Not Skinny But Not Fat - GETTING CURIOUS WITH JVN

Episode Date: November 14, 2023

Jonathan Van Ness (pronouns: he/she/they) is an icon. From Queer Eye to fabulous hairstyling and award winning books, JVN does it all. Our conversation goes from how to groom your butthole properly for anal, to their difficult upbringing and finally to the intense podcast interview on Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard. This episode is a riot, enjoyment guaranteed!!!Produced by Dear MediaThis episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct, or indirect financial interest in products, or services referred to in this episode.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Hey, I'm Molly Sims. And I'm Emma Shogormley. We are two best friends with one common obsession. Beauty. And by that, we mean everything that makes you look and feel beautiful. We've tried it all and we've got your back. We'll be calling on all our favorite health experts, industry insiders, and friends to answer all your beauty questions.

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JVN is here. This is like a really big deal, everybody. Hi. Hi. You podcast ho. Yes. You feel like you're a podcast ho lately?

Lately. Yeah. Well, like you're a podcast ho. podcast pioneer. Yeah, I do actually feel like a podcast ho now that you say it. I feel like a podcast ho all the time. I just feel like I've been turned inside out all over everywhere. Just everyone sees everything, you know, for all these years.

For all these years. Yes. I have like the podcast equivalent of like the most gigantic rosebud that's ever existed. Really? Do you know what that is? No, I don't. That's why I was transiting. It's when someone engages in so much anal sex that they get this like,

huge prolapsed asshole. Yeah. It's called a rosebud and you just get this like huge red thing that like falls out of your butt. That's what it's like the medical term for it? No. Okay. I think that's like what they.

It's like it's called a rosebud, girl. I haven't even ever heard. So it looks ugly. It's like my, honestly for, I don't want to like body shame anyone because like it's But if you see somebody with a rosebud, you're not. No, it's like some people, it's like a sign of beauty. In some cultures, it's a sign of beauty. For me, it's like kind of.

of my biggest fears like if you well now you're married but yeah like i don't ever want to look down there and be like what the hell but if you would you were with this hot guy they bend over rosebud asshole i'm thinking you got to appreciate the culture like you lean in yes but aren't you scared to like hurt it more or rosebud it more they seem to be pretty like resilient you know if you if you're able to get there at the first place like you could they can they can deal with that yeah did you ever have a rose bed no mine's always always always like being able to just be like mine's always been like internal it's probably one internally so you have a good butthole it's like intact did you bleach it ever no but i do gently exfoliate the

outside loosely like which is like loose i never put exfoliant in my hole but i do do like loose actually explain this in my stand-up show fun and slutty because i do at the end i do a live tutorial on how to prep for anal but only after i do a crowd survey of like who's into anal and then who's curious how anal but doesn't know how to get ready and then you know it's usually not that many people people are a little nervous about anal yeah oh my god i can't believe i'm going to tell this story do you want to know a story about me yeah okay oh my god this is i have a disgusting story to tell you later too okay okay but it's not about me i can't believe i've never said this out out thank god my husband doesn't listen my podcast i i put out when i was younger like i literally

from 12 i was like down to make out and hook up and yeah yeah you couldn't help i loved it oh my was like, fill me up. And I was a woman. I was really a woman at like 11. I don't know. I looked like this. That's how it works. Oh my God. I'm kidding. You guys. I wasn't, no, I lost my virginity at 18, but wait for it. I was like 17 or 16, maybe 17. And I had this guy that I knew my, like my whole kind of teenagehood. It was really hot surfer dude. Like long blonde hair. I loved it. Like in the movies, I was like, I'm going to lose my virginity. It's happening. I did the whole, I was literally in a movie. I ordered pasta. but put it in plates as if I made the pasta.

I was literally in the wrong time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Then I'm like, I got my period. So what did I do, JVN? What? What did I do?

You just fuck it. Just do it anyway. No. Oh. I did what we were just talking about. Oh, you did anal. I did. Good for you.

You said, you know what? You said resourceful queen. I said, can't do in that hole right now. I'll do that whole. Yes. And he was probably so accommodating. And my friends made so much fun. Like, it was like the funniest story.

Was he just like, no problem. No, he, I think, suggested it probably. Oh, good for him. Yeah. You both were responsible. But I was down. Of course. I feel like, I feel like the longer you don't do it is probably the longer you'll

wait. Exactly. Right. That took me so long for that to be like, oh yeah, because I'm like, duh. Yeah. That's not so natural. But for you, that's interesting. It's double interest because you had another choice.

Right. Do you still win with that? I can't wait a couple days. I was like, okay. Not bad than this. And my friends made fun. because of that where you said like you lost that virginity for good for you i lean your friends don't sound like that adventure no they weren't they weren't they weren't fun okay i haven't done it i'm not

into it normally though do you want to hear a crazy story but you exfoliate wait do you exfoliate oh with a face exfoliator or a body no i usually do like i've actually honestly i've used the cora tumouric exfoliant by a miranda cur i've used that and i've also used i could see miranda No, that's a face one, but then I've used the herbivore coconut body scrub on. And so what I like to do is I like to hit a little yogi squat in the shower. I do a little molossana. I drop down and I just do gentle buffing circles, like all on my whole crack. And I will say between that and getting a bidet. Do you have a, you have a day in one of your bathroom? Yeah. Between that. And so basically, I'm essentially showering every time I shit. You know, I'm showering off my butthole every time essentially. I mean, yeah. Does Mark do it too? Yeah. But you know, it. Since he's out of the room right now, really, I said shit, but typically I say blink with him. You know, I like to just maintain a little, like, I think of blink. Shut up. Wait, how long are you together?

We're yours. And you say blink? Yeah, I just like, I just, I want to maintain like this, like, mystery of my whole. It's like Legends of the Hidden Temple. No. What does he say? He doesn't bought him, though, either. So it doesn't really like, I didn't matter for him.

Yeah. And if he does, it's kind of like annual. It's kind of like anniversaries and birth asian. I'm saying it's like not like the most often thing. It's a celebratory. Yeah. Because you want that. Like, he does it for you.

It's like every once I was like, you just kind of want to make sure you kick the tires, make sure everything's pop in. Oh, so you really, first of all, that's kind of you to really maintain the area. Yeah, I do. But I learned that because I was like, oh, I was like my butt. Like, it's like not giving me like the same even color that I want it to. How do you know? Because I just, I bend over and you put your cheeks apart.

No, stop. You do that often? You don't look at your bubble. No, I don't. Oh, yeah, at least three times a week. No. Oh, yeah, I bend over. Yeah.

I bend over in front of a full length mirror. Yeah. I pull it apart. And then I, yeah, I'm, it's like part of my body inspection, girl. You got to like look. Do you wax there? Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I have a, she's, she's a good barrier. Now, I have a, I have a vaginal story for you already. Oh, okay. I love it. I love that we're just like never going to get to anything. No, we're never. I have like all this intense stuff I'm talking about.

Okay, you're ready? So much better. Yeah. Okay, so I had this person that came to the salon and they were a client at the salon, you know, they shall remain nameless. They meet this really hot guy and they really want to fuck because he's only going to be in town for the weekend. So, but then she realizes that she has a yeast infection.

So then she reads online that if she puts Greek yogurt up her vagina, that is going to cure the yeast infection. Uh-huh. So she does. And then she's like, oh my God, it feels so much better. I'm like so relieved. This is like everything. I'm like totally ready to rumble.

Then she picks this guy up from the airport. They start having sex. They're doing the thing at the apartment. And then all of a sudden in mid-stroke, he just stops and like all the blood drains from his face. And he is like, he's just turned like moss, like this like light greenish color. Like he's like the fucking Greek yogurt had curdled like a pocket of it had like curdled. She didn't get it all out. And so he pulls out and there's like this curdled fucking Greek yogurt like cottage cheese

Greek yogurt and he and like all over the place and so and they're both dry heaving like she's just like oh my god I can explain like it was Greek yogurt I had like yeah and he's like Jesus and like how do you come back from that like the first day of like a weekend day you know what I'm saying yeah you guys free people has been part of my life since high school I remember I used to go to department stores and try to find discounted free people stuff and feel so cool and I snacked something boho chic and freaking fabulous and free people is still around it is time it is amazing and they actually have FP movement now. FP movement has a lot of active wear and it's all about like just like loungy active, sporty, which like I know that I'm not

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Okay, you guys. So if you haven't yet, download Rackaton. Start using Racketon when you shop. R-A-K-U-T-E-N. Racketon. Get on it. That story's always stuck out to me in my head, which brings me to one of my first time effing stories, just inspired by yours. The first time I ever hooked up with a guy, I had only seen

straight porn. And I didn't... Why? Well, because it was the fucking 90s. Okay. I was like the 90s. I didn't know how to find porn. I only... I found it in the ceiling. It was in my older brother's room. Oh, so you watch what you had. It was a tape. Oh, it was a tape.

It wasn't like cornhub. It was called carnal cravings. What was it called? Carnal cravings. It was crazy. It was like these 70s people with like big perms and this like lady had this huge bush with the mini leather skirt. She was a bartender and she was like it was like, it was a great.

You really remember it? I remember. I was like, well, yeah, I was scarred. It was like, but so I didn't know what to do and I was just like, oh my God, when is this ever going to be over? Because I was just like after about even even then like 20, 30 minutes. Were you excited? Did it arouse you?

No, not the porn. I mean, like, fast forward through the porn, like, when I'm actually having sex for the first time. Oh, okay, okay. But after 20 or 30 minutes, any time, I'm just, I'm always like, after 30 minutes, I'm just like, I want to be done. Like, I just, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, this has just been so much, you know? So anyway, I, but this guy is like, I didn't know how to make him come. I was like, how do you, this is fucking teak forever. So then I just was like, I looked at my tits and I was just like.

And then he made this crazy base. You, he was. I tried to titty fuck the guy. Yeah. But I didn't have titties because I was like, you know, I was like a 17 year old boy, like guy. Did it turn him on? No. He was like, what do you do? He was like, it wasn't, he wasn't like gross older, but he was like he was more experienced than me. And so he was just like very taken off guard. I also think in retrospect, I think I was like just getting my driver's license or maybe just before that. So I think I was like 50. I was like a sophomore. He was like a senior. You know, and I just want, can I ask you one more question about anal? Yes. because I had a story in the town I grew up in that a girl did a nail with a guy and shit on his penis

he told everybody it was like really so does that not happen I mean poor girl though he told everybody yeah of course it happened and like you're saying you call it binky or blinky or whatever just blink so does that is that a common thing

well I've been really lucky in my marriage and that I you know have not but no yeah it could totally happen it could happen it's only it's only really ever happened to us this one time and I was like fucking run me over with a car I could just die like it's not some guys are just like so and like they are very understanding like they don't shame like and Markey's definitely not a shamer but for me personally like if it's I'm just

like oh I just can't fucking believe it you know what I mean although you know it's interesting yeah this one time I was already and then I hooked up with this guy but he wouldn't kiss me on the mouth which I was just like this is so crazy like I just I'm not someone who can like be fucked and not kiss like I can't do that. and so then all of a sudden and I was just like kind of laying there I was like oh my god I feel like awful I feel like I'm being used as like gross

I hate it but I also didn't say just like stop I was just like maybe he'll just be done soon and then all of a sudden he just stopped and he was like oh my god it's not clean and I was like you're kidding and because like I just thought I was like I thought I was so ready but my body literally had been like storing this like balloon of water from the cleanse

like I thought I'd evacuate everything but there was just like one little pocket of water up there and he poked my water balloon and I just kind of I did. I just kind of like, it was like a short water. I just like, it was like short water because I just, I, there was like still some up there from the cleanse.

But it was so nice. He was like this really muscular guy. And I just, and then I was like, oh, so he was nice about it. Oh, no. He was like, it's not clean. I was like, sorry, girl, better leave. Bye. Can wash off when you get home.

Not kissing me on the mouth. Get the fuck out, you know. I did let him go to the bathroom really quick though. But yeah. But I just, I loved it like my, my body like revolted because I didn't like the situation. You know what? I couldn't say no. So my body was just, like, said it for me.

Yeah, like, get out. And no, like, my whole is like, get out right now. It's the end of you and me. I love, I love. Let's go back before all the anal. Yes, before all the anal. For people, because I want people to get to know you. Yeah.

Like, you're more than just. More than just anal fucking sex, you guys. Not that much more, but, like, a little bit. Just a tiny bit more. Yeah. So you grew up in Illinois. Yeah. Was it conservative?

Yes. Oh, it was. Like, so what was that like for you? So much fun. But now you're living in Texas. That's what I'm kind of... Also so much fun. Yeah, it's so much fun.

Are you living in Texas? I think it's trauma repetition. Is it on purpose to help those areas? So really, Texas was, I was minding my own business in March of 2020. And on March 6th, we were moving to Austin to go to shoot Queer Eye, season 5. And we did four days of the first episode before, like, the world shut down. Wow. Right.

And so at the time, you know, it was kind of like, are you going to be off for one month, three month, nine months, a year? Like, no one knew how long. And I have four cats at the time. I have five now. Mark and I just started dating. You're a cat lady. I'm a cat lady.

But it's kind of a bitch to, like, drive four cats across the country. And they don't really, like, deal with that that well. And I definitely wasn't, like, flying with four cats, you know? Because I don't know people notice it. Like, you literally have to have, like, one person per pet. Like, so if I want to fly, like all five. I got to bring like, you know, three of my friends with my husband to get all my cats. Yeah. And only like two can be on a plane at a time or like three. So like out of the whole

airplane. Yeah. So it's like a big thing to like if you have multiple cats and you're not like, you know, that having that private plane money. Can't cats like survive on their own like in the house? No, that's actually kind of like another misconception too. Like like they really do need like consistency. They need socialization. Like like like watch my like you can have my house if you like what. I'm like people don't care who. Yeah. But I didn't. I mean, I was moving to Austin for three months because the shoots are three to four months. So I was moving from March to May at least. So that's not a little amount of time. So you drove with your cats. Yeah. So like rent a car. I get to Austin. I get there. World shuts down four days later.

And so I'm like, well, I could go back to my apartment in New York. But at the very beginning of the pandemic, everyone was like, Manhattan's running out of food. There's like no food. Like so I was kind of like. No tele favor. I was like, damn, maybe I'll just get like an Airbnb down here like on a lake and just like vibe this nice weather. So I did that. So I was like, maybe we'll be back in production in like three months. I don't know, like, so I Airbnb beat a house. And then after a couple of weeks, I was like, wow, my nervous system. Like, because the state legislature has like, it was never like a fucking, you know, oasis for queer people.

But Austin was a little, like, is more liberal. And I did feel like good there. And I didn't feel, you know, in 2020, there was like not that many anti-queer laws. And then 2021, they, you know, tried a couple. And then 2022, they tried a couple more. And then this year, like this legislative session, they did like, 500 like or not's in the US but in Texas there actually

maybe that was like there was hundreds I mean an unbelievable amount of times I this year I started feeling really targeted in Texas but when I first came it didn't I mean it wasn't amazing but I felt like I can kind of targeted like personally like if you go out I feel a little less safe really

mm hmm huh feel a little less welcome but that's you know it's hard to feel welcome as a non-binary trans person when there is you know there's drag I mean I'm a comedian like I wear the clothes that I wear when I perform, there is a law that was struck down, but they passed a law that was going to ban drag performances. Like, you know, if it could be any place in, like, where a minor could potentially see.

So, like, I would be a drag performance because I'd be wearing a dress. So that means, like, I couldn't, you know, go read my children's book. Yeah. Like, I couldn't, like, in my stand-up comedy show, like, isn't for kids anyway, but, like, I couldn't. Right. You ask, who does. But it's like, I couldn't read my book.

Like, I couldn't, like, read peanut goes for the gold. I couldn't like do things that are totally fine and above board all ages. But that didn't pass. Well, got struck down by a federal judge. But the drag bans, we've had more luck getting those bans. But a lot of the trans bans and gender affirming care bans have been allowed to go into effect in district court. So I think we're really likely to see that head to the Supreme Court next year because we've had some district court of appeals rule against the bans being able to go in place. But then other ones have let them go into effect.

So anytime like district courts have like competing rulings, like that usually fast tracks it to the Supreme. Court. So we're going to be seeing this same Supreme Court that overruled Roe v. Wade. They're going to be ruling on gender affirming care for minors. And it's going to be a thing. When is that going to happen? I'm guessing next year. I mean, they haven't officially picked it up yet, but just the fact that, like, I think like the First Circuit and the Sixth and the Eighth Circuit, I could be miss speaking here, but certain circuits have ruled competing ruling. So some have said, yeah, these gender affirming care bans can go into effect. And other ones have said they can't because they're unconstitutional.

And so now that question of whether or not these, you know, gender affirming care bans are constitutional or not are going to be going to the Supreme Court. And you've been doing so much activism for this. Like, did young Jonathan ever see, do you ever see yourself being in this place? Like, did you? Well, like, and then to that question of, like, we know what was like growing up. I mean, I've always been really passionate about queer rights and really aware of queer rights.

I mean, I grew up in the HIV-AIDS crisis. I grew up in like the age of like Doma, which was like, you know, the defense of marriage act that was passed in the Clinton era. So I mean, the hot topic of conversation in my rural space was like, you know, like I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. Like, no, I don't think that. I mean, people were just really full face. Like, yeah, no, you shouldn't be able to have the same rights as me. Like, maybe we should call it civil unions and you get the tax breaks and you get the, you can go into the hospital room. But no, like it can't be like. And I mean, I think we're going. going to see that kind of, we're going to see that play out, too, because even in the Robb's decision, Clarence Thomas said we should revisit marriage equality and even sodomy laws and return those to states' rights as well. So, Justice Thomas has already, you know, floated that idea. But I've always been someone who has been really passionate about current events, really

passionate about queer rights, really passionate about equality, women's rights, and just passionate generally about, like, the world around me. So I was like that as a kid. You were. Yes. And when did you come out as a kid? I never really, like, had to hardcore come out. Really? I mean, I think I probably started answering yes to the question of when kids called me gay in, like, seventh or eighth grade. What you just said yes? Yeah, eventually.

Really? I think there was, like, a brief moment in, like, the Baywatch era where I was like, I'm by, like, Pamela Anderson's hot. I was like, a little less bad or something. But, no, I mean, kids were calling me faggot really consistently by the time I was, like, in second, third, fourth. yeah not kids in my grade necessarily like older kids in school would be like that kid's gay that kid like from really because i was like was it even before you knew it i don't know i mean i don't think any kids like necessarily exactly have the words but like i totally had crushes on like you know kids in my grade and like like there was this one boy tyler

who i'd always like run up and like push him down when we were like you know we were in like second grade and like i had these like sweatshirts and i was always like making them off the shoulder sweatshirts and like i could like within spice girls i was like go power like I loved so when you're saying you never had to really come out I was super queer did your family ask you about it too I think my mom in like six or seventh grade was like you know honey like are you like because the you know the kids I call it you know and she's like it's totally fine if you are like I'll love no matter what but like no so she was like sweet about it and I was like no and you know and then also I remember like around that time my mom found this like poster board that

was under my bed where I had had like all these like shirtless like it was called like my beauty insmo board and like half of it was like black and white and like beautiful like glam like beauty ads from vogue but like of like fully clothed women but like with like fierce ass hair and makeup and then the other ones were just like all shirtless guys like underwear model ads like who was on your wall like you have posters on your wall it was like all hanson I was like obsessed with hanson yeah I was like Hanson and Michelle Kwan yeah I'm dying so really gay you know just like very weird who had a hanson where you went to okay it's like really controversial, but I loved, like, that Isaac.

Wait, there's the, the young one, I always felt like I loved the oldest. Don't I look like the young one? Zach, you do kind of look like Zach now that I think about it. Like if I, yeah, he had a side part and some drums. Wait, Isaac is the middle one? No, Isaac was the oldest. The old one. Taylor, I guess he is the oldest, then Taylor's the middle.

So you had Hansen on your walls. I did. I was really into them. Oh my God. But especially Isaac. I love someone with like a unconventional face. So I do want to know how it works because you're saying you didn't have to come out. as a guy to your family, but did you, is there a second coming out with being non-binary where

you have to kind of have that conversation? Yeah. I mean, by the time I like had language for my non-binary identity, I was already like, you know, like 30 or like 31. So, and I'd already like kind of established my own shit by then. Right. So that wasn't so much of like, and I write a lot about that of my gender expression journey and my second book, love that story. Because like I was always very fluid and like wanting to wear evening gowns and really like I said like cutting like you know off the shoulder sweatshirts and letting to wear tights and like yeah but like I always had like a very like much more feminine much more you know fluid or like woman associated like inclination towards dress that was always like really heavily discouraged you know from like adults

and like you know family and then you know later as I kind of realized more about my sexuality that I was like attracted to men, it's like even in that time, you know, there's only like three guys on gay.com or like, you know, the AOL chat rooms that were in like a 300 mile radius that you could somehow potentially like hook up with. Yeah. But I mean, femininity has never really been something especially then that was super celebrated within the gay community. So if you were going to express your femininity, like that was like really lowering the chances that you had of like getting dick. And I really, you know, getting dick. And when you're living in a rural space as a full time job, you've got to be really committed. And so I really kind of.

You have to change? Yeah, and even all my 20s, like, I had wigs, I had boots, I had heels, I had tight, such it was always hidden in a closet. Like, I never wanted a guy to, like, see that when I was like, yeah. So, and then I think once I really was in the throes of sexual compulsivity and really dealing with that, I was like, I realized I, like, didn't want to sacrifice myself anymore for sexual validation that was, like, so fleeting. And, like, I would say, like, you know, once I sucked enough dick that there was, like, a

comma and the number, I was like, you know, I don't really want to sacrifice myself anymore for this, like, hollow ass, like, thing that I just don't even feel good. And it's like, I've just seen every dick there is to see over the age of 20. I don't care. Like, these guys are, I don't, and I just want someone to see like me fully as opposed to like just this, you know, person that's like trying to get validated. So then more in like my late 20s, like mid to late 20s, as I started to like heal more than I think I came more fully into my gender expression. And then as I started to like make other gender queer and non-binary and gender non-conforming friends and started like hearing them talk about it and just my world opened up so much when

queer I happened and so that's I met so many other people in my community where I was like oh my God that's how I felt my whole life and I don't have to hide this anymore not even I had to hide but I already knew I didn't have to hide it like in my like you know mid 20s and I was more myself as I healed more but once I made more like made gender queer friends and made like non-binary friends that's when I learned the language and was like oh my God that's me too like that's how I've always felt. But that wasn't until, like, after Queer Eye. I mean, you reference these points in your life, but you did have a pretty complicated, you know, life growing up and college and all of that. How are you this, like, ray of sunshine that we all know you to be?

I'm not really. If you read my comments, you'll see, I can be a cunt. Like, I, you know, tell people all just, you know, type back nothing but middle fingers, like, sure, Jan, like, you know, get fucked. Like, the comments can get reported sometimes. you know, because it's giving, like, violating community guidelines. Yeah. So I'm not always a ray of sunshine. You try to be. And I, well, no, not even.

I think in both my books, that's one thing that I really like about writing and, like, whether it's writing or stand-up comedy or even podcasting, like, I can be a fuller version of myself. And on queer, and this is something I write a lot about, like, I'm so grateful to queer eye and I love queer eye and, like, who you see on queer eye is who I am, but it's not all of who I am. You feel like it's more one-dimensional. No, it's not even one-dimensional because I think, you know, I'm really caring on there. I think that I can be, you know, I feel like I'm giving you levels, but you can't know the fullness of anyone from, you know, 45 minutes of a TV show. I mean, we shoot like five days a week for like six, seven, eight hours a day.

So there's a lot of hours that you're on camera that gets edited down to 45 minutes. So it's kind of giving you like the highlight reel of like the best of yourself. So that's like why, you know, I am more open about mess ups, my past, you know, things that I've learned. And I try to be more upfront about the fullness of who I am. Because I don't want people to be surprised when they realize that I'm, like, not always such a beacon of light. And I do struggle. And I think that, I think that positivity and even, like, you know, how you show up in the world, it's like, even this is, I think this is true of, like, masculinity and femininity. Like, you think that masculinity is, like, more strong and that femininity is more like, you know, a quiet strength or something.

Most men could never wear what I'm wearing. I'm wearing heels today. I'm wearing this dress. could never walk down the street, like the bravery that it takes to express my femininity, like the courage, the strength, the resilience,

like most men could never, but that's considered feminine. But I think I see so much masculine traits that are in femininity. Yeah. You know, so similarly. Oh my God, now that you're saying that,

so many masculine traits in femininity. Yes. Yeah. Like, I think positivity can also be like the courage to go through. through negativity. It can be the courage to be honest. It can be the courage. Like, positivity doesn't have to be saccharine and like ray of light. You know, it can, I think positivity

can be gritty. And I think it can be like sometimes dark. And I think that, and that's another kind of theme that I just write a lot about is that, like, some of your greatest joys can live next to some of your greatest failures and, or your biggest sorrows. And the sorrow and the depression and the anguish like doesn't have to invalidate your joy like there everything is allowed to kind of like coexist together yeah i know this is going to be some shocking information you guys but thanksgiving is around the freaking corner this is absolutely wild where did june go like hello june it's me okay i don't know what's happening i just am shocked you guys so i'm gonna just breeze past this but thanksgiving is coming and you're going to need a bunch of stuff

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issues all these things food sex drugs i'm a survivor of sexual abuse right i'm a former sex worker i've been through some what a life yeah do you feel like all this brought me to where i am today so like are there things that you're still struggling with accepting in your past no i feel like i'm at a pretty good place with like my story and like my process and my trauma I feel like more what I kind of struggle with now is like, or worry about more now is just like other young people that are going through things similar to what I did. And I just for as much progress as we think we've made, like, you know, seeing such this swell of like anti-trans vitriol and anti-queer vitriol and, you know, like growing up people, I was like, it's going to get better. Like, and while I think things have gotten better, everything gives pendulum. And it's like we've been on this like, I feel like we've been on this little back swing.

and that stresses me out for people. But no, I feel personally like, I'm, I feel like, and I also have like a really good therapist and really good marriage therapist and, you know, good husband and good support systems. I'm pretty lucky. How did you and Mark meet? On Instagram. Stop.

Who slid into whose? Mark slid into my DMs, but he asked about a sweater. Your merch or something? No, he was just like, oh, that's a cute jumper, like, who made that? And I was like, I sent him back a picture of my hole. No, you didn't No, I did it It was like spread eagle

No, how did you know that he How did you know that that's where he was going? Maybe he wanted the sweater I could just tell. No, stop Yeah, I could tell he wanted it You just spread eagle No, okay

I was like, it's like from this This store or whatever I'll believe it No, I didn't think of it Okay, okay So you answered You said where it was from Yeah

And that's how you started talking That's so cute Yeah, then we started chatting And then what year was this? 2019 Okay And then we had like one little date And then I

Did he know you from from your work? Okay. Yeah. But he, I was like, he's hot. I mean, yeah. So I was like, ah. So we had like one little date in New York and then.

Were you living in the same place at that time? No, he was in New York visiting, like for his work. And I lived in New York at the time. So we had a date. And then he went back to London. And then I was going to England for my comedy tour and for my book tour. And so then I went to the UK for like two and a half weeks that October. And like when I was on my way, I was like, oh, hey, I'm a.

to be in town if you want to hang out. And then we hung out like the first night that I got there. And then that was the time when it was like, then we hung out the next night. And then we hung out the next night. And we ended up hanging out like every night of that I was like in London that time. And like that's really when we started dating. That's so cute. So it's been like four years. And then you got married in 20, 21? 2020. Yeah. In June of 2020. So you both knew was it? Yeah. Slash immigration. But yes. Was there a proposal? Yeah. With this immigration. attorney and we were like wait how do we like I was like how do we like get him to be able to stay and not violate like the law and she was like you have to get married and I was like

damn that's so intense and so did you ever think you would get married like I hope so yeah and so it started off we were both like how tray not romantic yeah and then but then we kind of like slept on it and then we were both kind of it was really cute we were like actually is kind of romantic like no but honestly it's more romantic if you think about it yeah and then we were like and we were just like it is fast but like if we were both just like if it if we want to take this relationship seriously and we went to this it was that because like I just am not the type of person who can like have you go to London and like I'll say here and like just not know when I'm going to get the D next like I can't just like get like an indefinite discontinuation of my access to D

yeah so I was like I just can't do that yeah and so then so then yes So we got married in June. And obviously, I was kind of scared because I was like, I don't want to, like, tell people yet. And I just was like, I don't want to hear people's fucking mouths. Yeah. And did you wait until the anniversary to tell people? No, then I buried it in a camera roll dump on, like, New Year's Eve of 2021. I was like, by the way, I also got married.

Because, like, Sunday she's like wanted to just say it. And then just, because it had been my life for the last, like, so I knew and I felt good about it. My world knew. And then I was like, okay, I think I feel ready now. I always kind of try to do that. Like, I like, I just like kind of like. sneak it in there. It's a little boop. I call it. I'm like, boop. Yeah. And the

fist slide. Yeah. Yeah. It's also like, it really was such a weird time. And I think this is like a good example of like with social media. Like there's a lot more going on than what people talk about. Sometimes when I see my friends who aren't public figures just being messy as shit and saying every little fucking thing that's going on in their life or even their big trauma. I'm like, I'm jealous. I miss being able to be like

You have to overthink it. You feel like now? No, I just cannot share. Really? Yeah. Like I had like a really significant. But you share so much. I know, but I had like a really significant death in my family like this year and like wasn't going to talk about that. Like it was really unexpected. It was really devastating. Like I'm not going to talk about it. And people, but in that time, you know, we got married. Then the day that we got married, my mom ended up in a really intense health situation. She's fine now. But it was, she actually ended up like, I've face timed her the night of our wedding to

because, like, none of our family could come because of the travel ban. So Mark's family couldn't get here from the United Kingdom. And then it felt weird to have even just like my mom be there if like his mom couldn't be there. So it was just like me and Mark and a judge and my old assistant who also is a photographer. So he just came to take some pictures of us like for our day. Did you do it at like City Hall? No, we did in our backyard. And then it was like COVID.

And then our moms and dads and step parents like joined on Zoom. Then that night I facetined my mom. And she had mentioned that day. She was like, oh, I was up all night. It didn't feel very good. And then I facetimed her at like 6 o'clock that night to be like, oh my God. like we're married and I'm fine and she answered from a hospital bed with like when I go in this way when I go in that way and she was like why are you crying like no one's telling you I'm here until tomorrow and I was like bitch you just told me right now you're like in a hospital what the hell and it's like six hours after we were married it's like I'm watching my mom like and like she's and you couldn't even go probably no it was like no one was allowed to go in the hotel or in the hotel in the hospital my brother was actually there and he was like trying to get in through emergency exits and like there was like police and so he was like but you can't go in it was like a thing. And so, and again, I'm not, I was going to talk about my mom's health shit on

online. And I'm not going to talk about the loss of a family member online. Why do you feel like you can't talk about those things? Or you just want to keep them private? Well, my mom's health stuff is my mom's health stuff. Right. Right. So like, you know, where do you draw the line? Where do you draw the boundaries? People have so much shit to say and people are just like absolutely cruel. Like my cat fell out of a window and died in like 2019. It was like the saddest thing that's ever happened to me. And I accidentally like in like just really intense grief. like a few people asked me for selfies like the day that it happened when I was like going to work and then I ended up like turning into that crazy meme and I was like get away and then I was

like oh I'm going to have to make an Instagram post that's basically just like hey if you see me on the street and I'm acting fucking crazy like this is why because I was just like unhinged and I had to work and there was no time to grieve there was no time to take any work off like I just had to like I mean I like had to go do a shoot for queer I like an hour later oh my god like literally found like the front desk of this apartment building like found because I like couldn't find my cat the window was like this big it was like a two inch windows like they don't even open up and down they open like those like little pie wedges but I didn't know that like full grown cats are capable of like go through like the tiniest of holes they literally can

flit through it and so he got out on the sill couldn't get back in they like he wasn't there on like the security footage at like five in the morning and then at like 5.30 he was there I wake up I can't find him I'm like looking everywhere for my cat I go down to the front the front and I'm like because I was like the night before I'd like gotten Uber eats and so I was like when I got the food from the front door I like thought he like slipped out so like just gotten out of the front door. So I was all like, or I was like, oh my God, someone kidnapped my cat. Like when he got out into the hallway from Uber, so I was all like, bug, like bug, like walking

through the halls. And then I was like, let me go downstairs. And so then when I went down to the front desk and was like, has any like, I can't find my cat. Her face just like totally changed. And the second that her face made that face, like, I remembered that like the air conditioning and the building had stopped the night before. So like that's why I cracked the window because it was just like hot as shit.

Oh, so you immediately your mind went there. It was like a movie. I was like, oh my God, window open. like can't find my cat and I literally opened like every cupboard because like my brain just did not like I didn't even realize it was like a possibility. Did they take the cat aware? Did you see? They found him and then they put him, they had him like back in an office and I literally like just like collapsed to the floor and was just like sobbing on the ground. And then like the lady was like, oh my God, do you need help like back upstairs? And I was like, huh. And so then I went back

upstairs. When I went upstairs like all the windows or like all the cabinets were still open. And then I rushed over to the window and I could see these like marks on the window. And I just, it was the most trauma. And then that's just like 7.30 in the morning. And like my call time was like nine. And so, and like these people from GMA had just won this like thing to watch us film like a loft scene. You're saying you had to be on that day. And it was on the way like because we were like my apartment was like a couple blocks away from where that like house was.

So it was like on the way walking there that I was like crazy to like three different pedestrians. And I was like I'm going to have a fucking like glitter public like I'm going to fucking. fucking freak out. Like, it was just the worst day ever. And then, yeah. So,

but like, so, but when I shared that on Instagram, like, I don't name search myself on Twitter anymore because it's like the, like, and also I don't even like use Twitter, but I went through this phase where like I would look at it to see what people

were saying. And people would say the craziest shit about bug that. His name was bug the second. Yeah. And people would just be like, oh, don't say anything about JVN or he's going to murder a cat or like, they would like draw these pictures of like me and a cat falling out of a window or just like

these crazy hurtful things. or like back in like 2020 like when I endorsed Elizabeth Warren like these kids on Twitter were like re taking these pictures of me from this photo shoot and being like Ronald Reagan like laughing at me as I die a full blown AIDS like just these crazy me like really crazy so it's like when I have shared about my living with HIV or I have shared about really difficult things some people get something out of it like as far as like oh like whatever but then other people are just like fucking crazy and once you've seen something about that like senior like it's it's so hard and you never get used to that sort of cruelty like you just can't

you can't imagine that there's a person that could be well because to you you're to them you're not a person yeah you're like this caricature of yourself where they've seen one headline or they've seen one clip and like i fucking hate that person and block people for sure yeah you're a blocker but you know that's why i don't share about certain things so it's like if my mom is and again my mom is like fine or she's healthy now like she's sorted her stuff out which is like awesome but you know with like marriage as well like i just you're more protective because people and it's one thing when people say crazy things about you but it's another thing when people say crazy things about like someone that you love and so that's like you know it's like the death in my family like i you know

it's just you just get more like protective yeah that's why you don't really talk about your family that much right like your brother and sister anything like yeah you keep you keep that it feels like you've shared what you've shared which is a lot yeah of everything you've went through and then now you're you're picking picking and choosing more i always kind of was a picker and a chooser yeah yeah so if i asked you and you don't have to share do you want kids i think no you think no because we have five cats and three dogs oh i was going to ask you if you don't like dogs so you like dogs we love i love both five cats and three dogs how do you travel you have people watching yeah we have like three really trusted house sitters who we love that like all

of our animals that's important yeah what dogs our oldest is elton after elton john and then our middle girl is Rose and she's a Pyreneum Mountain Dog and Pit mix from Safe and Austin and she's Rose after Rose Nilead from Golden Girls and then our youngest is George after George Michael and he's like a Australian cattle dog like

pit collie Do they get along with the cats? Yeah, Georgie gets a little chasey and Rose gets a little chasy but all the cats love Elton and Elton loves all the cats. Wait so do you think you're going to say living in Austin then? Yeah, I mean it's we kind of made it our

home and now I do feel like, I feel like people would have said like if Georgia was going to elect like two Democrat senators and help deliver the White House for Democrats in like 2008 or four of you would have said like they were on like shrooms or asset or something. So I feel like I do feel like living in Texas at the beginning was like nervous system like it's nice for my nervous system. And it was also nice because like just people don't expect to see me there. So it was like less like getting accosted all the time. Not that I mind it. I do love like fans. But and just like meeting people. but your nervous system like can only take like so many times of some especially if you run late all the time which I do and then someone will like especially like living when I lived here like I am consistently late and then you don't want to like let someone down when they're like trying to tell you that like but then it's like girl I'm literally 20 minutes late to this like doctor's appointment or whatever the fuck and like I really got to go but I don't want to be a bitch but then I could see you New York though I love you you give you have a New York vibe because I lived here for like three years yeah but then but you can live here with all the cats. and the dogs. It would be a lot. It would be too much. It would be, and you would need, like, a really big house. Yeah.

And I just don't have, like, that Olson Row money Kardashian. Like, I'm not, like, I'm obviously, I'm doing good, but you see, like, big celebs that live here on, like, architectural digest. Their houses aren't that big if they live in New York City. Well, because it's like, you just, you can't. That shit's expensive as shit here. And also brownstones, they, like, go up, but they're not big. I'm obsessed with brown stones.

I know, me too, but that's what I'm telling myself. That's why I told you that. So I'm obsessed with the brownstones. Yeah, they're so cute. But I'm convincing myself that they're not. They're so, like, stupid and awful and terrible and, like, not even fucking useful. I literally did research. And it was like, they're just high up, do you understand?

There's, like, shoe boxes. There's, like, fucking big, tiny shoe boxes. The floors aren't wide. Shit. There's shit fucking floors. I wanted to talk to you about so many things. Talked about, like, anal and stuff for so long. About growing up, and then college, and then after college, you had to drop out.

And that's how you got into hair. But what I wanted to know was hair ever an inkling before? for in that moment. Always. I always knew I wanted to do hair. Really? My family was like, political science. Yeah, they're like, you need to go to college. And then if you go to college and you still want to do hair, then you could do hair. Yeah. And I was like, okay. You know what? That's stupid. I know it was. Well, my, like, I wanted to, you know, do things too. And my mom was like, you have to have a degree. But I won't do that to my kid. Well, because I mean, with a stupid degree. It's expensive, too. Those hose being our parents, they, when they had to go to

college. It was like 12.5. Like the most expensive, like the most expensive college, I bet was like it was like 10,000 or 12,000. Like you could get like a reasonable education. Yeah. Now it's like you're going to be in debt for fucking 20 or 30 years. Because you. Unless your parents have like an extra like what like one fitty or two. Like who has just like an extra one fitty just sitting around. And especially if you have like multiple brothers and sisters like. I know in college we used to bully our one friend whose parents paid for it straight out. We just be like, how does it feel? I mean, that's probably feels pretty good. I'd imagine that feels pretty awesome. How does it feel? You should try to fuck that friend, like have sex with that friend and become best friends with them because they sound rich. Just have their money. Yeah. Pay off my student loans. My God, and Lutz could pay off your student loans. Is it a girlfriend or a guy friend?

No, no, no, it was my roommate in college. We have tattoos of our dorm number. Like, too friendly. I can't do all of them. Or, like, more friendly. I wanted to, first of all, I was, you know, I wanted you to come on my podcast. I think the email that I got was even about your hairline or something. I was like, I want Jvian.

on the pod. And then, you know, you did that armchair expert pod. And I thought you were potted out. I was like, it's not going to happen. No. But you're not potted out. You can never pod me out. You can never pot you out. Can't pot out a pod house. So what can you just tell us about that? Like, are you and Dax good? Was the internet crazy divisive? Well, the internet is crazy divisive. Yeah. I think Dax and I are good. You know, I haven't spoken with him since. He did apologize. He did? On the podcast. at the end. Oh, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look. You didn't expect to go into that. It felt war zony. It, it just, it just felt, it felt fine. It felt, okay, actually didn't feel that good. And also, it was really edited. And also, I really asked for, like, I just wanted insight. Because, like, obviously that was a pretty intense conversation. Yeah.

I had a feeling that it would be edited. I just wished that I could have had a transcript or, like, had insight into what that edit would be. and, you know, I asked for that and wasn't given that. And so, you know, as someone who's been hosting a podcast for eight years, like, I do transcripts. I let my guests read the transcript. I give, I just, that part was kind of hard. There were some stuff that I said about a friend. People noticed that, though, just, you know.

No, no, I, I know. But I just, that part, I was just like, you know, but he's nice. Chris, I have a lot of respect for him. I will say this. I thought he was very brave to release it. I thought that he was. Right. He could have edited his, he could have. Oh, no.

Oh, to be clear, he was very edited. It was, that was not exactly what went down. Yeah. I would say it was worse. Like, you thought he might not release the episode. Yes. Or I thought he would, but, but, you know, I think that if the, if a more accurate edit existed, I think you would see why I cried.

Right. That's what people were talking about. And I heard it too. You know, when you broke down, yeah, the listeners didn't at that moment. I mean, it made sense that you would break down because of the whole conversation. And you said, I'm just exhausted. I'm exhausted from having to defend these kids and I'm, you know, exhausted. But you know what I was also.

And the amount of knowledge is huge. But I was really exhausted from the gaslighting. It was really gaslighty to say, you know, I, you know, I can agree with you on nine of ten things. But then I disagree on one thing and you're going to label me. Well, he wasn't agreeing with me on nine to ten. He was actually disagreeing with me on every single thing I said. You called him your dad. You were like, I feel like I'm talking to my dad.

Well, because I did. And he and every single thing I said he had pushed back. Every single thing. And I thought it was interesting for someone with the anthropology degree from whatever, like incline filters or whatever. It's like, I was absolutely right about my intersex statistics, which they went on to say in their fact check. And then really didn't spend any more time on that. And, you know, he dressed me down for that, said it was wrong. I also thought it's funny.

And this wasn't edited. This was true. I said, you know, transphobes would say that this is an overly blown number. And then he immediately said, well, I do think that's an overblown number. And he was completely wrong. And I just, you know, for that. And I also just think, I just think there's a world where, like, a second conversation would be nice privately where a more genuine apology and ownership for... Did you expect that to happen?

Like, were you like, I'm going to get an email? A little, yeah. Yeah. I thought that there would be a reach-out. Uh-huh. I feel like if I had someone into my home to have a podcast and, you know... Made them feel bad. Not made them feel bad.

I mean, he was a lot more animated. in real life. I mean, I almost got up and left twice. Wow. It was intense. Why didn't you? Like, what stopped you? Because I was sitting in fucking Dax Shepard's house. Like, you're not sitting in an office like this. You're like literally in someone's house. So you don't really feel like you're in your power. Did you know of him? Of course. I followed him on Instagram for 15,000 fucking years. I'm a huge fan of his wife. It was just like very unexpected. And disappointing. Yeah, well, not disappointing. It was just unexpected. I think what really made me emotional other than the gas lighting part is that like when I realized, like,

like how committed people are to like narratives that they've been exposed to whether or not they're like true like you get exposed to these headlines and these narratives around transphobia or about you know fairness in women's sports or you know kids transitioning blah blah blah and then people think they're so right but they can really be so wrong and I'm like wow this is someone who considers us their self an ally and this is how they're talking it's like our community has so much to overcome yeah and that's what kind of I was really stressed out about I was like oh my god like I was just washing over me like in that moment I'm like I just, but you know, I did say in the conversation, I love these conversations, but I just didn't

realize it was going to go, you know, so intense. But definitely not potted out. I think Dax is really sweet. I think he's very understand. I don't think he means harm. I will say that. He does not mean harm. And I thought it was brave to release the episode. And I'm glad that he allowed for so many more people to be exposed to that conversation. Did you feel supported by the internet or your community, like after it came out? Yeah. I'm just like, like so uncomfortable like I don't I'm not really comfortable in controversies like that yeah like it makes me feel really bad I know and you like to be like good with you you like yeah I don't like TikTok fucking takedowns of like you know like it it's like it's I'm I do I think we all kind of

care of people think I'm trying to get more comfortable with not but it's hurtful when people really think that you're like a nightmare shitty person and then like the Megan Kelly videos and all these like turfs tagging me in like 15000 fucking videos and you're just being like fucking transphobic assholes. Like, it opened me up to a lot of online abuse, too. Yeah. But I'm sure that, you know, there's a lot of people that were really coming for him as well. Yeah.

I do have to say, I did see both. But I'm sorry you had to go through that. And it is disappointing for me from Dax because I'm a fan as well and listen to his podcast and stuff. But I was also blown away, which I'm sure, so many people, like your knowledge about this stuff. It's like the way I'm edited in that episode, though, it's like it seems like I talk with no breath for 30 minutes when in reality. like, you know, we were having a conversation.

It's just that I was getting interrupted in the middle of every fucking thing I said so often that they had to like edit all my thoughts and a stream of consciousness because I really couldn't get three sentences out without it was. Well, I'm sorry that you went through that. But I do think I am also attracted to a lot of Republicans. I'm attracted to a lot of Republicans. I talk about that in my stand-up comedy is like purely physical. Like I'm not down with their policies.

But like if I saw them in an alley and they wanted me to go down on. them like I would do it. And so... What makes a Republican attractive? Same thing makes anyone like jawbones, pecks. Okay. You know, your vibe. Okay. So the physicality. Your principal vibes. Just like purely biologically. You always want to talk about biology. Let's talk about biology. Yeah. And my attraction is biological.

But no, but yeah, I mean, Dax, he's very charismatic and very engaging. Okay. I just want to do one thing before you go. Yeah. What do you want to say? Well, just for getting curious. So Javian hair, we love Javier. Because this is this for that. We love Javier. My hair is like an amazing day. No, so I want to say, because I said before we started, I have Javian here. Yes. Purple bottles.

I love it. We switched to blue. Oh my God. Excuse me. I have the old. Right. While it lasts. Okay.

But I also just want to say if you are like, oh my God, I just think Javian is so much fun and I want to listen to their podcast and you don't be like learning. We just did two new like additions to the getting curious universe. So like I do getting curious every Wednesday, which is like my little pride and joy. But now every other Monday I'm doing curious now, which is like the queer headlines. I was wondering why there were three different titles. So because now I've been doing getting curious. curious for eight years. We've done like over 350 episodes. I've interviewed like so many experts

across like all of academia. And so now Curious Now is about like it's kind of just giving a quick recap at the headlines. It's giving you like a couple little segments. And then I have a past guest on to talk about something that's going on now. So it's like a little update on them, but shorter. And so getting curious. Curious now. And then pretty curious. So it's pretty curious. So it's three podcasts. So actually four. I haven't gone to ask JVN yet. But pretty curious is it's just our beauty podcast. It's where I get to do like salon talk. We're talking about beautiful. beauty, like hairdressers, makeup artists, estheticians, injections, all things, beauty. Wow.

And then, as JVN is basically, like, talk sex with Sue Johansson, but it's behind a paywall and you got to, like, pay for it because I'm really slutty and I'll probably get canceled for it. It's basically like the beginning of this podcast, but even worse. Oh, my God. Love it. I would pay for that. So the tour, too, just you're touring until December.

I am. And then I'm going to add on some new dates next year, too. Oh, my God. So Fun and Sleddy will be coming to some more cities in January and February. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. I hope I didn't traumatize your listener. Oh, my God, you are a gem.

Thank you for having me. And thank you for coming on. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of Not Skinny but Not Fat. Follow me on Instagram at Not Skinny but Not Fat. Subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any episodes. Rate the podcast that you love so much on Apple Podcast and write a little review. If you tell me you did, I'll give you a big virtual smoocharoo. Thank you guys so much for listening.

And I'll see you next Tuesday. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.