North Korea News Podcast by NK News - Kenneth Bae on surviving North Korean detention: North Korea Unpacked

Episode Date: September 24, 2026

This month, Kenneth Bae joins North Korea Unpacked with Jacco Zwetsloot to discuss the 735 days he spent detained in North Korea, how repeated visits to the country shaped his understanding of ordinary North Koreans and what his imprisonment revealed about the state’s security system. He recounts how he traveled to North Korea 17 times […]

Hello listeners. Welcome to this month's edition of North Korea Unpacked with Jack O'Swetsuit. I'm your host, Jack O'Swetsuit. And today we've got a very special guest. We have Kenneth Bay. This is a gentleman I wanted to interview for a number of years. It hasn't worked out. But finally today, we've got him here in the studio. Kenneth is, of course, a Korean-American missionary and businessman who spent two years imprisoned in North Korea. He authored the book, Not Forgotten, The True Story of My Imprisonment in North Korea. In March this year, Kenneth launched a radio channel, New Korea. Hope Broadcasting, which broadcasts directly into North Korea to provide in citizens with news, information and a connection to the outside world. You can find out more at nkhb.org. Kenneth, thank you so much for your time and for coming in today. Well, thank you for having me. I got so much that I want to ask you. So let's see how fast we can get through this.

Your father, I understand, came from what is now North Korea, so before the separation. Before you ever went there yourself to North Korea, what did the concept of North Korea, What did the concept of North Korea mean to you personally? Well, North Korea was always in my mind, but I never thought that I would be visiting North Korea anytime soon at the time. But because my dad was born inside of North Korea, and then, but he was able to escape North Korea when he was six years old during the Korean War. So for him, just his homeland that he never was able to visit.

And then he passed away last year without ever, you know, without ever been ever to go back to North Korea. So for me, back in those days when I was in and out, North Korea, I really, I thought that I was going in and out in behalf of my family. I'm the only one has access to going in. So for me, it was like even though I wasn't born there, I felt like I was in and out as someone that is from North Korea, no way. And was your original motivation, you know, that family connection

or humanitarian or religious or national, nationalistic or some combination? It is combination. First, it was a family related and of a purpose. But most likely I want it to go into North Korea now only by myself. I want to bring others who has a heart for North Korean people to be able to go in for the explore the nature, the culture, and to be able to meet with the people in person so that they will have wider understanding, deeper understanding of what is really going on inside North Korea.

So I started a tour company in specializing in North Korea so that we'll be able to go in and out of North Korea. But the most of people I brought in, they were Christians. So we had Christians groups that are going in and out, and then we definitely did that with just purpose for prayer, and then we wanted to go and bless people,

you know, with just being Christian there. We are not able to share any Christian messages to them, but at the same time that they wanted to go and really see the land for themselves and pray for them. So if I understand correctly, there was no sort of public prayer in front of your North Korean guides, no sharing of tracts or religious literature. Nothing like that.

Nothing like that. But because they knew that we are a Christian group, they allowed us to pray our own or worship in our own. So while we are moving in the buses, we are able to just sing songs and some Christian songs and Kim songs and we're able to do that. but not in the, you know, in a public or marketplaces, things, place like that. You know, we didn't do it, you know, to display our faith to the people in North Korea.

In what year was your first visit to North Korea? My first visit was 2010. It was also coincidentally my first visit to North Korea. Did you feel on that first visit that these were my people? Of course, yeah. Even though I wasn't born there, I felt like, you know, because of my dad's heritage there, you know. So we are one country and one time. Therefore, that I just had an instant connection when I visited there.

I felt like that I kind of belonged there in a way. And do you think that that emotional connection might have made you less cautious about the personal risks? Not maybe because I was in and out. First few visits, I was very cautious, definitely. But after in and out for 17 times, and now only I was able to go to Rassan area, but I was able to visit different places, including Pyongyang, in Kaysong, and Wansan, and different cities. I didn't have any issues, I didn't have problems, and so I felt like that at the last trip that I had a problem with, I was a little careless because I just put my guard down, even though I'm not supposed to do that.

But that's kind of led into my arrest. Looking back now, do you think that you understood North Korea as well as you thought you did? Of course. So before, I thought that I knew North Korea inside and out quite a bit. But after I was arrested, I definitely, I realized that, wow, North Korea that I knew was just a surface level. Maybe what I heard from the press or other media, but the North Korea that I experienced after my detaining North Korea was quite a bit of, you know, just a lot of revealing factors that I didn't expect to know before. So you entered 17 times successfully before your detention on the 18th trip. How were you able to operate for that long without being stopped? You said they knew you were Christians.

So they allowed Christians going in because in the Rassan to specialize in economic zone there. The most people, especially if you're a westerner, you know, most likely 99% of people will be Christians. They were Christians. They're working in North Korea. So the North Korean... Did you know a lot of them? Yeah. I knew not a lot of them, but I knew a few of them.

This is one of the reasons why I was able to go into North Korea first time by through the invitation of the one of the people that I knew. But so North Korean governments have a pretty good idea that the people are coming into North Korea, if they're Western, most likely they're Christians. But in terms of being, you know, in terms of Christian, they're cautious, but they allow a certain degree because they're the one bringing in resources,

humanitarian aid, and all kinds of connections. And for me, my connection was I was able to bring in Western tourists into countries. I was able to bring about 300 Western tourists from 17 different nations. So constantly, almost like every other week, I was able to bring in group. We spend at least four days to about 10 days in North Korea,

every time. So I was in and out of North Korea all the time. time. So they allowed us to function as a Christian group as long as we don't make any trouble. And as long as we don't leave tracks or Bible, you know, places like around or purposely or things like that. So I was the one giving orientation to every group to make sure we don't do anything like that. Right. Except that I didn't realize that I'm the one that we're making the same, the mistake that I was telling others not to make a mistake with. Within those constraints of not leaving any tracks, not talking openly about your faith,

did you feel that you had some degree of freedom during your trips? There's a certain degree of freedom, depending on what group I'm taking into. If I was bringing some Korean-speaking group, if they're from, they may be Korean, but they're from U.S. or Canada, Australia, and if they're able to speak Korean, able to understand Korean, they're more cautious. They will have another security personnel or follow us. around to make sure they wouldn't do anything illegally supposedly and we don't directly contact with the local people but the time that I only bring in the western tourists who are not maybe

who are not a Korean base then they're a little more relaxed because they realize what can they do anyway in terms of that are able to understand the language not able to speak the language so when I went into Pyongyang because I was I was bringing some South African Africans or some people from European countries, and we had a lot more freedom. One near maybe two tour guide with us, and then we're able to spend, or to go pretty much places that we wanted to go and see without much restrictions. But still accompanied by one or two to.

Yeah, of course. We weren't able to walk around by ourselves. Right. You said that most of the visitors on your trips were Christian and had a Christian heart for North Korea. How explicitly religious was the purpose of these trips? The purpose was we want there to express our face to people in North Korea. There wasn't the concern.

There wasn't the main purpose anyway. So even though we do have, you know, most people that are went into North Korea, so almost like they were taking it as we call it intercessary prayer walk tour in a way, so that we will go places, suddenly we'll be praying, maybe we will worship together in a small group, but mainly that we just wanted to build just a connection with the people in North Korea. And many of them, because they're from different countries, and for them, North Korea is a close country.

They never have an opportunity to visit, but we are able to open the door at the time. So the people, their curiosities and then purpose of prayer, and then to be able to make a connection with the people in North Korea. But nothing, if we look at it as a tour itself, There's nothing much religious or purpose of go and trying to win their heart or anything. In that purpose, no. But we are there as Christians to be able to go and spend time with the people in North Korea.

In terms of the intercessory prayer, was there a group consensus to pray for regime change? It's not really because that's something depending on whoever praying or whatever, I can't really control what they're praying. I've prayed for that in some of it. But it was not a group. It wasn't like every group would go and say, let's bring down the wall or just change the regime. No, no, that wasn't the case. Right, okay.

And during that 17 trips, I imagine you developed relationships with North Korea guides, officials, with other people who you regularly saw workers in the hotel or bus drivers and things. Did you feel that these were genuine relationships? I do believe so. The most people I met, they're just a common people. There are low-level officials and most people that I met that we developed a good relation to friendship. And so I didn't really have, you know, but maybe there's a couple of people that because their job is make sure that we don't do anything illegally. So there are some security officers that they were a little strict and they were a little, I don't want to say mean, but they had character.

They have to show some character in a way. Are they dressed in a particular way? Was there a uniform or a hat or something? Just the regular, they're North Korean, you know, the party uniforms, you know, those kind of things. But it wasn't anything different. They weren't military personnel or anything like that that were with. How did you, in your mind, make that distinction between normal people and, you know, the system, the government, the elites? We didn't really get to that far.

Mostly we are visiting the marketplaces, school, orphanage, and some beaches or we went on to the mountains. like you know, climb the mountains and famous places. So we're doing a lot of tourist activity like tourists. We weren't really doing anything else. And so the people we met, they're just mostly just the common regular people that then we'll just say hi to them or we happen to bump into them at the marketplaces. We'll make, you know, we have small talk here and there, but nothing much. We're just the regular people.

They're just regular people that we just, you know, in it. Were there moments during those first 17 visits when you thought the North Korean authorities might suspect what you were doing behind the scenes in terms of the... No, I don't think so. No, we weren't under investigation or anything like that. So there's no warning that you were getting close to the line? No. And do you now believe that the North Koreans genuinely did not know what you were doing, or is it possible that they knew considerably more than you realized, but they chose not to act until that day in November 20th? Yeah, it was actually in 2012, November 3rd that I was actually arrested.

But they, it wasn't, I didn't have any issues, any problem, no indication that anything that I was doing, our group was doing that, you know, caused them alone. But because I was in and out so often, I was able to speak the language, I'm sure they are more, you know, watchful in a way. So they'll just make sure that, you know, I don't cross the line, I'm just doing whatever. supposed to do, which I was doing that. But on my 18th trips, I was, I accidentally brought in the portable computer hard drive to contain the Western media philipa North Korea. That got them into the, the flag went up and then they discovered that at the border, the checkpoints and those

custom officers searched my back and realized. On the way in or on the way in? On the way into North Korea. So that's what got me in trouble. It was a hard drive with some Western films about North Korea. North Korea. Of course. And then also... Were you in those films? No, no.

Okay, but it was just films about North Korea. Yeah, it was a documentary film about North Korea. And then there are other stuff that they've discovered, like my mission support letter, report about North Korea. It's nothing political, but it's just about my activity in and North Korea. From a religious perspective. That's correct. So it was a sooner or later, it was a matter of time that they would discover that I did not just, I was going in.

I wasn't just going in and out as a tour company president, but I was in and out with a religious focus or there's something behind the scene. And they took that as literally there's a threat. And therefore, you know, they told me that I was trying to overthrow the government of North Korea. through prayer and worship. Why do you think they arrested you at that time? Was it really the hard drive that got you arrested? Or was that just simply a good reason, but maybe that's a hard drive? It was something that they couldn't tolerate because they discovered that it was an anti-government

material that I brought in. What is this for? Who are you going to show this to? Where are you going to give this hard drive to? And those kind of questions followed after. Because I'm thinking about there was the Canadian minister, Pastor Lim, who was also arrested in North Korea. I forget the exact year.

I think it was around 2015 or so around then. Yeah, he was arrested in 2015. And he was, if I understand, if I remember correctly, he was arrested on the basis of things that he said in Canada, that somebody heard them in Canada, reported them back to North Korean authorities. Yeah, his case is very different than my case because he was in and North Korea

more than 150 times over 25 years or so. So he was well known in North Korea. He has given so much of humanitarian age to North Korea to help many projects as well. So in my case, it's very different because he was speaking at a church one of the church, and then they put it on the YouTube. And then one of the things that he said was that North Korea, you know, the leadership is pure evil. So once they cut that line in YouTube, someone reported,

Someone found out about it, and they were upset, definitely. And they said, whatever he, let's make sure he come in again. Right. And then we were arrested him and make him as one of those examples. I think that's what happened. Because they wanted to arrest him before he was able to go back to North Korea at the time. But in my case, they just accidentally discovered computer hard drive. They let me, they're into my arrest.

And then they started to realize that, okay, you are. Christian operator in a way, are you working with CIA or I use CIA? You know, those kind of question follow. But they realized that, you know, I wasn't, but they decided to charge me with this crime against the state. I was trying to overthrow the government of North Korea through prayer and worship. And they took it literally. And then they wanted to make sure that I paid for my crime. And I was supposed to be sentenced to death or life in prison. But I ended up, I went through a five-month pre-trial their period and then my trial only lasted 90 minutes and then I got 15 years of hard labor sentence I was the first American after Korean war was sent to North Korea

labor camp and then so I ended up spending altogether 7 35 days in North Korea so coming back to the hard drive you yourself had warned your tourists don't bring anything in So it's ironic that you are the one who was arrested because you brought in the wrong kind of material. It does kind of show, I suppose, that anyone could really make that mistake, you know, after 17, 18, 150 times, they might bring in something by accident that they shouldn't. I do believe so. Yeah. Because most of time, it's just an ironic thing is even going through the border and go through the custom,

even custom office oftentimes they don't have electricity. Right. They can't even scan things. So sometimes they just bypass everything inside. But that time, some reason, electricity was working. And they were thorough, you know, looking at their screen. And then they discovered this, you know, it's a metal hard drive. So they just discovered that.

And they wanted to check the contents. And that's how I got arrested because of that. At what moment did you realize this is a serious problem? I'm in trouble. Oh, yeah, you know, when they were starting, when they discovered, the Port of Hard Drive, they brought that into one of the room, and then more commercial was happening, a lot more people were going in. So I knew that I was in trouble at the time.

But they let me go after confiscating the Port of Hard Drive. And so I was able to bring the group to the city. And then I knew that someone was going to come for me. And then about obviously six hours later, that someone came in and arrested me at that time. Six hours later, right. And when they discovered that hard drive and the contents on it, Did the behavior of the officials towards you change?

I mean, they were, they were shock, the fact that I brought something like that in. And then, so there are the people that didn't really have much of relationship. They're working for a customer office. So, you know, there were a couple of people who were pretty upset, but they let me go anyway. So let me go. So let me go means, okay, we'll take your, we'll confiscate your hard drive, but I let you go with your group. and continue on your tour.

They didn't stop me from border and they didn't arrest me at the border. I see. But they let me take my group to the city. We checked into the hotel, but I knew that I was in trouble at the time. So when did they come back and arrest you? About six hours later.

Oh, I see. Okay. So you're at the hotel. So we got to the city. We had lunch and then we checked into the hotel. And then we're supposed to do a little bit of sicing. nearby and then after that that I knew that you know something like that could happen and the black car pulled in and then took two two people were they in uniform they were wearing just

the black suit you know one of the dark suit so they just came and say are you Kenneth bay and say yes and we need to come with us and so that's how I got arrested who do you think those people were which agency do you think they were from no they're from National Security of what we call the Boibu or the Boisong? That's correct. Right. And was there a point at which you thought during that day, I may not leave North Korea alive? So I was trying to explain to them, especially for three days, that it was a pure mistake.

I have no harm, no any intention to harm the regime or the country in any way. I just, I didn't even know that I had those kind of film that the movies in my, hard drive because I copied, you know, some, I was copying my hard drive from the one of the computer and I was, we were sharing computer before, so someone that I knew that gave me those films, I forgot about that and then it got copied over to this new hard drive. I was explained things like that, but they didn't believe me, so first of all. And then so, and then I realized that, because not only that, but they also have, they found that I was actually a missionary and pastor working in and out of North Korea.

So once they discovered that, I was worried now only for myself, I was worried about the people I brought in. Are they going to be okay because of my mistakes? And also the people that I was working with or I had a relationship with, there are about 20, 30 names they could have discovered in my hard drive. So I could get a lot of people in trouble. I was more worried about other people because of my mistake, what would happen to those people rather than what had happened to me. But after my group that I brought in

were able to leave the country safely, they were able to go, they let them go. They were arrested. And then I was able to say, okay, look, I'm actually a pastor, a missionary. I brought people to North Korea to pray for people, North Korea. And we just, our purpose is to see the land and pray and worship. That's what we've been doing. And that was the truth, and I wanted her to make sure that they understand that it was just a pure mistake that I brought this hard drive. So I apologize and apologized, but there was things getting worse. And then they said, you're going to overturn the government in North Korea. Hold that thought for a moment.

I want to ask you, you mentioned that you were worried about getting other people in trouble. Was there a concern that you might have also endangered some of the North Korea, Korean people who are working with you? No, I wasn't working with other North Koreans at the time, or we didn't have any, so it wasn't the issue, but. But you weren't worried about the local guides or the, no, no, no, I wasn't worried about anything to jeopardize their safety. We didn't share the gospel, God spoke, some messages with them, I didn't try to convert them,

and I'm trying to recruit them in any way. It wasn't the purpose at all. So they, they check and they, I'm sure they were investigating all. these people that I had a relationship with in North Korea or outside of North Korea, but they didn't find anything. And then luckily, at the time, nobody was harmed and no one was arrested. And so it wasn't the issue. I didn't know at the time, but at the end, I found it later on.

I found it later that no one was harmed. I want to talk a bit about fear, violence, and the threat of death. I've spoken, you're not the first person I've spoken to who has been arrested and interrogated by North Korean Asians. I've spoken to a couple of foreign citizens, most of whom, actually all of the ones that I've spoken to, haven't been physically hurt. Do you think this is a pattern? Because I understand from your book that you also were not physically beaten up during your interrogation, right? So do you think that that's a pattern that they tend not to use physical violence against foreign citizens?

I think that's a particle, but not necessarily there will be this case for every foreigner, depending on what they have done or what the severity of information they want to get. But what I couldn't lie to them because it was all in my hard drive anyway. They would discover what I was doing, who am I, what I was, you know. So all this thing is already open books. So for me, even though I was trying to stall to me, you know, and them as long as I could because I wanted to make sure the group I brought in, they were able to leave the countries.

Once they're out, all the thing I can say is, look, you know, I am a pastor and missionary. I brought people here as religious in a way of purpose, which is to just pray and worship. We weren't here to try to do anything else. However, if that's the crime, I apologize. That's the only thing I was doing. So, but, and then they did mention that they didn't make a threat that we would cut your head off somewhere. We were take you out and shoot you on the square, and things like that. I mean, they didn't have, and then one time they told me to, I had to kneel on the concrete floor for hours.

So those kind of thing is actually for more torture. Sure, sleep deprivation, sleeping, stress position, standing for long time. And then, you know, those, that's really, there was something like they made me stand still for hours. Yeah. Without moving or I only was able to sleep for about three or four hours a day. They only give me a little bit of food. I mean, these kind of things were there. But it wasn't physically.

They were, like, torturing me, you know, with all the torture method. But did you believe that they could physically hurt you if they wanted to? I do believe that it was necessary. And that actually, you know, the guy who's in charge of the, you know, the boybu, National Security Bureau of the Rassan City. He told me that we don't need to be violent because you're going to tell us anyway. But if we need to, we could. But we don't need to.

That's the kind of... But for foreign citizens, especially a western citizen. But if I was Chinese national, there would be very different. Because I do see, I have heard that some Chinese, there were beaten, they were tortures. Really? Yeah. So Chinese citizens. Yeah.

Some Chinese, some citizens that they were caught. Was it ethnic Korean Chinese? Like Joseon-Jor? It could be ethnic Chinese or could. behind Chinese. But whatever the crime might be, I mean, it could be like they were smuggling drugs. I don't know. I don't know what they mean.

They were not in your room. No, no, no. I'm just saying that is what I heard from before after, I realized that some of the Chinese people were Chinese national, they were caught. And, you know, they could have those severe issues. Like, well, once I went to the labor camp, then I realized that there were before the only, you know, only other prisoners that, you know, this was for foreigners only prison. Okay.

But they said they were all Chinese. Except for you. But nobody was with me at the time. Before that, yeah, there were Chinese people. Yeah. Now, I understand that there was a moment where a North Korean official threatened to throw a glass ashtray at your head. Was that the boy-blue man, you mentioned before? Yes.

Okay. What do you remember about those moments? Did you believe at the time that you might actually do it? Well, we're like this much distance. It's like two feet away. So if he was going to throw, and he could. But he had said to you that he wasn't going to be violent. No, that's a different person.

Oh, sorry. Yeah. Yeah, so there would be the main chief official would say that. But this wasn't, this way was the first day that he mentioned. But once the things wasn't going in their own way or that they didn't get the answer, they wanted it. And the guy who was, you know, the investigating, he got really upset one couple of times. So he picked up the astray and, yeah, he did that a couple of times, but he didn't throw it to me. Do you think that that was spontaneous anger rising up in him or did it feel calculated?

I don't know. I mean, could be both. Okay. Okay. Generally speaking, did your interrogators want you to believe that physical violence was a possibility, even if they didn't use it? I do believe there was possibility. And did you hear from any of the other rooms around you in the interrogation center that anybody else was being hurt? No, I think I was the only one there because that was part of this area. I mean, I didn't see any evidence that anybody was detained at the time. When did the idea of execution, when was that first mentioned to that you might be executed? That was why I was in Rassan, when I was being investigated.

They said if you don't write the confessions, this was the what I was. you're facing right now. So therefore, you need to write full confessions. You know, so that's the one I heard. And then when I went to Pyongyang, I was detained in the Pyongyang Boi-Rus, you know, one of those units. With that before your trial? Before trial. And then they also mentioned that we will take you out and shoot, you know, if you don't, do not follow along with this. So I have to make sure that I signed the confession. to stick with the story, they make me sign.

So they were for, you know, they said if you refuse to do this, that we don't need to even go through the trial. We can just take you out and just end this. How were you transported from Rassau to Pyongyang? Through Toyota, you know, 4x4, one of those, a land cruise. Oh, a foreign car, okay. And there was a, how long was that drive? Two days.

So we left like six. 6 in the morning, and it was in November, it was early December. Were you able to see? Yeah. They didn't blindfold you? No, no. Okay. So you saw the whole journey from Rassan to Pyeong.

But there were about four people in the car without me. I was in the middle, in the back seat. There are two people in the side and two people in front. And then just another one person is supposed to go to Pyongyang, so he was just coming alone. For the ride. But three people were, they were part of the four people. Was there a conversation? There was some conversation.

Yeah. How did that go? They're back, by then I signed the confession. By then I was transferring. They saw me that I was actually going to Pyongyang. And I will be maybe spending maybe a week or two or so, maximum month. And then I'll be sent home.

So I was actually relieved going to Pyongyang at the time. I didn't think that I was going to be tried. Ah, you know, I didn't tell me I was actually going home from Pyongyang. They didn't tell me that I was going to be tried. be, you know, going through the trial. So when did you then realize that, oh, I'm going to trial, I might actually be executed? That's the, after we arrive in about first two days, they let me just sleep and then me just rest. I guess they were going, they were looking at all this confession.

Because you'd written a long confession, right? 200 pages or so? About 300 pages. 300 pages. So, but three days later, actual prosecutor came in, in the room. And then they told me that I was going to be charged with a crime against the state and that I was going to do the trial. And then your maximum penalty would be death or life in prison. So that's the one I was told.

And this is, you know, but I didn't realize that that's the direction that it was going to go. So that's the one I find out in December in 2012. Right. Now, my colleagues here at NK News have written about the number of South Korean citizens who have been held in North Korea for many years with little hope of release. I forget the exact number. It feels like it was around six or seven. You're an American citizen. Do you believe that that American citizenship protected you from the worst possible treatment?

I do believe so. I realized after I was sent to the labor camp, and then I was able to watch some of their teachers. TV and news and so on. But then I realized there are South Korean missionary or pastors. There were captures and caught. They were in TV. They were actually doing a full confession in TV and so on. And then so I was asking the guard and staff members and said,

are they going to be coming here because it's the foreigners, you know, the labor can. And they said no, because they are not considered to be foreigner. They're a South Korean citizen, which means they're. They're North Korean citizens. Pretty much there is that there. There are people, they'll be going to the regular prison. So, and then because of their South Korean citizen, a number of the people that have been captured or kidnapped before,

most of people could not come back. So that's the case that their longest, they've been there for last 14 years, 13 and 14 years already. And then, but all three of them were charged with crime. It's the same as me, pretty much. but they got life sentence and they're serving life sentence even after 13, 14 years since they're captured. Do you have any idea what it is that sets your case apart from that of the late Otto Wambia who was returned to the United States in a comatose state and then died shortly afterwards?

Prior to my case, there are other cases. There were other Americans who were captured and then they were released after. But I was the only one actually was sent to labor camp. Right. So I was held the longest. And so I went through, I mean, even though I wasn't killed, but there were two or three times I was critically, you know, going through the difficult stage, like my nutrition, the back pains and all kinds of physical failures that took places.

But I was able to come home. So I thought that every American would come home. So I was encouraging even Auto One Beers family when they reach out to our family. And they say, I'm sure if he's a young man, he will come home soon because I came home. I never realized that they will treat him that way. And then something happened in North Korea, definitely. Do you have any idea what? I have no idea.

But this came from, that they treated him differently to the way they treated you? I do believe so. Because I don't know, because something that they're not telling the public, that what he has done, maybe there's certain little, mistake that he did something that really triggered this kind of response, but they never done that to other Americans before, other than maybe one or two people. They got severely beaten before because of it crossed the river illegally and things that happened before.

But like Robert Park and then, you know, but auto-hombie really don't, really just can only guess that what would, he was under another tour company. He was in Pyongyang. This young man celebrating, I'm sure, something was just maybe mischievous things that happened. But even the death of no reason to sentencing 15 years hard labor. I think he was sent to the same prison that I was in. And the same term? 15 years.

But I believe that within about after a sentencing within a month or so, until he was sentenced, that it was, according to TV news, that he was still physically able to walk. And even though he was in, you know, he looked like, you know, he looked like, you know, was going through quite a bit of the old year at the time. But he was still alive. You know, there's no, I mean, you know, was still able to, you know, speak and everything like that. So, but after about a month or two, after that, in a way, I call it Shray, you know, the trial and everything.

But something happened after that. So there's no reason to put him on TV, then torture him. So I don't know. Maybe there's discovered something new information, or maybe accidentally something happened at the labor camp. I have no idea. Now, in case of your testimony, you wrote about 300 pages, all about, and this is quite common.

I understand that generally people who are interrogated North Korea have to write more or less the whole life story from start to finish. And sometimes that gets torn up and you have to do it again. Yeah, that's what happened. Yeah, that's what happened to me. Right. So they didn't like what I wrote, and they said write again, right again. So that's why it turned out it was all 300 pages.

But everything I wrote, even just something, scrap papers, they put it all together, took it to Pyong, took it to Pyong. And then they were reinvestigating, checking all the stories. And it took about five months before actually put me on the trial. How difficult is it to resist an interrogator when you have no idea whether resistance will make your situation substantially worse? So the only thing that I could do, because, you know, like I told you before,

because I had a hard drive, there's no point of denying it in a way is what I was doing before, my identity as missionaries, working inside of North Korea and also in China. Therefore, so it was no point of resisting in any way that if I do so, it would make things worse. So the only hope that I had was that the U.S. governments were quickly intervened to find a way to get me home.

Did you ever say anything that you knew wasn't true because you thought it would help you to survive? Well, they were accused me I was trying to overthrow the government in North Korea. So I didn't agree with that fact that I was trying to overthrow the government of North Korea. But I did ask people to pray for people in North Korea. But they said people probably pray against us, not pray for us, pray against the regime. Therefore, you are trying to promote Christianity into the countries and trying to convert everybody.

And therefore, you were, you know, so I had to say yes to whatever they're accusing. And then that was part of my confession. So that's something that, because they told me that if I signed, the paper, then I'll go home. So that's why I signed it. But after I signed it, they said, see, you confess, therefore you're going to be tried and you are going to pay for your crime.

So that's what happened in, you know, Pyongyang. So I said no, because I said, then I say, look, this is what the investigator told me to sign. And they even told me to write exactly the way that they wrote. and I was copying every word and signed the paper. And therefore, if I'm going to be tried, if I'm going to go to prison or be executed, then I'm not going to go along with it. And this is when they say that it's all going to take you out and shoot or cut your head off somewhere

and bury you, nobody will find your body. And they're pretty much saying that it's going to get a lot worse. We're going to take you away from this place and put you into some hole somewhere. So they're making a threat. So I had no other choice. Are you afraid? I wasn't really afraid, afraid, but I realized that there's no point of doing anything. I mean, there's no way that I can get out of it.

Whatever I say, you're going to make things worse. Let's talk about the North Koreans who were holding you. You spent 735 days in custody. Who were the people that you saw every day? Mostly the prison guard. What kind of people were they? Just they're working for, you know, their prison system, and they wear their uniforms, like a military officer uniform.

They're like captains or lieutenant in the army's uniform like that. Did you come to know their names? No. No. Did you learn anything about their families? A few people. It's a little bit about themselves. So I was now only in prison, but I was sent to the hospital because of my nutrition.

Some of the guard that came with me. And so we, so that's why, you know, we're able to talk some time and to talk about their family members and things that happened before. So I didn't know their family's, you know, members' name or anything like that. But some had a teenager, some as a little kids. And so we're just talking about casual conversation. Did any of those guards become, in some strange sense, kind of like friends? In a way that we kind of became friends at the end. You know, some of the people that I got to know them, you know, personal level.

So they were, you know, not everybody were friendly, but few people we were able to develop genuine. I do believe that friendship that was actually genuine. Was it possible for a guard to be friendly to you while still participating in a system that was imprisoning you and treating you unkindly? If they need to, they could happen. If I was not going alone, if I was violating their rule or if I wasn't listening to them or if I wasn't really working, finished my task that I was assigned, then I could have been, you know, I could have got a lot severe treatments. But I was going alone and I was supposed to be the model, you know, prisoner at the time. So they kind of keep them. You were the only one?

That was only one, yeah. Did any guard ever quietly say to you that, look, I think this is wrong, what's happening to you, but, you know, I have to go along with it? No, they couldn't say anything like that, yeah. And no one ever apologized to you, I imagine? No, no. What did the guards believe about America? You being a Korean for America.

What did they believe? Well, you know, for them, America is just like they learned all these years. And their American extension is to conquer Korean Peninsula and then just rule people over enslaving everybody, enslaving everybody. That's the typical stereotype. type. They were taught that way, and they do believe that way. So they thought that, first, I thought that I was actually a spy. They were sent by, you know, Americans or State Department sent me, as of, you know, somebody working in and I, North Korea. And then once they realized, once we,

you know, I wasn't related to any government, any type of intelligence gathering, you know, missions. And then, and then we are curious about, what is it like to live in? in the U.S. and how much people make a month. So there are some people who ask questions like that. So you think that by the time you left after 735 days, they realized that you were just another person? Of course. After two years among these people who were interrogating, threatening, imprisoning you,

did you come away angry with North Koreans or more sympathetic towards them? I wasn't really angry. My anger, I wasn't really bitter. away, but I was in a way that I realized that my freedom was taken away for two years, obviously, because my family suffered, I suffer mentally, you know, physically. So therefore, there are certain type of longing and bitterness there, but I was really more concerned that I was able to leave the country. But what happened to all these people, 26 million people, living like their own prison system in a way that everybody's a prisoner, everybody is a slave, and they're locked up

at the time for 70 years. Now is about 81 years. They've been living in that system and everybody's a prisoner of their own system. Is there a part of Kenneth Bay who went into North Korea in 2012 and never came back? I still feel like I'm still living in North Korea because that I'm, you know, from 2016 on that I moved to South Korea. I'm working with people who left North Korea, North Korean defectors and refugees. So I meet more North Korean day-to-day basis than the South Koreans in no way. And then I'm doing broadcast things and everything that I'm doing right now related to North Korea. So I still have sympathy and longing for people in North Korea.

And someday I would like to go back and see the people that I had relation in grieving guards. Some of the people that I wanted her to go back. And I'm sure there will be a reunion some days. But even there are some, you know, people, not everybody was friendly and kind. And they were yelling and screaming and all kinds of stuff happened. Prison is prison, you know. And so they thought that I was trying to overturn the governments. So they were really, you know, upset the fact that I was trying to.

They thought that I was getting better treatments than the other North Green, you know, inmates. That's probably true. So therefore, they were for, they didn't like. the fact that, you know, why are you, why easy getting special treatments? Because I was getting first few months, they even gave me some bread and, you know, jam and things like that in the morning. But they all changed after that, after a few months. But first, they were trying, they thought that I was there for a couple months and then U.S. government were taking me home. So I was the one that they wanted to make sure I paid for my crime in a way that I learned my lesson.

but they were going to send me home. But some reason, that didn't happen because they couldn't have, they couldn't get whatever they were asking from the U.S. government at the time. I feel like I became the political pawn that was kind of stuck in prison system at the time. Well, let's fast forward to where you are now. So you've started this new, new Korea Foundation International, which has the new hope career broadcasting? That's correct.

Tell us about that. And what is it and what are you trying to do? Yeah, so when I came back to North Korea, I came back from North Korea, I wrote a book called Not Forgotten. So it's my memorial about my time in North Korea, why I went to North Korea, what happened in North Korea? But I realized that I was able to come home, but all these people living in North Korea, they're living without any freedom. So I wanted to ask people around the world.

Now, you know, so many people that when I was in North Korea, prison, they prayed for me, they remember me, they wrote kind of like a petition to President Obama and please bring Kenneth Pay home. More than 177,000 people signed the petition to White House. So I thought that maybe then my role is to asking people, as you pray for me, as you advocating for my release, would you do the same for people in North Korea now? So I studied something called, at the time was in the Miami Global Initiative. But now it's called New Korea Founding. International, same company, we just changed the name. We wanted to be an advocate for people living in North Korea, that they will be free

someday, and they will live like a human being, just like everybody else. And so we're working with advocacy and working with North P.M. Defector resettlement. We are helping them with education, getting job, and just having the assimilating into system in South Korea. And then I realized after COVID happened, and realized, is that still North Korea issue hasn't changed. There's a nuclear issue. There's a human right issues.

But I realized that with the last couple years, especially all the funding from U.S. government has been kind of dried up. Yeah. Free OA and Voice of America and RFA, Radio Free Asia, they were either suspended or they had to shorten their hours of transmissions to North Korea. And the South Korean government decided shut down their broadcasting. radio and TV to North Korea. And all the small companies that civilian own, you know, the radio programming all got affected by it because there's no funding from other sources. So I realized that,

okay, then it almost became information on dark age in people who want to know what is really happening outside North Korea. So we decided that what if we start broadcasting, even though we have no funding, but we wanted it to start something so that bring in truth to people in North Korea, they need to know the truth and what is really happening outside because they're only getting used from the North Korean governments, which is not true a lot of time, and there will be limited resources they have. So I wanted to make sure they understand, you know, what is happening, what happening in Venezuela, Iran, Ukraine, especially about North Korean deployment and all kind of stuff that North Korean will never tell them.

So we wanted to start this channel because these are the role, the VOA and the RFA and other organizations have been doing that before. But because there was a vacuum, we wanted to bring truth into North Korea. And then we wanted to bring hope. So that's why I call it New Korea hope broadcasting. How do you broadcast it in North Korea? We use short-waved radio signal, transmission from outside. So we produced in South Korea and Seoul, but we were transmits.

we will have it transmit to North Korea from outside source. How many hours a day? Right now, we started with 30 minutes, about three times a week, but now we're doing one hour a day, six times a week. I plan is to expand it to about two hours a day, seven days a week by next year. So that's our goal, and we're trying to aim that.

So we want to bring in truth and hope and restorations, and so that we're not only giving them information, but also we wanted to give them hope. So we had a... Religious hope? Some religious, but some, like, we have like this letter of hope section. Our listeners, everybody can participate on that. If you go to NKHB.org, it's in English, and you can actually write a letter to people in North Korea.

And then the encouragement letter, you know, just saying that if you send it to us, we will read it on air so that there will be kind of delivered through radio signal to people in North Korea that people outside care because when I was in North Korea, someone started a letter writing campaign for Kenneth Bay. I received more than 450 letters. They're all saying that it's, Kenneth, you are not forgotten. We are remembering you, we're praying for you. Because North Korean government continues saying that you've been forgotten, you've been left behind. Did those letters reach you while you're in prison?

I got about 300 letters. came to you. The North Koreans would give you. So it wasn't a physical letter, but it was sent to North Korea government directly. It was the email that collected by the one of the people who studied the projects and then send it to our family. Our family sent it to the State Department. Yes, State Department was sending to embassy in China.

Embassy in China was sent it to Swedish embassy in Pyong. And they print everything out and then give it to counterpart in North Korea. and then that's how I got it. So all this printout form of North Korean, I mean, the letters that came. And there was only two letters that people actually send it directly to Swedish embassy. And so a postcard and things like that, I was able to receive those letters. People around the world, people from Germany, Sweden, and even like, you know, Africa and Brazil, and all these countries, the people who start writing and saying that it hang in there.

We're praying for you, where you'll come home soon. So I wanted to make sure we do the same for the people in North Korea. So this is what we have been doing, sending a letter of the hope to us. And then if you send it to us, we were read it on air so that the people in North Korea will be able to listen to your message of hope. Now, there's so much more that I'd love to ask you, but I know that we're running short on our time here. So I've got one last question. For recently, you shared with me an op-ed that you published with UPI in which you argued that this generation must be the last, divided generation of Korea and that South Korea must stop waiting for unification and start

building towards it. Now, how is that possible under the current circumstances? Well, it seems almost impossible to make it difficult, but I do believe that our longing for reunifications, that our first generation, either defectors or people who left home during the Korean War, all these people still hope is to be able to return home someday, to be able to reunite it with their family members. So it wasn't so much of other circumstances, but freeing people in North Korea and family being united. So they've been waiting for 80 years,

but now they're getting old and they don't have much time left. And also for our young people, and they grew up, you know, when realized that countries are divided. And so they grew up with like this mindset. It's a we are South Koreans, but we are not, they're considered as I'm South Korean, but there's no.

Korean identity as a whole, and they don't, they say, it's going to be more burdensome to be united with North Korean labor because they're going to have so much they don't have. So I realize that with the nuclear issues, with their economic issues, and all this humanitarian issues that we are facing day to day, and it's not getting better. And then with the President Trump, met with Kim Jong-un for three times. Still, nothing has changed, and then it's almost like, like their nuclear problem, I mean, the progressions got even stronger, and then also the human rights violations even getting worse. So I do believe that in order to end all this, end time, you know, end goal of this,

it will be through the only reunification of North and South Korea. We can stop the nuclear, I mean, we can solve the nuclear issues, stop humanitarian issues and human rights issues. And therefore, that I do believe that we need to find a way to bring this, you know, igniting the fire again and to the people in South Korea. And then also people in North Korea will realize that they are a better future outside.

Once they just realize that what is it like to live outside of North Korea, I'm sure there are all the people I met in North Korea, they said their heart is still for reunification. And they all want to be united because we are one country, one people. And therefore, with current, you know, situations with country being divided and with two host of state policy the North Korea is now trying to enforce and then with South Korean governments also thinking about going through two Korea policies to you know a compromise whatever it might be it seems like would it

possible ever that were two countries reunited but there are people you know in and outside of North South Korea and global community that really ruling for people in North Korea and then wanted to see that through the unification loan, they would now bring a regional peace, but it will be beneficial for even for Chinese government, Chinese people, and even for people in North Korea, even for the United States.

So therefore, we're trying to find a way to advocate and trying to mobilize people and asking people to unite it, and so that we want to, to say, no, we don't want two Korea policy. We want one Korea policy, and we want our legislators know that, that this is still the main heart of the Korean people, and therefore the Korean reunification need to be Korean-led reunifications,

and this, we still need an international community support in order to achieve this together. So anything could happen in North Korea's situation, you know, is a one man's country. So anything happened to this one person, anything can change. But before that happened, we need to prepare the people. We need to also act told to that because this is a Korean constitutional mandate. At the same time, there are still so many people willing to sacrifice, you know, whatever

it might be in order to achieve this goal of reunification, reunifying the two countries. Well, thank you, Kenneth. We're going to have to end it there, but thank you very much for your time today. It's been great talking to you. Well, thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that brings us to the end of today's episode of North Korea Unpacked with me, Jacko's Wedslute. Our thanks go to Brian Betts and David Choi for facilitating this episode and to our post-recording producer genius Alana Hill. Thank you and listen again next time.