North Korea News Podcast by NK News - Parades, panaceas and a sunken ship: North Korea-Russia cooperation grows

Episode Date: May 20, 2026

This week on the NK News Podcast, Data Correspondent Anton Sokolin talks about the expanding North Korea-Russia relationship — from military pageantry in Moscow to drone training in Russia’s Far East and a mysterious shipwreck off Spain’s coast. Anton breaks down the significance of North Korean soldiers marching through Red Square for the first time […]

Hello listeners and welcome back to the NK News podcast. I'm Alana Hill here in our studio in Seoul, recording today's episode of the podcast on Tuesday, May 19th. This week, we're diving into the ever-expanding North Korea-Russia relationship. We've got everything from pomp and pageantry in the Red Square to a sunken Russian ship with the cargo list straight out of a spy novel. So to help us make sense of all of that, we're joined by data correspondent Anton Soklin, who has been tracking all these stories. Anton, thanks so much for joining me today. Helen, how are you doing? Anton, let's start today with the military relationship between North Korea and Russia. We're a little bit behind, well, we're not behind, but we're covering a little bit late on the podcast. And that is, of course,

these North Korean soldiers marching through Moscow's Red Square for the first time during one of Russia's Victory Day parades. Just for our listeners maybe who didn't see, we saw a column of 127 North Korean soldiers taking part in the event, marking obviously a symbolic public display of North Korea's role alongside Russia. Kim Jong-un once again skipped the parade, just sending a message to Vladimir Putin instead. Anton, obvious question.

Why was the appearance of these troops in the Red Square significant? Right, so it is significant because it was the very first time ever, right? North Korean troops actually took part in this annual parade. And probably we need to provide a little bit of historical background about that parade, what white matters, right? So the event marks the Soviet Union's victory over Nazi Germany in what Russia calls the Great Patriotic War from 1941 to 1945, which was part of a much larger conflict that we know as World War II.

So this parade took place pretty much every, it takes place annually, every year, but it wasn't like this from the very start. At the very first parade took place, actually, in June, 1945, it was the victory parade, the OG parade, right? And then, actually, the Soviet Union didn't pay them that much attention to this parade and pageantry and celebrated this date only on major jubilees or anniversary. So there were three more major celebrations in 65, 1986, in 1989. Well, then something ran wrong, right?

The Soviet Union kind of fell apart a little bit. And actually until 1995, there was no parade. Okay. So there was no money to host this kind of thing. The country was in peril, right? So only started in 1995 under a Yeltsin, Boris Yeltsin, it became an annual tradition. And it is significant to see North Korean troops marching there because think about it in 2010, Russian President Dimitri Medvedev, he actually invited a whole bunch of not only foreign leaders,

which is a tradition to invite them, but also foreign troops. There were French, there were Americans, they were British, they were Polish, there were Ukrainians marching through Red Square. And, well, again, something happened. And now we are seeing North Korean troops. So obviously, it's just some sort of a testimony to how, testament to how Russia's role and Russia's relations with other countries changed and they evolved over the years. Degrading, clearly degrading relations with the West. Of course, the Ukrainian conflict started in 2014. and then onwards.

And at the same time, Russia setting insights more on eastern partners, right? So there's more presence of China right now. There were last year Chinese troops marched through Red Square. Now we are seeing North Koreans also joining the event. And you can clearly see how these things have shifted towards a new guy. It's a sort of a new world order in which Russia is trying to build and so Russia is trying to position itself on it. And just a reminder, if I'm remember,

correctly last year there were North Korean officials at the parade it's very important to know that yes that last year Kim Janin didn't go this year also and we were also kind of expecting that there would be some soldiers because North Korean contingent was already in Kursk so it's not a big deal to pull out like maybe a hundred just a few dozen people to march in the column so it's no big deal so we were expecting that it didn't happen but instead we saw five North Korean in charge of the Kursk operation that personally met Vladimir Putin, they shook hands. And probably it was while we knew some of them, like Kim Jong-Bok, the main guy, we knew them. We also learned their face.

We knew who these people are behind this operation, right? And we heard their names except bar for one, which was later confirmed anyway. And yeah, that was very significant. And then also, which is also a significant development, we learned about Vladimir Putin's secretly awarding these generals at a secret ceremony that was held in Moscow in the Kremlin in December, last December, and basically he awarded them medals, but this was never reported either by the Kremlin or by Russian media, and we only knew, learned about it from North Korea's footage of the new memorial opened for those soldiers who fought in Kursk. So it's a whole, it's a whole bunch of

of how many do a whole bunch of developments around it and yep so yep so that was last year's parade this year's parade we did see these soldiers now some russian media were saying that these are soldiers who've been fighting in kursk do we know if that's true or and how can we even verify that so that's the there's the thing when when they this kind of assumption that they are those who actually vote there came from the narrator the host of the event saying that and now the column north north North Korean soldiers is going to pass through Red Square led by senior colonel, whatever. Thing is, and then they say North Korean soldiers participated in the liberation of Russia's Korsk region. And by the phrasing of it, you kind of naturally think that, oh, okay, so these are the guys who were there.

And that's how the Russian media presented it without specifically clarifying that all these particular soldiers. Or maybe those soldiers are just there for the marching. and actual regiment is stationed still in Korsk and those guys are still on duty. So we can't really be certain. And another fact, of course, is the uniforms, right? So the column was representing clearly three different branches of the North Korean military, right? They were wearing Navy, Air Force, and infantry uniforms. Well, we only know that North Korea deployed Special Operations Forces units and engineering troops to Korsk.

And, well, these guys belong probably most to the infantry, right? The army. And, well, we haven't heard of any Navy soldiers there. So that kind of raises doubts whether all of them actually have any connection. But maybe some of them could have been some the most privileged ones. And about the privilege probably is what do you want to ask next? Because they were also carrying some interesting things. Yes, yes.

So they were carrying these chrome-plated type 88 rifles. as you said Anton, they wore KPA parade uniforms. Why does this detail matter? Why is this important? So, yeah, in North Korea, in many countries around the world, it's a pretty common tradition to award soldiers or servicemen who distinguishes themselves in combat or training with honorary weapons or give war weapons, right? Well, usually it's pistols or maybe daggers, that sort of stuff, dirks, you know, that's sort of like Admiral Navy Dirk.

And the thing is, North Korea has taken. this whole thing to another level so that they give rifles. Okay. And this rifle is a practically, it's a knock-up of the AK over the Soviet AK assault rifle. And well, it's cromplated and it serves as this memorabilia, right? To award the soldier for their service and to recognize their achievements. In North Korea, this tradition goes back to the pretty much to the founding of the state, to the very early days of the Kim dynasty. And yeah, the assault. gift assault rifles, and usually it entails the participation of the leader itself in this ceremony.

So it's gifted by the leader. It's not always the case. That's the thing. So it might lead you to think, oh, those guys got it from Kim Chunnan himself. But it's also not quite the case because we know that at certain ceremonies, events and parades and such, they actually also march with those in their hands. And it doesn't necessarily indicate that they receive them as awards. It's just for the celebration for display, right, for symbolic purposes. So that doesn't really say as much.

But you mentioned also the uniforms, and I kind of wanted to touch on. So, yeah, they were wearing their national army uniform, Army Navy uniforms. And it was in contrast from the February parade when they were last parade in North Korea, when actually there were these certain soldiers probably two, there were two boxes, one with special operations units and engineers. They march through Kimmerzun Square wearing Russian uniforms. We call these uniforms at Tsifra or, so basically, or Tetris because of the pattern. Oh, interesting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's very distinct part. Russian people know this, this camouflage type. And when they marched, they also carried a Russian flag and the North Korean flag. So it was a display of this symbolic friendship and their, I don't know, alliance with Russia. but it was a bit different in Moscow because my suggestion would be that they did it, they wore their own uniform because they wanted to match their appearance to the grandeur of the event because it's a big event, it's important, it's a major celebration and allies. So it's necessary to present yourself and carry yourself in a certain way. Maybe that.

But at the same time, we could also argue that, well, there were Russian troops who were actually just wearing like combat uniforms, right? So not all of them were very important firms. So they could have also done that instead. Before we move on, I do want to quickly ask you about Kim Jong-man not being there. As we remember, Putin met Kim. 23, am I right? When you went to Pyong-in? 24.

24, excuse me. So kind of feels like it's Kim's turn, right? And obviously this might be a stage where we might expect to see Kim Jong-in. Right. You spoke to experts for your story. And also in your own mind, why do you think that Kim did skip this event? So there is several factors. Well, it's clearly, it's clearly a Kim's turn to visit Russia. I doubt that Putin will ever go again unless Kim visits first.

Because just according to diplomatic protocol and just the tradition, it's his turn. Reciprocal visits. Right. It doesn't have to be necessarily in Moscow. It could be Vladivostok again, the Far East, right? They could go to Klasmond, Rostoch, which is where they meant in 2003. 23, a year before that. So technically, it has to happen, and it could happen somewhere in Russia. Putin is flexible. He can fly wherever he want.

But Kim Junnan is not as flexible. Not so flexible, right. So that's the thing. Usually he travels by his train, right? Armored train. And, well, probably one would suspect that that would be the preferred mode of transportation for this event as well. But, I mean, it's eight days by train to bridge Moscow. So for eight days, it's one way, right?

So it's over two weeks of absence out of the country. So you're out of your office. So you have to be out of the process. You're far away. It's a whole deal, right? So that's just this administrative kind of procedural problems that you're out of the country for so long. Another problem, of course, and probably that's the major factor is, well,

Russia's current conflict with Ukraine, right? which leads to us to the point where Ukraine is currently launching lots of drone attacks, including on Moscow. And in the lead up to the event, there was a lot of talking back and forth between Putin and Vladimir Zelens about whether exchange of threats or a little bit of bargaining, whether we should have a ceasefire on May 9th or we should not have a ceasefire. and then Putin proposed the ceasefire. Vladimir Zelensky kind of up the game by allowing Vladimir Putin to hold the event.

So there was this mutual humiliation and a lot of exchange of this weird wipes between them, too. Point is there was a real risk of Ukrainian drones appearing over Red Square and targeting the events, the participants. And Zelensky himself and members of his administration made pretty much unveiled threats that this was a real possibility. Just before that, like a week ago or a few days before that, a drone crashed not so far from the North Korean embassy in Moscow. So this definitely got reported back to Pyongyang

and seriously discussed the repercussions. And of course, we could also probably assume that, all right, if the train is too long, then whatever, maybe jet. Russia could offer him a VIP jet that they go in and out of country all the time. So that's a possibility. But again, that entails a whole other level of logistical preparation. And Moscow is not Pyongyang. You cannot just shush everyone.

People will figure out where he's staying. So it entails a whole bunch of other preparations they need to make, and they didn't have that much time. Right. So this time, he skipped, pretty much as the other time. Just the difference was that last year, he went to the Russian embassy and actually gave a speech there. And pretty much he kind of hinted that he actually wanted to go to Moscow, but things didn't work out. And this time he didn't. He just sent his congratulatory message to Vladimir Putin.

And right now we know that, well, Russia has extended an invitation to Kim Jong-in to visit the country. And probably now they're expecting because Russian officials once in a while say something like, oh, the visit is in the works, but we will announce you the date later. So we should expect it at any time. But we don't know the dates. So it might happen this year, it might happen next year. Who knows? When it comes to the Victory Day parade, though, likely not just logistics in terms of that really, really, really long train journey, but also Antoninz, he said, and as you detailed in the analysis, he wrote, the really, really real risk of drone strikes.

So probably safety that was a huge component for him this time round. Well, sticking with the military and technology side of the relationship, you also reported this week, it was yesterday actually, that North Korean officials visited a Russian drone training facility in the Far East. Tell us a bit more about this delegation and what exactly did the North Korean see at this drone training center. All right. So starting with the delegation itself, it's original delegation from South Pungan province. The region is known for its agriculture. So it's one of the breadbasket regions. It's not as good as Huanhe, but it's still a major producer of major staples for North Korea. So it's big on agriculture. And when they just went probably many media observers and journalists, they probably just kind of skipped this news because we didn't know what the visit was entailing.

And these delegation visits aren't unusual. Aren't unusual. There is interregional cooperation going on. It was just notable that they went not to Vladivostok, but to this Amur region. And the Amur region is home to Cosmodromevo's solution, the spaceport where Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong-in met before. So this is the second spaceport that Russia operates from which it launches its rockets to space, right? Point is this delegation went to this particular region. So it's kind of obscure, but at the same time it has certain importance.

And of course, being from an agricultural region, you're expected they will have some agricultural deals. And they did talk about this. They visited a whole bunch of agricultural places, some medical facilities, all that. But the main thing that stood out, why would officials from an agricultural region visit somewhere where they actually train drone operators. And, well, the Amur region also happens to host a center for unment aerial vehicles' competencies. So it's basically a drone operator training facility, where we know for a fact that it cooperates with their local enlistment office, which is under the Defense Ministry, and supplies drone operators for the war in Ukraine.

But it's not the sole function of the center. So also it functions kind of like a club where kids also teenagers can gather and just learn how to fly drones because it's fun, you know, with cameras and everything. Speaking of what they learn there, well, we could see from the display of things is that they saw what we call first person view of drones. So it's when you put on goggles or monitor, right?

And you can actually see what the drone sees on battlefield. And these drones have become super-instrued. instrumental in the war. They are everywhere. They're pretty much indispensable right now at this point because of, well, they are cheap. So they're cheap and easy to manufacture. And if you lose them, they're expendable, right? You don't care. You just get another one. And they're deadly. There is very few defendants. This thing that costs like a thousand dollars can destroy a five, six million dollars worth of tank, you know, just in a Jif. So it's a big deal. And we know that North Koreans have paid a lot of attention to this. And we know that.

that Ukraine, for instance, claimed on multiple occasions that Russia does help train North Korean operators. And in the war of Ukraine, we also saw footage of North Koreans. Well, I don't know how efficiently or proficiently using drones, but at least we saw some footage of them using drones. Right, right. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we can't say for certain what they were learning at the center. And, of course, there's also agricultural applications for drones. So maybe that was something that they we're discussing, but as you sent to Anton with the context of the fact that this center is reportedly training Russian servicemen can't overlook it. And also the fact that we know that North Korea has been working to develop its own drones.

Exactly what kinds of UAVs has Pyongyang shown interest in. So in recent years, we can see there's been a little bit of an evolution of North Korean interest towards drones. So because a few years ago, we saw how it rolled out copycats of the US Global Hulk and river, those are expensive machines. They are big expensive machines than they and I mean in the US it costs like many I don't want to say millions but hundreds of thousands dollars it's a very expensive machine. In North Korea maybe it's cheaper whatever we don't know anything about their efficiency because these machines so speaking in late terms right they should be connected to satellite network and they should be connected to the internet and it all should be in coordination with

the ground control. So it's not just your launch this thing and it does whatever it wants. You have to, everything should be in sync. We don't know whether in North Korea has this capabilities. It has only one who have that satellite spinning around orbit. So it's a bit of, it's another question. Speaking of the evolution, they understood that having these big, fancy things, it's not really efficient. If you lose it, you lose it. You don't want to lose it. So they turned their size to, so it's miniaturization of UAVs, right? So they turned their size, set their size on smaller versions. So for example, we know for a fact that they have tested what looked like copycats of Israeli models,

Herup and Harpy. So those are launched from a stand. And they are as deadly, but they're not as big. And again, you can manufacture them quite easily. And while Israel has been using one of the ones. the older variance of this since like the 80s or something. So it's like very old technology. It's not a secret.

To get your hands on it, it's not a big problem. So they've been doing that. And we don't know how many they have. So I also have to caveat. We don't know how big their arsenal is. But the point is they learned that it's better to have smaller, cheaper, expandable drones. They are more efficient in modern warfare

than having this super expensive flying birds, that if they crash, it's a big blow to your budget. Right. So, and then we can also probably mention Russia's role in it, right? Because we learned about some intel from Ukraine that Russia has been not only helping train drone operators, but also help North Korea set up this production lines for its Geron drone. And Geron, it's also an assault drone, and it's a copy of the Iranian Shahat 136. Russia has licensed the thing and modified it already many times.

So it's like the Iranian thing, but it's already not quite the same thing. I think that's a really interesting point as well that sometimes is overlooked. You know, even if we can't deduce for certain that North Korea has certain UAV capabilities or knows how to use them, the know-how that's being shared and the knowledge that they're able to take from this firsthand experience in curse, I imagine it's pretty invaluable from a modern war. fair standpoint. Sure. Now, Antel, another story you reported on this week looks at North Korean pharmaceutical exports

to Russia, specifically Kundang 5. This is a ginseng-based pill that North Korea promotes as a remedy for a huge range of illnesses. Basically, it sounds like a cure-all. Tell us what exactly is Kundang 5 and how North Korean market exists. All right. Kmdan 5, yeah, like you said, it's jinseng-based pill. So in a tablet form, yeah, it says that North Korean marketing materials say that it cures pretty much everything from common cold or flu to cancer. It's not the very first one

and not the only drug that North Korea has touted as like this panacea sort of thing. Because there is also Kim Dan two injection, which has been also on the Russian market for a while. And it's also supposed to help you with pretty much anything. That one is supposed to cure from Mars, AIDS, you name it. Everything. Yes. And of course, we don't know about actually about, actually, their efficacy of it. But the fact that it's making it's making inroads into Russia is notable and Russian online marketplaces, major ones, they actually have it all on sale. So Russians do buy it. And when they buy their delivery, so reviews are a bit split. Some people say, especially it's older people, they say that it helps them. I don't think that it helps them with

this particular diseases like cancer and stuff. It just makes them feel better more like a, and more like a stimulant, you know, more like, because it's ginsan, right? So it's a or stimulant, it makes you feel energized. But I would doubt whether it has any properties that actually can target that particular ailments. And yeah, they're appearing and it's been quite a few years. Now we're just seeing that there's more demand and there is a bit more Russian businessmen and entrepreneurs involved in procuring this, which indicates another thing is that there is a lot

of cooperation, right? We don't know how they make those types, how they link, how they actually come into partnership with one another. But the fact remains that either through local chambers of commerce or the embassy serving as a conduit for that, they actually do get in touch. And individual entrepreneurs, sometimes it's companies. They procure things from North Korea and including the whole variety of these traditional medicines. But again, I want to see some lab report that says, well, this is effective or this is not effective. I've never seen it. And what I have noticed, whenever these drugs appear in Russian official paperwork, they're never actually processed as like, you know, remedies against

cancer because probably the Russian authorities wouldn't let it pass. So they're always, they always passes what they call tonics. Right. Again, we're not medical professionals. We can't speak to the efficacy of these ginseng pills, but it does seem, I think it's fair to say, a little bit far-fetched. When you read the list of what these pills are supposed to be able to cure, it's very interesting to say the least. And, you know, we joke about this in the office. office, one of the importing, you always find really interesting things. But there is a much broader implication in this, and that is, of course, sanctions. Like, is this a sanctions violation? Yeah, normally products that are plant waste are, especially ginsent, they are prohibited from

exportation for North Korea. And their, North Korea is prohibited not only from exporting that, but also from exporting seafood, nuts, and this particular vegetable. So, anything that It has a planned base. It's prohibited. And of course, it may have, it may raise certain sanctions concerns. Of course, it's a minor thing right now. If you take a look at the grand scheme of things, well, there's military partnership. There is a smuggling.

There is everything. This is really minor. But nevertheless, those are the restrictions and probably real professional sanctions experts should put their finger on it and clarify whether this is a sanction, or not because in many cases it's very hard to say what's a sanction violation. Right. Well, Anton, finally, I want to talk about one of the more unusual and potentially significant stories concerning Russia.

This vessel, right to this vessel, the Ursa Major, which sank off Spain's coast in late 2024 after a series of explosions. This report, when you filed it, it blew my mind. It was so interesting. New documents and media reports are raising questions about whether it was actually carrying nuclear reactor components possibly bound for North Korea. I'm sure our listeners' interest is peaked. So can you walk us through what exactly happened to the Eursa major?

All right. Well, the Eursa major is surrounded by a major mystery, right? Because we don't know who sent it, what did it carry? And what the circumstance, right? We have very sporadic reports. So I have to explain it to our listeners that it's not set in stone. The story is still basically divine. because there's so many moving parts and still many unknown parts yet.

Well, you're kind of conflicting reports, it sounds like, too. In some conflicting reports. So, for example, the Russian official position was that this was a terrorist attack by an unfriendly state, right? That caused the initial damage and then the ship sank, right? And again, this was off the coast of Spain where this happened. Right. It's like the southeastern coast of Spain, 60 miles from the city called Cartagena. Okay.

And so it's in between literally Algeria and Spain. Okay. And yeah, so it happened two years ago. It only came to light now. Of course, it made a splash back in the day, no pun intended. Yeah, back in the day, of course, because this ship is operated and owned by O'Baron Logistics, and O'Boron stands for defense in Russia. So it's a baron defense logistics, which means it's under the defense ministry,

and it's a logistics provider for the ministry, right, for the Russian military. And by that, it means that the ship, could have been tasked with certain military tasks, right? And its previous name was Sparta 3, which was also implicated. It was on sanctions list before. So it had a shady past. Now, when it was passing through, it passed the Gibraltar straight, the straight of Gibraltar.

And then it sank questions kind of multiply, whether it was carrying nuclear parts. How do we know about it? So that's the thing. The first report that alleged this whole story was La Verdad, It's a local Spanish newspaper that allegedly got access to police investigation records, where they cited the captain of the ship, the Russian man. There were 16 Russian men, 14 were saved by Spanish authorities.

Two more died allegedly in the explosion, or just went missing and later declared that. So the Leverdat reported that Spanish investigators concluded, they interrogated this Russian captain, and they concluded, that there was some initial problem with the ship. Ship started tilting, policing, right? And then eventually there were these explosions. And somewhere in the engine room, the Spanish authorities actually boarded the ship, as far as I understand.

They went in and they saw this whole bridge, right? They saw it. And it was not big. It's like 50 on 50 centimeters, right? Half meter. So it's not very big. And basically they said that that was the cause of the damage. Then they saved the people, left.

But then the Russian ships arrived. The Russian warships arrived, actually. And they requested to take over the rescue operation because probably they wanted to salvage the whole thing. It didn't go that well because the ship sank anyway. There were actual footage from nearby vessels that were somewhat like on standby. help assisting with the operation from foreign vessels, showing how the vessel was listing and everything, how there was fire.

So there was, but that's not the whole story, because later what we learned from the most recent CNN report is that there were more explosions, right? That actually the Russian warships may have played a certain role. And when the CNN reported it, they also added one interesting detail. I like how they framed it, but I don't think it's very in line with journalistic practices. They basically said that the ship carried nuclear reactors to North Korea. Well, that's not completely true, and we're going to get to that. And now back to the warships. We also recovered certain documents from the Spanish government that showed that there were indeed,

there was the presence of Russian warships that were there. And we know for a fact that Spanish lawmakers had a discussion about the fact that Russian warships may have caused additional damage to the vessel that was already damaged that actually send the vessel to the bottom of the sea. We don't know whether it's true because they were citing some new information, some information that probably we are not privy to. And this raises a whole bunch of mysterious questions. Why would Russians do that?

Were they trying to get rid of the evidence? If there was something, then what exactly happened? And also we learned about additional explosions a weeks later that came and kind of coincided neatly with the appearance of another Russian research vessel in the air and four more explosions that possibly targeted their remains of the Ursa major, so to sort of maybe destroy the evidence or whatever. And of course, it kind of leads you to think, like, oh, well, what were they trying to cover up there?

maybe there was indeed some sensitive materials, and indeed there could have been. But the fact, the stipulation, the assumption that it was nuclear reactors, and they were destined for North Korea, that's something that we need to scrutinize separately. And now it comes, basically, about the cargo. We know for a fact that the Orsa Major was carrying several super-heavy leaphair cranes, some containers and two square-shaped objects, very heavy-looking probably like 45 to 60 ton, it's somewhere near its stern, right? How do we know that on turn?

We actually have aerial footage and images from the Portuguese Air Force, because they were tailing that vessel and the Russian warships before they entered the strait of Gibraltar. The assumption was that these cover, I would call them a manhole covers or some sort of well covers, they were the exact things that the Russian captain was a referent to in his testimony to the Spanish investigators. Because first he said he was in from from the official documents from Spain. We know that there was an interrogation of the Russian captain who said first that he the ship didn't carry any nuclear or whatever nuclear related parts. But in the second testimony, he actually said that there were two nuclear related things. And he but but it's so unclear they didn't really quote him very well.

So it's really unclear what nuclear component. Nuclear component can be anything. Even a simple pipe can be a nuclear component. It doesn't mean that it's a reactor itself, right? And he said that he wasn't sure whether there was any nuclear fuel in it. So we really don't know whether it wasn't a reactor, nuclear fuel, or what was it? And even if it was a nuclear component, then there is another theory that, what this thing could be, right? For instance, these two manhole covers, they really do match covers for nuclear reactors installed in the Russian icebreaker that is under construction.

It's under construction, so they would be eventually installed there. And so that already raises doubts. Maybe they were carrying it in Vladivostok. And that was the ship's actual destination, at least listed destination, Vladivostok. And near Vladivostov, they're building this icebreaker. So that was one thing. Another thing is, when CNN reported those reactors, they were carrying reactors, reactor, it's a gigantic machine.

You need to see it. And their kind of like implication was that they were implying that it was this particular reactor used in Russian submarines, right? All right, we know this particular model. We know what it looks like. Even though Russia tried to keep it in secret, there's actual footage produced by the Russian Defense Ministry from the actual engine room of a submarine that has that particular reactor. We know what it looked like. It's not what was on the stern of Ursa Major.

It's just not that thing. Doesn't match. Yeah, it doesn't match. It's a big thing. So covers for it, maybe, but we know that that particular submarine doesn't have those covers. Then the question of whether it was, okay, nuclear reactor component destined for North Korea. all right, so we kind of ruled out that reactors is not really a thing because it just doesn't match.

Another thing that, for example, military analysts used elements raised to me was that, well, when you build a submarine, and if it's in the case of North Korea building a submarine, you build a submarine around the nuclear reactor. It's not something that you just later install. It's a whole project, right? It's so components may be possible. Whole reactor, that's not a thing. And again, the Spanish investigators allegedly suspected that this was destined for the port of Rasson in North Korea. All right, there is another set of questions then.

Why Rasson? It's that far up. And the North Korea is not building its nuclear submarine. The newest nuclear submarine in Rasson is building it. It's Shinto way down south by the city. because why not there? Why Rasson even came up? Because probably it's on the news, because we talk about Rasson all the time, because Russia and North Korea ship containers in and out of Rasson all the time, presumably filled with weapons, artillery and stuff. So there is many

incongruences and many blank spaces, right, in this investigation that still needs to be filled. And that's what we are working on, because the Spanish authorities, they have not spoken, they basically refused to speak to us. They didn't explain anything. We only know that there is these discussions and there's these testimonies from Spanish lawmakers who questioned their own government about the situation. We don't know what exactly was on board. And right now, the remains of Ursa Major are 2.5 kilometers down under the sea. And it's very hard to retrieve anything. Even the Spanish authorities, they confirmed in their official. reports in the parliament that they can't recover black boxes or anything because it's very difficult

it's too deep down and yep and that and that's where it leaves us because the mystery still remains unsolved that's what it is it's a story that i think has raised a lot more questions than answered but i think it really highlights why the work that you do is so important because we hear things like a nuclear reactor components and it's so easy to see how that's jumped to suddenly the ship was carrying a nuclear a ractor, which, as you said, from the evidence that you've just described, seems highly unlikely. The ship was bound for Rasson, so this fits into this certain narrative. But actually, when you question those things a little bit further, that doesn't really make sense.

And Anton, one more quick thing I wanted to ask you about this. There was a report about this U.S. Nuke Sniffer aircraft that later appeared near the wreckage of this site. I think we need to circle back to the alleged captain's testimony, because he said that he was not sure whether there was any nuclear fuel. That's what we have and that's what we're working with. That, of course, adds a lot of uncertainty, but I think that is very important. It's key because if that manhole covers or the adjacent, there were also like a little

adjacent kind of some piece of equipment next to it, but not as big. So we don't really know, but what if there was some nuclear fuel? And building on that, several months after that, the US sent its aircraft to check that spot. And that particular aircraft, it tracks traces of nuclear substances, right of fuel. And, well, judging from the fact that it flus in, like, with intervals of several months in between, probably there was no any leakage. CNN said that US Air Force, actually, didn't respond to their request. So we don't know what the purpose was, and of course the U.S. military probably won't comment their secret flights.

But the assumption would be that they were trying to see whether there was any post-accident leakage. But right now, probably what Spain should do is actually try and retrieve at least something. I don't know, send an underwater drone, see what's there, and report the findings and be actually open about it. The part, especially about the Russian involvement in the sinking of the vessel is of particular importance. I note for the fact that the Spanish lawmakers raised this question at the parliament at the parliamentary hearing. And this question was never addressed again since like January because it's nowhere to be found in official transcripts of their meetings. So if this question was addressed and if it was answered, I want to see how the defense ministerial representative actually. address this particular issue because it would shed a lot of light on the operation.

Yeah, still so many more questions to be answered. Now, I do want to ask you one more question. I know I've kept you way too long, but before I let you go, obviously this is a story that has potentially major implications, but as we've caveated many times, there's still a lot of uncertainty. When you're reporting something like this, how do you approach that process and try not to overstate what the evidence shows? Well, our goal at NK News, and you know it very well, is to work with primary materials, right? So primary sources. For our listeners who don't know are basically golden rule here is that we don't report a story unless we do have a primary source.

Right. So whenever we see Leverdat or CNN reporting something, especially when CNN has literally nuclear reactors in the headline, but in the story, it's actually about nuclear reactor parts. Well, we should probably follow some sort of rules. and do not just parrot whatever other outlet is saying. So that's why we want to verify everything, right? This process, we had these documents. We had official documents from the Spanish government found

with more documents than even CNN presented to their audience. We also reach out to officials. We reach out to ministries. We reach out to everyone possible. Well, I even bombarded with messages the chief of the Spanish Coast Guard. Nobody replied, which only speaks. speaks volumes to how sensitive this subject is. And that's our process, right?

So first of all, rely on what you know, actually, what you know and what you know from official sources. Building on that, of course, we can build certain theories, but I don't want my reporting to be one-sided. That is why we often rely on experts who have sometimes very conflicting views of different situations. And I think the expert input always counterbalances whatever bias there could be. And when you present it in a balanced way, first of all, you safeguard your reporting from further scrutiny and questioning.

The second of all, whenever from the perspective of a reader, you read this thing and you know that I'm not leading you to a certain conclusion, right? You make your conclusion. But here's the facts, and that's what we know so far. The story hasn't ended. That's the thing. And this story, I'm sure we are going to hear something about it in the coming months again. It must come up. Because, well, even though the Orsa Major is still on the seabed, the other ships involved, the captains, the crew, the North Korean nuclear submarine is still out there.

So we are definitely going to hear about these things all over again. Of course, we'll be following along to see how it does develop. Anton, thank you so much for joining me today and listeners, I will link all the stories that we have discussed in our show notes so that you can read them for yourself, especially that first a major story. That was my story of the week.

Thank you, Anton, for joining me today. Thank you. And that brings us to the end of today's episode. Our thanks to Brian Betts and David Choi for helping make this podcast happen. For more reporting, analysis and expert insight on North Korea, visit NK News for the latest stories

and NKPro for deeper analysis, data and research tools. You can also watch this episode on YouTube and be sure to follow us on social media for the latest updates, clips and behind the scenes content. I'm Alana Hill. Thank you for listening and we'll be back next time with more on the stories shaping North Korea.