Not Skinny But Not Fat - Body Confidence w/ The Birds Papaya

Episode Date: April 5, 2022

Talking all things bodies, confidence, and personal evolution with Sarah Nicole Laundry form the popular blog/ IG The Birds Papaya. What does she think of my handle? Skinny mirrors? Tiktok trends of models showing their rolls when they bend over? Listen to find out! Produced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Hey, I'm Molly Sims. And I'm Emma Shogormley. We are two best friends with one common obsession. Beauty. And by that, we mean everything that makes you look and feel beautiful. We've tried it all, and we've got your back. We'll be calling on all our favorite health experts, industry insiders, and friends to answer all your beauty questions.

Consider us your beauty 411. And sometimes, you're 9-1-1. From how to fix brassy hair to the pros and cons of laser facials. and always with a cocktail in hand. Always. So be prepared to be obsessed. Check out lipstick on the rim wherever you get your podcast. This is Amanda Hirsch from the Not Skinny but Not Fat podcast.

You might know me from Not Skinny Bonata on Instagram where I spend my time talking about reality TV, celebrities, everything happening and pop culture. I also talk to some of our favorite celebs and reality TV stars. talk about what's going on. Tune in every Tuesday and just feel like you're talking with your best friends in your living room. having it being positive? Yeah, I've got COVID. Did you post about it though? I don't remember seeing like I didn't make a post. I mean, I made a photo of like how chaotic my freaking living room is right now because the kids got it first and we got it second, which yes, in the grand scheme of things, it's great that we weren't all sick at the exact same time. But now you have to

understand we have wild toddler running around while crawling around and teenagers who are at home and, like, need things all the time. And then we're just dead. Like, we're just dying, right? So one of us, like my one daughter who's like almost 16, she's the only one without it. And so she's just like huddled down to the little like, if we have a basement apartment and she's like huddled in there.

She does not want to get it. She's so terrified. But I'm just like, I knew I was done for because the second the baby was sick, I was like, I'm done. Like, there's nothing I can do about this. Like, I'm going to have to get it now. Let's just brace ourselves. And honestly, the kids were so mild that I was like, this is going to be fine.

Like, I'm going to be so great. We're going to power through this. This is so mild. And then I woke up today and I was like, I regret everything. It's not mild. Oh my God. But you look great. I got ready.

Honestly, for my mental health, I got ready. I think there's something about being sick that makes you feel so much less of a human. And so whatever you can do to sort of chip away at that feeling. And for me, I just like had to have a shower and get ready today because it's just been like days on end of just a blur, right? It does help. It does help. Like, you forget about it.

Like, yesterday I had to do, like, a little shoot thing. And I was like, I'm so done so, so. But, like, I'll pull together for an hour. And, like, for that hour, I was like, chip, chip. Like, I don't know how we have it within us. Like, a man could never. Is your husband more of a baby about it? Yeah, for sure.

And this morning, he comes downstairs and he's like, I think I got to go back to bed. and I shot him this look and he's like, I'll do it later when the baby's sleeping. And I was like, yeah. Like we're, I don't care if like one of us is here watching the baby, we're in this together. Like we cannot. Like I just, but he just had a vasectomy and this is so funny. I did not know that testicular pain could be a side effect of COVID. My husband who just had a vasectomy now has this pain in his ball sack because of COVID.

It's a real thing. Wait, how do you know it's not because of the vasectomy though? He was already like, it was already past the point. Like he was already feeling so much better. And then it just started to get painful again. So he's having to be really careful. But it's just like, wow. Wait.

Okay. I'm recording on my end. Are you recording on my end? Yeah, I'm recording. Oh, okay. So we're just in it. We're in it to win it. Let's introduce our fucking guest.

Sarah from the Birds Papaya on Instagram is finally on the podcast. I'm so excited. I am to have you here. We became like internet friends this year and you're just like the cutest, most supportive, real woman on Instagram and everyone should go follow you if they don't already. I have to tell you the vasectomy story is so good. I want to come back to it, especially because like apropos of the vasectomy like Hilaria Baldwin, maybe you should reach out, like tell her about this procedure for Alec. Seventh baby. I know.

I know. I'm like IG friends with Hilaria. we just like follow each other. And I and I find it so fascinating. My sister has a lot of kids. And there's something to like when you have a lot of kids, it really is not like having another baby. It's just like throwing another one in the ring. Like it's so fascinating. My sister's house is cleaner than mine ever has been. I also have four kids. So now that I'm like saying this out loud, I'm like it's so weird that I could look at people be like, ow, you're doing like I. I know. You're like, wait, am I? Hilaria Baldwin? Am I her? Like me? Am I the drama? Yeah. No, that's how I. that it's so fascinating though. Like maybe it's less dramatic. You're saying to have like for me,

I have one to have another one will probably be like earth shattering. I think one to one zero to one is the hardest. One to two is like what the hell, how do you hold them both? And then it's like after that I don't remember like I remember my son coming and being like, oh wow. There's just like you just throw them into the cycle. Like they're just in the routine.

And I've watched my sister do this. she had six kids in 10 years. And it's just a system. Like she runs everything on a program and a system. And her house is clean because the kids are contributing. And I'm, I co-parent with my kids. So they're only here half the week. So we have like a lot of juggling. So I, I don't have that same system. Right. So she has a, it's a very well-oiled machine watching them with like these multitudes of kids. So I do find it shocking. Seven kids. That's a, that's a lot of humans. Plus, they have like nannies. I mean, they have like probably a nanny for every two kids. For sure. And the older ones start to help, right? Right. And I keep saying that and people think

I'm kidding. They're like, when are you having another kid? I'm like, when Noah can help? And we're like, you're so funny. And I'm like, no one is literally serious. Like, it's like what happened. Like, for me, it's like whatever happens before. Noah comes the fuck down a little bit or he gets to an age work he can at least fetch something, you know? If not to babysit, at least, like, be like, Noah, can you bring mommy a diaper? Like, he needs to at least be at that point for me to consider another kid or calm down. So you have, can you explain your four? Yeah, I have four. And then is one from your current husband? Yeah. So I met my husband when I was going through a divorce and I have three kids. So I gave birth to my first, I got married at 19, had my first baby at 21, second at 23,

and third at 25. So I'm 37 now and I have like a 16 year old, a 14 year old, a 12 year old and a 1 year old. So I'm like living it twice. But like to that point, I was a state home mom when they were all little. And I timed it that they were all coming at a time where the oldest was still sleeping naps. And so the youngest, and then the older, once there was three, was in school. So I always had a break during the day. And that's actually when I started blogging was just in those like little bits of hours because it was so isolating. And just I was not, I was not the kind of mom that I was seeing online. And I couldn't understand it that I was like not this like mother goose style of person. I didn't want to be part of mom groups. I was like, this is so overwhelming. Like I loved my kids,

but I didn't enjoy like the mom experience per se. And I started blogging like through that, but also tried to just like fit in with moms because I was like, I am just not one of you, but I will try. Wait, where was your blog then when, what that time was going on? Wherever blogs were. So my kids are, I started when my oldest was three or sorry, two. And my youngest was just born.

We had just moved far away from my family. And I was just like super lonely. And I found blogs and I was like, oh my gosh, there's other people like doing stuff in life. And I think when you got like when you remember blogs coming out, you were just like so obsessed. Like you would read everything they posted. You'd wait for every blog to come out. You were so into people's lives. And I guess I just got to the point where I really wanted to talk back.

I just wanted to have something to say. But I had no money. A lot of people who came out with blogs were like funded by somebody else or like they had the money to do it. I didn't have the money to do it. So I had like this bro. broken ass laptop and I googled like how to code your own blog and I forget I sold ad space on it like I hustled my way through that thing and I named it the birds papaya because it was home with two little girls whose nicknames were Gemma Birdie and Maya Papaya and it just has

always stuck and yeah well thank you for answering that question for me without me asking you I'm sure you get that I'm sure you get that question so much yeah but I know it might be similar to you though like now everybody's shifting away from like handles and they're going into like their names and I'm like wait am I supposed to do that too like I'm still the birds papaya it's been like almost I guess my daughter just turned 14 so it's been like 14 years of the birds papaya and it's just become its own thing but people often don't know my name so it's kind of hard so okay so a couple things well you know I wanted to talk to you about my handle specifically yes DM do about it in general so you're your youngest your one year old lemmy right yeah

let me she's so cute and you feature her a lot and you show her but your older daughter you always put like a filter on her yeah is that because she doesn't want to show like how how what's the difference there so she was big on creating on social media for a while huge into cosplay huge into makeup and special effects and she struggles and i have consent to say this she struggles with anxiety and depression and she was noticing that social media was really causing her trouble with that and she also just like started high school and wanted to live like anonymously do you remember when we were in high school and like someone developed a camera role and you were like oh my gosh what is going to go on here like this is going to go and then facebook came out and you're like oh no you like woke up the next day and you had to go through social media she just got to this point where she's like i don't want my face i don't want people to know who i am i wanted just she just wanted to huddle back a little bit so we've always respected that the kids get to you know i gave consent until they could speak it for themselves and i mean that ends up being controversial sometimes but ultimately i just like have gone with that My parents, like, posted my photo in a newspaper when I was born.

And then having Lemmy, I mean, she is, she came during the pandemic. I gave birth at home. And I just, in a time that was so dark, I had really bad prenatal depression. And then my prenatal depression caused me to not want the baby, essentially. Like, I was very resentful towards her, resentful towards the experience and slowly kind of lost myself to it. So when she was born, that really dissipated. and I couldn't help but share her obsessively. And what happened was so fascinating because so many people started to reach out and be like,

I'm really struggling mentally and like seeing her every day. Like I would just start the day with just like a little video of Lemmy. And I was like, I don't know what it is. But like starting my day this way is like really helping my mental health. So I just became very cognizant of like children are such a gift. Like they are such a gift and they have such a light within them. I know I feel that way when I see Noah. Right.

Like there is something about them that is so precious. and I've just loved sharing her. And as, as strange as it's all been in the last, like to be 37 and going back into motherhood again, like, as if I was 21, it's just, it's so cool. It's so cool to kind of get a chance at this again. It was definitely not necessarily a plan for us. We had always expected that Shane would just not have his own children and we were just going to raise my three, finish that job off.

And we kind of contemplated once the pandemic happened. And it's been, it's been such a blessing to our entire home, but also just, I think, to myself as a creator to kind of step back and recognize like the power of kids and also recognizing that like my older daughter, like she doesn't want to be a part of that anymore. And I respect the hell out of that too. Like kids with boundaries are freaking awesome. I love it. That's amazing. And she's old enough to be able to say like mom. And of course, of course, that's amazing. And you're so right about children being like a gift and. you know, the, the messages that I get about Noah and, like, thank you for sharing him. And, like, he made a dark day, you know, bright. And that makes it so worth it, you know. Of course, if you sit and actually think about all the negative stuff about sharing a baby and, you know, you could, I could literally roll up into an anxious ball and be like, never mind.

I'm never going to share him again. Yeah. But then it's like, sometimes you just have to look at just the positive side. Yeah. And roll with it because if we look at everything that way and the like negative aspect. And again, whatever you choose is fine. I know I've spoken about emojiing your babies. But to be clear about my stance on that, I, that is when you post a picture with you and the kids and you emoji them. Like that's what I don't get. Then like don't post the picture. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Then like if you don't want to share your kids, don't share your kids. But I love that you found like a happy medium with that with your,

with your daughter. So that's your oldest daughter. That's my oldest. Yeah. And what about the, the younger one? Yeah. So my, my middle daughter, Gemma, she is now 14. She loves to come on to, she likes to take over my Instagram. She has gotten her own little personality. Kids these days do not post on social media. Like it's not really their thing. They're very much observers and very private in the way that they do things. But it's all very funny and very like chaotic. And she loves these like big eye filters. And she comes on and she likes to basically bitch about me and my own Instagram stories, but I always have to watch them first because I'm always like,

yeah, sometimes you'll say, like, no, you can't do you can't, you know, no, no, no. Like North, like Northwest style savageness. Yeah, just like, wait, so no boys in the film. There is a boy. So I also have my son Bowden. He is the one who's 12 and he loves to, sometimes he'll be like, mom. You got to like post my fit today. Like, look at, look at this.

This is amazing. Or he'll be like, he's actually the funniest person on social media because he has notifications turned on for like me and all of my friends. So the second I post something, he's the first, and he always posts like fire emojis. So a lot of people have just watched him grow up essentially because I've been doing this for so long. A lot of people have grown to know Bodom, but he's like the hype man of the family. So you do see him in stories and stuff, but you mostly see him in comments and he's normally like he's just like doing these fire emojis. And every once in a while, I'll see him comment like on somebody's like celebrity page.

And he's just like, hey, my mom's the bird's papaya. And like, we love you. And I was like, oh, my God, no. So special, the family that you have. And I'm like, personally, I feel like I'm happy that you had Lemmy, you know, even though you maybe didn't plan to, but it's also special that now you have this kind of blended family and we're able to have your love create something together. Okay, you guys, did you all binge the latest season of Love is Blind in One Sitting,

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No, actually. Instagram account? No. So body positivity while becoming incredibly mainstream is essentially what I've learned, because I definitely use that language very early on. But body positivity was essentially created and founded by marginalized fat bodies. I still, while I have a body that is somewhat different from a lot of mainstream media, I can still go and exist through the world very easily. and that's not the same story. So if I were to co-opt body positivity, I'm basically taking the stage

on something that isn't meant for me. And that took a while to sort of like digest what that would mean. Does that mean I'm like body negative? Like no. And to be honest, you, the language of body positivity, that movement is also so important. Like bodies deserve safety and respect no matter their size, especially in health care, which is one thing I've learned so much. A lot of people when they talk about like obesity kills, a lot of times it's killing because of their lack of care in health care systems. They go to the doctors with something going on and they're told to just lose weight and go home. This is a repetitive thing. I won't say who, but like a very close family member, I had to witness this in real time about a month ago. And it was devastating to see it happen.

It was devastating to see that there was actually something very serious underlining. And the only diagnosis was just go home and lose weight. So this is very real stuff going on. So body positive has this like whole place. But I'll be honest, like even within that, I felt that really hard constantly using the word positive because it almost felt like I couldn't put my grief somewhere. Like what happens when you have a baby and your body like dramatically changes and you're struggling? Like I don't, I'm not positive. I'm not feeling great about it. And confidence is a great, a great language word. I like. like to use that one because confidence for me has never been a feeling. It's been an action,

self-love, same kind of thing. These are kind of cheesy one-liners. But again, much more realizing that it's more action than feeling and trying to sort of be real with people about what it is to go through. I ended up with a basically give backstory. I lost 100 pounds and shared it all over social media and ended up with major health issues and disordered eating and had to basically go back on everything I said on social media and become myself and try to just honor who the hell I was and gain weight publicly, then get pregnant, and then go through postpartum very publicly. And that's not always a positive experience. It has to also be hard. It also has to be neutral. But the main point of it being, how the hell do we show up in our lives amidst change

or discomfort and things like that? So I think that's why I kind of have lived within the body confidence realm because I think that that's I like that I think that's where people struggle the most and that's something that almost anybody can identify with but again we often wait for this emotion of confidence and when people are like how do you how do you find your confidence I'm like I literally that's not something I like hold it's not something I found and I've kept it's how you show up that's confidence it is showing up every single day that's confidence it's not waiting on a feeling or your body to look a certain way. It's rocking and showing up in your life every single day, even in the

struggles, even in the grief, even in the change. And it also being not that you have to wear a bikini in order to prove it. Confidence for me is sometimes wearing whatever it takes to make me not think and focus on my body that day, especially as parents, because when we start to get into this cycle of, I don't really want to go to the beach because I don't want to be seen in my body now or I'm feeling really ashamed of it. Like the only person missing out is you and your kids. Like, that's it. And you don't get a repeat on that. And I think that's why I get so emotional about it because I missed out on so much of my kids' childhood because of how I felt about my body. So when Lemmy was born, I was like, I am a melted ice cream cone and I need to figure out

how to show the F up. And it was really, really uncomfortable to do so. But I just kept doing it. And I'm so grateful because that's where my confidence came from, not from what I was wearing or what I look like, but ultimately showing up in my own life and creating the memories that I really hope to make. That's so empowering and so fucking true. I mean, to top that off, you literally showcase your body on social media. I do. Like, how do you, how do you do that? Where does that power come from? You know, to be like, I'm going to bear all. You always write, you know, you're just, words are so on point and it's so helpful for so many women to see your post. but how did that sort of happen when you were like, I'm going to, you know, bear it all sometimes

and write about how I feel about these different parts of my changing body? Yeah. So years and years ago, when I just stopped getting, I was exiting dieting and I really had to face a lot of my personal discomforts. And you have to remember the way that I was working on losing weight was by purposely hating my body. It was never about being happy enough because then I would lose the targets and how to get better, which was what was perpetuating my social media. and my success. And essentially my income was by, you know, getting quote unquote better, like my body becoming this like performance, right? So when I, when I was kind of stepping away from that and really having to shift into my own discomfort with my body, my stretch marks were just

this thing. And I remember the first time I got them and I bawled my eyes out. I was like a teenager. And then I got more when I was pregnant. And then I had three kids by the time I was 25 and I sort of just like gave up. It was just something that I was. I even remember my maternity photographer on my second pregnancy. I asked her to like blur them out. Like can you just like blur them out? I don't even want to see them in a black and white photo. They were just, they were not something I'd ever seen on anybody. So it was very bizarre for me to be experiencing them. But when I first started like sharing something different, not just about my body getting better, but like showing the things that were really uncomfortable. I shared this like very like,

if I look back on it, I'm like, oh, wow, you showed two inches of a stretch mark. Look at you go. But it was a huge deal at the time. And I shared that. And I was wearing a certain bra. And I tag that brand as you do. And the CEO of that bra brand, which is Nix, you know them now. Oh, yeah. I work with them now. Yeah. They're so good. But this is like early days of their brand. And she reached out and she was like, I would love for you to be a part of a photo shoot. And I was like, I don't think you understand. Like, I curate my entire feed. Like, I'm still face tuning everything. So like I don't, I'm not comfortable with that because I knew that they were going to be like no makeup and like very realistic. Anyways, she was like, essentially the photo shoot's not happening without you. So like,

I'll see you on Tuesday. And so I showed up and I was so terrified. And then I thought in my head that they would have me in high rise underwear and it was like midrise and I was just stressing. But then there was like a professional model on the shoot and I noticed that she had stretch marks down her side. She had cellulite and like she wasn't perfect either. And she was just somebody who was like so beautiful. And she was like moving every shot and everything was so stunning. And then I go up there and the photographer is like a foot and a half shorter than me, which, if you remember how you take a selfie, you do a high angle, like, why are we going low? So she takes this low angle photo of me and that photo comes out without like me seeing it, right? And it's not being posted

by me. And it's this like low shot of my stomach with all of my stretch marks, which to describe them go all the way. There are multitude of them. They go all the way up to my ribs. And they can be quite big and some of them are quite wide. They posted them and I immediately wanted to throw up. I couldn't believe this was happening. It felt like every secret I had ever held close to my chest was now just like out there. And then I read the comments and the comments weren't for me. They were like to this brand. And every single one of them was, oh my gosh, the stomach looks exactly like mine. Like this is my body. This is what I look like. And I was floored because at that time I had no idea that other people had even reminiscent of a body like mine. I felt so,

so isolated in the experience. And I'll never forget that feeling. And I think that even if it's uncomfortable or sometimes I have to like fight back against that internal feeling, at the same time, I'm like, I'll show up on the beach and bikini. Everyone's already seen it on social media. I don't care. Like I've just lost that care for it. Do you know what I mean? Like that focus and that obsession with like hating it because I'm like, it's already out there. Like whatever. And it is what it is. My body did exactly what it was supposed to do. And it stretched and it did its thing. And like, how cool is that? I've just like shifted my mind, my mindset around it. But I always remember what it was like to find out that there was other women who looked like me and that there was other

women who had the same postpartum experience that I did. And I know that we have all different ones, but now I recognize that by sharing it, it makes it easier for people to not just see themselves in it, but to support their friends through it, to not be shocked and awe at this, to make this very normal experience normal. So that's sort of what I've done. And I post things now and I don't even really think twice about it. I think it's kind of cool that it's just like whatever now. Because four years ago, it was like, I would literally have to throw my phone to the floor and like walk away for two hours. So I wouldn't delete it. I was so terrified, right? Okay. I want to tell you guys about birth control delivery and telehealth service call.

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fuck? We have them like on our boobs and on our side and between our, legs but like who cares like I've always been like between my legs it's fine yeah yeah yeah but like on your side I remember being like you know 13 years old going to the pool and just literally walking around a bikini because like then it was like if I wore a one piece that would be weird you know and I remember this boy was like what happened like did a cat like scratch you like scratch your sides and I like will never forget that moment just because like I'm sure people saw it but nobody would say anything obviously. But being like a kid, you know, like 12, 13 with them. Now it's like, I feel like it's so normalized. Yeah.

Because obviously it's normal. But like I don't give a fuck. Yeah. About stretch marks now. And I know that I don't have it as quote unquote bad as other people. Like my sister also just had twins and she's struggling with that as well. But so your body confidence. Because I want to really understand and obviously like also, you know, use it for me and for the listener is like, Does that mean you're supposed to, because you were saying, does that, like, does that mean we're supposed to be like, oh, stretch marks are amazing? Like, are we allowed to hate them? Or are we allowed to say, fuck, like, why is my skin so sensitive, you know, that it's like everything shows up and, you know, my, is it okay to want to remove them? Like, how are we supposed to, what's, what's the best outlook for people dealing with that?

I think at the end of the day, first of all, watch the movie Inside Out and you will immediately know why it's so important to also have sadness. like sadness around things is so important. But grieving, this last pregnancy, I loved the look of being pregnant and, you know, immediately postpartum, I was like, bodies are so amazing. And then flash forward like two months later. And I was so true. So true. And but like two months later, I was like, okay.

Like, when is this fold in my skin going to go away? This is my first time having what is called like an apron belly. I literally have an overhang. And maybe that's from being older. Maybe it's from four kids. I don't really know. I had to go through grief. Grief is a processing tool.

Grief is how we manage change. Grief is how we go through things. And on top of that, some people will make decisions like a mummy makeover or whatever. Again, body autonomy is so important. But I don't believe shame has a place for any of this. Because if I saw somebody get a tummy tuck, which I know many people who have and I was like, well, you shouldn't have done that. That wasn't very self-loving of you.

or that wasn't very body confident of you, guess what? They might come to regret later and they might not, but ultimately supporting each other is what is best. I just believe that through and through, I personally have not gone through surgery. You have to be so careful in social media because I know firsthand after my weight loss, I got offered three or four tummy tucks, like by doctors on social media who was like, just tag me and like I'll give you it for free. But I had been so obsessively, like I said, targeting my body with

hate that I was like, if I remove this, I feel like the target's going to shift. I'm just going to hate something else about myself. I was not the kind of person that could healthly go through having surgery. And so, and now I'm at the point where I still watch people I follow. And sometimes it's a little bit hard when you've seen yourself like mirrored in somebody else and then you see them remove it. But again, it has nothing to do with me in my journey. But I really want to show up for people as somebody who doesn't do that because I do, I do know now that there is existing beyond it. But I do know also that it was really important for me to grieve and to feel sad and to not love it. There has never been a point to which I have looked at my body and been like,

I love what I look like. It has now been that I respect it. I just respect my body. It has done so much. It's doing a great job. It is freaking, it's amazing that society is so in awe of a woman's body when it carries a child. But when it births it, we're immediately like, can you just like nip and tuck and like get rid of that whole thing? Like we're so obsessed with women having babies, but we don't want them to look like they ever did. And so many of us look like we had babies. And so many of us don't look like we had babies. And so I just think that supporting each other is super important. But also, yeah, like grieve away. Like grief is truly how I got through this last year. So it wasn't easy. It was a lot of,

you know, really hard days, but sitting with that instead of just trying to, one, make it about losing it, losing weight or losing something or changing something, that was deeply uncomfortable. I gain weight when I breastfeed. So that was like a big discomfort for me to have to release it. Oh, you don't lose it like everybody. People don't lose the way. Oh, no. Okay. No. I remember when I was, you know, when I said that I was breastfeeding, people were like, oh my God. You know, so everything is going to come off. And I'm like, you don't know me. Yeah. Yeah. It's like everything that happens to people, you know, they're like, I'm sad. Like, it's like, I lose weight.

No, I eat more and I gain weight. Or like, you breastfeed that only made me hungrier, have less time to like try to be healthy. Yeah. But do you feel the pressure, Sarah, because you were saying like you want to show up for people, which makes sense. Like you have two million followers, people that look up to you in your journey. But like, do you ever think like, am I doing this because or not doing this or whatever for them or for me? Like, it's probably a hard, you know, decision.

It's because you're constantly thinking about, like, this audience, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's gotten tough over the years over certain things like wearing makeup or having hair extensions. Like, how come you're good about like accepting this, but you're not a good accepting that? And which is like such a hard line. And also puts the whole onus of like beauty culture and diet culture on the lowest hanging fruit possible. Like, why are we going to target women who have been like systemically targeted to hate ourselves our whole lives. And the second we do something like, aren't we also allowed to want to be beautiful? Like I was saying like, we're allowed to do whatever the hell we want. And I think that's like there's just so much cross messaging. And I, it's taken

me a lot of work for myself to figure out why I do things. Like, why do I like wearing makeup? Why do I like having certain clothes? Why do I like having my hair done? And that has to be a me thing, right? But it has been hard over the years to sort of navigate. And I think anytime you step into just even showing, it's fascinating too that people will immediately put you into like an activist sort of spotlight because you're showing up in your body. I have friends who I have one friend who's like you're so brave like the kind of like you're so brave vibe. Like you're not looking for that. No. But like also like so I have this friend who's like a she's a she's a fat influencer and she works on like mostly at a TikTok and people will be like just assume that she's an activist.

for body positivity or anything. She was just like, I'm just literally a fat woman existing in my body. And people are just like, but where are you championing this and that? And it can be hard. I think it's, I think ultimately again. And this is why I'm very much like, I know people love to be very upset with how certain celebrities like recycle diet culture or recycle beauty culture. I understand it. But at the same time, I'm like, they've been targeted their whole careers and their whole lives to like hate themselves and to like change. and to fit into this mold. Like, I just think that we have to look at the much bigger picture

and basically work at cutting down the tree than just, like, mocking women for how we're trying to show up in this world and how we're figuring it out and how we're navigating. I never, ever, ever want anybody to come onto my page and feel shame about themselves and their own personal choices, which is why whenever I talk, I will say me and we, I will never say you. Like, you need to be okay with this or you need to be, no, like, this is my experience. If you want to mirror that through me,

cool. But like, I'm not here to put anything on anybody. But yeah, there is sort of, I think, I think more so the pressure to, as a lot of people come to be okay with their bodies, there is that part of me that's like I just now want to show up without it being this big statement all the time. Right. And I still recognize that the power that it holds and I do use it. But I am much more excited to sort of show up in my life. And I know it's made me less like shareable and my growth hasn't been as strong as it was in the early days. But that's also because we've been saturated with this something different. And that makes me really excited that at the beginning, it was something that a lot of people hadn't

seen before. And that was really exciting to them. And now it's a very mainstream normal thing. But it's going to take, you know, if you grew up in the 80s, 90s, 2000s, we were so saturated with one specific look and feel and body. It's going to take an over. oversaturation in the other direction for us to balance out in the middle. And I think that's just where I am right now. Okay, you guys, spring is here. Isn't it time for a refresh, for a fashion refresh, looking to add something in your closet, have any events coming up?

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change your clothes. it's funny like when I watch like certain movies or TV shows and there's a character that like you know reminds me of myself and not like that one prototype that were used to sing I'll like immediately have like a liking I'm like oh my god I love that actress yes something and my husband even noticed that he was sort of like I've noticed that whenever there's somebody that's like not super skinny on the screen like you like you like and I'm and I got mad at him because I was like what are you saying you know because like give me an excuse to say. snap. But he made me like look at it. I was like, and then I explained it to him after he said it like a few times and I don't even remember now like what movie or what show. But yeah, I love seeing women with bodies on the television screen without like you're saying it being a statement or them being categorized as such. Just like a hot girl that, you know, reminds me of myself or of you or of someone that we're not used to seeing in that role. And without it being mockery, right?

Like, look at it without it being anything. Like, don't talk about it. Like, yeah. Like, don't talk about it. We don't need to call it a real body. We don't need to say, you know, this. Just like show up, look a little bit different than all the, you know, actresses and whatever that we've seen.

And like, it'll bring something out in me that is giddy. That is happy. Yeah. Yeah. So I wanted to tell you when I found you, it was, I'm trying to. remember when this trend was happening. Maybe it was like a couple years ago when I'm so glad the trend died down, honestly, but it was saturated with that, the trend of angle and angle, like all these models and creators that are, you know, I will say, I don't know if this is okay to say

like this, but like objectively thin, right? Because you can feel whatever you feel. But like, you know, and them doing the like, okay, I know you think that I have roles. because I'm sitting like this, but like, look, I go like this and I don't. And like, whoop, I go like this. Do you remember that kind of trend to make those videos? Oh, it's still around. It's still around. But, dude, it was a lot.

It was a lot. I was a lot. I was posting them and mocking it and being very aggressively hating on it. And a lot of people were like, you know, championing my, my, you know, my outlook. A lot of people got mad at me because they were like, you know, this person could, you know, be feeling like this or whatever. And that's when I was sent your page a lot. Like, we'll check out this page.

Like, it'll make you feel good and not angry. And I remember then also saying, like, you know, I'm not asking Sarah to bear all for me to, you know, feel good about myself. Yeah. I'm also not asking them to show me their role or their, like, you're allowed to do whatever you want. Like, you can show up, want to look hot today and find a pose. that is, you know, you feel the best in. Yeah. I don't need to necessarily see you fold over to show me what it would look like.

So what is your take on that trend? Do you think it, but a lot of people were telling me, I made it, it did make me feel better because I thought that model could never have a fold in her stomach. Yet there she has one. And it made me feel nice. Yeah. And I'll say I definitely did those kind of posts at the very beginning of me sort of

exiting from diet culture and from dieting in general. And so I saw it as like a very, not necessary, but a stepping stone. It was like a step one of a stepping stone. I think for a lot of people just even understanding that like folds happen. But I will tell you when I went through the last postpartum, like I had gained weight and like my had this overhang and I couldn't just like tuck away my roles anymore. They were like prevalent. I was so bitter at those posts because I was just, I just realized how triggering they could be. And I also follow a lot. of fat creators who were just like, this is so offensive because we have, we have roles all the time. So we don't get the chance to just like stand up and have them be gone. So you're basically

like showing it, but it is perpetuating this level of fat phobia. That's like, it's okay. You're still safe. Like it's okay. You're still okay. Because when you stand up, it's fine. You can tuck it away. You can do the thing. And I think that's, at one point, I made this like really, really big post when I realized how damaging it was and essentially just reminded people like I You might see yourself like echoed in my stomach or whatever having rules, but I still can roll up my yoga pants and go out into the world and have everybody treat me with respect. And that's not the story for everybody. But I think I just wanted to remind people like there are there is that place. I think especially for younger girls who are just getting to know their bodies and sort of grasping that a little bit. But yeah, like I do carry a lot of privilege and safety within my body because I can still fit. I wear a size 12. but I still can shop anywhere I want to shop and I can so go to the doctor and not have them focus on my weight. Like these are these are key pillars to moving safely through this world. So while it might be helpful for people to see that like real bellies exist or like quote

unquote that we have to take a step further than that. And I'm glad that that trend is is less so because like I said last year was it was so triggering. It was so harmful just as harmful as like nine months and nine months out pictures. If I'm honest. Yeah. This like or. But what would you say to people saying, you know, but I worked hard because the thing is, I coulda sue for navigating this space because it is so like, A, like you, you're so educated on it and you, you know, went through a journey yourself. But I feel like it's such a tricky space to maneuver because everything has, well, you know, but I'm triggered by this, but like it helped me.

But then with the nine months in nine months out, pictures, it's like. You know, but then a person can say, well, I'm proud of my progress and like I worked hard. So why can't I show that off? But again, like we can do whatever we want. And I think that's what's so important. It's for me, it's been about protecting myself when I've seen certain people that have really like posting these like before and after a baby photos or using their immediate postpartum body as like their before image. I just like have to process that on my own. Like I can't I can't change people. I can't change their minds. And I also have to. again, throw it back into the court of diet culture. It's not their fault that they feel like this is what is success. And women have constantly been made to feel like our bodies are the most important thing about us. So it would make sense that people would celebrate how their bodies are, right? Like that would make sense that that's where you would find pride or satisfaction in this world or praise. I think what's really hard is when you see somebody who's immediately had a baby

and everyone's like, girl, what's your secret? It looks so good. You look like you've never had a baby. I think body comments are something that as women, we need to stop circulating. And not like, you can just be like, wow, you're so glowing. Or like, it's so good to see you. Like I, you look amazing without it being like, you look amazing for having a baby. Or look so good.

I can't believe you just had a baby. Look like you've never had a baby. Like, we can just like say you look great and just like end the sentence there. Speaking of body comments and you, you're just so wealth of. like information knowledge and I hate that we have to finish it. I just wanted to talk about the name of my accounts. Yeah. Yeah. It was important to me to get your insight on it because obviously we're saying like obviously when I came up with this name that's blowing behind me in a neon sign. Yeah. It was a thought, you know, it was a quick thought but it was it was quick because

it was so ingrained in me. Yeah. Growing up like you were saying the example before of like the friends that are skinnier than you like my friend group growing up like. Like, every, all the girls were skinny and I was the only one that, like, had a body. I was super confident, speaking of confidence, like, even if I could never exchange clothes with them, like, I, like, and that's something, you guys, that's real. Like, when you're 10 years old and you're sleeping at a friend's house and you know that you can't borrow pajamas from her, doesn't mean that I was obese. It means that I was bigger than them.

Yeah, you were a different size. I was a different size. You're a different genetic makeup. And I swear to God, you guys. I was the most, I was way more confident than, than I am even now. Like, I was, I loved myself. I got all the hot guys growing up. I was popular.

Like, there was no issue there, but there were uncomfortable issues when I, like I said, was it a friend's house, couldn't borrow the clothes. Yeah. And I remember a friend's mom at 13 years old and we were talking about liking boys telling me to not worry, you know, that I have like love handles because guys like to grab. like, or like they want something to hold on to. I'm friends, mom said that to me. Yeah.

And I remember taking that with me as a positive thing. Like, okay, they like app. I'm like, I'm good. It's all about men are okay with it. Yeah. If they can like grab onto something and I can provide. So I grew up with that notion. I grew up with guys giving me comments that like my butt is bigger.

I grew up with people talking about, you know, my body in different ways. And I think I, you know, my mom. raised me to be so confident, you know, that I literally managed to kind of still in those years feel really good about myself. But always with the knowledge of like, I know I don't look like my friends, but I'm also not saying that I'm like fat and I'm not, you know, neither negatively or positively. I just knew that I wasn't, but I also knew that I wasn't skinny. So for me coming up with this name was very ingrained in me that I, that's how I feel about my body. I'm skinny but I'm not fat and to be honest like a lot of people really connect with it

with this name and a lot of people feel that way about themselves but then you know when kind of negative comments float about it or they look at the but like that I'm qualifying it like I'm not skinny but don't worry I'm not fat God forbid like putting kind of like and I and I always think about it like do I regret even having like the body you know descriptors as my fucking handle of a pop culture, you know, entertainment account. Yes, because I don't even want that to be, I don't want it to even be like a point of conversation or, or trigger for anyone. So I was wondering your thoughts. Well, first of all, I think it's very fascinating that people read it immediately are fatphobic about it. Immediately go to the notion that you are

negatively speaking about fatness and you're positively speaking about being thin. So I think that that's one reflector. But yeah, I've seen like, even you'll comment on one of my posts. People are like, why are you okay with this woman? She clearly has a handle that is fatphobic. And I'm like, is it though? Like, but I also, I didn't know. I thought, I thought you had done it from that movie. And then I also, you know, I follow Skinny Confidential for years and years and years, Lauren Everts. And I, I used to just think it was a cool name. And then when I saw her reasoning behind it, it was like, the skinny was all about like the lowdown. It was like, let me give you the skinny on this. Like it was a saying. It wasn't about like,

how to be skinny, these are the tricks. Right. But so in my head, I was like, I know you have, I know you have like rhymes and reasons around it. So one, I don't think it's inherently fatphobic. I think it's a descriptor of yourself. And I think that that's one thing. But I also in my head was like, is it just like the skinny and the fat? Like, you know what I mean? Like if you were talking about pop culture in my head, I was like, she's just talking about the skinny and the fat. Like it's all of it, right? Like all the stuff in the middle. And I think also like, because you use the steak with like the flip-flop so much. And I was like, oh, yeah, like the lean and the fat. Like, I don't know. I always just thought it was that. But I do think, like, for me, if it were,

if it were causing enough problems, I would maybe change it. But I also would challenge people, like, to think on why they inherently believe it is fatphobic. Because I think that if you're like, I'm not skinny and I'm not fat, there is a place for you, right? Like, there is this, like, I don't know. Like, I almost would love to talk to some, somebody who's like a fat creator and like see what their feelings were on it. I personally never have been offended by it. I get really upset when I can't find your handle. I'll say when you get shadow banned. I'm very upset because you're my news channel in the morning. When you were on your trip, I was so annoyed because it sounded different time zone. It wasn't serving it to me first thing in

the morning. I was like, I'm not being served. And that's funny you say that because when I first started a podcast, well, I don't know if you guys even know this. I was going to call the podcast. podcast, the skinny, like you were saying, kind of like the low down, the skinny and fat. And then last minute I was like, no, I'll just name it the same thing. For me personally, I will say, like, it's how I feel about myself and like my body. And I think that at the time when I started my account, it was like a meme account. Yeah. And a lot of the things I related to, which may in maybe in hindsight could have been fatphobic and could have been like I look at some of my pose. like at the beginning and it was like you know why am I you know fat fuck it's like eating all this shit and you know you know I'm so fat inside that I you know I for sure had you know I look at myself today and that's why I always tell people about like aging and when I do like cameos and stuff it's like yeah I am so much more who I am like the way I am today and think about myself and the world and like everything is like so different yeah than like how I was like

I look at those posts and cringe, like, that I'm like, you know, just a lot of stuff about weight. And you could see that. And it was all directed at me, right? I wasn't saying you guys. Yeah. It was at myself. So you could tell that I was like struggling or that I didn't always have the best feelings towards my own body.

And then maybe by using this name or by kind of being open about it and talking about the struggles, I like felt that it was, you know, like confident or that I don't care. It's like owning the storyline. Right? It's like nobody can call you anything if you take it back. Like if you take it yourself, right? So I totally get that. But look at even accounts like diet starts tomorrow. People immediately will go to it being like a diet meme page. And their entire purpose is like the diet starts tomorrow is all about like it because it never has to happen. Like if you talk to them, I've had them on my podcast. They're incredible like they're the Sammy and Ali from Betches. Yeah. They work through their struggles with like their bodies through and like postpartum and stuff and diet culture through. diet starts tomorrow. And so people will naturally assume it's about dieting, but you can't make that assumption because it's actually not. It's not been about that at all. So I think that that's, yeah, I just always find it funny that I think we're very reactive as a culture and obviously because we have been burned so many times. And so it makes sense. But I do think that like if you take a

beat and take a pause, it is more on the receiver how we take things. Especially like my kids when they say something fat or like, I've had to like. I've had to like. like reprogram my head to be like that's not a negative thing like do you know what I mean like you have to be like fat isn't negative that is right factual that is a thing and as long as we're not using it offensively as long as we're not using it as a criticism but I think that's why so many creators have moved away from being like curve creators or plus creators are like no call me fat like just let me own the word because then you like then it loses its power of like insult right like that's why I would I would assume and it and it's such a word though Sarah like when you say it like

it's a gutter role reaction right like oh right you get a little bit like when you were saying before like my friend who's a fat TikTok creator I was like it took me a minute to understand that it's like okay for you to say that that you're not saying it as an insult so yeah we so obviously we have such a long way to go but you were saying before like you do think that there has been like kind of movement towards, I think so. Yeah. Like Fenty Beauty, her runways, her runway shows, like it takes away and it erases so much of what Victoria's Secret did for us so much, right?

Like we are watching people of all different sizes, men, women, everything in between, just like walking and owning and showing up in their bodies. And it just, I don't know, for me, I think that the pendulum is swinging one way to the other. And I just hope that eventually our children go up in a way. world where they don't look at stretch marks and don't know what they are or they don't see fat as inherently bad or don't see thinness as inherently good. I hope that they just understand that genetically we are all so, so different. I hope they understand that, you know, that saying of we can all eat the same things and work out the same ways and we will all still look different.

Like that is essentially what we're meant to do. We will all experience postpartum differently. We will experience mental health differently. The more that we see different, I think the more that we start to see beauty in multifacets as well. And that's been my experience. And it's allowed me to sort of own my own. Even if I don't see it mirrored all the time, that it allows me to kind of stand alone in it. And even though now I do know that like there's a lot of people who look like me, which is very, very cool. We have to sort of see beauty as so multifaceted and also value people beyond their beauty, which I think is also really cool. And not focus. Like as a woman, like think about how many things we could cured, how many things you could have invented and done if we weren't so busy thinking about our

bodies. And I think about that all the time. Yeah, for sure. You are amazing. Everyone, if you don't already, follow the birds papaya on Instagram. And I love you, Sarah. Thank you for coming on. I feel like you're just so like I'm speechless because I feel like you just, no, you're so knowledgeable and so like genuine. And it's an important conversation. I literally want to wanted us to talk about like the Oscars and the slap. But you know what? There are more important things to cover. There is. Yeah. And I'm so grateful. I think it's like such a as somebody who like loves celebrity culture, it can be really like mixed up in how do we navigate all of this space and how do we like love celebrities but also like figure out how to love ourselves and like such

unrealistic standards. And I think there is room for both. Right. I think there is so much nuanced to everything. And I think approaching everything with grace and understand. standing in like the bigger picture is it's kind of my approach to it all, right? And I don't know. I was also very excited to come on this podcast today. It's very fun. I love you, babe. Thank you for coming on. Love you, too. Thanks so much. Everyone, the bird's papaya. Wow. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of Not Skinny but Not Fat. Follow me on Instagram at Not Skinny but Not Fat. Subscribe to the podcast. We don't miss any episodes. Rate the podcast that you love so much on Apple Podcast. And write a little.

little review. If you tell me you did, I'll give you a big virtual smoocharoo. Thank you guys so much for listening and I'll see you next Tuesday.