North Korea News Podcast by NK News - Georgy Toloraya: Why the North Korea-Russia relationship is built to last

Episode Date: March 6, 2025

In this episode, Russian scholar and former diplomat Georgy Toloraya offers his view on the evolving dynamic between Moscow and Pyongyang, exploring how economic cooperation, military ties and geopolitical circumstances are bringing the two closer together. He talks about why this relationship is not just a marriage of convenience but rather a convergence of values, […]

You're listening to an exclusive episode of the NK News podcast available only to subscribers. You can listen to this and other episodes from your preferred podcast player by accessing the Private Podcast feed. For more detailed instructions, please see the step-by-step guide on the NK News podcast. I am your host, Jaco Zwetsloot and this episode was recorded in the NK News studio on Saturday, the 8th of February. And today we welcome back a special guest for the first time in almost seven years. It's Giorgi Toleraya, who is a seasoned Russian diplomat

and scholar with extensive experience in Korean affairs, having served in both North and South Korea, including roles as Deputy Chief of Mission at the Russian Embassy in Seoul and postings in Pyongyang. He was a Russian member on the UN's panel of experts before it was dissolved in 2024. He currently directs Korean programs at the Institute. No, I don't. I'm now the director of the Russian Strategy in Asia Center at the Institute of Economy of Russian Academy of Science. There you go. Thank you for that correction and welcome back on the show. You are on episode number two in February 2018. And so here we are seven years later, February 2025. Welcome back.

Hello, hello Jakub. Nice to be here again. Okay, so the world is watching the evolving relationship between Russia and North Korea with interest. From your perspective, what do you think most analysts or observers are getting wrong about the Russia DPRK dynamic today? Well, I think that most experts, especially in the West, see that as a sort of a marriage of convenience, that Russia needs arms and some assistance, while North Korea wants to get out of isolation, and this is why they've got so close. I think it's just only the part of the story. The rest of the story is the more of a, I hate the word, but it describes the ideological nature, the convergence of values of the leadership of the two countries. Both see the world as dominated unjustly by the West, and both want to change the world order, and

they're strongly anti-Western. So this is the basic convergence of values that brought the leadership of the two countries together. And it will certainly stay even after the current need of the countries in each other's systems would diminish. I understand the convergence of values that you speak, which is kind of a convergence of things that both countries do not like. But I wonder, is there also a positive ideological thing that they both have in common, i.e. things that both countries like or strive for?

both have in common, i.e. things that both countries like or strive for? Well, they both vote in the same manner on most issues concerning the international matters, practically all international matters in the UN and other. That seems that they see the world in a very similar way. So it brings, of course, the positive agenda for development and for breaking of isolation and for the future world order which would be more convenient, more useful for both countries. So this is sort of a positive agenda. Now over your career you've obviously seen the relationship between North Korea and Russia evolve. Talk a little bit about that, that evolution that you've seen.

Well, I've seen several waves of relations up and down. In fact, it started well before the breakup of Soviet Union because even in the Soviet time, I witnessed, I personally witnessed how relations went from a lot of cool one in the end of 70s and beginning of 1980s to renaissance in 1984 when Kim Il-sung visited Russia and Soviet Union and have reached some agreements so there was a surge on delegations and exchanges and surge in trade as well as armament supply from Russia.

Then it all went down under Gorbachev and it went to Nadir under Yeltsin when the relations were almost nonexistent. There was no treaty. It was formally there, but there was no obligations in either part. There were almost no exchanges. The trade came to very low figures. So that was the period of very cool. But at the same time, I would say, well, a very cautious relationship. Neither countries tried to challenge each other or to make some hostile moves, although

Russia, of course, criticized North Korea because of its nuclear program, but otherwise it tried to keep the good neighborhood. And it resulted in the iteration of relations into a thousand when the new treaty was signed and when Putin and Kim Jong-il exchanged visits. So that was a new phase of relations, pragmatic ones. At that time, we tried some economic cooperations, but the debt problem and the poor state of economy in Russia both prevented it. So the relations went down again with the nuclear test,

and Russia joining the Western sanctions, the UN sanctions, but that was US-led sanctions, in 2006 and on. They were rather cool during the period of late Kim Jong-il, the attempt of Kim Jong-il to restore them by his meeting with Medvedev in 2011, it was a successful one. We restored some of the discussions on economic cooperation, but then Kim Jong-il died, and

there was a sort of a pause because there was a power transit in North Korea. But the new rapprochement started in 2014 on the Kim Jong-un. And as I've mentioned earlier, that was mostly ideology driven. Kim Jong-un, after initial play with reform and his to get closer to the West, he was disappointed that there was not enough reaction, that the pressure and attempts to undermine his regime both by the West and by South Korea, the conservative administration was still there. So when Russia took over Crimea, he saw it as a rightful act, and he decided to get closer to Putin. At the time, as you remember, he sent the delegation headed by

the head of state Kim Jong-un to the Olympics in Sochi. And 2014, so, and 2015 especially, saw a great upsurge in relations. There were many economic projects discussed. There was the great increase in the number of delegations, not as big as now, but a considerable one. But then again, Russia chose pro-Western position in connection with the Kim Jong-un's nuclear and missile tests in 2016, 2017, effectively supported Trump's fine theory and the maximum pressure approach, and that disappointed Kim Jong-un.

And then Kim Jong-un was distracted by his dealings with Trump and Moon Jae-in. Russia was simply not very much relevant, although the relations continued, but they were not of that much important to North Korea. And the real change came in 2022, although North Korea was still under quarantine and there were no exchanges,

but that didn't mean that the relations had in fact changed. And the world saw it in 2023, when Shoigu went to Pyongyang, and when the delivery of arms started. So this is the start of a new, I would even say a new era in relationship. It's not just a temporary wake like the others but a long-term tendency. This change that you say took place, the new era beginning in 2022, was that something that was

sparked because of the war between Russia and Ukraine? Exactly. Okay, which we'll talk a little bit more about later on. But first of all, you've been following North Korea for decades. People have just heard a compressed history of your observation. What have been some of the most surprising or revealing moments to you in studying North Korea? Curious to hear the rest? Become an NK News subscriber today for access to the full episode.

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