North Korea News Podcast by NK News - John Linton: Why Korean reunification could happen tomorrow

Episode Date: July 4, 2024

John Linton, also known by his Korean name Ihn Yo-han, first visited North Korea with his mother as part of efforts to eradicate tuberculosis in the country. He has since visited the DPRK almost 30 times for various humanitarian aid projects, and hopes to again step foot in the country in his new role as […]

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My name is Jaco Zwetsit. I'm your host and this interview was recorded on Friday, the 14th of June, 2024. And joining me here in the studio is doctor and now National Assembly member John Linton, who was born an American citizen in Suncheon, South Cheolla Province and is now a naturalized Korean citizen. He's a medical doctor and until recently was director of the International Health Care Center at Severance Hospital, part of Yonsei University Medical School. Now he's a member of the National Assembly elected as a proportional candidate for the People Future Party which has since been dissolved into the People Power

Party. Welcome on the show, Dr. Linton. Thank you for inviting me. It's great to have you here. This podcast, as you may know, we focus on North Korea. We talk all about North Korea in every possible aspect. And now you're a member of the National Assembly. There is a standard committee, the Foreign Affairs and Unification Committee, which deals with North Korean affairs. Are you on it?

And if not, do you hope to be? Well, we're still in sort of a stalemate with the opposition about finalizing the subcommittees. But I have asked our party leader to allow me to take part. I'm a doctor, so one would think that I would go under the Ministry of Health and Welfare. But I've asked him to put me on the Foreign Affairs and Reunification Committee. And barring any unforeseeable circumstance, that should happen as soon as a conflict between the stalemate between the ruling party and the opposition party is resolved. And what do you hope to do on that committee? Well, there's two things that I think that I can contribute for Korea's future.

I love Korea dearly. It's my home. Our family's been here four generations. So however the US elections go, the relationship with the United States is very important. I hope to give some input there. But because of my many, many trips to North Korea in giving humanitarian aid or helping with tuberculosis eradication and other projects. I hope that it's an opportunity to help the relationship between North and South which right now is very low.

As you said you've been to North Korea a number of times I think it's it's in the dozens have you lost count? 29 times is the last time I counted. Okay, and tell us a little bit about the humanitarian work that you've done there. Well, the first trip was with my mother, with the invitation from the Eugene Bell Foundation, which is my great-grandfather's name, a foundation that was set up about 20, almost 30 years ago. And it originally started with humanitarian aid

because North Korea in the 90s was suffering very badly. It was established in 1995. But as my mother arrived and she has spent her lifetime in tuberculosis eradication in South Korea, we had the opportunity to expand into North Korea and she is a widow. My father was killed in an automobile accident. So she took an ambulance to North Korea with the money that she received from the HWAM

award from Samsung corporation back in 96, in 97 January, we delivered the ambulance and then overland. Well, we took it as far as Tandong and then across from China. Then after that, the opportunity to help visit North Korea's tuberculosis hospitals, 13 of them, we visited 12 out of 13 and roughly half out of the 60 rest homes for tuberculosis that exist in the country and we had a very active program going almost 10 years and it was very meaningful, very good work. We treated over 350,000 patients for six months period of medication and we took oh goodness millions of x-rays with mobile x-ray, 18 mobile x-ray units. So it was a very good

project and after the Korean War, tuberculosis is a disease of overcrowding and malnutrition. So it is a formidable problem for North Korea, probably the number one health care problem. And also I want to add in the future that when North and South eventually reunify it'll be the biggest challenge for South Korea during the unification possibility. At some point I believe the two Koreas will be together. I want to come back to that point a little bit later on. So as I mentioned before you were born in Korea, you speak native level Korean, you're now a South Korean citizen. How do you believe in those visits that you made, the 29 plus visits to North Korea, how

do you believe the North Korean government views you as a man born a white American, now a citizen of the Republic of Korea, but not part of the Minjok, now voted into the National Assembly? How do you think North Koreans look at you? Well, they have a lot of suspicion toward, I'll be quite politically incorrect, toward white faces. And they have a strong belief that the United States runs all of South Korean policy, that we're still, shall we say, a colonialistic power, much like China was above the Koreas more than 150 years ago. So they're very very suspicious of us and

good spy, bad spy, big spy, little spy. It's really hard to, in doing NGO work, they also, none of their NGOs are independent of their government. So they view you as an arm of the American government and the colonial government. I'm not saying this as a true fact, the way they view it as a colonial government. Will they express this to you directly? Well, it's very obvious because you sit down in morning meetings and they talk about that because of the imperialistic embargo of their country that they're suffering. So everything that goes wrong is a lot of the fault is attributed to the United States and the sanctions and the embargo and

that is their stance. So they may not directly say that they hate America or they hate you, but it's very, very clear that you're an obstacle. And it's real hard for them also to receive aid from somebody that they consider, let's just be very clear, the enemy. But doctors get beyond that. I'm not a politician until recently. I'm not a member of any government until recently. So they were able to get beyond that. We had very, very good relationship building because doctors are very much focused on patients and doctors

North Korean doctors and myself had hundreds of conversations about how we can do a better job in helping the patients. Yeah. And this was I think was very meaningful and I frankly didn't see that many patients personally it was helping North Korean doctors to do be more efficient and putting the machinery in their hands. Yeah. So they can do it. Incidentally, they have some excellent doctors in North Korea. Having spent almost your whole life in Korea and you've, you know, over many decades, you've seen ups and downs, ebbs and flows between the two Koreas in terms of inter-Korean relations.

How do you feel about where inter-Korean relations are now? Well, they're very, very bad. I mean, it's gone south. The nuclear and missile saber-rattling obviously has a very chilling effect. But I want to point out that this happened, started happening way before this government took control. The Moon government went to Paektusan and was very romantic. Everybody thought unification was around the corner. But in July… Did you? No, no, never. I was wondering when the honeymoon would end and in June 16, 2000, you had the huge, shall we say the explosion where the North-South building was blown up by the North Koreans. 2020, I think.

2020, June 16th, exactly. And on that day, they blew up the building that symbolized the relationship between North and South Korea. So, a lot of people are blaming or would like to fault our government now But this was has been in the making, you know that 2020 was way before the term of President Yun and I think things have just continually gotten worse and I I can't explain there's a dozen different reasons why I can't explain right now everything, but we're at the lowest ebb, so we have nothing but a chance for it to get better. My interest is not necessarily, although I've become a politician, is not in politics as much as

I am a strong believer in the division of humanitarian aid from politics. That is in the UN mandate, by the way. So we should be interested in helping the North Korean people with their suffering. And those that do not like the North Korean government, that's fine and have complaints about that. But we should divide government and people. We should think of the North Korean people and all the difficulties they're going through. Let's talk about that a little bit. So the current government under President Yun has quite a strong policy towards North Korea putting security first and foremost. And as you've said, you've done a lot of humanitarian work and humanitarianism is it should be something that can be separated from governments. how to balance the two how do you

Maintain security on the one hand while also helping the people of North Korea at the same time well with all the you know different missile blasts and the testing of nuclear weapons it's very clear that North Koreans are not an easy neighbor to deal with So you know the strong defense posture that South Korea is taking is very understandable. The average South Korean, more than 70% of South Koreans, this is in a poll by the way, this is not my opinion, feel that South Korea should have a nuclear weapon independent of the United States. Those are the pure facts because of all the saber rattling.

At the same time, you have a humanitarian disaster going on. And our president is very much interested in helping provide, you know, three things are outside the sanctions. Pharmaceuticals, which is medicine, food and farming. those three are in the, you can help North Korea in those three categories without being a violation of the sanctions. So that has been offered. I want to really strongly say this today, that has been offered to North Korea. They're not interested in this. Their government to North Korea. They're not interested in this. Their government is rejecting that. They're not interested in foreign aid at this juncture. They're interested in development in like building of factories and things like this.

But there's been a fundamental over the last five or six years, a recalibration, a resetting of what North Korea will receive and what it will not receive. So it's not from our side that we're withholding. I don't want anybody listening to this program to think that South Korea is withholding aid. That is just simply not true. I seem to remember in the last two decades that North Korea is generally un... it's reluctant to receive aid directly from South Korea but it's okay to receive aid from third parties and I wonder if the South Korean government were to send aid through say China for example whether that would be a way that North Korea would find acceptable. Well most of, I would say 95% of the South Korean NGOs have been shut down.

And more than 90% of US NGOs have been, close to 100%, have been shut down. Now, it is my understanding that there are a few NGOs out of Europe, Germany, that are still doing, for Germany's one Germany, that are still doing, Germany is one example, that are still doing some projects in North Korea. But it's, again, there's been a fundamental paradigm shift in that we're not interested in just aid for itself, itself, but we, you know, if it comes in technical logical or helping us build something meaningful from their point of view, then we will cooperate. But the options are quite limited. My family has three different

organizations, Wellspring, a well-drilling organization, Christian Friends of Korea that does medical work work and then Eugene Bell Which does multi-drug resistant tuberculosis and for the 40 last four years plus? Nobody has been able to allow to travel to North Korea to give you an example of just in my immediate family There are three organizations and they've all been shut down or been put on hold I guess that's a better word you You mean from the North Korean side? From the North Korean side. But it's also difficult, as you know, for American citizens

to travel to the United States, too, after the Otto Warmbier incident. Oh, after Otto Warmbier. And it wasn't, again, that wasn't just in the Biden, but in the former Trump administration, they require a special passport, which is almost impossible to get for the common person. It is very restrictive. Did you ever get one? No, no. Recently I haven't been or tried to

go to North Korea but I have talked with the US Embassy about possibilities of this being relaxed because once again humanitarian aid and politics should not be confused. Have you had a chance yet to talk to either President Yun or to the Minister of Unification about your experiences in North Korea? Oh we've had, I don't want to go into too much detail, but in we've had a long talk since last year, last spring in person. I've had some discussions with president about North Korea and he's very inquisitive because I think he's very curious because we spent more time in the countryside than in Pyongyang. Right.

A lot of people go to Pyongyang, but is that really North Korea? It's very showcase. So our experience in the countryside and visiting a lot of rural hospitals and rest homes, what we, the knowledge we gained, I think is of some use and insight. And again, we're not using this knowledge against North Korea, it's just to point out the, you know, I believe in human rights. I think human rights is very important, but not getting tuberculosis medicine

when you have tuberculosis, not getting enough food to eat when you're hungry. I think that is also a violation of human rights. Certainly, those are human rights too. What do you think is the most important thing that you observed or learned firsthand through your travel to North Korea on these humanitarian missions? You know, philosophically, I'm a huge supporter of Kim Dae-jung's sunshine policy. I'm sorry, not sunshine. Sunshine policy. I think that North Korea is changing. Perhaps by our standards, it's a bit slow, but their standards, it is a lot of change. And I think the sunshine policy is the only policy that makes sense how it was done. I mean, there was lots of money transfers that were unfortunate. I don't think, agree with that. But, you know, for example, helping North Korea with this infrastructure, I think would be

a very, very, very, very, very good project. So things like electricity, supply, water. Roads, I think. Roads, okay. Paving of local roads in the countryside. The road systems are mostly unpaved, if they are paved, in very deteriorating conditions. But I think it's very different from East and West Germany, but West Germany was building roads for East Germany from 50 years ago. I mean, that was ongoing. And the beauty of West Germany was the opposition

and the ruling party, or even when they switched hands, they kept the same policy. And this is the key. At some point in South Korea, we should have the ruling and opposition, whoever they may be, sit down and have an extended, non-changing policy towards North Korea. Is that something that you'd be interested to be involved in?

Very much be happy to be the mediator. You know, I'm a big, again, I'm a big fan of Kim Dae-jung and his visit to North Korea and Sunshine Policy, and I'd be happy to, there are some rightist people that are very concerned that it might be a detriment to our defense posture. But I really think that something can be worked out, a policy that so it doesn't with each change of, you know, when you have a different president from a different party, you're saying something different. I don't think that is helpful long term. Do you know any politicians or political thinkers on the opposition who you think you could

talk to? Oh, the opposition, I think, are very much, in this case, would be very happy to go along with what I'm saying. And within my own party, the People's Power Party, we need to have some really in-depth, some really long conversations about this. So I think we can reach an agreement on things that are, as far as support for North Korea, that can still be agreeable

to somebody of a conservative thinking. Now, I know you've expressed a hope and a belief that the two Koreas will unite in the future. But at the same time, 70% of South Koreans now believe that South Korea should have its own nuclear weapon and North Korea seems to have given up on the dream of peaceful unification. Do you see, is there a generational shift coming along where young Korean people think, well, we're not that interested in North Korea or in unification? Do you see is there a generational shift coming along where young Korean people think well We're not that interested in North Korea or in unification. Do you see that happening? The younger generation I guess are a lot of times annoyed by North Korea. Mm-hmm

And feel also a distance. I don't know any they'll have any relatives there. They don't know anyone there that is the sad thing because the 6 million separated families are now the relatives are all dying off of old age. So in Confucian society, the family connection is so important. That is true, but I don't believe in the embracement as much as engagement. I think that North Korea is, I'll be careful what I say here, but North Korea is now as a nuclear bomb. Several, I think.

Probably. So, I mean, what choice is there and why, I understand very, very open-mindedly that South Koreans think we should also have a deterrent bomb. And after that, then you can think of lots of things. Then you could say, well, if they equal deterrence, like Russia and the United States for so many years, then other things can be relaxed and we can engage. I don't think governments necessarily give the answers. Ultimately, governments have to sign treaties and contracts and agreements. But South Korea is a pluralistic, powerful country. And I think South Korean, especially businessmen, should be allowed to go to North Korea, our pluripotential population should engage North Korea. I think that's what I saw. The most remarkable thing I saw was when Kim Dae-jung and Kim Jong-il's pictures were all

over North Korea, the whole security apparatus, in other words, all the checkpoints became much more relaxed. So there was a big change because the enemy, very close, South Korea was no longer an enemy. And an ironic upside down logic that presented a huge problem for North Korea. The fact that they didn't have an enemy right close by. What makes people-to-people engagement so difficult on either side of the demilitarized zone is the fact that both governments of North and South Korea seem to agree on one thing and that is that people shouldn't be allowed to freely communicate. Here in South Korea you're not allowed to send a letter or make a phone call, you write an email to anyone in North Korea.

Right, that's very true, but do they really, North Koreans really, do they really not know about South Korea? That's not true. They see enormous amount of movies and soap operas and South Korean television is very popular in North Korea. And so the thawing has already,

shall we say, since 20 some odd years ago has begun. And they're exposed to all of this. I heard today that one of the most popular, my hometown 6 o'clock, Oyang, Yasashii, is really, really popular in North Korea, and that's showing the South Korean countryside. North Koreans are absolutely floored by how the affluence of even the South Korean countryside. Yeah. I mean, it's one thing for the city to be rich, but the countryside is also very affluent in Korea, and part of the dream of the Han Ganggang or the miracle of the Han-gang. So that in itself, that kind of a thing and also through watching these programs,

they're learning that there's a different world out there. And I think in the long run, that's very valuable. And it's very understandable that North Korea wants to hide or wants to control the input from South Korean media. Yeah. And that's why they get so upset over all these balloons going North and the broadcasting going North and all this stuff. But in the long run, I believe that engagement, open policy, the North should be able to look at us and we should be able to meet with them and talk with them. I think in the long term, that is the only solution to nuclear armament and missiles and all this threat of war. What can South Korea do from its side to encourage North Korea to participate in that engagement?

Because right now North Korea is very clear it doesn't want to talk to President Moon. It doesn't want to talk to South Korea in any way, shape or form. How can we get North Korea to change its mind? I think some, what's the word, some confidence building, very small project through the originally the relationship, the Yugi-Dol, the 615. All right, the June 15th joint declaration of signed by Kim Dae-Joon and Kim Jong-Il in 2000 after this or during their summit.

That summit was a product of a lot of work behind the scenes between the Japanese Chosun Sorin. Right, okay. And so third parties like the Chosun Sorin, although they're communist. Well, many of them are pro-North Korean. Pro-North Korean and they're communist or socialistic base. But I think finding people that North Korea trusts,

it's not easy, very challenging, but finding people that North Korea trusts and then doing some very small things that don't hurt anybody in North or South. Like giving tuberculosis medicine, for example. Exactly. Food aid. and restarting the mutual trust in very small increments is the right way to go. And you know, I even think I'll even, let me make an argument like this. Kissinger was a member of the Republican Party, very, very, very Republican administration, very, very conservative, that opened the relations with China. I think that may be true for North and South, that a conservative government in South Korea may

even have more trust than from South Korea, obviously, yes, because they're conservatives, and the people are not worried that they're going too far. But also, I think North Koreans realize that conservative branch of South Korean politics may be more forthcoming in the long run. I mean, in the short run, there's all this military buildup and all this stuff going on. But if you look at it really from a cool point of view, I think even the North Korean cadre or the party officials realize that if they can make a deal with the South Korean, shall we say, the representative of the right,

that things will be more enduring, will last a longer time, and that there's more, they're paying even more trust, believe it or not. You just mentioned earlier the June 15th Joint Declaration of 2000. Tomorrow is the 24th anniversary of that declaration. You also brought in the Chosun Soran, who did a lot of the Zainichi Koreans in Japan,

who did a lot of the behind the scenes work there Japan who did a lot of the behind-the-scenes work there. I understand that they're now also being encouraged to stop talking about unification. Does it feel to you like we might have gone back to a period before 2000 that we might be sort of starting from square one again? Well, Kim Il-sung from a North Korean perspective is considered the savior of North Korea. And for Kim Il-sung, was first made the overtures to South Korea in wanting to meet with Kim Yong-sam. And then his son Kim Jong-il met with South Korea. I see all of this going on, the breaking up of the railroad ties that connect the country and everything going in reverse.

But that's really hard even from a North Korean perspective for grandson to do because father and son by grandson is very very much taboo in in in in Confucianism first of all and in North Korean in the Kim family shall we say succession mm-hmm he seems to be doing it though at least in words yes Yes, but they're unhappy. And I think it's a lot of showing of unhappiness. And I hope that at some point they stop doing it and that they come to the table.

But let's talk about the Biden administration and Obama. There's been a total malignant neglect of North Korea. There's been a total malignant neglect of North Korea. The Trump, you know, Trump takes a lot of beating for the failed Hanoi summit, but at least Trump met with their leadership three times, and at least Trump was trying to figure out a, make an agreement, or as he says, I guess, make a deal with them

Mm-hmm, so I think the Biden administration has signaled several times. They're willing to meet without preconditions Well, the way they've handled it. I think it's been a mess frankly, and I that's I'm a doctor and we use the word benign neglect when there's a disease a patient has it's not very Threatening we don't do anything. I think North Korea and America policy under Obama and Biden has been malignant neglect. I think that a lot more could have been done. It's very unfortunate. But be that as it may, we need to look to the future. Things are bad right now. They probably couldn't get any worse as far as relationship building, but you can start at the bottom. And I still think that Koreans in general are that there are possibilities, but it's got to start with

very small things, building of trust in small increments. It's not going to happen all at once. Do you feel things are actually dangerous now or do you feel that it's been more dangerous in the past? Oh, I think it's been more dangerous in the past. I think that the North Korean regime realizes that another Cheonanam submarine sinking or another Yeomom Pyeong-do bombing, would not be tolerated by the South Korean public. Not just what party you're a member of, but I think the South Koreans would be irate if there was another bombing of an island, or shelling of an island,

or there was another sinking of a ship, of a military vessel. I think the South Korean public would demand revenge immediately. Which they didn't do so much in 2010, as I recall. It was pretty quiet back then. You're absolutely. The public mood has changed a bit in the last 14 years.

I think, I hope that the North Koreans realize that any strange behavior would be met with very strong resolve. I hope they know that. I think they do. I think balloons are a way of showing disgust toward balloons going north, and it's sort of tit for tat. Balloons coming south, yeah.

And this kind of thing going on with the speakers on the border also is a similar kind of thing going on with the with the speakers on the border also is a similar kind of thing but I it would Who knows I may be wrong, but hopefully this will not escalate returning from over to unification for decades both careers have talked about the importance of an ethnic unification and Uri Minjok Unification of the Han Minjok now, although you're culturally and legally Korean You're not part of that bloodline descended from the mythical progenitor Tangun So do you think that a new vision for what?

Unification would look like is necessary not so much based on an ethnic principle But on something else the real reality in South Korea is in the construction and in farming Cannot be maintained without foreign workers, migrant workers. So you've got 5% over 250,000, I'm sorry, 2.5 million foreigners who are living in South Korea, so maybe close to 3 million. So 5% of the population in South Korea is now foreign. So Korea's immigration and its policy toward foreigners is very different. 30% of wives in the countryside are foreign. So you've had a shift, a huge shift. Now at this juncture for North Korea to insist on bloodline unification and only ethnic Koreans or real Koreans is unfortunately very outdated. If they do indeed unify, they're gonna also have to deal with people

that are married to foreign wives. And it's very timely also for me entering politics as a, you know, originally non-ethnic Korean. And I have seen zero discrimination in the National Assembly from either party. Koreans are very open-minded. I think majority of Koreans have opened up to the fact that this is the way the future is going to be. And Korea has a horrible birth rate problem, which is so low. Yeah, it's below 0.7 now. It's below 0.7. And so, there's got to be some, everything's got to be rethought as far as

the demographics of South Korea. North Korea doesn't have that high demographics either, for that matter. Right. It's still below replacement rate, but it's above one. Right. Right. Well, a lot of statistics on North Korea are given, but the fact of the matter is you wonder with what ability they put those statistics together. You know, I have a lot of UN people that quote North Korean statistics and there's a lot of very talented and smart people in the UN, but if you're dealing with a fundamental ruler that's not the right size, how can you measure something? It's difficult. So I don't at all want to be negative on this program. I think we've got the

future. I think North and South Korea, it is the advantage of both countries. Of course, there's going to be big headaches and big challenges, but for the countries to get together and unify, South Korea is an island basically, but once unification occurs, it's a peninsula. It's connected with China, it's connected with Russia, there are railroad ties all the way to Europe. I mean, we're looking at a completely different world after unification. So it is there. One statistic I saw was 26 times the national, the natural resources in North Korea than in South Korea. I went by Tanchun on the East Coast and they are the best manganese in the whole world. They have mines there. So there's a lot underground that's developed, that'll be able to develop. There's lots of things that South Korean young people will be able to be employed.

If you were bordering with China and Russia, there's all kinds of future business opportunities. I think there are a lot of challenges, but there's also a huge amount of opportunities for the young people of South Korea. And it's unfortunate that the young people of South Korea don't see this. The question I ask is the upside down question of is unification a choice? The night before East Germany and Western Germany unified, there was a big meeting of college professors and they said, unification looks like it's going to be 20 years off. They signed to communicate. Do you realize this? The night before that unification looks

dismal for another 20 years, in the next day it happened. So I don't think in the history of mankind there's been a controlled unification. I think at some point we're going to wake up in the morning and the barriers are going to be gone and we we're gonna have to deal with it. And my plea to the National Assembly, whether it be our party or the opposition, we need to prepare for this. We need to sit down and do some really soul searching and also create laws in preparation for unification. My frank hope is a lot of the infrastructure

in North Korea we could start working on and at some point we're gonna have to pay for it anyway. And also food, we should figure out a way to get them. We have, it cost us a half a billion dollars in storage to keep rice in storage in South Korea. That is so bad when you think that people in North Korea are suffering from malnutrition and, you know, poor calorie intake. We've got all this excess rice that is costing us a lot of money to keep in storage. We ought to let some of that go north. Well, Dr. Linton, now that you are a National Assemblyman, and given your background and your experience, your trips to North Korea, and your heart for unification, would you be open to a visit to North Korea

as part of a National Assembly delegation? Oh, I'd be very happy to go. At the drop of a hat, I would be ready to go anytime. But I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. I think that we need to talk through third parties that are trusted by North Korea. We should talk to North Koreans and then perhaps meet them in third country venues, China or maybe Southeast Asian countries. Mongolia is a good one. Mongolia is a good one. The Mongols are very cooperative too.

And they have good relations with both Koreas. That's right. I think that's all open possibilities for the future. At some point, you've got to talk to people. Again, embracement people have problems with, but I am a strong proponent of engagement. Whether you like somebody, agree with them or not, you need to keep engaging.

And after engaging again and again and again, you begin to understand the counterpart and things do, if there's better understanding, then you can work together and hopefully live together in the future. Well, let's see if you can start by engaging with your opponents in the National Assembly Well, let's see if you can start by engaging with your opponents in the National Assembly and reaching some

agreement there and then talk about engaging with the North Korea. You've struck a very sensitive point, very well said. I wish you all the best. Thank you very much for coming on the show today, Dr. Linton.

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