North Korea News Podcast by NK News - Roman Husarski: How North Koreans practice religion in the atheistic state

Episode Date: October 24, 2024

North Korea is infamously intolerant of religion, harshly cracking down on faith as a potential threat to the regime. But that doesn’t mean the officially atheistic state is completely free of believers. Religious studies scholar Roman Husarski joins the podcast to talk about the different religions that are active in North Korea, how believers practice […]

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That's shop.nknews.org. Hello, podcast listeners and welcome to the NK News podcast. Today, this episode is recorded on Friday, the 13th of September, 2024, Friday the 13th, a lucky day, of course, and I'm doing this one in the studio and joining me here in the NK News studio today is Dr. Roman Hussarski, who's an assistant lecturer at the Institute of the Middle and Far East at Jagiellonian University in Poland. I hope I pronounced that right. He holds a PhD from the Institute of Religious Studies from the same university.

His work focuses on both South and North Korean religions and he's currently conducting a research grant on the evolution of the myth of Kim Il-sung in North Korean cinema. In the book, Pursuing Sustainable Urban Development in North Korea, published by Rutledge, he has a chapter called North Korean God's with s in

brackets parentheses the role of religion in the urban sustainability of Pyongyang and In the Bloomsbury handbook of North Korean cinema coming out later this year Here's a chapter called religion on the North Korean screen different approaches to Christianity and Buddhism in the check Shin family And we met at Pyongyang at we met at Mount Myohyang. We're going to talk a lot about religion in North Korea. Welcome on the show, Roman. Thank you.

Can you give us a brief sketch of what religions are active in North Korea, how many believers they have, and how religious, quote-unquote, those believers are? Okay, so this is also a difficult question actually. Yeah, but I can just say that North Korean state recognizes five religions. So basically we have five state-based religious organizations which are responsible for the activities of those respected religions. So we have the Korean Buddhist Federation, the Korean Christian Federation, the Korean Catholic Association, but we should remember that this is not respected by a Catholic Church.

It's independent of it. And we have the Korean Jeon Dogyo Central Committee, which is different from Jeon Dogyo Dang, which is a party. Okay, so they have a political party. They have a political party. And they have a religious federation. Yeah, religious organization. And finally, the newest is the Korean Orthodox Committee, which is organizing Korean Orthodox Christians, not Orthodox Jews, for example. Although on the side notes, I can say that I saw a block of

ultra-Orthodox Jew who visited North Korea and find some interesting comparisons between North Korean ideology and his own faith. Oh, you've got to share that with me. That's very interesting. Okay. Fascinating. How many believers do they have and how religious are those believers? Yeah, so about the numbers, it's very tricky, actually. It's really hard to say because on the one hand, we have some governmental statistics. So the first ones were obtained by Tae-won Sin-nim, a Buddhist monk from South Korea who in 1988 visited North Korea after North-Politic allowed South Koreans to visit North Korea. And he learned that the Buddhist site allegedly has 10,000 followers, 300 monks and around 60 temples.

Okay. The problem is that currently still if you go to North Korea, you ask a North Korean monk how many believers there are, he will also answer 10,000. So since 1988 until now there's been no change in official numbers? In official numbers and the same numbers is being given for Christians. 10,000 Christians. Yeah, 10,000 Christians and Tondogio believers. So it's very symbolic rather than precise number.

What about numbers of Catholics and Orthodox Christians? Yeah, this is something I cannot give the correct number. And there is another important information that the Korean Orthodox Committee has only North Korean priests, but probably doesn't have any North Korean believers. So this particular unit was created by the order of Kim Jong-il to create an Orthodox community in North Korea,

but it's for foreigners mostly. Right, mainly what, Russian diplomats? Not only Russian, but also other Eastern European and other diplomats from Orthodox countries. So even there are some Polish Orthodox so who visited this church. So yeah, but currently we can also say that it is mostly being retaken by a Russian state. We can talk about it later.

Finally, you've asked about the sincerity. Yeah. This is very a very hard question and actually not only in relation to the North Koreans, but generally in religious studies, when we talk about the sincerity or really what people believe, it's very hard to claim and make those statistics because the answers usually changes with questions, with the context. So people would, for example, give other answers when there will be a priest beside and other when they will be free in their home or with the researcher for a coffee. There are some ideas in religious studies that maybe people, when they say that they believe in God, they want to signalize something, for example, that they are moral, right? Or that can be faithful in spousing. So there are the different

pausing. So there are different factors in play and it's rather better to see what people do, what their acts are, rather than asking them and believing that what they say is true. Can we say anything that, I mean, do we know anything about what North Korean believers of different religions do? Well, yeah, because they have some activities and we can discuss this also in detail regarding different organizations. But what I can also say that when the state tries to control completely the religious life in the country, there's also quite probably a lot which goes under radar of the state, especially in relation to belief in spirits. Of the old religions.

Yeah, shamanism and seeking the answers for the future. All of those type of animistic beliefs are probably widespread. Right. And I've got some questions about that later on. Now, in one of your texts, in your book chap on the role of religion in the urban sustainability of Pyongyang, you use the definition of religion as a system of shared activity organized around signifiers of transcendence. Now, that may sound a little academic, but signifiers of transcendence are something beyond the normal every day, right? Sort of beyond human, heavenly, perhaps we could think of it as that way. So, Juche, the main stated philosophy of North Korea, has an eternal president,

Kim Il-sung, an eternal chairman, Kim Jong-il, and towers of eternal life, the Yongsan Tap in almost every town and village. And there is a concept of a socio-political body that has quote, eternal life. And ordinary citizens of North Korea are said to be able to live beyond physical death through their loyalty and devotion to the leadership family. So given all that, would you call Juche an ideology

or is it a religion? Are there enough signifiersuche an ideology or is it a religion? Are there enough signifiers of transcendence to call it a religion? It's a super interesting question, the one I've been thinking for a long time actually. So if you would ask me 10 years ago, I would be definitely willing to call North Korean ideology a religion. But currently I'm much more careful about giving this category to the North Korean ideology. And maybe I will briefly say why is that? There are some something to concern when we are judging like that. And it can be quite problematic actually, because first of all, the references to some, let's say, supernatural ideas or the language which

we usually find in religions, I don't know, like Nakwon is a heaven. Oh, Jisang Nakwon. This is the phrase North Korean writers used quite a lot, or Jukjipop, the ability to teleport. It all comes from, let's say, religion worldviews. This is only a part of what the ideology encompasses. It's such a huge material that in fact if we study North Korean texts, literature, movies, this is only a very small part of symbolism. So in that regard we need to remember to kind of not pick and choose and say that this is the whole. This is one thing.

And also there might be an argument to be made about when North Korea actually tried to infuse more this type of propaganda in during what time and why was it? For example, then the 90s are a prevalent moment for this type of language being very prevalent in North Korea. But later it kind of disappears. So it's interesting. And second, those references are not unique for the North Korean ideology. Actually, they are quite prevalent in most political ideologies.

If you study deeply, of course you will see this type of supernatural language in communism and in Japanese empire, obviously in the cult of personality of the emperor. In communism too, really? Well, you can do those claims and those claims were made. You have martyrs in Soviet Union, their biographies were shaped on martyrdom of the Christian Orthodox saints, for example. You have the language which is coming sometimes strictly from the Christian Orthodox faith, which was imposed on communism. You have idea of utopia, of building this paradise on earth.

You have the deterministic thinking that something leads to somewhere, that we will achieve something and it is inevitable because we have those rules which will provide us the answers. So what about eternal life? Yeah, exactly. Eternal life is understood in a special way in communism and in North Korea too. So in North Korean context, eternality is given to the party, to the leader, and to martyrs who did something amazing for a nation because nation is also,

the Minjok is also eternal in this discourse. So this language of eternality is definitely not a scientific language. It's coming from the imagination of what is possible, that there is something beyond death, and all of those fear beyond death, like reincarnation, heaven, eternality, this is all, I would say, religious sphere. So whether we will find it in communism. And in communism, actually, you had some thinkers who really believed that some immortality would be achieved

during this life. Possibly even Stalin believed that the communistic science would be able to achieve something like that. Immortality of the body. Yeah, immortality of the body. But I don't want to go too deep into that, but we are very easy to point some religious or mysterious, strange propaganda in North Korea. But we don't see that even in our democratic systems. We have quite a lot of that still. Even in, let's compare it with US politics, right? So how often American presidents refers to God, for example.

And we have statistics. It's quite prevalent, but we think it's normal. Just because we think it's normal, right? Yeah, of course, there are people who will probably, for example, post, I don't know, Donald Trump and behind him, a hand of Jesus. But this is like fragmented because the society is so diverse and different people participate in different ways. But in North Korea, yeah, we think of it as a totalitarian state, but actually it has also some different agents, different authors.

And I can also point to some like Peking Jun, who was more willing to talk about religion in his scenarios than other writers. So yeah, you have different approaches. And within those constrained rules of the ideology, some people are more willing to go this path, right, to be less, let's say, dogmatic Marxist or Juche, Juchologist. So in talking about it as a whole then, you're much more careful now to, about describing Juche as a religion. Yeah, it's just also what the religious studies scholar Russell T. McCutcheon called manufacturing religion.

So basically there is this problem in religious studies that the definition of religion is kind of a vogue and very, very, very broad. So it's very easy. Vague and broad. Vague and broad and it's very easy to use any definition of religion and find something. So whether we would use a Taylorian definition of religion as something which deals with the spirits, yeah, we can find some spirit-like description of the Kimmel song. So always we can like use the Geertz's definition of religion as a system of symbols. Yeah, we of course, we have find some powerful symbols in North

Korean ideology, but we can also find in other places of the sphere of politics. And other scholar of religion, Bruce Lincoln, have been arguing for some time that religion is just a form of ideology. It just has more supernatural elements than other, but the question is in the quantity. It's also can be that just the religion is such a Western concept that it doesn't exactly apply for the Eastern and non-European places, although it now was adopted. So for example, North Korea has its own definition of religion and also allowed some religions to be, other not. So yeah, it's like discourses are fighting over each other.

And in South Korea, we can see very clearly some people say this is religion, but this is Saibii. This is not a religion. This is a fake religion. But in fact, this is like a small religion, which was just rejected by the society or is not acknowledged by the society, which makes all discussion way, way, way more hard to be made. My proposition, okay, my proposition is actually not to focus on whether North Korea is a religion or not, whether Juche is a religion or not. It's more of a proposing of studying a particular, you know, very concrete things like huge parades or those habits which people do in front of portraits, of the leaders, like specific behaviors.

We should rather study specific behaviors than trying to, you know, put something into this very, very wide definition, because it also doesn't give us really concrete answers to. So I don't know what exactly we want to achieve. And it's very ideological in a way. The question itself, yeah. You can use it both ways. So you can use it in a way Christopher Hitchens did. So yeah, North Korean is a religion.

So religion is bad, basically. But South Korean scholars are doing sometimes something opposite. North Korean is just like a religion. We also have religion. It's a similar thing. We shouldn't call it absurd. We also have religions in our society. So maybe Juche is just one of other world religions.

But if we want to accept Juche as a religion, as a world religion, then should we also accept, I don't know, Nazi ideology as a religion? Full of, you know, occult thinking. Okay. Yeah, so you hear what I'm trying to say. Yeah. Now, what's the current attitude of the North Korean state towards religions in general? I mean, I know it's changed a bit since its founding. So what's the attitude of the state today? Yeah, it's been changing. It's been changing and there are a few moments when it actually underwent change. But the current is pretty... they're trying to be neutral, which is very puzzling

probably for many people because still we suppose that North Korea is very anti-religious, but they are trying actually to use those religious organizations for different reasons. Because they found that it is better to actually have some state-based religions rather than trying just to persecute them and to destroy them. So for example, for Koreans living abroad, those religion specialists can be used when, for example, Korean Christians will come to North Korea and ask, we want to go to church. So they can meet, those rituals can be given to them. And this can also form a bond. It also can be important for, you important for Koreans living in Japan, in China, who are religious but

still are afraid to go maybe to North Korea. So it gives this image that, yes, we have religions, we accept them. But in reality, it's also very, very limited. So anything that those religious specialists want to do, they have to have acceptance of the party. And it's quite a long process actually to obtain permission for some activities. You mentioned that there are five officially recognized religions and each of them has a federation or an association or an organization which is a state-run or at least state-controlled organization.

So to what extent does the freedom to practice a religion separate from the state exist in North Korea? So anything unregistered, anything... Like a house church or something? Unrecognized would be prohibited and persecuted. But that doesn't mean that, for example, underground church doesn't exist. There was quite a recent publication by Kim Pyong-no, professor of Seoul National University. He did interviews with members of Christian families who defected to South Korea, who

actually quite vividly described how the life of underground church works and how state tried to bring those Christians to the official church. There were those attempts and some people actually tried to be involved in the practices of the official church. It might be surprising because official church. It might be surprising because most of us, most of the listeners probably think that this is just a facade. This is not real. This is just a role at play. But Kim Pyong-no actually quite well argued that it's also more complicated that real Christians were involved because just before the division, Christianity was so strong there. Sure, particularly North Korea. Yeah. And still some people remember, still some people want to practice, but their knowledge of what

Christianity is, is very shallow by now, because they don't have the access for the sources, even the Bible. So having a prayer in home, it's something else than studying Bible and preaching. So the Christianity probably has quite interesting context in North Korea. The same goes with Buddhism. There is some knowledge of it. It's way more accepted than Christianity in North Korea. Way more activities by Chobulion, which is the North Korean Buddhist Federation, are accepted and held. But still, the knowledge of the people, even the knowledge of monks about the Buddhism, it's very, very small, actually.

It goes with very basic things and also adapted to the necessity of the North Korean ideology. Okay, so let's talk a bit more about Buddhism in North Korea. So you've written that from the 1950s until the 1980s, Pyongyang was a unique city with barely any religious sites. Are there currently Buddhist temples or hermitages or other sites in Pyongyang itself? Yeah, in Pyongyang there are five, as far as I know. There are five.

Some people claim that there are seven Buddhist temples, but those other two are not temples. They're just some leftovers of ruins. Something archaeological. Some archaeological sites or hermitage sites. In fact, the temples with real monks can be only free. I think Gwangbopsa, Cheongmingsa and Yeo... I think those two, Gwangbopsa and Cheongmingsa. Okay, so it's really just two with monks in Gwangyang.

Now in April this year, NK News published an article by you about Buddhism in North Korea. I encourage people to go and read that. Now in April this year, NK News published an article by you about Buddhism in North Korea. I encourage people to go and read that. It's called Bodhisattva of Unification, How One Monk Tried to Bridge Careers Through Buddhism. So tell us a little bit briefly about the Venerable Popda who traveled to North Korea hundreds of times to work with local monks. Why did he do that and what did he achieve?

Yeah. Popda's in himim is quite fascinating person. He actually devoted his life for the cooperation with North Korean Buddhists. He also was one of the pioneers in those exchanges. So yeah, what did he achieve? Yeah, he was involved in so many activities. First, he was trying to bring food to North Korea. He built a noodle factory near the Songgul temple in Sarawak, so also historical site, and invited Buddhists, actually Buddhists, the descendants and Buddhists from the Songgul temple

to work in this factory. Whether is it true, I'm not sure, but the many people were involved. And later after doing this humanitarian work, he started actually delivering Buddhism to North Korea. So they reconstructed two temples, Shingye in Kumgang, Lantung and Yongtong in Kaesong. So this is one thing,

because most of the Buddhist temples were completely destroyed during the Korean War. Because this is because the temples were sites where soldiers would like to stay there. So they were bombarded by UN forces. And it's really, I think it's true to say that this exchange and this involvement changed North Korean Buddhists. So they delivered them the robes. So the robes you see now, the red and black are gifts from South Korea. They taught them how to pray original sutras, so Yom Bul, the way South Korean does. Now North Korean, they can do that too.

And they do actually. So also Buddhist names, and also they convinced some monks to actually live in the temple. Because at that time, most of them did not. They were married, they lived in a house outside the temple. They are still married. They are like Tego order here in South Korea. So because in South Korea also we had this split. Yep.

And after the colonial period, the ascetic monks won the fight because they got support from the state. But the biggest community was built by the monks who actually married. So in North Korea, this is not surprising at all because those people who created North Korean Buddhist Federation were disciples of Han Yong-un, very famous Buddhist reformer who actually argued that monks have to marry, they have to eat meat, they have to live like secular people to reach, you know, secular people, to not be outside in the mountains like aesthetic monks, but to be with the real people. Yeah. So he also found that North Korean monks are not like South Korean monks because they adopted

to socialism and they are more like a Sapan, not Ipan. Ipan is a monk who is doing meditation, who's studying deeply Buddhist texts, but Sapan monks are those who govern the temple, who are also doing some other activities, like bringing some Buddha teaching to the people, but mostly the government governs the temples. Did he come to the conclusion that Buddhist monks in North Korea are actually Buddhist monks? They're not cosplayers who are there for visitors? Yeah, basically that that what he said, like, even a lot of what they say is fake. Even 99% of them are fake.

1% is true. So basically he, he said it just because the conditions are so harsh and the people lost that knowledge about Buddhism. Uh, but it doesn't mean that they don't care about Buddhism and it doesn't mean that, uh, they are just playing. It's completely fake. They value highly Buddhism, but their devotion is a little bit different. And some of things, of course, they are doing to make their South Korean guests happy.

But many of those monks are actually related to either Buddhist families or some of them like Popta claimed in his book that he really met some monks who started being monks during still a colonial period. Probably those monks already passed away. Now, how do Buddhism and Juche sit together in North Korea? How do Buddhist monks make sense of it in their heads? Yeah, I think they just accept the Juche as their main ideology. So in the late 80s, the North Korean literature or films would argue that, well, if you prioritize Minjok, if you prioritize the Juche, you still can have something Buddhist or Christian in you, but you have to make your priorities well. So basically it's something like that.

So Buddhism is in a sense subservient to Juche. Juche is on top and then Buddhism is second. Exactly. So if they will deliver a sermon, maybe the Buddhism would be one percent, 90 percent would be a Juche. Now when did Bopda last visit North Korea? Yeah, last visit was in I think 2011 in Kaesong actually. It's quite a while ago. Yeah, quite a while and the other monks, his disciples, went to North Korea later for the celebration of 70th anniversary of Han Yong-woon, for example, the monk I mentioned, or for other activities. 2015 was a huge gathering in North Korea. Around 100 monks. Popda didn't go.

So, South, no, Popda didn't go. Is he still alive? Popda, yes. He's didn't go. So south, no, Popta didn't go. Is he still alive? Popta, yes. He's a hermit in Hesa. Near in Hesa there is a hermitage. I visited him there, he doesn't move from there. So how does he feel about unification through Buddhism now? He still believes that Buddhism can play a part

in the future because they established this base of the context. And if the situation will change, of course, those channels can be used again. Okay. So, but yeah, obviously, now it doesn't look well and he acknowledged that. How old is he? He's disappointed. Yeah. How old is he?

I think he's 80 now. Okay. Probably not in his lifetime, I'm guessing. Yeah. Now let's talk about Christianity. We know that in Pyongyang there are two Protestant churches, the Bongsu and the Chilgol churches, and there is also the Jangchung Catholic Cathedral.

They've been there for a while, I think since the late 80s, early 90s, but there's now also a Russian Orthodox Church, and NK News will soon publish an article by you. In fact, it will probably be published by the time this podcast comes out about the unknown history of the North Korean Orthodox Church. Not everyone knows even that this church exists. Its full name is the Church of the Life-Giving Trinity, which was dedicated in 2006, almost 20 years ago. So how is it that South Korean Christians helped to build this North Korean Orthodox Church?

That's an interesting history. Korean Christians helped to build this North Korean Orthodox Church. That's an interesting history. I recently conducted an interview with the head of this Metropolis of Korea, which is a small Orthodox Church here in South Korea. And who's the head of that? Metropolitan Ambrosios. He's a Greek. I think I might have met him once.

The headquarter is in Aeoge, St. Nicholas Church. So he said that actually in 2002 when Kim Jong-il decided to build a church. That was after his visit to the Far East, right? Yeah, Irkutsk, when he visited a church. Where he was probably born in Khabarovsk, I think, right? Yeah, exactly, exactly. So the committee was established and this committee wrote to... This is the North Korean Committee of Orthodox Believers.

Yes, North Korean Committee of Orthodox Believers. This committee actually sent a letter. I saw those letters, actually. So they asked for the help. To South Korean Orthodox Christians. So they responded and they made free trips and they delivered quite a lot of equipment for building the church and they also assisted some of the construction.

During Sunshine Policy period it was possible. It was possible and what is important is that Metropolitan Ambrosius claims that during this period, South Korean church was much more involved than the Russian Orthodox Church. Russian Orthodox Church now claims authority over this church. But... Ecclesial authorities? Yes, ecclesial authorities. Does the Patriarchate in Moscow say, we are... Yeah, but not only that, actually, because of the Ukraine War and the split within Orthodox

world. Actually, now Russian Orthodox Church also claim whole Korea. So just to explain for the listeners very briefly, within Orthodox world, there are strict dogmatic rules how bishops should behave, where is their territory, where it ends. So basically, one bishop doesn't enter the territory of the other bishop and it's his missionary activities to not break this union. But it's no longer the case. So from 2019, Korean metropolis is no longer one body of Orthodox Christianity. In South Korea. There's also the mission of Russian Orthodox Church. Working separately and maybe even in competition with the already existing metropolis here in South Korea.

Yes, exactly, exactly. It's quite a sad story. The head of this church on the Russian side was the one who visited President Putin. Kirill? Not Kirill, but he's a Teofanos. He's a Russian Korean who is in control of both a church in Pyongyang and a little Russian church here in Seoul, which is, yeah, yeah, it's not a real church, but it's just in the building. Okay, now we've already dealt with the question of sincerity of believers, but I think you said at the start of this interview that actually the Orthodox Church in Moscow, in Pyongyang,

has North Korean priests but no North Korean believers. Are there really no North Korean believers who attend that church at all? Are they all just foreigners who go there? Yeah, as far as I know, yes, this is the case. Only North Korean priests are there. Right. And where are these North Korean priests trained and how do they get selected? Yeah, yeah. There is no, you know, there are no, as far as I know, traditional, you know, community of North Korean Orthodox believers. Where do they come from? Are they chosen by their in-min band or their school? Or how does it work?

Yeah, that's an interesting question. I think just like the other religious specialists, they are selected from the students of a religious department in Kim Il-sung University. So basically this type of profession is quite beneficial because they can travel, they can meet foreign people, they can obtain foreign currency. It will make your life better. So it's a good opportunity. Here on earth.

Here on earth, yes. Right. Now Russia's president Vladimir Putin visited that church earlier this year. This is the church of the life-giving trinity and he gave an icon, which is an important gift in the Orthodox community. So is this church now an agent of Russian influence within North Korea? Yeah, precisely. I think so. Yeah, this church is now a symbol of Russian-North Korean friendship. The Russian ambassador, Andrei Karlov, who was a regular participant in the Holy Liturgy in the church, also got married in this Pyongyang church. It's quite important for Russians living in North Korea. Also for Vladimir Putin, the relation with the Orthodox Church is now so important.

He presents himself as a sincere believer, as a protection of the real conservative values and the true religion. It became very important in his late presidency. So interestingly, this church also now plays a part. But Kim Jong-un didn't enter the church. He's never been. So he was planned to go there with Putin, as I heard. But he he waited for the Putin outside. Outside. Yeah. Now, is there any any friction between the official Korean Orthodox committee and the Russian Orthodox Church? Or are they just, you know, happy hand in hand working together now?

Yeah, it's it's something I don't have a precise knowledge. I think the Korean Orthodox Committee do ask a party ask them to do. Definitely there was something, at least according to the Metropolitan Ambrosius, I will go in detail in this article you will read on the NKNews. There was something like that. It was not sure what side that the church will choose, but finally, in 2006, Bishop Kirill, now the patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church, consecrated the church. And from then, from 2006, it's just in complete Russian control. Oh, since it's consecration for a very long time.

Do South Korean Christians still have any contact and communication with that church that they helped to build? Yeah, so actually their 2006 visit to Pyongyang was a kind of a failure. They wanted to attain the holy liturgy, but the taxi driver drove them around the city and they didn't made it for the liturgy. So they were too late. They were too late and they realized that it was because of the Russian diplomats' intervention.

They already were fighting over the church quite a long time ago. They nicely invited North Korean priests to South Korea, but this never finalizes. So basically there's no contact anymore as far as... There's no contact at all. Now briefly, before we go on to other religions, what can you say about the other Christian churches in Pyongyang, the Catholic and the Protestant? Are they active? Are they growing? Are they supported by what, American, Korean Christians?

What do you know about them? They are, as far as I know, and I'm not sure, I'm not certain enough to answer fully this question, but they are not active. Maybe when the tourists will visit, but independent of the tourist activities, those churches, I think, are not active at all. And there is a reason for that. Taehyung Ho, in his memoir, he said that when the church started the activities, the government let them do those liturgies to observe what will happen and realize that new people are starting to attain the meetings,

and more people are coming. They got scared and they decided, no, this is too risky for us, we will not allow this. And despite people knew that the church is under supervision, it's observed, they still would come. And yeah, so yeah, at first it was completely independent, but then they found out that even the people who would go to the church didn't know about Christianity at all. Usually they were like you said, selected by Inminbam. They still would find it interesting. Because it's something different I suppose.

It has an exotic thing I suppose. Exactly, yeah. Alright, so let's talk briefly about other religions. What's the current status of the Korean native religion, Chondogyeo in North Korea? It's almost disappeared from public life in South Korea. Is it still active as ao in North Korea, it's almost disappeared from public life in South Korea. Is it still active as a religion in North Korea?

If it's active as a religion, it's not like the South Korean counterpart. It definitely adopted to the North Korean worldview very well because it also has a party. So most of the metaphysical assumptions within Cheondogyeo were throw away from it. So it's more like a socialist worldview with the stress on the Minjok nationalism. But they do have ritual because we know it,

because Cheondogyeo members from South Korea during the Sunshine Policy visited North Korea. They have some praying rooms, ritual rooms, let's call them. So they have some basic ritual, but I don't have details about it. So that's all I can say. Not very powerful movement in North Korea as it was. It was really, really huge at the beginning of North Korea. Still in the formation years, during the Soviet occupation, they actually formed the biggest party.

Oh, did they? Yeah. Wow, okay, that's interesting. Now what about Islam? 16% of the population was Chondogil. Ah, in terms of religion. In 1945. Wow, I didn't know it was that big.

We know it from North Korean statistics. It might even have been higher. Now what about Islam? Is there an Islamic worship center in North Korea? It's not that it is something that the state is operating. Just the state accepted that the Iranian Embassy has mosque and other foreigners are attending the services there. It's interesting case because it might be one of the few examples in the world when there is a Shia mosque and there's no Sunni mosque. The other country I know is Armenia but it's very rare, very rare. And yeah

interestingly the Muslims from other countries, Malaysia, Indonesia, also African countries, who are mostly not Shia. Yeah, Sunni Muslims are participating in this environment. They are united. Are there any North Korean practitioners of Islam, as far as you know? I think at least from the pictures they posted, I don't think so. Is there a widespread belief in the supernatural in North Korea? Yeah, I would say definitely it is prevalent there, but I don't have statistical data for

that. It's just the cognitive science points that basically humans have this capacity of believing in spirit, and there are evolutionary reasons for that. So definitely, yeah, we know that people do report ghost stories. The factors tell about different ghost related stories. The shamans are operating there. So yeah, it's kind of inevitable that whenever there is a human community, there still will be a belief in ghosts. What do you know about the practices of shamanism and fortune telling in North Korea? It's not like shamans here with the full colorful dresses, but it's more related to the fortune telling.

Not so much ritual, but more fortune telling, is it? Yeah. I remember one report when the defector said that in the day we were going with the anti-superstition movement, but during the night we still would contact shaman because someone died or there was some problem in family, so we still needed them. To drive out evil spirits? Do they do that too in North Korea? Probably yes.

I don't remember the particular report about that. But I would say to some extent, yeah, I am not sure. What about Saju? That pop is enjoying a resurgence in popularity, I think, here in South Korea. Is that a popular method of finding or evaluating a spouse in North Korea as it seems to be here in South Korea? Yeah, it is.

It is. It exists. But to the extent, I don't know. And there are other methods, other fortune telling methods they use. There was some time ago, there was an interview with even with the shaman, with a shaman defector. Oh, shaman defector. Yeah. So, so definitely people are interested and when the country fails them, when

tragedy happens and they don't have the reason, some will still seek help of the shaman. Yeah. Okay. And now on more broadly talking about things that are supernatural, earlier you mentioned chukchi-pop, the North Korean word for teleportation, the ability to travel large distance in a small movement. Now, according to myth, Kim Il-sung was able to teleport to win a battle against the Imperial Japanese soldiers during the colonial period when Kim was leading a band of partisans.

But from time to time, North Korean state media reminds people that teleportation is not in fact possible. And at these times, it likes to cite an old anecdote by Kim Il-sung himself, in which he said that Chukchi-bob is not real. And yet, ever since the epic poem Baekdusan, written by Jo Gi-chun, was published in February 1947, in which he said that Kim Il-sung was able to travel the lengths and breadth of the country using chukchi-bap, stories about chukchi-bap are taught as literal events, for example, in North Korean comic books, in a popular song recently, and also in school textbooks.

Plus, this skill is not only ascribed to Kim Il-sung himself, but also to other partisan soldiers under his command. The Japanese are closing in, closing in, and then suddenly the North Koreans are gone. They're elsewhere, the Korean partisans. So never is there any note or hint in these that this teleportation skill is fictional or not to be taken literally. What have you seen about chukchi pop or teleportation in North Korean texts? That's fascinating subject. Actually, you are right that North Korean newspapers like

Nodong Shinmun would say that, but remember, Jukjipop is not real, but it's interesting why they have to emphasize it so much. They play both sides, I think, don't they? Yeah, exactly. It's a dual track, I think, because when you read the defectors testimonies, it's so common that they mention this Jukjipop and they don't emphasize that this is this is just a metaphor metaphor or just a symbol and there are other of course very powerful

supernatural stories about Kim Il Sung. Yeah you can find them in definitely in Czonsolczyk which is the collection of legends. There is the whole genre. And as far as I know, this was never made in any other. There was no legends of President Beirut flying or turning pine cones to grenades. But yeah, North Korea has this distinctive genre. But when you read it, actually, in the introduction, the author would say that this is the collection of legends people would say because they were uneducated. They didn't

know the truth of our ideology yet, but they made so many legends. So that means that our leader is really a legendary hero, the most legendary hero in the world. So that was the logic of the party, I think, but the memory is tricky, you know, when you hear a lot of, you know, boring partisan stories and then you hear something like that, it will stick. It's proven also by cognitive science that those also by cognitive science that those counter schematic stories are more memorable than others. So it's not surprising now for me that defectors will say it. They don't remember that this was disproved. There was one actually episode in Uri Mannaro Kamnida when they discussed that. In the end, the show manager said,

but guys, remember that the party actually disproved that. And all of the people were actually quite shocked. Oh, they'd forgotten it. Yeah, they didn't realize that it was disproven, at least from the reaction. Maybe some people can say, like, oh, they are just making this to, I don't know, to make their stories more shocking for the South Koreans. But I don't think so.

When I was studying in Uedde, I also met North Korean defector and she told me over dinner that when I was growing up, we also read in the textbooks, primary school, inminhakkyo. Is it something like Father Christmas or the Easter Bunny in the West that children are encouraged to believe it but adults stop believing in it at a certain point? Right, but they don't usually often discuss this. Even raising the subject of Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong-un,

is very taboo. So it's not like a Santa Claus. Right. When... That's true. There's a fascinating study by Toh Hyeon-sung, who collected different defectors' interviews. And he realized that at least until the high school, people usually believe quite literally what they learn from the leaders,

but then they start to question it. Some of them question it to the extent that they leave. There's a rationalization process going on, so they would maybe rationalize somehow that, yeah, this is just a symbol. But it's just how the propaganda works. Because you have so many supernatural signifiers, it gives this super strong impression that you are really dealing, even this is like not literally true, you are dealing with something completely different from your worldly experience, that there is some superpower behind those leaders. Yeah, this is, I think, why also North Korean ideology

is so successful in staying in power because it hits on so many levels. Right, wow, and that's a good point. It's also a fascinating place to stop our interview today. We've run out of time, I'm afraid, but thank you once again, Roman Huszowski, for coming on the NK News podcast and telling us about religion in North Korea.

Thank you once again, Roman Hususky, for coming on the NK News podcast and telling us about religion in North Korea. Thank you. Welcome to a new realm of insights into the Korean Peninsula. At Korea Risk Group, we delve deep into the complexities of North and South Korea, offering bespoke analyses that empower decision makers. Whether you're in government, business or academia, our tailored solutions provide clarity in an opaque region. Let our team guide your strategy with data-driven insights

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