North Korea News Podcast by NK News - Matchmaking across borders: Documenting North Koreans relationships in the South

Episode Date: June 26, 2025

In this episode, Norwegian artist and director Morten Traavik and cultural mediator Sun Kim discuss their new documentary “North South Man Woman.” The film explores the emotional complexities of North Korean defectors trying to build lives — and relationships — in South Korea, with a special focus on matchmaking between DPRK women and ROK men. […]

You're listening to an exclusive episode of the NK News podcast available only to subscribers. You can listen to this and other episodes from your preferred podcast player by accessing the Private Podcast feed. For more detailed instructions, please see the step-by-step guide on the NK News website the Hello, listeners, and welcome to the NK News Podcast. I'm your host, Jaco Zwetsud, and this episode was recorded on Monday, the 2nd of June, 2025. It is the eve of the presidential election in South Korea, but that's not what we're here to talk about today. We're recording this episode via StreamYard, and I have two guests, one returning and one here for the first time. Norwegian artist and director Morten Travik has undertaken several

provocative and boundary pushing art and film projects involving North Korea. His works often explore themes of cultural exchange, propaganda, and the role of art in politically charged environments. His collaborator Son Kim is a Korean American and Belgian cultural mediator and producer of a number of Morton's groundbreaking exchanges with North Korean cultural authorities for over a decade. The last time I talked to Morton on this podcast was in 2019. Gosh, six years ago already on episode 103 about his 2016 co-production Liberation Day. Now he has a new film called North South Man Woman co-produced with Son Kim who also worked with Morton on Liberation Day. So welcome back on the show Morton Travik and welcome on the show for the first time Son Kim. Thank you Jekyll.

Thank you. So North South Man Woman it seems much more serious than Liberation Day. And that time you had North Korean accordionist play A-ha's Take on Me. Why did you choose to approach this one as a straight documentary rather than a playful or performative project? Well, I think the content kind of has to decide the nature, the theme and the nature of the issues at hand will automatically kind of lead your way or you have to just follow where the action leads you. So I think this particular film is also a much more personal and individual perspective than Liberation Day,

which was, you know, a huge circus. So I think we're, we're kind of narrowing, we're still working with in one way the same theme about overcoming, seeming, you know, huge, huge leaps over a business of cultural differences, but this time in a much more personal format since we're dealing with matchmaking, relationships, but still with this North-South perspective. So I think the film decided for us what direction to take. Son, it's not without moments of lightness and humor, but there's a lot of sadness in this film, at least for me. The first interview that I hear is one woman who describes how she escaped from North Korea

four times and at one stage even contemplated suicide if she were to fail. How did you see that balance of darkness and light in this film? I think you need that darkness and the escape from North Korea to ground what comes after, which is this is their happily ever after story. And we wanted that contrast. So I think very early on in the film, you need that information in order to understand this is not about the escape, but this is about what happens after that escape. After the darkness, is it possible to have lightness and find love and meet your match? Yeah, yeah. Well, those are definitely some things

that we'll come back to. Also near the start of this film, you show the mourning ceremony that took place in downtown Seoul for a North Korean woman who starved to death in her apartment with her son, all alone here in South Korea. What impact did seeing that and reading about that incident in the news have on the direction of your film, even while you were making it?

This was if I if I remember correctly, this this happened. Hansung Ok, which was her name. This happened in 2019, I think, which was our first actually our first shooting trip, like directly connected to North South Man Woman. And since Eugene, our main protagonist, she had actually been to the same integration class at Hanawong as the other Mrs. Han. So actually our working title for a while, for an early stage of the film, was The Life and Death of Miss Han, since there were two Miss Han, you know,

and we started playing with this concept of, you know, the sliding door idea that what would have happened, these two women with the same family name, although it's, they of course, they are not necessarily related, but the same very common Korean family name, although it's there, of course, they are not necessarily related, but the same very common Korean family name that at some fork in the road, one became very successful in her new homeland. And the other one died from hunger, you know, alone in or starved

to death with her kid. So I think also in the film, it gives, it's a bit like Sun talked about, I think it's important to establish a context for our North Korean settlers, you know, refugees, defectors, newcomers, whatever you want to call them. And you know, language is also politics to such a degree in the issues that we're dealing with. So we thought it was important, not least for people not that acquainted with Korean affairs, which is after all, you know, the main target group of this film, that they understood a little bit of there has to be something at stake so that people can understand what the balance act it really is for many of the northerners who come to South Korea to try to integrate

or choose not to integrate. There are a lot of nuances here that can decide where you end up, I guess. That morning tent in Gwanghwamun, is that something that people without a real understanding of Korean culture do you think would get by watching the film? Would enough of it translate to an audience that wasn't already primed? Maybe not, but I think when you watch that scene, you start to understand the context of what's happening. People in black, I mean the white funeral flowers, the chrysanthemums are very specific to Korea. But I think once you start seeing people talking about it,

standing around, mourning, crying, when you see the fake coffin, I think it all comes together, that context. Yeah. Morten, you've said before that documentary filmmaking requires being part detective, part psychologist, part storyteller. How did those different hats come into play while filming this film North South Man Woman? Well luckily we've been two co-directors, so we've been, I guess, we've been distributing the hats among us also to a certain extent, although both of us have

been wearing more than one hat simultaneously as well. So there's been a lot of hat juggling in this project. But I think just like with the many and quite demanding collaborations that led to the level of trust that enabled us to take LIBAC to North Korea. Establishing trust with your subjects and with your collaborators, that is basically the one fundamental thing without which you cannot operate. After me initially having established the first contact with Eugene and her enterprise, Lovesdoria, the matchmaking agency in 2019. It was absolutely essential to get somebody like Sun on board

who both is completely, not only bilingual, but also at least bicultural, if not tricultural, to establish that the necessary level of personal relations since I don't speak, I only speak enough Korean to make people laugh in pubs. So, which can be useful, but once you're that far. So, so you know, it's been. And through Eugene, we also got to meet the other main couple of the film who she matched. So it's been a process of establishing relations with those main protagonists, which it always is in a documentary project. But also, and I think probably some can say something about that too, is that I was at

least a bit surprised about how ready our subjects were to share with us. It was almost like they had been waiting to unload something. And we have a particular scene in the film, which we can tell more about later. Talk a little bit about how hard it was or how easy it was to get people to talk to you. I think that, and this goes for I think all outsiders that arrive in South Korea, I think that when you meet Koreans that live in Korea, they're eager to share, of course, about their culture. But I think it's almost like meeting someone outside of your culture allows you to share something deeper or something that you know you would never be able to say to

a fellow Korean, perhaps because you're afraid that they might judge you. And so with our two characters, and of course all of the people that we met, I did find that at times speaking to perhaps me was almost like maybe a, you know, like speaking to your psychoanalyst, you know, or speaking to your therapist. It's like a moment where you're just speaking and it's just all flowing out.

And as you tell the story, you know, you go through some trauma, you go through some expectations, regrets and happiness and what you got out of it all. And so I would say that, yeah, there were some pretty heavy stories and there are some heavy stories in our, in our that we captured,

but there were also some really high moments as well that I think they wanted to share. Or also talking about what it's like to live in South Korea as an outsider, because I don't think that any of them really feel fully accepted, except when they're perhaps passing, you know, as a South Korean. And frequently you do hear these stories about how they're trying to pass as a South Korean, you know, not to have their... Losing their accent and making up a hometown that they're from, that sort of thing. Right. Or not talking about their past at all, right?

Because people may not ask you where your hometown is, but, you know, they may ask what you're doing now. And so it's like kind of omitting or not talking about that part of yourself until you feel close enough to them. So I think there was that kind of feeling of relief to be able to talk about some of these things with someone who is also an outsider. I guess also that must make you feel that you can never be really personal with anyone, maybe apart from your own tribe, so to speak. As a northerner, you know, changing the accent and maybe avoiding talking about your background and so on. It's a huge part of your life that you carry with you and that

you don't feel able to share with that many people. So that must create also a feeling, I think, of existential loneliness that is further compounded by the hectic pace and very performance oriented daily culture of South Korea, I would say. So I definitely think Sam is right when I've also felt that coming from the outside, but still having some knowledge about the inside. And this is of course a graded thing between me and Sam because she's much more on the inside of the Korean element than I am. But still, since I have been working in North Korea, which is where those protagonists originally

come from, and you know, I can joke and say, you know, and all this stuff, they kind of they noticed that I also have knowledge from the place where they came from, that I've met people, talked to people have gone to North to North Korean, I know North Korean food and so on and so forth. So that in each in our own way and to various degrees, I think me and Sam together are, yeah, we're kind of opening up for them to feel sufficiently safe and also sufficiently that we understand they don't have to explain that much. and also sufficiently that we understand they don't have to explain that much. So they can be quite, quite open and not feel judged. And also, you know, after the passion,

we we fly home again and they don't need to meet us at the supermarket or wherever. Yeah, I would say that not having to explain the North Korean context to someone is a huge plus. Because I think a lot of times they feel quite exoticized or they feel like they have to, you know, give a certain amount of knowledge to the speaker that they are with. Because people have not been to North Korea, they don't understand things, or they haven't been there, they don't know what it feels like to be there. We are not fully exposed to all of North Korea, but I think already these repeated trips, understanding that culture, the language, the politics of it,

I think this already just really puts them at ease. Now, this film really puts a question mark behind the idea of a happy, happily ever after when, when they come to South Korea. You know, it's, it's clear that it's not, it's not all smooth sailing once they, once they cross the DMZ, so to speak. And so I wonder, well, I imagine that some North Korean human rights groups, as well as groups that are sympathetic to DPRK might look at this film and see that it makes the case that defecting to the South can lead to disillusionment or difficulties, hard lives or some kind of failure.

Is that a concern that you've heard and is that a fair reading? Son, you could go first please. Curious to hear the rest? Become an NK News subscriber today for access to the full episode. Head to nknews.org slash join for more information. If you're already a subscriber to NK News, you can listen to full episodes from your preferred podcast player by accessing the Private Podcast Feed. For more detailed instructions, please see the step-by-step guide on the NK News website at nknews.org slash private dash feed.