Not As We Planned - Sabrina Zohar: Everything You Need to Know About Dating & Relationships | Not As We Planned Podcast

Episode Date: March 5, 2026

Dating can feel confusing, frustrating and at times completely overwhelming. In this episode, renowned dating and relationship expert Sabrina Zohar joins us to answer your most pressing questions - from navigating no contact and mixed signals to building healthy, secure relationships that actually last. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey guys. Hi. You're listening to Not As We Planned. So get ready for honest, raw, unfiltered, unhinged story where we share our advice, opinion and talk about all the shit that people avoid discussing. We want to point out we are not qualified professionals, although I feel the high and I'm one. And what we say is the advice we would give to our besties. Hi guys and welcome to another episode of Not As We planned. Today we have a guest for you. And guys, this is a real pinch me moment because this is someone that was, probably one of our goals of getting her... She's been on our dream. Yeah, I think she's on our vision board. Like, she is someone that we wanted. She is someone that I think I started following when I first went through my divorce

and just everything she speaks about, guys, just be ready to be inspired. I think we just need to get straight to it and let's get introducing. Let's do it. Roll the mics. Roll the clips. Guys, we are, honestly,

Tash and I are basically like fan girl, pinch me moments. I'm like, what I call my mom. But we have the incredible Sabrina Zohar on today. And honestly, she's like, her posts are just, when they come up, I just always stop scrolling on my feed. I listen. I'm like, this woman just speaks so much sense. And actually, I've saved so many of your posts because especially I'm someone who's navigating dating, I'm just like, I need a bit of a reality check sometimes. I think even when we were both going through a divorce, like I think that's when you came up on my four year page and TikTok, you know how the algorithm just catches you and I'm like, yeah, yeah, need more of her.

So thank you so much for being here. Can you give everyone a little intro just about you and what you do and why you're here today? Of course. Thanks, gals. I'm so excited to be here and I love, as much as I hate the internet sometimes, I love it because it brings us together. Like, I don't know when I would have met you. So I'm so grateful. So my name is Sabrina Zohar. I'm a certified dating and relationship coach. And I really just help people to break the loops, understand their patterns and start to make changes in their life, whether that be if you're in a relationship, if you're single, or you just want to come back home to yourself. Because relationships don't always have to be romantic. They could be in anything. And my journey started,

I was the hot mess. I was the girl that was listening to all the clickbait on the internet, was listening to all of the videos and then coming at the end going, but why do I feel so disconnected and sad and lonely and I don't actually feel like any of this is helping me. And so about at 2022, I was supposed to be on Shark Tank. So I'm actually wearing it. I have a clothing line called software. And I was set to be on and that was my future and I'm a business owner and all of this. But I had been doing so many podcasts and panels and I kept talking about dating and relationships and people were really enjoying the work that I had done and all of the things that I were saying, it was relating into the field. And I was on set. And Sabrina, Sabrina,

you're next like i had my set for mark cuban like you're going to go up and pitch and this is going to be it and they sent me home and they said they couldn't fit me on and they did it again a month later and that was the beginning of a really dark time for me where i i struggled to just pull myself out of my mental health and at the time a guy i went on one date with called me just to see how it went and he talked me off the ledge and really made me realize like the stars just aligned that not everyone you meet has to become the love of your life and it just everything i had learned and been taught, started to connect. And so I just started to create TikToks. And I was like maybe somebody else will feel like I feel, which then led me to starting the Sabrina Zohar show and having my

podcast where I just talked to a camera for 30 minutes every week and really just evolving and growing in this community to where we are now. So I'm super grateful and excited. And I'm even more excited because I literally just signed my contract for my book to be published in the UK. Oh, wow. Wow. We need to get a copy of that. Yeah. Oh my God. I love that. Do you know what? I think it's really inspiring because Carly and I, when we started our podcast, which was only now maybe like just over two years ago. Two and a half.

Two and a half years ago. You know, we just both went through similar experiences with going through a divorce, becoming single moms. Hitting rock bottom. And really turning that pain into something that we could share with other people because it is a really lonely place out there when you feel like you're the only one going through something. And watching your community grow of like over. you've got millions of followers.

But on Instagram and TikTok. So it's just such a pleasure. We have got so many questions. So we thought we'd just delve right in and get your feedback on things. Yeah. So we're going to go in. We're going to start with like dating.

Because we do, our listeners, some of us are dating, some of us in relationships. We're all over the place really, aren't we? Let's be honest. So how can you tell if someone is actually interested in you

in the early stages of dating. So I totally get that a lot of people want probably this very definitive of like they do X, Y, and Z, but I think what we're looking for is effort equals interest. It's really important to see how much effort is this person putting on and does it match and commensurate with how long they know you? Because the pendulum can swing, right? We can have people that don't prioritize, that breadcrumb, that's the lower end of the spectrum, that they send you a heart emoji on your story, but then they don't make plans.

They text you when it's convenient for them, right? Like, I've been there, my fair share. Every time you try to get vulnerable with them or tell them like, hey, I like you. I'd like to. It's somehow always buoys back to shallow and they don't actually do anything with it. But because that's so enticing of maybe, maybe, maybe they'll choose me, we stick around. Then we go all the way to the others out of the spectrum where it's like the love bombing and they're coming on really strong. And they're doing all this grandiosity.

Like, I'm watching one show. And the girl said, oh, our first date, he took me to a jewelry store and bought me a $2,000 necklace. and it's like, girl, no. That is not appropriate. Where is he from? Well, the irony is is he, his ex, he was super

abusive to her and, like, verbally abusive and put her down. And it's like, that's the behavior, right? The whole point is they come on really strong. They get your boundaries down so that you think they're their night and shining armor so that when they start to do the devalue stage, you're like, but they love me

and look how much they care about me. And they must be doing this because they care about me. but that's really just their tactic. And so I think what we're looking for is a balance in the middle, right? We're looking for somebody who is intentional with the plans that they make, who is consistent, right? And consistency doesn't mean that every day they text you at the same time,

but what that means is you know that they're reliable. You could go to them and say, hey, you know what, I don't love the way you said this, and it's not going to be met with, there's something wrong with you or you're being too much or deflection or projection. It's met with accountability and ownership. And what that looks like in the early stages of dating is maybe you match, maybe you meet. It's a little bit of conversation. Then it goes into, hey, let's meet. Then you go on the first date. The first date is just to see if you want to have a second date. And then you have a third date. Like there is a, there is a flow to it. But that doesn't mean if we're talking heterosexual norms that the man has to do all the work and the woman just receives. Like, I asked my partner out on our third date. I'm the one who came over and made dinner, which wasn't great, but I tried. So I think that there's, we're looking for reciprocity. We're looking for consistency. And we're ultimately looking for safety. And that's how you know someone. into you is that they show up the same every single day, even when they're having a bad day,

because what's important is how do they treat you when things aren't going well, not just how do they treat you when everything is fine? Yeah, that's... One is just, there was something you said about that. You said about it's not about them texting you at the same time every day. There was a few reels you did that really opened my mind to this, because I was very much under the impression that I was someone that needed those morning texts, those good night texts. and I was briefly dating someone in the summer who wasn't like that at all. Actually, hindsight, he wasn't consistent at all, but that's another story. But I realized I didn't actually need those.

And that was through listening to some of the things you've said about that. It'd be really interesting for our listeners, just because I think we can obsess over those small things. Oh, my God, he didn't text me good morning. Oh, it's a hill I will die on. And it's one of the things that I started on TikTok was like I came out breaking the mold of, you don't need somebody to text you every single day to know that they like. you. Now, like you said, they're not consistent in other ways. That's what we're looking for. But I think we focus. I had somebody message and say, my boyfriend doesn't answer my text,

but he'll watch my stories. I'm dating a fan, not a partner, like, what the fuck? And I said, okay, well, if we zoom out outside of the text, what else are the issues? Are they not consistent? Are they not reciprocal? Are they not holding space for you? Because if that's your only issue is that they don't text you within 20 minutes of when you send a message, then what we're looking at as a hyper vigilance. And I understand it because I was her. I would have panic attacks. I would wake up three or four times in the night to see if this person text me. I would lose my marbles. My entire mood was dependent upon if they send me a message or not. And really what that is is that we're looking for safety in somebody else. We're saying that's a dopamine hit. The more I wait for

the text, the more I'm getting dopamine. That's why when you receive it, it's almost like oxygen. Okay, I could breathe. But then it starts right back up again because the anxiety has nothing to do with them. At the end of the day, what is somebody texting you good morning doing besides validating to ourselves? See, they didn't forget about me. They care about me. But that's not how you get to know somebody. That's not building a deeper connection. All that's doing is it's giving you a quick hit. And so what we're looking for is, okay, so they don't text me for an afternoon or a day. But do we have plans? Is this person calling and FaceTiming? If I tell them, I'd like more communication, are we able to compromise? Because it's a little device in our hands. Just because I have my phone in

my hands 24-7 doesn't mean that you should have access to me. And there are times I don't have bandwidth. I have 15 text messages from yesterday. I just didn't have the space to answer. I doesn't, just because I looked at their stories or liked their social media, doesn't mean that I have the capacity to have a full-on conversation because it's never just one text. And we know that that's the reality. Because them saying good morning, you say, oh, good morning. I hope you have a good day. And then I'll get the, but they didn't text me again. And they didn't ask me any questions because what we're doing is we're making sure that we have certainty that this person likes us through the messaging. It's not actually about what is that, how is that

aiding and betting in our connection. Yeah. Do you think though that like just say like early stages of dating and maybe like, I don't know, the first few weeks there's quite a bit of like consistency with the chatting and you've gone on a few dates and you're chatting here and there and then it's sort of like starts to die down or fizzle out and you're sort of feeling like, oh, like he's really making as much effort anymore because for me, I would feel like, I'm not going to say if he wanted to, he would because I know what you're going to say to that. However, and we'll get onto that soon, but I feel like for me, I feel like communicating like even like, hey babe, hope you're, hope you set, well, I'm going to have a really busy day, but I'll speak to you later.

For me, that's just a bit of like common courtesy and communication. If we've been speaking and then you're maybe your day's a bit busy. So I'm not sitting there being like, oh, the vibe has changed. I think it's if it starts, it's like the, how it starts, isn't it, right? Well, but what you're describing is hypervigilance, right? You're saying because what is that, what is that text doing? It's giving you certainty so that you don't spiral, but then it has nothing to do with the connection in them. What it's doing is that's self-serving. And I'm not saying that to be an asshole. I'm saying that honestly, because when someone starts at 100, that's why we don't want to start with the messaging every day. You're building a fantasy. You don't know who this

person is. So for them to say, hey, babe, I'm going to be busy. You're like, I don't know you. I don't know your middle name. I don't know what you're allergic to. Why are you becoming part of my every day? That's on me to set boundaries and say, I don't know you very well. I would rather just have consistent plans and know that I'm going to see you

versus you telling me that I'm not going to hear from you today because even if I hear from them or not, how is that actually building the connection? That's what I'm saying is like when we first start talking and we're texting all the time and we're chatty, chatty, chatty, that we're chasing feelings. There's no tonality.

There's no intonation. I can't see facial expressions. I can't see body language. I am creating the version of who I want them to be via the message. So that's why I would say in the beginning to set those boundaries of like, hey, I'm just trying to get to know you, you're not part of my day to day because that's what keeps us stuck on them is that we've told our nervous system, I'm only safe if I have them. We've been texting every day.

And now I'm creating a fantasy because what do you do? We're projecting the potential that they could have. Then when we don't hear from them, we're filling in the blanks with C, I knew it. They don't like me. They should have told me what they're doing today. then that really just comes back to, what does that do? It serves us. It's not actually about the connection.

Right. With that, we've got a question here saying, what are your thoughts on having those butterflies at the beginning or having that chemistry at the beginning of dating? Is that something to be concerned about or something that we should be okay having? I think we can find a middle balance with it. There's scientifically, they call it the trauma tingles

because when we get the butterfly and those big feelings, like I would like to ask you, gals, When the last time you had that, how many, how often is that feeling end up being a safe, secure partnership? How often does that end up being? Well, we're both currently single. I mean, yeah, I completely agree. I feel like I've had that quite recently on like a few like first dates.

And it's all really exciting. I think I'm really ground. I've got a lot more grounded in stepping back and being like, I don't know this person at all. It's all fancy. But it's exciting on the date. Totally. I think my first relationship after my. divorce, I massively romanticised him just even before I met him. Like on paper he was ticking every

box. I was like, oh my God, like this is like this is amazing. And I met him and I was like, wow, like I think he's the one. So I think my next relationship when obviously that didn't end very, well, it ended. My next relationship, I was very much more like take a step back, like see it for like what it is. I can't romanticize someone if I don't actually know. them. So do you think butterflies are almost like your body's way of telling you like you need to chill the fuck out? Well, typically what it's happening is it's sending blood to your philangies because that's a trauma

response or your body is sensing something familiar, right? Notice how like usually when we feel the butterflies, they're super attractive and they're charming and you have the banter and because what they're doing is they're putting on that they're showing up for the audition, but that doesn't mean they get the job. because what we're looking for is when the feeling fades, when the butterflies are gone, what are you left with? You're left with a human. I want to know how do they interact with me.

I want to know how they handle conflict and repair. Do they have emotional regulation? Because oftentimes the butterfly is really just familiarity. Now, that doesn't mean the minute you feel it, you should run. But what that means is I don't want to use that as the metric that this is the person for me. What I'll say is, okay, I'm feeling really excited. That's really awesome. I know I can feel this again.

but I do need to, because I'll even say this, when we feel that, doesn't that kind of sound like a teenager coming home being like, oh my God, mom, the boy at school is so hot, he's so handsome and we're going to run off in the sunset and we're going to be together forever? And what would our parents say to that? Like, okay, sweetheart, why don't you get to know this person? You're 15. This is probably not going to be the love of your life. And you have kids, so you understand what I'm saying. And so that's where we have to go, okay, so typically what that is, is like, if I get dysregulated or I start to feel like, oh my God, this could be the one. I'm no longer in the present moment. I'm now in my amygdala and I'm coming from a younger age because an adult, right, if I'm in my 30s, 40s, 50s, an adult would go, yeah, they're nice, but I don't fucking know this person. Like, yeah, let me see how you are over time. A teen, a child would say, oh, they're the one. That's it. Come and save me. And so we have to be really cognizant and aware of the narratives that we create. I don't want to take away the fun, but I will say most of the healthy and secure relationships I see people say it's not the highs and lows. It's consistent. It's safe. And that's why a lot of people think healthy equals boring. Because when your nervous system feels safe,

we don't have the ups and downs. And I actually saw a study yesterday because I was doing an episode of solo on potential, right? Like, why do we fall for potential? And there was a study that shows when we have somebody that we have to date down, right, they're emotionally and available, they're not consistent, they're not showing up, we get so much dopamine that our system has no problem down regulating to meet them where they're at. Because we'll say they must be valuable, I can teach them, I can fix them, I could be there. when we meet somebody that is above, right? Like maybe above the average that we meet, they're consistent, they're showing up.

We don't go above to have gratitude that we met them. We stay at our baseline. So we have no problem dating down. But yet when we meet somebody will say, boring, right? They don't give me that feeling. I don't feel the spark. But really what that's saying is like, oh, you're consistent, you like me.

That goes against my core beliefs because I have to earn love and this doesn't feel safe because it's different. I actually relate to that. Literally. Same. What I will say is you know how you said, obviously you want to eventually understand if someone's like able to emotionally regulate and like hear your needs.

And at what point, because I realize everyone shows up as their best selves at the beginning, at what point do you feel like you really start to be able to learn if someone is who they say they are? Yeah. Like seeing that shadow self and like seeing like the not so great bit. and understanding, like, are we actually compatible? Like, I'm not worried about the chemistry.

I think chemistry is really easy to find. It's that compatibility of working out, can we actually be together, make a life together, yeah. I think that takes us taking up space, right? Like, when I first met Ryan, he didn't text me every day, and I remember just being like, right, Zab, we're just going to, like, see how this goes, right? We're not going to put the carpal for the horse.

I had to do a lot of my own emotional regulation. But very quickly on, like, if he said, hey, do you want to get together Tuesday at seven? I went, no, seven doesn't work for me. That's a little late. Could we do five? That right there, in it of itself, you can then start to see. I've had guys say, wow, square, well, you need to go to bed early and you're like, fuck you.

Who the fuck are you? Yeah. So what we're looking for is like, are you taking up space? Are you setting a boundary saying, that doesn't work for me? No, thank you. I'm not interested in getting drinks. Could we go do this? How do they handle when you share something vulnerable with them on a date? Do they active listen and say, wow, thank you so much for sharing.

I could imagine that was really tough. Like, can I share something about myself? Do they deflect? Do they use humor? These are all those moments to start to say, hmm, I always even ask, like, how do you handle conflict? Like, what does that look like for you? Some people will say, oh, I don't do with drama or like, whatever, I don't have the time for that. Some people will say, I need to handle it immediately.

It starts to just give you an understanding. But I think what we're looking for is like it took me about a month to have, like, because I started to have an issue with Ryan. To be honest, I don't remember it's been over three years, so I can't remember exactly what it was. but I remember calling my mom saying, I'm scared, what if when I tell him he tells me I'm too much? She goes, good, then he can go find less. Yeah.

And I said, okay, that's fair. And I called him and I remember, I facetined him and I said, can I just be honest? Can I share something with you? And I said something that bothered me and he just sat there and he was like, that's really fair.

You're right. That's not fair to you. And I'm so sorry that I did that. What do you need for me in order to feel a little bit more secure in what we're doing right now? That is what I mean by. I was like, whoa,

panties drop, that's hot. That's how you handle it. Yeah, that's like my love, that's like my Aphrodisiac. Right. Right? Like, you just validated my emotion. You didn't try to deflect it back onto me or make it my issue. And so it's these little moments that we have to be aware. And also, too, like one of the biggest things is we're not going to feel better until we learn to feel. And I think a lot of us, we don't really pay attention to the cues. Like, I remember this one guy I dated, he was so fucking hot. Oh my God. This guy was, kudos to younger me is all I have to saying. He just, he had no emotional bandwidth. And at first, I romanticized it. I was like, oh, he's just nervous. Oh, he's just that. But it became within the first two weeks, I could see very

clearly when I was like, hey, I need a plan. Sorry, I'm not available last minute. There was always a like, wow, relax. I'm busy. And you're like, no, thank you. What I started to do is say, how do I feel in my body? I don't like the way that feels. I feel dismissed. I don't, I don't appreciate how they're speaking to me. You can start to see that within the first month if you know how to be in touch with yourself and say, hmm, that didn't feel good or vice versa. Wow, that felt really good. I've never experienced that in a relationship. I want to give this person more of my time because the reality is I don't want anyone to go and play detective. Part of dating is that we have to collect data. So it might take you a month or two to figure that out. That's why we date multiple people. That's why we set boundaries.

That's why we work on our nervous system so that we don't get so. It has to work with them. otherwise I'll never meet anybody else because then what you're saying is I need you in my life, not I want you in my life. Yeah. And do you think that's really like becoming more self-aware, like the fact that, you know, you can take a set back and be like, oh, actually, I don't really like that he did that. That's not really for me. At what point are you like, oh, well, no one's perfect. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt or you're just like, no, next. I think the benefit of the doubt also has to come with a conversation. So it, because the benefit of the doubt, when we're like, oh, maybe that's just two days. It's like, okay.

Okay, but does that work for me? Because if, let's say, I'll give you an example, when I first started dating Ryan, he's not a texter. He fucking hates his phone to this day. And we would text and I remember probably after like five or six dates, I sent him a text and I said, hey, can I just share something with you? I feel a little disconnected in between dates because we don't talk all the time. Is there any way that we could text a little bit more just so that we can continue the connection and the conversation? Like, hi, anxious girl. Like I wanted the texting too.

Yeah. And he wrote back and said, no. And then he goes, but let me explain. And he gave me this beautiful explanation. He was like, I work in tech, and I stare at a computer for nine hours. Then I want to be with my friends. I want to be with my dog and I want to be present. The last thing I want to do is hold a mini computer in my hand and build a connection

with somebody that I have no tonality to. If you're open to it, how about we have a phone call in the week or a FaceTime and a consistent date night so that you can feel like you're excited about seeing me without it having to be reliant on text. If that works for you, awesome. And if not, I completely respect that. And I wish you all the best if that's the case. Love that. Wow. Yeah. Where do we find Ryan? Where can we find these men?

They were honestly, where are we find, like, I met him on hinge. Did you? Like, I met him online. I am the story of like, we met online. We hooked up on the first date and I was like, I'm never seeing this guy again. It's because I genuinely showed up as myself. I was more afraid of losing myself than I was afraid of losing him. And so when I left, I regulated. I could have blown this shit up within five fucking days of meeting him because I could said you're not giving me what I need. You're not contacting me. I slept with you. And instead, I was like, dude, this guy doesn't fucking owe you anything. You are a grown ass adult. You made a choice for yourself. And if this works out great. And if not,

I have to move on with my life. Again, because when I say, I need you, then what I'm saying is I will do anything to keep you. And that's not a fucking healthy place to be. Love that. I've got a question. So, what questions would you, what are the best questions to ask someone on a first date to start to gauge who they are as a person. My two favorite questions, and I'm sure if anybody has listened to my stuff, they're like, this bitch is saying these questions again, but they're my favorite, right? I like to ask, how did your last relationship end and what did it teach you about yourself? Because I want to see, do you take accountability?

Are you growth-minded? Are you learning from what happened? Are you processed through it? How do you speak about your ex? I don't care about the ex. I'm not asking, but that's the thing, right? If I ask that question and they start to go in, if they're such a fucking asshole, And it's a 25-minute dissertation.

My response is, okay, this person's not moved on from it. Like, they have not processed through this and they're not still over it. And I will be the next one. The other question I really love to ask is, what is something you changed your mind about recently and what prompted the change? I want to see if they're growth-minded. Maybe they say, I used to think this and now I think this. The questions I want us to avoid asking, what's your attachment style?

Nobody is understanding what the fuck that means. And people are not good at self-identification. because if someone says I'm avoided, you're like, oh, run without getting to know them. Most anxious people will be like, I'm secure. You're like, no, bitch, you're not, okay? You're not. You're not. Anxiety attached.

Right? And then if somebody says, oh, I have anxiety. Then the other person's like, nah. So I think what we need to do is like be cognizant and aware of what we're trying to do is we're trying to understand. It's not about the question. It's about how this person answers. Do they use active listening? do they answer it or ask you a question back?

Are they trying to skip the question and say, I don't want to talk about my ex? And you're like, okay, you don't really understand what I'm asking. So I don't know if this will work. We want to start to see how comfortable this person is being asked a question with you. Because here's the thing, if that question feels too much, then how emotionally available are you to answer it? Yeah, I agree.

I agree. Here's one. So how do you know when you're actually ready to start dating again? I think the when do I know if I'm ready to date again question is a little toughie? But I think what I'll say is this, when you've processed and you understand why the relationship prior to you were, did not work, and what did you learn from it that you're no longer willing to accept, right? I think that's a huge place to be. Because here's the reality. You could think I am fine. I'm great on my own. Everything's great. And then the second you get into dating, you're triggered. And next thing you know, you're like, did I do any work? Like, what is happening? What we're looking for is, am I okay to go out and date with detachment? Detachment doesn't mean you don't care. But what we're saying is I'm not attached to the outcome. I'm going out. I'll put myself. out there if it works great and if it doesn't okay right i was good before them i'll be good after what's going to change with that do i feel like i have emotional regulation techniques do i have tools that i could utilize if it doesn't work if i don't hear from them because i think what i see is a lot of people saying i need to be

fully healed to date and it's like there's no such thing there is no such thing as being fully healed because your partner will trigger you anybody you date a trigger is a neutral action or inaction it's not a trigger we have this like false bullshit that's on ticot of like if they trigger you they're not right for you. And it's like, all right, babe, so you'll be alone forever because the news can trigger you, a friend can trigger you. We've hijacked that word as if, like, trigger means that they've punched you in the face and that you should accept it. A trigger could be they slam the door without realizing it, and it makes you feel like you're back home at being a six-year-old. It could mean that they say no to you and you've perceived that as rejection. It doesn't mean that there's facts to it. But I think

what we're looking for is, if I'm going to put myself out there, I have to be okay with rejection. and I have to know that that's part of it, right? Because if I need certainty, then I would say maybe we do a little bit more work on ourselves to expand our window of tolerance so that I could be okay being disappointed. And I think, you know, you guys have kids. I think that's the biggest thing that people have not taught their children is how to be okay, being disappointed that it didn't work out, right? Like, that's okay.

It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with me. And if I default to I knew they didn't like me and there my something's wrong with me and I'm too much, then that just shows me, okay, I'm filling in the blanks with my core beliefs. And that's where the work begins. Yeah. Okay. What are your biggest red flags that we need to look out for in dating? So red flags are a pattern of behavior. And so I think, again, another thing that's been wildly misunderstood in dating is like a red flag doesn't mean that they didn't open the door for you when you walked into the restaurant, right? Or that they follow another girl on social. It's like this is a low effort bullshit.

Red flag is, are they dismissing your feelings? Are they calling all their exes crazy? Yeah. Are they saying that they don't do. drama and they won't hold space for your emotions, right? We're looking for patterns of behavior that show that this person is not a safe person to be with. That's the red flag. Do they, do they stonewall? Do they shut down every single time you even say anything and they have no emotional capacity to hold space for you? Those are red flags. Not, they didn't text me for an afternoon. That's a red flag. It's like, now, now we're just creating shit. Don't know what you're talking about.

And I said, people are like, how do you know what I'm thinking? I'm like, because I was you. Because we're not snowflakes. Yeah, I feel like I'm at the point where I definitely used to be anxiously attached. And then I feel like I've been single for a year. And now I feel like I'm like very detached and like overly, I think because I'm very content on my own. And I'm in like that period where I'm like, I don't need anyone to add to my happiness.

Oh, of course I'd love someone. And I don't know if sometimes I've. maybe like try and almost like find a fault in someone. I don't know what it is. I don't know where to start the work. Well, I was going to say, so there's two different things. I'm single because I genuinely haven't met this person. I'm open to going out and to meeting people, but I'm not going to settle for somebody because my life is full and robust. And if you're in my life, you're additive, you're not taking away. That's one thing, right? Yeah, that's it. We have to look at the other side of the coin. The other side of the coin, which I'm sure we've met a lot of people like that is like, men are trash. I don't,

Like, fuck this. I want to protect my peace. I don't want to be bothered. I don't need to deal with it. That's an avoidance of being triggered. And so those are two different things, right? Because anxious folks, here's the flip side. They're also avoided. Right? We avoid, I don't want to be, I don't want to be disregulated. I don't want to be inconvenienced. And it's like, well, then what I'm saying is I don't want to grow because that growth is uncomfortable. If I go to the gym every day, I'm going to be sore because I have to break my muscle in order to rebuild it in a stronger way. And so I think if it's coming from a place of true intention of like, I don't mind going. going out and meeting somebody if I met the right person and I can go out. And if it doesn't work,

I'm making a choice for myself versus it coming from fear and from being guarded of, I don't want to be hurt again. And I've already done this. And I'm easier being alone because then what happens is when we have so much anxiety and your body doesn't know what to do with it, we go down the ladder and become go numb. We become so overwhelmed by the feelings that we start to shut down. And that's another protective mechanism that we use. So it's about getting introspective and saying, Is this coming from fear or is this coming from a place of empowerment and choice? I think sometimes it's really difficult when you, especially with all the emails we read and the stories of like this man did this and this man did that and he cheated and he lied.

And then you have like a lot of bad experiences with dates. It does then make you lose your faith in are there really as many men out there doing the work? And does it get to a point where our standards are high where they should be? But it's like. It's easy. It's being your own. It's just like a lot of men end up being then a bit disappointing because it's like they haven't done enough work

to sort of like meet me emotionally where I am or you know. That's what I feel like. Not get deflective when I say something that's maybe slightly critical. And then in the end you're just a bit like... I found like in the early stages of dating, I feel like I'm a pretty good communicator. When I've like tried to express my feelings about something,

I'm hit with like this is the early stages of dating. dating, it's meant to be fun, we don't need to have serious conversations. I end up like questioning myself, like, oh my God, am I being too, to not too, I hate the word too much, but like too deep, too intense, too early on. But to me, like, I date with intent. So I kind of need to know the answers. I was going to say, see, the difference here is like, it's one thing if you're trauma dumping, right? I'm watching the new love is blind and you're like, why are you talking about this after 20 minutes? Like, what are you doing? That's one thing. But I think here's the reality. what I hear from a lot of people, because I get the same emails of like, they did all of these things and my

responses, then why are you allowing it? Right? Like there is, there is a level of, okay, well, if they came on, that's why we talk about it. If they're perfect in the beginning, that's a red flag, because no one is perfect. There are going to be issues. Am I taking up space? Am I having my needs met? And what you just described, right? If I were to say something to somebody, the appropriate response might be, hey, I feel like maybe we're moving a little fast. What are you feeling right now that there's a disconnect because to me I thought everything was going well, but I'd like to understand how you're feeling and where this came from. That's holding space. That's being curious versus what you said. That's deflecting. Oh, it's you. You're the problem. You're the one. You're making this an

issue. And if we don't trust ourselves and notice how you said, that didn't feel good. That's what we follow. I don't like being spoken to that way. I don't appreciate the way that you handled this because there's a way that someone can say, hey, I've only had two dates with you. So this does feel like it's a it's a bit intense, but I'd like to know, like, what are your expectations or what are you expecting out of this dynamic? And I want to be honest if that's something I can do, right? There's a way that we can communicate. And so what you're doing right there by taking up space, by having the conversations, you're weeding them out. Absolutely. And that's the part of it. Take up this piece. Yeah, bye, see you the fuck later. Yeah. Like, go find less. But that's why I'm

saying, I think if somebody came to you and said, hey, I totally understand the question. And like, I'd be curious if you don't mind sharing, like, what was the context? Because nuance matters. Oh, yeah. What was it about? You know who it was with in the summer. I can't even remember. It was just about, I think it was to do with, like, the communication thing.

Just, I didn't mind that, like, he didn't text all the time or text good morning. But it was like some days we'd have like a two-hour conversation and sometimes we wouldn't hear from him for 48 hours. So it was just me expressing, like, that consistency is something that's very important to me. is there any wiggle room and whether we can make. And it was just like this, like, now I look back of it. It was like definitely deflection and just attacking, didn't like that he'd been called out.

And that was it. He was like, well, I made it very clear at the start. I don't do morning texts. This isn't about a good morning text. This is just about a bit of consistency. So what I'm hearing is like, you didn't feel heard, right? You didn't feel hurt from this person and they deflected onto you versus like when I told Ryan that and he was like, hey, totally makes sense, right?

Like there's a way that person could have said, hey, thank you for sharing. You're right. That is inconsistent. I shouldn't be going two or three days without responding and coming in with intensity because what would that have meant? This person needed to take accountability. That right there is you describing beautifully how in the early stages of dating we can weed them out by going, oh, you don't take any accountability and ownership.

You make it my problem. No, thank you. Yeah, agree. So true. So glad to sit in the bin. What are your thoughts, well, now that you've explained that you met Ryan on Hinge, What are your thoughts on dating apps? Do you think they're helping or damaging to relationships these days?

I think dating apps are just another way of dating. And I think it's like us blaming the casino, but yet you have the gambling problem. So why are we only blaming the casino for all of the issues? The dating apps, of course, inherently, they're a money-making machine. Like any fucking business, I don't, I don't know if people have realized when you join an email list of a company, you get 100 fucking emails that are sometimes manipulative because they use human behavior and psychology to get you to do what they want. This is nothing new. The reason that this is becoming is, and I think the issue what I see with a lot of people with dating apps is

the relationship they have to the apps, right? I hear this all the time of like, well, what are they doing on a dating app if they don't want a relationship? It's like people are on there for different reasons. Who am I to judge that you could want something casual? You could have just gotten out of a relationship and you're getting back out there. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with either one of you. But I think people see dating apps as you need to want a relationship in the way I want a relationship and with me 100% before I even go out with you. But what we have to say is it's just another way of meeting people. If somebody is not messaging you, if somebody's not making plans, then you don't need to get so hyperfixated, but it's another dopamine addiction loop.

That's why when I had the apps, I turned off notifications. So I wasn't constantly bombarded every day with maybe this could be the one. Maybe this could be it. I went on on my time. I went on once a day to see who matched with me. I used it passively. I wasn't going and texting and matching with 100 people. I saw who matched with me. I felt my comfort level. And then I would have a conversation. Ryan, within the first hour, we talked. He said, let me have your number if you're comfortable. If not, we can message here. I want to plan a date. Within an hour and a half, we had the date planned and we had a confirmation and that was it. Right? We didn't need to be talking for hours and up of this and this and this. I didn't talk to him for two days. I only

text him because I had to reschedule because I got sick. Then we didn't talk for another day. And then the day of we met, right? Like, it's okay to have something on there. You can do a FaceTime vibe check. You can have a phone call if you're not sure. But we have to see this as just another way to meet people. But I think people put everything of like, oh, well, if they're on the dating app, that means that if we match, you want me and you want everything I want. That's not what that means. It's the same as meeting somebody out in a bar. Just because you met them doesn't mean that they want to be with you. Do you think it's making people and like investing in building, you know, connections, like two disposable because there's so many other options?

Yes, and, right? Like I think, but I think that person, that would be their behavior, right? We have those people that those are probably the people that if they got married at 20 were cheating by the time they were 22. Those are the people that maybe if they traveled, like what we have to look at is that's a, that's the person. And so if the person doesn't value human connection, if the person is transactional, if the person is always next, next to next, the dating app doesn't necessarily,

they didn't breed that. The person has that personality and behavior. And so that's why I mean by like, we have to hold people accountable for it. Do I think the dating apps are gamify? Of course, right? That's the point of them is they gamify. But the dating apps, if we look at the flip side, I would never have met a good portion of the people that I have met if it wasn't for that. Right.

Like let's talk about social media. I wouldn't be here right now with you both if we didn't have social media. Social media is also addiction and it's causing people to have a lot of issues. But it's about us. What are our boundaries and how am I taking care? care of myself to have a different relationship with that technology. And that's why I say, if you're meeting somebody on there and you're like, oh, they're just flippant and they just want to have a new date, a new date. I remember I had a guy, and he was boasting on our first date

about how he goes on a new date every single night. And I remember I was like every night. And he was like, I love it. I've had a different date. And I've had 14 first dates in the last week. And that was a red flag to me, right? Like, that's a pattern of behavior. People are transactional to you. You're doing this for the attention. Never saw him. again, right? Shocker, because he couldn't have a bunch of, right? He didn't have a ton of second dates. And that was also part of me saying, hey, you're being inconsistent, right? He would do that. We had an amazing date. I remember we kissed at the end of the night and I was like, fuck yeah. I think we had a conference, we had like a four hour face time, like two days later. And then I

didn't talk to him for three days. And so when I text him, kind of what you did of like, hey, this feels, I don't really know how to read this. Like, there's a lot of intensity and then there's nothing. And his response was like very deflective of like, you're creating. narratives. I told you I'm busy. I have a lot of first dates. I never said I'd commit to a second date. And you're like, whoa. But that's the person. I don't think the dating apps created him. I think that guy's a fucking asshole. Yeah. Okay. Okay. What, flipping that on its head, I think we've spoken about like red flags and things. What do you think is a green flag in a potential partner that people tend to ignore? Like,

what do people overlook? Oh, I think the green flag is that they don't need to text you every single day that they don't come in at 100. My mama has said this since I was a kid. When they come at 100, where else are you going to go? When they're so sweet, they give me a fucking toothache. And so we see this as like, oh, the grandiosity. And look, they've planned all this and this and this. And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Are they chasing a feeling or is it actually about you? And so I think when we see that they're too perfect, it's too rehearsed, we have to be able to then say, I'm going to ask some questions. I'm going to ask some things to see if this person is really here for me, or if this is their MO and this is how they show up.

because anybody can be great at the audition. That doesn't mean that when they get the job, they're going to show up in the same way. I love that. And so I think the green flags, like I said, we hear it all the time of like, they text me every single morning, good morning, green flag, you're like, no, babe,

that's actually a red flag in my book because this person doesn't know you. How else are they showing up? Are they showing up in person? Are they having conversations of depth? Are they opening up? Are we having vulnerability? Do I feel safe with them,

seen heard and understood? Those are the fucking green flags I'm looking for, not do they text me every single day. Yeah, I think I saw something you post. and it was about how like the biggest green flag is how like when they just carry on with their life like it was before you like those people who like suddenly like they're messaging you all day long and like all the things they were doing before they met you suddenly disappear like that's something I've really taken notice of like if someone messages me too much it it icks me out and

just like oh like why aren't you just carrying on doing your thing now right go live your life yeah and that's the thing is I used to love that I used to be the girl yes I never forget my mom was my mom was visiting and there was a guy that I was talking to and I remember my friend we found out like later that we had both matched with him and we both had a very similar story we just I you know it's one of those things that your friend tells you about it you don't connect the dots because she never met him so I didn't even think anything of it and I was in L.A. He was in San Diego and I'm talking we were texting 24-7 and like it was how I'm just he's never met anybody like me and all this and I remember being my mom was visiting, I can't tell you anything besides that whole three days, all I remember

was texting him. I didn't lift my fucking head. I wasn't present with my mom. I remember just being so enthralled in this. And then sure enough, what happened? He fucking stood me up. And then he tried to come back a week later. I found out he had met another girl. He took no accountability and I never spoke to him again. But I wasted like a week and a half of morning, new and night, incessant texting. And I thought the same, like, don't you have a life? I don't understand. What do you do all day? that you could just message me 24 fucking 7. That's where I say that they're in addition to your life, not instead of. Yeah.

I think I definitely need to take that on board moving forward. Because I must say, like, my two relationships after my divorce were very intense. But I think that they were both actually attached as I was as well. And I think I always saw it as, oh, like, as long as it's consistent and it works for both of us, it doesn't matter if we message all the time. but actually looking back, it did encroach on my day-to-day and not doing enough for me or doing enough work or being present with my friends or my kids or so it's really for me actively making sure that as and when I do start dating again and not allowing it to become like my whole day.

Yeah, because what ends up happening as well, that's dysregulation if we don't hear from them, right? We can't sleep. We can't eat. I can't work. And it's like, wait a minute, who is this person that they have not? now hijacked your entire life. Yeah. And that's why going slow is so important. It's not an excuse for bad behavior. No one is saying that like, oh, they could go five days without messaging you. It's like, I didn't say that. But what I am saying is if a day goes by, I'll tell you a story. I had somebody wrote in and I gave it to her in a nice way. Well, nice-ish. And she said, I'm dating this guy. We've been dating for five months. He's awesome. He's great. Like no issues, right?

And she said, he messaged me on Friday night saying, I'm going to be working all day tomorrow and I have my son at night, but I'm so excited to see you Sunday. And she said, okay, babe, have a great night. Didn't hear from him Saturday. Sunday morning, he texts her saying, good morning. I can't wait to see you. What time do you want to meet up? She then texts him saying, this isn't going to work for me. I didn't hear from you yesterday. I desire consistency. You didn't. We weren't consistent. I got anxious. And it's like, so notice how she's projecting it onto him. She's making the fact that she, right, she's making her emotional dysregulation his issue. You didn't do this. And I had so much respect. The guy even wrote her back and goes, I'm not letting you do this. And he goes, first of all, I look through our text. In the five

months, you've texted me on your own once. I never heard from you. You didn't message me yesterday. And if it was such an issue, why didn't you say something? The second thing, he goes, I work for a company. He worked for Motorola. And he goes, I can't have an iPhone on the floor when I'm at work. He goes, and then I picked up my three-year-old. And if I'm on my phone while I'm with my three-year-old, that's very dangerous. And he was like, I'm not going to let you do this. Sure enough, She messaged back in and she said, I'm so glad I listened. We are now celebrating our year anniversary. We've never had the issue again.

I've learned that like sitting in the discomfort's important. And that's what I mean by like when we're so anxious, the reason, when we have urgency of fuck this, I need it to be done now so that I can feel relief, then that's not actually coming from a place of empowerment. That's coming from I am going to control how much I hurt. Instead of I'm going to be uncomfortable, right? I didn't hear from them today. Okay. Right? I don't need to fill in the blanks.

I don't need to create a narrative. maybe that person just doesn't want to talk today and that's okay because I don't fucking know this person yet. Yeah. It's good to be uncomfortable. Yeah, but I think for me what I think maybe I used as like not a excuse but because they message

as much as I did it's like they needed it as much as me. I saw it as it's fine because we're both the same. There was never really that like oh I haven't heard from them because we spoke all the time and it stayed consistent the whole way through our relationship but I think it's more me taking a step back and realizing next.

time, I don't want to be so consumed with it every single day. Like it's not necessary. Like what you said, I would personally rather someone wanting to forward plan and make special dates and have quality time together rather than messaging and FaceTiming every single hour. I'd rather actually the effort and the forward planning because for me that's more important. And what is consistency? Consistency is words and actions align. So that's why I'm saying people say, oh, consistency. they didn't text me in the morning. It's like that doesn't mean consistent. That is predictable. Right? You need to predict. And what is our nervous system is a prediction machine. It's trying to keep us safe. So we project everything that we have onto them. And I can't tell you how many relationships or potentials I ruined because I would text a guy and like didn't hear from them and be like, hey, I haven't heard from you today. How are you? Like, do you want to get together? 20, 30 minutes would go by it and hear from them.

I'd be like, hey, guess not. And they'd message me an hour later and be like, very may. They'd write back, right? And they'd write back and be like, hey, dude, I was in a meeting then. Like, I was actually excited to see you. But this behavior, I'm not interested. Because they can, like, they can smell it. Yeah. But I sometimes feel like I'm like that with friends, to be honest. But not, I don't necessarily say it to them. I think it in my head. Let's do some self-refection. I'll say something and I'll be like, okay, cool. Like, I guess not. But I think that's just me as a person. I realize that is definitely something that I need to work on. I feel like I say that to you. Like sometimes I'm like, I might read something, but I like don't necessarily write back straight away.

And like, I feel like you expect it from me now, though. You're much better than I'm expecting it. But I'm very like, sometimes I don't always have the capacity to reply to a message like there. And then I might open it and then I feel really bad. And then sometimes I like might forget or like, you know. And there I am being like, they're really rude. They read it and they don't reply. Right.

Then you see the disconnect, right? One person is going, hey, I'm flooded. I'm overwhelmed. I eat a minute. And then the other person is. going, filling in the blanks with their core beliefs, that's why in dating it becomes an issue because that's what I mean by, but then you don't actually care about the other person because we didn't try to understand your experience. The difference would be is if that's a pattern, right?

If every time you message someone, it's 12 to 15 hours in between a message, then they're not trying to progress the relationship, right? But they also wouldn't be making plans, right? It comes cumulatively. But I think what we see is that anxiety of like, well, I need the answer and I need certainty, but we don't do that with our friends. We don't do that with colleagues. We don't do that with our family. Like if I call my mom, I don't scream at her if she doesn't call me back in an hour. I assume she's busy and she'll call me when she needs anything. That's part of it.

But yet with the romantic relationships, nothing triggers as much as romantic to bring us back to our childhood. And so if we're constantly hypervigilant and, you know, it's the same as when they're like, well, it's been 27 minutes. It's been four hours since they responded and they're on Instagram. It's like, then what that's happening is your nervous system is saying, go find the problem. Go find it.

You'll go. You'll find it. And that doesn't mean that the person doesn't care about you. Maybe in that moment, that person got really shitty news at work. and they don't feel comfortable enough to come to you because they don't know you. What we want to see is, are we building, right? Like, we talked about if you're texting somebody, let's say you come in the beginning, and it's chatty Kathy's, right?

And you had even said, oh, but then it starts to fizzle. It's like, that's why we set boundaries earlier on to start to see their intentions. Because if I were to say, I've seen it, Ryan has had this because he's a little bit more avoided leaning and he dated a lot of very anxious women. He had one woman where he was on a hike. And he told her, I'm going to be on a hike in the morning. I'm doing 15 miles. I'll talk to you when I get back.

It was like 1 o'clock by the day. It got lunch and then he did and it was like one or two o'clock. He had a hundred and something messages from her being like, how could you fucking ignore me? You're probably with another girl right now freaking out. And it's like, that's not appropriate because that person's like, what are you talking about? I was in a dead zone for five hours on a hike on mushrooms.

Like I'm sorry, I don't owe this to you. But that is nothing about their connection. That's their discomfort of the silence means this. Versus, are we building to something? Do we have something that we're building towards? Like, okay, maybe we text every other day at the beginning. But then after three weeks, we start to text every day. And then eventually we have a consistent standing date.

And what progress are we making versus is it just staying the same? So on that, in regards to actually dating and being in a relationship, something that we wanted to ask. I had one last question on dating before we go into the relationships. It just came up in my head as we were talking. I wrote it down. What are your views on dating multiple people at the same time? I never know what you're meant like what the right. I know this is probably not a right or wrong answer.

Yeah, personally for me, I think it's a great idea so that you don't hyper fixate on one person. If you can't, right? Some people will say, I can't do that. It's like, okay, cool. Like, hey, please do what feels right to your nervous system. But when we have one, especially when it's, I haven't felt this in a long time. I haven't met anybody like this. What happens is they become the shiny object.

And the shiny object, your brain will do anything to be like, that's valuable. I want it. And then we hyperfixate and focus versus if you're dating multiple people, you're like, wow, look, I am, there are amazing people out there. I have two or three people that I'm going on dates with. You're single until you're in a relationship, until you have a conversation. Now, that doesn't mean you need to sleep with multiple people, right? You could do whatever feels comfortable.

But what that does mean is, like, when I met Ryan, I still had other dates. I was still, I was dating him and another guy at the same time to decide what worked for me. And I ended up going with him, right? If I had gone for the other guy, if it didn't work out, that doesn't mean that it was a mistake. I didn't miss out on anything. and I think a lot of people want to know like how do I know when to pick someone? And it's like you've got to trust your gut.

It might not work out, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you made the wrong decision. You're not going to have certainty in the moment, but you've got to follow what feels right in that moment based on the data that you've collected about this person. That's why we need time and we need to see them in different environments

so that we can determine. Because compatibility is a lot more than just we can sit on the couch and watch a funny movie. It's how do they handle conflict and repair? How do we want the same life, right? And we were talking about this earlier off-care. camera, the hardest breakup to go through is the one where there's nothing on paper that's wrong, right? Like that maybe it's because I have needs, this person can't satisfy, or I want something.

Like if Ryan had come to me after a year and a half saying, hey, you're a public figure, I don't want that life. I want to live in a cabin in the woods. We're not compatible then because we don't want the same things in life. There's nothing wrong with either one of us. That just means that we don't continue. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we speak about that a lot. We have a lot of, you know, people emailing in really struggling whether to like leave a relationship or not and we've always said we feel like it's much harder when there's no like big pinnacle moment of someone's cheated or someone's broken my trust when things are just sort of like okay or you're realizing that you're not really aligned or maybe you've got slightly different values i feel like that's when it's really hard when you're going through a breakup when the love is still there like i i'm in that situation at the moment like i have broken up with my boyfriend recently both absolutely still adore and love each other, but love is enough. And I think that people that believe that it is, I just think

aren't really emotionally intelligent enough to realize that you can love someone and realize that they're not right for you. 100%. That takes a lot of emotional growth to say, I think you're an amazing human. Because if love was enough, my dad would have changed. My mom would have been able to love him, whether it be a verb or an action or a feeling or an emotion. It's not enough. Because if it was, then the world would be a different place. What we have to remember is there is, that's why I hate if he wanted to, he would. Because what it does is it completely oversimplifies how humans actually behave, right? I would say the same thing.

Well, if you didn't want to be anxious, you wouldn't. And you're like, dude, what the fuck? Like, you don't understand my trauma, my triggers, what comes up for me, my nervous system dysregulation, what's happening in my brain. I have ADHD, so my brain works differently. What we have to understand, too, is want and do are two separate parts of the brain. There's a motivation. There's a dopamine receptor.

Like, it's a lot of different things. And I think, I've had that. I've had amazing partners. And I remember just looking at one. And he was, there's nothing wrong with this guy. But we wanted two completely different things in life. And I remember one day just going, this isn't working. And he looked at me and he goes, I know.

And we cried. And I remember we held each other and we emptied out his closet. And then we became friends after. And then I helped him get a dog. He got a new girlfriend. And I got a new girlfriend. And we moved on with her life. Sorry, it's paused.

Just because someone did your life. How did you say friends with this person? Did you ever do no contact you? Or did you not feel like you needed to? I didn't need it. we both agreed that this wasn't what we wanted and needed. We were both okay. How long did you been together?

About a year. Oh, wow. Sorry, there I am being like, oh, I can break no contact. Let's be friends. Obviously, I'm joking. I'm not going to do that. But like, I guess in my head, I always feel like, I might feel differently in a year.

I may be like, do you know what? I can be his friend, like, because I look back and he's an amazing guy and I absolutely love him. But I know for me, I will not move on if I'm in contact with him. And it would kill me if I knew that he was with someone else or going on a day, I would literally just be stuck. So I guess it just depends on how you feel with each person or. I had also gotten over it. Like I had started to, we had gone to a wedding together. And I realized in that moment, I don't want to be with this person. I was like, I love him as a

human, but I was like, you're not my person. And I can feel it in my gut. I was, yeah, I just, I was looking at other men at the wedding. And I was like, this is not right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I shouldn't be doing this if this is the person I want to be with. So the next week when we got back, and I just, I remember, and that's why I cried, like, because we loved each other, because we had so much respect for each other, but I, both of us were okay to let it go. If one person still has feelings, and the reason is, like, if I, if you were ending it because you're like, I love you more than anything, but this one thing bothers me and I can't get over

it, that's a different story than, hey, I think you're great, but this isn't, this isn't for us. Like, I think you're an awesome person. Because we had a really solid friendship, but that's kind of all we had. We didn't really have a great sex life. We weren't that into each other in that way. So that makes sense. I wasn't to him in that regard.

That's what I mean. But like when my ex after that, oh my God, we went no contact. I've never spoken to him again because I couldn't. I couldn't function because I was in love with this person and I wanted to do anything to make it work. Yeah. Including of losing myself. Yeah. No.

I understand that. So talking about when you're actually in a relationship, something that's come up that we wanted to ask you, obviously appreciate that. no relationship is perfect. You're going to go through ups and downs, go through conflict, whatever. At what point do you feel like if you're in that situation in your relationship and the conflict is quite high, trying to work out whether you are just really needing to maybe learn how each other communicate through conflict, grow together, try and get through that rough patch, or actually realizing that you're not compatible. I think what we have to look like is that their

progress, right? Me and Ryan, we've had a very similar issue since we dated. And it's just that hits this one very specific thing that really I struggle with. And it's because, like, he's got a history and a reason for it, but that doesn't mean it works for me. And so we had a lot of issues in the first year and a half of me being like, all right, you know what? We're just not able to do this. And so what we decided was we need a professional. So we had a couple's therapist. And now that we have a couple's therapist that we love, I'm starting to see the progress. I'm starting to see him implementing the tools that he's learning. I'm starting to see that we're working through this together, but I needed to see progress because if he just kept showing up the same every single time,

wasn't trying to go to therapy, wasn't trying to utilize any of the tools, just expected things to just magically become better out of nowhere, that's where I see it's being a problem. How growth-minded are both of you and how willing to invest? And the other part is, how okay are you if it doesn't work? Right? Like my therapist told us, like our couple's therapist said, I want you to know that if this doesn't work, I will help you both break up because you don't need to force staying together just because you love each other. We need to be realistic of, Sabrina, can you live with the way this person shows up? And Ryan, can you? And it's okay if not. I'm not going to change fundamentally who I am and neither is he, but there's one very specific

thing that disconnects us. And now he really has the tools and the bandwidth. All he wants to do is become that person. But do you notice how want isn't enough? Just because he wants it doesn't mean he's able to do it, but now he needs to implement and learn how to do that. That's on him. right? I had told him very clearly, this is not an ultimatum. I'm just saying if we can't get past this, that we should break up, right? We're done. What are we doing here? And he said, I want to do this, and I'm going to actually now learn how to do this because he has the capacity and the bandwidth for it. If I had met him five years prior, I don't think we would have. So you think it's also showing maybe that that willingness to do the growth, to make the changes, because...

Without that. Yeah, I guess if you're constantly arguing over the same thing, You can want to as much as... One's sort of showing up and trying to make those changes and the other one saying they want to but not doing anything about it, then there's no change. Then they're not reliable because their words and actions don't align.

That's just the reality. But like if we start to see progress and that's the important thing of being able to say, you know what? Actually, yeah, like it's 5%. Right? Like Ryan at first, it started with him just shutting down and not being able to hold any capacity.

And then we grew into him going, hey, I feel uncomfortable right now. Okay, that's problem. He's at least acknowledging. Then that moved into him staying in the space. Right? We had progress to where I was like, oh, that's different. That's different.

You didn't do this the last time. And I see that you're trying to implement the material that we're learning. That's what's important. Versus, to your point, right? If you have conflict, you need to regulate before you have repair. And if we don't have that, then we're just going to keep having the same thing over and over again, have makeup, sex and move on as if everything's okay, then it happens again, and we're both just going right back into our trauma. Yeah.

I guess it's quite difficult because, you know, it's that fine line. between you don't want to throw away relationship just because you're in this situation where there's a lot of conflict at the moment because if you're you know you could be in a relationship and always get to that 18 month mark or year and a bit and then you sort of like hit this sort of like battle of you know pointing the finger and conflict and oh do you know what this is a bit too much for me so I'm going to just call it quits because I realize like relationships take work and not a lot of people have the knowledge of how to deal with conflict in a health way or how to move forward or how to grow. So I guess it's that fine line between not running away

at the first hurdle, but also not holding on for too long and realizing there's no changes. And that, what does that do? Is that you have to trust yourself in order to determine that. Because you and I can't tell you what to do. You can't tell me what to do in my relationship. I have to be ready to say, I love myself more than the need to be loved by other people. And if I don't see progress, I'm okay to move on because there is someone out there that will show up in the ways that I need, right? Need versus want are two very different things. And so I think it's really important for us to look at that and to be okay. Like what makes a healthy and secure relationship? What makes it healthy and secure is that you know it could end. That you're not, that this isn't

the end all be all. There's not one shining knight in armor that's going to come in and save me, that at any point two adults can decide that's not working for them anymore. And every day we're making a conscious choice to choose each other. That's where it's really important here. Because everything else, can we figure it out? Maybe. But not if the person, Like if one person doesn't like to have conflict and the other one wants to talk about it, then fundamentally you're very different people and that's going to be really tough to get through. Versus we're going through a tough time, right? Like when I had the name change of the podcast, I was in a very deep depression.

But we made it through because I knew that this was a circumstantial situation and I needed to see the way my partner shows up when things don't do well, that works for me. I need that type of support. That doesn't mean I can't improve and say, hey, you know, moving forward, could we do this versus this? That's part of it. But I think fundamentally, if we have somebody that walks out every time you cry, it doesn't matter how much you beg and plead them to change. That's how they're handling the situation because there is a discomfort with your emotions. Do you believe that a relationship can survive infidelity? I have seen it survive infidelity, but I think the way that it survives infidelity is two reasons.

And I got yelled at for saying this on Jay Shetty, but I'll fucking say it here. I don't care. The two things are the person that did the cheating needs to do the actual work, right? I don't know if you guys know Jimmy on relationships. Jimmy Knowles is a really good friend of mine. He cheated on his wife and he came clean. And now they've been together still six years after they have a family. They have like I saw them the other day and his wife talked about it and was open about what happened because he did the work understood what caused him to do that. She understood her part as well of like she was shutting down.

She was icing him. I'm not saying it was her fault or not that she had it coming. But she took accountability of going, okay, right? I can see my part in it. Not everybody has a part. sometimes people are just doing that. But it was both people saying, okay, I want to learn from this.

And then the biggest thing, she didn't hold it over his head. You know, like if you, here's a thing, you don't have to take them back. You can move on. You don't have to do it. But if you decide, you can't be, every time they do something,

you're starting to attack them because they didn't answer you for 20 minutes. Or you're going through their phone every single hour. You're going through their Instagram, finding the girls and all this. It's like, then you know what? Don't get back with this person.

Because if you can't trust them, that's okay. You have every right to say they broke your trust. But if you decide to try again, then maybe we start anew and let this person earn your trust back, but that doesn't mean you have to play detective. Because what that is is you're just hypervigilant, waiting to find when they're going to do it again, then you're not actually living in the relationship. And I have respect if you say you don't want to be with them. That's fine. 100%. But if you decide to, then you decide to commit to the relationship again. And that's both

people doing that. Yeah, that's pretty much what we say all the time. We get a lot of emails. Like, do you think like I can say with him and we always say like it really depends on how you are as a person how are you going to show up if they give the you know the remorse and want to learn and grow and you know taking accountability for it are you going to use it against them are you going to always live in the past because if you are and you're that type of person it's not going to work no I read the comments because I said that on jay's show and the people like there was a lot of people that agreed with me but you can tell the ones like one person was like my therapist says different she says it's fine for me to go through my his phone.

And somebody responded going, your therapist sounds like shit. It's just because your therapist says it's okay. And the amount of people were like, no, he lost my trust. Of course I could look through his phone. It's like, no, you're also part of the problem then. Yeah, it becomes. Because then you're not actually, it's not a healthy way to live. Like, your nervous system is literally in flight or flight just waiting for the next

thing to happen. You either opt in and you opt out, like, you're 100%. I mean, with that in mind, do you believe that someone can truly change in a relationship or do you think that a leopard never changes their spots? I 100% think people can change. That's the point of all the work that we do, right? Is that we can evolve and grow. Do I think their character will change?

No, character is destiny. Like, my personality is my personality. So if I'm super goofy and ridiculous, I don't think I'm going to change that. Or I can shut down and become a different version of myself, but I've lost myself in that way. You hurt in relationships, but you heal in relationships. And that's why whoever said relationships are easy can fuck off.

That is not how it works. Relationships should have a flow where you're, feel like you're moving and making progress and working in a direction. But if we look at it like a bank account, if I'm constantly in the red because I'm depleted and I'm losing and I'm losing, well, then I'm not actually in the green where I'm starting to benefit and feel like this is something that works for me. So I think if we can't change, then we're fucked. But I do believe that people can change. But I think that it's more that you evolve and you grow into the person of who you truly are, the secure version of who you are in the right relationship. That's the change we want to

because you're both allowing each other, right? I've never had a man that held space for me in the way Ryan does. So that is helping me to evolve and grow to go, oh, that was just what I was taught, but that doesn't mean that that's the actual. Thank you for giving me a reconfirmation experience so that I could grow into a better version of myself. What is the relationship advice that nobody wants to hear? I think I just, I blew my load and I said it before.

I think the relationship advice that most people don't want to hear is that it's okay if it ends. That doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with either. of you that a healthy and beautiful, secure relationship is contingent on the fact that you know that you're choosing this person every single day, that relationships take work and that it's not, if you don't want drama, you want it to be easy. You just want the highlight reel and you want all the positive, then you're not emotionally intelligent or available enough in order to understand what it takes. Because I don't know anybody that's been married and with each other for years on end

that says it's easy. That says they don't have a fight. It's like then somebody is not opening their mouth and saying what's coming up for them. But I think relationships do take work. It's a matter of how much in the red or in the green am I with the work? Is the work that we're both understanding each other or is the work that I'm trying to change the other person? Yeah. Can we actually, like one thing I do want to talk about, which I guess is relevant for me,

and we do tell a lot of people to do this if they go through a breakup and they don't have kids with someone, no contact and the actual science behind it and why it's good to do it and how someone should do it and really what the best ways are to get over a breakup? You're not doing no contact. to get the other person back. That's manipulative.

You're doing no contact because it takes 21 days for your brain to balance out and withdraw off of the dopamine and the consistency and knowing that you had this person. That's why the first 21 days feel so intense. And what makes it even more intense is the narrative and the story that we've created about why it didn't work.

What does it mean about me? That just prolongs the inevitable. Jill Bolt Taylor is a neuroscientist that says, it takes 90 seconds for an emotion to run its course. But the problem is we restart that clock every time the thought, the thought, the thought, the thought. If you were to actually sit in your body while you're crying and give it, I feel a shape, I feel a color, I feel a texture, and really just focus on the emotion that's coming up.

Within about two minutes, you will feel it decrease because you're allowing yourself to process through it. And you're not just gaslighting yourself and putting yourself down and not validating yourself. What gives you more dopamine during no contact is showing yourself self-compassion. Given everything I've been through, it makes total sense that I would feel this. I was with this person for a year and a half and now I have nothing of them. of course that's going to make me feel sad. You're allowed to. No contact is allowed to be tough for you.

You're allowed to struggle, but that doesn't mean that you have to contact them because that's us just trying to get them to make us feel better. We do no contact so that we can see things different. That's like having a snow globe. When the breakup's happening, everything's everywhere. The 21 days, the minimum of three weeks, allows all of the dust to settle so you can see things a little bit more clearly and you can do this. I always like to say, when you're going through no contact, don't just remember your why.

Remember your who? who are you doing this for? Are you doing this for the little you that always felt like they were dismissed and overlooked? Well then make that promise to them that you're not going to do that by asking somebody else to validate and to tell you that it's okay to move on because closure is a myth and closure is bullshit. You give yourself the closure when you identify that what was what you had wasn't working for you and that's okay. Yeah, geez. Tash needed to hear that. Well, no, just I think, just adding on that, what would, what advice would you give to someone? Like they're in no contact, but like what other things are good to not necessarily start doing the work, but really like someone has

just broken up with their partner. They are on the floor and they want to know what they need to do throughout the next month, not just the no contact, but to help them through that sort of like real heartbreak. The first thing we need to do is learn to regulate our nervous system because when you're on the floor crying and in a ball and you probably don't feel the age that you are. You probably feel like a younger version that feels dismissed or rejected because the reality is if you're in a healthy and secure relationship then you're not going to be totally blindsided because you would have been communicating and talking and understanding what's coming up for you you're aware and cognizant there were issues oftentimes where we hold on to it is because who am i to say

i don't want this we start to attack ourselves we start to shame and blame ourselves and i would say this regulate your nervous system even if it's going for a walk doing the shakes having some sour candy doing a cold like putting your hands in ice the mammalian divers response to do that for a minute or two, to bring yourself back to the present moment. Then I want you to start to look at the narrative. What is the story, right? You've got to take the shine off of this person.

What made them so amazing and incredible? What makes them the love of your life that you'll never have ever again? And then what is the story that we've created about ourselves? I'm not good enough. I knew they'd find someone else. I'm never going to meet anybody.

It's like, so that's not actually about the connection anymore. It's about what this means about you and that their quote unquote rejection of the relationship, we're internalizing it. I think you've been honestly, you've given so much amazing advice. At the end of each of our episodes, we ask our guests to give us a positive affirmation,

something to inspire our followers. So do you have any more? I mean, I know you have a lot of wise words, but any more wise words? I think for me, I am worthy and deserving of love and I'm no longer performing to receive it. Oh, I love that.

I actually love that. It's so true. Yeah, thank you so much. It has been... I could have spoken to you for hours. Yeah, I feel like we're going to definitely at some point need a part too. But, like, guys, if you don't already follow Sabrina, you need to go get following her.

And when's your new book out in the UK? October 13th. And go listen to her podcast as well. It's one of my, the podcasts I listen to religiously. Amazing. Like, it is amazing. Thank you so, so much. Thank you so much.

Thanks, guys. Bye. Bye. Thanks, guys.