North Korea News Podcast by NK News - Sayaka Chatani: How pro-North Korea communities took root in Japan

Episode Date: April 21, 2026

NK News Correspondent Jooheon Kim kicks off the podcast this week by discussing North Korea-Japan relations, focusing on lingering tensions over the abductions issue, recent trilateral naval cooperation with Seoul and Washington, and Pyongyang’s criticism of Japan’s latest diplomatic Blue Book. In the second half, the scholar Sayaka Chatani joins the podcast to explore the […]

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That's shop.nknews.org. Hello listeners and welcome to the NK News podcast. I'm your host, Jacko Swetzer, and today it is Tuesday, the 21st of April, 26, and I've joined here in the podcast studio by Kim Johan. Jujan, welcome back on the show. Thanks for having me. It's been a while since we've had you on here. Yeah, it's been almost two months.

And since my long interview on this episode will be all about North Korea and Japan, specifically the pro-North Korea's living in Japan, I thought we'd do a few stories related to North Korea-Japan. relations. So let's start with an interview that you did recently on the sidelines of the Asan summit, the Asan Plinem, with the former Japanese Vice Foreign Minister Mitoji Yavonaka. You talked to him quite a bit about Japan-North Korea relations. And one of the issues that always gets brought up from the Japanese side is the issue of abduction. So tell us a little bit about that in summary. Yeah. So I got to meet the vice foreign minister

earlier this month at the event. And yeah, we talked a lot about abduction issues and nuclear issues as well. But the key point was Japan should address North Korea's abductions of Japanese citizens together with the issue of Pyongyang's nuclear weapons. And he actually visited Pyongyang in 2004 with the former prime minister, Goizumi. But to get the remains of one of the abductees, she was abducted in 1977. Yeah, the young school girl, Magumie. your court was abducted on her way home from school one day from a seaside town in Japan and never

seen again by her parents. Her mother's still alive and the former vice foreign minister who you interviewed Naka has for a long time had contact with the family and made it his personal mission to try to go to North Korea and to find out what happened to her, receive her remains, etc. Yeah, but he did get the remains, but it turns out it was not her remains. So I guess he was very frustrated. I remember when that happened in the early 2000s, and the anger was so great in Japan that it basically put a stop to any diplomatic discussions between the leadership of North Korea and Japan for many years.

Right. Yeah, and I've heard like five abductees were sent back after that, But alive. Yeah. But there's Japan still believes there's 12 more abductees left in North Korea. Left alive? Yeah. Or unaccounted for?

These, I think they're not really sure, but North Koreans claim they're at. Yeah. Yeah, it is, of course, a sad story, especially for those of as family members in Japan. But it is remarkable, I guess, that in state-to-state relations, this is able to to keep or to prevent those relations from progressing for so long, right? I mean, we're talking more than a quarter of a century. And I think your interview subject, Mr. Yavanaka, brought up the importance of regaining trust and building trust. Yeah, so we talked about joint exercises between South Korea, Japan, and also it could involve United States, of course, Australia.

But some South Koreans have voiced concerns that Japanese forces coming into the Korean Peninsula could cause the past historical issues as well from the colonization period. But he did say its confidence building is very important, and Japan also has to take the issue with sensitivity. But, of course, defense cooperation remains very essential. And this is specifically defense cooperation. to deter North Korean corrections, right? Yeah. What did he say in relation to the Taiwan issue that's been a hot topic in the last couple of years, especially with this idea of a one theater,

an entire Indo-Pacific regional military theater with an emphasis on China? How does he feel about that? So Japan reportedly proposed that idea of one theater. So basically, that means South Korean and Japanese troops will also have to defend Taiwan, if something happens there, if it gets attacked by China. But he says not a lot of Japanese diplomats support that idea. And he was saying Taiwan and North Korea are completely separate issues. So, yeah, it's not very relevant.

Now, we should point out that Mr. Yabanaka, as a former vice-farmist, he's no longer part of the Japanese government. He's able to speak a bit more frankly, a bit more freely than a usual diplomat or government member would. right? Yeah. He also gave some comments about South Korea's attempts to engage with North Korea, specifically under President E.J. Myeong. What's his attitude towards engagement with North Korea? He was pretty supportive, but he did say we always have to be aware of North Korea's provocation. So, yeah, I mean, it's a good move. It's a good step, but still need to be very cautious. Yes, he said, the North Korea is a very difficult country to negotiate with. I think we've seen that over the decade.

key themes there are the importance of trust building with North Korea and confidence building between Japan and South Korea. Did he give any comments at all? I know it's not in your story, but I'm wondering whether he mentioned it in your interview. Did he give any comments about the Zainichi, the ethnic Koreans who live in Japan and their kind of caught between two worlds, caught between South Korea, caught between North Korea? Yeah, we did talk about, because recently the Japanese court ruled that the ethnic Koreans who returned to North Korea and then they eventually defected because because of all the mistreatments there. He did say it's something North Korea has to address as well because the Japanese court is claiming North Korea should be responsible

for this issue, but they haven't really responded. And also, he also mentioned that Chaiichi Koreans were once considered a spy group back in the days, but by the Japanese government, by the Japanese public. And that was the conception, but that's how they lived for a long time. So he did say Japan should respect their lifestyles. But I, yeah, I've heard a lot of interesting stories about ethnic Koreans in Japan because a lot of them, they choose a North Korean passport. While there are some people who choose South Korean, I know one of the UFC fighters in Korea, like Chu-Sahun, he tried to become. South Korean, but then he went back to Japan and became naturalized Japanese.

But I think among a lot of overseas Koreans, Korean and Japanese are very unique since a lot of them refuse to become Japanese and maintain their identity. And a lot of them are in North Koreans. Yes, in terms of citizenship. And North Korea continues to court their loyalty, their friendship. We had a story by our colleague, Sung, earlier last week, about the two. million dollars, two million U.S. dollars approximately that Kim Jong-un donated to these pro-North Korean, pro-North Korean ethnic Koreans in Japan, the Zainichie people. And that is specifically about

two million dollars to educate the pro-North Korean youth to keep them loyal. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, yeah, two million dollars to Chong'an. And they, I think a... Chongering is the name of the association, right, of resident Koreans in Japan. specifically loyal to North Korea. Yeah. Yeah, so like I said, a lot of ethnic Koreans, they learn the North Korean ideologies and they get their educations. But they also face a lot of challenges because I read in the Signing story that one of the right-wing

Japanese man was trying to throw a rock or something to the school. Right. Right. Which is very, very close to the Yasukuni Shrine in the city. in Tokyo. It's all, if you stand at the Yasukuni Shrine, I think you can visibly,

you can see the Chongjong Headquarters building and vice versa. So they're very close to each other, ironically. Yes, and as you'll hear in my interview later on this episode, the number of children

who are going to these pro-North Korean schools is shrinking each year. The number of schools is shrinking each year. So this is a very significant donation by Kimmerment, $2 million to basically keep the schools going. Right, right.

And to continue. that political education. Also, it's very significant because it comes in a time after North Korea has given up on the idea of unification with South Korea, and it has enforced the pro-North Koreans in Japan to accept an idea. So I imagine that some of this $2 million in education funding will go to new textbooks, new songs, which do not mention unification, and which specifically portrays South Korea as being a foreign nation. not a nation of brothers. So that's probably going to cause, I mean, I'm just guessing you,

but it's probably going to cause some pain in the Zainichi community in Japan. Because some of them have relatives in South Korea. Some of them originally came from, you know, southern provinces, Cholado and Kyeongsandor, even Chichuro, and some of them have even traveled to South Korea. So this, it'll be interesting to see what the long-term effect. to that funding. I've also heard some Jainichi Koreans.

They just don't choose their nationality. They just remain as refugees. So they're called Joseon Jocin Korea, which Chosun here means not DPRK, it's the old dynasty, it's a Joseon dynasty. And not a lot of them, but they just don't want to accept the fact that Korea is divided.

So they just, yes, they have chosen people, which is very interesting, I think. I'm not sure how they live without a past, I'm not sure if they can go on a trip or anything, but it's... Years ago, I met one of them in Australia, and she was traveling with a special travel document, which was issued by the Chongdian Association. Not really a passport, but it is a special travel document,

and the government of Australia at that time accepted it as a legitimate document for travel to Australia. I don't know if that's still the case, but I imagine that, yeah, that the Chongren Association still is still. issues these documents to its members. Now, see what we're doing. We've got a few minutes left.

Let's talk about some naval cooperation. So, following on on the theme of what you talked about with the former vice foreign minister, we have the naval commanders of the United States, the Republic of Korea and Japan, met last week on Wednesday to talk about strengthened maritime cooperation. Tell us a bit more. Yeah, they came over to Seoul. Mostly it was about cooperation in response to North Korea's growing, nuclear and missile threats.

And it also focused on improving joint defense coordination, expanding worship maintenance cooperation, and resuming search and rescue drills between South Korea and Japan. So a lot of military exchanges. Yeah. Did North Korea say anything about this? North Korea, so they have condemned the cooperation as provocation, while U.S. South Korea and Japan say it's purely defensive.

Right. And North Korea also said that any corresponding exercises were, quote, a reckless show of force. Of course, none of this will please Pyongyang, this kind of naval cooperation. It's almost inevitable that is going to make Pyongyang angry. But it is, I think, a positive development for South Korea to see this kind of a high-level dialogue and cooperation with Japan. Of course, there's no evidence of intentions to strike North Korea. This is all purely defensive. Now, also in a review of state media, North Korea gave some comments last week during the celebrations around Kim Il-Song's birthday, gave some pretty strong comments about Japan's diplomatic blue book.

So it's an annual report on Japan's foreign affairs policy, and North Korea described it as a grave provocation because this book kind of demands North Korea's complete and irreversible disarmament. And yeah, pretty sure North Korea was not happy. Denuclearization, right? And that's something that North Korea is not happy about. And so there was some consistent calls there throughout the week to, you know, against Japan and calling out Japan for having what they call a tricky document. So, yeah, I guess it's always an issue on North Korea, slamming Japan for historical issues. And Japan is not really happy with abduction problems. Right.

Yeah. It's a continuing problem. And of course, for both sides, the other side is an easy target, right? For North Korea, Japan is an easy target because of its colonial history. And for Japanese right-wingers, North Korea is an easy target because of the unresolved abductions issue. But I think abductions mostly happen to teach Japanese, a Japanese language, North Green Spice back during the heavier of that. That was one of the stories. That's right.

But as you'll hear in my interview later on, when this was finally admitted, by North Korea. Many of the Zainichi Koreans in Japan were confused because I thought, well, if North Korea wanted Japanese teachers, they could have hired us. We would have gone over there. We speak fluent Japanese. We could have gone to North Korea and taught Japan, you know, to teach Japanese to Chinese spies and, you know, everyone would be happy. Why did they have to abduct Japanese citizens? I think fake ideas as well, like whenever like North Korean spies come over to South Korea, I think Jainichis, there are, some of them are Japanese, but I think back then a lot of them passed. Yeah, correct.

So that's a, yeah, another angle there, the fake idea thing. Interesting. All right, well, thank you very much, Chuhon, for talking me through these stories today, and we'll see you again soon. Thank you. Listeners, welcome back. Our special guest today is Dr. Sayaka Chattani. Just a bit of context for decades. North Korea has projected power far beyond its borders, not just through missiles and

diplomacy, but through communities of loyal supporters overseas. One of the most remarkable examples was in Japan, where hundreds of thousands of ethnic Koreans built institutions, schools, and political organizations aligned with the North Korean state. My guest today, Dr. Sanaka Chattani, explores that history in her book, written with Kumichor called A Nation within North Korean Zainichi in post-imperial Japan. Welcome on the show today, Dr. Chattani. Thank you. Thank you for have in me? So your book describes Chongyuan, and that is the North Korean or, well, the Korean name for this organization of pro-North Korea, ethnic Koreans or Zainichi Koreans living in Japan, as a nation within Japan, but one that was deeply oriented towards North Korea. So how did

a diaspora community living in Japan come to see itself as part of the North Korean National Project? Okay, thank you for the question. Well, it took me a whole book, too. explain that process, but to try to keep it short. So there were about 600 to 800,000 ethnic Koreans remaining in Japan right after World War II. And as everyone knows, the Japanese Empire collapsed when Japan surrendered to their allies. After that, many Korean diaspora Korean people living in Japan, they, first of all, they wanted to go home, right? They wanted to see the liberated hometown in South Korea. And by the way, 97, 98% of these Korean people came from the southern parts of Korea. So most of them had their family members in Busan or Jeju, right? And that's probably

because of the geographical proximity between Southern Korea and the Southern Ireland of Japan, right? I mean, if you're coming from the Northern Plate of Korea, it's a longer journey. Absolutely. So during the wartime, especially, the Japanese colonial government, conscripted and immobilized people in the southern parts of the Korean Peninsula to work in Japan, and those in the northern part were conscripted in Manchuria. So there were obviously a geographical reason to it.

And so at the moment of the Japanese imperial demise, there were estimate of about more than 2 million people, 2 million Koreans living in Japan, but about two-thirds quickly went back to Southern Korea. But the remaining about 600 to 800,000 people decided to organize themselves into one institution called the League of Korea. And that happened two months after the surrender. So it was a very fast-paced, very passionate, right? The passionate movement on the part of the Korean people.

The League of Koreans acted as a sort of semi-sovereign state for Korean people because they had no sovereignty representing them, right? The Japanese Empire was collapsed and the Korean states were not yet established and Japan was occupied by the U.S. military forces. So the League of Koreans acted as a representative of Korean entity and then he started to have. Was it politically aligned? It was. So at the beginning, it was inclusive of all sorts of Korean people, including leftists and rightists. However, soon afterwards, there was a fight against, internally there was a fight against colonial collaborators. So these people were accused to be, you know, pro-Japanese and they were ousted from the league.

So the remaining people were mostly left-leaning. So they remained or they aligned themselves with the leftist movements within South Korea back then. But eventually in 1948, the DPRK was established. So officially, the League of Koreans had a tie, established a tie with the DPRK. And afterwards, the U.S. occupation forces decided to close down the League of Koreans because of the Thai. with the DPRK and the fear of the rising communist threats within Japan and the region. And the Korean War started. So the League of Koreans was disbanded, but Korean activists gathered again and created another organization.

It started as an underground community, but they started to fight against the U.S. forces during the Korean. while they lived in so that was called Minjong and in 195 within Minjong there was a critique about working together with the Japanese

Communist Party and when this is when the critical sort of change of course happened and internally the eventual founder of Chong Yun came in

to power and he persuaded that we should break out of a coalition with the JCP. The Japanese communist party. Right. And then become more focused ethnic representation, Korean people with closer tie with the DPRK. So that's Chong'an. Right. So you've got a, it's actually because you've got things happening internally in North Korea

and in Japan. So we've just heard a bit about what was happening in Japan. I'm interested in switching to North Korea of the DPRK in those early decades right after the Korean War. How was the Pyongyang government presenting itself to Koreans in Japan? What was the kind of the image that the DPRK was projecting to the diaspora and what was the story that it was telling? Right. So Kim Il-sung was quite smart in the way that he actually reached out to Korean people in Japan. And he was speaking to the Korean diaspora remaining in Japan.

And while Singh Marie did nothing, he basically thought Koreans remaining in Japan were a business for, it's not a business for South Koreans, but it's Japanese problem, right? But the Kim Il-Sot thought they called Korean diaspora DPRK nationals living abroad. So especially in 1954 onward, these messages were directly coming from the DPRK government, and therefore the Minjohn and Chongyong people were very inspired, and they started to see themselves as belonging to the homeland, thanks to Kim Ilson's recognition. So it sounds like the neglect of the South Korean government really led to almost a victory by default by the North Korean government. Yeah, but not only that, the DPRC started sending money to help Chongyang build the schools.

This is a very famous foundational story for the Chongyang people and the Chongyang schools. Because thanks to Kim Il-sung, even after the Korean War devastation, they started to send millions of dollars every year to help us. So that created an emotional bond. Yeah, let's talk about those schools, because that, particularly that was where the next generation of ethnic Korean children born and raised in Japan were educated within a worldview that was very much centered on North Korea. What exactly did students learn about the DPRK growing up in those schools?

And was everything taught in Korean? Was the next generation of Zainishi kids even capable of doing everything in Korean while being surrounded by Japanese? That was exactly the problem for, for Chongyong schools. At the beginning when they started schools by the League of Koreans, right? It was 1945 and Chongdiam took over

many of the Korean schools in 1955. But earlier, older generations, first generations, were native speakers of Koreans, but those who grew up in wartime Japan or right after, they were educated under very adamant, strong assimilationist

empire, so they were not allowed to speak Korean in many places. So children naturally could only speak Japanese. And the first thing the first generation Koreans wanted to do is to undo that. So teaching the Korean language was a priority in every Korean neighborhood. So there were more than 500 schools that just erupted everywhere in Japan. And the first thing is they taught Korean how to read Korean to illiterate old people as well. So not just children, but let's become Korean by learning Korean. So that was the mission. And so that when the teachers were still first generations were educated Korean, second generation, the problem was not that big. But when the history progressed and in the 60s and 70s, when the teachers became second generation themselves,

Then it became a lot more difficult to teach children the living Korean language. Right? So all the instructions are supposed to be in Korean. And they did use a lot of textbooks that came from North Korea at the beginning. And eventually, Chong Jong started to produce their own textbooks, which is sort of a modification of, you know, Japanese and North Korean curriculum. So they started to have Japanese lesson as well, but most of the time teachers and students were communicating in Korean. But that Korean over time became a creolized Korean language.

So Akkyo has its, the schools started to have their own sort of linguistic community, which is hard to understand from outsiders. Yes, I can imagine. I remember when I attended the Yonsei University Korean Language School back in the late 1990s, I met some Korean Japanese, Japanese Koreans who had grown up in these schools. They'd been to the Minjokakur. They, even a couple of them had been to North Korea on that ship that would take people over for a kind of, like almost a graduation trip at the end of high school. You know, they got to visit from young.

But they were, they came eventually to Seoul. and were learning Korean at the same school where I was learning Korean because they didn't feel confident enough that their Korean was up-to-date, was functional that they could work with Korean. Was that a common thought at the time, do you think? Well, I think they did their best, right? So until 1965, South Korea and Japan didn't have a normalized diplomatic relationship. So they couldn't study in South Korea.

either. So the teachers sometimes were the refugees from South Korea and or dispatch from, you know, more educated Koreans. So they could, they, they did their best in the 60s and 70th. However, the concern started to grow in the later period in the 80s and 90s. And I think, and especially because the only Korean they are exposed to is North Korean Korean. And when they just met South Korea and or go study in South Korea, they had to relearn the pronunciation, a lot of expressions. And yeah, I'm curious of your experience of speaking with these students. But overall, these even second, third generation Korean students, they could manage, they learned how to communicate with their grandparents coming from Jeju or PhuSan. So I think they achieved a certain level of communicational ability.

Now, for the second and third generation of these ethnic Koreans in Japan, what kind of emotional or ideological relationship did they develop with North Korea, especially if they'd never visited the country? Oh, yeah, that's an interesting question that I try to collect from by interviewing hundreds of people. And obviously, emotional commitment vary from one person to another. And most of the emotional commitment came from their strong community bond that was created through the school education or school environment, right? So while the whole Zainiti Korean society was discriminated against for so long in Japanese

society, those who went to the Korean schools were protected by many adults and teachers and institutions. So they created a strong bond within that sort of warm village-like environment. So my argument in my book is that it's not because they were loyal to the North Korean state that they created a community as a diaspora in Japan. But the other way around, they were committed to the community, diasporic community and institution, that's why they extended that sort of bond to North Korea. So they thought they were very successful in protecting each other and making an environment in which children can thrive. They felt responsible to sort of expand that community to North Korea. So that's why they started to, you know, kept sending.

sending children or younger people to North Korea. And sometimes they came back, sometimes they didn't. So the emotional commitment to North Korea, I think, started within the sort of more local neighborhood and school community. It's interesting. Now, one of the most dramatic episodes that you discuss in your book is the repatriation program that sent tens of thousands of Koreans from Japan to North Korea,

starting in the late 1950s and continuing until the 1980s. This is the notorious heaven on earth or paradise on earth program. Now, listeners might remember that I interviewed Ms. Pak Yang Su, who lost several members of her family to that project. That was in episode 243 of the NK News podcast, released almost four years ago on 5th of July 2022. So I encourage our listeners to go back and listen to that one in full. It's a very moving episode.

But to you, I'd like to ask, Why did so many people decide to leave Japan, a country that was the only country they knew, for a place that most of them had never seen firsthand? Right. So again, the motivation of repatriation is complicated, and people have different motivations. However, at the beginning, when the repatriation movement started, The first two years,

the Chonjon and the Red Cross were sending very poor Koreans. So they were published. They might have education, but they just couldn't find a job. And they were feeling their life is at the dead end of society, Japanese society. And of course, the propaganda from North Korea, and then Chongyong saying the government will provide housing

and free education, free medical care. And then you will be loved. We will be embraced by the homeland. This was quite enticing for many people who were exhausted living in xenophobic Japanese society. So when it started again, Japan didn't have a diplomatic. relationship with South Korea.

So they couldn't go to South Korea. So when we had a choice to live under successful socialist country, as they perceived as of 1959, many people raised their hand and, you know, they competed against each other to get on board.

So that was the first two years. And eventually, the government, the North Korean government realized that it went over their capacity. So too many people, too many people to assist. So it started to recruit, the Chongyang started to recruit more people with, you know, technical skills or industrial skills or, you know, those with high degree, academic degrees or top cadres from Chongyuan.

So it became a little more selective. Right. Like an immigration program in any modern Western. nation, I suppose. Did people inside the Chongyuan community begin to question North Korea over time, especially as information about conditions of life inside, the BPRK became harder to ignore? Right. So this is a controversial point in Japanese media. In the 1960s, through the course of that decade, it started to come out, right? People, repatriate, started to write in an indirect way that don't come. It's not good. However, all the information that came from other sources,

children people were very skeptical as of late 1960s because South Korea and North Korea were engaging in sort of in a third or second Korean War sort of thing. It's a very intense infiltration try, you know, attempt and their tensions were really high. So there was information warfare going on. So Chong'an, cadres and people tended to see negative information about North Korean society as sort of communication glitch or propaganda from the South Korean government. So they were not sure what to believe as of the late 1960s. But in the 1970s, but in the 1970s, I think people started to see it's very difficult to live in North Korea

and a lot of information started to make sense but they couldn't visit they couldn't make shorter visit to North Korea until late 1970s or early 80s so the information was they couldn't make sure of what was happening sure, yeah Well, the Japan's bubble economy in the 1980s moved top carders of the Chongdon movement to send vast sums of money to North Korea,

often embezzling their fellow Chongren members in Japan in the process. And you write in your book that many interviewees said that Chongdong Kong focused too much on North Korea and neglected the community living in Japan. So it's kind of the opposite of what really started the Chongan, which was focusing on the local community. So what were the incentives and structures that move? these top carters to do this, to focus more on the North Koreans, on the homeland, North Korea, than their fellow Koreans living in Japan. So again, as you said, that the bubble economy happening in Japan emboldened many carjays. When Chongjon itself started many businesses in Pachinko Pollars, for example,

they started to create millions of dollars. it used to rely on a lot more on the grassroots donations coming from small businesses. But now within the bubble economy, they started to make a lot of money by investing, but also running big businesses. And that money started to be seen as a personal possession by Quadras. And they started to use the money to enhance. their political status. In order to do so, they would basically donate a lot of money to the North Korean government

or sections of the government so that they will be invited to this, you know, considered as important. So that there's a whole cycle of the money coming from the Japanese society and economy, but also that was sort of used to politically enhance individual statuses. Have you been to Pyongyang yourself? No, I haven't. The last time I was there, we were taken to a kind of an entertainment center where you can shoot live chickens or birds.

And there was also a room of Pichinko machines. Oh, interesting. So they do have a couple of places in Pyongyang where locals can play Pachinko, and they use the word duck, I think maybe even Jongja Orak, meaning an electronic entertainment machine. and I had a look in, and there was even a sign above the door that said that the leader Kim Jong-un had visited this place and, you know, inspected it and maybe given some advice. So it's an officially sanctioned place.

They do have some limited number of Pachinko machines in North Korea. I found that interesting. And moving forward to 2002, when Kim Jong-il had that summit with Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi, Kim Jong-il admitted that North Korea had abducted Japanese citizens over the decades and had taken them to North Korea. What effect did this admission have in Japan on the Chongyang? Right. The effect was enormous. It was devastating for the community and the organization. So there was a rumor, right, that there were many missing persons in Japan and there was a rumor and tabloid report saying that it's North Korean flights who abducted these people. And from Chongyang's point of view,

Chongyang people's point of view, like why? Why would the government do that? And the reason would be in order to learn the Japanese language and culture, but then Chongyang people were like, we would be able to help

help the government do that. So there's no point of doing this. So it became a very important moment of self-reflection on the part of the people, many people were very disappointed by

Kim Jong-il's admission itself because that would basically endanger the presence people in Japan and there were already a lot of harassment and especially attacks

on school children on the community. So... Because they wore a kind of a the chosen or the chogori dress, particularly the girls, right? They were visibly not Japanese by their dress, yeah.

Yes, so girls' uniform tend to be this chogori dress. So they could be targeted. And even before 2002 admission, there were many incidents in the 1990s. So after 2002, many parents became very angry at the whole admission by the Kim Jong-il. and the Chongyang organization and Japanese society, and they were very angry. And many people were devastated. Young people especially were quite, you know, they wanted to distance themselves from a Chongyang organization and even older people who devoted themselves to the organization

so long, they lost their sense of righteousness. and legitimacy because they thought they were the victims. And they were very proud of being decolonial, right? So I guess 2002 was a pivotal year. So the organization, it's fair to say, lost influence, membership, and money through that admission. Would that be correct? Yeah, to a large degree, yeah.

Yeah. Now, I'm really curious as to what state Chong'on is in today. I understand that Kim Jong-un's turn away from peaceful unification. with South Korea at the end of 2023, caused some confusion in Chonunurals in Japan. And when they got the official message that unification is now removed as an ultimate goal for Zainichi Koreans,

what remains? Yeah, exactly. So I think that announcement came in January 24. And a few months later, that announcement came to Chonon and then they started to implement. that rule to cadres first to see how that goes. But people were very angry at this whole new direction.

And I was, I only visited there in July 2024. And that was the last time I visited Tongom people. So I can't say how they were doing this year. However, that's almost two years ago. But when they just received that announcement, they were reflecting again on what this was about. They couldn't understand why they abandoned, the Kim Jong abandoned the goal of peaceful unification.

What would they do? Would they defy? Would they follow? And many of the Chongyang Korean schools, they decided to ignore that announcement, we ignore that order coming from the government. saying we cannot suddenly abandon and the relationship with South Korean supporters. Nowadays, there are a lot of South Korean visitors and supporters who donate money and

without that kind of, you know, support and connection, Chonging schools cannot be run anymore. So, yeah, upon alumni and teachers, sort of an endorsement, I think many schools decided to continue working together with South Korean supporters. So there is a lot of confusion, as you said. And at the grassroots level, I think people were defying. They were like, we're not going to, we're not going to listen to this. Do you think that could lead to some kind of an organizational split within the Chongyun,

kind of an offshoot branching off and saying, we will be the pro-unification Chongjunct. Is that possible or likely? I don't think it would lead to a split. And I'm a social historian. This book really focused on the community network. So I'm not very familiar with the high politics and political decision making between the Chongyang top leaders and North Korean government. And some people have told me that you wouldn't understand it.

Chongyang cannot ignore the homeland's directives. It's created that way. So I'm not aware how this would turn out, but I would say the grassroots level might have another moment of self-reflection on what they're going to do in terms of the school commitments and so donations and, yeah, their loyalty to the community itself. Just briefly, what would you say is the size of the community, the active community either? How many schools are left? How many members of Chong'an are left approximately? Do you have any idea? So that's a very difficult estimate.

I think officially they still have close to 150 schools, I think. I might be wrong. But these schools are difficult to count in the first place because sometimes they put the elementary school and middle school together and they count as one or all the elementary, middle and high school together. So it's very difficult to count how many are remaining. And sometimes they are not taking new students but still continuing or, you know, but it's getting smaller, obviously.

And students are about less than 5,000. Last time I might check. So it is shrinking. And the thing about Korean schools is that once the school number reaches a certain points, it's very difficult for parents send their children to that school because it's just literally too far and you can't leave

elementary school children in dormitory anymore parents refuse to do that anymore so it's just it becomes not so once it starts shrink then it will go it will accelerate

so that unfortunately that's the state there was some number that the public security agency of the Japanese government estimated. I forgot the exact number. I think it was active number. Active members are about 70,000 or so. But again, this is also fluid number. I'm not sure how they counted this.

Even when I met active members, they are sometimes Mindam members, but no longer paying fee to Chongyong, but they are within the Chongyong community. So it's very difficult to calculate the numbers. But yes, it is shrinking. Does Tongyro still have a big headquarters building near the Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo? Yes. Yeah, it does. Yeah. Fascinating. What a historical irony. Last question for you, Dr. Chapani.

After researching the story, writing a book and interviewing hundreds of people, What surprised you most about the relationship between North Korea and its diasporic community in Japan? The most surprising thing for me is that they feel very close to North Korea, closer to North Korea than anywhere else. So when I talked with a lot of younger people, right, like my generation and their children are in elementary schools, and they say something like, oh, we named the name, the name. We named our children in the way that even Westerners can pronounce easily. But they don't have liberty to visit the United States or anywhere else, but Pyongyang, right? So they feel the connection to Pyongyang is primary rather than the rest of the world.

So that really surprised me. And they do discuss that, oh, should I send our children to soccer summer camp in Pyongyang, they really want to go, but I don't know if I can afford it. You know, that's the conversation. So it felt that Pyongyang is really close to them compared to how we feel about Pyongyang, especially I'm a Japanese citizen. So Pyongyang feels very far from us, but it's just a very different perspective in terms of the mental geography.

That really prompted to think about how they view the geography, how they view the geography, how they view there are some spatial politics in the community. Well, thank you very much. It's been fascinating. I recommend our readers have a look at your book, A Nation Within North Korean Zainichi in post-imperial Japan. Thank you, Dr. Chattani. Thank you very much. Looking to stay informed about South Korea's fast-evolving political business

and cultural landscape, join us on Korea Pro, the go-to resource for in-depth analysis expertly curated by top-tier professionals. And now you can pick the membership level that best suits your needs, thanks to our new subscription packages. Starting at just $199 annually, you can access daily analysis and our weekly podcast. Or try our premium membership package, which offers additional perks such as executive briefings, monthly reports and forecasts, networking receptions and event opportunities, as well as much, much more.

To find the best fit for you, just head to Scyliferation. signup.compro.org and become a member today. Ladies and gentlemen, that brings us to the end of our podcast episode for today. Our thanks go to Brian Betts and David Choi for facilitating this episode and to our post-recording producer Alana Hill, who cuts out all the extraneous noises, awkward silences, bodily functions, and fixes the audio levels. Thank you for listening and listen again next time.