North Korea News Podcast by NK News - The status of North Korea’s foreign community, five years after pandemic began

Episode Date: December 31, 2024

The world has long since moved on from the closures and restrictions of the pandemic, but five years since the first COVID-19 outbreak in Wuhan, the patchy return of diplomatic missions and foreign aid organizations to Pyongyang shows that North Korea is still far from restoring the pre-2020 status quo. This week, NK News founder […]

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And I've got Chad O'Carroll on the episode. Chad, welcome back. Hi there. Good to see you. Now Chad, there's obviously been so much going on, which makes it hard to make this a very short episode, but I want to discuss two recent NK Pro stories that you've written, which are both important and timely, but also which will be revisited in the coming years. And the first one is called Where Things Stand with a Diplomatic Community in North Korea,

came out on December 10th. And the second one is From Aid to Academia, the Status of Foreign Organizations in North Korea came out on December 10th. And the second one is from Aid to Academia, the status of foreign organizations in North Korea. And we'll put a link that came on December the 13th. We'll put a link to both of those in the show notes. But basically, nearly five years after North Korea closed its doors due to COVID-19, as you write here, the landscape of foreign diplomatic missions in Pyongyang remains a mixed picture as the DPRK favors traditional partners and shuns others. So why do you think this is? Why are they shunning others?

I think it's probably down to a couple of reasons. Firstly, there is, I think, a concern from an information security perspective about the motivations of some of the diplomats that might be on the ground. You mean that would be concerns held by the Porwibu, the state security agency or ministry of North Korea? Okay. About some of those who were previously on the ground from more Western European countries,

perhaps that were, I mean, I remember the, like, just to give you an example on this the Germans I do remember about 15 years ago there was a goth the Institute go to Institute how do you say it Oh go to Institute yeah they had a library reading room with an internet access yeah that was briefly which was briefly available right now fast for 15 years later such a project would be absolutely unthinkable either on Kim Jong-un. Indeed, they closed the room and I think the books were either returned or given away or something.

Yeah. So I think part of it is down to concern about that. But I mean, that is writ large across the entire community. And I think that concern is more digestible and there's some flexibility on it when it comes to those countries where there is close ideological proximity or as we're seeing they are from this more like non-lined kind of block. Those countries also seem within favour. The second reason I think that we are seeing several key countries not able to go back. It's down to North Korean perceptions of those countries as having hostile

intentions towards the DPRK. I was with one source the other day who told me that the North Korean interlocutors were telling their government, their foreign ministry, you know why you can't come back. And when they asked to elaborate, apparently the North Koreans said, you know exactly why. Well, in that case, I don't want to spell it out, but I think you can see that some of these countries like the UK, France, Germany, they are advocates for re-imagined sanctions monitoring mechanisms.

In Germany's case, it's just joined UN command, so it's probably less neutrally seen as the North Koreans used to see it. We should point out to listeners that although France doesn't have diplomatic relations with North Korea, technically it has a development cooperation office that it ran in Pyongyang for many years, and North Korea has its UNESCO office in Paris. Yeah. So in short... De facto embassies.

Yeah. So in short, I think there's this bilateral grievance with certain countries, and they're just going to stretch them out at their return out as long as possible. And on the flip side, there's concern about, legitimate concern maybe from the security organs in North Korea about what those diplomats may or may not report back to headquarters and if that intel gets shared with like Five Eyes. Five Eyes, so they may be doing intel gathering. Okay, now why does this matter, the fact that so few embassies, and also we'll come to that later on, other agencies have been allowed to reopen?

Why does it matter? Well, I think it matters clearly from the outside world perspective in terms of there being far less eyes on the ground to observe what's going on. That means our understanding of what happens inside North Korea is severely diminished. The absence of channels for sharing feedback with the North Korean government on issues of mutual concern or issues that are potentially risking security or that are potentially risking security or you name it. I think having no direct channel for countries to engage the North Koreans on,

except maybe for an embassy in London or in Berlin, then there are questions as to how efficiently those messages get sent back to Pyongyang. I think that's problematic. I think from the North Korean perspective, it probably doesn't matter that much. It will only matter if their embassies get shut down overseas.

As a kind of reciprocal, well, if you won't let us reopen, then we'll shut you down in our country. Right, but this is a country that shut down what? 12 embassies last year by itself. Citing cost-cutting measures. Yeah, so they would probably like to keep certain embassies last year by itself. Citing cost cutting measures. Yeah. So I'd, you know, they would probably like to keep certain embassies open, right?

But at the end of the day, even if they did lose London, UNESCO in Paris, Berlin, Prague, FIA, Romania, I mean, is it the end of the world for them then it's not like they're doing trading with these countries. Yeah. Uh, there's no real consular work going on. The only area could potentially impact is their ability to secure luxury goods, but you know, UAE, the Middle East and Southeast Asia are perfect for that. China as well.

So I don't know if it, if it matters so much to the North Koreans. Oh, of course, if diplomacy renews with the Trump administration, it could be handy having some of those connections. But we also know that the White House is capable of communicating directly itself to Kim Jong-un if it needs. Yeah. Now, a thought just occurred to me that, you know, for years, America and some other countries refused to engage diplomatically

with North Korea because they said that that would be a rewarding bad behavior. And now it's almost like the script has flipped a little bit and North Korea is saying that, well, you know, we're not going to let you reopen your embassies here in our country because that would be rewarding bad behavior. Like to Germany joining the UN command or to Britain supporting sanctions. It feels a bit like that, sanctions that it, it, it feels a bit like that, doesn't it? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think the North Koreans have learned and they, and the truth is, it's, it's the case is that they are in the driving seat and the countries that are really keen to go back without being blocked right now. Uh, I think there is some state, some privilege and status they get from being able to say that they have an embassy in Pyongyang and that they're able to roam the streets of the capital and see what's going on in person. That's that's, you know, if you're a NATO country, like, like Sweden is becoming,

um, that's a valuable asset because you're the only NATO country there in North Korea. And Poland. Oh yeah, correct. Poland has gone back as well. And that's useful, I guess, for the UK. If it goes back, it would be the only finalized country there. And what does North Korea get in return? It gets to have a house in East London, sorry, West London.

And in Sweden, it has a small property. I don't know what they do there, but yeah, I think North Korea is accurately gauged that they, the foreign party often has more to gain from reopening. And so why not leverage that? Wasn't always that way though, right? In the early 2000s, North Korea was glad to have European countries open up embassies in Pyongyang. It gave them recognition. Before we go on to the list of countries, we've already mentioned a couple, but

obviously the big favored traditional partners are China and Russia, who never closed their embassies during COVID anyway. So what's their, their status and their, the size of their representation on the ground in North Korea. Well, I don't have numbers for you, but both have been able to rotate new staff in the Russians I'm aware of are able to freely come and go from North Korea to go like if they want to go on holiday during their free time to say Thailand, I've heard that they can actually go back to Vladivostok and then fly to Thailand, but that would require the UK can't get in at all. So from this we can clearly see that

there are policies that make no logical sense from a Vienna Convention sort of fair, equal rules for all diplomats perspective. Also Chinese and Russian business people and students have returned haven't they? Yeah, the thing with the Chinese Situation is that there is there've been a few reports about scholarship students going to North Korea to study from China and Business people like they're there being schools for Chinese China and business people like there, there being schools for Chinese children of long-term residents that the Chinese ambassador has toured. Is this the special huaguo school?

Yeah, one in Sinuiju and one in Pyongyang that's being reported on the Chinese embassy website. But yeah, it's hard to know how active that is compared to Russia because while there are the weekly flights from Beijing and Shenyang, it's hard to know without seeing the passenger manifest, whether this is many North Koreans or many Chinese, but we know there are many Russians because there are those data showing the numbers. Yeah, and Russian tourists, but not Chinese tourists. So that does appear to be a two tiertier system that obviously Russia's taking priority over

China. So let me ask you then for some quick comments about some of the countries. Tell us what their status is. You've already mentioned Sweden and Poland that they're in, that they've reopened their embassies. They've both expressed, well, they've both been very clear about their opposition to Russia's war on Ukraine. It's unusual for North Korea to welcome them back so eagerly, isn't it?

Especially Poland. I mean, that's a real head scratcher. Right. So what does North Korea get out of Poland being back? And Sweden, as a member of the NNSC, you know, on the demilitarized zone, but now being a member of NATO, I would have thought that North Korea would have been a bit hesitant about that. It could be that it's because Sweden has had that special relationship with the United States for so long. It sort of presents North Korea diplomatically in

Pyongyang. They might just think that could be a useful asset for Trump coming back, although it was decided before the election I believe. On Poland, well, on the one hand, yes, there is the clear friction between Poland and Russia, which you would think would play out into North Korea not being so welcoming of Poland. But there's also quite a lot of close history there in the relationship UN command Poland was one of the members alongside Czechoslovakia back in the day on the North Korean side of the armistice agreement. And then there were until even recently a couple of Polish firms that were operating

in Pyongyang and there was a lot of North Korean workers in Poland, I believe doing shipbuilding and that was not too long ago. So maybe it's a function of those factors that has resulted in this kind of accident. And you probably saw the Russian Ambassador, Maksa Gora, the Dean of the diplomatic community now that the Palestinian ambassador retired after many, many years, seemed to have hosted a diplomatic gathering. And notably there was Polish and Swedish presence at that. Uh, which is a surprise if you're living in Seoul, where there's a lot of, um,

there's a lot of performative diplomacy when Russians are in the room. Some EU diplomats don't want to be near them. Some won't come to events. Um, I think it's unfortunate, but you're saying that, you know, in Pyongyang, there's not much social life, so beggars can't be choosers, right? Yeah, maybe. I mean, I'm sure there's some reason for it.

But if people can do that in Pyongyang, they can do it in Seoul. All right. Let me ask you for some very brief comments on... I'm going to throw a country name at you and just give me a few words. Brazil? Brazil is back. It went back earlier this year. And that's one of those countries like Sweden and Poland that has embassies in both Koreas. Yep and it was recently on the Security

Council and is more, I would say, left-leaning in foreign policy, more pro-engagement than a lot of its peers on the Security Council at the time. And a member of BRICS. Yes, a member of BRICS as well. Cuba? Cuba's back. Yeah, it's been the ambassador's rotated, I think. That's interesting after normalizing relations with South Korea, right?

And with that defection of Ri In-gyu, is that what you know? Yeah. From North Korea, from Cuba. Surprising, I guess. Yeah, I think the ambassador, the Cuban ambassador left last year after many, many years. And I think the new one came in before the news of that dropped.

I think. OK, now, Germany, you said that they've joined the UNC, so they're being held at arms length. The UK, they did their, what, technical visit early this year, but weren't allowed back. Yeah. And they they were part of a group of countries that were rejected at the 11th hour from going, I think it was May last year. Made this year, I think. Sorry, yeah, it's still 2024. Apparently they even had the visas in hand, got all the way to the border and then were told not to come in. That's not very diplomatic. Yeah. Iran?

Iran is in. There was a change in, I think an arrival of an ambassador because the former ambassador left a couple of years ago if memory serves. Vietnam? Vietnam, the ambassador has been there through the pandemic. A big Taekwondo fan, you'll see him on Facebook training the North Korean Taekwondo specialists. Again another country with good relations with both Koreas. Yep. India? Again, another country with good relations with both Koreas. Yep. India. India's embassy has just reopened.

While I researched this article, I reached out to all the foreign ministries in India, surprised us and said that they had reactivated but not announced anything. And on the flip side, after that article got published, I got a Google alert from a Pakistani foreign ministry briefing where someone asked the foreign ministry what where someone asked the foreign ministry what the status was. And they said, they basically said there's no plans to open. So India's reopened but Pakistan has no plans. Yeah. But it said that we maintain diplomatic relations, but no active plans to reopen the

embassy. Now, how about Syria? Syria is an interesting one because the government collapsed yet their diplomats are still active in Pyongyang. I understand there are ministries, not just foreign ministry, but I believe many of the ministries in Damascus are kind of on hold right now, figuring out what the new government will do. And there's a question mark as to whether or not

the new government will leverage its existing personnel or do full debarthification in the way that we saw in Iraq, which I think is probably the less likely outcome. So those people will probably, my guess would be, continue to serve the new Syrian foreign ministry, but albeit with the pictures of Bashar al-Assad. Now this podcast, former guest ambassador Suleiman, long time resident of Pyongyang, he's back in Damascus now, isn't he?

That's right. So hello if you're listening, ambassador. Now moving on to the second story, there was just not embassies, but agencies. What about UN agencies? The UN agencies, none of them are back in Pyongyang. Have they asked? Yes, they've asked many times. They all claim to be active in the responses they sent to me, but that's based on the fact that their local staff are still working

in the capital. God knows what kind of oversight there is about how they work, what they do. But there's some quasi level of activity. There was, I think it was World Food Program that you might need to check. But if memory serves it was World Food Program's Chinese National Secretary General, I believe, that visited North Korea earlier this year. That was the only temporary visit by a foreign national of any of those UN agencies. I recall that. Now what about the Swiss Agency for Development and Cooperation, the STC?

They did a recce trip back in a a couple a few months ago. I heard they had some debts to pay and Apparently are considering if and how to reopen their mission there Hmm the the Red Cross both the ICRC and the IFRC have offices there and neither of foreign stuff In place and it seems there's no movement on that from what I gathered. POOST is an interesting one it's already reopened why does it get priority? That's a good question and I know I've heard that's the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology for our listeners. Yeah there's apparently foreign personnel have been given visas I mean I guess there is some value for North Korean students to have that foreign staff like professors who can help them with learning in a way that maybe is hard to replicate with strictly North Korean

professors especially maybe with language and but yeah it's yeah it's interesting one though isn't it technically an American organization? I know it has American stuff. I don't know if it's technically American. I think they, if memory serves, they were registered in China, but I may be wrong on that. Chawson exchange, they had a visit earlier this year. They had one visit and we don't know if there'll be more. I think they're still, they're actually active though, but we found out that their partner, the committee for

cultural exchanges has been disbanded. I thought it was just downgraded. Sorry, it may have been downgraded. From a committee to an association or something. Yeah, which we are waiting to see what that means. And what about other NGOs and humanitarian organizations? For the pretty much most part part none of them are active. I heard one rumor about one organization that I don't want to name because it's not, I

haven't corroborated it, but one that might be really on the brink of going back to Rasson for some something, but besides that no. Yeah so the pattern is when you zoom out is friendly and neutral kind of countries welcome back in limited form. The aid and NGO community pretty much not allowed whatsoever. But it's not like North Korea doesn't need the help. It still has problems there with agriculture and water and sanitation and hygiene and things like that.

It's not like they couldn't use those organizations. Yeah. And then tourism, we know it's just a tiny number of Russian tourists, I think less than a thousand. And today as we record this, the front page of Rodong Shinmun today was Kim Jong-un touring Wonsang Kalma Beach Resort and announcing it would open in June 2025. Goodness. So...

Did he say, did he happen to mention who would be there as guests? He mentioned it would be welcome to locals and foreign visitors. Wow. So that is really a strong indicator that tourism could be wider access this year, i.e. not just Russian, but with all that we've seen about this zigzagging level of access. And I think a key thing is who on earth is going to visit Wonsangkama at scale? It's not going to be Chinese, it's not going to be Russians, it's not going to be Westerners.

So is it even really in North Korea's interest from this security perspective that we start today's discussion from in letting visitors from countries that, where there's friction still with embassies reopening, i.e. the West. I'm kind of on the fence on that. And yeah, my prediction is that we're going to see a lot of buzz about tourism starting and then I think it's going to be a big disappointment at the 11th hour come April. Well, like we saw this year with the so-called reopening in December. Yeah. All right. Well, that's a good place to leave it there. Thanks, Chad, for walking us through

these stories. I encourage all our listeners who have NK Pro Access to go there and read both of the stories in full because they are fascinating. And we will be revisiting who's in and who's out in the coming year or years. Again, last day of the year. Thanks, Chad, and happy New Year. We'll see you in 2025. Happy New Year. Score more for less with our NK News Shop discount campaign. Ready to upgrade your wardrobe with some unique flair?

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Thank you and listen again next time. Thanks for watching!