North Korea News Podcast by NK News - Youngah Lee: Why a ‘peace regime’ must come before unification with North Korea

Episode Date: October 3, 2024

Youngah Lee of People’s Solidarity for Participatory Democracy (PSPD) joins the podcast to discuss the progressive civil society group’s advocacy for inter-Korean peace and restarting dialogue between Seoul and Pyongyang. The activist explains why she believes establishing a “peace regime” on the peninsula is the first step toward reunification and why the return of wartime […]

the Most listeners buying any two items from our t-shirt or hoodie collections will snag their third for half off. Whether you're eyeing our North Korea-themed gear for yourself or as gifts, now is the perfect time to act. Don't miss out. Head to shop.nknews.org and make the most of this limited time offer. That's shop.nknews.org. Hello listeners and welcome to the NK News Podcast. I'm your host, Jack Ozwetsu. This episode was recorded on Monday, the 9th of September, 2024.

Joining me here today in the NK News Studio is Yongha Lee, who is manager of the Center for Peace and Disarmament and the Center for International Solidarity at the South Korean Civil Society Group called People's Solidarity for Participatory Democracy or PSPD, which is one of the longest existing and best known civil society groups in Korea. You can find them online at peoplepower21.org or on Twitter at peoplepower21. Welcome on the show, Junga. Hi, nice to meet you. Okay, so let's start with the basics.

What is the People Solidarity for Participatory Democracy and what does it do? Actually, PSPD was founded in 1994 by activists, scholars and lawyers who are engaged in various democratic movements for participatory democracy and human rights. Since its foundation, PSPD has maintained its identity as a progressive civic movement and has been centered on progressive values. It has worked to improve institutions such as political and judicial reform and to expand the concept of rights,

including social rights, labor rights, and peace rights including social rights, labor rights, and peace rights and human rights. So PSPD has continued to work in solidarity with progressive and reformist civil societies. Specifically, PSPD has raised the issues such as ensuring freedom of expression and expanding suffrage, abolishing the national security law and death penalty, overcoming the divisive system through anti-war, anti-nuclear and peaceful disarmament and establishing peace in North East Asia.

Okay, so you've just said that PSPD is on the progressive side of Korean politics. Is PSPD aligned with any political party in Korea? Oh, no, no, no. We are independent from the political party. Okay. Generally speaking, do you agree with the stance of, I don't know, the Democratic Labor Party or the Minjoo Democratic Party? party? No, the PSPD is independent from the government and political party. That one is our vision. Okay. And what is the PSPD's policy stance on Korean unification? Even though the PSPD aims for unification, we do not advocate for unification movement. Of course, the PSPD aims for unification. We do not advocate for unification movement.

Of course, PSPD respects the national community unification formula, agreed upon by the two Koreas and inherited by successive governments over the past 30 years. You go back to the 1992 North-South Korea basic agreement. Yes, National Committee Unification Formula. Okay. Now you said your organization is not... It's in favor of unification, but you're not part of a unification movement. What do you mean by that? Yeah, actually in South Korean civil society, there are two groups about the divided unification movement and peace movement.

So I think the PSP, they belong to the peace movement more than a unification movement. And that means engagement with the government of North Korea, talking to the leadership in North Korea? When you say the peace movement, generally we think of, so there are some people in South Korea who don't want to engage with government of North Korea. Are you in favor of engagement with North Korea? Of course we are monitoring the policy of North Korean government, but we are PSPD and for unification. But first, for unification, the first step is that it establishes a peace

regime in Korean Peninsula. And how can we do that? So nowadays, actually the Korean War is not over for over 70 years. So the PSPD is calling for ending the Korean War and establish a peace regime on the Korean Peninsula. So nowadays we are decreased at the war crisis on the peninsula and restart the dialogue between the two Koreas. Does the PSPD believe that US troops must withdraw from South Korea in order for peace and prosperity to be created? Actually, in South Korean society, the US troops have become sanctuary.

According to the Article 4 of the ROK-US Mutual Defense Treaty, the US force Korea has now changed in character and has become a military that aims to contain China rather than maintain peace on the Korean Peninsula. The presence of USFK has also been an obstacle to transition from armistice to peace. Rather than campaigning for the withdrawal of US troops from South Korea, PSPD has focused on calling for the return of wartime operational control. This is because without the return of wartime control, there can be no democratic control over security policy or independent military strategy and military leadership of Korean

Peninsula will remain in the hands of the United States. After the return the wartime operational control, the ROK-US combined the first command should be dismantled and the ROK military should be able to command it alone. Now I understand that the wartime, the return of wartime operational control to the rock army This is something that has been planned for the last 20 years Will it happen soon? You know that the problem is the government decision actually the the moon administration At first the moon administration tried to return the wartime operation and control within

his administration. But the Moon administration agreed to renew the plan. So nowadays it is not easy to return soon, but I think the South Korean military is able to control during the wartime, operational control, I mean. So if I understand correctly, you're saying that South Korea has effective operational control in wartime. Yes, of course. Actually, we can remember the Nomuyeon administration, that time the US government and South Korean

government agreed to return the wartime operational control. That time the US is also was also thinking South Korean military, it was able to control by ourselves. Okay, so you think it's able to control by ourselves. Okay, so you think it's able to control? Yes. But does not yet have OPCON. Who does PSPD believe is responsible for military tensions on the Korean Peninsula rising? Actually, since the 2019 Hanoi summit, the relations between South and North Korea have deteriorated sharply.

Since 2022, DPRK nuclear and missile capabilities have been upgraded and missile tests and military drills have become more frequent. YUN administration, which has a focus on pith through strength, has a strength and extended deterrence and resume large-scale ROK and US combined military drills, and outdoor maneuvers and including landing drills. DPRK has also continued to test fire strategy cruise missile escalating military tensions on the Korean Peninsula. With the old channels of dialogue cut off and September 19 military agreement between two Koreas are suspended, the risk of existential crisis accidents and misjudgment leading to war is very high. But both South and North Korea have been increasing the intensified of their provocative rhetoric and military actions, threatening each other rather than engaging in dialogue.

I think ROK, DPRK, and US must stop military actions and threats that escalated the risk of war and urgently resume dialogue to prevent conflict and manage a crisis. Do you also believe that both sides should stop all military exercises? That one is I think it can be a first step to make environment for dialogue. But exercises are a kind of training. And if you are, let's say example, if you are an Olympic runner and you want to run in the Olympics,

before you go to the Olympics, you must train every day. Because if you don't train, you will not be a good runner at the Olympics. And isn't that a bit similar with the military? If the military does not do exercises with the military? If the military does not do exercises, the military doesn't train, then they cannot be ready to defend the country. Oh, but I agree with your opinion somehow. And I agree that Korean military exercise

is necessary sometimes. But the problem is the ROK-US joint military exercise is necessary sometimes. But the problem is ROK-US joint military exercises are one of the most representative policies of hostility toward the DPRK. Because the exercises include preemptive strike on the DPRK, reduction removal removal operation and deployment and reinforcement of large-scale US troops and strategic assaults in the event of all-out war. Is North Korea responsible for its own negative actions, for example, building nuclear weapons, building missiles, testing missiles, killing South Korean soldiers? Or are North Korea's actions merely understandable and justifiable reactions to the hostile situation that it faces?

I would like to stress the nuclear conflict on the Korean Peninsula has been ongoing for more than 70 years with an unstable armistice regime and arms race, with the military and economic power of the ROK and U.S. overriding spirit to the DPRK. The DPRK has developed asymmetric warfare capabilities, such as nuclear and missile capabilities, to overcome this. So the ROK annual military expenditure is 1.6 times the size of the DPRK entire GDP. The conventional forces of the ROK and US are of a rising spirit to those of DPRK. I think unless this situation changes, DPRK is unlikely to stop trying to compensate for these military disadvantages

with nuclear and missile capabilities. Okay, but in 2015, for example, two South Korean soldiers, they accidentally stood on a mine and one lost his leg and the other one lost a foot. When North Korea does something like that or shelling Yeonpyeongdo, is North Korea responsible? Can we blame North Korea? I think that we could not blame North Korea alone. I think that the responsibility of that kind of hostilities Belong to South and North Korea too. Okay now last year in December, Kim Jong-un, the leader of North Korea, he said, I'm not

interested in peaceful unification with South Korea anymore. South Korea is a separate country. It's an enemy country. We don't want to have peaceful unification with them. Does the PSPD think that the situation on the Korean Peninsula today is close to war? If so, what kind of decisions or events could lead to an outbreak of the war? Yes, actually the war crisis on the Korean Peninsula is very high. But I think the Korean Peninsula is a reason where armed conflict or war crisis could erupt at any time.

And the threat of a nuclear war is ever-present. But the risk of a nuclear war has never been higher than now. Because the old communications channels have been cut off. And prolonged confrontation between the two Koreas is taking place with No Way Out. As you know, the two Koreas have defined each other as enemies. Even the September 19 military agreement has been suspended. But the risk of accidental crosses, accidents and or misunderstanding the reading to war has increased dramatically. You just said that all the communications channels are cut off.

Now it's true that at the moment between North and South Korea, there are no communication channel, but there is still a communication channel between the North Korean army and the United Nations command in Panmunjom And they have a phone call every day to avoid war escalation but the problem is that the the communication channels between the North and South military they cut off all channels so we couldn't they cut off all channels so we couldn't communicate with North Korea in case of emergency situation. Right, but the United Nations command, they can communicate directly with North Korea. But the problem is that there is no direct channel between two Koreas.

Okay, so that's one thing, but there is some form of communication. And you mentioned before that the armistice is unstable, and I wonder why is the armistice unstable? For the last 75 years, we've had no war on the Korean Peninsula, so it seems pretty stable, more stable than Israel-Gaza, more stable than Afghanistan, more stable than even in Iraq. So why do you say the armistice is unstable? Because first one is there is no communication channels between two Koreas. This is the first time to during the longest case between two Koreas.

And the other one is the ROK and US military alliance and DPRK, they are conducting a military exercise in case of nuclear war. So in the Korean Peninsula. And the UN government the focus on the peace through the strength. So along the board, the residents along the borders, they were worried about the situation because the government didn't have any ways to solve that crisis. Last month in the news, we saw that Germany joins the United Nations Council. Now there are, I think, 17 different countries involved in the United Nations. Not just the USA, there's also Australia, Canada, Great Britain, the Netherlands, and now Germany,

which was surprising for some people. So it's quite an international group to try to stop the war from continuing in Korea. Doesn't that make it more stable and more unlikely that war will break out again? I don't agree. UNC is a role to maintain the peace on the Korean Peninsula. It's a revitalization of UNC is possible to increase the military tensions on the Peninsula.

Okay, now what is the PSPD's vision for peace between the two Koreas, North and South Korea? Concretely speaking, what would that look like? I would like to introduce the PSPD report. Actually, in 2011, PSPD released a report on a peace regime on the Korean Peninsula by citizens. The peace regime on the Korean Peninsula refers to a structure that can improve the quality of life or Korean Peninsula by institutionalizing sustainable peace on the Korean Peninsula. So it proposed based on principle of pacifism, South and North Korea and neighboring countries will start by observing and implementing the existing agreements. And for peaceful unification of two Koreas, peace regime on the Korean Peninsula will promote it

while complying with and developing, promoting international norms and based on participation of citizens. PSBD proposed five major tasks for establishment of a peace regime on the Korean Peninsula. First one is institutionalizing reconciliation and cooperation and forming a South and North Confederation, denuclearizing the Korean Peninsula and establishing peace agreement and reducing tensions and disarmament and strengthening peace cooperation diplomacy in Northeast Asia. And last one is institutionalization of a

democratic reform of a security organization and civic participation. Okay, I'm very fascinated by the idea of a confederation or a federation between North and South Korea. What would that look like? Would there be one president or two presidents and two armies, one foreign policy? How would that work? What would that look like? Oh, actually, we don't have the specific formation about the confederation.

We just agreed the confederation, the peaceful way. Is democracy possible in a confederation? Absolutely. We don't discuss that specific ones. Okay. All right. To me, it's an interesting idea, but if you think that here, in South Korea, we have two big political parties, you know, the People Power Party and the Democratic Party, and we have many smaller political parties like the Labor Democracy Party and when you are there are many small parties here in Korea. So Korea is very diverse, very politically diverse. Now North Korea has one

very, very big party, the Korean Workers' Party, and it has the Chondor Friends Party. It's very small and doesn't have a lot of influence. Now, if we have a confederation and tomorrow there is an election, North and South Korea united election, which party do you think will win? I don't know, Al. I have a feeling that I think the Korean Workers' Party will get a large number of votes and maybe the winner of that election. That doesn't sound very good for the people in South Korea. Yeah, but nobody knows about it.

Well, we can guess. Yeah, we can guess about but we can consider about the current situation. Actually, it's a far way to the future. I think it's too far in the future. Yes, yes. Okay. Kim Jong Un, is he a trustworthy negotiator? Actually, this question is too difficult. But it's an important an important one though for South Korea and for the United States. Regardless of whether Kim Jong-un is a credible negotiator or not, I would like to talk about why peace process on the Korean Peninsula has failed. Peace process was suspended because the agreement between the leaders, the two Koreas and DPRK

US failed to build trust due to poor implementation. In 2018, the two Koreas agreed to seize all hostilities against each other and face disarmament based on trust building in the military agreement. But ROK and US have continued to conduct joint military exercise to pressure the North with their overwhelming military power. And ROK military expenditure has also continued to increase. So attempts to inter-Korean exchange and cooperation have been blocked by UN and US sanctions. And even when Kim Jong-un announced in his 2019 U.E.R. address his intention to unconditionally

resume tourism to Kaesong Industrial Complex and Mount Geungang. But South Korean government has been reluctant to response because of relationship with the U.S. So, I believe these repeated examples have highlighted North Korea's dissatisfaction with South Korean government's attitude of cooperating with the U.S. leader sanctions and hesitating to engage in inter-Korean exchanges. Since then, North Korea has undervalued the North Korea-South Korea government role in the peace process and has moved to exclude from dialogue and cooperation. Okay, but let's go back there. So you said that there's a problem of implementation of the agreements. Now I remember that in 2018,

after Trump and Kim met in Singapore, Donald Trump suspended all military exercises for, well, the rest of his term really. It was quite, at least two years there were no serious military exercises here in South Korea. Isn't that that's an important fact, isn't it? Yes, it is a very important that between the DPRK and US that they agreed that Donald Trump agreed to stop the military exercise. But in 2019, the military exercise resumed with a small scale of exercises. But anyway, the... But North Korea cannot see those exercises.

They can see it. They couldn't see it. They could see it. How? They know that because the South Korean government released the... Right, so North Korea cannot see the exercises directly, they can see South Korean government news photographs about it. Oh, no, they knew it, the South Korean government released the news. And the other thing is that the South Korean government

increased military expenditures and the South Korean government imported strategic weapons from the U.S. Yeah, okay. But again, North Korea cannot see directly those exercises. They only see the information that the South Korean government or the South Korean media gives them. Now, what about North Korea? Kim Yo-jong said, let's destroy the inter-Korean liaison office in Kaesong.

Yeah, that one is because of anti-north Korea leaflets. By citizens' groups, by civil society groups. Yes, by conservative civil societies. Right, now why do you destroy a government building to respond to civil society group action because in? 2018 the South and North North Korea they agreed Stopped the hostile let each hostilities each other between government. Yes. Yes Do you think the government should should governments control civil society? I know in 1994 when your organization was founded the PSPD was founded during Nortea's administration. I'm I'm almost sure

PSPD would not like control by Nortea was government of PSPD Why is it different now? Why should the government control right-wing civil society groups? Oh actually the you know the anti anti-north korea leaflet is a problem of Detreating the inter-korean relationship So the long from the long time ago the between the South and North Korea They agreed to stop the hostilities. I think the previous government, they agreed that one.

So even the Lee Myung-bak administration and Park Geun-hye administration, the government tried to restrict and refrain the anti-North Korea leaflets, because that was raised a problem along the borders. But nowadays, the current government, they didn't do anything to refrain or the... The constitutional court said that the anti-leaflet law is illegal. Yeah, but the court, they agreed to the restrict or refrain from the anti-reflecting to North

Korea because that one is make the resident along the borders to feel unsafe. Yes, yes, yes. Why do you think North Korean government is so threatened by leaflets? Leaflets and broadcast and radio and internet. Why is North Korean government threatened by that? I think it's a, I can, I don't want to say that it threatens, it's just one of hostilities. During the period when Park Geun-hye was president from 2015, even until Moon Jae-in's presidency in 2018, there were many, many leaflets came from North Korea to South Korea.

Did you see any of those leaflets? You mean directly? Maybe on a photograph on Yonhap News or on television? Yes, I saw the photographs. Were they threatening to you? Did you feel threatened by them? No, but you know that one, reflating is one of criticize the DPRK regime. And why is that a problem? It's a big problem because you know, we can think about how international community is dealing with the human rights in DPRK.

Actually the international community, they are dealing with the human rights issues in North Korea. They are criticizing the regime. Actually, it is not solve the human rights issues in DPRK. They only focus on criticizing the regime. So we should learn about the death cases. So criticizing the regime is not solving the problems. But here in South Korea, you have the freedom to criticize your own government. You can demonstrate here in Gwanghwamun, you can write a petition to the presidential office, you can even run for election,

you can do many things to criticize your government. In North Korea, we what the people in North Korea cannot or do not criticize their government. What's wrong with criticizing the DPRK government? Oh, actually, I agree. I think the freedom of expression is very important for us. But the problem is, The problem is that I don't mention about the contents of leaflets. I just focus on the way to spread that leaflet to North Korea. But you know, today we cannot send an email to North Korea or we cannot make a website for North Korean people or send a Twitter or Instagram to North Korean people. So maybe the leaflets are the only way to communicate with North Korean people.

I don't think it's the only way to communicate with each other. The leafletting is aiming for the... criticize the, the reason. So, and that the reflecting, uh, make a resident along the borders to be dangerous. So the, that's why the, we are calling for it, uh, calling for, uh, ref restricting the anti, uh, reflect until, uh, North Korea reflects. Okay. But can, can you understand my confusion that you are on the one hand you are in favor of freedom of expression. PSPD likes freedom of expression since 1994. PSPD has supported freedom of expression. On the other hand, you think that criticizing the DPRK regime is not good.

Yeah, because the Korean War is not over. Now we are in wartime. In the Korean Peninsula, we didn't establish the peace regime in the Korean Peninsula. So the reflecting is one of a way during the war time. But that's government to government action, right? This is now we're talking today about civil society action. Isn't that different? I think it's the same. It's the same.

Yes. Should the North Korean Workers' Party be allowed to exist in South Korea? And should South Korean people be allowed to have access to North Korean media? I don't know about allowing the DPRK Workers Party to exist in South Korea but I think the government should definitely open up DPRK broadcasting. The UN government has been pushing for a gradual opening of North Korean broadcasting since its inauguration. But in 2023, the Minister of Unification stopped piloting the opening of DPRK, the Nodong Sinmun. Yes. And this year, the opening of North Korean broadcasting

completely disappeared from the Minister of Unification plan. Yeah. ROK is probably the only country in the world where DPRK sites are not accessible through the internet. Because of the national security laws, ROK are forced to access DPRK site through overseas site or import the DPRK information from the abroad. This has blocked the opportunities for South and North Koreans to get to know and understand each other, create the knowledge and understanding of DPRK is an important foundation for inter-Korean exchanges and cooperation.

What about the other way? Should the North Korean government allow South Korean media and websites and books and newspapers in North Korea? Yes, of course. Do you think that's realistic? Nowadays, it's unrealistic. It's unrealistic, but if relations are between two Koreas, we can restart to exchange the information each other and opening the broadcasting and some media and kind of things. Do you think the DPRK government feels threatened by outside information, outside media? I'm not sure. But anyway, nowadays, they are strictly

to ban outside the media and the books and kind of their broadcasting. But we know that there are some, there's a small number of people in Pyongyang, they work for the government and they study South Korean media, they look at South Korean newspapers, they make funny comics about South Korean political situations. So they have access to media, they have that information, but they don't want to spread it through all of the people living in North Korea. Yeah, in the future. In the future, not now. But nowadays, anyway, the relationship between two Koreas are deteriorated. We can talk about the opening, the broadcasting and the media. But after, when our relationship is improved, we can, we should exchange and opening the

broadcasting. So how can we improve the relationship? What are some small steps that we can begin with? Yeah, so we must make an environment for dialogue. So the South Korean civil society, we are calling for stopping, suspending the joint military dress to make the environment for dialogue. Now the South Korean National Security Act stops South Korean people from traveling freely to North Korea or communicating with North Korean people or

reading books from North Korea. Should South Korean people be permitted to travel freely to North Korea without government permission? I would like to introduce one activity from PSPD. Actually from 2016 to 2023, PSPD has been conducting social dialogues for peace and unification with conservative, moderate, and progressive civil society organization. Actually in 2021, the citizens deliberated for a long time and created the National Unification Convention. It included what the people want for the future of the Korean Peninsula to look like and how they want to realize it. People chose a Korean Peninsula where people can move and travel freely. A Korean Peninsula where people can travel freely around the world through South and North railway connection. And Korean Penis Law that is

a center of culture sought after by the world as a desired future of Korean Penis Law. I also think of Korean Penis Law with free movement and travel are possible as a desirable future for the Korean Peninsula. Okay, but let's think about individual cases. In 1989, Im Soo-kyung traveled from Seoul to Pyongyang and then when she came back she was arrested and she went to jail for three years. In 2010, the Reverend Han Sang-yeol, he also traveled to North Korea to Pyongyang for six weeks when he came back through Panmunjom. He was arrested and he went to jail, I think, maybe for five years. So do you think that the South Korean government should stop prosecuting people who visit North

Korea? Considering the current situation, it is not easy to the government allowed to the go and go and come each other, but if we think about the unification and peaceful peace regime We should move freely each other. So we can many people are mentioned about the case of Germany, in Gieschen, that time the Western Germany, they, that the people, they could exchange and move freely, each other. They could visit East Germany? Yes, yes, yes. Okay, so you would like to see a similar situation here?

Yes, yes, yes. Okay, so you would like to see a similar situation here? Actually not same but we can Learn from that story history. Mm-hmm. Now a few minutes ago We talked about leaflets civil society group sending leaflets into North Korea and I understand that PSPD doesn't like that because it makes the situation tense and makes people on the border feel unsafe. Do you have a similar position about radio signals broadcasting into North Korea? Should civil society groups be allowed or should the government be allowed to broadcast into North Korea?

Yes, we have the same position about the loudspeaker broadcast to DPRK. Actually, the loudspeaker broadcast to DPRK is still prohibited under the Inter-Korean Relations Development Act, but the government is currently committing illegal act right now. Okay, but that's broadcasters. I'm talking about radio. What do you think about radio? It's a... I mean, not loudspeakers. Sorry, that's loudspeakers. I'm talking about radio. What do you think about radio, not loudspeakers? Radio to deeper key. Yes.

They're along the borders. No, no, I mean, radio can be anywhere. If you have an antenna and somebody in North Korea has a small radio and they can turn it on and they can hear a South Korean radio signal Yeah, but we are the we don't have any position about the radio I have no position right? Yeah, you are opposed to the loudspeakers. Yes. Yes, right Okay, one of our hostile lady policies Now recently in August, it's almost ago, President Yun Sung-yol gave a speech on Liberation Day, and during that speech he emphasized that Korean liberation is not complete until

the people of North Korea are also free or also liberated and until both halves of Korea are united, democratic and free. How does PSPD respond to that? Hmm, actually after his announcement, we released a statement. Actually, I think unification doctrine announced by Yoon Sung-ryeol is theory of North Korea collapse and absorption unification. Actually, Yoon government's unification policies regresses the level of unification discussion to the authoritarian era of the Cold War.

authoritarian era of the Cold War. So President Yun has proposed three visions of a unified Korea, but in three visions, there is no vision for unifying the Korean Peninsula, which has been divided for 80 years and has been at war and ceasefire for more than 70 years. Okay, so I gather that PSPD probably doesn't like President Yun's speech about liberation. Yes, of course.

But do you think people in North Korea are free? Uh, somehow, somehow, somehow they are not free, but it's kind of a rhythm. We have a different rhythm. So we couldn't mention about that. It's not easy to talk about they are free or they are not free. Yeah, because the different reason. Okay, but again, here in South Korea, you can say whatever you like, you can demonstrate

against the South Korean government, you can criticize President Yun, you can come on this podcast, you can write a newspaper, you can make a website. People in North Korea can't do those things. Yeah, but we can't compare it to which one is better or not. Because we have different regimes, so we should understand each other. So I think about UN government unification doctrine is our regime, democracy regime is better than North Korea's regime. So that one is a big problem. So the first one is, first step is to be unification on the Korean Peninsula. We should respect the situation.

Did you ever speak to any person who came from North Korea and now lives in South Korea? Yes, I have experienced it. Okay, and what do they say to you about the regime in the DPRK? Actually, personally, I didn't talk about the regime. So they talk about their experience in North Korea. Because she lived in Pyongyang, so she shared her experiences.

Now we have, I think, almost 30,000 North Koreans who live here in South Korea. Many of them came because they were not happy with the system or the regime in North Korea. They made a choice that the system here is better than the North Korean system. But you know, the people from North Korea, they are not living in South Korea well. So some people, they lived from South Korea. Because in South Korea society, there are... I couldn't remember the English expression. There are anyway...

Some discrimination? Yes, yes, yes, kind of things. Does PSPD have a position about human rights problems in North Korea? Of course, we are dealing with human rights issues. It's very important. But when we talk about But when we talk about the human, when we deal with the human rights issues in DPRK, we must deal with establishment of a peace regime in on the Korean Peninsula together. Okay, so if I understand correctly, you think peace regime first, then we can talk about human rights? No, not first and second, just at the same time. Okay.

Yeah. But you think we cannot talk about human rights without a peace regime? Yes, yes. So they must come together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see. And even the South Korean human rights, I think we can start to have a human rights dialogue

between the South and North Korea. And the European countries, they have some human rights dialogue between the DPRK and the European countries, EU kind of things. We can discuss and we can find a way to improve human rights each other. But we should deal with establishment of peace regime on the Korean Peninsula at the same time. All right. Okay. Well, that's where we will finish today. Thank you very much, Yongha Lee, for coming on the NK News podcast. Thank you very much. And you can find the People's Solidarity for Participatory Democracy online at peoplepower21.org

and on Twitter at peoplepower21. Yonga, does PSPD also make some English versions of its reports and statements? Yes, we have the English website. You can find that kind of statements or the report. Okay, all right, there you go. You can find it there. Thank you very much and listen again next time.

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