North Korea News Podcast by NK News - Seongmin Lee: How USB flash drives can empower North Koreans

Episode Date: September 26, 2024

Seongmin Lee, an escapee from North Korea, joins the podcast to discuss his work to smuggle information into the DPRK through Flash Drives for Freedom, a project under the nonprofit Human Rights Foundation. He talks about how the international community can support the project, the future goals of the program and criticism that the Human […]

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2024. Joining me here in the studio today, we have Song Min-li, who is the director of the Korea Desk at the Human Rights Foundation. He was born and raised in North Korea, later coming to South Korea and then received his bachelor's degree in political science from Columbia University and a master's in international security policy and management from Columbia School of International and Public Affairs. Welcome on the show, Song Min. Oh, thanks, Seco, for having me.

So let's talk about flash drives for freedom first. Tell us about flash drives for freedom. What are the primary objectives of this initiative and how do you assess its impact on North Korean citizens inside North Korea? The flash drives for freedom is a multi-overdue winning program that aims to send information from the outside world to North Koreans. We do this in partnership with local activist groups. Activist groups here in South Korea.

Here in South Korea. That's correct. As we know, the North Koreans are most oppressed people in this world. I cannot attest to that as a North Korean defector and lived there, lived there over 20 something years there. We do not have the internet access. We are not allowed to make calls with outside the world. Of course, we are not allowed to leave the country without authorization.

So everything is controlled. So the program is trying to provide North Koreans with alternative sources information to educate them, to help them understand their situation better in connection with the outside world. So in terms of the program effects, so the program actually was launched in 2016. Since then, we have now sent over 136,000 flash drives and SD cards. Ah, so flash drives and SD cards. Yeah, SD cards. 136,000. That's right.

Okay. And sometimes there is a hardware, you know, the bigger capacity memory drives. So in our view, it has impacted over 1.3 million North Koreans. I'll explain how we came up with that number. So our field partners estimated that one U.S. drive is shared by 10 people on average.

So what it means is that if you're North Korean, imagining ourselves as North Korean, you have a single piece of drive, either we will share that content with my siblings, my uncles and cousins and the close friends. So either, you know, sharing content or USB drive itself. But isn't that dangerous? It is dangerous, but that's what North Koreans do. So simply we could come up with a figure,

over 1.3 million people have been impacted. Yeah, so in terms of, I think that this is very important, I think to mention, if If you think about amount of content sent through these years, total amount we calculate now amounts to 64.7 million hours of reading materials, PDF files and electric files, in novels and history, et cetera, and 2.6 million hours of footage. So it's a lot. So it's not just text,

there's also video footage in there as well. Yeah, sorry for your listeners, a lot of numbers are statistics, but you could visit our program for more details. Right, you've got a website there, flashdrivesforfreedom.org. Now your organization is part of the Human Rights Foundation. What is that organization's goal broadly speaking and what are its specific goals about North Korea?

So yeah, Human Rights Foundation is a New York based non-profit and non-political organization. Our mission is to protect and promote human rights and democracy worldwide with the focus on closed societies. So North Korea is one of them. HR has been involved extensively in Asia in terms of promoting human rights and helping activists in the region. So North Korea is one of them. So Fresh Rights for Freedom, for instance, that's one program we are working. activists in the region. So North Korea is one of them. So,

Flatirates for Freedom, for instance, that's one program we are working. And the other aspect is we are directly helping activists here in Korea, either to providing resources they need, connection they need, or international, global platform. For instance, the Human Rights Foundation runs

the International Cities Conference called Oslo Freedom Forum. So the Oslo Freedom Forum. Yes. We are inviting them there to share their stories with the international community. So coming back to its specific goals on North Korea in promoting freedom and democracy, does the Human Rights Foundation specifically call for regime change in North Korea?

We are not necessarily aiming at the regime change, per se. But I think that different people interpret it in a different way. But I think that, for instance, Fletcher's for Freedom, as an embodiment of what we are doing here, the program aim is not a regime change. Aim is to empower North Koreans. More informed citizens are more likely to affect the policies in a positive way. So it could be, you know, if a regime change, that is a North Korean choice or just change the policy in a way that is positive for them.

But it's not seeking then to directly cause regime instability or change from outside. Is that? Yeah, we are helping North Koreans to listen was gonna write to now so because the access to a free flow of information is globally recognized Protector human rights so yeah, okay And what it what inspired you to launch Flash Drives for Freedom?

And how does your personal journey through life influence your approach to this work? So Flash Drives for Freedom, the program actually was launched before I joined the Human Rights Foundation. It was launched in 2016. So basically, I also learned that those background stories later. So what happened was around 2013-14 and 2015, the Human Rights Foundation already was helping activist groups and listening to their stories. And many defectors from South Korea or elsewhere, they were kind of unanimously talking about importance of sending expanded information to North Korea. So HRF also organized hackathon in Silicon Valley.

Ah, hackathon, I've heard about that. Yeah, inviting over 100 technologists and activists so they even brainstormed about how to outbreak to the North Korean implementation blockade. In 2016, the following year, the organization launched this program. And yeah, in my view, there has been a resounding success from the perspective of the metrics we have seen. Now, I understand that you grew up in Hyesan, the capital of Ryanggang province, which is in the far north of North Korea, near Baekdu mountain and the border with China.

At that time when you were growing up, did information from South Korea reach you when you were in Hyesan? A lot. The Hyesan is not just the area the information reached, but we actually actively played the role of distributor. Tell more about that. The hessan is considered a hub of imported and exported goods from to China. And also famous for a lot of people trying to defect. Famous routes for defection. I mean, I myself was born in that city

and grew up there. Grew up basically in China, just across the Yalu River. And I saw how that information environment evolved because it has played such an important role in terms of information distribution in North Korea. So we send a lot of contents back then. This content, of course,

are not coming immediately from South Korea, they're coming through China into the North of North Korea. It's very hard to reach Hyesun from South Korea even with a balloon or whatever. It's very hard to reach that far. We never seen that thing like a balloon. But back then we see that in a tape video recorder, that was like old version and it was like strictly required. And there was like a strictly required by agency to register.

There was a particular institute to register with. And then after that, so then we started seeing CD players and VCD players and DVD players or different version of DVDs. And there was just like a pulling in basically across the border. I'm not talking about just a smuggling routes, but even official customs, the border. I'm not talking about just a smuggling routes, but even official customs, customs.

Really? Yeah. A lot of the players were shipped to main cities including Pyongyang, Sarimun, Pyeongsan, Monsan, or all over North Korea. That was, I think that initial stage of information revolution, I'll call it, in North Korea. It was early 2000. And yeah, I also engaged the cross-border business

for seven, eight years. So I did- You did some trading. Yes, I did extensive, involved extensive trading across the border. What were you bringing into North Korea? A lot of things, a lot of things. Initially I brought in something like cookies,

chocolate, small items, because I was a small little kid. Crossed the border into China out of curiosity. And soon that developed into full-fledged business. They're having relations with border guards as my corporate business partners. And police officers, they also backing my operations in the second line, as you call it, after the border area. We brought in items like the car engines, motorcycles, and parts, and a lot of things. A lot of demands there in North Korea. And also DVDs, did you bring them into?

DVD players and DVD, the movies. Yeah, a lot of South Korean dramas, movies, yeah. Wow, okay. Now, how do you, how does your organization, a lot of South Korean dramas and movies. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Now, how do you, how does your organization flash drives for freedom? How do you today send information into North Korea? How do you get the flash drives there? So this is a open park. Yes.

So, um, it's, there is a certain limit. Um, I cannot say I cannot go into a great detail. Um, there are a lot of different ways to do that. Um, there are a lot of different ways to do that. There are a lot of different ways. Of course, none of them is perfect. Every approach has pros and cons. Some of them send it to the balloons,

and some of the others send it to in-person networks based in China or the world in North Korea. Some of them direct the sender with help of North Koreans who are abroad. Now I imagine during the pandemic time it was more difficult to get the flash drives into North Korea. Is that right? That's correct. I now understand there are some few limited number of organizations still managing to get those things through across the border. But relatively speaking, compared to the time when I was there, of course the border has been fortified

during the pandemic, yeah, it was nearly shut. Right, okay, but now that the, even in North Korea, finally the pandemic closures have finished, so are you able to do more work now getting the information? Yeah, basically we are seeing that opportunities are opening itself as North Korea is opening the border, loosening the border security a little bit. But yeah, still we need to put a lot of caution.

Caution, right. Now what kind of information or content do you want to send to North Korean people? Does it include political content or is it a bit less political? Yeah, I think that there is a real debate among experts and even activists in terms of what content should or should not be sent. But in my view, it could be, I think that any content. The reason is because North Korea is not the single monotonic group. There are so many different people,

so many different education level, perspectives, experiences. So it's harder to customize which content and also which content goes to whom. So if you send all kind of variety, whether it's political, apolitical, historical historical or entertainment, if you send those contents, even including education content like learning English, for instance. Yeah, so different people, you know, market works, the market system, you know, facilitate the process according to the interest of different

groups inside North Korea. I know some groups have downloaded all of Wikipedia's content in Korean and put that on flash drives. Is that something that your group does as well? Our partner organization, yeah, they do. They organize, yeah, even the Naver website, the content, and Wikipedia content, things like that. So I think that is a, I think that is, it might be that's a positive thing. You don't have to feed the particular content to North Koreans based on your particular perspective. Let them see the content of the world and let them decide what to read and not to read. Now what are the main challenges in smuggling information into North Korea

and how do you or how does your your do your partner organizations ensure the safety and effectiveness of these efforts? Yeah, so there are a lot of certain things I could think about, think about in terms of, you know, enhancing effectiveness. But I think there is also certain limit, you know, in terms of the, how much we could help them to shape this operation environment. The reason is because our role here is pressure for freedom. Learning this program is not directly to get involved here and instruct them in every detail

as well to download or who gets received. So instead, we are helping activists, the people who we understand are based about North Koreans in the respective area. So let them decide what to read. And in terms of effectiveness, we want to ensure that content is delivered to North Koreans. There are different ways to verify that with the content content, which there was a sense. But there are certain things we cannot, we shouldn't even try to understand from the security perspective. So is your organization then like a middleman between the foreign funders and the local

groups who actually do the physical work of sending the drives in? Yeah, so basically that's correct characterization, but they do send the program updates because we need to understand actually how, you know, this is a working. Right. There has to be some transparency. Yeah. Transparency and also because there are a lot of people involved. If you think about the financial freedom, it looks like just on website out there, there's

a lot of people involved in our colleagues and they invest in all the sorting out the process, organizing donations process, everyone is working, a lot of people involved. So we need to make sure what we do actually have impact on the ground. Is there some evaluation process there where you look at the different groups and say, this group is doing a better job than that group,

or maybe we shouldn't fund this group so much or something like that? It happens, it happens. It happens and we are, because we have, the program is now, you know, it has been launched over 10 years ago. So we have expensive experiences of, you know, working with all kinds of different groups

and understand the appraisal environment, what are the user limits, and the stretches you could push. So yeah, there are certain groups, certain times they're doing better over another. Right. Now, how do you think the international community, people who are listening to this podcast, for example, how can they better help support efforts like flash drives for freedom to promote freedom of information inside North Korea? Yeah, thank you for that question.

I think this is very important. Very important is not because I was born and grew up in North Korea, but I think if you are seriously concerned about the well-being of North Korean people and also changing of North Korea, I think that sending information is not a cliché. There are a lot of people talking about sending information, but that's actually what it is. The weak is the link of North Korean system. That's why they're active. The regime is actively, you know, with angrily. So what you could do is that, you know, given this importance, you could do a lot of things with, you know, if if you are loyal you could help activist

organizations in legal area if you are a technologist you could help with in a technological aspect you know if you are willing to if you want to contribute financially there are ways to you know to do that so if you visit our website we actually list a number of activists groups there. So you could see what they are doing and support the program. Or if you have any questions about any of them or about our program, please feel free to reach out to us. Okay. Now, have you already received feedback and stories from North Koreans who have accessed the information provided through these flash drives?

Yes and no. And there is a certain program, certain flash drives we sent, we received the feedback directly, but it doesn't necessarily mean we receive in a feedback every single time we send information. The reason, because as I noted earlier, it's sometimes harder to see actually

who actually get to see our contents because of security reasons. I just want to tell you yesterday, I received the feedback, feedback from North Korea. So we received the videos, the phrase got out of North Korea and also voice recording as well. The people, one person is based in a North and Pyongan province, just border with South Korea.

And another person based in Yangon province. And, uh, yeah, so it's great to hear their feedback. They're basically asking more such content and more USB drives. Wow. And has it impacted them to change anything about their life or what they're doing at this stage? Yeah, it's not like a huge change huge change like when you hear the the feedback In their voice you could hear it could feel like a mix Direction one is all you know they they're hopeful They're hopeful to receive some more the contents is from outside the world at the same time

They are they have a lot of grievances of that system, particularly the grievances in the officers, the government officers. They do not speak directly to Kim Jong-un. I don't know, maybe because of the security personal safety issue. But yeah, it's amazing to see that in other way they're complaining how corrupt that government officers. For instance, like when they're sending activists, sending flash drives, apparently police officers in the area. You know, government announcement basically says to residents, if you see any balloons, if you see any leaflets that fell on the ground, you should report to police station

nearby in a military base first, you shouldn't touch it, there is a poison, et cetera, et cetera. But apparently what I hear, all these police guys, they also human, they are opening that and then they, uh, which, you know, kind of taking it. There's some items like that could come into currency. So they are complaining like, you want to also receive that kind of things as you appear in the, the lockdown. Once they identify the balloon is landed, the

person lock the area down, lock that area down and send the police and military to collect it. So looking ahead then, what are your goals for the program? And how do you see it evolving to further empower the people inside North Korea? So given the importance of the information, because North Korea demands for it, and I do believe this is very important work. We need to see the real change in North Korea. They need to continue to do this work until the point that they no longer need it.

So the way I view it is that, yes, the environment is changing so fast and technology is evolving and flash drives is in some sense is outdated technology outside North Korea. But still, to North Koreans, it is a very valued item, cherished item. And also it serves its purpose. The information is a lot safer compared to DVD or CD. So I think that programs like this will be continuously useful for purposes in the coming years. But we're also looking forward to adopt, making use of the emerging technologies. So for instance, the programs of the flash drives for So for instance, like the program

is of the fresh drives for freedom, but I think if this is not the main, our work would be just limited to fresh drives only. So we are actually looking at other technologies as well, such as satellite devices and other, some innovative technologies and with the potential to apply in North Korea. So yeah, so continue to help North Koreans reach, have their excellent information.

Do you think that in the long term, if there's enough information circulating inside North Korea, that there might be opposition groups inside North Korea or people with, you know, people coming together to discuss different ideas or information that, that may be, may be stuff that the government doesn't like. Mm hmm. Yeah. So that's one idea. That's an idea.

You know, we hope to create a condition with one, my, you know, what we normally discuss on the, you know, the markets of ideas that people get to see. I think that the North Koreans would experience some things like cognitive dissonance because you experience that kind of thing when you see certain things you didn't expect to see and especially in contrast to your belief. As North Koreans started seeing a lot of different things

during the famine and after they're kind of trying to make sense of what was happening to them. Likewise, when they say, when they see the different content information, I don't expect that they just like immediately understand what it means and quickly turn into the power in a practice. They will need to some, we need to take, it will take time for them to process. So yeah, they would come that kind of days as we continue work towards that. Okay, now coming back for a moment to the Human Rights Foundation, that organization

has come under criticism for being too closely aligned with US foreign policy goals and focusing its criticism on countries that are unfriendly to the United States and having an ideological color that is right wingwing or libertarian. Now I know you called it a non-political group, but what do you think about those criticisms? Well, I think this is not really surprising to me. I think it's two things. First of all, the criticisms like that,

I don't think that's new, particularly because the human rights organizations, you know, whether we are advocating for liberal democracy and also in a market economy and human rights. So this is what it is. You know, the countries under command economy, countries under so-called socialistic country, like North Korea, we see a lot of oppression

and a lot of poverty and a lot of human rights violations. So the system needs to change. It needs to change for people. I mean, I was born in Guryat there. I saw the human rights violations and the people just deprived of any kind of basic freedom. So the organization like Human Rights Foundation is to help them, to help them improve the human rights situations. The human rights situations, and how do we improve? By providing different ideas.

And I think that, you know, given there are all different political systems, among them, I think that it is my personal view, liberal democracy is, of course, it's not perfect. It has its own, you know, the problems as we are rectifying it as a society. So I think that we hope the North Koreans to see the alternative system and to do that as an organization, what we're trying to do is help the activists

in those closed societies. So it may appear, may appear like what the US foreign policies aims to achieve, but this is not the case because our policy development and execution has nothing to do with the US government. Our sole mission is to help activists in those closed societies, especially the closed countries

like North Korea. Okay, all right. Let's now talk about a newer project, NK Insider, which listeners can find at nkinsider.org. What is it? What's NK Insider? Different ways to describe it, but NK Insider is a platform that features the voices of North Korean people. Okay, so it gives North Korean people a voice

to tell their stories in English, right? That's right. Now, how and why did you start this project? So, there are a number of excellent programs, including NK News. Yes. But I think the way we saw, when it comes to international discourse on North Korea,

I think that North Korean voice is still relatively underrepresented. I think it's important to have North Korean voices in this discourse, because at the end of the day, this is the issue that directly affects the interest of the North Korean people. So yeah, the program is working with a number of North Korean defectors. And I will say by expansion, we are also featuring the voices of those still inside North Korea. The reason because our activists, our writers and activists as well, they're interacting with those inside North Korea daily basis.

Okay. How long have you been running this website? We launched this this month January. January this year, so a little bit less than a year. Okay, now you already mentioned NK News. Do you see yourself as competing against NK News and 38 North and DailyNK, or are you sort of like a compliment, complimentary to those websites?

Yeah, that's a good question. I didn't see that as in terms of competition, but as you know, it's a complimentary. I respect what your colleagues are doing at NK News, producing excellent, excellent content covering the country. And of course, Dull D and North they also produce in very deep analysis. And they link on the heartland, they're also doing great job with underground reporters. So ours is, although we are all doing kind of

with a similar goal, providing insight into North Korean society, but our platforms, I think each platform plays a very unique role complementing each other. Okay, what kind of content, what sort of news and analysis are you putting up on NK Insider? So we are producing news content, updates and analysis as well. Yeah, all those are different contents and covering different aspects of North Korea, including its politics, economy, society, culture, science and technology, of course, including human rights.

And how many North Korean writers are you working with at the moment? Actually, we could work with any number of North Korean defectors because there is such a great pool of talented North Koreans here. But at the moment, we have about 10 people, and with about four or five people being our legal contributor. Right, are they all writing directly in English, or is this writing it in Korean and then being translated into English?

Some of them writing directly in English, and others are writing in Korean, they get translated. Okay, what do you hope to achieve with NK Insider? I think there are three things, largely three things I can think about. One, to amplify the voices of North Koreans, defectors and those inside North Korea. Two, number two, I think it's important to have an opportunity for North Korean defectors and those inside North Korea. Two, number two, I think it's important

to have opportunity for North Korean defectors to train themselves. Train themselves, I mean, in terms of improving their analytic skills, how to analyze the world events surrounding the Korea. And I think this is important because the law, important law they will play in the future Korea. Three, I think that by working closely

with the defective community, we are also closely interacting with those inside North Korea. So we want to also provide them the skills needed to understand all these issues critically. Now, you mentioned earlier that North Korean voices are underrepresented in discussion about North Korea. This week there was the Korea Global Forum here in Seoul. Did you attend?

I had the chance to attend that that but I watched it online. Okay now there's certainly been a lot of criticism both here on NK news and also in in Twitter and other spaces about the lack of female representation on the panels But what about North Korean voices were there North Korean voices represented? At the Korea Global Forum as much as you saw online? Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that I heard that criticism in regards to lack of diversity, gender diversity in that panel.

But I think that I saw there is a, you know, a healthy balance of a North Korean, you know, origin, the speakers as well. I think it's two to three North Korean defectors. Two or three. Yeah, that was, I think, I thought that was quite positive. Okay, but it could be more, couldn't it? Could be more, could be more because, but I think that there's a very positive direction.

I think in the past, I tend to see the laws what North Korean defectors could play was quite limited in certain aspects, like for instance, like providing testimonies about their life difficulties, challenges, right? But I wanted to see the more North Koreans at the table of a policy discussion and a strategic level, because this is important to include their voice.

So I think the part of the NK inside what NK try straight achieve is that to amplify North Koreans and how they view on number of issues affecting their homeland. And what's been the response from readers so far? A little bit of mix and the bad, let me start with the bad one first. I think apparently there is a number of actors

who do not really think positively of what we are doing. I think probably, I don't know, there's a lot of hacking attempts to our site, directed at our site. Do they want to change the material or do they want to bring down the website completely? Who knows? Because we are using strength in the defense, using various algorithms, but we see that number of attacks directed at our side. It's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot of people trying to access, have unauthorized access to our backend system.

Yeah, that's one aspect, it's quite notable. And the other aspect, I think the positive, I think that it's interesting. I mean, there is things that are happening on Korean Peninsula here and there, and a lot of experts and a lot of articles talking about this and that. But our articles, maybe sometimes overlapping, but none necessarily the same. So I think that in that regard, we take pride. And also, I think that some feedback I received they appreciate it because different perspective directly hearing from North Koreans. Right okay well good luck and keep going with that nkinsider.org. Thank you. Please advertise it.

We'll put the link in the show notes. Now the last thing I want to talk about is recently together with the Human Rights Foundation you had a call for proposals for funding opportunities To invite people to suggest ideas to improve North Korean human rights now that that round closed on August the 19th So unfortunately, nobody listening to this will be able to apply anymore. But just tell us what kind of Proposals were you hoping to achieve when you opened the funding opportunities? Yeah, I think that the Human Rights Foundation, as I alluded to in the earlier part of my story, HRF has provided and supported North Korean activists and organized North Korean issues for a number of years already. But I think part of that goal here, the providing grants to

an organization is to enhance the capacity of North Korean defectors because we think it's important to enhance North Korean defectors' status, their abilities to handle all these issues from their adaptability. Also, the issues like that in North Korea, improving North Korean situation, related to increasing information access in North Korea. And the other aspect is to help other organizations conduct, conducting accountability aspects, right? The collecting evidences of humanized violations in North Korea. Yeah, so those areas is something we had in mind to support. And what kind of proposals did you receive? As a great number of great applications.

Were they realistic? Some of them and yes, others not. But I think that most of them are the application. We still need to finish the review. But yeah, it's a lot of great ideas. And the ideas, we believe, have a good impact in terms of helping the public better understand the situation and also improving information access in North Korea. And how much funding is the Human Rights Foundation planning to give away to successful proposals? It'll be largely depends on the number of applications

we decided how many of them is viable from in terms of the feasibility and creativity and other factors. But yeah, we still need to decide on that. But just for reference, last year we provided over $100,000. In total to the different... Yeah. Now I know it's only been two weeks since the round of proposals were closed so when will the announcement be made about

who's successful? We announced it the final announcement will be made on November 30th. Okay. But it could be sooner. Okay, so sometime between now and the end of November. And will there be another call for proposals next year? Yes, it sort of supports the activists and provides them all the kind of resources they need and the trainings they need. So yeah, we are planning to continue support organizations in the next year as well.

Okay, great. Now what are your own goals for the next 12 months? Next 12 months? Yes. Um, good question. We have begun a number of works. Of course, the project that we are, the funding project, grant applications now we are receiving.

So we will need to help them achieve their goals steady to cause over the next 12 months and yeah also a lot of work the operating on news websites is the NK insider is not easy realizing a lot of work and I thought yeah yeah you could talk to Chad O'Carroll about that you should have a coffee and learn some technique skills. Exactly. Okay. So apart from the websites, which I've already mentioned there, flash drives for freedom.org and nkinsider.org. Is there another place where people can find you or follow you online? Are you on Twitter or Instagram or something like that? Yes, we have social media platforms for NK Insider on Twitter.

NK Insider on Twitter? LinkedIn and Facebook as well. Oh, good. I do have a personal Twitter account as well, the Songmin Lee NK. So, you know, there are many different ways to stay in touch. Many different channels. All right. Well, thank you once again, Songmin Lee, for coming on the NK News podcast today.

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