have my three bikes. His favorite kind is this like vintage steel road bike and he like babies it

right. It has like a custom triangle bag slightly oversized tires and like shiny handlebars. Okay. All right. Do you have feelings about bikes? Only in that, you know, I live in a place where a lot of people ride bikes. I am not one of them, but I do have a very clear picture in my head of who Luke is. I am also not a bicycle person because I'm terrified of getting hit by a car. So to me, I'm like, that looks like a bike. To bike people, Luke's bike is like a beacon, right? And they are like drawn to him, but he still can't convert this into friendship. The only friend he's made is Max. Okay. They always have fun when they're like working their shifts together, but they are very much like work friends. So he like

hasn't transitioned it into a real friendship. Yes. This would all be kind of fine, right? Like he, you know, it takes time to make friends. It takes time to feel like you belong in a community. But six months after Luke moves there, his landlord announces that she's selling the building and Luke will have to move. So he is being evicted. Oh no. Poor Luke. He's not super upset about this because his apartment is like kind of a shit box, right? It's like dark, no natural light. The neighbors suck. He has like a bunch of those big house centipedes that are always crawling around. Well, maybe time for Luke to move anyway. Yeah. But the issue is that rent has increased. So he's like, I can't, even though it's only been six months, he's like he can't

afford an equal place for the same price. Right. And he works at a bag shop. He probably is not making a ton of money. Yes. And so his inclination is like, oh, I need a roommate. But his only friend is Max, who is a work friend. Oh no. What, what, why are you saying, oh no? Oh, I mean, I, I am, I am worried that he is going to spoil his only friendship. I do think it's important to note here that there is like zero sexual tension between Max and Luke. That is important to note. I was wondering if he was interested in that. No, like friendship vibes only. Okay. Good. That's good. Does this change your mind? Like, not really. I mean, because, because often you can very easily ruin friendships by becoming roommates. What do you mean? Well, everybody has a different like

living schedule, right? I mean, some people are morning people, some people are night people, some people are messy. Some people really care about neatness and more like loud, quiet, whatever that can really, that can really be difficult for a friendship. Yeah. Luke is like has some of the same fears as you, right? Like he's like, I need a roommate, but maybe I'll just like post on Craigslist or something, right? Like I don't want to ruin this friendship with my only friend who I also work with. Like that seems dangerous. So he goes to work and he's like, well, I am going to tell my only friend about the fact that I'm being evicted because that is drama. And Max is like, well, what did you do to get evicted? And Luke is like, nothing. I'm a great

tenant. Like my landlord is just selling the building. What a weird question to ask. I know. And then she's like, oh my God, that sucks. And then she starts asking like a bunch of questions that are clearly like what kind of roommate are you? Like she's like, well, are you the kind of person who's clean? Does she want any roommates? And he's like, huh. So he's like stocking the replacement tubes for tires. And he's like, why are you asking me all of these questions? And Max is like, well, like what are you going to do? Where are you going to live now? And Luke's like, well, I'm looking, but like it's hard to find a place and rent is a mess. And then there is this like awkward pause. And Max is like, okay, this is maybe weird,

but a friend of a friend of mine is moving out of this like excellent house. And I can't afford it by myself. She's like, it's a perfect house in this like adorable neighborhood, easy bike to work, great farmers market, but like not fancy enough that the rent is expensive. And it's a duplex. So it's like a whole half a house with a yard. What do you think? I mean, here's the problem. That is very difficult to turn down in Luke's situation. So you would take it? I mean, if I was in Luke's situation, I probably would, even though I now know that that would be a bad idea. Why? Why is it a bad idea? I mean, well, look, it would be a bad idea for me. I know I'm not a good roommate for anyone.

Why are you a bad roommate? I'm looking at your like immaculately spaced bookshelf behind you. And I'm like, I don't think that you're everywhere. Okay, so Max is like, would you like to see this house with me? Like you don't have to commit to it, but would you like to go look at it? And Luke is like, yes. And inside he's like, Oh my God, this is working out perfectly. Like, I was considering this and then I discounted it because I didn't want to ruin our friendship. And then she brought it up. So like, voila, it does sound like it's meant to be. Yes. And they go see it. And it's like an older house that's split down the middle. So it's a duplex, like one

on each side. And there's a big shared porch. And it's set up like kind of a shotgun house, right? Because it's split. So it's like living room, dining room, kitchen. And then there's a small hallway, two bedrooms, one bathroom. But it has original hardwood floors. What do you think? One bathroom. It's rough. And these people are not like super young, right? Like Max and Luke are probably in their like late twenties, early thirties. Do you think you could handle it? I mean, I couldn't. I couldn't. But you know, maybe I mean, Luke is moving from a shithole in and wants like a place that people can hang out in. So maybe he is like, Oh, people can be in my living room. It'll be fun. I will maybe meet some of Max's friends. And I will get to hang out more

because he's number one. Yeah, hanging out. Exactly. And it's really hard to convince people to come hang out with you if you live in a weird apartment with that light, right? Like nobody wants to do that. Nobody wants that. So they're like, let's put it in an application. So they put in their little application. A couple days later, they get an email that's like, you got it. We need like, you know, your security deposit, your first month's rent. Sign this lease. They're like, great. They sign a lease. A couple weeks later, they move in. It is summer. Like imagine perfect light, right? Beautiful light. They are so happy. They're like unpacking boxes, right? They're moving the things that they bought off Facebook Marketplace into this house. And Max is like, uh, did you see

this? And Luke's like, see what? And she's like, this paper, I found it on the counter and she's holding like a piece of paper with like the property management logo at the top. This document is a list of additional rules and requirements for living in the house. That made my jaw drop. Why? Well, that does not seem like a thing to leave on the counter when people have moved in. That seems like a thing to tell. I mean, that seems like a thing that should be on a lease. It seems like you should have told people before they apply. Right? Like that. Yes. Yeah. So on this document are a bunch of like kind of nitpicky requirements, right? And it says it's

these are requirements from the owner of this property. And there's stuff like no leaving stuff on the porch, no storage on the side of the house. The basement under the house is for the owner's use only. No large parties, quiet hours are for midnight to six AM. You must shovel the sidewalk and no maintenance or repairs without the owner's permission. How do you feel about these rules? I mean, some of them seem reasonable like shoveling the sidewalk. The basement is for the owner's use only. Sure. But also just the fact of the rules being given to them after the fact is not great. Yeah. It's not good things for what this owner is like. Right. It's also to me, I'm like some of these rules like quiet hours are for midnight to six AM. It's like that's a

Airbnb rule. Yeah. Like if you're living in a house, you should simply communicate with your neighbors if you're going to have a party, right? Right. Like that's how living in a community works. Yes. Whatever. The realtor, they call the realtor because they're like, what the fuck is this? And the realtor is like, oh, it's not that strict. It's just a list of rules like the tenant before you had no problems. I'm happy to connect to you with them if you want. Luke's like, this seems bad. Landlords love to abuse their power. It seems like this is like unfair and ridiculous. I'm a Luke side, I think. Yeah. And Max is kind of like, it is like, I agree with you, but also this is a nice place. The rent is under market rate. We were going to do most of these things

anyway, like calm down to Occupy Wall Street. And Luke is like, listen, as a member of Occupy Wall Street, we were fucking right. And Max is like, okay, yes, but we have to live here. Yes. And I think at the point in which you are just moving in, it is hard to then say like, oh, well, we should move out because a landlord wants us to shovel the sidewalks. It is summer. We're not worried about that right now. And Max is like, of all of these rules, the only one that's going to be a problem for us is that we can't leave stuff on the porch or the side yard because between us, we have five bicycles, which is like a lot of bicycles. But they're like, it'll be fine, right? The house is kind of big, like whatever.

No, I did not think about the bicycles. I would assume that they would want to put them like in the basement, which they cannot do or something like that. But they can find a way. Yeah. Which side are you on right now of Luke or Max? Do you have a preference? I mean, look, I think that they both have concerns about this or legitimate. But also, what are you going to do? Move out now? That seems, yeah. Yeah. You've already signed the lease. If you move out immediately, you'll lose money. It's a little irrational to pitch a fit big enough to move out. So they agree. They're like, okay, we'll just do these rules, no problem, whatever.

They live in the house for months like harmoniously. They settle in, they hang hard on the wall. They figure out how to store all the bicycles so they're leaning up against the wall of the main room. They get a little cable package. They're living the dream. The only problem is that Max is one of those people who grew up in this community and has a lot of friends. And so she is always going out with her friends and Luke is still kind of lonely. He's like, I have this nice house to hang out in and no one to hang out with me. Why isn't she inviting her friends over? I don't know. It's rude, right? Yes. Maybe it's all the bikes. It's unclear.

Or invite Luke to come out with you and your friends. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. That part's a little unclear to me. But because Luke is at home, when Max is not at home and bored and lonely, he's like on the lookout for friends and he starts to wonder about their next door neighbor. I was going to ask questions about the next door neighbor. Please. What are the questions that you have? Who is the next door neighbor? Great question. Great question. Luke is like, who is the next door neighbor? They've been living here for like six, seven months. And Luke is like, now that I think about it, I don't know that I've ever seen our next door neighbor. Do they hear the next door neighbor? No.

That feels strange to live in a duplex and not hear your next door neighbor. And the lights are not on. And it's kind of weird, but it's also like, sometimes you just miss your neighbors. That's not impossible. And it's an old house, right? They're like, maybe the walls are filled with lead paint. Maybe that's why. But Luke is like, it's in the back of his mind. He's put this little pot on the back burner and he's like, where is my neighbor? And what really tips him off is when it starts snowing, because this is a place that gets a lot of snow. And the side of the sidewalk that is the neighbors is never shoveled. Oh, that was in the rules. Yes. And Luke, because he is like a kind, generous person

constantly on the lookout for friends, is shoveling his neighbor's sidewalk for him because he's like, it's rude to leave your sidewalk on shovel, right? Like, and then people might slip. Yes. That is very kind of Luke. But the like third time he shovels their neighbor's sidewalk, he comes in and he's like, isn't it weird that we haven't met our neighbor? And Max is like, I've met him. What? And Luke is like, what? Like, I was kind of starting to think he didn't exist. Like, when did you meet him? And Max is like, Oh, I don't remember. Like just in passing, but I've definitely met him. Like I'm 90% sure. And Luke's like, okay, sure. A few weeks after this, Max comes in, her eyes are huge. She's like, Oh my God,

I am so sorry. You were right. I had never seen our neighbor, but I have seen him now. She perches on the edge of the couch, like with her hands, like in a little prayer position, and she's like, you know, telling this tale. She's like, I was sitting on the porch, having a little joint when a Toyota pulls up and this man gets out, he's maybe my height. Max is like five nine. She's like, he's carrying a carry on suitcase, but like in one hand away from his body, like it's a single grocery bag. She was like, he's wearing a tank top from a charity dunk tank event. And it was low cut with his like chest hair hanging out and it's literally snowing outside. And Luke is like, it sounds like you think he is hot. And Max is like,

he's our neighbor. And then she's like, he has the thickest hair I've ever seen. I swear to you, he's like fucking Oscar Isaac. And the neighbor, she saw the neighbor walk into the house. Is she sure that this person lives there? Yeah, she watched him open the door. She said, hi. And she came darting in to tell her little tale. And Luke is like in his head. He's like, I definitely would have remembered if I saw a man who looked like Oscar Isaac in a tank top. Like, yes, I would know if I had seen this man. But he's also like, this sounds like a friend. He's like, Oscar Isaac seems like he loves to hang, right? Luke is like, I want to try and befriend this man. But also clearly Max is like horny as hell for your weird like absentee neighbor.

And also he's your weird absentee neighbor. Like, how do you play this situation? Poor lonely Luke. I know. I feel so bad for Luke. I feel like boy. Yes, I feel like he needs more like lessons on how to make friends. Yes. But also, you know, you knock on the door and say, hey, do you want to, do you want to have some beer on our shared porch or something? Yes, that is exactly what happens. Luke goes over there and he knocks on the door. And he's like, hi, the man who opens the door really does look like Oscar Isaac in a tank top. But now he's also wearing like a zip up hoodie. Okay. And Luke is like, Hey, man, like I'm your neighbor. Me and my roommate wanted to see if you wanted to come over for a beer since we like haven't met

you yet. And this guy is like, Hey, I'm Nikki, like, sure, give me 10 minutes. I'm gonna go shower and then I'll be right over. Great. Maybe Luke has made a friend. Maybe Luke has made a friend. But also they can like hear when the shower is on. So he's like, Okay, that's interesting. Right? Like, I have never heard the shower on before and I can hear it now. Yeah. But also Luke is so proud of himself. He's like, he comes back and he's like, I did it. He asked the one on a friend date. He's coming over. We're going to have a little beer. So they're like, he and Max are like screwing around tidying things up, right? They're like, Oh my God, our new neighbor is coming over. He knocks on the door. He comes in. Nikki is here.

Nikki has brought with him one of those big beer growlers from a fancy brewery. Okay. All right. He seems like Luke's gonna die. First of all, yes. And the beer inside is that kind of beer that like tastes like you're just chewing a hop. Okay. And Luke is like this man is my soulmate. It does sound like he's made, he's met his soulmate. Nikki has also brought homemade hummus as a little treat. And they're like, we love our new neighbors. Yeah, besties. And he walks in and he's like, I love what you've done with the place. And they're like, Oh, were you friends with the old tenants? And he's like, Oh, yeah, but like they had no art and no decorations. And they're like, okay, weird, but sure.

And they're both like, why died at this man, right? They're asking him all kinds of questions, right? They're like, who are you? Where are you from? What's your family do? And they learn that he's from Chicago, that his family was like Polish immigrants, that he loves pizza, but not deep dish. And that he plays pickup basketball, which is why he was wearing a tank top. Obviously. Okay, got it. How are you feeling about Nikki at this point? How are you feeling about this whole scenario? I mean, you know, Nikki seems like Luke's BFF meant to be forever. Also, it feels like Max is getting even more interested. Yes. Yes. Okay. After the first beer, they do like what all tenants start doing, which is like,

it's time to compare notes. Yes. Right. About the landlord. Yes. They're like, how much are you paying in rent? How long have you been here? All this intel that you need to survive in a place where you don't own the property you live in, right? Luke is like, this is a great place. We love it. He's like, my literal only complaint is the rules. And Nikki's like, wait, which of the rules? He's like, some of them are hard, but which ones are you upset about? And Luke's like, well, we have all these bikes, and we can't put them on the porch or in the side yard. And Max is like, yeah, we've been considering doing some like vigilante renovation. She's like, we have those like, they have those, I don't know if you know what I'm talking about,

but they have these like bracket things that you can install on a wall. Yes. And the bikes hang on them and then they like close. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yes. I have seen those at, you know, bike friendly coffee shops near me. I live in Oakland. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Max is like, if we had one of those, all our bikes would be off the floor. They would stop smudging the walls and also that it could all be folded over and like not in the way all the time. And she's like, it's easy. We'll just like drill some clamps in. Like who's going to know? And Nikki's like, well, you would need to like find the studs. And Max is like, yeah, but we can find studs. Like we're adults. And Nikki's like, I don't know. I've always asked for permission

from the owner because like he's always given it to me. So like that's something to know. How long has Nikki lived there, first of all? Nikki has lived there for three years. Three years. Okay. So he says, so he is like, just ask. Max is like, well, we could ask or we could just do it. And Luke is trying to befriend Nikki, right? So Luke is like, he's like, well, why would we even like ask? Like, why wouldn't we just do this? It seems fine. We could patch the wall when we moved out. And Nikki's like, you should just ask. Like it seems like it's something that would be approved. And Luke is like, damn, you must be a landlord's dream. And Nikki cackles and is like, yeah, I pay my rent on time and I'm never here. That is a landlord's dream. But this is a perfect

segue, right? So they're like, yeah, why aren't you ever here? Where have you been? And Nikki's like, oh, yeah, I don't live here full time. Like apparently he has one of those like travel jobs where you're always having to go to projects and be there for like months at a time. Okay. Yeah. And so this is his like home base, but he's there for like a couple months at a time and then he's gone again. Okay. And they're like, okay, this is starting to make a lot more sense. Yes. Why we had not heard your shower. Why we have never heard this band before. Why he has just appeared out of the blue why he's managed to live here for three years without us knowing who he is, right? Yes. And they have like a nice end of their beer and then Nikki goes home. Now there are two things

that Max and Luke are going to fight about quietly because they share wall with Nikki. They are who has dibs on Nikki. Yes. And should we ask the landlord for permission to mount the bikes on the wall? Which problem would you like to conquer first? I feel like the should we ask the landlord for permission problem is the one to conquer first, partly because now they have told Nikki about it. Yes. So they if I feel like if they had just done it without telling anybody, that would be one thing. But now they have told Nikki and they don't know he could be a murderer. Yeah, that's true. He could be a cop. It's like you can't you can't be just telling people you're vigilante playing. You can. You have to either do your vigilante stuff or not do it, but you

can't tell in advance. Yes. But I feel like now they have to ask permission. And Luke is kind of like because he wants to be her friend Nikki, he's also like we don't want Nikki to be like seeing ghosts, right? We don't want Nikki to think that we're the type of people that just break rules all the time. Yes. Because then like what if he starts thinking that we're doing things that we're not doing? Yes. Or they could just wait for Nikki to leave again and do it and say we did ask for permission. I mean, we have, you know, yes, infinite options. Yes. Max is like, fine, you can ask for permission. Like I'm not asking for permission, but if you want to ask for it, like be my guest. How do you handle the situation with like Luke wanting to be best friends with

Nikki and Max wanting to sleep with Nikki? What is your what's your play here? I feel like they both, they can both try. You're like, shoot your shot. Yes, go for it. They decide like, basically, it's up to Nikki, right? Like we're both going to make our moves and he can pick. Maybe he'll pick both of us. Maybe he'll pick both, maybe he'll pick neither. Right. It's up to him. Okay. So the next morning, Luke is like, he gets up and he's like, it's time to email the property manager. So he emails the property manager and is like, here's a picture of the bike rack we want to put up. Here's what it would require to be put up. Like, here's how we would fix that after we're done. Can we have permission for this? And the property manager

is like, I'll forward it to the owner and I'll get back to you. By the end of the day, the property manager emails back and is like, thumbs up, good to go, put your bike stud thing up. They're like, great. So then, you know, he's like, Luke is like knocking on the wall trying to find the stud, right? Which is like a siren call if you are anyone's neighbor and like knocking on a shared wall. So Nicky comes like trotting over and he's like, what's up? What are you doing? And Luke's like, oh, sorry, I didn't know you were home. And Nicky's like, I'm home, but like, what's up? Why are you knocking on the wall? And Luke's like, oh, putting up this stud bike thing, like I got permission. And Nicky's like, do you need a hand? And Luke's like, yes, I do. I need help badly.

I have a friend now. He's going to help me put up a bike thing. It's all, it's all perfect. Yes. And Nicky is like a handy guy. So he's like, let me go get my stud finder. And Luke's like, yes. Yeah. So he comes over with his stud finder and he's like, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, right? Finds the little studs. They put up the thing. Luke's like, this is going great. The bikes are off the floor. They're no longer smudging the wall. Nicky is here. And so Luke is like, I too have, you know, a growler full of beer. Would you like to have a beer? It's like the bro friend meeting, mating call. I do have a growler. I do have a growler. Let's compare. So they're like having their little beer, doing their little like, you know, very basic chat of

like, what do you do? Like, how long have you lived here? When Max comes in and she's like, oh my God, Nicky, right? She is like flirting up a storm. But Nicky is not reciprocating. He's just like, he's being like, oh yeah, hey, good to see you. Like also treating her like a friend. And so at some point Max is like, this is not working. Like, I'm going to go to my room. You guys have a good night. And when Nicky leaves, he does not like try to get Max's phone number. He's like, Luke, man, like, can I have your phone number? Like if you need help again, or if you just like want to chat, I don't have a lot of friends here because I'm always gone. This is the best day of Luke's life. Like he's, I mean, Luke's face is like the heart I am

emoji right now. Yes, he's so happy. He's like, Nicky's cool. He plays basketball. He wants my phone number. Like everything is coming up, Luke. Yes. If you exchange numbers with a potential new friend, when do you text to them? Like, what is your move here? How long do you wait? Do you have a protocol? Do you have any feelings about this? Oh, this is a good question. I feel like, I feel like either, I mean, I think immediately, right, you just text each other to be like, we have each other. Sure. And then you text if you have first, for a specific reason. So like, you know, oh, there's a new brewery down the street. Do you want to go hang out there for something? Yeah. Yeah. So maybe, you know, maybe a few days later for a reason, because you want to

like start the friendship to be real, you got to keep it up, right? Yeah, I love this standard. I agree with that. I would definitely be like thinking about this, right? Like I would probably have a whole complex about like when you're supposed to text someone. Luke does not really have this complex. No, it's a ban. Yeah. And like, four or five days later, he hears that a band is going to be in town, and he's like, I'll text Nikki. So he ends up doing your suggestion. Exactly. A specific reason. Yeah. Yes. So he texts Nikki, and he's like, Hey, there's this show that I'm going to go to, like this band I'm going to see. Do you want to go? And Nikki's like, Oh, man, I totally would, but I'm going to be out of town. And Luke's like, Okay, but he feels like

a little hurt in his heart. Yeah, he's sad. He had a friend and his friend can't come. I know. But then the next week, Nikki texts him and is like, Do you want to go to a baseball game? And Luke is like, Yes. Yay. And so they go on their little date to the baseball game. They're like laughing, they're eating their hot dogs, they're like having their tall boys a beer, they would share a nacho, they're high fiving when the team scores. They're like, Luke is like, so nice. He's like, I love having a friend. For the next like many months, things are nice. They hang out when Nikki's in town, they like text about the baseball team. Things are going great. They go great all summer, all fall. In the winter, a little over a year after Luke and Max moved in,

a huge blizzard comes through and the power grows out. Okay. And Luke like goes over and knocks on Nikki's door, but Nikki's not home. He texts Nikki and is like, what do I do? Nikki doesn't respond. So he calls him. Nikki's like, what's up? And he's like, do you know how to turn the power back on like where the breaker is, right? Because there are usually those little switches that you can just flip. And Nikki's like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you need to flip this specific switch, but it's in the basement. And Luke's like, I thought we weren't allowed to go in the basement. And Nikki's like, Yeah, the door is in my like apartment. And like, you could, we're not supposed to go down there, but like you could if my door is

unlocked. But of course, Nikki's door is not unlocked. Right. Because he's not there. Yeah. So Luke like calls the property manager, the property manager, you know, comes out a few hours later, but then they're freezing, they're frustrated, they're cold. We will now zoom forward a few months. Zoom, zoom, zoom. Nikki gets a bike. He's like, he's like, Luke, help me get a bike. And Luke's like, this is my dream. My dream. He helps, he helps Nikki get a bike. And he helps him like fit it out. Right. So it's this like cool bike. And he's really excited about it. And the reason that Nikki gets a bike is that a new bike lane is going in, in their neighborhood that goes from like their neighborhood downtown. They're very excited. Yes. He and Nikki are becoming very

close. They go on a boys weekend to the lake together. To the lake. Wow. That's very romantic. Luke meets some of Nikki's friends. Oh, he has more people to hang out with. I know. And now like Nikki's friends are becoming his friends. One of Luke's friends like moves to the city and now they're in like a circle. Right. Oh, that's wonderful. Okay. But here's my question. Please. Where, where's Max and all of this? Max, you know, she's just hanging out. She's chilling with her friends. She's fine. Okay. Is she mad that like Nikki does not want to sleep with her? Yes. But like, she's fine. She'll live. All these boys are now in their little like boy hub. Right. They're like telling each other about who they're dating. They're a bro circle.

Yes. It is everything Luke could have possibly wanted. He's like, people come over to my house and hang out. We're having a great time. The new bike lane means that it's like really easy for people to get here. Like everything, this is great. Everything's turning up. Yes. But then a few months later, an organic coffee shop slash grocery store goes in across the street. Oh my goodness. And this is the kind of grocery store that has like five types of kombucha on. Oh, yeah. I know. I know the kind of grocery store. Yeah. Tell me what you know about it. I mean, it's going to have lots of different kinds of like vegan salads. Yes. Excellent, like dried fruit assortment. Yes. Many different kinds of cold brew. Uh-huh. Yes.

One of the things they're most excited about in this house is that they have a bunch of kinds of tinned fish there. Oh, yeah. Like a whole shelf of tinned fish. Yes. Yes. Do you anticipate a problem with this fancy coffee shop slash grocery store going in? I mean, look, they're often problems with new things going in, maybe because they want like parking instead of the bike lane or, you know, whatever. But we'll see what happens. The problem is, is that a couple of months after that, new shiny apartments are being built down the block. Of course. Yeah. It's all being gentrified. Yeah. Yes. This neighborhood is being rapidly gentrified. The houses on their block, which have been full of like families that have lived there for a long time, are going up for

sale for huge prices. Yes. How do you feel? Well, if I was Luke and Max, I would start worrying about my, my own rent situation. Yes. And by this point, like they've been here a long time. They've been in this house for two years, three years, probably at this point. And every year that they've been there, their rent has gone up a totally manageable amount, right? Like it's gone up 100 bucks, 50 bucks, like easy. But now the neighborhood is getting fancy. Yeah. And it's getting expensive. And so Luke is panicking. Yes. He texts Nikki and he's like, have you gotten your rent increased notice for the next year? Nikki's like, no, I haven't, dude. Like I haven't gotten it yet. They usually send it like closer to the year mark, right? So like, I haven't

seen it. And Luke is like, you know, this guy's politically active. He's like, let me learn my tenant rights. Yes. Yes. The city he lives in, like, thank God, has a law that requires a 90 day heads up. If the rent is going to be increasing more than a certain amount, let's say like 10%, right? So he's like, if I don't hear before the 90 day mark, they can't raise it more than 10%. And he's like, I need to know what is going to happen here because it's hard to find an apartment. Right. 110 days out. Luke is like emailing the property manager. He's like, please, please, please, where is my rent notice? Why is he asking? Tell me more. Why do you think he shouldn't ask? Why would he remind the property manager about this? That's a great question.

If he knows that it has to be 90 days, you just don't say anything. Yes. But Luke is like, he's so anxious about this. He's like, I just want to know what my rent is, right? Like, I just want to know if I have to find a new apartment or not. Colleen, he's asking Nikki. Nikki's like, I haven't heard anything. Finally, he gets the property manager on the phone at like 92 days until their lease ends, right? And he's like, listen, I'm freaking out. I need to know what our rent for next year is going to be. Like, what's going on? And the property manager is like, you don't need to worry. Like, you're good. You'll get the letter in a few weeks. Luke feels like relieved. He plants his

little garden for the next season. He like tries to relax. How do you feel? I mean, I'm concerned that he's reminding people of this. I feel like this again is a situation where you just keep quiet and remind them about it after the fact. Like, oh, too bad. Yeah. So now I'm worried for Luke. 30 days before their lease expires, he gets the mail from the property manager. Their rent is going up 40% for zero. So he like brings it to Max and he's really upset and Max is like, dude, I can't afford that. Like, we're going to have to start looking. We can't pay 40% more in rent, even if like the neighborhood is getting easier to live in. Like, that's insane. Luke is like, it's not just insane.

It's illegal. Like, they can't do this. And Max is like, landlords don't know the phrase can't do this. Like, they don't care. What do you think they should do here? That's when you call your friendly non-profit landlord tenant organization and say, give me language to tell my landlord that they cannot do this. What Luke does is he tries to call the property manager, but it goes to voicemail. Yes. And he's pissed. And so he texts a picture of the renewal thing to Nikki. And Nikki responds with a thumbs up emoji. That seems like a strange way to respond. Yes. And Luke is like, this is extremely

fucking weird. Like, he's like, why would he respond this way? But he's also like, you know, Nikki's busy. He's traveling for work. Like, maybe he just accidentally, maybe he meant the thumbs down emoji and just accidentally sent the thumbs up emoji. He's like, part of my sorrow is that like, I might not get to live next to Nikki anymore. And he sit back this thumbs up. And he's like, I thought I had a good relationship with the property manager who told me I was quote, all good. Yeah. And then he's not answering his phone, which I mean, Luke really should not have called him. This is, this is when you start doing things and writing. Yes. At this point, Luke realizes, I need to be doing this and writing. And so he

goes to the like tenant rights, you know, whatever nonprofit in his city. And most of these places have like standard language on their website. So he's like, great, he copies the standard language on the website. He sends it in an angry email to the property manager that's like, you know, according to this law, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He doesn't threaten to sue, but it's like the kind of email that is like, we will sue you if we have to, right? He's like, I feel betrayed. I have every right to send this email. This is insane. He sends a screenshot of the email to Nikki. And Nikki is like, this sucks so much. Like I really don't want you to move. Like I hate this. The property manager emails Luke back and is basically like

tough shit. Like this is what we're doing. And Luke responds with like the fire of a thousand sons. He's like, absolutely not. Like you cannot kick us out of this house. You cannot raise our rent. Like there are laws. You have to follow the laws. And again, he shows Nikki and Nikki is like, this sucks. Like this is a terrible way for them to deal with this. And then he's like, but like as your friend, I want you to like be a little careful here because like renting is really rough right now. And these guys do have like blacklists. He's like, you don't want to get blacklisted from renting apartments in this city. And like the rent in this neighborhood is going up. So it's not entirely their fault. I mean, yes, you don't want to get

blacklisted, but also it is entirely their fault. They're the ones who are choosing to raise the rent 40% and are doing it illegally. Yeah. Luke is like, it is literally their fault. Like it's literally illegal. And eventually after like a lot of pushing and a lot of yelling, the property manager is forced to extend their lease by like at the old rate for 90 more days, right? So at least now they have like time. Yes. So Luke tells Max, like we have 90 days to find a new apartment. And he like tells her frustratedly. He's like, I talked to Nikki and he just like doesn't seem concerned about this at all. And Max is like, well, yeah, he's like always traveling. He makes a shit ton of money. He's just going to pay whatever they tell him to pay. And Luke's like, yeah, but

like friendship. And Max is like, well, I mean, you said it yourself, he's a landlord's dream. And there's like something in the way she says it, like maybe it's the tone or the inflection and it like plants a little seed in Luke's mind. And that seed is a question which he voices to Max. And the question is, is he a landlord's dream or is he my fucking landlord? This is what I was going to ask. Tell me why. He sounded suspicious from the beginning. Like first of all, in a duplex, often the person who lives next door is the landlord. He didn't mind the rules. He made you wanted the landlord to be asked permission for the rules. And the like having a home base and then moving around. That seems a little questionable. And also

he didn't care about the raising the rent, which even if you're making plenty of money, people care about those things. Yes. Max is like, oh my god, it all makes sense. That's why he wouldn't sleep with me. He's our landlord. And Luke is like, no, that is not the problem here. What do you do? That's when you do some research to see who is actually your other work. How are you going to do that research? Well, I mean, this depends totally on like the city and what the rules are. But usually you can look up who owns a property. Yes, I will say like for people who need to know this, most cities that are not places very populated by celebrities have public databases of like individual properties,

right? Like who lives at this address and the database will tell you who owns this address. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Who owns this address? Luke does not know this, obviously. Right. He googles his own address. And what he finds is the Zilla listing. And the Zilla listing has like the purchase date and the price, which was like $12 when it was bought last and the square footage and like property tax records, but like nothing else. He starts, he like wants to dig further, but he's like not good at research. He's like, nothing in my life has prepared me for this. He's like, I can't find anything. He's like, you know, who's good at research? Max. Max looks up all her hinge dates and what their salary is and where they live. Max is able to find everyone's information.

And so he goes to Max and he's like, Max, please like help me figure out who owns our house. And Max is like, absolutely. I'm happy to. So Max does her little like, you know, novice FBI training research and Max comes back and it's like the house is owned by an LLC. She's like, so, you know, it could be Nicky's, but it could also be anyone's. Yeah. And Luke's like, well, what's the LLC? And Max is like, I don't know. It sounds like some town in Ohio. And Luke is like, yeah, but like, what is it exactly? And Max is like, oh, it's Tupelo. And Luke is like Tupelo, like Uncle Tupelo, the Willco song, Nicky's favorite band. And Max is just like staring at him. She's like, I think that you might be like losing it.

And Luke is like, Nicky has a Willco tattoo. Like he loves Willco. And Max is like, okay, do you think Luke's being insane? How do you feel? I mean, I was going to ask what is the name of the LLC because people do name these things after like, I don't know. Yes, their favorite band. Wait, so you don't think he's being insane? No, I don't think he's being reasonable. I think he's being reasonable. You believe that he's the landlord than Nicky's the landlord? I mean, I think further research needs to be done, but it's currently leading in that direction. Luke is like, I also think more research needs to be done, but also I don't know how and I need to

focus on finding a new place to live with Max. A couple weeks later, some mail of Nicky's ends up in their mailbox, which happens all the time if you have ever rented. And in the stack of mail that is Nicky's is like a Bernie Sanders mail address to the Tupelo company, a brochure for the baseball team and a bill addressed to the LLC. And Luke is like Bernie Sanders, our baseball team, will co three strikes you're out like this is Nicky. And Max is like, yes, he lives here. Like, of course, his mail comes here. That doesn't mean that he is the LLC owner. Yes, this is true. Luke is losing his mind. He is like, either I am losing it or my literal closest friend, my best friend owns the property that I live in and raised my rent by 40%.

And also has not told you about it for the past three years. Yes. And he's like, if I accuse my friend of being my landlord, that could ruin our friendship, right? He's like, but if I don't ask him if he's my landlord, and I believe it anyway, will that also ruin our friendship? He is not prepared for this. He's like, if this level of deception is afoot, did we even have a friendship? For Luke. Yes. What do you think? I mean, I think this is when you ask, Nicky, hey, do you happen to know who our landlord is? I love this strategy. What Luke does is talk at Max about it until it is time for them to move out. Yes, yes. And Max is like, I just like, I don't know what to tell you, dude, like I've pulled

the stuff I can pull. That's all I've got. Also, Max does not care because she has to move out no matter what. Truly does not care. Nicky never slept with her. Yes. She's like, she's like, this has answered my only question, which is why would he sleep with me? And so I'm not, I don't care anymore. Do you have any other levels like levers that you could pull to figure this out in your head, or that you would like to pull? I mean, there's probably more research you could do. But I think at this point, they need to have a conversation. So the problem here is that Nicky is not coming back from his like work trip until right before they would have to move out. And Luke is like, I want to confront him. He's like, my friendship is at stake. Like, I love this man,

and he's secretly breaking my heart. Like, I just want the truth. I have to ask him. And Max is like, do not ask this man if he is our landlord before we move out. Because if he is our landlord, you are going to lose us our security deposit. And Max is like, my interest is in our security deposit. Yes. We are like very close to the end. How do you feel? What would you like to do? Whose side are you on? I mean, at this point, I'm sort of, I'm on Max's side only because I feel like Luke has to keep his roommate's interests at heart when it's about the money. And if Nicky was not out of town, I would say they could have a conversation about it. But that's a hard conversation to have over text. Yeah, I think are you my landlord is the conversation you should have

in person generally. Luke is like, okay, Max, I agree with you. Like, I will not bring this up until we are moved out. Like, I promise. And he's like, I'm not even sure if I want, he's like, I don't know. I don't know how to have this conversation. Like, I'll just wait. We are now at the final update. The final update is that on move out day, Nicky was like there to see them off. So they like got all their stuff loaded, you know, that he helped them carry their boxes to the U-Haul. And Luke is like waving, right? Like, waiting in the car for Max to join him. And she like hopped in. And she's like, I did it. I asked him if he owned the house. And what did he say? Well, the question is, you're Luke.

Do you want to know? Yes. You do? Yes, absolutely. Unfortunately, Luke did not want to know. He decided that it was more important to him that the power of their friendship stay intact than he know whether or not this man was his landlord. He just wants a friend. Oh my goodness. But he will always wonder now. I know, right? Wouldn't you wonder for the rest of your life? I would wonder for the rest of my life. I mean, I would sort of be convinced for the rest of my life. I would not really wonder. I would just be convinced forever that A, this man was my landlord. And B had been keeping it for me for years. And then C raised my rent to force me to move out. Yes. I think what happens here eventually is like, you get too drunk and

are like jokingly like, haha, you're my landlord to your best friend. Yes. I cannot believe. I cannot believe. I know. He was just like, I don't want to know. I don't want to know. I have obtained like pinky promise crossed my heart swear from the people who sent this in that if he finds out, we will be told. But we don't know. Okay. First of all, I cannot believe that Luke did not ever ask him. He moved back and was like helping them move. You don't have that conversation. And then I can't. Wow. Well, also, if I was Max, I would have just told him to write out. Yeah. I would not say. Yes. I asked him. I would say I asked him. Yeah. There's like something kind of beautiful about the fact that Max like knew enough to be like, I don't think this man

really wants to know. Yeah. I mean, Max had lived with Luke for the past few years. He knew him well enough to. Yes. To be like, I will protect you from yourself. But also that means he lives with someone who knows the answer. I mean, this is like when, you know, people are having a baby and one person finds out the sex of the baby and the other person doesn't. You only have nine months to keep that secret, right? It's usually it's impossible. Nobody keeps it. So how do you keep that secret forever? Yes. Especially like if you're Max, you're going to have to see him, right? He's going to come over. He's going to come over and hang out with Luke. I know. He has been the landlord too. I am convinced that he is. I am also convinced, but we have no evidence. I mean,

we have a lot of evidence. We have a lot of evidence. We just don't know for sure. We don't know for sure. That's true. Wow. Oh my goodness, Luke. I know. Well, Jasmine, thank you so much for coming on Normal Gossip. It was a joy to have you. I hope you had fun. Thank you so much for having me. This was a delight. And you have to promise that if you ever find out, you have to tell me absolutely promise. I am like personally dying. I was like, send me the address. Yeah. Yes. I will find out. Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normal gossip at defector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 gossip.

If you love this podcast and want us to keep making it, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at Normal Gossip. You can follow Kelsey on all social media at McKinney-Kelsey. This podcast was produced by Alex Sujong Laughlin. Diana Moskovitz is our story editor. Justin Ellis is defector's projects editor. Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are defector's business guys. Tom Lei is our editor-in-chief. Jay Tolviera is our production assistant. Dan McQuade runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our showart. Thank you to Israel Deramola for your help on this episode.

Thanks to the rest of the defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radio Topia. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney. I'm Rebecca, and remember, you did not hear this from me. From PRX.