North Korea News Podcast by NK News - The surprising similarities between North Korea and Taiwan – Ep. 343

Episode Date: May 22, 2024

Former South Korean President Moon Jae-in released a lengthy memoir this week focusing on his foreign and defense policies and diplomacy with North Korea. NK News News Trainee Joe Smith shares what Moon revealed in his new book, as well as why two more World Cup qualifiers have been relocated from Pyongyang and North Korea’s […]

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welcome. Hello there. Hi, let's start with the recently published biography of former South Korean President Moon Jae-in that's come out. I haven't read it yet, have you? I haven't, but I've read the NK News story about it and got some updates along the way. Excellent. All right, so tell us what is the juicy bits related to North Korea that have come out of this biography? Okay, well, there's a few bits. There's Moon saying that Kim Jong-un repeatedly and desperately, in quotes, had no intention, has no intention of using nuclear weapons.

That's one of the little interesting bits. No intention of using them. What about his intention to either keep them or trade them away or give them up? Well, okay, so another thing he did say, Moon said in the book, Kim Jong-un was frustrated at the lack of trust from the international community over his commitment

to denuclearize. So, as well, maybe this comes into it, is Moon Jae-in mentions, John Bolton mentioning the Libyan model. Yes. He said it made him angry, but then at the same time... Made Moon angry or made Kim angry? Made Moon angry.

Oh, I see. I'm sure it made Kim angry too, to be honest. But, I mean, there's a part of me that thinks, well, the international community may not trust him because, you know, Gaddafi got rid of his nuclear weapons program, was later toppled. Right. I'm pretty sure Kim Jong-un has learned that lesson.

Yeah. I guess the fundamental question at the heart here is, is Moon remembering things correctly? And then if he is, was Kim Jong-un being fully honest with him? Was he playing with his cards close to his chest or was he showing his cards face up? Yeah. I mean, there are a few variables here, I guess.

I mean, Moon Jae-in could be lying as well. That's the other thing. That's also possible. Okay, so there are three up. Yeah, I mean, there are a few variables here, I guess. I mean, Moon Jae-in could be lying as well. That's the other thing. That's also possible. Okay, so there are three possibilities. Yeah. Kim could have misspoke. What's your take on it so far? Just having read the article, I mean, does it...

I realize Moon is getting a lot of criticism from this, from lawmakers. However, I kind of tend to agree with them. I mean, it seems pretty silly. Some of the stuff that Kim has suggested, like apparently he wanted to go on a KTX train. That was one of the... Into South Korea.

Well, in South Korea, go on a KTX train. This isn't actually mentioned in the NK News article, but this is what I've been told. And the other thing was visiting Yongpyongdo Island. That was, of course, shelled by North Korea. Yes, in 2010, November 2010. Did he mention this to Moon at the first Panmunjom summit or one of the subsequent meetings? I'm not

sure when this was mentioned. Okay, but he did say directly to former President Moon Jae-in. Yes. Wow. And the idea of him going to Yongpyongdo Island sounds crazy. And a lot of people sort of like, I don't know how true this is. I never quite believe this, but a lot of people have said, oh, at the time, obviously, that was under Kim Jong-il.

But it was like Kim Jong-un calling the shots, as it were. That's how it was reported. Yeah. But I personally was never ever sure about that. It's a long way to Yeonpyeong-do from the mainland. You know, you've got to be on that ferry for a couple of hours. And I imagine that Kim Jong-un, like his father, Kim Jong-il, prefers to eschew plane travel. And I wonder how he feels about long ferry journeys in enemy territory. I can't imagine

he would feel much safer on a two to three hour ferry from Incheon to Yeonpyeong-do. He'd be much more comfortable on that KTX train. Well, that's right. Maybe he can get the KTX train bulletproofed. That's the other thing. That's a logistical nightmare. So what's been the initial reaction in South Korea to the publication of Moon's memoir or biography? I know lots of politicians on the other side

who criticized it and saying that he was naive for believing this from Kim Jong-un in the first place or showed that he was deluded that, I don't know, that he thought he could even get Kim Jong-un to denuclearize. That's been some of the response to this. Yeah, and that's a long-standing criticism that people have been saying, you know, anyway, that how can you trust the man who may or may not

have been behind the shelling of Yeonpyo-do, but has certainly said lots of intemperate things about what he would like to do to South Korea, as has his sister. So it is interesting that Moon comes away with it still. Is he still optimistic, or does he think that Kim has changed since Moon left office? I'm not too sure, to be honest, on that sense, I think, yes. I might have to wait until I've fully read the book. Right.

Well, let's talk about the international sport. We're talking about World Cup qualifiers. Once again, because earlier this year we had a match that was supposed to take place in Pyongyang with Japan. Of course. Journalists were supposed to be there. North Korea cancelled it. I guess it lost by default. I think that's how it works.

Yeah, I think they got fined around $11,000 from FIFA. And they, yeah, like a 3-0 forfeit, which severely… That's a big hit if it's 3-0. Yeah, and the thing is, well, North Korea are very good in Pyongyang. Even just getting draws, they rarely lose. And if they'd have gotten a draw against Japan instead of a 3-0 loss,

that would have significantly increased it. So what's coming up then in the World Cup qualifiers? It was June the 5th, they're playing a World Cup qualifier against Syria. And then on June the 11th against Myanmar, both were supposed to take place in North Korea. North ah north korea i think have already gone away to myanmar they beat them 6-1 okay and they went they couldn't go to syria because of the civil war so fifa moved that game to saudi arabia right north korea then went to saudi arabia and lost to syria

in this group stage of games so it's got japan atop the group yep uh syria currently in second then north korea and myanmar myanmar won't qualify they won't get anything out of this okay but it's really between north korea and syria north korea affected they need to win both the games they can beat myanmar they've already beaten myanmar 6-1 myanmar is probably not too much of an opponent but they haven't they actually have a good chance though i mean if they could have played syria in pyongyang and win then that that would just gives them a huge chance. And then Syria's next game is Japan.

Japan are expected to beat Syria. So then North Korea then could go through. So these matches in Pyongyang, are they still scheduled to happen or have they been moved to other locations? Yes. So I've been chasing this up for a while with the Asian Football Confederation, the AFC,

and they did, well, actually they didn't give much information, but I've recently found out from the Syrians that they've moved the game now to Laos. Okay, so the North Korean, the home game, which was supposed to be in Pyongyang, will now be in Laos. Yep, and I do have actually one contact in the Syrian Football Confederation, but he wouldn't tell me why on the record, why the game had been moved. AFC as well didn't respond

to any comments but there were reports in the syrian media that syria had actually even asked the afc to move the game from pyongyang to a neutral venue sort of like reciprocally doing what they did so north korea couldn't go to damascus right move again with saudi arabia so now this game has been moved to Laos. Whether it's actually for those reasons, I'm sure AFC are a little bit tired and fed up. The Asian Football Confederation? Asian Football Confederation, yeah. I'm sure they're a bit fed up

of constantly rearranging these games and the lack of communication with North Korea, which has led to multiple games being moved from North Korea end of last year and this year. Yeah, it is interesting that it looks like it was Syria that was making the request here to move to Laos. That's what the Syrian media, like these sort of pro-regime, pro-Assad outlets were saying.

Okay, and the match with Myanmar? That's also, we only found out this morning because the AFC didn't reply to any of my emails or on the phone, but they put on their website this morning or i saw it this morning that the venue has at least been put to laos so officially on the website it says laos for now for both matches yeah the laos national stadium now this does remind me of the uh the qualifying matches for the 1966 world cup that of course took place in great britain yep uh where

north korea and australia were to play against each each other. But Australia wouldn't go to Pyongyang. They didn't have diplomatic relations at that time. And I believe they played it in Cambodia as it was kind of neutral ground, friendly to both. Ah, good memory. Yeah. All right. A third story then, Joe. I understand that Marx and Lenin are on display once again for the first time in many years in Pyongyang.

Yeah. Well, this caught the attention of quite a lot of us at NK News when we saw the images and the Rangshinmen. Because they were removed from the Korean Workers' Party headquarters building on Kim Il-sung Square, what, about a decade ago? Yeah, it was 2012, I believe, was the last picture that we have of them being there at NK News. Or we believe anyway that that was when they got taken down. And yeah, again, interesting one. A few theories of why this is. at NKNU's or we believe anyway that that was when they got taken down and yeah again

interesting one a few theories of why this is just to be clear actually for our listeners they were placed at a central cadres training school

for the workers party of Korea so Kim Jong-un visited this new building this new site that's what is all pictured and then just in the background

you can see these two portraits they look like the identical portraits that were in Kim Il-sung's square maybe someone just had them in their basement or something and just said, right, stick them up here. Because further to that, the term socialism, as I recall,

was removed from the North Korean constitution. So it's interesting to see this reappearance of Marx and Lenin. I thought it was communism. I thought the word that was removed. Okay, we have to check that one. Yeah, I'll check. Because I know socialism has been used relatively recently. And even the word communism, though, a case in a article reported rather on the youth in North Korea back in 2021.

And they said that the ideals that young people should have should be like communist traits. There's a quote there, communist traits. You are right that it was the word communism was scrapped from the constitution over a decade ago, calling the guiding ideology Kim Il-sungism, Kim Jong-ilism. So yeah, it's an interesting development. It's kind of retrograde going backwards here. What does it mean? People have many sort of different theories on this.

I mean, some people have said maybe it's just like sort of teach young people that kind of like sort of more socialist communist history. I'm not sure about that. There's also like further cementing possibly the relationship with russia by sort of showing appreciation for a former soviet leader and a and a hero of that philosophy in marx i don't know these are a few of the theories that have been sort of banded around does putin talk about marx and lenin much i don't believe so i don't believe he's particularly a fan of either of them really and marx of, of course, wasn't himself Russian.

He was German. Oh, in fact, I've got something for you. So I've got a quote here from Fyodor Tertitsky, just to answer my own question. Putin has never shown much interest in Marx and apparently dislikes Lenin and decision makers in Pyongyang are no fools after all. So it does make me wonder what the point of all this is. Why would they not simply put up photographs of Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il? I remember Taehyung Ho actually. He wrote in his book as well, his memoir, apparently the decision to remove them coincided with Kim Il-sung's 100th birth anniversary,

which was also in 2012. That was, yeah. That's right. That was supposed to be the year of the, what do they call it, the opening of the great door or something, the year of becoming a strong and prosperous nation. So that's funny that here we are 12 years later, and they're once again shown in public. Let's keep an eye on that and see if it grows into something more. All right. And lastly, quick story on the ballistic missiles that were launched last week, Joe. missiles that were launched last week, Joe? Yeah, so North Korea attacked a ballistic missile system off its east coast. This was on Friday. We all got

the alert while we were here at work. It would have been near Wonsan. From what I last heard, there wasn't much reporting from the Japanese on this. We usually get information on the coordinates, how far it's flown, you know, from the Japanese side and the South Korean side, whereas only South Korea certainly immediately updated

on what was... The type of missile yeah type of missile yeah number of projectiles a final question for you then joe so yesterday the uh it was announced that the president of iran had been killed in a helicopter crash now iran and north korea have good relations i imagine that that north korea would do some kind of will send some kind of a message of condolences i understand you're working on that story right now so give us us a bit of a teaser of what's coming up. Yeah, I am. So it's written on the front page, actually, of the Roland Shinman this morning.

This is on Tuesday. Yeah, Kim Jong-un obviously saying, yeah, deeply saddened by the shocking news. This was written to the vice, the first vice president of the Islamic Republic of Iran. I'm not sure, I fully had to pronounce his name, Mohammed Mokbar. I mean not sure, I fully had to pronounce his name, Mohammed Mokba. I mean, it's actually quite usual

for them to send sort of like kind of procedural correspondence to each other on national holidays, things like that, when there's celebrations. Kim Jong-un's already written one condolence message to Iran for a terrorist attack

that happened there in January. So this is sort of, yeah, somewhat normal. Rodan Shimon as well also posts these letters from Kim Jong-un on the front of their paper so it's par for the course

well interesting to see if they send a delegation to the funeral whenever that is alright thanks very much for coming on the show today Joe thank you very much Jack get to the core of Korean insights with Korea pros Thank you. drinks and more. Engage in deep discussions on political, economic and social issues at special

venues across Seoul. From dinners with CareerPro editors to insightful conversations with renowned guests, each event promises a unique blend of expertise and networking. Immerse yourself in the pulse of career. Register now at events.koreapro.org. journalist based in Seoul, Korea. He's been here for a number of years. He's a freelance journalist, but he works for, amongst others, TVBS and Taiwan's public television service. Welcome on the show, Chen Hao. Hello, Jekyll. Hello, everyone. It's good to be here. It's great to have you. I think you're the first Taiwanese person to come on the show. So recently, South Korea had National Assembly elections in the middle of April. Now, a few months ago, Taiwan had presidential elections. You were there. You saw it happening on the ground. It's well known that the government in Beijing tried to influence

the Taiwanese elections. Did you see any signs that North Korea tried to influence elections here in South Korea in a similar way to what the Beijing government was doing in Taiwan? Apparently, I can directly tell you that the answer is no, but indeed it's very complicated. When you look at the influence from China, first, there is military threats, right? Which exists clearly, everybody can see it. And also there is like cognitive warfare, so-called information war or influence operation. Psychological warfare. Right, right. Which you won't see the Beijing authority mentioning it directly, but indeed, you might be able to feel it or find it on Media, especially through the internet if you are sensitive enough

For example, you know most of the Taiwanese have negative attitude to a China Most of us think that we are Taiwanese instead of Chinese. Most of us might choose to maintain the status quo or even independence might choose to maintain the status quo or even independence instead of being unified with China. You say most, so more than 50% of Taiwanese people feel a very strong difference. Yeah, at least status quo instead of unified with China. But you can find that even with this kind of ideology, there are some gradual changes, especially among the young generation in recent years.

Nowadays, more and more people, young people, they are using the Chinese social media platform, Douyin, so-called TikTok, right? Right. So China's version of TikTok, owned by ByteDance. Yeah. And another service called Xiaohongshu, which means the little red book, instead of the traditional news outlets or the portal sites. Now there's young people that are relying on Douyin or Xiaohongshu getting news or any

kind of information. Well, this sounds like an opportunity for the Chinese government. Yes, because of its algorithm, those short video posts criticizing on the ruling party or the Tsai Ing-wen government easily come out along with many edited videos mixed up with fake news or untrue accusations, also praising China authorities. So the young generation, they are being exposed in this kind of environment and they are easily accepting this kind of contents without confirming them. So not only in Douyin and Xiaohongshu, but also on Facebook and on Instagram and on YouTube, tons of fake accounts are producing same kinds of videos or comments. And if you track those users or accounts, many of them have no profile photos and they can only follow, they even only follow the same kind of accounts, which become a group or a community.

of accounts which become a group or a community. Looking at the Korean situation, that sounds very different because, I mean, we know until January this year, North Korea had some websites where they were targeting people in South Korea, but apparently those websites were not very successful because North Korea took them down, and I don't think it really had a big impact here. There's not a lot of North Korean content on YouTube or TikTok, a little bit, but not too much. It's certainly not like in Taiwan trying to do the psychological warfare. Yes. So it feels very, very different here that there really isn't much influence or attempted influence by North Korea on the South Korean population.

Yeah. Here in South Korea, most of the North Korean websites are being banned, right? Right. Not in Taiwan. Banned from South Korea. Ah, okay. So in Taiwan, there is no ban on mainland China. So you can freely look at a Chinese website,

Chinese social media, Chinese TV. Yes. All of this is completely legal, which is totally different to the Korean situation in South Korea because under the 1949 National Security Act, it's illegal to look at things that praise the regime of North Korea. Very, very different. Wow.

Okay. And I don't think North Korea has that kind of ability to do those information work. But why not? Why can't they just copy what China's doing? Yeah, because if you want to do that, you need to trap those audiences or readers into another better choice. For example, for China,

you are able to have propaganda saying that, oh, the Taiwan government is so bad, but China is good, it's strong, its market is so big, so large. If you listen to China, you'll get chances to make money doing business. China is able to do that, but I don't think North Korea has that kind of temptation.

So the economic, okay, that's very different. Now, a quick practical question here. In China, they use the simplified characters. In Taiwan, do you still use the traditional Chinese characters? So if China is trying to influence young people in Taiwan, are they having to learn traditional characters and type everything in traditional Chinese? Or do Taiwanese people just read the simplified characters?

Indeed, we can easily just read those simplified Chinese characters without any problem. But you will know, oh, that's simplified, that's from mainland China. Right, but if you look at those, we call them internet troops from China, they are typing traditional Chinese characters, but their words are very Chinese style. So the characters are traditional, but the vocabulary choice sounds like mainland Chinese.

Right. So you can still tell, oh, that's from mainland China. Right. Interesting. Okay. Now, have you visited North Korea? No, never.

And if the only way going to North Korea is through China, then I don't think I will be able to go because probably I'm going to be blocked or banned when arriving in China. I see. But you do write new stories about North Korea for your audience in Taiwan, don't you? Right. What kind of stories do Taiwanese people find interesting related to North Korea? people find interesting related to North Korea. Indeed, when I began my career 12 years ago, I've interviewed several North Korean defectors, including one who had experienced being repatriated to North Korea and stayed in a labor camp for a while, then successfully escaped to

China and South Korea after being released. I focused covering North Korean human rights issues for several years and even got a journalism award. Also, I've introduced and imported some books related to North Korea, and they are being translated into Mandarin and published in Taiwan and Hong Kong. Is there a big audience for that in Taiwan? Right, right, such as the Kang Cheol-hwan story, the aquariums of Pyongyang,

and a Japanese book of the modern history of North Korea written by Professor Wada Haruki from Tokyo University. Yeah, I've read that too. And answering your second question, Taiwanese people are curious about everything in North Korea. That's also why I decided to interview North Korean defectors because it's a country close to us, speaking Korean, but very mysterious and so isolated. I was doing puzzles to see if I'm able to get the full picture of North Korea.

But I think this is very difficult. I can imagine. Now, what are some similarities and differences between the China-Taiwan relationship on the one hand and North Korea and South Korea's relationship on the other hand? What have you observed? It's kind of similar to Taiwan in some extent. The relations differ from the government based on this ideology. to Taiwan in some extent, the relations differs from the government based on this

ideology. In South Korea, when the conservative party holds power, it becomes like more tight and tension and more can I say hardcore? And both the regime will criticize on each other and the military exercise in South Korea and the missile test

or even nuclear test in North Korea will become frequent. And when the liberals or so-called the progressive are in office, the tensions are going to be decreased in some extent and more mutual visiting or interactions, even summits can be held. And the same here in Taiwan, when the pro-Chinese Kuomintang, the KMT, takes power, more dialogues, more interactions. Even Chinese students were able to come to Taiwan to study. Right, that's another big difference.

Mainland Chinese students come to Taiwan to study in Taiwanese universities. Yes. Do they all go back after finishing the university? Sure, yeah. So they don't stay, they don't defect to Taiwan. They go back, but with Taiwanese education. Yeah, when I was in university, there was Kuomintang host power. There were like three or four

Chinese exchange students in my class. Now, what about the other way? Are there Taiwanese students who go to mainland China? Oh, a lot too. Okay, so that is so different from the Korean situation. But something that really interests me, you just mentioned there that the Kuomintang now is the pro-China

party. Yeah. But, of course, the Kuomintang now is the pro-China party. But, of course, historically Kuomintang was the party of Yang Kaisheng? Yes. It was extremely anti-communism until the end of the 90s. How did this happen that the Kuomintang, the conservative party, the party that broke away from, you know,

the renegade party that broke away from China, how did that become the pro-China party? They were the party which has been defeated by the communists and escaped to Taiwan during 1949. But after like... Chiang Kai-shek, I'm sorry, I got his name wrong. Right, Chiang Kai-shek or Zhang Zhongzheng. And after China have reformed and opened this market in 1980s,

many Taiwanese businessmen, especially those who had relatives in mainland, they began to go to China and do business and it has made like Kuomintang become more

close with its benefits because many people, many of its supporters or relatives are just doing business there. So they are trying to revise or change their position from anti-China to pro-China. So it's kind of a combination of business interests, but also... And nationalism. And family reunions.

Right. But when you say nationalism, you mean kind of a pan-China nationalism, right? We are all Chinese and we need to get together. Is that the nationalism that also extends to, for example, ethnic Chinese people living in Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia? Is that kind of pan-China nationalism in that way, or is it just a Taiwan-China nationalism? No, no, no. I think it's the former one. Okay. So it's a really big embracing all the ethnic Chinese. Okay. Wow. Now, as a Taiwanese journalist working here,

of course, you remember that in 1992, Korea changed its China policy and recognized the People's Republic of China as the only true China. And ever since 1992, there has not been a proper Taiwanese embassy here. There is a liaison office or a business office or something like that, but it's not proper embassy.

So what do you, as a Chinese journalist, what do you notice most about, what's the most salient thing to you about North-South Korea relations? As a journalist here, when observing the South and North Korean relations. We have that very similar, indeed, it's a very similar part. It is like, let me think about it.

Does it seem strange to you that you cannot look at a North Korean website here, but in Taiwan you can easily look at a Chinese website? The only different part is the admit of the regime. Both Pyongyang and Seoul, they recognize each other as a state or nation. Though North Korea always calls the South as the puppet of the United States imperialism. And the constitution of both countries claims all of the Korean peninsula as their territory. And so does Taiwan and China. Right. But at least you can see North and South are in a fair or being treated in an equal situation when negotiating politically.

That's why you can see during the summit when Kim Jong-un met Moon Jae-in, you can see Moon Jae-in called Kim Jong-un as which means Mr. Chairman. Yes. And also Kim Jong-un called Moon Jae-in, which means Mr. Chairman. And also, Kim Jong-un called Moon Jae-in as 대통령您, which means Mr. President. But things are different here.

People's Republic of China, the Beijing regime, doesn't recognize Taiwan, whether it's called Taiwan or Republic of China. They just don't pay the piece of shit on it. They only regard Taiwan as one of its provinces. One China policy, you're another country, you are mine, and all of you belong to me. No doubt and no discussion. It's kind of like an abusive relationship, isn't it?

So you're saying that the inter-Korean relationship, it seems more symmetrical, that they're kind of on the same level, but in China, there's a real imbalance between the economic and the size and the military power of the People's Republic of China compared to the Republic of China or Taiwan. Even from 2008 to 2016, when the pro-Chinese KMT ruled in Taiwan, the president, Ma Ying-jeou, met President Xi Jinping in 2015 in Singapore at the summit. When he was president? Yes. They are calling each other like Mr. Ma and Mr. Xi instead of... They don't use titles.

They don't use the Mr. President when meeting in Singapore. How was that summit in 2015? I mean, what was the outcome of it? Like people, they... Some people, they expect that Ma can be more strong and trying to show that Taiwan is real We're like even if it's not the nation it should be fair with China Right, but but he didn't and also he visit China like two and three weeks ago

Yeah, I was about to ask about it. So the former president helped me. His name is Ma Jingjiao Right. He visited Beijing to meet Xi Jinping again. Now in this case, he's not meeting him as president of Taiwan. He's just meeting him as a former president, as a private citizen. But this is, of course, something that would be illegal under South Korean law, that you couldn't have a private citizen of South Korea traveling to Pyongyang without permission of the South Korean government to meet with Kim Jong-un. So was this something that's okay in Taiwan? What happened when Ma Ying-jeou came back to Taiwan?

Were there any negative consequences for him? No. If you're talking about the former president, we do have a National Security Information Protection Act, which regulates and limited the former president's abroad visit in the first three years after he or she leaves the office. Once the former president is planning to go to other countries, including China or Hong Kong, he or she will need to obtain the permission from the government.

And indeed, after former President Ma left office in 2016, he planned to visit Hong Kong but was being rejected by the Taiwan government. And as I just mentioned, it was three years, the first three years. But then the ruling party controlled the legislative wing, which is the National Assembly of Taiwan, revised the law, and it has been expanded to six years to special cases if needed. So all of this came to last year, which the six-year limitation and also the pandemic are finally gone, which made former President Mao finally able to go to China and wouldn't face any legal problems.

But what was he trying to do there while he was meeting with Xi Jinping in Beijing? Was he trying to make some kind of a deal? No, he can't because he's already the former president because he can't make any decisions even meeting with President Xi. So what do you think the purpose of the meeting was? I think it's a chance to show his desire of the big pan-Chinese nationalism and also try to treat the ruling party showing that I am able to meet Chinese, but you can't, so deal with me and deal with China.

And for Xi Jinping, what does he gain from that kind of a meeting? Meeting a private citizen, a former president of Taiwan, what's the gain for Xi Jinping? The same as like nationalism trying to show to Taiwanese that if you listen to us, we can have dialogues, we can sit together and meet. But if you don't accept the one China policy, there's no space to talk. Now, I understand also that not just Meng Jingzhao, but also 17 legislators, members of the opposition party, visited China very recently. What were they trying to do as lawmakers? Are they not covered by the Taiwanese law?

That is a problem. Are they not covered by the Taiwanese law? That is a problem. Indeed, like 17 legislators in KMT, they are charging nearly one third of the seats, which KMT gained in the legislative year this time, in this election. They have met the chairman of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference

and other officials from the government. That does cause some controversies. The government employees and officials, employees and officials, they will need to get the permission from the government before visiting China. I just mentioned that. So did they? No, because they are not. Think about it.

Those legislators, they will have those, especially for those who are staying in the foreign and national defense committee inside the parliament, they will have power to obtain and read those confidential, those secret documents, right? But legislators are not being regulated by the National Security Information Protection Act. So the ruling party, the current ruling party, the DPP, the Democratic Progressive Party, intend to revise it and try to put the legislator also put into the regulations, but it was being boycotted by the KMT.

By the opposition party, right. So I imagine then that there was some strong criticism of these 17 legislators when they came back? Right. Yeah. Because people are criticizing and blaming how... Also, there was a big earthquake happened in Taiwan. So people are criticizing that you're not trying to deal with the earthquake, but you're going to China and trying to have talks with the Chinese officials. That doesn't make sense. Right, right. Okay, Chen Hao, sometimes both Taipei and Seoul are threatened by Beijing and Pyongyang with sort of military action.

And at times like that, it seems that people in both Seoul and Taipei, they don't seem to worry very much. But the international media, they always say, oh, there could be war in Taiwan or there could be war in South Korea. And they send a lot of journalists to cover that here. But you, I remember once recently, I think a year or two ago, there was some threats from Beijing to Taipei. And I said, how is it in Taiwan? And you shared me some pictures of what Taiwanese people are sharing on social media. And it had nothing to do with war. It was lots of what cute cat videos and funny filters and stickers and things. So why is it that people in Taiwan and people here in South Korea don't seem to worry too much?

Do you see any differences in how people react? Basically, there's no difference. Both Taiwan and South Korea have faced this kind of military threats from China and North Korea for such a long time. We already got used to it. We have already got used to it. Many kinds of threats from China are indeed increasing year by year. But nearly half of Taiwanese people, they think that there won't be any war with around 40% of the people thinking that the risks of war is still existing. Also, there are some, I should say, there are some

exaggeration effects made by the mainstream foreign media. For example, if the Chinese military aircrafts go over the Taiwan Strait medium line, or if China or North Korea has operated like missile tests, media kind of make it like looks very serious or such a big thing, making like, oh, the world is going to break out. But indeed, domestically, people here feel nothing unless there are really incidents causing severe contradictions or people die. But indeed, there are really incidents causing severe contradictions or people die. But indeed, there are still something different. For North Korea, I don't think invading the South will happen because they don't have enough petroleum.

Petroleum, right. Not to mention the strategic petroleum reserve using on war because North Korea has been sanctioned. The yearly amount of petroleum which North Korea imported is around 500,000 tons. Yes. Comparing to South Korea, it's like 130 million tons of petroleum with 13 million of strategic petroleum reserves. It is very clear that North Korea will have no ability to open hostilities for a long time war.

The only possible option that Pyongyang regime might choose is using nuclear weapons, which can achieve its goal immediately, but might also trigger the end of the regime itself. Well, let me ask you, Chen Hao, when did you first come to report here in South Korea? In 2010, when I was still a university student. Ah, okay. So you were here during the shelling of Yonpyeongdo. You remember that? I was in Taiwan.

I was in Taiwan during that time. Right. But that's the most tension period between the South and the North, with Chong An Ham and Yong Pyeong Do in 2010. So during that time that you've been in Korea, have you ever felt under threat? No, never. Is that because as a Taiwanese person, you've experienced the same thing?

Okay, interesting. Okay, Chen Hao, so let's talk about something that happened way back in the 1990s. I remember when I lived here in 1997 that there was a story widely reported in the international news media that Taiwan was trying to export some of its radioactive waste from its nuclear power plants in the island of Taiwan, and nobody wanted to buy it. But North Korea said, we will buy your waste. And this was a controversy because the South Koreans and the Americans were not happy about the idea of North Korea purchasing nuclear waste

from any country, let alone Taiwan, and so they intervened. And ultimately that deal didn't go through. But can you walk us through what actually was the reality? What was actually going on or what was planned to happen at that time? You know, Taiwan is a very small island, but we have like three nuclear power points. So it's always like very difficult to handle the nuclear waste. Where should we store that? So later, like the Thai power, the Taiwanese electricity company, Thai Power,

they have signed a contract with North Korea in the end of 1996 and the beginning of 1997. Because North Korea said to Thai Power that, oh, we have space for you to storage. Why don't you come and visit it? Yeah. So probably underground space because during that time no one knew about that. So then as I know, also I hear from some people who are related

who managed these things. So you've talked to some sources who were close to that deal. To the managers, right, during 1997. And they say that so Thai Power Company really sent some people

to Pyeongsan. It's at Hwanghae Bukdo. Okay, so it's Pyeongsan County in North Hwanghae Province. So it's south of Pyongyang, but not far from the demilitarized zone with South Korea. Right.

So they did visit the place and they thought that the place is okay, so the son signed a contract. And the contract was like Thai power will send about 60,000 barrels of those nuclear waste. From the power plants. From the power plant. And all of these nuclear wastes are very low-level radiation wastes.

Okay. Right. So these are not spent fuel rods. This is something else, like maybe dirty water or something like that. Those kind of things. And I think Thai Power Company, they might think that it's not a serious issue. Right, because we're not sending uranium or plutonium. Right, right.

It's low-level waste. It's're not sending uranium or plutonium. It's low-level waste. Low-level junk, right? Yeah. But very strange things like in the beginning, North Korea were asking that we want to see and we want to have the clothes, those wasting clothes. The protection suits. The protection suits. Right, which you wear any time you're in a nuclear power plant or handling nuclear materials. You wear the protection suit. suit. And North Korea said,

send us what? Send us the used suits? First, yeah. Okay. In the beginning. Right. After I heard that, I can't figure out what does that mean. Yeah. Because it's strange. If I were North Korea, I would just send us those

waste and we are going to research and we are going to give us the fuel rods. Right, right, right. But they asked the protection suits in the first. So me and my, what's that, the interviewees.

Okay, your interviewees. My resources. Ah, your resources. We are thinking that maybe North Korea is also worried that the United States might find it. So they decide to do it gradually, like step by step. Let's do it from the protection suits. Right. So North Korea was worried, if we get fuel rods from day one, then the United States will find out about it.

And they will say this is in breach of the 1994 agreed framework. So let's begin with something very simple like the disposable hazardous material suits. And then later on, if that works, we might ramp it up to something else. Yes, that's what we think. But later, still, the United States

and even South Korea, they found it. And even there's like very huge demonstration during 1997. People, they are gathering in front of the Taiwanese office, which is in front of the Tonghua Myeongsejong. It's in the Tonghua Myeongsejong. Yeah, here in Kwamon.

And they are burning the photo of the current president, Lee Teng-hui. Yeah, so it was a chaos indeed. And after it's been found, the Thai Power Company decided to cancel the plan. And later... So as far as you know,

no material was ever sent to Pyeongchang County. Right, right, right. And then what happened later? Yeah, so later, like several years later, like in the legislative... The legislators were asking what's the detail about that.

Yes. And the Thai power companies say that they, since it's just like canceled, they didn't pay the North Korea the compensation or anything. They didn't pay. They didn't pay the, right. Because if you sign the contract, but you didn't send that, it's actually, it's against. It's a breach of contract. Right, right.

It's against the contract. You need to have compensation or something. Thai power companies say that they didn't, they just didn't pay anything. Nothing happened. But as I know, that since the contraction, the fee was 5 million US dollars. So that was the purchase price of the was $5 million U.S.

So that was the purchase price of the radioactive. Right. Actually, that's not the right. So Taiwan was going to pay North Korea $5 million U.S. to receive the radioactive materials. Okay. Taiwan will pay for North Korea to receive. They will be able to store, right?

Right. Yeah. for North Korea to receive, they will be able to store, right? Right, the storage. Yeah, and my resource told me that, indeed, the Thai power company had paid the compensation around like 1.5 to 2 million US dollars. Wow, so North Korea still made some money out of it, even though it didn't end up receiving any radioactive waste from Taiwan.

Right, right, right. But I should say that this is like this happened so long time ago some things are maybe we can't make clarify or we may not have the evidence or documents to double check. Right, right.

So it might not be accurate. But the people you spoke to who are close to the deal they say this is correct. Right, they say this is correct. Right. They say that that happened before. Okay. Now, what's happened to Pyeongsan County since then? Because I believe that it is somehow important in North Korea's nuclear program now.

Right. So later, like after 2000, North Korea set up an uranium concentration plant just in Pyeongsan. And that's the place. concentration plant just in Pyeongsan. And that's the place, that is just the place, the county which the Thai power company planned to store the nuclear waste there. So later it become like concentration plant. So highly enriched uranium is now being made in the same county, which was going to receive the Taiwanese nuclear waste, but in the end it didn't. What has Taiwan done with its nuclear waste? Since it couldn't export it to North Korea, nobody else wants it. Do you know what Taiwan has done?

I don't know either. We have a small island in the southeastern part of the main island called Lanyu. There's a place where the aborigines are living. And the Thai Power Company, indeed, they built up a storage place to save those nuclear wastes. But I don't know those waste which we plan to store in North Korea

will later be sent to that place. Okay, wow, that's very interesting. Thank you for that. Let's move on to the next topic. Now, staying on that topic of Taiwan-North Korea relations, because it is interesting, isn't it, that Taiwan being a capitalist and democratic country was making a business relationship with North Korea relationship? Because it is interesting, isn't it, that Taiwan being a capitalist and democratic country was making a business relationship with North Korea,

which you would normally think that Taiwan and South Korea would do that, but because they, since 1992, that wasn't happening anymore. So what about an office? Did North Korea have a business office in Taipei? Yes, I need to tell you one thing, that in some extent, North Korea and Taiwan are very similar,pei? Yes. I need to tell you one thing that in some extent, North Korea and Taiwan are very similar, I should say.

Why is that? We are both isolated countries. North Korea isolated itself, making people unable to go outside or reach out any media outside the world. And Taiwan is not widely recognized, as you know, officially by the international society due to the pressure from China, making Taiwan himself unable to join many kinds of international

organizations. I think both at the time, both Taiwan and North Korea having this kind of intersection of finding kind of telepathy is around 1992 when South Korea attended to build up the formal diplomatic relationship with People's Republic of China, which made Taiwan and North Korea feel that we are both being betrayed by the long-term friend or ally. So before the relationship being settled up from 1991, I think the Pyongyang regime has already sensed that China will be closer to South Korea. The predecessor correspondent who had covered stories here

during the 80s and 90s told me some details that Pyongyang has also began to allow and invited Taiwanese businessmen to invest in North Korea. In the end of 1991, North Korea has already sent

a delegation group, including the vice prime minister I don't know if you know his name Kim Dae-hyun He was the vice prime minister Secretly visiting Taiwan Really? Yeah, they've signed an agreement

Inside the building in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Taipei And the purpose was to create business deals Right, and to mutually settle up the business office both in Pyongyang and Taipei. There's also one of my distant relatives who has invested producing the mineral water in North Korea at the same time. I remember he told me that the wage in North Korea is extremely low, but the infrastructure is even worse than Taiwan during the 50s or 60s. And they are always like a security guy monitoring you when you talk to North Korean people. And in the beginning, he thought that since China has already begun reform and opening up, so North Korea might begin reforming the same thing. So it's going to be worth it.

Right, that was the expectation in the early 1990s. Right, right, right. But later, he and many businessmen found out that it's still not an environment of rule of law, not because North Korea is not providing businessmen special preferential policies or measures when doing business. Also, there was even no chances getting legal consultations.

Legal consultations. Right, and any assistances from the government. So he gave up after one year in the end of 1992. So as far as you know, are there today any Taiwanese businesses operating in, well, okay, maybe not today. Not today. Until the pandemic, so until 2019, were there any Taiwanese businesses still operating? Before the sanctions in 2017.

Ah, okay. So before 2017. So tell us, what was the situation before those 2017 sanctions? After the breakup between Taiwan and South Korea, President Lee Teng-hui, who has passed away three or four years ago, he has sent Liu Tai-in, a very famous businessman. He was also the president of the Chinese Development and Industrial Bank. So he was sent to Pyongyang visiting. Kim Jong-il was with him discussing about the cooperation between the two countries, trying to attract more and more Taiwanese to invest in North Korea, even considering to obtain 200 million US dollars loans from Taiwan. Loans, okay. With mortage of North Korean coalery, the mild coals, the coalery, right?

The coal mines. Coal mines. But later, the United States has known it and asked the President Lee to stop cooperating with North Korea. As I know, the reason is that in 1993, the IAEA planned to have special investigation in Yongbyon. Inspections in Yongbyon. Right, in the nuclear facilities.

And then North Korea announced that we will just withdraw the NPT, which has triggered the United States a lot from North Korea. Right, it was the first North Korean nuclear crisis in 1994. Since then, the United States has been always monitoring any interactions between North Korea and other countries and always try to block others from cooperating with them. That's why the plan of mutually setting up the office has stopped for a while. And I should tell you, miraculously, we do have direct flight from Taipei to Pyongyang

from 1995 to 2002. Oh, okay. So for seven years, including during that period when there was a possibility that Taiwanese nuclear waste might be exported to North Korea. Since 1995, North Korea had begun to suffer from natural disasters. It was the period of the Arduous March. So I think North Korea might urgently need to make foreign currencies, like their forex, by tourism.

And after the Arduous March in 2003, North Korea eventually settled up an office in Taipei, even hiring a Taiwanese woman to handle the procedure of registration, also to arrange for North Korean officials to come to Taiwan. And after 2000, North Korea had shown some intentions

cooperating with Taiwan again on the segment of fishing and mining industry trying to obtain some resources from Taiwan. But in case of being founded by, being found by United States, everything would have to be done very secretly. But it is not easy. But the existence of the office,

that couldn't be a secret, could it? Everything is there. Yeah, so all of these things were revealed in 2017. So the office existence was secret for many years. Right, right. So the idea of both Taiwan and North Korea tried to hide the existence of this office from the United States for many years. Right, and during 2012, it was after the death of Kim Jong-il, right? Yes.

North Korea sent an official to Taiwan in the name of Vice Secretary of Foreign Chief, Vice Secretary of Foreign Business, Foreign, what's that? Oh, so External Economic Trade? Right, right, Trade. Vice Secretary that? Oh, so external economic trade? Right, trade. Vice Secretary of Foreign Trade, chief, trying to seek and convince Taiwanese businessmen or company to

invest. And it was the time when North Korea government decided to extend the compulsory education to 12 years. And so North Korea was lack of papers printing those textbooks or the teaching materials. So they were trying to convince a big Taiwanese paper-making company to not only sell papers, but also to set up factories in North Korea.

A paper-making factory. Right, right, in order to produce more papers. But coincidentally, in that year, it was 2012. Yes. The company was, there was like a conflagration, that big fire. A big fire. Happened in the company, causing huge damage. In Taiwan.

In Taiwan. So the investment was then stopped. And the woman, the woman in the office once revealed that to the media in 2018, that according to North Korea's plan, the amount of papers North Korea wanted to import from Taiwan charged around 10% of the company, which was kind of huge. But unfortunately, they were unable to make the deal. So North Korea would have been the biggest customer of this paper company. Right. But of course, because of the fire, it didn't go ahead. I'm curious, I mean, often we hear that North Korea wants to receive things for free, wants to receive

gifts and donations. But was North Korea in its business dealings with Taiwan, was it the intention of as far as you can see, was North Korea intending to pay for all these things? I don't have much details about that, but I can see that North Korea do want something free, but also they were trying to attract people to invest. So we can have mutual benefits together. Mutual benefits. And also North Korean officials had come to Taiwan again in 2015 and visited the CSC, the China Steel Corporation,

which is a state-run company in Taiwan. So the official was seeking cooperation with this company, asking them if it's available to import iron from North Korea. And then the CSC export the steel to North Korea, but still in vain. I think probably the CSC company feel risky, so didn't set the plan. And later after 2017, North Korea was being severely sanctioned by the International Society due to the second nuclear test. And the office in Taipei doesn't operate anymore. Now, in I think the year 2000,

the then richest man in China, the People's Republic of China, was a man named Yang Bin, who had lived in the Netherlands for some years and who had created a Dutch-looking town in China and was very rich from agriculture and flowers and things. He was chosen by Kim Jong-il to be a kind of… Chief official. Chief official of a free trade economic zone in the city of Shenzhou on the border, just across the river from Dandong. Yes.

But then he became a, well, he fell out of favor with the Chinese government. He went to jail for a number of years for tax evasion. And after he came out of jail, I read that he appeared in Taiwan. Yes. Giving a kind of presentation to potential Taiwanese investors to come to North Korea and invest there. Do you know anything about this? That was happening in 2018. So after the sanctions, the most serious sanctions.

But during that time, it was President Moon's time when he's in South Korea. So they are having summits and the relationship between the South and the North are being more better, right? So many Taiwanese businessmen, they are indeed seeking opportunities to go inside and to invest again. Even though many of their predecessors had left North Korea after failing,

and also the North Korean office in Taipei had closed in 2017. But now in 2018, because of the diplomacy between Moon Jae-in and Kim Jong-un, they were interested again. They were having hopes. And Yang Bin was part

of the promotional tour. And there is one guy who held a big ceremony dinner for Yang Bin. That was Liu Tai-in, which I've mentioned, who had been to Pyongyang meeting Kim Jong-il.

In the early 1991. 1992. Okay. So he's been interested for a long time in Taiwan-North Korea relations. Okay. Did any of this lead to any investment as far as you know? No, because later pandemics comes out and

also President Yun is being elected. So I don't think there are any opportunities for Taiwanese businessmen investing in North Korea. Okay. Now I understand that there are also some examples of North Korean laborers and medical interns who have come to Taiwan to work there, gain experience there. Tell us about that. Yeah. So according to my predecessor, who is a grandpa indeed. An earlier Taiwanese journalist in South Korea. Right, right.

He has known some Taiwanese investing North Korea, so he had told me some unknown details. Around 2007 and 2008, Kim Jong-il was widely known as being sick, of being sick. He had a stroke in 2008. Stroke, right. And in order to have precise body check for him,

North Korea has imported the MRI, the magnetic resonance imaging equipment from the German company Siemens. So the equipment had arrived in Pyongyang, but no one could assemble it to install it. Oh, I see. To install it. So North Korea contacted with Siemens and again asking them to send engineers to the staff to come and assemble it immediately because Kim Jong-il is very ill. And in the beginning, Siemens

replied that, oh, we are unable to directly send staff from Germany to there. And then after some discussions, Siemens finally decided to contact with their branch office in Taipei. In Taipei. So after the arrangement, there were engineers and surgeons and pharmacists and nurses. So it's a group.

Was it a large group? Yeah, a large group, like over 10 people being sent from Taipei to Pyongyang, including a pharmacist whom my predecessor knows. And the pharmacist is very large. From Taipei to Pyongyang, including a pharmacist who my predecessor knows. And the pharmacist is very kind. He has also prepared many kinds of medicine and brought them to North Korea mostly imported the medicine and injections, syringes from China, but many of them are in very bad quality, even with some medicine being found fake.

Oh, dear. Yeah, and they were very angry about that and very surprisingly found that Taiwan has such good quality of medicine and medical treatment skills, techniques. So they've decided to import those medicines from Taiwan. Since then, the pharmacist had arranged to export them to North Korea, which helped him make like $500,000 per year. Not a lot of money, but still some money.

Right, but he has made that for like three or four years. That's a lot indeed. And he has also revealed after that two, three or four years. That's a lot indeed. And he has also revealed after that North Koreans decided to send a team of like six surgeons to Taiwan for short-term training in a very big and famous hospital in Taipei. And they've also invited the doctors from that hospital to Pyongyang to help them training. And that was around 2014. Okay. Yeah. So as you can see, since Taiwan and North Korea are being isolated, the Pyongyang regime seems to know that the enemy's enemy can be my

friend. So tend to seek like some interactions or cooperations with Taiwan, though basically, we still regarded China as North Korea's biggest ally and partner. But I believe the Pyongyang regime has some doubts on Beijing. Thus, Taiwan will be a good choice for them to have risk diversification. Were there any non-medical laborers from North Korea who went to work in Taipei? For example, any builders or anything like that? No, but we do have laborers of fishing. So some North Korean fishermen

were joining Taiwanese fleets. Yeah, I remember it was in the end of 2017. Like 2017, NKDB, they revealed a list of companies around the world hiring North Korean laborers. And during that days, people paid the most attentions on those Russian and Eastern European companies hiring North Koreans, mainly doing lumbering, right?

Right, right, right. Wood cutting. And each company or country is hired around 20 or 30 laborers, as I remember. But according to the list, there are three Taiwanese fishing companies on the list. And they are hiring like 100 or 200 people. That's quite a lot. Large groups, yeah. So I tried to contact with these three companies through international phone calls.

The first one, after hearing me telling them that I'm a journalist, I heard the staff is like murmuring to each other, saying that, oh, he said he's a journalist. And then stop for three seconds and hang up my phone. And then so I called another second company, a guy, let's call him Mr. B. He answered my phone and he was speaking in a very hurry way, in a nervous way. I thought he was like driving or running

when answering my phone. And he emphasized to me that he doesn't hire North Koreans anymore. Everything has stopped in the beginning of 2017. That was like when the sanctions began. And then he complained to me that

North Koreans, their minds are so different from us, which is causing me trouble. So it's difficult to work with them. Right, and they are not cheap. They are not that cheap. Indeed, they are not that easy or good to use. That's what the company owner said to you.

Right, so I listened to the phone call record again last night after six years. Oh, gosh. I finally realized that he's kind of feeling nervous and trying to clarify that he doesn't feel, he doesn't hire anymore. So as far as you know, are there any North Koreans in Taiwan right now? I don't think so.

Oh, by the way, I need to tell you, I called another third company. Okay. Right. It's another, let's say, Mr. C. It's another fishing company. Right, right. Answering my call.

And he say that he's an agent. Yeah, chung geza. Ah, so he... He's like dealing agents, trying to introduce North Korean laborers to other companies. Right. And he's kind of nice and friendly, indeed,

revealing more details for me, saying that most of the Taiwanese fishing companies, they are hiring people from Southeast Asian countries, such as like Philippines or Indonesia. But around 2014, there are Chinese companies, they begin to introduce North Korean laborers to Taiwan. So many Taiwanese companies were thinking that, oh, maybe North Koreans work harder,

and maybe they can endure more difficult or severe working conditions. So they begin to hire them. And Taiwanese government knew that and had a regulation that once the ship finished fishing and stopped at any port outside, stopped at the port, any countries outside Taiwan,

those North Korean laborers would have to leave the ship instead of coming back to Taiwan by the ship, although the employers had to follow the rule. But after the sanctions in 2017, most of the companies had stopped hiring North Korean laborers. Only one or two were still hiring, but the numbers were below 10. Interesting. Okay.

Well, it'll be interesting to see if the relations change again now that the North Korean pandemic lockdown is over. Last question for you. Some people in South Korea are worried that Seoul might become involved in a military conflict over Taiwan in the future. If China makes a move on Taiwan, South Koreans are worried that South Korea might be involved.

What do you think about that? It's possible. I do think that the South Korean government needs to think about it. There are two things I need to mention. One is if China invades Taiwan, then should South Korea send the troops to help Taiwan? That is one thing.

And another thing, there are many South Koreans, especially journalists who are charging for the defense or foreign policies, they are indeed worrying that if China invades Taiwan, then in the meanwhile, North Korea might take some actions toward South Korea because the United States might not have any capacity to deal with the situation simultaneously. And two years ago, after President Moon was, President Yoon took office, right? In the press conference, I have asked a question to the very high-ranked officials in the presidential office. to the very high-ranked officials in the presidential office because he told us that South Korea is still not giving up having China as an option to change North Korea. So I asked him then if China invades Taiwan,

which position will South Korea choose? And he didn't answer my question directly. When you say which position, do you mean? Will South Korea support Taiwan or not support Taiwan? Right. So he didn't answer my question directly, but he mentioned to me that that is the worst situation which South Korea don't want to see. But if that happens, that the the resources transferring to South Korea, those natural resources, including petroleum

or other kinds of natural resources, will be blocked because all of those ships, they need to go through the Taiwan Strait. So if Taiwan Strait is being blocked by China, that will cause big trouble to South Korea. Economic damage, yeah. Wow. Okay, well, let's hope

that doesn't happen. Okay. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, thank you once again very much, Chen Hao, for coming on the NK News podcast today and sharing with us your insights as Taiwan's only journalist here in South Korea. Thank you. journalist here in South Korea. Thank you. that keep you ahead on Korean affairs. Plus, enjoy priority invites to our unique events in Seoul that connect you with key leaders and influencers. Elevate your understanding of Korea.

Join us today at koreapro.org slash podcast. Ladies and gentlemen, that brings us to the end of our podcast episode for today. Our thanks go to Brian Betts and Alana Hill for facilitating this episode and to our post-recording producer genius, Gabby Magnusson, who cuts out all the extraneous noises, awkward silences, bodily functions, and fixes the audio levels. Thank you.