Not Skinny But Not Fat - Former Bachelor Clayton Echard got a bad rap

Episode Date: August 16, 2022

He broke our current Bachelorette's hearts, and reunited with Susie whom he currently lives with. He got intimate with all 3 women (doesn't every lead do that though???) and dealt with the public's wrath. Today we hear from Clayton- what would he do differently? How did he handle the backlash? What is he focused on? Any suggestions to Bachelor franchise on how to navigate these situations better? Does he blame producers? Would he do it again? + how did it all start? Tune in to find out! Produced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a dear media production. I'm Kat Sadler, and it sure is a beautiful day. After such a bleak year, it's time for some joy, and I cannot wait for you to hear my fresh and fun new show. I crack open about mom life, relationships, wellness, and beauty, all the things. Plus, I have provocative conversations with some of the most fascinating and famous spaces in pop culture. I'm here to lift you up and make you think.

Check out, it sure is a beautiful place. with me and you every Tuesday. This is Amanda Hirsch from the Not Skinny but Not Fat podcast. You might know me from Not Skinny Bonaput on Instagram where I spend my time talking about reality TV, celebrities, everything happening and pop culture. I also talk to some of our favorite celebs and reality TV stars. We talk about what's going on. Tune in every Tuesday and just feel like you're talking a shit with your best.

best friends in your living room here we see you i mean we saw you on michelle's season of the bachelorette you're this big brolic dude you were you know playing football we jumped to conclusions in life right we're like has to be you know prom king has to be you know just this bro, but not really, right? Like your childhood was a little different and the way you grew up and everything. Yeah, I think that's the biggest. Everyone's always heard the phrase, don't judge a book from its cover or by its cover. Sorry, I just butcher that one.

Let me say that one more time. Don't judge a book by its cover. And that, I think, is a really good phrase that pertains to me because I don't think people realize, but I still have days where I look in the mirror and I see the seventh grade version of myself. I see the kid that suffered from body dysmorphia that hated himself, that wasn't confident at all, that struggled with just talking to women. And so I just, I really had a rough go at it when I was that age. And so I don't see often, sometimes when I look in the mirror in the mornings, I don't see who I am now as far as from a physical perspective.

I still have all these internal struggles. And they were really brought to light through the show because, well, I really made some poor decisions, but my body dysmorph has never left me. So that's, every time I look in the mirror, I still think back to like the beginning stages of that. When I struggled in middle and high school with getting outside the friend zone with women, after I went on the show and did a terrible job, the whole like, oh, this guy doesn't know how to interact with women. I mean, that resurfaced, that fear or that thought and feeling that I had when I was young. and I think that I'm now with Susie, my girlfriend. She's beautiful and, like, I'm overall very happy.

But I have these moments where old past feelings resurface. And it leads to tell me, for people that don't know, body dysmorphia, what is that exactly? Yeah. So my understanding from the research that I've done is it's really, it's having a negative view of your own body that I think becomes something more than just a negative view. though it's persistent and it leads to negative emotions for me it's it's it's depression at times it's just a negative self image is what it is uh and i don't see what others see so i don't even when i have had the test done and i can see my body fat percentage is really low i only see the areas of my body that i think are fat and that's what i see overall it's like you need to be in better

shape because you don't like the way your stomach looks. It doesn't matter if the tests reveal that I have an ultra low body fat. It doesn't matter. My brain cannot wrap its head around it or its own mind around it that like, you're not fat, dude. I still just like have these days or if I skip a day or two at the gym or eat something and I'm bloated that I look in the mirror and I just don't like what I see. And I feel like I have to make changes. Do you feel like I feel like with body dysmorphia and a lot of, you know, different eating disorder or body image issues, usually people associate those with only women, right? Yeah. Like we always think like women struggle with this. It's like a female issue. But

here you are. You really saying, no, it's not. Like dudes struggle with it, even dudes that look the way that you do. Yeah. In fact, as I've talked to individuals from a male demographic and even again, done some more reading online, I think this issue plagues a lot of, a lot more men than you'd think. And actually a lot of men that just live in the weight room and just lift constantly, because one of the most fit individuals have the worst bi dysmorphia. It's what's driving them back into the gym. And steroid use. Because they're trying to convince their mind that, like, what you are seeing, like, let's get rid of that. So they look at their body and they're like, I'm not cut enough. You know, I'm not defined. So let me take some performance enhancers to get there.

So then once I do that, maybe then I'll finally stop stressing over this negative self-image that I have. Maybe I'll finally love myself for who I am. And it's a vicious cycle. I mean, I have not taken any performance enhancers and I'm not going to because I don't want the negative side effects that comes with it. But have I had those thoughts that, yeah, if I took a performance enhancer, I would be a little bit more lean and it might eradicate my body dysmorphia issues. Yeah, I absolutely have had that thought a lot of times. Thankfully, I just am not willing to risk my health for it. And I've been able to get a better grasp on it in the last year or two where I think that

I don't know if I'll ever eradicate it, but I can manage it. Yeah. So you were saying this started in seventh grade. What was going on with you in seventh grade? Were you a chubby kid? Did you feel different than the other kids in your class? Or was it always just like an internal struggle? So I never got my body fat red in middle school.

But I would say I had a terrible diet. But, you know, as a kid, you can eat everything in sight and you seemingly don't put any weight on. But I was eating pizza and macaroni and cheese and corn dogs. That was my diet for like all of seventh grade and up until through high school because I am a creature of routine. And I still, I mean, I love Chipotle now. So Chipotle is my new thing. But I eat Chipotle three or four times a week. I just, I'm a creature of habit.

What's your, what's your Chipotle order? It's, uh, so I usually get two bowls to go, two bowls to go, two tortillas on the side. I get white rice, extra white rice, no beans, Benita veggies, polloosado, and a scoop of just regular chicken, pico corn, guac lettuce, and the secret ingredients, the salad dressing that you have to put on top. Oh, you ask for the salad dressing on top? Yes. You ask for the salad dressing on top. And then you said two types of chicken. Yeah, there's just a, like, they have the new pollo assato.

It's just, it's different flavoring of the chicken. So I just. I can't believe you get two Chipotle. Well, I usually just get one for lunch and then one for dinner or for another time. So I eat a lot of Chipotle, but I just, I've always been a creature of habit and I like comforts. And in my life now, I'm pushing myself outside of my comfort zone in a lot of ways. I'm now cooking, like actually. I saw that.

Yeah, that's been fun because the real drive behind that is I get to do it with Susie. So we actually have a ton of fun and it makes me want, like look forward to cooking. But in the reality, if I didn't have her around, I wouldn't. be probably cooking as often because it's I just rather would just make something simple for the entire week like meal prep once and then eat the same thing for six meals out of the out of the week which is what I did prior to the show when I lived in Columbia, Missouri. I ate the same meal prep for 10 meals out of the week. Same thing for lunch and dinner. Wow. Okay. So how does a dude like you that, you know, has these different struggles end up on reality TV? Like did it feel like weird for you

and for people surrounding you being like, playing that's not your vibe or what was it like? Yeah, I think people that were closest to me really questioned if going on reality television would be good for me because they knew that I was, I'm an introverted extroverts. I mean, probably more so introverted. I don't really care to, you know,

I like to sit in the background. I like to be in my high school. I'd sit, I'd be at parties, but I'd just be in the background, just kind of exist. thing. I was never the life of the party. So, yeah, I think for reality TV getting cast out in this spotlight, most of my loved ones would have been like, this isn't, this isn't you. Like, you're going to be at the forefront of it all. But when I first went on it, I was just one of 30

contestants. And long story short, I was not happy with where I was at in life. I was 28 years old when one of the recruiters came out and reached out to me via. Oh, so they reached out to you. Yeah, on Instagram. Yeah. I got an Instagram like three, four months prior. So I just got an Instagram because I was I felt that Facebook was becoming outdated so none of my friends were on it. I couldn't keep up with them. So I was like, okay, I have to get an Instagram now. So I did. And then about three months. Wait, what were you posting that they seeked you out? I feel like they look for like, you know, a certain. I, fitness, fitness hashtags. So I went on, I started my first few posts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I put on like hashtag fitness on my first few Instagram posts because

I was, you know, I had a passion for fitness. And I was like, okay, I want to be able to help people out and just give them, you know, knowledge base and provide that for them. And so they, I guess they found me through the hashtag, yeah. That is so funny. Hashtags. People don't use hashtags as much. But yeah, everyone, I mean, you don't even have to explain it.

Everybody, you know, used to use hashtags. Like I used to pose before my Instagram, but like my personal one, I'd be like, hashtag sunny day. hashtag beautiful girl like everybody fucking did that so that's fun that's interesting I never thought about how casting directors find you so they reach out to you and they're like

do you want to be in the Bacheloret uh yeah and exactly what they said and at first I thought it was spam I was like this is there's no way that this is the actual show because I knew of the show I'd seen maybe four episodes well maybe 10 episodes total my mom watched it growing up all the time

so I'd always kind of like would walk by and see her watching it and yeah my at the time my I thought, these guys are, these people are all just, uh, looking for, you know, for fame. And, and maybe there's some, you know, reality to that. But I just thought, uh, like, to go on reality TV, you got to, you got to kind of be desperate. You got to be this, this and this. And I had a lot of incorrect assumptions. Uh, but I just was like, not into it. I didn't watch reality television. I just, that wasn't my thing. I'd watch

documentaries. And so anyways, this recruiter reached out and I was like, I'll just entertain this. Like, I'll, I'll kind of start going through the process. But like, at the time, I was happy with my current position with work and I was looking for a new job and I was about to actually had a contract in my email to take a new job. I went to my boss and told him and he was like, you don't want to take that. He's like, that's a trap. He's like, I'm just telling me. He's like, I care about you. And he really was looking out for me. And he said, did they tell you this, this and this? I said, no. He goes, go back and ask him. I did. Sure enough, they were withholding information. And then I thought, oh my gosh, this is bad. So I was like, thank you. He's like,

absolutely. But then I realized that I was like, well, now they know that I'm potentially looking to move. So I'm on very shaky ground right now. So meanwhile, I was talking to this recruiter and I kept taking more interviews and they kept being like, we love you. And next thing you know, at the end of it all, when my, you know, things were shaky, they were like, we want to bring you on the show. And I thought, well, if, you know, if I'm going to jump, I'm going to jump now because like it's everything's so uncertain at this point. So that was the push I needed was to be in an unstable environment for me to make. Did you leave your job or did you take like a vacation? I told them about it and they said, okay, how long is it going to be? I said up to two months.

And they said, okay, I will, you know, you can come back when you're done whenever that is. And if things change, we'll, we'll let you know. So that was, that was the way it was left. So did you know Michelle was going to be the Bachelorette? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, that was my big thing was, so my reasoning for them taking the opportunity because, again, I, I, I wasn't looking to get famous. Like, I wasn't looking to push my career. Really what I was hoping to do was I was like, okay, I probably won't get chosen by Michelle because that's a one and 30 chance. I was like, so the odds are stacked against me. But I figured if I were so pragmatic, Clayton. Oh, I just. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I'm not going to chose then. This is what going to happen. Okay. But I was like, I thought I'm like, you know what? Like, she's a teacher. My mom. I was like, my mom's a teacher. I have a lot of respect for them.

Like, she seems very down to earth. She doesn't seem like super wild where we won't have a connection. She's athletic. So I, we had a lot of, like, things that she had a lot of things that I liked about her. And I thought, okay, like, this is a girl that I can see myself dating. So I felt very comfortable like, okay, I'm actually going to go here with the intention of potentially developing something. But I had in the back of my mind, I mean, one of 30 guys, what are the chances I'll be

the guy? So I just figured, okay, you'll go on the show, you'll be yourself. you're going to get set home at some point, but then like some girl somewhere is going to watch this show and be like, I like that guy. Where did he say he was at? Columbia?

And I figured they'd reach out to me on social media. I'd find my person via that by casting this wider net. They'd come to Columbia. And I'd have my same job and we'd live happily ever after. So that was my thought. It was like, okay, like I'll find my person

by casting a wider net because I just wasn't finding what I was looking for in Columbia at the time. Were you on dating apps? Yeah, and I will say a lot of it too. I met a lot of incredible women, but I mentally wasn't, like, I mentally wasn't maybe giving some people chances. I kept, every time that I would get more serious, I'd kind of freak out because it had been

like five years prior that I was in a serious relationship. And so I kept finding myself not really like ready to open up, which going then on the season with Michelle, I thought, well, I was like, I'll give it a chance, but I still was like kind of guarded and protected of like that part of me. And then just because I also, I guess the way I phrased it my head was like, you probably won't be chosen. But then all of a sudden I started like kind of like let my guard down. And I really like, I really liked on that last date that I went on the museum date.

I was like, this girl's really cool. Like I actually really like her. And so I. Yeah, and I got some home. So. But, but in that moment, I was like, wow. Like I actually for the first time finally looked at somebody since like my last girlfriend that I was viewing her in the lens of like, I can see my, I can see a life with this person.

And it felt good. It was exciting and it just reminded me of like being in a relationship and what that felt like because I hadn't felt that in so long. And so it opened me back up to it. And I was like, I really want to be in a relationship now. Like a lot of this was a mental block of my own doing. But now like Michelle has opened me back up to like wanting to actually date. And I'm not going to keep putting up these walls. Well, that's really cool because you did like Michelle is one of the best. I feel like people in bachelor. I remember when she got. I was kind of like she's too good for the franchise like you know what I mean like she's just so just a normal girl so I feel like you really hit the mark with that one I forget

though bring me back to the when she sent you home on the one on one did you do the crying in the cab like I'm not good enough like the thing that everybody does or were you not as broken that word that was my that was my catchphrase

for all of my season but Now, I didn't cry when she sent me home because I was a little, well, again, I knew that it was a potential, it was a possibility because she sent me home and if I would have been given a rose, I would have been at her, like she would have, we would have been at hometowns. So she would have met my family. So there were eight men left at that point, but I was, you know, I was going to be, I was the first want to get that one on one that week. So it was like, do or die. It's like either you're going to be knocked out at somewhere in number four to eight or you're going to make it in the hometown. So I was like in that spot and I knew the stakes were high.

So I was like, just be yourself, enjoy this date, make the most of it. And but I had in the back of my head, I was like, okay, like this could be the last, the end of the line for you because the next thing she's going to do is meet your family if she decides to give you a rose. And so the date I thought went really well. It was fun. We enjoyed it. And I was feeling really confidence.

And so when she picked up the rose. rose. And then she said, but I was like, oof. And I at that point, like, I knew, but I knew prior because I started reading her body language towards the end of the dates. I think she respected me. She liked me as a person, but she was just like, I have four of the stronger contenders, people that I like, that I like more. And this is just the end of the line for him. So when she sent me home, I went into the cab and I was just happy. I was happy. Like, not because she sent me home, but because I was just like, this was a really great experience. And I feel that like I, I, she helped me learn a lot about myself and I feel valued and I feel ready to tackle the next stage of my life.

But then I end up crying when the kids broke the letters because I just, I envisioned them being like my, my kids. Like the one girl, she said, I wish I had an older brother like you. And I felt like in that moment that I was her older brother, but I also thought like, I was reading it from the perspective of if I had a daughter, that this is, this might be what she would write to me. And it's just like, I just burst out. I couldn't hold it.

Oh, because. one of your date she took you to her classroom, right? Yeah, not to the classroom, but like we had a, the kids came through to the hotel we were at and we did like a fun day. We built pillow forts. We were drawing. I got my nails painted. And then so I met some of them there.

And then I met more of the kids while on that one-on-one date. They were standing outside before we went into the museum. And the two kids got Kelsey and Luke, or brother and sister. and they, yeah, they were the ones that wrote me the letters. Just Thrive. Gonna be okay. Just Thrive.

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and how are you feeling, you know, given your, the things that you struggle with? that house with 30 bros, you know, that did you have this competitive side come out? Were you feeling insecure? Like, what was going through your mind in that way? Oh, yeah. I was, yeah, very insecure. I've been a very insecure person most of my life. I battle with it. I go back and forth. I think in this last six, seven months, I've been forced to address it. And that's why overall I have a very positive of outlook on what's all happened to me because I had to find I was like you have to love yourself before no one else is going to like be you can't expect everyone else to love you

you have to love yourself but when I was on Michelle's season I had so much support from those guys I talked about it openly I was like I just I'm like I don't feel like I compare to y'all some of you guys I mean the first person I saw was Nate when I happened to like come out of my room to like go down to the limo I saw Nate six foot eight guy very good looking dude and I was like oh my gosh like I might go home tonight And I was like, and then I, like, limo after limo, these guys, they're coming down the steps. And I'm like, these dudes are good looking guys. And then I'm like, what do you do for work?

And one guy's like, I play in the NFL right now. The other guy's like, oh, I'm an entrepreneur. I have two companies and other guys like, you know, tech sales. And I'm like, these dudes are not slouches. They have like, they got the looks. They got the background. They're funny. They're like, all this stuff.

And I was just like, I questioned. I was like, man, this is probably going to be a night one exit for you, man. You're just, you don't, you don't hold a candle to them. But I started having these conversations throughout the season, and these dudes, like, there was so much people didn't see where we were having heart to hearts with each other where guys were like, hey, dude, get that mindset out of your head. Like, there's a reason you're here. Like, you are very much. Like, you should be very happy with who you are as a human being. Like, you're very impressive.

And that was like, that was happening. I had that with Nate. Nate and I had that conversation one day. One time he had my back. One time I was there for him when he needed it. Brandon, my best friend from the show. I was going to ask who are you still close with from the show?

Most of them, honestly. I mean, I, my closest relationship is with Brandon. That man continues to teach me more and more. He is such a sweetheart. And he taught me the power of journaling. He taught me the power of doing the little things,

just keeping your significant other in mind. Since I was his roommate, I watched him as he did these things on the show. And I now implement them in my life and just waking up every day and trying to do one thing to show Susie that I love her and care for her. Just being mindful of that, it goes so, such a long way. And that was something that he taught me. It was just you don't have to do, you don't have to allocate 10 hours out of your day or give someone more time. What you have to do is give them more effort. Like that's all that

matters. And if that's a five second act, as simple as me, she likes to brush your teeth in bed. So if I get up in the morning and I put some toothpaste on her toothbrush and bring it to her while she's laying there, like that just those little things add up. And I think, how does she brush her teeth and where did she spit it? So she gets out of bed. But what she does is Susie gets, she wakes up. She goes, puts her toothpaste on, then goes back to bed, lays down, brushes her teeth and gets back up, goes, spits it out.

She just likes to brush her teeth in bed. That's so cute. Okay. So I love to hear that. So lots of support, which I wish we did see more of, especially, you know, with the girls, because we know how lots of these seasons in the Bachelor franchise, and I do want to talk to you about that later in our conversation is like, you know, we get to see a lot of the bullying and a lot of that.

And it's sad to see that there is this support network that made you feel better. And that we don't get to see as much, but I'm happy to know that it exists. Wait, so what's wild about you is that you were announced Bachelor before we saw, you on Michelle's season, correct? Yeah, yeah, it was, gosh, I mean, when I got sent home, I was from Michelle's season. I was back on a plane within a month to go start airing or start filming my season.

So it was a quick, very quick turnarounds. And nobody knew who I was. Like nobody, yeah, when they announced me as a bachelor or when it leaked or whatever you want to say, Michelle's season hadn't even aired yet. Oh, it leaked. It wasn't supposed to leak. Like, we weren't supposed to know.

I don't think it was an official announcement from ABC. Oh. Yeah. Okay. So we find out that you're the bachelor. We're like, that usually doesn't happen, right? We're like, wait, who's this dude? We haven't seen him before.

And then it's like, oh, he's going to be on Michelle's season. And then we assume it's like we go in with such high expectations from you, right? We're like, apparently this dude Clayton, he's going to be on Michelle's season. season. He's already The Bachelor, so we know he either goes really far, leaves a huge mark. Like, what was that pressure like knowing that the whole world is just waiting to form opinions and see like why you were chosen before even really giving you the opportunity to show us? Yeah. Well, that was out of my hands at that point because it was up to the editors. As far as I'm like, you have to, they're going to show what they show.

And either it's going to be a bachelor worthy at it, quote unquote, or people are going to be left asking, wait, that's it? Like, why is this guy our bachelor? But it's a great. Oh, you mean of your time on Michelle's season? Yes. Yeah. And I, because I read that as I was going in before I, or as I was on my season and stuff, people were questioning, why, who is this dude? What is it?

And I guess when I finished filming, then I started watching Michelle's season. And I saw the comments and people are like, where is this? where like why is this like I wasn't and I wasn't maybe shown a lot but I think this is where I would say from a show standpoint it had it I think it's important people have to keep in mind that like it was Michelle's season right it was her season and it was a very interesting like a very interesting dynamic where like the current or upcoming bachelor was already announced while it was her season. Right. And so I think like the show in my opinion was trying to protect the integrity of her season and not take away from her by highlighting me. And so I think that's why I wasn't shown

as much as I was shown, which I was perfectly fine with. I was like, I don't, I wouldn't want to take away from Michelle either. Like she's an incredible woman. She deserves her own season. This focus needs to be on her. So this is all just a speculation at the end of the day. But I mean, yeah, I was shown for the time that I was shown and then people were like well okay either they were happy by what they saw or they were still like well I don't feel like I know enough about this guy yeah I feel like if you were given you know just Clayton another contestant on Michelle season and that stood alone without the pressures of we're watching you and we have to see why you you know deserve to be the bachelor that would feel like so much less pressure you know what I mean on you like it usually

goes, I feel like, you find out at the end. And here it's like, it was before it aired. So you're like, you go into it, kind of expecting, okay, what happened? You know, what was this huge, you know, moment that made him the bachelor? So you were saying that you were reading some comments. You were doing that, which isn't, you know, so smart, but I get it. Yeah, no, it was terrible for my mental health. I, but I just, curiosity has always gotten the best of me.

and I kept having people telling me time and time again to stop doing it. Everybody I spoke to, I mean, they were like, you have to stop. It's not going to help you. It's only going to hurt you. But my thought was, was I was reading it because I wanted to know just what people were saying, but I also was wanting to see if I could somehow change that narrative or, yeah, it was my people-pleaser mentality that I've sensed, like, realize I have to shake off. But at the time, I was trying to figure out, like, okay, here's what people are saying.

somehow address this so that they no longer feel this way. And this just stems from when I was a child. I just never, I always felt like I was in the shadows of my brother who was a stud athlete two years younger than me. I just, I felt like I was, I was always seeking attention. And I never felt valued. And my parents were loving. They were incredible. This was all placed on my own shoulders by my own self. But I think that I always had been a people pleaser. And second, I heard any bit of criticism. I was like, how do I fix this? It didn't even have to be, it could be, it could, it didn't have to be even constructive. It could have been flat out, just straight up hatred towards me. And I'd still read it and be like, how can I get them to like see this? Like you.

Like me. How are they going to like me? And I, and I just kept trying to do that. I'd read these comments. But I will say that in a way, it did actually benefit me to continue reading them because I realized that I was immature. I lacked empathy at points during my season. And I, had a lot of growing up to do. And so reading these comments, while some of them weren't constructive, maybe a lot of them weren't, there were actually some constructive ones in there. And one of the most constructive comments that I read and many variations of it, but they said something, you know, Clayton continues to defend his actions post show.

I don't have, you know, I don't think his intentions were bad. The problem is that he's, it seems like he's choosing not to see the other side. Like he, I think his intentions were pure, but he's not taking accountability for his actions. And he's, and he doesn't seem to be putting himself in their shoes. And I read that and I just kept digesting it. And I thought about it. And I was like, you know what? When you were the bachelor, like, you never did step back and try to put yourself in their shoes.

You assumed, I made assumptions that everyone saw things through my lens, that like he's the bachelor. So this is, this is how the show happens. This is what happens. and there's no surprises. But that was my massive mistake was making these assumptions. First of all, I do want to give you some credit here because I also thought that you did a very cute job on, you know,

Twitter. You would make fun of yourself, which we always love to see. You had some great self-deprecating tweets, whether it was about, what was that like a sweater you were wearing or? Yeah, yeah, I was wearing the hoodie blazer combo. Which I still feel like that's fashionable, but I was getting ripped for it.

But I was like, I don't, I would have, and I said that on Twitter, I said, if it was up to me, I would have won this every single, every single episode. They shut that down very quickly. Yeah. So I like that. I like that you had those, you know, self-deprecating moments and good for you for listening, you know, trying to find, I mean, because Batchar Nation fans and, you know, the really intense ones. They can be, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a big, big group of people that have very, very strong opinions. So I can't, you know, imagine what you went through. But let's talk about your season for a second.

So first of all, I want to know going into being the bachelor, you're saying that it was a month between when you ended on Michelle's season to going on your own. When you were offered this, were you immediately down? Did you have any moments where you were like, oh, should I do this? Should I not do it? or were you just like, let's go? I was all in. I had such an incredible experience on Michelle's side of things, on The Bachelorette that when they came to me,

I just, the first time they said it, like, well, what do you think about being The Bachelor? I was like, I just, I was standing and I was like, oh, and I just like my massive grin on my face. And I'm like, you know what? Normally I'd say, let me take a few, you know, days to think about it. And they were like, well, you can. You definitely can.

Yeah, no. I was like I had so much fun on this side of things. I was like being on the drivers in the driver's seat where I am able to have kind of able to make those decisions. And like I will end up if I choose to like finding love from this. And it's a guarantee almost because on the other side as a contestant, I was one of 30. So I was like, that's the one in 30 chance of finding love. Whereas I'm like, okay, now I have 30 times the chance of finding love on this side of things. And so I was like, yeah, I'm down. I'm here to. like settle down and find a relationship. So, yeah, this is like a no-brainer. Okay. And did you, night one, do you feel like looking back, if you could place yourself there? Could you see Susie being like a standout? Like, did she stand out to you?

Did you feel like a bigger connection with her than with other girls? Yeah. I mean, she knows this. We had a really great connection night one. I liked her a lot. She was my first one-on-one. So, I mean, I, you know, I liked her a bunch. But, you know, again, there was, it wasn't, it was enough to put her in, like,

the top, whatever you want to call it, right? Like, I had to, in my head conceptualize, okay, 30 people here. And it's kind of just the way the system goes. Like, you, you don't want to rank, but in your head, you're like, I have to know who my strongest connections are night one. So you kind of build this mental list. And yeah, she was, she was somebody that left a massive impression on me, night one. And I was like, I like, I like, I liked this girl. But I also at the time, like, liked a lot of other people, too. I was like, these small, a lot of these women, I was like, are incredible. And I'm from a small town of Missouri. You'd be lucky if you found one of these women. I was like, and here's 30 incredible ones. I'm like, I'm on cloud nine. I'm totally in over my head. But I was just so giddy. I was so

excited. I was like, this is crazy. Like, I'm going to definitely find my person. I mean, it is like the dream, right? It's like, here's 30 good looking, you know, smart women that are here for you. I mean, I feel like that's every man's dream. Did you feel off the get-go that the bachelor experience for you was as good as being a contestant on Michelle's season where you had such a great time or were you like,

wait, this isn't feeling like the same vibe? Yeah, I mean, again, it's all perspective and it all depends on timing. So how did you ask me this a few months ago? I would have said I regret all of this. I wish I wouldn't have done. And I said that on interviews. I was like, I would never do it again.

But, you know, that's where insight and sometimes you just need to let time go by and pass. And then you can have, you can gain a new perspective. Now that I look back at it, I had equally just as much fun on one side as the other for different reasons. Like on Michelle's side of things, I just enjoyed meeting these guys that I'm still close with. And so, like, I, those are friends for a lifetime. So we just, I enjoy just bro-in out. There was so many things that we did that were off-camera, like just having pool days, you know, DJing and like just part in it up in the hotel.

Like we had so much good, so many good times. On the, you know, lead side of it, I got to do crazy, crazy things. Like the dates were incredible. I never traveled. I never went to Europe ever prior. So I got to go twice, you know, to Vienna, Austria and Havar, Croatia. And I got to go to Iceland. and, like, I was just blown away.

I was taking helicopters and landing on yachts and jumping off the yachts. And it was just, it was, it was mind-blowing to me. I was like, this is absolutely incredible that I get to have these experiences. It was fun in that aspect of, like, it opened my eyes to this whole new world that I had never seen from the conference of Missouri. Oh, my God. Ph.D. Feminine Health. They're reinventing holistic feminine care.

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Susie. You get to the fantasy suites, which we all know is like, you know, you either do something intimate, talk all night. I mean, we assume what fantasy sweets are, okay? And then Susie asks you if you were intimate slash if you told other people you love them and you admitted that you that you have and she gets really upset and tells you that she can't see herself doing this and you

send her home you got mad at her right for like you were kind of like wait what the fuck yeah I had again my insecurities resurfaced at that point I thought is she just looking for a way out that was in my head I was like she's she's planning her exit right now

completely false but that was my narrative that I basically persuaded myself because it felt like the way I by the way might have thought that too for a moment like when I was watching there was a moment where I was like wait I mean I just want people to also see your side because I know that you're remorseful and I want to hear what you have to say but I also think as a viewer we are skeptical of these people right like we're like why'd you come are you trying to be famous are you like what's your vibe? So I think that it, as a viewer, I was also like, wait, but she knows like what goes down and like, why would you all of a sudden leave? Like maybe she's not that into him. I feel like it's, it's, it was a thought that crossed our minds as well as viewers.

I will say. Yeah. And I, I think people saw my perspective, but where a lot of people were upset was how I treated her in that moment. To which like I absolutely was embarrassed by and very remorseful and, and wish that I would have went about it differently. But I was very, yeah, insecure in that moment. And I thought I convinced myself.

I was like, she's looking for a way out. And then my mind instantly went to what if the other women that are still here are also looking for their outs or going to? And so then I was like, I can't trust anything right now. Like I, this whole thing has been a lie. And so I just convinced myself of it. And I became very freaked out because, yeah, we all know that like here for the right reasons. I mean, that phrase is constantly echoed by fans.

But we all know that as contestants, too, that a lot of these people are probably here to advance their careers in some way, shape, or form because it does offer career advancement opportunities. So we're not blinded by that or we're not, we're very cognizant of that. And as the lead, you always question, like, are you here for me or are you here to just make it to a certain point? And then you're going to hop off just at the right time to get that bachelor or bachelorette edits. So it's, it's just a fear that you have that will lead or not. It's like, you realize that you're like, I could be being played right now. I mean, and that's what that was, that was always a thought on my mind. Did the producers try to chill you out?

Like, what was, what was their involvement in those moments? Like, how did they support you? Yeah. I mean, again, I think you have to understand that, like, they also, I mean, I don't know how much they know, but there's so many of them. and I had my, you know, producers, and they were shocked. At the time, like, they were like, whoa, you know, but like, and I, and I had a producer that she was in tears.

I mean, she was absolutely bawling her eyes out. She was like, I feel so bad. Like, I know you wanted this to work so badly. And it meant a lot to me because, like, it was a true emotion was coming out. And so I was, they were there and they were trying to console me. But, but, yeah, I mean, ultimately, I, I, and Jesse was incredible. Jesse was there, I mean, checking in on me on and off camera and was like, dude, like we, I mean, he was there for me every step of the way. But like, I had convinced myself at that point that I was questioning everything and I was in this very volatile position.

And I just, yeah, I don't know if at that point anyone was really going to get through to me. Because it feels like to look at it like the most like broken down to me and tell me if you're great is like, you were kind of like, why the hell? how am I getting in trouble for something that I'm supposed to do here, right? Like, I went, I did the thing that everybody does. Like, why is this, why is she mad? Like, why is she even mad? Why is this going to mean that we can't continue? Like, I don't get it.

And, and yes, you were, I remember you had some aggressions. It was coming out. Do you think, like, you were so angry because you were just so upset that Susie, who you thought would, like, probably make it to the end is, literally leaving? Yeah, I mean, I hadn't made my decision fully at that point as far as if it was going to be her or not. But I was, I was leaning towards her at that point.

I was like this, I go, you know, in my head, I thought, you don't know what's going to happen tonight as far as conversations when the camera stopped rolling. She might drop of something on you, some news that, like, you can't move forward with her. So I, I was like, nothing's a guarantee. We might find that there's a pressure point that it's like we can't get past. So I, but I, you know, after having. the previous two dates, I thought, okay, like, I will know at the end of this date, who I'm going to end up with. Like, this is like the last date of the week. And then going

forward, I was like, I'll have basically all the answers. Like, I can't keep holding, you know, like I have to make a decision, right? I don't want to make a decision on proposal day. I want to make sure I make this decision before that point. But, yeah, I mean, I, what I, what, where the breakdown was is, and I want to be careful in the way I say this, because it's just like, I don't want to defend what I was doing, but in my head, I thought, like, I had adapted to this environment of polyamory, of dating multiple people. And I adapted to it and became this person who was compartmentalizing relationships. And like, when I was with that person, I was with this person. Then when I was with that person, I was dating that person. And so I was

forcing myself essentially to, like, be in this polyamorous environment. And I adapted to it, but Susie never did. Susie was just dating me the entire time. Nobody else, and she had this monogamous mindset, and as I look back at it now as a monogamous person, I'm like, that's disgusting. Like what you did, like you, you shouldn't have taken these actions. Like, what makes you think you were going to be into it with somebody and then two days later proposed to someone?

Like, it's just like I, and this is just my opinion. Some people look at it differently, but I look back at it now and I'm like, you, you, or a monogamous person, like, that's the way you view it as far as when it comes to being in a serious relationship. This is where the disconnect was. It was like, you were living in this reality. She was living in this reality. It came to a head.

And I couldn't falter at all for it in that moment. But I was just shocked because in that moment on the show, I thought, well, don't you understand how the show works? Right. Right. Do you think she would have left if you wouldn't have been like, can I walk you out? Do I think she would have left if I wouldn't have said that? Yeah, because it, I remember on the show, it's kind of like,

you told her, do you think she would have left anyway? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think she, I think she was just wanting to talk longer and I was done. I was like, I don't want to continue this conversation. Like she was wanting to like continue the conversation and just like be able to leave on a good note. She was trying to like, she's like, I don't really like how this is being left. I want to leave on a good note if possible. And I was like, no, I'm done. I don't want to hear. You would too. Gotcha. What would you have done differently in that situation looking back, Clayton? Taking a deep breath and not just went, jump to conclusions.

I mean, my biggest mistake was making assumptions. If I knew what I knew now, I would have went back and I would have said, okay, let me actually try to see things from her perspective, as opposed to me trying to convince her of like why I'm thinking the way that I do. Like, I was trying to get her to see my side, but I should have spent more time trying to see her side. Gotcha. And then the next kind of scene we have is, you know, the infamous Gabby and Rachel. crying their eyes out for you.

I mean, really, like, wow. I remember the tears were intense. And it was because at that point, did you remind me, did you decide to call off the ceremony? Were you done? Why were they crying? Because I kind of blindsided them.

Like, you know, I really poured into those relationships, but to hear that somebody that you care about has expressed feelings to other people and has been intimate with other people. Oh, you told them, right, you announced it to them and that's why they were so upset. Yeah, and rightfully so. I mean, it's not, you don't want to hear that. But I just, I felt like I had to be transparent and honest, but obviously like that is terrible

to hear. And so you don't, nobody wants to hear that when they care about somebody. I mean, right. But also, there is the side that that is the show. And I mean, Ben Higgins did it. Ben Higgins told very loved, right? Ben Higgins is one of the most loved bachelors. He told, I remember he was like the first that did it.

He told Jojo and Lauren that he was falling from them both. Yeah, I mean, I guess from what I know is I didn't do anything that hasn't been done before. I was just more vocal about it than anybody has ever been. My thought, again, at the time was I need to tell these women because if I do move forward with both of them or like, and then eventually just one of them, what I've done is going to come out, right? So, like, they need to know. And I thought if they're going to move forward with me, they need to know everything now. I don't, I don't want to, like, push this off and have to tell them down the line.

So I just felt that it was important to, like, leave it all out there. I thought if Susie left after, like, hearing this information, then I deserve to tell these women, like, they deserve to know as well. So they can make that decision if they want to stay or not. I don't want to continue to, like, hold them here, not knowing the full story, was my thought. sorry clean i'm literally like now bring myself back and i'm like why because that is the show i mean three get to go on fantasy suites usually they're intimate in some shape or form we all know the scene you wake up next to the person you're like that's such a good night i mean even if you don't say i love you like the lead does go to fantasy suites with three women and i don't think we've

ever seen a situation or maybe we have and i can't remember maybe it was colton where he was like just Cassie, but where the lead does have feelings for the final three and does want to spend the night with them in some shape or form, the lead doesn't say to one of them, like, listen, I'm not that into you, like the other girl, I actually love you not so much. Like, I feel like the lead is always kind of making it seem, especially the way it's edited to us, is like, we don't know who's going to win because we kind of see the lead viving with the final three. So why were people so angry with you?

that's not you know that's not my question to ask I guess at the end of the day it's not my decision to choose what why people see me the way they do I mean I think my honesty in the way that I don't want to say even that like it makes it seem like I'm trying to make an excuse or just say like oh it's just honesty my actions and the way that I handle things were different from what anyone else has done as far as just the way that I chose to go about it people didn't like that I did the dual breakup with both of them people didn't like the fact that I convinced them to stay and then end up breaking up the second time. I was, you know, seen as I was dragging them along. And, you know, like, I get it. Like, I totally get it. My actions, like, I'm embarrassed

by them. And at the end of the day, I realized that I was like, I don't deserve, I shouldn't ask the question of why me and why did they not go after other people? I'm thankful that people didn't, like, the fans didn't go after. Right. People that have done this in the past, like they did me, because it's a lot. And I think it's really will tear somebody down. But I don't, I don't look at it like, why didn't you guys go after them? I just figured, I looked at it like, Clayton, this is your reality, and how can you become a better human being from all this? Don't, you can't, you can't, you can control what you can control.

Don't ask the why questions as far as why me, ask, you know, how can I become a better individual from all this? Like, why? The only why I had is, you know, why am I going through this as then from, you know, what can I, what's the greater reason for the, for all of this happening to me? It was meant to be me. And I was meant to take those actions so that I could grow, address my ego, address my people-pleasing weakness.

And I had to be torn all the way down in order for me to build myself back up stronger. So I don't have any question now about why I had to go through what I went through. Tell me how you and Susie then rekindled your relationship. Because then we see you on after the final rose and you're back together. Yeah, she reached out to me shortly after the show. She just needed some time to clear her head after all that happened. She said, listen, like, she basically told me since, like, I saw something in you, and I saw that there was potential.

Like, I knew that you'd screwed up, but I wasn't happy with what, not even that I, like, she wouldn't even say that I screwed up. She was, she was like, I get why you did what you did. I just didn't agree with it. But I wasn't going to hold that against. She's like, I didn't like how it all happened, but she's like, I just felt that I should reach out to you. I felt that there was potential for this to be, to be something still.

So she gave me a second chance and thankfully she did because I don't know if I would have made it through. I don't think I would have had the growth that I've had if it wasn't for her alone. I mean, the most beautiful thing of it at all is, and Susie and I are like any other humans. We don't have, we can't see in the future. We've had this conversation many times. Like, are we each other's person? Like, and what if we're not? And we said ultimately we came to this decision like we don't need to be in a relationship for anybody other than ourselves.

We're not doing this for bachelor nation or anything like that. But we both came to the conclusion that we're like, you know what, no matter what happens, we'll forever be thankful for being a part of each other's life because we both made each other better human beings. You guys are so deep. Yeah, I mean, we don't know if this relationship. We're like, we don't know if it's going to be a month long from here, if it's going to be lifetime.

But like, there's no pressure. Like, let's just love each other and be thankful that like, and we are thankful that we're in each other's life. So whatever that looks like, I mean, we're very, very happy right now and in a really great spot. But, yeah, we've, man, we went through it together, though. thankfully. She's been on my side. It's the only reason why I can sit here with so much positivity because of her. Wow. Are you living together currently? Yeah, currently. We are in

Virginia Beach. But our next step actually is I'm moving to Scottsdale and she's going to move in the interim to L.A. Only a 50 minute flight apart, but we're both chasing our dreams. And I think for location-wise, we both feel that those are the spots that we want to be. But again, we see it as like, I mean, I'm working on my computer 10, 12 hours a day. So she was like, Clayton, I just I'll move to LA and then we can travel on the weekend to see each other. And we'll see. I mean, we don't know if we're going to like that long distance. Right. I'm worried. I'll be honest, this worries me. This news worries me. Yeah, and I get that. But we are aware of that too. We're like, you know, people might look at it as like, oh, they're separating. But this past weekend,

she went to film a wedding and I missed the hell out of her. And like, when she came back, it was like that distance makes the heart go fonder. I mean, we haven't been able to keep our hands off each other. We've just been like attached to each other's side. And so I think, I think a little distance, you know, never hurts because we've been sitting some days, we sit by each other 10 hours of the day on our computers. And you might be close. She's a wedding for, she's a wedding photographer. Yeah, wedding photographer, but she knows, she wants to, she has her own dreams and aspirations. And I think we're going to give it a shot. We're not, I mean, if it doesn't work and like, we're like, we're like, we don't like this distance. It's hurting us. Then we'll just, we'll just,

one of us will move to the other person. What do you have to say to this season of the Bachelorette? Have you watched? What do you think of the two Bacheloretts? Are you happy for Rachel and Gabby. What'd you think of the night one digs? Yeah, overall, I just wish those two nothing but the best. I mean, after everything that they've been through, I just want them to be happy. You know, they didn't deserve what all I'd happen to them.

And so I just want to see them find the happiness that I found. And so that's the way that I see it. I mean, I've watched a few of the episodes for this season. And I just look at it at the end of the day, like, you know, the digs night one, they're just digs. I mean, it's Matthew Gahanah, I listened to his book, Greenlight, audio book, loved it. And one of the things he put in there was when it comes to Hollywood,

it's not personal, it's just business. So I really believe that. And I don't hold a grudge. I don't think that I'm not mad at anybody for saying something night one. I'm like, whatever. Like, it's just business. You know, like the show is meant to be entertaining and to stir up drama and get people talking. So they're going to do that.

It doesn't mean that these people that are doing this hate me. It just means it's a business. So it doesn't bother me. I'm like, whatever, I'm happy with my life. But, I mean, I guess in a silver lining, a lot of people came to my defense online. So I think it was kind of nice just to see people say, like, you know, just leave him alone. Like, he just went through it and it just kind of made me feel, it kind of put a smile on my face. I was like, wow, like there are people out there that are in your corner.

So that was cool to see. What do we have to look forward to from you? What's coming up? Yeah, I mean, for me, I'm just, again, chasing my passions and specifically. Specifically, I'm doing the virtual online training, so I've been accepting clients now. People can reach out to me on Instagram, clicking the link in my bio. I'm also writing a book right now over mental health and my journey. It's going to be tailored to high school and college age kids, really to anybody that really

just wants to, you know, build to read the book and gather some insight, maybe some things that I wish that I would have to know when I was that age. Because, again, I think it's important that we openly talk about mental health. we just stigmatize a lot of these conversations that men are afraid to talk about that men and women are that people just don't want to discuss whether it's going to therapy because, you know, they feel that if you go to therapy, you have a problem. It's not the case. Susie and I are we're in couple's therapy right now. Like, we're just in it because we feel like it's good to get ahead of things before they actually surface. So that's amazing. Wow.

Yeah, therapy has done so much for us. So I think, and therapy is actually something that's, it's really cool as we can see by social trends or just like the, I think that's becoming to stigmatized greatly. People don't view it like they used to 10, 15 years ago as you go to therapy when you have a problem, and you are a problem. I think we have a more healthy relationship

and viewpoint of therapy. But there's still other conversations. Toxic masculinity, you know, men just talking about their emotions. And then just more so spreading this story of you're not alone, that we all go through these struggles, but through a bit of resiliency

and being able to build self-confidence, we can tackle a lot of this. adversity that we face internally and really change our own narrative. So that's kind of the hope with the book that I'm pushing out is to be able to provide my story as a story of resiliency and a story of where through being able to rewrite my narrative that I've been able to have a better grasp on my mental health. And just by sharing my story that's impacted others. And I hope that that'll inspire others to share their story as well. That's amazing, Clean. I can't wait to read it. Be sure to send me a copy. Absolutely. I'll definitely do that. Thank you, Clay and thank you

chatting with me. And good luck to you and Susie and Arizona and the whole thing. Absolutely. Thank you so much. So great talking to you. You too. We'll talk again sometime, I'm sure. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of Not Skinny but Not Fat. Follow me on Instagram at Not Skinny but Not Fat. Subscribe to the podcast. We don't miss any episodes. Rate the podcast that you love so much on Apple Podcast and write a little review. If you tell me you did, I'll give you a big virtual smoocharoo. Thank you guys so much for listening and I'll see you next Tuesday.