North Korea News Podcast by NK News - Urs Gerber: Why inter-Korean relations are back to square one

Episode Date: November 28, 2024

On this week’s episode, retired Major General Urs Gerber joins the podcast to discuss the current state of inter-Korean relations and what has changed since he served as head of the Swiss Neutral Nations Supervisory Commission (NNSC) in Panmunjom a decade ago. He also talks about the changing role of the NNSC since its formation […]

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October 2024. And joining me in the studio today is Urs Gerber, who is a retired major general of the Swiss Army. He's also a historian who has worked in strategic intelligence from February 2012 to August 2017. He was head of the Swiss Neutral Nations Supervisory Commission delegation in Panmunjom. Urs, thanks for joining me on the show today. Thanks, Jack Koh, for having me. Now, Urs, you left Korea seven years ago, and since then, you've retired from your military career, but you keep coming back to Korea and you

keep being involved in Korea. What brings you back and what makes you stay involved? Well, I remember back in August 2017 when I had, and I stress when I had to leave Korea. So I went back home to Switzerland, but for me, Korea was sort of, was then and is still to a certain extent my second home. Wow, okay. So you say you had to leave in 2017 against your will because your time had run out and that's it? No, no, no, no. I was absolutely happy to leave the job because after a certain period of time you have to

quit. But to go back sort of from a highly developed, technologically very advanced country back to in that area, almost to middle ages, was not a sort of favored option. But when you are then back, it's fine. But whenever I land at Incheon Airport, aboard the bus or the metro, I immediately feel at home. Now, how do you assess the state of the Korean War armistice today compared to when you left it in August 2017 during the summer of fire and fury? Well, I have to say, unfortunately, we are back to square one. What do you mean by that?

You were mentioning when I left, it was fire and fury. I have the bigger bottle than you have. You get a bloody nose. So the tensions in 2017 were extremely high. I remember particularly the time when Park Geun-hye was in the impeachment process. South Korea had no elected president in charge. And as we all know, the prime minister, who is then a caretaker, has not all rights to go into decisions. So my feeling when I spoke to the military, but also political leadership, there was a certain anxiety that the

Americans, particularly the newly elected president in these days, President Trump back then, yeah. Yes, that was Donald J. Trump, that he would sort of do the same thing as he did in Syria and Afghanistan just in the early stages of his presidency. just in the early stages of his presidency. So people were a little bit afraid and the armistice, if I compare it, tensions were high because Kim Jong-un was still threatening the South towards the end of 17.

And now I'm back. And when I left, there was no CMA. Hmm. Comprehensive military agreement between North and South. Indeed, indeed. And I come back and I take note, okay, I knew it, but it's even worse. We were with the group yesterday up in Pumuljom, and then you hear explosions and you are told these are explosions where the North Koreans are severing streets, railroads and what else. So I think... The inter-Korean railroads and roads that had been built back in the early 2000s.

Yeah. So basically, what apparently seems to be in place is North Korea implements what their leader has said, meaning to build a border towards South Korea. And I think that's certainly in terms of tensions and of, and you asked me the state of the military armistice. It's one step further up or down. You can see it as you want. What did you understand about your mission when you first came to serve at the United Nations Supervisory Commission, Neutral Nations Supervisory Commission in Korea? Well, I had the luck that in my previous position as Deputy director of international relations, I was responsible in the Ministry of Defence in Switzerland for the NNSC back home, not in operational terms, but rather

in political terms. So I was in close contact with our foreign ministry, who actually is running the commission in terms of guidance, or not the commission, the Swiss delegation. This was half of the commission. Yeah, indeed. Because it's the Swiss and the Swedes. Absolutely.

Yes. So I was aware, let's say, on the political level, but then I had to get to know, and that was a coincidence to a certain extent, but then I had the chance really to implement it on the ground and to see what would that mean in military terms. So in terms of the environment, the context, I was very well prepared. But then when you come here and you have to interact with all your partners on different levels, then you start in some certain areas, you start from the scratch.

And so how quickly did you learn the rest of your role after arriving? I have to say very quickly, first of all, the interaction with our Swedish colleagues, and particularly the head of the Swedish delegation was very close. Has it always been that way? I mean, you're a historian. Good question. No. The answer is no. I think both sides would acknowledge that. There had been in the past, there had been, I would not say real tensions, but the interactions were much less close as they are today. Hmm. That's interesting. Yeah. Because, you know, as a, for me, as a neutral, neutral outsider, to a certain

extent, I and maybe some other people look at Sweden and Switzerland as almost being two sides of the same coin, that you're neutral, you're European, you weren't involved in the conflict. And so we just assumed that it would always be smooth sailing with the two of you. Well, it was plus minus smooth sailing for sure. But even if you look the same, okay, they have more blonde hair, maybe are two centimeters taller than us. But there are, we have many, in many areas, the same attitudes.

But the educational system, people are educated differently. Sweden is much more, there you feel for instance that Sweden, the education and the environment is slightly different. For instance, social security is different. They are minor things where if people come to Korea as member of the delegation, and they are not aware of that, they always think, okay, the Swedes, they look like us.

Okay, we speak in English. So everything's exactly the same. And it's very close, but in certain areas and in certain reactions to events and to whatever situations, they're behaving or they are taking a slightly different stand. But I have to say that particularly with our

expanded tasks, you might come to that later on, we had, and it was really a pleasure for both sides, I would stress that, we had the opportunity and pleasure to work together much more closely than in old days where basically the interaction was restricted to the official meetings of the different officers or the commission as a whole. And maybe from time to time that you would have a common meal when you have major delegations. And already in my time, we, okay, we were working separately,

but meals were taken at the same place, even at the same table. And the interaction was really very close. And just I heard yesterday from Pamu Djam that this has remained so also today. Because you're physically sharing one camp together, but you have different separate buildings, right? Yeah, actually, the camp, and as you have been up there, you might remember, there are sort of two small hills.

There is the Swiss hill, but you come up on the left-hand side. So the Swiss are closer to the MDL. And then on the right-hand side, there is the Swedish hill. In between the buildings, in between those are the common used buildings like the DFAC where you eat together, where the briefing rooms are and the storages are. So in the old days, the hills were the hills and there was less interaction and nowadays it's really close cooperation. Curious to hear the rest? Become an NK News member today for access to the full episode. Thank you.