North Korea News Podcast by NK News - Eunhee Park: Surviving North Korea and reclaiming identity in the South

Episode Date: April 29, 2026

Content warning: This episode contains discussion of sexual violence. NK News Data Correspondent Anton Sokolin kicks off the podcast this week by discussing the long-running debate over the transfer of wartime operational control, or OPCON, from the U.S. to South Korea, following comments made by U.S. Forces Korea Commander Gen. Xavier Brunson. He also examines […]

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visit careerrisk.com slash solutions today. Hello listeners and welcome to the NKNews podcast. I'm your host, Jacko's Wetsuit, and this is being recorded on Tuesday, the 28th of April, 2026. I'm joined at the studio by Anton Sokolin. Anton, welcome back on the show. Hey, Jacob, we have a lot of ground to cover today. We do, we do.

For the listeners, a little bit of background. I lived in Korea for three years in the 1990s. I left at the end of 1999, and I came back in February 2004, and around that time I started hearing about this word I'd never heard about before called OpCon, or short for operational control. And this was during the Rul Muayon administration. It was very much a hot potato, hot political potato here in South Korea about Korea getting its operational control over its own military back from the United States, which had held onto it since the Korean War under an agreement between in the two countries. And now I understand that this operational, wartime operational control,

because peacetime operational control was handed back, I think even before 2004, a long time ago, if I'm not mistaken. So the wartime operational control is now scheduled to be given back to South Korea in 29, which is three years from now. If that does happen, and I want more details from you moment. But if that does happen, it'll be almost exactly 25 years ago since I first heard the term op-con and the idea of Korea needs to get its op-con back for reasons of national sovereignty, national dignity, etc. So tell me why it's in the news again now, Anton. Well, Jacko, like you said, it's been 25 years. It's going to be 25 years since you've heard the word for the first time. And for me, it will be probably over a decade since I've been here in this word. And it's been a very

hot topic over over two decades now. Everyone's talking about it because clearly it's a and matter of national security. It's very important. For example, to a person who comes from Russia like me, for example, this is even unthinkable. That's another country. Exercises some sort of even partial control over your armed forces. This is just an imaginable.

And of course, for many people, for many observers, this is an important topic. And right now we are hearing some sort of like sunset kind of goals, some sort of deadline when it's supposed to happen. Yeah, and this is set by. Commander of U.S. forces, General Xavier Brunson, who's also the head of the United Nations Command. And I should point out to listeners there that it's long been accepted that the return of Opcon to the Republic of Korea would happen. The question was when, what would be the deciding point? And for a long time, that deciding point was certain markers. It was things like

interoperability, et cetera, et cetera. But now we have General Brunson saying, it's a time point. It's 2029. Exactly. So it's a deadline, right? We were already past several stages of it. So there was initial, like you said, operational control, then there was full operational capability. And now we are going to full mission capability. And then, of course, now we're talking about the full control because clearly some South Korean government wants to do that. For example, Ijimion, he has also placed it in the center of his agenda. A lot of people, a lot of presidents from his party have made that a big issue. Yeah. In this case, sovereignty and the right to exercise control over your armed forces is important for that particular party. If you're talking about

the opposition, of course, it's going to be a little bit different, it's going to be a reverse stance because they are more closely aligned with the US, and hence the presence of US troops or UN troops associated with the US is important here, and hence they would love to keep it. But the current administration is currently working on actually getting the control back. And, well, honestly, this is not really my area of expertise. I do not cover this, but from my personal perspective, I think it's a welcome move. And if it happens, of course, South Korea will have a lot of challenges to deal with because South Korea will be left one-on-one with North Korea.

But there is also China, of course. We know that USFK wants to work and pay more attention to China these days. Then there will be also challenges of modernizing the South Korean army to meet those challenges and be able to push back against North Korea in case of any provocations or anything, there is not going to be any shielding from the U.S. There is another problem, of course, intelligence sharing. And recently it's also been a hot issue in South Korea when allegedly the U.S. stopped sharing Intel with South Korea.

And it's another big deal. And if it happens, then it raises certain questions about South Korea's capability to detect and analyze and react upon certain things, right? So when it comes down to, for example, North Korean missile launches that will become crucial and we'll have to keep a very close eye on these developments. And it also raises the question of if there were ever to be another land war on the Korean financial land. And if you have, yeah, let's hope it's not because we live here.

And we have the South Korean army under the operational control of, you know, its own operational control of South Korea. And then the United Nations command led by the U.S. forces, you know, how do they work together? when they're both in charge of their own military. But that's also where this was showing the limits of our knowledge. There's also a thing called Combined Forces Command, and the commander of the Combined Forces Command is the same as the commander of the UN Command, General Brunson. So that's where the U.S. and South Korean armies work together,

and that's where interoperability is a very important word there, and all sorts of things like command and control, et cetera. So I think before we embarrass ourselves any further by showing the limits of our operations, Let's get back to something that I really know. Yeah, let's get back to something that we really know. And that is that for many decades, gosh, for many, many decades, there has been something in Pyongyang called the Friendship Hospital. And if a foreign diplomat or foreign visitor to North Korea gets sick or has an accident

gets injured, they end up in the Friendship Hospital. And now I understand there's to be another, a new Friendship Hospital opening up in the area of one son near the Inn or near the Kalma Resort. And Russia's playing a part in the construction. building of this. Tell us about this. Right. So big delegation, several big delegations actually visit North Korea over the past week from Russia, right? And one of the big projects was the construction of this friendship hospital. So they broke ground. And right now the delegation, so probably I need to say a few words about the location, right? So it's the Kulma. So it's in the Kalman Resort?

It's by it. It's pretty much, pretty much in the area. And the fact is that it's a big area. North Korea opened it last year, invited lots of Russia. Not so many, but there were some Russian tourists. And so far, Russians have been the only foreigners that could enter the area. Mostly it's for North Koreans and Russians potentially probably could house also Chinese tourists if Chinese tourism ever resumes. Questions of health care, they probably were very acute at that point because they should have thought through that if you're going to accommodate a lot of foreign tourists,

they will need medical health care, right? They will need certain services. But this is nothing new, right? I remember when the Marshiggyong ski resort opened up more than 10 years ago, there were talks of, if you're skiing at Marshigong and you break your leg, you may have to be helicoptered to the French Apostle in Pyongyang, which is one good reason to think about safety.

Maybe don't go to Marsing. There we go. And it's not really far from Wansan, right? So usually Russian tourists, when they go to Lansan or Mashignan, they stop by at Yathegoyan. their locations and etc. So that is important. And that is understanding.

We cannot assume that this hospital is going to be serving only foreign tourists. That is unlikely. It would be unfa-fasible. Yeah. And according to the Russian health ministries read out about the opening. They are also going to provide services to local people. And I think this is also, this comes to an important junction when North Korea is trying to revamp its health care system, build more hospitals, of course, upgrade those lackluster

regions, backwater regions. Part of the 2010. 2010 project. 2010 project, right? And it only makes sense if this hospital is going to help patients from around the area. And if I'm not mistaken, but I think the readout mentioned hundreds of thousands of people living nearby, would be able to access this hospital. One son is one of the biggest cities in North Korea. Clearly houses a lot of population.

and having a modern medical facility there is of extreme importance. A burning question is, are there any plans to staff this hospital with Russian doctors or Russian medical? Probably too early to talk about that. Harkas, that wasn't mentioned the reading. Yeah, what we know now is that they broke ground on it. There is Russian participation. I don't know to what extended participation goes because they said that they will participate. So it's a RRK-R-R-R-F friendship hospital.

But if we're talking about their participant, it doesn't mean that they're are going to design the hospital or they already designed it. Or are they sending their construction brigades? Is it also a thing, right? Probably not. But stuffing it with modern medical equipment that I can believe, because that is pretty much out of question. If you remember, the new Pyongyang Hospital also was...

Which took many years to build. Yeah, we took many years to build. And Russia actually played the role, Putin himself, right? Said that, well, look, our North Korean comrades are asking us for help because they cannot finish it or something. So give them what they need. And I assume a certain, a similar level of involvement could be observed in that particular hospital as well. So it's a, it's a good thing.

There will be tourists going there. There will be nurse Koreans going there. Now, of course, we know that nurse current medical system, even though it's pretty relatively good. And I'm saying, Professor Andri Langoff, it's relatively good for a poor country. Now we know also certain the dark sides of the medical system there, that it's a lot of corruption is involved. And of course, even though it's a universal coverage, but you don't really get covered, right? You sometimes have to buy medicine on your own, bribe doctors to get an operation. So we still have to see how it's actually going to function in practice.

Now, Anton, a burning question for me is, should we interpret this as a sign that Russia, North Korea, cooperation and that the relationship in general is deeper and, you know, more solid than, you know, we've heard a lot about, oh, it's very, it's transactional, it's of the moment, it's ad hoc, it's largely about the war in Ukraine. But opening a big project like this, it's a longer term thing. What do you think? Let's put it simply. Northcoe is clearly interested in keeping Russia close as long as possible,

because it just literally found a new patron that can provide certain things that were unimaginable before, right? So, for instance, like we have all these construction projects, like skyscrapers in Pyongyang, And we are seeing these hospitals, we're seeing modernization, we're seeing cars. We are seeing a lot of wealth flowing into North Korea. Well, military cooperation is key there, but North Korea wants to make sure that these inflows of wealth, they do not end with the war. And having this mutual project, joint projects, right?

With Russia, they only can cement the partnership. And it makes sense. It's, of course, hospital, it's still way short of building a full-flesh, for example, nuclear facility. build a nuclear plan that's that your relationship is sealed for decades. And that's what probably, well, I think it could be in the cars with Russia later if it's interested. For Russia, Russia is getting a new ally, a stable ally. Kim Jordan has already pledged multiple times that it's going to be with Russia. So in the situation, when Russia finds it's more and more

isolated from the West, having another ally, it just makes sense. Of course, it all can wind down And easily, it could go for two, three years, four years, right? And then it just gets back to somewhat normal. And maybe Kim Jong-in chooses a more independent course of action. So we cannot speculate about that too much. But indeed, it does indicate that Russia and North Korea have a very deep level of cooperation. Their friendship is strong for now. And probably now we have to cover the military aspect because just naturally leads to it.

That's right. Exactly. So Kim Jong-un last weekend, the same weekend, there's a very weekend. Anzac Day, when Australians and New Zealanders remember their soldiers that fell not just in the Korean War, but all wars. Kim Jong-un went to inaugurate a new cemetery, new memorial place with an unusual name for the North Korean soldiers who have fought in Russia on the side of Russia against Ukraine. Right. The museum has a name for soldiers who fought overseas military operation. They call it like this, right? So, yeah, why is this important? Well, there's several things, right? It's all about symbolism. And just to break it down, on top level Russian officials visited the place.

It was the chief of Duma, Duma, as the lower chamber of the Russian parliament. Russia has a bicameral parliament system, so is the lower chamber, and the defense minister himself. None of them are actually military people, even though he's a defense minister. It doesn't mean he's a finance guy. But anyway, he was appointed for different purposes. You can find some other podcast describing who that guy is. We're not going to tackle that.

The point is two high-level Russian officials visited it. They kneeled in front of the, you know, the flower wrath, floral wrath, and laid them and joined Kim Jong-in on this ceremony. They opened the defense minister of Russia and the North Korean defense minister. They actually inaugurated. They cut the inauguration of the ribbon of the place. So there was a lot of theatrics, a lot of symbolism and wealth. Here's several things. Russia does go out of its way to celebrate and glorify the North Korean contribution to the war.

Probably North Korea appreciates it because for North Korea domestically it sends a message that we are strong. We have a strong ally and we are capable. We are modern. And several, another thing that really caught our eye is the fact that this cemetery slash memorial has multiple graves of North Korean soldiers that actually died in action. We're killed in action in the Russian region, of course. Right. And now we also see this memorial wolves with multiple names carved on them. And the assumption is that these are the names of the people who were killed.

And back of the napkin calculation is that over 2,000 people, North Carolina lost about 2,000 more than 2,000 soldiers. I know the precise number, but I'm not going to tell you read the article. But over 2,000 people were killed. And we know it for a fact, which actually aligns pretty neatly with well. and the South Korean estimates that placed the number of casualties at 1.5K to 1.5K to 2000, something like that. And it pretty much confirms the estimates. Another thing that this memorial boasted was the trophy equipment that the North Koreans and the Russians captured from Ukraine. And I'm talking about Western equipment. So we have seen all those. Abrams tanks, leopard tanks,

lots of British and I think Turkish APCs, APC, personal careers. We've seen French-wield tanks, you know, those AMX, the famous ones. So it's all there. And of course, we're not talking about that, like, wow, North Korea is going to look at Western equipment and learn something fancy and, like, modernizes military.

It doesn't work like this. It's pretty much this weaponry that they have. have it on display. It's unused. You cannot use it. It's out of use. But it's destroyed. But still the message there started this kind of section with the symbolism and I'm going to end it with it because symbolism prevails and the North Korea with this equipment can demonstrate that it's a strong capable army. It demonstrates to its own people that they have prevailed over so-called Nazis, Ukrainian forces, their lackeys or their supporters, and send the additional message to his domestic population that, well, we're doing great.

And this is, of course, of importance, and it only serves one purpose, right, as strength as the regime, its military capability. Because in any war, information warfare is extremely important. And now we have entered the age where the lines are blurred, And information warfare is the same warfare as like military warfare. And when you mean comes to controlling the narrative, North Korea is probably doing pretty great. And that's where we're going to have to stop there, Anton. After the break for our listeners, we have, I have been a long interview with North Korean refugee author, Ernie Park,

with her book The Courage to Die. And a brief announcement to our listeners that this will be my last time recording the regular weekly podcast for NK News. You'll have a new host from next week. But I will stick around to do monthly podcast interviews as a guest host. So you haven't seen the last of me yet, listeners. Thank you very much. It's been an honor to be hosting the NK News podcast for the last eight plus years. It's a long time.

So thank you and listen again next time. Okay, so our long interview today is with Ernie Park, and she is a North Green refugee and an author, public speaker. She's recently published her memoir. It's called The Courage to Die. Her work, she has a clear foot. person account of her experience growing up as a child in North Korea, escaping and then rebuilding a new life here in South Korea.

And you can find her on Instagram at North Korea-N-H-E-E-N-H-E-E-N-H-E-E, North Korea-Thrie, all one word on Instagram. Ernie, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. I know we've been talking about you coming on the podcast for many years, and here you finally are, so I'm very glad that you're here. Thank you for having me. So you're born originally in one son in North Korea, on the east coast of North Korea.

And it's almost 30 years ago, right? But in the 1990s? 1990. Okay, so just a few years before the death of Kim Il-Song and a few years before the arduous march, the big period of family. Exactly, yeah. So that's sort of the opening.

Can you explain how did you choose the title of your book, The Courage to Die? It sounds a bit dark. Mm-hmm. I mean, because when I decided to leave that country, I left with the courage to die. That's why I made this title for my book. Right, because you thought, you know, I might not live, I might die, but anything is better than staying here.

Is that sort of the thinking process? Yes, yes. We only live once. So like, why not? I mean, there is no hope. So I decided to leave with the courage to die. Whatever it takes, whatever it comes to death, I would figure it out my way to get the freedom. How old were you at that time?

21. That's a big, big, I mean, you know, usually at 21 people are deciding where shall I go to university or what kind of job or who will I date. But you are making the decision to live or die. But actually that thought came from at the age of 17. That was the year, like when I was 17, that was the first time that I watched the South Korean dramas illegally and secretly. And I found the freedom, the concept of freedom, to express myself as a woman.

But it wasn't easy to escape from my hometown, one son, which is east-cost of North Korea. So it took me four years. Four years. From that moment of watching a South Korean drama until finally you crossed the border into China. And you went from China to Laos and Thailand before finally reaching South Korea. Yeah. So many stories of fleeing North Korea exist. I think maybe my first book written by North Korean Refugee was The Aquariums of Pyongyang by Gang Cholhuan,

but there are many of them now. At that time it was very rare. So why did you decide to publish your story? And what do you hope that readers can learn from your book that they won't learn from another book? So the differentiation from my book and other North Carolina factories, I can say I vividly explained about the experience in South Korea, which is free country. Most of our readers read about a story of ending of escaping. But my book, it elaborates more story further more than escaping. For me, escaping, like as for every North Country factor is escaping is just not ending

of our story. It's the beginning. It's a new beginning. It's a new beginning of the life. And it wasn't easy for me to settle in South Korea as a North. Korean anti-factor. That's why I wanted to deliver my story vividly what I had been through in South Korea because I learned that freedom isn't free. That's what I want to deliver to readers. Like freedom isn't free, but freedom has a lot of beautiful burdens that if unless you take responsibility, you will lose your freedom easily. Beautiful burdens. That's a good phrase. Now, you write about growing up in North Korea amidst divorce. family mental illness and frequent moves from house to house.

So how do those experiences shape you? I mean, North Korea itself, like, there are a lot of toughness. It's a war-jorn to survive day by day. But because of the experience with my family dynamics, I think I became tougher and stronger and became very independent as an early age because I learned that nowadays I'm watching a lot of videos, related attachment issues. Have you ever heard of it?

I've heard about it. I don't know much about it. There are several types, but one is anxious attachment type, which means like the children didn't have consistent love, so they blame themselves. They are not enough to receive love. But my case is avoid an attachment type, which means like you cannot trust anyone. Because because of the childhood I had been through, like, the my, my, my, As I described, my grandmother just suddenly the grandmate and then sent to the orphanage.

That's how I end up in the orphanage for five years. And I think as a young age, I decided not to feel my emotions. And then I decided like to, I think I learned how to suppress my emotions and then think about how to survive that kind of environment. So with that kind of family dynamics, I became very tough woman and independent woman, I can say. Yes, you mentioned the orphanage where you spent five years, and you said you describe it as a place of control, not a place of care. What did a typical day in the orphanage look like,

and how did you cope with hunger and the strong discipline? I mean, what is the best way to explain about the orphanage in life? is like military base as a young age. For children. Like I was, I was a son there at the age of 10 or 11 years old. And we had to wake up at 6 or 5.30 in summer. And then there were like a gathering march event that we had to participate and maybe 30 minutes running the playground. And after that, we march to towards the, what is the restaurant?

The cafeteria. Cafeteria. And there are like, we are served just 100 grams of the grains and cornflower rice. And after maybe breakfast, we went to the classroom to study about Kim Dictators, all the histories. The lives of Kim Jong-il. Yes. For 30 minutes. And then it starts maybe the subject, the subject starting at 6 and 7.30 and then finished around 1.000.

and then finished around 1 p.m. And after that, we went to the cafeteria to have the same meal, like just two or three pickles, and along with 100 grams of the corn rice, mixed up with the green vegetables like that. And then we also had to go to classroom again to practice what we've learned in the morning, but it's all materials related, the Gim's worship.

So there wasn't science, geography, chemistry, mathematics, that kind of thing? No, I mean, there are kind of like subjects exist, but there are a lot of events that we had to participate at the event. We had to memorize all the materials of Kim Dictators. So most of the time, we study about Kim's histories. Because unless you pass that exam, you can't take, you can go up to the other level of your studying.

Right. Now, why did your family decide to put? you in the orphanage? To be honest, I don't know. I was too young. I didn't have any autonomy for me. And my grandma just brought me to the orphanage. Were your parents still alive at this time?

No, my parents got divorced when I was four, which was very unusual in North Korea. And my mom became mental patient. So you were living with your grandparents? So from my maternal grandparents. And when I was 10 or 11, she just brought me to the orphanage. And then I didn't have any autonomy, like which place I wanted to leave. I was just a little goal. But after maybe five years old, I couldn't ask her.

But meantime, I explained it in my book that, why didn't you bring me here? And she didn't explain. She just started crying. I think I assumed that my grandparents didn't have enough money to raise me. They didn't have the resources yet. I think they decided to put me there because the orphans can at least have a free meal and a free education. Now, as you said, those years made you tougher, stronger, and they built your will to live. What are some of the strengths or the skills from that time that still help you today here living in South Korea?

What are some things you can do today thanks to your difficult time in the orphanage? I mean, a lot. Because of that experience that I had in orphanage, I know how to survive from nothing. When I came to South Korea, I was alone still. I don't have any family members. But because of the survivor skill, I learned how to survive from nothing. I could rebuild my life in South Korea by using that skills that I've learned in North Korea and orphanage. Would every young North Korean who goes to an orphanage learn the same skills that you did? Or do you think you are maybe unusual or special in that way?

I mean, let's put it this perspective. Everyone, every student's learn same curriculums. Yes. But some of them are extraordinary people. So I can say maybe everyone is from North Korea, but everyone has different skills. So I can say maybe I might be different than other people from North Korea. That's fair enough. Now, you studied hard, you did well in school with your classes,

even the class is about the Kim's life. But you met barriers related to your family, Songbun, and also issues related to bribery. Tell us a little bit about that and how those experiences taught you about opportunity and merit, what merit means in North Korea. Merit. I mean, it's all comes from Songbun.

It's back to bloodline, right? So who is your father? Who is your grandfather? Who's your mother? And what did he do during the Japanese time? That's what's important, right? Yes, yes, exactly. But my grandfather was born in South Korea.

I think he was born in Gyeongsang province. But I didn't, I was too young to ask which city she's from. But back then, South Korea was a very poor country. So he was born in 1932. Yes. So it was a very poor country. All right. So he was 18 when the war started, the Korean War.

18, yes, yes. But he was in China. Because he, when he was two years old, his family immigrated to China and then settled in China. That's how she came to North Korea during the war. So obviously, my son-bon wasn't that great because he lived, in China, which is a little better than North Korea. And then he has a little bit different experiences. So he was sent, even if he fought in the war, my grandfather fought in the war, he was sent.

On the North Korean side. North Korean side. But because he had the experience, he lived in China. He speaks perfect Mandarin. So he was always supervised. And then he was always, what is the like, watched by the government. So they didn't trust him. Yeah, yeah.

He was sent to very rural. area in one son and then one day when the electricity off, he was working at the electric pot. At the power plant? Yes, yes. And then he went up to fix it and got electrolyte. And then he had to cut his lift to arm, but there was no any compensation for it. And he suffered with that disabled, you know, life forever.

So from that, did you get this idea that? I can't succeed here that there is no such thing as merit which is earned. It's all merit that you receive from your parents or grandparents. So, I mean, as I mentioned in my book, there was the moment that I witnessed the injustice in North Korea while I was entering to university by passing all the exams. Like, it's a North Korean, the entrance of the exam to go to university. It's totally different than in a free country. You don't need to write about personal statement, all the things. You have to pass the certain points.

So firstly, I passed all the points, and then I was the only one in my school who owned that credit to go to university. But I didn't bribe, so eventually I got failed from the university. So you have to pass some kind of a test, and you also have to pay. Who would you be paying? I think to the maybe head of the university. Back then it was in 2008. And then that university was building, remodeling of that kind of buildings, and then they needed money.

But the government didn't fund at all. So the teachers, all the staff had to figure it out independently. And then the students, especially the students who wanted to go to that university, had to pay all the money. Were you asked for a specific amount of? money? That was $500. $500. $100. $500. U.S. dollars? Did they want it in foreign currency or did they want it? Foreign currency. Like we in Onsan, we use the dollars and in the Japanese. Japanese yen, Japanese one and then Korean one. And then sometimes, the North Korean one, and then sometimes like euros.

Oh. So my- What about Chinese renmin be? The Chinese one is from the north part of North Korea. But in Wonsan, it's nearby. Yeah. So we don't use Chinese. In Wrensan. Okay. So you were asked to give $500 or the equivalent in some kind of... Equivalence. Like you can buy a very small one-room house in rural area in Wonsan. Okay.

Which is a lot. Right. And did you want to pay the $500? I mean, I wanted to pay, but I had nothing to offer. I was a student. I was too young. But my grandparents heard that a specific amount of money they had to pay for my, you know, like the exams or whatever, but they didn't have enough money to pay for it.

And then also they didn't even ask to my rich uncle to pay for it. There was a rich uncle. Like they could definitely ask the money from my rich uncle. He could help me. However, my grandparents, like she is my grandparents' son. And then my grandparents didn't want to burden on him. So they didn't ask any help from my uncle and eventually I got filled. even if I was the top student in my school

and then that was the forced account that I realized that there are a lot of injustice. So now you're here in South Korea, you left North Korea? 14 years ago. 14 years ago. So now, looking back, was that the only possible way for you to succeed

or could there have been some other way that you could have succeeded in North Korea? There is no any way to succeed. I mean, it's a... Without the money? Yes, without money. What if you had asked your uncle yourself? My uncle just runs the goat farms and the fishery and I didn't want to work there.

And the only way there was the perception for women is the only way to have a better life is meet the guy who has a better sonbun. And then that which, yes, elaborates our songbun. That's the only way that we think that we could have better life in North Korea. Now, what was the turning point for you when you realized, okay, that's it, I'm 21, I'm got to go. And how did you prepare yourself for that journey mentally? That was when I was 17 after watching South Korea's dramas. So that was already the turning point? Turning point.

Okay, so for four years, you already decided one day I'm going to go. And then it was four years of preparation. Yes. Well, it wasn't easy. I mean, as you met a lot of North Carolina, factory is most of them are from north part of North Korea. Yeah, Hamgong, Bukto, Heesan. Yes.

Sure. So it's because it's easy to escape. But from my hometown, Woonsan, which is a nearby DMG, but which is the most dangerous route to escape. So I had to go to, I had to travel to the Hesan, firstly, but there was no freedom of movement. So I had to prepare. Did you ever try to move and somebody stopped you and said, where's your pass? You can't, you know, you can't go through, go home? So here is my story.

I had to bribe to buy the, what is the, Tongueingzum. Yeah, pass. It's a pass of freedom of movement pass. Mm-hmm, that one. I bribed the $20 or $30, and then it took two months to get it. And I bribed the train manager so I could stay with him in a small room in the train, so no one could check me. Because I was too young, 21 years old, and it was very obviously people can suspect me to go to China. Traveling alone.

Traveling alone. So I stayed there, but I bribed him firstly. Right. Did you ever meet any other refugees who came from Wonsan here in South Korea? Yeah, I have one or two friends who are same age from Wonsan. Oh, the same age. Okay. Because as you say, it's quite rare.

And I just kind of wonder statistically, I'm fascinated. Do you think more people from Wonson went through China or more people from one son took a boat and came or somehow crossed the DMZ? Forcedurat. So most of them still come through China. Even though it's difficult and it's a long journey, most of them still come through China. Okay.

Now in your book, at the end of the last chapter of part one, and it's a chapter called One Step Closer to Freedom and One Step Closer to Death, pages 115 to 120. It talks about the most difficult part of your journey, and it's very difficult reading. It's very painful. If you're comfortable, can we talk about that a little bit?

I think most a lot of readers, a lot of people who are already interested in North Korea, they know what we have to go through to get the freedom in China and human trafficking and the rape happening things. And when you say we, you mean North Korean women mainly. North Korean women, yeah. But for me, someone who is from one son had to confront that kind of. violent events since I left my hometown Wonsan to all the way to go to the Hesan, which is within the North Korea, because no freedom of movement. As I explained before, I had to bribe to the train manager to be with him,

not to be checked by other authorities. So I could be safe to go to the Hesan. But it took me 72 hours to go to. to Hesan from my hometown, I mean, which distance from Wonsan to Hesan, which equivalent from Seoul, maybe, Busan. Okay. So if you take a bullet train, it's just three hours away. But for me, in North Korea, it's like there are a lot of the electrics on and off and a lot of

stops there. So it took me three days. Three full days, yeah. Yeah. And 72 hours, I was sexually abused by that man who was 40 or 45 years, I think 50 years old. And then when I denied him, he said, you know, if you just step out of this door, you know, what happened? He threatened me. He threatened me.

So for 20, for 72 hours, I had to face that sexual abuse, that sexual harassment assault. And then also once I closed the border, the broker claimed that he is my. dad's a friend raped me. And then almost like I had to wait in the nearby north part of North Korea for two months. I don't know why he didn't just send me to China right away. Maybe he wanted to rain me, maybe before. So I had to be in Hesan for two months until I crossed China. But almost like a last day before I escaped across the China, he raped me. And then I lost my all hope and then called my dad. That's what happened to me.

And then I hate human beings and things. But my dad, what my dad said to me, instead of embraces me, he said, you already are in HESA nearby China. So forget about what happened and then figured it out what you can gain. So he pushed you to keep going. Yeah. So and then that happened to me. And after three days, the broker.

just like a sudden outer blue, like tonight, you would cross the, you cross the river to go to China. Wow. So because I think he, what is the rush to me to send to China because I was almost decided to go back to my hometown, not to eat at all. And I wanted to kill him. I wanted to destroy his life. So I think I would say like I wanted to go back to one son, my hometown. I didn't want to go to China and South Korea. Because he was afraid of maybe his safety,

since my uncle was, you know, like a very richest man, has a lot of connection with the authorities in North Korea. Then he maybe assumed that if I went back to maybe once and again, his life might be destroyed. And then after those three days, he raped me, and then he just suddenly sent me to China. So what made you decide to include these awful experiences in your book? And what do you hope that readers will learn from that, or understand from reading that?

I mean, there are a lot of stories since, you know, like Yon Mibok told about, you know, witnessing her mom was raped in front of her. And then I have a lot of North Korean women, like female friends who had this type of. of experiences living in China, got beaten by her husband and then sexually assaulted, the rape, the things. That's a story. But what I want to deliver to the audiences is that even if we experience that in humanity and then the worst part of human beings, we still carry our lives to be stronger to, you

know, survive in this country by enjoying the freedom we earned. and I hope a lot of people can take away what the freedom means and then what the value of freedom for them. Like every to move other city to move, you know, to travel other country isn't the normal thing for North Korean people. Sure, yeah. Yeah, I know it's often hard for victims or survivors of sexual assault to talk about or to write about these. And sometimes they even feel a guilt or a shame or even writing about it or talking about it again can relive that trauma in their minds. And how are you with that? Actually, first time that I felt my emotions while I was writing my story.

Because I came to South Korea alone and I didn't have any family to share what I had to go through to live in this country. And while I was writing my story at the first time, I think of that events at the first time. I cried so hard. Like, after, I think when I was in L.A., and then it felt so free. But it doesn't mean that it's all the traumas. I overcame from the traumas. I still have that trauma if maybe someone sexually tried to maybe. maybe close to me

and especially the man tries close to me I just put my wall first Yeah So you put up a wall Between yourself and yeah To protect myself Yeah yeah

So still I have to You know like work on this issues Like all maybe many North Korean women Has like suddenly sometimes I cry Or if I think about that happenings Yeah that was like It was but I can say it was very free.

Yeah. To write about it. Right about it. And then the first time just put myself in that situation again and what I had been through and what I had encountered with that broker and other trade manager things like at the first time. Like when I came to South Korea, even if it happened to me, I thought it's supposed to, you know, to be happened to get the freedom. I thought it was. This is the price.

Yeah, that's the price that I had to pay for to get the freedom. But now, like, looking back, it wasn't right. Yeah. No, of course, yeah. We know in the last 30 years since the Arjahus March, most refugees from North Korea have been women, many of them traveling alone or in small groups. Do you think that, you know, some form of sexual abuse,

is it, I mean, how common is it among North Korean women defectors? it's quite normal it's quite normal it's so common that it's normal because in North Korea inside North Korea because most of the women go to market to sell products

and then there are authority to check and to receive the fees and if maybe the woman is pretty the authorities target that woman and then instead of receiving the fee they request to have sex with them and then as a woman In North Korea, we think that's the price that we have to pay for surviving.

So you're saying it's not just normal for women who are escaping from it. It's just part of life in North Korea. Yeah, it's just we think that's the normal thing that we have to face in order to survive in North Korea. Looking back now, what kind of support, editorial support, emotional support or community support helped you to open up and to write and to share your experiences? There are a lot of supports, but because of the fact that I'm from North Korea, as you know, there are a lot of discrimination. Here in South Korea, here in South Korea, very looked down North Carolina factors,

and it's not easy to get a job because of the place where we are from. But because of the same fact that where we are from, there are a lot of people also support North Grandfactor factors. For example, maybe some volunteers teach English to North Grandfactor's. And some organizations have a program to educate North Grandfactor's like that. Like we've got Freedom Speakers International and Liberty in North Korea, a lot of organizations are supporting North Korean factors. So because of that, I think the occasions to meet the support,

the people who are from other countries and help North Carolina factors, I found, I can say I found my identity as a North Korean factor. Before, I was so ashamed, you know, to be a North Carolina factor because if I say I'm from North Korea, it's not easy to get a job. And then, then firstly, like, oh, we don't hire North Korean factors. We don't hire foreigners, even if we have South Korean citizens. Yeah. But after meeting a lot of volunteers, I realized that, I mean, there are some people who discredit us, but others support me because of the same reason.

So because of that love and, you know, unconditional support, I now, like, I can freely speak about my experience. And also by telling that story, I can say it's hills my. wounds. Does it become easier for you over time as you tell the story again and again? Or does it always bring up some feelings of pain? No, it's not easy. Especially the sexual harassment and rape events, I didn't talk about it at all in the past. But I already mentioned in my book.

So it was my first time to reveal what I had been through while I was escaping from one son to his son. Because there are a lot of the story of North Korean women got raped and people already know that stuff. But my main message is even if North Korean women had this experience, we have strength to build our new life in free country with gratitude for the freedom. That was my message. And now that you are speaking and writing about these parts of your life, does it change how you hold the memories? Like you talked about healing. How do you process or how do you heal?

How does that work? I think after writing my book, it was my first time to feel my emotions. As I mentioned before, in North Korea, I also had a different experience with my family dynamic. So sometimes, like, my grandparents are my heroes. I could say they are my role models. But suddenly just my grandma brought me to the orphanage. So I didn't have any deep trust with my family members. So how that's the way to survive there is just putting the thick wall to protect myself,

like a survival mechanism that I built. And when I came to South Korea, I was the same. People discriminate me because I'm from North Korea, but I know how to suppress my emotions. And then I know how to be logic to figure out my survival way. So I didn't feel any emotions. for 10 or 12 years. I think until I wrote my story

and now I do feel more emotions that's what I happened and a few days ago while I was eating fried eggs I thought about my grandparents they lived in North Korea for 83 years, 85 years however I think in

entire in life they just had only 30 eggs because it's not easy to offer the egg every day. But here suddenly I just made full fried eggs. Right. Because you can. Yeah, because I have money and then I can offer. But in North Korea, it's not easy to offer full eggs at once. And suddenly I just cried a lot.

And I thought about, like, what if I could make this fried eggs for my grandparents? Right. So now, like, I do think about my pastor a lot and then I do feel my emotions freely. And then it's a, I am in a healing journey, I can say. I mean, I'm not a psychologist, but it sounds healthy. Does it feel healthy to you to be able to feel these things and talk about it? I don't know whether it's healthy because I have a very survivor mechanism. like my brain, I think, works, you know, like still works in a life that line.

So when I feel that emotions, I don't think it's weakness. I cannot go further. But I'm trying to learn how to feel all my emotions freely. So I learn how to be a human. That's what I explained to my friends. For 10 years, I didn't know how to feel. emotions because I'm so good at suppressing my emotions to survive in a new country with the, with the no one.

But now, like, I could feel my emotions. I feel like I'm becoming human being. Now, what do you want to understand about your first days of freedom here in South Korea? Oh, a lot of people ask me, what was the impression of South Korea and how did you feel about the freedom at the first time? But I didn't, you know, plate to understand what the freedom means in South Korea because I came alone and I had to catch up all the advanced world and technologies. So I can say after five years, I could finally analyze what's the big difference between North Korea and South Korea.

And firstly, what I learned about the freedom is, as I mentioned before, freedom isn't free. When I was in North Korea, while I was watching South Korean drama, I imagined the world. if I go to South Korea, the money will fall down from the sky without any effort of responsibility. But when I came to South Korea to live and survive with their freedom, I had to take accountability and responsibility to leave and then to make my life better. So that's what I learned. Like freedom to have a lot of free means that you are free. You have to take your responsibility to enjoy the freedom of what you are given.

That's my message. What you say reminds me a little bit of, you know, some people from the former East Germany, which was a communist state like North Korea. And then after German unification, some of the East Germans, they missed the, it sounds strange to say, but they missed a lack of freedom because you have a structure, you know every day, this is what I must do. And the government tells you, this is where you work, you know, this is how you live, this is what you do. And in this new freedom, freedom also can mean chaos, can mean failure, can mean a lot of bad things too. Does that resonate with you? Yes, yes. And sometimes I miss North Korea,

the things that I built the connection with the people, because we don't have much distractions as like in South Korea and free country. I mean, every day you have to catch up all the information and there are a lot of like massive information you have to analyze in in a free country. It means there are a lot of noises and distractions. And that's why maybe a lot of people are mentally ill. But in North Korea, it's just simple, as you described, of East Germany, simple. You just like follow the rules and then you can live. But when I think of my life in North Korea, at least we have a community.

When you are sick, a lot of neighbors come to see a look after you, that's kind of. kind of things of what I miss. But in South, a lot, that's why I say freedom is a beautiful burden. Yeah, beautiful burden. It's a burden. It's a difficult to live in a free society, free country, but it's much, much better than to live in North Korea. As I explain it, four eggs, like people cannot offer four eggs at once in North Korea.

But here, even if there are a lot of distractions, noises, burdens, things, at least you can enjoy. you can offer that kind of things, basic needs, and then you can think of your desires. But in North Korea, there is no hope, no dreams. Now, you also spent some time in Australia, where I grew up on a working holiday. What did you learn there in Australia about work, community, and freedom?

And did anything surprise you? Oh, it's another world there, actually. I mean, coming to South Korea was shocking to me, but living there in Australia with different races and different people was another level of shocking call, you know. For example, when I walked at a cafe, in South Korea, there's no much options when you order coffee is like just they put the milk, maybe, but they're all milk, armor milk. So when I walked there, people asked me to give like, oh, do you have a brecky with the coffee with the armor milk? milk, things like I didn't have that kind of concept. Yeah.

As like explained in my book, when I came to South Korea, I worked at a paris spaggett and I never had the items in North Korea as like an egg tart, pizza bread. In North Korea, just you can count the bread, like milk bread, Uyubang, Kangnengi bread, cornbread. Three or five types of the bread exist. When I came to South Korea, like, it's like unlimited options. I never had. So I got fired after one month because I didn't.

memorize all the items. But when I came to Australia, it's a different concept of freedom. And also, the other thing is like lesbians and gays. You're a lot about minorities, sexual minorities. Yes, sexual minorities and holding hands together in the public and kissing each other, which is unusual in South Korea. And there is also someone who is from North Korea still very conservative. You know? So for me, that was like a shocking, culture shocking.

And then one guy, oh, that's the word I learned. Like one lesson I learned. Take away from Australia is, what is the word? Like, live your life with your will. In South Korea, there are a lot of, as you know, there are a lot of invisible rules. Social rules. Social rules. Family rules. They don't loudly speak about that rules, but we have to. follow invisible rules. And the standard of success maybe is going to work at a Hyundai, Samsung, big company. That's the standard of success in South Korea.

And as a North contractor, as I said, like I wasn't comfortable with my identity. And but when I went to Australia, the one event I witnessed was one guy didn't wear the shoes. And I walked the street. Bare food. They are free in front of the library, like in Melbourne. And no one saw him. They just, like, everyone lived their life. And I realized that, wow, maybe I was ashamed with the fact that I'm from North Korea.

Maybe it's not comes from outside of judgments. Maybe it comes from my internal analysis. Maybe I was ashamed of the fact that I'm from North Korea. That's why maybe people. treat me like that. So that's what I've learned. Like, share your voices and then find your authenticity and then make it as a tool to be distinguishing as from others. That's what I've learned, like from that guy just working with the barefoot in Australia. Oh, that's a great lesson. Now, on the point of authenticity, and in this next question, you don't need to name anybody, but

do you think that, you know, we live in this attention economy these days and a lot of competition for attention. And I just wonder, do you think that this competition for attention has led some North Korean refugee speakers or authors to kind of make their stories more exciting or more sad or more moving than the reality? I don't want a name, but as a North Korean defector, I could see which one is authentic or not. But I don't want a name. And also, from my experience, experience as a television, you know, what is the personality, I was on the show, the Manga, right now on my way to meet you.

Yes, now on my way to meet you. On my way to meet you. And I think for three years, I was a regular panelist. And what I learned from that TV show is, I mean, media is also business. So you have to make the content a lot of people can click, which means, you know, if North Interfectors want to make money, they have to tell their story dramatically. And then they can get attention. They can get more money because they have to survive.

So when someone tells their story, we know which one is authentic or not. But at the end of the day, I believe, like, people will figure it out, we'll figure it out which is authentic or not. Now, you're a published author. You're also a social media person. You have an active presence on Instagram. How do you check your own stories and just you kind of, you know, I have to, you know, I want to tell a good story, but I want to keep it authentic and honest. How do you sort of balance that?

My distinguishing from maybe others is I don't talk about North Korea generally. I do analyze the news or the media, the stuff related to North Korea, the, you know, macro side. But micro side, I do deliver my own experience. So I use the subject, I, not we. Right. Because everyone is from North Korea, but everyone has different stories. So your story is your story. And you're not trying to generalize and say everybody or nobody.

No, it's when I meet North Korean defectors from other provinces, from other cities, I realized that we are from same country, but our experiences are totally different. And then I'm learning North Korea from them. Right. So I try to deliver my story, the contents based on my own. own experience and I'm trying to use the subject as I, not we. Well, then here's a difficult question. How can you tell the difference between a North Korean who simply had a very different life

experience to your experience and a North Korean who is maybe not being 100% honest? People gossip about it. I mean, people can gossip, but there is like, together, can you, without that reason, you cannot create that story. It means like... So where there's smoke, there's fire. Yes, yes. So there must be something behind.

Something behind. That's why people gossip about it. And then end of the day, maybe it might be true, like 50% or things. So North Korean defectors, we have also strong North Korean community. Some people gather together. And then they do talk about data. But in the other hand, we have to also figure it out that maybe some people are just jealous of North Korean, you know, like activists who make more money.

But somehow, like, it's a truth. Some part of the truth, that's why they talk about it. I've also imagined sometimes, imagine if I was escaping from North Korea and I was, let's say I was escaping with two or three others. And somehow, through some circumstances, I'm the only one who survives and the other two or three are dead. And I might feel that, you know, somebody should tell their stories. You know, I know his life. I know his life. And maybe without thinking about it, I include some parts of their story.

my story. So it happened to somebody, but maybe it didn't happen to me. Do you think that happens, do you think that kind of story changing or story borrowing happens in the North Korean defect the community? I don't know. I don't know that part. Maybe there are some people do it, but to be honest, as a North Korean factor, I mean, there are a lot of people who claim they are experts of North Korea, and then maybe some people might do the same thing. So for me, as a North Carolina factor, as long as you survive in a free country be successful and then make an impact on this world. Because even if they borrow others or stories, some part is some part, which is true, that what that person experienced as well.

And so I know who is a liar or things, but I don't want to name on it. I just like wish them to be successful. As a North Country Factory isn't easy to survive in a free country. Sure. But it's your responsibility to figure it out, which is. true or not. But then, okay, so for a book publishing company or a TV producer, do they have a responsibility to make sure that the book that they publish or the TV show that they produce tells a true

story? I don't think a lot of people just focus on the true story. They producers or publishers will think about how to market that story. So for me, if someone who is from North Korea is lying about North Korea is also the responsibility of readers, audiences, because audiences want to click that story. So it's not only their fault. It's also the fault of audiences and readers as well.

Because a lot of majority people want to read the gigantic and dramatic stories. So in capitalism, you have to make money. That's why, like, unless you educate yourself, that kind of stories will be reproduced like every time repeatedly. Yeah. Now, if a young person listening to this podcast today, somebody, maybe not a North Korean refugee, but somebody from a difficult background, what practical steps would you suggest for building courage and dignity and creating their own identity?

I don't know. I'm the one who can give the advice or things, but from my experience, I can say, I think to have gratitude what you have right now instead of what you don't have would lead you to be a better version of yourself. I think without that gratitude, you would complain all the stuff that would happen to you instead of, like, thinking of what you have right now. So be grateful that you are given the freedom, freely. Most of people like me had to go through a very perilous journey to have this freedom. Most of people never fought to earn it.

So if you have that gratitude for the freedom, you will eventually to have the space to understand what others, you know, are going through. And then if you hear someone's a story like me, you think your life is much better than mine. Okay. So always remember there's somebody in the world who has a more difficult life than mine. Now that your book is out, The Courage to Die, what comes next for you? What's the next step in your life? If I meet you one or two years from now, what do you want to tell me you have done? I have done maybe focusing on, you know, selling my books to millions, not millions of people,

but it's very, it's my ego to sell a lot of books, because which is very important story. I don't want to compare with other de facto factors, but this one is, independently published, which means I can carry authentic stories. And I put a lot of stories of South Korea that I had been through a lot of difficulties with the freedom. So you can relate to a lot of stories with yourself. And then also with my family dynamics in North Korea. I mean, family problems is a universal. So if you, as you read my story, I mean, if someone who is struggling with the family members, they will also have the courage to live. and then what it means to live as a human being with their own dignity, not rely on others.

Okay, but looking forward, do you hope to write a second book or maybe start a company or hire some people and do something? What's the next mission for you? Next mission. I worked at an NGO for almost three years to support North Grandfactor's economy independence. Do you want to name the NGO? The Bridge International. The Bridge International. And what I learned from NGO is that without capital, you cannot do good work.

So you need to get money. Yes, NGO rely on the funding and rely on the donors, which means without that sustainable profit, you cannot do good work. So while I was working as my realization is like maybe I don't know when I can become a successful entrepreneur, but I want to build something that I can think. produce capital to help my people with my money, not rely on the funding. But now I'm figuring out I'm having the degree of Korean teaching professionally. And my vision is like maybe go to the academic schools to your Korean teacher because

I can be distinguished from other teachers because I have a Korean, like North Korean language and South Korean language. So it is a very unique to audiences. is. If I learn all the process of business stuff, and I can build my own and then I can produce the capital, that's my vision now. But at the same time, I have to sell books to reach out white audiences to tell what life looks like in North Korea and also what the freedom means to people who just live in a free society.

That's a great answer. Thank you very much, Uni, for joining me today on the podcast. And just to remind our listeners, check out her book, The Courage to Die. And you can find her on Instagram at North Korea-D-H-E-N-H-E-E. Thanks again, Uni. Thank you. You have a wonderful question. Thank you.

Ladies and gentlemen, that brings us to the end of our podcast episode for today. Our thanks go to Brian Betts and David Choi for facilitating this episode and to our post-recording producer Alana Hill, who cuts out all the extraneous noises, awkward silences, bodily functions and fixes the audio levels. Thank you for listening and listen again next time.