Not Skinny But Not Fat - Amanda Knox: New Hulu Show and The Story You Haven't Heard

Episode Date: August 26, 2025

Amanda Knox joins me to talk about The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, the new Hulu series she executive produced alongside Monica Lewinsky. We get into what it’s like to watch Tell Me Lies star Grace Van Patten play her, the crazy media frenzy that surrounded the case, false confessions under coercion, surviving prison, and why this version finally feels closest to the truth. She also opens up about moving forward and making amends with Patrick Lumumba and Meredith Kercher’s family.This episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct, or indirect financial interest in products, or services referred to in this episode.Let OLLY support you & your crew this season. Shop at OLLY.com or retailers nationwide.Download the free Rakuten App or go to Rakuten.com to start saving today.Elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with Quince. Go to Quince.com/notskinny for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty-five-day returns.To explore coverage, visit ASPCApetinsurance.com/NOTSKINNY.Right now, IQBAR is offering our special podcast listeners twenty percent off all IQBAR products—including the sampler pack—plus FREE shipping. To get your twenty percent off, text NOTSKINNY to 64000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details.Earn points on rent and around your neighborhood, wherever you call home, by going to joinbilt.com/notskinny. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you.Curious about ByHeart? Head to ByHeart.com and use code NOTSKINNY30 to save 30% off your first subscription order for a limited time. ByHeart is also available at Target, Walmart and major retailers nationwide. Check us out in stores today! Additional terms and conditions apply.Produced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a dear media production. Welcome back to the Not Skinny Bonafat podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Hirsch, and I still can't believe that I get to chat with some of my favorite stars on my very own podcast, where you'll feel like you're just talking shit with your best friends in your living room. Hey guys. Happy Tuesday. Welcome back to another episode of

Not Skinny but Not Fat, the podcast that sounds like it's about weight loss or freaking, I don't know. What the fuck, Amanda? The fuck Amanda. They came up with this dumbass name that's stuck with you forever.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. You guys, I am recording this with a sheet mask on that I hope doesn't break me out because I've never used this before. and it is Friday right now. We're heading into the weekend. Noah has been home this whole week. For parents, you all know the in between the end of camp and the start of school,

like the world likes to give you a little test and say, no, you have to deal with your kids. You can't just ship them off to, you know, different activities. And, you know, they have to be home at some point in time. So, you know what? And I have to be honest, like I can relate to, like both sides of parenting. Like the other day, I went out to dinner with my friend.

She made fun of me. She was like, I literally threw up when you got asked a question, what gives you the most FOMO? And you said, not being with my kids. She was like, that was so triggering for me. Like, she was like, I hated that. And I was like, I'm sorry. Like, that's what I felt like when I answer questions, I really answer the first thing

that comes to mind. So when I was asked that, I was like, the last time I felt like, oh, I wish I was there was when I wasn't with my kids. And I saw like a picture of my kids. or everybody at my kids. But I can also go the other way and really relate to memes that are like, one just came up.

It was like when your kids go back to school and it was like huge party, huge, like, screaming, excited. But of course, like, life isn't black and white. There's gray. There's in between. There's feeling two feelings at once and all the things. So I was really dreading this in between time

because I remembered from past years how hard it was. Like, when they don't. and have anything to do and you have to really be like mommy day camp and it's hot and it's summer even though it's not really hot it was literally like 60 degrees here the other day anyway but like you know lower your expectation guys that's another mantra of mine in life like i was expecting the worst and this week has been the best we've had so much fun with noah his temperament was just the best that it's been i guess because he's not getting those high energy vibes and

going to camp where you're like being rowdy all day and then coming back and having that be a huge kind of shock trigger system. The now you have to be chill. He's just kind of at this level five of chill all day. And I'm like, I'm obsessed with you. Like this is so fun. We've had cute lunch dates,

brunch dates, like a little bit of running around time. Just had the best time. So I hope it continues this way, which it won't when I post that all of you were like, you're going to jinx yourself. I'm like, yeah,

you're right you know when you enter the right passcode on your iPhone but it's still like no that's incorrect and you're like i'm putting in the fucking same number five times and that's the number don't you fucking lie to me anyway this sheet mask is making me rowdy him in important news before we get into today's guest millie bobby brown bon jovi is a mommy mamacita which i've seen a lot of So she and her husband, Jake Bon Jovi, son of John Bon Jovi, adopted a baby girl, which I feel like is so on brand for Millie. She has a gazillion animals. She adopts them. She fosters them.

She cares for them. She does all these things. She has a huge farm. She's just like this mama goose, mama bear, whatever you will call it. Like, I wouldn't be surprised if this post was about like a baby pig, but it's actually a baby girl because they say that. Oh, it's so funny because they write at the end of the announcement, which is so weird because the announcement looks like. like an ad for like an old person home. Like I don't know why they didn't just like put a cute picture of them.

I get not showing the baby, but like they could just what something. This thing is weird. Go to her profile. It's literally like a weird tree. Anyway, it was funny because at the end they write and then there were three love comma, Millie and Jake von Jovi.

I think there were people that thought the name of the baby was love like love Millie and Jake von Jovi. But I think it was just like like love Amanda. We're smart over her. Anyway, she is 21, which is a baby having a baby. A lot of people are asking how an adoption agency is giving a baby a baby, but like, you know, she's not a regular baby. She's a really rich baby.

So maybe that matters. And maybe her parents said they were helping. We don't know the deal. Okay. What I do know is like what I've seen from her, which feels like she's ready, you know, which feels like she's a mommy. And, you know, when you're in the industry for her, from age like 10, you do mature really quickly.

These people are around adults all the time. They're not, listen, when I was 21, no, no, no, no. Like, bitch wasn't ready till 32. Anyway, that was the most important and interesting thing, I think, this week, by the way. Another important and interesting thing from this week is that I started watching the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox.

It's on Hulu. And I, listen, this. this whole Amanda Knox case happened in, like, 2007. She studied abroad in 2007 or when she was accused of her roommates. Murder got imprisoned in freaking Italy for four years. I always said, let's make this about me. I studied abroad in 2009. Like this was all happening.

I think Amanda is like around my age. This all, I remember living this as most of us do. So seeing this again being on TV, but in the form of a, of a, of a show. show. She is played by Grace Van Patten, who we love, adore from Tell Me Lies, by the way. She is stunning in this. She is amazing. And the show is so good. And even though we know a lot of the facts, there are a lot of facts. We don't know, especially if you haven't read Amanda Knox's books and got all the details. And again, Grace is just so amazing at portraying her, I think. And it really just taking you on this ride of like anxiety and emotional rollercoaster. But we already had Grace Man Patton on the pod. So it's not her today, you guys. It is Amanda Knox. Yes, Amanda Knox is here today.

And we're discussing it all. We're getting into all of that from the insane headlines to her new show, The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox now on Hulu. And I'm so excited for you guys to hear this conversation. So enjoy. Amanda Knox is here, you guys. And I spoke about this this week because I started the show as the way. as the world has on Hulu.

It's called The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox. Grace Van Pettin plays you. Stunning. She was here too. She was here right before she left for Budapest. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh.

And she was like, I'm like, oh my God, that's so cool when she told us about the project. I was like, that is insane. And what a leap from what she has done and so different. And you'll have to have her back on to talk about the whole process because, wow, I think that, I mean, you know, I didn't know her personally before all of this. Like I saw that she was, you know, I saw from her previous work that she's very versatile. She was very professional.

But like the journey that she had to go on to take on this role. Yeah. Just the emotional journey of like this very extreme circumstance, the worst experience of my life, the best experiences of my life, this wide age range. Like she had to show this like personal evolution from, like, really young, innocent, you know, 20-year-old to, like, haunted, you know, 35-year-old with a mission and then to do it in English and Italian.

Like, she worked her ass off for this role. Wow. And I'm so proud of her. And I hope that she gets all the awards for her work on it because she freaking deserves it. And I feel like if any, like, there are so many reasons to watch this show. But, like, of all of those that I was not, like, expecting, it's like, Like, this is a huge moment for Grace. Like, watch her, like, watch the story, but watch her performance.

But watch her performance. I'm telling you, I was getting physical anxiety, watching her get anxiety. You know, like, I feel like she plays that so well, the anxious and everyone's screaming at her at the same time. Like, it's almost you feel like you are there. Well, and that was the whole point. I mean, you're referring to the interrogation scene, which is the, the, the, the big scene in the second episode, which is those that have released, those are the two that

have released the first and second episode. And I mean, talk about just like the emotional journey her character goes on in those two episodes. Like she comes to Perugia, just bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, you know, ready to have the world happen to her. And then the world happens to her. And it like bears its weight on her. And she's like having like to navigate all of that in in a state of, like, confusion and not, like, and miscommunication and just awkwardness. And, like, she plays all of that so, so well. You almost see the, like, no, she actually doesn't get that this is going this way. Exactly.

Which I was, I'm around your age, and I, like, I studied abroad in Barcelona in 2009. You were in 2007. Like, I lived, we lived your story. You know what I mean? Like, remember it. thought about it, the press of it all, everyone talking about it, but never were we able to see it from really your point of view? And I think that's what's so special about the show.

But seeing her play those moments of, yeah, because she didn't think it would have, she had no idea until she doesn't have any idea, like what the show portrays at this moment is she doesn't even know why she thinks she's a witness until. Yes. I'm saying she and it's you. Yeah, yeah. But I've also had to do that, like, different, like, this, like, break myself off from, like, okay, yes, Amanda in this moment, it's like, I can, now it's really nice because I can have, like, Grace stand in for me and my brain sometimes. And it's like the relief of having to just, like, relive the actual memories. It sort of takes the edge off. Because I can be like, yes, like, Grace, Amanda, me, walks into this room with a completely different idea about what is happening. She's just answer. a few questions while she's waiting for her boyfriend to be done answering a few questions.

She's been doing the same thing, answering those same questions over and over again throughout, you know, five days of questioning, all because, you know, she's trying to help the police figure out what happened to her roommate. She has no idea what happened, you know, like she doesn't know and she has no idea that she's about to enter into a trap. And it's this psychological journey of like coming to that realization over and over and sort of like pushing back and being like, wait, wait, why are you talking to me like this? You know, like, and not understanding

why they're angry at her, they're angry at her because I don't speak Italian well enough. Like the language as of you, first of all, I feel like that adds to the anxiety, which I'm sure was this was a, obviously what happened, but also a choice to really throw us into it. Yes. Like that's what's happening.

You're being screamed at Italian. You don't understand what they're saying. Then there was a translator somewhere. saying it in English and you're trying to think like and that's so by the way that comes across greatly but that bogged me I was like get it first of all at the beginning get her a translator yeah get her a translator like yeah how are you expecting but it was that peruja at that time we're like sorry we don't speak English yeah even though this is this is not Rome right you know this isn't the kind of you know this isn't the big police force this is a small town right and this is the

this is the people who are there these are the law enforcement authority figures. Like, there are only so many people who actually speak English. And so, especially when they call you in the middle of the night, there's only so many people who are going to be awake

to call to speak English. And clearly, I mean, I think the thing that also the show really shows that was unbeknownst to me at the time is that the police were targeting me

from very early on, but in this sort of like unspecified way, like they hadn't fully wrapped their minds around like what they thought it happened. They just were very convinced early on that I knew something that I wasn't saying. And so they thought if we can just put her in the right conditions under the right amount of pressure, we're going to crack her and we're going to get the truth out of her. And that's what they're thinking.

And in the meantime, I'm just like, I literally have no idea what happened to my roommate. And I'm telling you everything I could possibly know. And I don't understand why that doesn't seem to be enough for you. like I'm giving you everything I have and there's nothing more to give until they just convince me that I'm crazy. Like it's just...

And by the way, this happens. Like my husband is super into, you know, like so many people, like murder mysteries and crime junkies and all those things. So I've watched so many like documentaries with him and so many interrogational moments and this is a thing.

This wasn't just a you thing. This happens where they're trying to pin it on somebody lead it that way, crack them through this like intense, you know, coercive. Coercive. Questioning process. It involves lies and involves gaslighting.

Yeah, no, it's that, like, of all of the scenes in this whole series, I feel like that is the scene where my advocate self is coming through because I'm like, there's been so much resistance on the part of just, I think, the general public, but especially law enforcement, to recognize that, like, what happens behind closed doors and interrogation rooms is not okay. Like, it's not actually doing justice, and it's thwarting the course of justice. And there are very common sense, like,

things that we can do to prevent the kind of thing that happened to me from happening. And, like, for those who think that this was just a thing that happened in Italy, the exact same kind of interrogation techniques happened here in the United States. And so it was really, really important for me. And obviously, everyone that I worked with, you know, K.J. Steinberg, the creator and showrunner, she did so much research and she

talked to so many experts and just to get like a sense of like trying to understand what is the psychology, not just of the person who's being interrogated, who's being led to imagine alternative realities and like being led to believe that these alternative realities might actually be her real memories instead of the ones that she thinks are her real, like this whole like psychological, yeah, this whole psychological like mind. games that are being played, but also, like, what is the psychology of the interrogators? How are they leading themselves to believe a story? And how does that story become this bolder that gains momentum as it rolls faster and faster down the hill? Have you connected with other people that have been in your

situation? Oh, 100%. Yeah. In fact, I have a podcast called Hard Knocks. And I've done, if you go to Amanda Knox.com, I've done a whole big series about false confessions where I've interviewed other people who have gone through the exact same experience. And so you get like, it's a very common thing. And like weirdly, much more in like high stakes cases, you'd think that maybe like if you're accused of a lesser crime, like, and this is an issue with like the guilty plea sort of situation where somebody is like, well, no one's going to believe me. So I might as well just say I'm guilty and I'll just get it over with.

It's a minor crime, whatever. But like you think that in a case where you're being accused of murder and, like, you think that in a case where you're being accused of murder and, like, your life is at stake. You would never, you know, implicate yourself. But no, like, that's when that's when the police really start using this, like, very pressured technique to make you feel like you are crazy or there's no way to escape and you just have to tell them what they want to hear. Tell me why you decided to do the show now or how it came up or has it come up before and you didn't want to do it or tell us a little about that. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, ever since I came home from prison, I've had people come to me and say, your story is insane.

We would love to tell your story. And I resisted for a really long time because it didn't really feel like my story, right? Like, what happened? You know, two young women go to study abroad in Prussia Italy. They're, you know, 2021. and only one of them survives, the end. Like, what a horrible, like, what a horrible story that has, that says nothing about both my roommate, Meredith, and me.

Like, it's just a bad thing that happened to us, and only one of us got to live to tell the tale and is, you know, now living with survivor's guilt for it. You know, like, that doesn't feel like anything that said anything about me as a person. And so I didn't really feel comfortable participating in anything because, I was just, you know, a victim of this circumstance and got twisted into a villain, but that was just another way that I was victimized. And so it was just, it just felt wrong. And it felt just too, like, trauma-y. And it wasn't until I started really processing what this experience meant to me in my real life and how I was feeling propelled forward by it. And I started

making decisions, like the decision to reach out to my prosecutor and to, like, try to make a connection and try to understand him was when I felt like I truly was making the first move in my adult life in response to this story. A thing that really said something about who I was. I was taking action. I was not just reacting to a bad situation. I was taking action. Tell me about your decision to do that. Yeah. To reach out to your prosecutor. Well, and something I think the series does really well and something that was really important to me and Monica Lewinsky, who's executive producer on the show, is where this show is exploring the long tail of trauma. Like the trauma isn't just like the overwhelming thing that happened in this moment. It's this thing that you carry with you into your life long, long afterwards as you're processing it and you're trying to make sense of it.

And, like, one of the things that I was really tortured by in the aftermath, you know, even after being, like, vindicated and freed and no longer hunted was just, like, why? Why did this, like, and this is the question that any person who's been hurt asks, why? Why? Why did you hurt me? Why me? You know, like, I had, like, there's no reason for you have to have believed that I had anything to do with this crime. Like, truly, it was a huge mistake. Like, what, what was going on your? mind, how did you look at a girl who had no motive and no precedent and no evidence that put me at the crime scene? Like, why did you think there's my rapist and murderer? Like, why? When there was clear evidence who actually committed this crime. And I didn't want to subscribe to some of the answers to that question that were coming my way, which was the law enforcement and prosecution in Prussia is corrupt and evil, and they don't care what the truth is. All they care about is their reputation.

And so, like, they're sitting there watching an innocent girl suffer these horrible consequences and they just don't care. Like, I didn't believe that was true. Yeah. I didn't believe that was true. I do not think that there's that many psychopaths in the world. What was your hunch? Like, what was your guess?

My guess, and I think that this leads to, why the show is truly relevant to this day because I think it's a really important lesson that I learned is that there are people who have, who believe in themselves and believe in their perception of reality so much that they are willing to impose that reality on other people and cause harm in the process but feel justified and righteous at the same time. Like you can have the very best intentions based upon your context and your perspective and your ideology and try to enforce that reality on other people and in the process harm them. And I think that that is something that we do like we see in the world all the time. Like if you think of just like how our, you know, our country is to this day, like it feels like we are living in a world where there are people who have completely alternate realities that they are living in.

where we can't even agree on what the facts are anymore, much less an interpretation of the facts or how to approach those facts. So how do you have a conversation with somebody who believes that the world is the opposite of what you believe? And how do you derive truth out of that? How do you establish what truth is in a world that is just flooded with misinformation?

And I think a perspective that is derived, it is like a motivated perspective. So you think that they, he really thought his truth within himself is that he was right. So he believed it. Yes. Wasn't like he didn't believe and he was just like, let's pin it. He believed it. Yes, he believed it.

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Go to quince.com slash not skinny for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Quince. Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash not skinny to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quins.com slash not skinny. Hi, I'm Caroline Stambrie, star of the Real Housewives of Dubai, entrepreneur, wife, and mother of three. Once divorced and now remarried to a much younger man, uncut and uncensored with Caroline Stambray follows me

as I live my life unapologetically and shows you that there is life after 40. I discuss everything from relationships, health, wellness, business, parenting, friendships. I'm here to let you know that not only is there a life after divorce, but you have the power to make it your best one yet, just like I did. Listen to all new episodes every Wednesday, anywhere you get your podcasts. And we're back. I asked you before, like, what were, you know, the versions of the truth out there?

What were people saying? What were people thinking? What was your hunch? Sexism? Sure. And, yes, so now we're getting into context, right? So, like, now we have to recognize. that there's cultural differences

and there are, like, you know, there's misogyny in our culture as well, but like there's a certain flavor of misogyny within the Italian culture that I just was unfamiliar with and unprepared for. It meant that when I, as a young American girl, especially from, like, progressive Seattle, show up in this small, very Catholic,

very traditional kind of town, I stick out a little bit like a sore thumb without even realizing it and not understanding how certain ways, like certain energy that I put out or certain ways that I communicate are not going to be received the way that I normally experience them receive. Right. And so, and then, of course, there's the language barrier and there's the experience barrier. I mean, if you just look at me and my prosecutor who are like these huge characters in the show,

like one thing that we've really tried so hard to do is show not just my context. But his. You do. What is his world? What is going on and, like, what is informing the lens through which he sees reality? And it's a very different world and a very different culture and context than what I am. Like, where I'm coming from. You're doing him kind of like a, you're doing like a nice deed for him that you're doing this.

Do you know what I mean? I mean, I feel like I'm doing the ethical thing. Like, nice or not, yes. Yes, it's nice. Because it's been like, he. He's an asshole, you know, he's massage, but you're right. The show really does show him, his family, like things that have happened in his past, the kind of, it's sort of like you're looking for a reason. Like, again, we're looking for the why. And I'm looking for the truth. Right? Like, I feel like the world is flooded with easy answers that are just not true. And so what, what does it cost? Like, what do you have to do to really confront the truth? And sometimes it means putting aside all of your pain in order to try to see someone clearly, which doesn't mean that you don't stand up for yourself. And it doesn't mean that you don't confront that person with a reality that

they may not be ready and willing and prepared for. But you can do that and you can stand up for yourself while also being kind and giving the person the benefit of the doubt, which was the very thing that I didn't get in the first place. It was shocking the moment in the show where the woman walks in that's working with a prosecutor, and she's like, bad news. Like, the only DNA at the crime scene was not, was Rudy Good Days. And it was like having her say like bad news, not good news. Not, oh, interesting. Yeah.

Oh, this should inform us. Right, right. This will move us forward into the, you know, in the truth, in the direction of the truth. It was like, oh, this doesn't align with our theory. Yes. And this is going to be bad for us. be bad because we already spun this whole this whole sex orgy whatever yeah i love that you picked up that those that like a minor thing no because that i was like that's like a that was that is good writing right

right that's when like so much is conveyed in such an offhand remark so much right right exactly yeah i love that i love inside baseball behind the scenes like hearing your story obviously but also how you made your story. By the way, you were executive producer as well. So how involved were you in the... Oh, I mean, soup to nuts I was involved. And I mean, I have to again, like this experience

could have been a very different experience. Like Hollywood is not typically involving sources with like not giving sources quite the opportunity that I was given today. I mean, I feel like, you know, Monica, obviously Monica Lewinsky is forging the path forward.

But I think even so, I feel like I was given more creative input than anyone in my position has ever been given creative input. And that's because my partners, you know, K.J. Steinberg, the creator and showrunner, Warren Littlefield, the lead producer, you know, all the people at Hulu and Disney, they really, like, I could sit down with them and convey, like, this is what's important to me. This is why the scene, you know, should be the way it is. And I feel like I was really valued as a creative partner. So like from anything from casting decisions to talking about how do we break this story to being on set and giving, you know, notes to, you know, all of that. I felt very

creatively embraced and very involved, you know, giving notes on all of the, like all the different versions of the episodes. I've seen every single one. Yeah. And so to finally arrive here, I get to have the satisfaction not just of watching the world live my, experience, but also watching the world, like, enjoy the creative work that was put into it. Like, I can't tell you how satisfying it was at the premiere to, like, be in a room full of strangers, also freaking nerve-wracking, but who are responding emotively to, you know, the jokes that were put in and, you know, and the little moments, like the little moment we just talked about, but I was on TikTok and, you know, it's probably wild for you because it's such a,

you know, serious topic, such an important part of our kind of collective history and our core memory. But seeing people pick up on like the minutia, like I saw this girl do like a green screen, you know, TikTok about the show. And she was like talking about the moment with the blood on the on the bath rag. And she was like, did she just say, I'm not going to clean her period blood, you know, like, so she was making light of that moment. Like, duh, like, why would you clean? your roommate's period, blood. So people were kind of enjoying that moment of, did that actually happen? Did you actually say that line?

Yeah, sure. I mean, like, when I was, again, like I was being asked these questions over and over, and it felt like every single choice that I had made that morning was being always called into question, like, oh, why did you go into your house when you saw that the door was open? Like, even just something like that. Like, I would say, oh, I went, like, I came home. I saw the door was open. And I went inside and to check and see, like, oh, is anyone here?

Yeah. And they were like, well, why would you ever go into your house when the door is open? It's like, well, what do you mean? Like, I didn't, I wasn't expecting there to be a murder inside. Like, I had no idea. Like, that's just, I feel like it was one of the things that the show does really well is it also shows how when you do not have all of the information, how that changes the way you approach a situation. So it's like for the police to say, well, next. Now we know that there's a murder in there.

Now we're going to judge your behavior based upon our knowledge that there's a murder in there. Well, you're not putting yourself in my shoes. Like, I'm a 20-year-old kid who's never had anything bad happened to me in my life. When I see a front door is open, I just assume that someone accidentally left the front door open. I don't assume that something bad has happened. You know, like it's just a completely different mindset. And when you're, and I can like, and I can put myself in the police's shoes and think, well, they spend their, Every, they live and breathe every single day with the worst of human experiences.

They see all of the bad stuff and they assume always the worst of everyone. And that's just not who I was. Are you like that now? Like, have you changed in that way? Like, do you think of situations through that lens? Good question. I mean, I think the, yes, like, I'm not there what, and I think the show does a really incredible job of doing this, is showing how.

I am changed from this experience. I am no longer just the like Disney princess version of myself that I was when I went to Italy. And that a part of me like did not survive the experience, right? A part of me didn't get to come home. And I had to then evolve as a human being with this like this, this darkness that had entered into my life. And I tried not to let that darkness completely take over me. And it was almost like that that version of me that just really believed in the goodness of the world is reasserting itself, but from also a deep place of like grief and mourning. So yeah, the person I am today is a much more reflective.

And sad, like, sadness is a big, like, you know, I loved watching Inside Out. And, like, you know, joy was absolutely at the reins when I was on my way to Prouge, Italy. And I think that for a very long time, sadness then took the reins of my life. And now they're sort of holding hands and at the reins together. and I feel like a much better person for that. I feel like I'm a much more effective person in the world for that because I also understand, I understand in a way that I did not understand people's pain.

And that makes me also really receptive to the pain of everyone who experienced this like perfect storm of a tragedy. Yeah. Right? Like I'm not just acutely aware of my own pain. Like, I'm acutely aware of everyone's. And that's something that was really important for me in the making of this show is it's like, one, I don't want to cause more pain. And two, I want to honor the pain that has been experienced because it's real.

And the way that this story has been told for so long has been just so shallow and exploitative and scandalous. And that's not like at the heart of the story are real people who, yes, lived. a very extreme experience, and some of them did not survive, but, like, they're real people. And they're still, like, the majority of us are still living with the consequences of choices that were made out of, you know, fragile egos and, you know, not complete understandings of the scenario. Like, I think it's really important for people to know how much we didn't know at the very beginning. I remember obviously living this and watching it on the news and, you know, one of the

biggest, like, accusations of the public was, like, the way you, like, behaved around the police officers at first. And Grace does this on the show as well. It's like the yoga and the police station or the kissing Raphaelie outside that the police kind of raised an eyebrow. How do you, like, today sitting here, are you mad at a... Amanda, 20-year-old Amanda, like, why, like, if you didn't have, because I'm just thinking of me, like, how I would, you know, self-talk and, and blame myself, like, why'd you, like, do you connect to that moment of what you were doing and ever think, if I didn't do, if I didn't have these, like, weird moments of maybe acting, not like people expected, maybe this wouldn't have snowballed this way. No. No. I mean, I used to give myself a lot harder of a time. I'm before when the whole world was still, I mean, in some ways, the whole world, no, not the whole world. In some ways, some people still victim blame me for what happened and say, like, well, even if you had nothing to do with your roommate's murder, you were basically asking for it, like, by the way that you were acting. And like, there are, there's a contingency of people who assert that, but I just know that that's not true. Like, I wasn't actually acting like a guilty person. Like, there was a guilty person who did act in a very guilty way by fleeing the country and assuming a false identity. Like that, you know, like by throwing away his, you know, all his clothes and all the evidence of having committed this crime.

Like that's guilty behavior. Being comforted by my boyfriend, stretching after hours of questioning on hard plastic chairs. This is not guilty behavior. I feel like instead, what I've really come to recognize is. is that, and this is something we try to really show in the show, is it's like you see what you want to see. And you can, especially in a world that loves finding fault in women, if you just look at any of our behavior, you're going to find something you don't like. You're going to find something that when you look through the filter of your fault finding filter, you're going to

say, oh, I would not have done that. Or, oh, this, I'm going to, like, impose some, like, oh, she's kissing her boyfriend because she doesn't care about her roommate. It's like, no. Maybe she's in shock and she does very much care and her boyfriend is responding to the fact that she's looking like a deer in headlights and is trying to like bring her back and comfort her. Like I feel like the world was very, very primed from past experience. And look at us now. We're even worse. Yeah. I mean. And like to like just cherry pick little moments of people's lives and say, oh, let's find fault in her for this reason. I mean, to this day, you know, like even just like I I mean, I can't imagine.

I saw the Daily Mail, you know, talking about the premiere and, like, they took one photo of me, like, you know, laughing with my husband and being like, look at her laughing her ass off at the, you know, the premiere. Oh, got the Daily Mail. You know, so it's just like this, I'm so, like, used to people trying to find fault in me. Yeah. And I'm just not buying it anymore. I'm just not. I'm, like, so not convinced by how obviously bullshit it is. Yeah.

That it's just like, you know. I mean, the thing is now I'm thinking, this is 2007. Maybe there was Facebook. Yeah, so yes. There was Facebook, but it was like super early, early days. Right, because Facebook was like maybe like 2006. The iPhone came out that year, the first ever iPhone. So social media is absolutely at its infancy.

The tabloid media, this traditional media, is in this crisis point where they're trying to retain attention because it's being dispersed now online and they don't know, like, their whole economic structure is being called into question. And then all of a sudden, this perfect little story that they can just exploit the crap out of. This was like a tabloid moment. This was a tabloid moment. And I think an example of how media was using a story to try to salvage itself and justify itself, but at the expense of the truth. You know, Amanda, it really makes me think about how much has not change today because the Amber heard of it all. I mean, so many other, not exact, you know, cases in what happened, but the villainization of women, the media, I mean, I couldn't imagine

if social media was where it is today with the TikToks and the Instagram, how, I mean, who knows? Maybe they would have Karen Reid, I mean, maybe they would have Karen Reid style, like, helped you and been on your side. You never know. I mean, and even then at the time, like, it was this early stages of, like, the internet, like, fracturing into, like, into different parts. And, like, some people just, like, odiously hated me and were just maliciously going after me. And other people were just, like, you know, defending me and, like, really just doggedly, like, gathering the evidence and trying to, like, convince the side. But it was, like, really, like, the first stages of those, like, there wasn't the term echo chamber back in the day. But now that's like a term that we all know and we're all familiar with and that was happening in this case. And so I think this case helps us reflect upon how those things emerge. But also how do we try to unravel them? How do we how do we unspin out of our like how do we build bridges between these seemingly opposing like opposite and impossible factions and find common ground? And like that's.

the journey that I, Amanda character, goes on after having experienced this whole horrible adversarial scenario. We'll be right back after the break. When you have a pet, it's like they're part of your family. Literally in their own way, you take care of them, but they also take care of you. Even if you think you're the best pet parent in the world and, you know, you treat your pet like one of your babies, unpredictable things happen. But fortunately, you can always give your care of boosts.

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I mean, I've honestly been like on the hook promoting. Right. So I feel like I'm actually headed home tomorrow and I feel like that's when I'm going to have a time to settle and take in. I mean, I'm very happy for the actors and like my creative partners that people seem to be really recognizing how like, how bold. this show is as well. Like, this is, this show, like, breaks the mold of true crime. It breaks the mold of biopic. It's, like, took some really, like, you know, strong, you know, swings at, like,

creative choices that I think are really good. And, and so I hope, I want to, like, see how people absorb it. And, like, appreciate that, like, this is attempting to do something much more than what you would expect a show like this to do. Do you see yourself continuing in this world of like making? Hell, yes. Oh, yeah. I mean, now I'm like four years of executive producing this show.

I've been working on a show for four years. And I've learned so much like, again, K.J. Steinberg really took me under her wing, really supported me. I mean, I co-wrote the final episode with her. And then, you know, Warren has been, Warren Littlefield has been like mentoring me and my husband. throughout this entire process. And so we've learned so much and we really enjoy the process of telling stories. And, like, it would be awesome if I could help someone else tell their story.

Or it would be awesome if, like, I could inhabit another person's, like, identity for a while instead of being so, like, deeply entrenched in my own. In your own. Are you done telling this story? Is this the, like? I mean, I don't know because, like, it's a living, thing in me. It's still evolving in me. So I feel like it just really depends upon what happens and how, I mean, again, because like trauma is a thing that you carry with you your entire life.

And so in a way, this, this experience will inform me my whole life. And it will inform me as a storyteller my whole life. Do I know what that's going to look like down the road? Not necessarily. But like, I feel like the one other thing that's really interesting about the story is there's so many things to unpack. Like, if you want to focus on one thing, like, if you want to just focus on the misogyny, like, you can, like, go down the rabbit hole. If you want to focus on, you know, the interrogation, you can go down the rabbit hole. If you want to talk about, like, you know, what does it like to be abroad and, you know, different, you know, like the clash of cultures, you can go down the rabble. So, like, there's so many different ways that I have over the years

processed this story from so many different angles. But again, like, I think that this, also is a show that is so definitive in a way. And so I don't know, we'll have to see. I'm excited also to pursue other stories is the thing. You're so right about the show having these different facets. Because even for me, all those little things that Amanda, Amanda, here, Amanda there, is being asked. And if you're looking at her from a guilty lens, then it's like, why was her phone off? Why did she answer?

Right. But what the show does so well, I feel like, is show like, you know, the scene of her shutting off her phone. And you're like, that's completely normal, especially before smartphones and all that stuff. Like, like, I don't think, I said it abroad. I didn't have a phone. I was calling my mom from like a card somewhere. So this is international too. Who's paying for international calling? Exactly. But when you showed that like, oh my God, my boss, you know, shutting off my phone. I don't want my dad to bother me. So it was like, oh, duh, you know, or like, we talked about before you walking into the to the apartment and not thinking about why it was open. By the way, you guys, this show has seeped into, and I have to tell this really quickly, seems into my soul and brain because last night, after I've been watching the show, I forgot that I put my son to sleep in my room because he had asked her like, can I sleep in the room? Yes. Forgot. Was on the phone later at night with like my sister.

I'm screaming on the phone, la, la, la, la, la, la, going to my room, turning on the light, going to pee with the door open, whatever, whatever. I'm like, no, but I look over. I see my son sleeping on the bed, like, snoring because they get to an age you guys where they can sleep through anything. Yes. And I'm like, oh, my God, I'm so fucking, how did I not pay attention? So, of course, I think of Amanda Knox because I'm watching the show and thinking of her

because you guys showed that moment, all those moments, like getting in, shower, to be towing out, low dryer, see the poop. And I felt like I put myself in Amanda Knox. She was in that moment because I was. like, it would be like, are you okay? Yeah. How did you walk into the room, not see your son sleeping, turn on the light, go pee, with the door open, scream on the phone.

All that to say is not only the show really good, it really took over me because that's when I get into something, then it lives with me, you know? And I'm like thinking of her in the moment that I'm... Well, thank you for empathizing. But yeah, you're right. Like, here we are. And this is how this experience is so universal. And the story is so universal is it's like, we're all good.

going about our lives. And we're not just seeing the world clearly. We have our certain set of expectations as we approach every situation. And we don't always have all the information because we're just going about our lives. And like I remember there's this really beautiful moment that KJ wrote in the first episode that was like hinting at what was to come for Amanda. And it's when she's walking home from Raphael's house. She hasn't yet discovered, you know, she's on her way home to discover

that it's a crime scene now, right? And she's just, la-da, sing it herself, la-la-la-la-la. And then, boom, she almost gets hit by a moped. And it's just, and then she's just like, huh, and then goes back,

you know, like, because you're not expecting to get hit by a moped that day. And then you don't. And so you're like, oh, all right, never mind, all right, you know,

like, it's just like, you're just in a completely different momentum. Yeah. All of us are bringing to every situation, our own momentum. And sometimes that leads to a horrific and horrible crash. Yeah. And that's what happened in this case.

And the untangling and trying to like heal the wounds of that incident of these people who like ran into each other in all the wrong ways is part of what this show is attempting to do. I know it's really important to, you know, remember, obviously that this happened to a lot of people, happened to you, happened to Meredith, who is no longer with us. But obviously, because you're sitting here, I want to ask you, you know, it's so easy. Like we said, things happen in life. You're walking down the street. You could get hit by that moped and fucking. That's it. And that's life. Like, things happen. People are in car accidents. Like, oh, if I didn't stop for gas, that one gas station, I wouldn't have been. So how do you, because you,

you've, it's been a long time. How do you reconcile that? Like, why did this happen to me? How did this if I didn't go to Perusia? If I didn't pick that flat, like, how do you do that to kind of get out of the of the loop? I mean, I think that I tend to lean on gratitude for what I have to like as a reminder. Because like, again, like the way that you could, the way I've felt I've been able to approach this scenario so that it doesn't feel so like personally harmful is it's like I was in the middle of a natural disaster and this natural like I just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when a natural disaster happened which was you know this young man who was spiraling out of control and aggressive towards women broke into our house and like talk about wrong place

of the wrong time my roommate who did everything right who like never walked home alone like like That bothers me to this day. Like the reality that in life, you can do everything right and still get hit by a freaking train. Right. Like, it's not like you didn't look both ways. No, no. Exactly.

And so, like, stuff will happen to us. And there is no way to necessarily prepare for it. Right. If you survive it, how do you keep it from diminishing you? How do you take ownership over who you become? come in the aftermath, instead of allowing, like, the hurt to own you. How do you own the hurt? And that's been my personal journey and something that, you know, gratitude has helped me, you know, you speak about a car crash. Like, literally, like, two days ago, a very, very good

friend of mine got into a very, very bad car crash and called me and, like, almost, you know, almost died and is very much like I'm like they called me to be like how do I how do I deal with this because they were like I didn't even know they were in the hospital like a month anyway so it's just like this whole finally sort of wrapping their heads around the fact that like I almost died how do I deal with that and it's like well you're alive right you're alive and like I know that you're in pain and I know that there's a lot of struggle that now is ahead of you you're alive for you're alive. And like, what a gift to be alive. And so, like, hold on to what you still have. And also know that, like, the pain doesn't exist forever. Just like all the stuff that you have that's good doesn't exist forever. Neither does the pain. It evolves with you. And if you decide to be the guiding force of that pain, it can evolve into something that isn't self-destructive, but something that really, like, propels you forward in a positive way. I love that.

Your murder conviction was overturned, obviously. But the slander charge is really interesting to me because we don't have that in the United States, right? Yeah. Because he didn't. Basically, Patrick, I don't want to say his last name wrong. La Mumba. La Mumba.

When you were being interrogated, we see this on the show for the 53 hours, and they start telling you that you texted your boss, and you said, see you later, and they don't get that it's the slang, that they thought you had a meeting with him and that your alibi is shot. So you guys watch the show, if you haven't, but you'll see this moment, and you end up saying his name

because it was thrown at you and you were gaslit into thinking it was him. So basically, Italy, like, they're... They held me criminally liable for lying to the police and saying that somewhat... What they claim is that I knowingly and willingly falsely accused an innocent man.

That is not what happened. One, I didn't know who committed the murder. So I didn't know who was innocent or who was guilty. I didn't knowingly do anything. And I neither did that willingly either. But like they say that I wasn't even being interrogated. I was being interviewed, which is why I didn't have the right to an attorney. The European Court of Human Rights disagrees with them and says that I absolutely was being interrogated.

And I did have the right to an attorney and my human rights were violated. So yeah, here I am 18 years later with the Italian Justice. a system saying that I am guilty of maliciously slandering an innocent person and three of the years that I spent in jail were deserved. And that is patently false. So I'm fighting that you're still fighting it. Okay. What implications does it have on your life aside from just knowing that that's? I have a criminal record. So is that does that does it transfer over? Like it's, well, like, for instance, recently I tried to do, I was invited to do a little bit of work in Australia. Mm-hmm.

And my, I was denied entry due to my criminal background. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So that's important to. Yes. Yeah. No, it's a.

It's not just a principal thing that. Yeah. I mean, there's the principle of the thing, but there's also a practical reality of the thing. And like, I, and again, this is something that you see a lot in wrongful. conviction cases where like there's this tendency to try to convict the person of like a lesser crime or to say that they're at fault for their own wrongful conviction so that there there is no accountability on the part of the law enforcement who put an innocent person in jail in the first place. And so one thing that one of my attorneys has always said is that the only

reason I was ever convicted of that was as a contentina, which is a little contentment to the prosecution so that they wouldn't be completely humiliated. Got you. That makes sense. That makes sense. But it's interesting because at first when this was spoken about, I thought it was Patrick, right? Like you slandered my name, that this was coming from him. I mean, he did have a civil attorney who was there in court acting as a kind of second prosecutor.

He was the one, in fact, it was Patrick Lumumba's attorney who invented the Luciferina term. He was the one who started calling me Luciferina, female Lucifer. So Patrick Lumumba's attorney was ruthless in his pursuit to get compensation for Patrick, for his losses. What he didn't recognize, though, was that I was not at fault for Patrick's arrest. It was the police who arrested him. And it was the police who held him, even though there was no evidence of his involvement in this crime. And even though he had an ironclad alibi. So I feel like there was a, a.

misdirection of trying to find fault and trying to attribute blame for this very clearly bad thing that happened to my boss, Patrick Lumumba. So this sort of thing doesn't happen in the U.S., right? Where the slander, this charge, this charge. Yeah. And that's a really interesting point. Like, there are a lot of cases of wrongful convictions here in the U.S. where, like, are you familiar with the Central Park Five case?

They have a show about it. They do, yeah, yes. So I think I watched the show, yeah. So, I mean, one of the things that is, it's a very famous false confessions case. With the kids, right? Yes, these teenagers were all, you know, coerced into implicating each other. Right. And if what had happened in my case happened in their case, not only what they have all been accused of, you know, committing this horrible, like, rape and attack.

on this woman, but they also would have been accused of falsely accusing each other. And so they would have been charged and convicted of that lesser crime. And they didn't, obviously, that they didn't get charged of that crime here. Because that doesn't happen here. I mean, yeah, they didn't charge. They don't charge

for that kind of thing. They don't charge for that kind of thing. Yeah. Patrick Lumumba. Is he still alive? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Did you speak to him? Is there any... I have spoken to him and I mean, it's tough. Because he, I mean, he was wronged, right?

He was deeply wronged. And he's convinced that I'm the one who wronged him. Yeah. And, like, I try to explain to him what really happened. But I think that he's just so entrenched in the narrative that his own attorney represented to him. And so it's just been, like, a non-starter. And it's unfortunate because that's not uncommon.

And again, it, like, really taught, it, it lends to this idea that, like, once this boulder of a narrative starts going down the hill, it just gains momentum, and it's so hard to stop. And, like, at a certain point, like, it just wrecks everything. And there's only so much, like, damage control that you can do. I know that you've spoken before about how you didn't get to, like, properly ever meet Meredith's family, grieve with them, speak to them. speak to them anything. Yeah. Do you think that might change with the show coming out?

I mean, I never give up hope. Okay. You know, I'm always a hopeful person. I also know that, like, you know, the way that this story has been told the what happened to Meredith, like the truth of what happened to Meredith, got lost.

Right. In this, like, whole scandalous story. And for good reason, there is pain and grief in that. And so, but I, I have hope. You have hope. Rafaeli.

Yeah. He was here for the premiere. Oh, he came for the premiere. Yeah. Okay. I thought that I, like, my eyes were playing tricks to me. I was like, was that the actor? Was that the real?

So he was there. Yeah, he was there. Scarfenol. Scarfenol. Well, no. He wasn't. No. No.

Raphaelie was here. Yeah. What was that like after all these years? Well, I think the last time I saw him was three years ago. Okay. When I went, yeah, three years ago. And, I mean, we've kept up over the years. I mean, he's in Italy, obviously.

And, like, we both had, I mean, talk about an ordeal of, like, the long tale of trauma. After dating for a week. After dating for a week, we go through this, like, horrible experience together. And now we're living the rest of our lives with, like, the stigma of this accusation hanging over us. And, like, really being a huge, defining moment in our own. our lives. Was it for him, though, do you think as much as for you? Yeah. It was. 100%. I mean, absolutely. Like, he did not come out of this story unscathed. He was accused of heinous crimes. And like the stigma of that hovers over him to this day. And he's worked so hard and he's been,

he's done so well considering all of the obstacles that he's faced and the, you know, the slammed doors in his face. He's really had to like prove his innocence every single day, but he's like, he's doing much better now. And like, you know, we still are very connected and are processing this experience in our own, in our own ways. I think that he, it's really cool. We actually are both big meditators. And that's been a huge, huge help. Because, like, one of the things that meditation teaches you is that if you just, like, sit quietly with yourself right here, right now, you're okay. Like, no matter what is going on in the world and all the problems that you need to solve, like right now, you're okay. And, like, just knowing that,

like, knowing that there's a place to retreat to where you're okay is such a relief. So you connected on that with him. Yeah, yeah. That's so, did you, how did you think to invite him to the premiere? How did that happen? I mean, this is a huge story for him as well. well. And I wanted him to have a sense of, like, here are all these people who have been working so hard to tell this story right. And obviously, like, this show is very grounded in my perspective. Right. Like, it's, I'm going back to Italy to confront my prosecutor. That is something that I did. And to understand and appreciate that decision, we have to go back in time and relive this terrible experience from my perspective. But, like, something that I really wanted to

do is to honor things that he lost, like, through this and how that impacted our relationship. Like, one of the sort of lesser, like, it's a big thread in the series for me, but I'm curious to see how, like, the audience picks it up is this story of love lost. Like, the love that could have been, but then was tortured through this torture that we went under. Like, there's, have you seen the final episode of the series? I did it. I did it. Okay, there's this beautiful scene between me and Raphael, where we reckon with the fact. Like, it is not lost on us that, like, if we hadn't met, you know, seven days before this crime occurred, his life would have been completely different. And does he, like, does he regret ever having met me? And, like,

we have that discussion. Tune in for his answer, I guess. Tune in. Yeah. Oh, that's a hook. I had another question about Rafael and this is a logistical one for me, a practical one. Did he actually turn on you in his interrogation and say that you weren't together that night, as it says on the show or were the place lying? Yeah, I mean, yeah, all of these are so, well, so what happened is, again, he was put through the same kind of horrific scenario and the police wrote up a thing for him and he signed it out of like just exhaustion and fear and confusion. So like same scenario. And I do not hold any of that against him. Okay. So it wasn't like, okay, that makes sense because I was like, oh my God, why did he turn on

her? But you're saying it was the same situation. Oh, yeah. And there's a mo, like in the series, we see, it's really cool. We see the same scenes from different angles. And so we also see his interrogation and what was happening at the, at the same time that I was being interrogated in a later episode so we can appreciate like what was going on. Have you returned to Italy since 2022? I have, yes. So we talk about the slander trial. So the European Court of Human Rights sanctioned Italy for violating my human rights during my interrogation.

And I used that ruling to overturn my slander conviction in Italy. And then I was sent back for retrial. So I was tried again in 2024 for this crime. And they found me guilty again. So I'm appealing again to the European. Court of Human Rights as we speak. And that is the ongoing term. What is it like being in Italy with the Italians,

probably still screaming at you in Italian, and being in a court and being like, does that bring you back? It's so hard. It's, I hate being in courtrooms. I hate it. And standing in front of a court of, you know, people who are not my peers and opening, pouring my heart out to them about the worst experience of my life and then having them go into a room and come back and say we don't believe you and you deserve to be punished is like so heartbreaking it's it's so hard and like I'm being punished for having been harmed yeah and it's so like at this point in my life like like I know I know what happened and I know

that I'm not at fault and that I was tortured but for that not to be, like, officially recognized and validated is an ongoing trauma. Yeah. And so I'm just, I'm still carrying it to this day. Like, you really feel like that's maybe the last missing piece of feeling kind of more of a closure with this. Especially the case. Yeah.

With the case. With the case, certainly. Yeah. I understand that. But does it feel like. No. Do you feel like you're fighting with this specifically, like a, just like a battle? Because I feel like if they're, you know, the way they're portrayed on the show, so hard-headed, so keen on making you out to be this person.

And you were saying before what your lawyer said, like, this is the thing they have, you know, and they're not going to let it go. The contentina, yeah. The contentina. Are you not letting yourself think negatively? are you like, I'm going to keep fighting even though? Yeah, I mean, here's the thing about life is like you fight for what you know is right, not knowing if you're going to get, right, you're not knowing if you're going to be vindicated and acknowledged, but that doesn't stop you from fighting for what you know is right.

So I have to be okay with uncertainty, and that's been my entire adult life. Well, I hope that that happens for you. Thank you. I really hope that that happens for you. You know, I think this was like a theme in our conversation because I think I now knowing you a little bit better kind of know the answer. But I'll just ask you before we're done. Do you ever think that you'll truly move on from from this? It's a frustrating answer.

Yes and no in the sense that like in a way I already have moved on from it because I feel free. I wrote a book that came out earlier this year called free and it's about like trying after having. having my freedom stolen from me, how do I make sense of that? And how do I reclaim freedom when I feel like freedom isn't what I thought it was anymore? What does it mean to be free? And today, I do feel free. Like, I do not feel like I'm at the mercy of someone else. I feel like I have agency in my life. And no matter what, you know, the Italian justice system decides, it doesn't like have any say over who I am. I know who I am. I know the trajectory of my life. Like, I know that I am in sync with the truth and and with, you know, an ethical decision-making matrix. Like, I'm, I feel very comfortable with myself and my decisions and my place in the world that I have fought for. And, and so in that way, I have moved on because I don't feel trapped anymore. But does this ever go?

away? No. No. This is my life. Yeah. And I can embrace that. And you can embrace that. Well, thank you so much for coming. Personal. Yeah. I want to know about your tattoos. Oh, okay. Well, there's a lot of them. But are you most curious about this one? This and that one. This one and this one. Yeah. So this one, are you familiar with the semi-colon tattoos? Yeah. So that's the same. Yeah. I understand. Anxiety. Well, yeah. So this is originally, yeah, depression, suicidal, ideation, the idea being that you think your life is at an end, but actually it's just a pause. Yeah. And the girl who gave me this, this was very early on in my journalistic career of interviewing people,

was a young girl named Daisy Coleman, who had survived being raped and taken advantage of at a very young age. And then when she went to the police, she was not believed. And then slut shamed in her local community. And she attempted to take her own life and thankfully survived, but went on to, like, tell her story and went on to become a tattoo artist. And so when I interviewed her, I had her tattoo this for me. Did you relate to that one? Oh, absolutely, because, you know, I've dealt, I felt like my life was over and it wasn't. And it wasn't.

You know, the sad thing about this one is Daisy is no longer with us because she still struggled with all of the stuff, all of the trauma that she experienced. And then a series of events, including the untimely death of her younger brother, and, like, all of that just became overwhelming. So this is extra meaningful. Extra, extra. Because this is me carrying this young woman who I encountered forward. Yeah. This one is a resistor symbol from electrical engineering.

And for me, it is a symbol of, like, the world is going to give you energy, right? it's not always going to be great energy. You don't have to take it in and you don't have to be a conduit for that energy. You know how like sometimes you're just, you'll start off on the wrong foot and you and your, you know, spouse will just be sort of like nitpicking at each other. And it's like, you know what? Like you don't actually have to like be in this negative feedback loop. You can just like stop it and start over. And so for me, this is a symbol both of like being really mindful about the kinds of energy that I take in and the kinds of energy that I put out. But also similarly, information. Like, there's a lot of crazy, bad information that comes our way every day. I don't have

to be a conduit of that. I can be skeptical. I can be mindful. I can decide, does this, is this truthful or is this just, you know, what is it called? A resistor symbol. So it resists the current that it restricts a current that goes to. Let's get it, guys. Tattoo people. Let's get it. Yeah. My husband and I both have these. Oh, really? I like it. Thank you so much for coming on. It was lovely to meet you. You guys go stream the twisted tail of Amanda Knox. It's on Hulu. I love the shows have started not coming out all at once, so it's not

binging. It's your waiting. You're waiting for the next episode. It's a hard one to binge too. It's a lot. You're right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of Not Skinny, but Not Fat. Follow me on Instagram at Not Skinny but Not Fat. Subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any episodes.

Rate the podcast that you love so much on Apple Podcast. And write a little review. If you tell me you did, I'll give you a big virtual smoochero. Thank you guys so much for listening, and I'll see you next Tuesday. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.