Not Skinny But Not Fat - Jessi Draper Is in the Hot Seat

Episode Date: November 21, 2025

Jessi from the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is here and episode gets juicy, you guys. We get into all the drama with one of reality TV’s most talked-about stars and she did not hold back. She walks us through this seasons' huge storylines she didn’t even see coming, the affair heard ’round the internet, the emotional chaos in her marriage, and what it’s actually like running a hair empire while the whole world watches you implode.This episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct, or indirect financial interest in products, or services referred to in this episode.Watch Sidelined 2: Intercepted Free on Tubi this ThanksgivingVisit egglifefoods.com to find a retailer near you.Visit cowboycolostrum.com and use code NOTSKINNY for 20% off your first purchase.Keep it classic and cozy this fall cool—with long-lasting staples from Quince. Go to Quince.com/notskinny for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.Clear your schedule, you're going to want to binge every episode of the Certified Fresh limited series All Her Fault, streaming only on Peacock.Bring your traditions to life with independent art and design this holiday season. Use code NOTSKINNY for 20% off minted.comProduced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a dear media production. Welcome back to the not skinny but not fat podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Hirsch, and I still can't believe that I get to chat with some of my favorite stars on my very own podcast where you'll feel like you're just talking shit with your best friends in your living room. Welcome to a new episode of not skin, but not fat. I'm your host, Amanda. How are you doing?

I'm so excited for today's episode because the tea is hot. The tea is piping. I mean, secret lives of Mormon wives came back. And it came back better than ever. I think this was the best season to me. I mean, obviously the first season was like, whoa, the drama. It opened on a body cam. Like, so good, right?

But like third season, my jaw was dropped. every single episode. It was like I wasn't even on my phone, okay? I was just like watching in shock. I feel like every episode had a huge story. There was no like filler episode. You know what I mean? Like it was good. And I am so happy to have Jesse on today to talk about the scandal of everything that went down on season three that I wasn't expecting as you hear me tell her. I went into watching the screeners, not knowing what the season was going to be about, but I had already booked Jesse for the show because I haven't had her on

and I wanted to chat with her. Then I was like, damn, this whole season is about everything that went down with Jesse. If you guys don't know, Secret Lives of Mormon Wives on Hulu, amazing show, amazing reality TV, highly recommend. But, I mean, if you're listening,

you're fucking, you're watching. So it went from Demi and Marciano having an alleged affair to Jesse and Marciano having an alleged of what is everyone finding in Marciano like it really beats me like I'm sorry but like how is it always the guy that you don't understand like you're like wait what that's who we're all losing our panties over so Jesse confirms that you did have an affair with Marciano obviously no longer friends with Jimmy obviously drama up the wazoo her husband is filming you know all this Jordan while he is feeling emasculated and you know everything that's happened. Anyway, crazy season. So happy to have Jesse on to get to talk to her about where they're at now, how she's feeling about it all, why she did what she did. We get into details. We get into it. We get into it. So let's let's jump right into today's episode. So enjoy my episode with Jesse Nagatikora from Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I'm excited. There she is. You're the only one that hasn't been on almost.

Wait, really. Not really. Not really. You've had Macy. No, yeah. I've had only like three. Oh, okay. I'm like, you've had cool one. But I feel like you should have been on because we like follow each other for a while and like, you're so nice online. I've listened to you for years. Stop. So I'm like honored to be here. Like, I love you. I think you tagged us in a story when Taylor had the CMA drama happened in real life. Yeah. And I remember seeing something and I was like, oh my gosh, she knows who we are. Oh my God. Stop. And I was like, wait, she should have been on. She should have been on. So then we schedule this. before I watched the show. Oh, you've seen it now. Ooh, I'm scared.

No, because I'm just thinking, like, in my mind, I didn't know you're going to be the drama this season. And I was just like, yeah, like, let's have Jessie on. I haven't had her on. Like, we've been friends online. Yeah, no big deal. You know what I mean? Like, it'll be fun.

It'll be late. We'll talk about other people. You know what I mean? Then it's like, boom. Like, I didn't even go into it expecting that. I didn't either. It just happened. But it was, you were in the hot.

You guys love to say this. You guys love to say Mom Talk. Yep. And Hot Seat. And accountability. It's all. Those are the words. Those are the fucking words.

Hot Seat. Yes. This season. Yeah. Unfortunately. From the get. Yeah. From the minute.

Yeah. I mean like cliffhanger of two. Honestly. Cliffhanger of two. And then going straight into season three. Yeah. So when I press play on season three. Yeah.

Tell me your thoughts. John. I think I know this is your life. So take this in a like viewer watching a show versus like me and you. Do you know what I mean? No, totally. So watching a show best season. You know what I mean? Yeah. What a season. Yeah. It was crazy. It was crazy. So many different elements to like the craziness and layers and I mean, your situation. And then Demi and Whitney not being on and then coming on and then the Taylor stuff a little bit at the end. So there's a lot there. But you are a main fucking storyline this season. Yeah, I've been

kind of a side character for the first two seasons. And you always like, you're like, oh, you know, when are you going to be a main character? And it's like, not this way. That's not what I wanted. I did not think this was all going to come out. So it was definitely not intentional. But once it came out, it's like, I have to just own it. Like, I have to tell it. Okay. But let's like break forth wall as much as we can. Yeah. Layla confronts you. Yes. At this influencer event. By the way, I'm so into the shit, but, like, you came out of your car. You could have went into your car, but her camera was set up in her car. Because she knew what was about to happen.

Because she knew. And I didn't. Yeah. Oh, my God. Those kinds of moments. I was like, you guys all suck. Because it's like, that's when you know it's like. Legit.

Legit slash, it's still a reality show. So the camera has got to be set up. You know what I mean? But I was really blindsided. Like, that was genuinely I was finding out in that moment. It was like the worst time of my life. But how do you then, like, let's just talk about the layla. situation like we get that it's a reality show you understand it but she gave you no warning about

so how does that feel like as a friend to bring it up in real life it kind of sucked because i was like damn like this is a big situation and we're close enough where i thought she would have called me been like hey this is what's going on because let's be honest i would have played the game still like if she had given me a heads up i could have still been like maybe it wouldn't have been as authentic and raw yeah but i thought she would have told me but i talked to her about it after and she was like, I was terrified because, like, it was such a big deal. And she also didn't know if it was true. So she goes, I genuinely thought I was going to confront you and you were going to be like,

what? And deny it or say it was false. So I think in her head, she was like, oh, this isn't even real. And then I told her it was. And she was like, oh. I see what you're saying. Yeah. Okay.

That's a good fallback to be like, I thought you would be like, this isn't even true. And then it wouldn't destroy your life. Yeah. But. Yeah. But it was. But it was. It was.

I mean, not to the extent of what he said. But yes, I don't think she expected there to be. any validity. And then there was. And then you fucking call him. Oh, I was so mad. I was like, call him now. Like, he's lying. He knows he's lying. Like, it was crazy. And then for him to double down and be like, I knew she was going to do that. I'm like, what the fuck is a, I took a. Oh, so embarrassed. Okay. So is that a like Viagra Vi? Yes, but I didn't know that. So when he was saying it in real life, the weekend this happened, he was saying he took that. And I thought it was just a drug. So I'm like, oh, he's on drugs. Like, he's doing something crazy. And then when we were

filming. It came up that he took this and I was like, ew, like I had no clue. Maybe this is what guys are doing nowadays. They must be like young guys. Yeah. They're just like, and he said that on the call. Yes, he said on the call. And so we all made fun of him. And he said the obscene in the boxers, he said. That was gross too. I was like, what? Like he said all these details that I had never heard and like that sounded like a cop out to me. Yeah. And I was like, what is happening? Because the last time I talked to him, he was not doubling down on this. It was like very much like, I have your back. like. So you were going to keep this under wraps? Yes. So why did he, how did it happen then he went to talk to Layla? I think it was she reached out to him to try to figure out the

Demi stuff because we knew something there was fishy. So Demi was like lying and we knew it. So Laid was like, well, I'm friends with Marciano. I went to the villa. Like, I'm going to ask him. And she saw he was in town. So she's like, I'm going to meet up with him. And I think she kind of took it upon herself to have a moment, you know, and did not expect what was going to happen. What do you think about the Demi stuff now? Like, what's your take on it? Like, what? happened there. Because there we got no answers really still. Yeah, I feel like I have an opinion of what happened based off of like what I saw. I was there for a lot of it. The receipts I've seen. She's still doubling down on a certain narrative and I don't agree with the narrative. But I just feel

like on reality TV you can't have secrets and the truth will always come out, even if it takes a few seasons. Like I learn that the hard way. So I feel like eventually we'll know the truth. But you were going to go to the grave with this. 100%. Oh, yeah. By the way, when I I heard these rumors because there were rumors, right? When it happened, yeah. I would have been like, nah. I think everyone did. Right.

But you know what's weird? The rumors were like, oh, they were making out at Tom Tom. We never did that. The kiss happened in my hotel room. So the rumors were fake. How do you think the rumors got out? I think we were just seen together. We were with Brock and Sheena.

And then it looked probably like a double date. And we were kind of flirty because that's like the night it happened. So I maybe assumed people were just like, oh, they look flirty. Something must have happened. Did Sheena know about this? she didn't know from me. I later found out he had told her that night, and I didn't know that.

So, like, for months she knew and I had no idea. And she didn't confront you about it. No, yeah. How was Marciano so involved with everyone? I don't know. And it's all my fault. Like, I shouldn't have fell for it. But I was in such a weird place mentally that I just,

I always say it could have been anyone. Like, I was just looking for validation in like a shitty situation I was in. Like, confidence was beaten down. Not that it's okay, but like it wasn't him. It was just like someone being nice to me and, like, giving me attention. And that was something I hadn't had in my marriage.

So for me, I look back and I'm like, what was I thinking? What does he do? Is he, like, really good at the game? Is he, like, good flirt? Yeah, he's charming. He's, like, a nice guy. He shows interest. He said he has feelings for you on the show now.

He did, yeah. He said, like, I still, like, have, I care about her a lot. Or he said something to that extent. Yeah, he did. It was interesting because it lasted two weeks. Like, it wasn't long enough to, like, fall in love with someone. Yeah. But, I mean, I still.

I confided to him about my marriage. So, like, we did, like, get close, but not to the point where, like, I would say, like, oh, I'm in love with him or I have feelings. But, yeah, he, Sheena told me later, she was like, oh, he made it something. He was, like, moving to Utah. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, that's definitely not what happened. So it started the night of the TomTom. Yes. And then you go back home, you and Jordan are separated. Not you're having trouble or what was happening. Okay, so this is an interesting tidbit. So Jordan knew two weeks after it happened. for six months, Jordan and I knew about this, did not tell anyone we were working through on our own. And he told me during that time, he said, if anyone ever finds out about this,

let's just say we were separated because then it's easier. And I think he was embarrassed and like didn't want to be, I think in the season, he's like, I'm emasculated. Right. He was just embarrassed. So he said that. So when Layla confronted me, I panicked and I was like, shit, Jordan's going to want me to say we were separated. That was the plan if this ever came out. So I panicked and I said that. And then the next day I cleared it up with. Layla because I went home to Jordan and I was told him and he's like, oh, we should just tell the truth. I'm like, no, you're right. But I didn't know what else to say in the moment. So I tell Layla the next day, it might have been off camera that we weren't really separated, but they kept

in that I said that. So I was like, wait, kind of nice for me because the narrative sounds better, but it's not true. So you were together. We were together, but we were struggling. It was for sure cheating. But I had been emotionally abused for about four years. Like, it was a really bad situation and not to make it okay. Like, I take full accountability, but there's that buzzword again. But I just was in such a dark headspace. Like I was beaten down. My confidence was gone. And I honestly did like do it as like a cry for help. Like I was like, maybe if I do this, I can get out of what I'm in. Did you get out? Where are you at now? We were separated for 90 days and we're back together now. And I will say as weird as it is, it kind of needed to happen because

it forced us to like look at ourselves and be like, this has to change. And we were We've been in therapy and it's getting better. So I'm feeling hopeful about that and we'll see what happens. But we're definitely working through it. How does he feel about you about seeing the show? Because you talk about being emotionally abused. You tell the girls kind of what happened with Marciano. Yeah.

We see how Jordan is handling this in real time. Not too well. No. Like goes without saying like it's a hard situation. But now he's seeing this back. Yeah. So what's happened? Is it worse for him?

now? What's going on? I would say it was hard, obviously, when he found out. Then we dealt with it for six months. And then my cast found out. So then we had to film. So it kind of reopened the wound. Right. So you see all that. And then I would say, like, watching the show back, we made an agreement not to watch it with each other. Because we knew we were honest with each other. Like, I talked about this. I said this, but watching it could be triggering. So we watched a few episodes together, not the whole thing. And he had done a lot of therapy at that point. So I feel like he actually handled it way better than I thought he was going to, but having the public know, like the show, it comes out tomorrow as we're filming this, and no one's seen it yet. So we actually have no idea what the reaction

will be. People could hate me. They could hate him. I have no idea. I'm sure I'll get a lot of hate. I'm prepared for it. But I just don't, I have no idea how that'll, like, affect us. Jessie, I have to say, you owned it really quick. Thanks. And I was noticing what everybody was saying about you. Because at the beginning, it was like, you didn't show up to something. And it I was like, Jessie's never sick. Jesse always shows up. Jesse, you know, everything is always perfect with Jesse. Like, you never know anything's going on.

Nothing ever looks wrong. She's sick. She's there. And I was like, damn, that's a lot to live up to. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. So.

And it's the business owner in me. Like, I have no choice. You know, like I'm a mom. I'm a business owner. I have to show up. And I'm good at putting the mask on too because I like numbed in my marriage with what was going on. So I would like be in this abusive situation. and then have to like put on a happy face and go film or go work, you know.

So no one never knew anything was up with you. Not really. My family, like, knew. Like, they picked up on it. So I didn't confide in people the way I have now. So your mom who's here. Yeah. Such a cutie.

Looks amazing. Great jeans. Yes. She said on the show, I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner or it should have happened sooner. If you should have left him sooner. Right. So how does she feel about reconciling? My family was so supportive.

Like, they definitely felt like I deserved better. And when I told them about what happened, they weren't really that surprised because they were like, yeah, like something was going to happen at some point. Like, look how we treated you. But the reconciling, I think we have two kids. Like, I think they were like, if that's what's going, you know, work for you guys, then do it. Like, that's obviously the choice everyone would want. And my family is really close with his family. So it would actually be really hard if, like, we ended up getting divorced because they're best friends. We have a good thing going outside of the toxicity. But they had seen us both in therapy. That was a weird sentence to. say. I'm like, the people around us are great. It's just us that we suck. But what? You chose not to really describe the emotional abuse. Yeah. You're labeling it. But like, can you give us anything? Like, what were you going through? It was just a lot of like belittling, control, name calling, talking down, just like breaking my confidence. Like it, I don't think he even realized it fully what he had done to me until we were in therapy. And now he realizes it. But, yeah, I think that that scene where he's yelling at me on the couch, just imagine, like, if he's willing to do that on camera, how it was behind the scenes.

When you were crying. Yeah. So that's just kind of what it was, like, a lot. So it was hard. We'll be right back after the break. If you follow me on Instagram, you already know that I am absolutely obsessed with egg life. I discovered these wraps. They're made from egg whites.

No flour. This is a total game changer. And if you follow me, you know that I'm obsessed because the moment I started prioritizing protein and realize I can enjoy a high protein, low carb, PB&J on an egg life wrap and stay on track, I was hooked. You need egg life wraps in your fridge. I literally grab them, whether it's for breakfast, lunch, dinner, or a snack. If it's like for lunch, I could do two egg wraps with like a three. turkey cheese situation. If I have like some grilled chicken laying around, I could do that. My favorite is actually their cinnamon one. I heat it up 10 seconds in the microwave, put some peanut

butter, some jelly, roll it up and devour it, okay? I'm just in love. You can put obviously anything on it. I love making a nice like turkey, mayo little sandwich. Absolutely obsessed. And this is life changing. They have six different flavors. And it's just condoms. convenient. It's gluten-free, dairy-free, and it makes it so easy to sneak in extra protein. You can find Egg Life wraps, chilling at the fridge, at Aldi, at Whole Foods, at Kroger, Target, Walmart, and more. Visit www.org.org.com to find a retailer near you. Okay, you guys, I started watching all her fault on Peacock, and it's all my fault. No, I am obsessed. I haven't been able to get into a show in a bit. Like, no show has been able

to catch my attention. This one, all are her fault on Peacock, like binge freaking worthy. Like, you don't want to stop watching. Okay. So just in short, no spoilers. Melissa Irvine arrives to collect her young son Milo from his first play date with a boy from school. But the woman who answers the door isn't a mother that Marissa recognizes. This is every mom's worst nightmare, okay? This woman doesn't have her son, Milo, and has never heard of him. As Marissa and her husband Peter launched a desperate search for their missing son, new questions lead to deep secrets, revealing cracks in the Irvine's seemingly perfect world. Marissa also forms a really close alliance with her new friend, Jenny Kaminsky, who's also entangled in Milo's disappearance, okay? It's so

good together. They hunt for Milo, uncovering family secrets that alter the course of both of their lives forever. All Our Fault stars some of my favorite actors, Sarah Snook, Jake Lacey, Dakota Fanning, and Michael Peña. It's a star-studded cast that absolutely blow me away every single episode. It is a thriller. It is mysterious. It is dramatic and it is so good. Clear your schedule. You're going to want to binge every episode of the Certified Fresh Limited Series, all her fault, streaming only on Peacock. You guys know that I'm obsessed with finding those things that look expensive, but don't actually cost my entire life savings. That's why I love Quinn so much. They do luxury basics. They do washable sale. They do Mongolian cashmere, European linen, and all it prices that make you go,

how, like, I don't get it. This is how they cut out the middleman, okay? I've been living in quince. I actually just got these like clogs that are super cute. I actually just link them on my Instagram and so freaking comfortable. It's called the water repellent suede clog mule. And it's 6999 and I got the color dune. If you want to look like a girl who just threw this on, but secretly has her life together. Quince is it, you guys. And I literally get so many messages, like, things are turning me onto Quince. I'm now shopping there. I got my luggage from there. A follower just told me she bought, like, betting from there because I told you I bought, like, my actual physical bed, like anything that is out there that costs a lot of money and you

want to check if Quince has the same thing, but for cheaper, like, go. Go to Quince. Okay. Keep it classic and cozy this fall with long-lasting staples from Quince. Go to quince.com slash not skinny for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-I-N-C-E dot com

slash not skinny to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash not skinny. And we're back. I don't want to be insensitive to you getting back together. Yeah. But watching it. And I will say,

watching it because like there's a Jesse there and Jesse here today. Yeah. I was feeling like maybe part of you, like you said, you are glad that it happened, but like you were kind of like, maybe there was an inkling in you that was okay with it all blowing up because then you can get out. 100%. But then you're not out. Yeah.

I think it was like the reality of like, they didn't show much of our separation, but we had a hotel where he would go for two nights, I would go. And we filmed there and like it was the reality of co-parenting and doing it alone. and how our two kids were affected. And I think it just hit me. Like, this is really hard and really scary, and it would be my second divorce. And I want to make sure.

Like, I want to walk away from this with no regrets. And we're also filming a show. So, like, we're in a separation, but we also have to film together and talk about this every day. That's not a normal separation. Right. So it was almost like we didn't really give ourselves

a chance to process it. So I was like, Kay, cameras are going down. I actually now feel like I can try to make this work and see and give it my all. And if it doesn't work out a year from now, I tried. So I'm kind of like in that mindset where I'm like doing that. And he knows that.

Like we're both aware of the situation where we're like, we're going to make it work and we're going to try for our kids and for us. And if it doesn't work, we gave it our all. And if it does, great. Like, it's a marriage. You don't want to give up that easily. Right. But yeah.

Is he over it? Like, has he forgiven you? Yes and no. I feel like he still holds on to some resentment, which is human. Yeah. And especially with the show coming out. It's triggering, you know? Right.

But are you scared for her? he's going to handle or like if he's going to see go down a TikTok web of people being like he should leave her like I've been trying to warn him okay like you're going to see things online that may sway you yeah and I think he like thinks he is going to handle it well and maybe he will but I also know that like going into getting hate online you always think it's going to be fine and it's harder than you expect yeah so I don't know I am a little worried because he hasn't dealt with that before whereas I'm kind of used to it like right a show you always do I mean they're they have dad talk now now

Yeah. The business estate. Is that a thing? No, it really is. They have shirts. Yes. They have merch. What's going on? I mean, him and Dakota are in love. I always tease them. I'm like, they are just best, best, best, best friends. How do you feel about that? Do you like Dakota? Okay. Yeah. So Dakota's made dumb decisions. Right. They're really, I forgot. He opened up. Yeah. He was like, I can't believe you didn't tell me sooner. Like brothers. Yes. Oh, they're obsessed with each other. Like, he stayed in our hotel room here. Like, the first night we got here, like, slept on the pull-out couch. Oh, my God. But no, I actually really like Dakota. He's a good guy. He's just made some dumb decisions. Like, he's not a good partner, maybe. And I don't think he's good for Taylor.

I think they should not be together. But I love Taylor and I love Dakota. Obviously, Taylor's my girl. Like, she's who my loyalties with. But I actually do think Dakota's a really good person. He's just got to get it together, you know? That's so funny. They became so close, like, because of the show. Is that how they met? They met first season. Yeah. So they just, like, got really close. And they just confided in each other, especially. with this. And then Dakota and Taylor, like, Jordan would be there for him. So they kind of like trauma bonded, I'm sure, like over me and Taylor. It was, it, isn't it scary for you guys? Like, even Michaela is having some issues on the show. Which I didn't know until I really

watched it back. It was so sad. She's so vulnerable and opens up about everything she's been through. But the marriage part and then it's like, who's safe? No one. Not in Utah. What is that? Not in Utah or not on a reality TV show? Like that too. What is going on? Well, I think hers is a lot of childhood trauma that I think she's just now dealing with. And when you're on a show, you have to face a lot of your emotions so they come to the surface. Right. So I think that was mainly her thing. I do think her and Jace are solid.

Yeah. Every marriage goes through things. And that's such a real struggle with what she went through. But Jase is such a good guy. He really is. Yeah, he does seem like a really sweet guy. Also, just a general question about these dads. Yeah.

Because we talked about the emasculating issue with Jordan. Somebody mentioned on the show that he feels a type of way about. you making more money. Yeah, yeah. Have you noticed that, like, in your marriage? Yeah, I feel like men need, like, work as, like, a sense of identity, and it gives them purpose. And he stopped working, like, two or three years ago.

And I've been the one bringing in the money and having some success. And I feel like it just threatened his ego, not in, like, a way he was even aware of, but I think it really just rocked his, like, persona. Like, he's like, who am I? What am I doing, you know? And I think Zach went through it similarly with Jen in season one. And maybe it's something with the church, but just being really. raised that like the man's the head of the household and they take care of the family and they're

the breadwinner right but so many of these the dads aren't no they're all like leaning into this influencer life yes right but they also don't want to be full-time dads either like they want to have their cake and eat it too sometimes because well said Connor said he left his job yeah I think they all have honestly they all have every single one why because you girls are making money and they're like we don't have to well that and we film the show and you have to just kind of be available at all time. So it would be hard for someone to have a nine to five. And they were having regular, regular jobs. Jordan would sell solar and he would go to California, to Chicago, to Texas, and he'd be gone for like the whole summer. And so that was hard for me once I had my second baby. And I was

running three businesses. I was like, you cannot be gone. And I was making enough money so it didn't matter. He actually quit his job before the show. So that was before. But some of the dads by the way, your house is gorgeous. Oh, thank you. And I feel like the girls make common sometimes to me made a comment about last season or something. She was like, well, Jesse doesn't have to worry about money because like she's... She sits on an empire or something.

Yeah. And Layla made a comment to Jordan like, are you paying her for like staying at the house? Yeah. What did he feel about that comment? Oh, he hates it. I'm sure. And him and Layla kind of butted heads this season with her having an opinion. So I think he was like annoyed. But I think that it yeah, it just affects like his masculinity.

Like it's really funny. But for me, I'm like, as long as one of us is providing. So it doesn't, the question is, does it take away anything from how you feel about him? Like, like, if he's not working or like whatever, do you feel like that affects kind of your attraction to him? Yes. In the beginning, especially because he quit. And like, I had a hand in that because I was like, I have two kids. I can't have you gone. Right. So like I needed him to quit. But I thought he would like maybe find something. But then the show came out and it was hard because like our schedules were crazy, but there was a period of time where, like, he has a golf membership to,

like, a country club, and he just was golfing all day every day. And I was like, okay, like, this needs to change. So I will say now with Dad Talk, like, he is, like, doing things that, like, help us, you know? Like, he's getting some brand deals. What they're doing? Brand deals? Like, I'm good. Okay. I'm usually attached to them, so I will be honest. Like, he's not getting him without me. Sorry, Jordan. But, like, he's doing some things to bring in money. And he's doing something that he enjoys and he likes doing the show. Maybe after the third season, he's not so sure, but he's doing something now. And also, I gave him, like, when we moved into the new house, I was like, now you're in

charge of the house, like, anything with the house. So, like, he's taken that on, and that helps me, so. It's hard because when I was watching it, he did mention the feeling emasculated part. Yes. And what I was wondering with him, like, what do you think, like, was his reaction and heard more about what you did? Mm-hmm. And, like, you're my wife, you know, we're supposed to live.

or was how much was an ego thing? Because, like, by the way, he's not alone in this. This isn't a Jordan thing. Men have huge egos. Yeah. Like, I don't think my husband would forgive me if I cheated on him, to be honest. Oh, yeah.

Like, he wouldn't. And also, like, if he cheated on me, I would have slashed his tires. So, like, to be fair, it's like a totally real reaction. Yeah, it's a totally real reaction. But just the way he was talking about feeling emasculated, like, how big was that do you think for him

versus, like, you know, if nobody knew, for instance. No, that was a big part of it. Watching it back especially, like I felt that way in the moment, but watching it back, you think he said it like 10 times. And I was like, okay. So I actually think that was huge. He was just embarrassed of being emasculated. But I always told him, I'm like, it doesn't feel genuine when you talk about it because the energy doesn't match. Like, you're saying you're so sad, but then the ego comes out. So I do feel like that was a huge thing. And in therapy, like I brought that up a lot. So like anything I say now, like I've said to him. And I was very honest. I was like, that was so unattractive. Because it was almost like you

didn't care about me. It was just like the idea of me. And he's realized that. So we've definitely talked that through. And I think that was you're like spot on. Yeah. Well, I do really wish you guys to work it out if it's meant to happen. Yes. I mean, we have two kids. So I really do cope. And I will say like he's grown a lot and he's made a lot of changes that six months ago he couldn't have been this person. So I think watching yourself back and having it happened publicly, it kind of holds you accountable. So it's been good. Like as weird as that sounds like we needed it. Yeah. But we'll see. He probably doesn't like you saying that. No.

I'm sure he's like, oh, this needed to happen. Yeah. Not necessarily the cheating, but like our dynamic coming to light. Like people knowing about how he treated me. Like that needed to come out. Like he realizes that how he treated he wasn't okay. Yeah. Like he gets that.

I hope so. I mean, he does. But I think that he's really realized at just the last couple months of like seeing the episodes talking about it more. That's really, I think, what made him realize. I can't wait to see how he's going to feel when it all comes out. I know. By the way, it's going to be out by the time our episode comes out.

Yeah. So, wait. So when you guys went out to Tom Tom and everything happened, did he ask you? What are these rumors about? Yeah. Oh, yeah. So, okay, the rumors came out like maybe a week later, like a few days later. And yeah, I just laughed him off.

I was like, we were out together. Like, you knew it. Like, whatever. And he, I remember we were at a restaurant when one of the drama videos came out about it. And I remember Jordan was like, you should like, I think he was kind of to it. So he was like, you should text him and, like, see what he says about this. And I was like, oh, no. So I, like, had to text him real quick and be like, I'm about to text, you just pretend. So that I texted him and I was like, oh, we just saw these rumors. Isn't it crazy? And he

responded and was like, oh, yeah, that's so stupid. And so, like, that covered me for a minute. Oh, my God. But again, the affair only lasted two weeks. So that was one weekend. The next week it was over. And then when he did find out, obviously, he was like, I had a feeling. Like, he knew, he said. How did you decide to tell him? He found out. He went through my phone. Oh, he went through your phone. So you weren't deleting. No, I should have. Wait, did I? No, I think I had. I deleted, like, occasionally. But, like, and I was in such a weird headspace. Like, I wasn't trying to be sneaky. It was just happening. So I wasn't doing, like, anything to really prevent it, which is, again, a cry for help, I think. Yeah. I don't, maybe, yeah, I feel like maybe I wanted to get caught because I was, like, so miserable. But, no, he went through my phone and found out and it was really bad. And all hell broke clothes. Yes. But again, I'm so glad he found out. about two weeks in before it, like, spiraled, you know? So when he found out, is that when you cut it off?

Yes. Okay. Yes. So that's when you were like, we can't speak anymore. Yes. And then we didn't talk again until we filmed. And I saw him with like the lie detector and there were still some unresolved feelings. Like I think I was a little too nice to him.

You are. I was for sure. I'm like, I'm going to have to. You were like, get it. You were like vibing. Yeah, I know. You were vibing. There was a reason, but also watching back, I was so embarrassed.

I was like, ew. What was the reason? Well, I wanted him to take the lie detector. So I had to like, better. him up so he would be willing. I also wanted to know the truth about why he lied. What did me really did? Like, I just had so many questions. What answers did we get? Let's recap. What, what answers did we get? Well, he told us they kissed, which she denies, so who knows. But he's also a liar. He's also a liar. So he screwed himself over by lying about me because

now no one believes anything. But he also told me that she had coerced and they had been talking for a while to, like, have my story come out. And he showed me all the text messages. Like, I got actually a lot of information. A lot of the receipts I had at the reunion. I I had those. But also, like, there were some unresolved feelings. I'm not going to lie. Like, it was, like, the first time I had seen him since it all ended. And even though we had ended badly and, like, it needed to end, like, I had confided in him about my marriage with Jordan because there was no one else I could talk to. And he's like a good person to talk to him. No, he's not. But I needed something. Okay. Yeah. Because at the time, I didn't feel like I could talk to my friends or

family because then they would, like, they knew, obviously, from like, viewing things. But if I opened up, it would be really hard to go back. And I was just trying to pretend it was all good. So he was an unbiased third party that I could just talk to. And so I had a little connection with him because of that. Yeah. And so I, there was still some unresolved things. But not that I was in love with them, I just, I hadn't seen him in so long.

It was like seeing like an ex of some sort. Yeah. And looking back, I was in a weird headspace. I genuinely thought I was getting divorced. Like it was really bad with me. And Jordan, you saw him yell at me when I go home. That's how it was every day. So I was just, yeah, I was in a weird headspace.

You wish you weren't as nice to him. Yeah. Yeah. Especially with, like, how he lied about me. Like, I was so pissed. I wish I would have been a little harsher and, like, said my truth. Yeah. And what was his reason for lying?

That's what I don't get. I think Demi was definitely coercing him and to, like, this will get the heat off of her. And I think he had feelings for her, too. So he was like, oh. What the hell? Oh, for sure. Yeah. He was, like, in love with her at the bill.

Really? Yes. Like, it was very known to everyone. So somebody mentioned this. I don't know if it was Taylor or one of the other. wives, women, said, like, they wouldn't want to be his, like, number two. Oh, yeah, Taylor was like, well, if she chose, he chose to me first, I wouldn't want to be number two. So how do you feel about that, though?

That's Taylor's trauma talking, because she was, like, Dakota's second choice with all the other girls he chose over her, you know? So I knew where that was coming from with Taylor. But for me, again, it wasn't about Marciano or him choosing to me. You weren't like, you don't care that he had a thing for me. No, it was just someone giving me attention and I needed that at the time. Because I could tell that you don't care. No. Unless you're, like, literally a robot.

jealous at all. I'm not a jealous person at all. I could tell. I just was like a whatever. So Yeah. Yeah. There were reasons, I think. Taylor really nails it. Like, you two and her, like she says it how it is. Yeah. Like, you guys chose her to be the leader. She is our leader. Officially, the leader of mom talk. But she does talk like she makes her love life kind of mistakes maybe sometimes. But she owns it. Talks a lot of sense. Like. Yeah. And it's the only way. Like, on reality you can't have secrets. So, like, you have to own it, you know? You have to own it. But she also does not care about money, which I love about Taylor. That is. Like, she would never throw someone under the best for that, whereas Demi might. Demi wanted three times.

Yes. Whitney comes back to the show for the dancing with the stars opportunity. Pops back up, pops right up. Yeah. Was that, what was that? So you guys thought going into it, Whitney and Demi are not filming. Yeah, they're out. They're out. They both had literally, like, were officially done. Like, Connor sent Jordan a text, like, we feel so good about our decision. We're not coming back. Like, we thought they were done, done. And then they get the email. Yes. He was coerced back, for sure. She was coerced back. And we were dying. Like, when she came back, I was like, yeah, I'm here for that. Like, I think that's my two. It was like, what? Like, we were all like, and we were all like, and we were a little hurt because we're like, you're not here for the friendships.

Like, you don't care about that? And she's like, no. So we were like, okay. But she changed her tune after. She did. It was a defense mechanism. So you believe that. You think that she does care about you guys. Yes. I think she was really hurt. And just, like, Like, I was the villain season one. Like, these girls hurt me. Like, obviously, her feelings were valid. But I think that she was just trying to have, like, a tough exterior to not get her. You do?

Yeah, I do. And why do you think Demi didn't come back? She didn't want to get caught in her lies? Yeah. Yeah, 100%. And she's stubborn. Like, she wants more money. She thinks she's worthy of it.

She was a fan favorite. And that went straight to her head. Like, I saw it overnight. Wait, what does this fan favorite mean? Because that's, I don't think that was said anywhere. Okay. So what it was is on TikTok, the ranking? Did you ever see that filter?

No. No. You didn't? Oh, no. It was brutal. So people had a ranking of us one through 10 and they would rank our faces as their favorite to least favorite. And she was always number one. Like it was either her. As a filter? As a filter? It was like it was a game they would play where they would like take the head and knock it over to like the spot they wanted it in. And it was either her, Taylor, always number one. So I think that just like skyrocketed her confidence. And she came into season two very different. Like it was an overnight switch. And now she's a master villainess. Yes. And I don't know if she'll ever be. to drop that title because I think season three made her look worse than two, if I'm being honest. It's either lean in or go home. And maybe that's what she's doing. Maybe she thinks it will get her more money. No, but me, like, I think at this point, you're like a beautiful villain. Yeah. And like, and like, and just fucking rock it because. Yeah. I think that might be her strategy now. Who knows? But DeMey thinks she's right. That's the weird thing is like she's not trying to be a villain maybe,

but like she. She's convinced, like she does have a very like. She's very eloquent and she's very passionate, so you believe her. Like, is there, there's that scene in there where she, like, talks to Whitney and Whitney, like, believes her. And then Whitney goes home and talks to Connor. And she's like, wait. Yeah, and then she goes home and she's like talking to Connor. She's like, wait. And then she door-dashed him food. And she's like figuring it out in real time. Like, you can see how Demi manipulates people. It happened to me a lot. You were close with her, actually. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So would you say the friendship fell out because of Marciano's stuff? Or it goes deeper than that? It started with Contracts Season 1. And then

then the hair drama. And we actually ended our friendship before the Marciano staff came to be. So we were already done. And then she found out about it because she had a conversation with Marciano and Sheena. They were having like a three-way phone call. And I think he told her on the phone call. And we were already done. But then she heard about it. And that's when she was like, oh. And I think that's why she was willing to take it public because we weren't friends anymore. And that just really like put the nail in the coffin and all of that. It really sounded on the show like her and Marciano have like a relationship. Thank you. Yes. It does. Doesn't it?

Like they talk all the time. I mean, did you see that scene where Layla's confronting her and she's like scrolling through all her texts with him? It was like a novel. But she's like, no, no, nothing happened. I'm like, you don't talk to another man that much if nothing happened. But her husband seems like he would be pretty like on top of it. So what do you think is going on there?

I think she can be very convincing. Oh, you do? Yeah. I do. And do you think he believes her about everything that went down? No. Actually, after the villa, he like came to Jordan at the gym a few times because they worked out together. And he was very like, I'm sick to my stomach. Do you think something happened?

Like he kept asking. And then there was a day where we were all hanging out at my house and he asked Taylor the same thing. He was like, I just feel like something's off. And what did everybody say? Well, at the time, we were all just like, no, nothing happened because we were friends with her. And I was definitely like covering my true thoughts on that at the moment. But no, I think he knew. But now that it's gotten to this point, I think he's just like, maybe they have like a truth pact of like, we'll just cover each other. Like, I don't know. I'm just saying that. But like, I think I think he does buy it now, which is interesting. Do you think she could ever come back to Mom Talk?

I'm going to try to be professional if she does. Like if she ever wants to, like, be in Mom Talk again. No one's really that close with her outside of Whitney, so she could. I'll be around her if I need to, but it just sucks when you have to fight with a coworker. Like you saw us at that hydro drug event. Like I'm screaming at her. I'm sure it would get to that again. No, when she, listen, like I said this season, you guys, if you haven't binge it all, but if you're listening, you probably did already.

when she goes like this to you. It was so surreal, right? What? I had to rewind that. Yeah, and it's been in every trailer. It's so funny because it's so unbelievable. Oh, I didn't even see it in the trailer. Oh, it was so funny.

I'm so glad I got to experience it. Well, the fact that we were in like tea party dresses and we were at the Grand America. Like, it was such not the like vibe. She goes savage. Like, I don't even know the word for what she does. Like that moment of like this in a fucking dress. Yes. I felt like I was out of my body watching that. It was the weirdest thing. And also when she told Layla like, I'm about to go live. I'm about to go live. I'm about to go live. I'm going to go live. Oh, my God. I was getting like heart palpitations. Oh, I thought that was going to happen. Like Layla called me and I was like, it's over tonight. And this was before anyone knew. The season. No, she was about to go live. Yeah, she was. I don't know what stopped her. I'm not sure. But. Well, the producer came over.

Yeah. And they were like, no, no, no. This season. That's how you know this is all real. Right. That and like that air hump scene. like someone filmed it on an iPhone. Our cameras weren't even there. Like, thank God they caught it. But like that's real. Like it's so real. It sucks that it's real. That was crazy. Like you can never be friends with her again after something like that. Never. Like we tried for a minute. Like you'll see at the end of the season. Like we come together and everyone like apologizes. Oh, well, they didn't give us episode 10. You didn't see it. Yes. You need to watch. And I will say like at that point I was so exhausted of like my marriage falling apart. Separation fighting with me. I was like, I'm just going to try to like, put it to the side.

Yeah. Then a few months later, I saw her true colors again. So I'm like, I'm done with you. Like, I'll never, ever be her friend again. We'll be right back after the break. I've been having so much Christmas card, FOMO, that I might need to do a Hanukkah card. I have used Minted before for Lenny's birth announcement.

And I've lately seen everybody post their holiday family photos using Minted. And I'm kind of obsessed. I might need to do that. because getting a minted holiday card in the mail is like getting a hit of serotonin straight to your door. 10 out of 10 recommend being the friend who sends that joy. Minted has unmatched paper quality and customization options that allow you to up level those holiday cards. You can make a statement and just make really, really special memories. Minted makes things easier with free recipient addressing. So they print all your loved ones addresses on envelopes,

for free. So if you're looking to make cute, sweet, memorable memories with your family this holiday season and send your friends and family some keepsake love, check out minted, and bring your traditions to life with independent art and design this holiday season. Use code not skinny for 20% off minted holiday cards, gifts, and wrapping paper. Again, that's code not skinny for 20% off your minted holiday cards, gifts, and wrapping paper. Again, that's code not skinny for 20% off your minted holiday cards. It's only a week until Thanksgiving, aka there's only a week until sideline 2 on 2B comes out. Sideline 2 is the sequel to sideline, the QB and me,

one of 2B's breakout YA films. So Drayton and Dallas are back and college is already testing their relationship. It's set in L.A. where even being in the same city feels like long distance. It's got football, dance, relationships, tension, and emotional spirals. It's messy in the best way. The drama is premium and it's free to be free. You don't even have to make an account. Just hit play and suddenly you're in the middle of all this delicious chaos. So if you need something to fully consume your brain, highly recommend sideline two on to be. You can watch sideline two intercepted free on to be. Thanksgiving, okay? Watch sideline two intercepted free on to be this Thanksgiving.

If you're not living under Iraq, you know that colostrum is all the rage. Cowboy Colostrum is a women, cowgirl-owned wellness brand rooted in nature and primal nourishment. It specializes in premium colostrum supplements source from U.S. grass-fed cows. So as you know, Colostrum is what comes out of women's boobs right after they give birth. So that's like that yellowish milk that comes out of the breast when you have a baby. And it is called liquid gold. Okay. And for good reason. It's the very first nutrition we receive at birth. So it's packed with immune and growth factors that your body still benefits from today. Calvoy Colostrum has the highest naturally occurring bioactives to support your immune system, gut health, hair, skin,

nails, and muscle recovery. Unlike other brands, Cowboy Colostrum has never altered whole, first day milking colostrum that's harvested ethically with a calf-first approach, only collecting the surplus colostrum once the baby calf has had their share. This is all rooted in freaking nature. They also have incredible milkshake-like flavors like chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry. Visit Cowboy Colostrum and use my code not skinny for 20% off your first purchase. And we're back. When she tried to trash talk your business, like about not wanting to do hair with you, you were friends at that point. Yeah. So that's crazy. Best friends. Yeah. Yeah. And I hadn't done her hair yet when she said that. So she didn't.

didn't even know. That's what was wild to me. How does it work if they come to you? Do they get it for freezes? If they post? But they don't have to post. I mean, they don't really sometimes. Sometimes they do. Sometimes the girls are good at it. Sometimes they forget, which is fine. But I feel like I am the one. I said it in season two. Like, free extensions, free color, free styling. I style their hair on girls trips. I'm always doing the hair. And I love doing it. So I'm not complaining. But when something like that happens to me, it's like, oh, like, were you just taking advantage then? Because you asked me to style your hair every other day. Yeah. She got free washing styles at my hair school. And she would take advantage

of that like three times a week. And so I'm like, what? It was just shocking. What is the like advantages and disadvantages of having your business like showcase on the show? Like advantages, visibility, people know about it. But it gets caught up in like drama. Yes. Like people talk about it's good, not good. This season we had, um, Layla's issue, which you were so understanding about. And is understandable. But again, it like comes up and you said, yeah, I'm learning this still. But So how do you feel about, like, the business being? There's, like, pros and cons. The pro is that Jay-Z Stiles is the only landmark on Secret Lives that you can go visit.

Like, people stop in and take pictures, and we film our confessionals there at the warehouse. So people get to see us sometimes. Like, we're usually there. So people love that, and it's been great for the business. Like, when season one came out, our curling iron sold out in 24 hours. It was great. But, yeah, the downsides are when people attack it or say bad things. Like, it scares me.

And I'm so protective of it because it's my family. Like, it's our family business. We've built this from nothing, and I employ literally all my family. My dad's my business partner. So when someone attacks it, it doesn't just feel like they're attacking my source of income. It's my family. And it's something we've all worked really hard for.

So that's why I get emotional about it. No, of course. So do you ever think, like, was it worth it to have it like on the show? Yeah, it was worth it. Like, what it's done for my stylist, like they're all so busy now, it's worth it. But it sucks when I feel like I have to defend it when I'm pretty well respected in the industry. Like, I've been teaching hair classes for seven years.

Like, I mean, I had a multi-million dollar business before the show. So it wasn't just an overnight success because of the show. Right. So I just get defensive because I'm like, I've worked for 10 years for this. Like, you know. Do you still do hair? I do occasionally. There is no way I could take clients now.

Yeah. And so that's hard. But I do it for content. I do the girl's hair. I do friends and family occasionally. But now it's fun for me. You do your own? I do where my mom does it.

Oh, yeah. I did see your mom doing your hair. This whole press tour. It's been nice. Okay. And you've done. something different with the hair. You took out a lot of extensions or something. I like it. Thank you. I still have a lot of fake hair in. But in season two, I think I had like 24 inches in.

It was really long. And I'm 5 too. So that was kind of a lot. Right. Right. Like it's a height thing. Yes. Like when you're taller, maybe you could do longer. Yes, because 24 inches is here on you. Whereas on me, it's like here. Right. But you did maybe like a TikTok or a story or something when you had none in, right? Yes. I've done a lot. Yeah. And my hair's actually grown quite a bit because I've been like, I was dark for a while. So not having lightener on it was helpful. Right. And then I went blonde again. But it's gotten a lot healthier than it used to be.

But everyone has extensions. Everyone. In Utah or everywhere? Utah is such a vein state. Like there's how many salons on our corner, like 52 salons on our street, I swear. Like everyone's getting lashes, Botox, hair. It's just a thing in our culture. So it's like perfectionism and Mormonism.

Yeah. We all love to like look perfect and sound perfect and act perfect. Right. Which benefits my business. I love it. But you also opened up about other. cosmetic stuff. Yes, yeah. What did you do? Oh gosh. The nostrils. Yes, I tucked them. It's not a full nose job. They just like kind of flared a little and I just tucked them in. Are you happy with it?

So it was like so happy. Yeah? Yes. You were like my nostrils flare too much. Yeah, I was just like they're a little too wide. Did this start because of watching yourself on camera? Honestly, not even watching myself. It was the hate I got after. I got so many hate comments. You look old. You look like a man. Like you are so ugly. Like it was really flooded. Really? Yeah. And I had a lot of fill. looking back, I'm like, oh, I do look old, and I dissolved it all. Okay. And that made a huge difference. So I did start to feel self-conscious because of the comments I got.

That's terrible. Thank you. I mean, it's just part of being on TV. People are so mean. But I think every woman has insecurities, right? But when you're public, it's- And when you're public, and then it does happen that you see yourself from this angle and that angle and you're like, oh, so you thought your nostrils flared too much.

Nobody tried to talk you out of it and say. I'm sure my mom did. Like, you're beautiful. Yeah. Thanks, Mom. But I just, it was actually always an insecurity of mine. I was like it was a little too wide. So I went to the doctor.

My husband got a hair transplant through this doctor. And I just was in Jordan's appointment with him and just asked him about it. And he's like, oh, you don't even need a Nile's job. We could just tuck it. It's like a 10-minute procedure. And I was like, oh, I didn't have to get put under. It was very minor. Oh.

Yeah, it was really quick. You didn't have to get put under? No, laughing gas, baby. Just like our Botox. Do they have to detach and then attach? Do you see like these little lines? just, like, very subtle right there. Like, barely.

I know. It's really subtle. But, like, yeah, they literally just, like, cut a little bit and sewed it down. So it was crazy. Oh, and also, I got the CO2 laser. Okay. Melted my face off. I looked like a raisin.

And I did the nose at the same time because we had three weeks off filming. So I was like, I'm going to do it now. And then they pick back up and I still kind of had, like, CO2 aftermath. So in the first episode, I think you, like, my face is, like, so red when I'm talking to Jordan. Oh, right. It was. It looked like I had, like, so much acne.

And that was the CO2 laser. because I had no idea that was going to be happening. I'm like, I wouldn't have done it. Wait, the CO2 laser, I heard that, like, people were, like, wait till you're older. People said that because they really like... I love it. Yeah? It, like, just made my skin, like, softer and brighter.

It just takes off the first layer of it. So it's not like it, like, helps with aging, but, like, it just makes you look, like, more refreshed. Okay. It was great. So I've done that, the nose. I did an under eye pinch. Very subtle as well.

What is that? Basically, the same thing as the nose. It's not a full blet. They just take a tiny bit. You don't have to be put. under and just like if you have bags or like loose skin it just tightens it a little it does look really tight thanks I'm really tired right now so it probably looks terrible but no it looks good but yeah just minor tweaks that I feel like have helped me I don't think I'll ever go overboard like I don't want

to be getting 20 plastic surgeries or anything but they've helped me a little bit with my confidence and you know what a lot of celebrities do this and they just don't talk about it yeah and so I feel like it's good to be transparent so people don't just have this like unattainable expectation of beauty yeah But a lot of celebrities are, like, talking about it now. It's kind of a trend. Like, I mean, Chris Jenner talked about it. She's 70. But we don't have like...

But that's to be expected. Right. But we don't have like young actresses that obviously did something. When you interviewed her, was it after the facelift? Right. She look amazing. Amazing. I like, see her and I'm like, you're 35.

Like... So this is what I say. Like, she doesn't look 35, you know? Oh, yeah. But she looks amazing. Like, great for 70. Yeah. Well, I will say I met Chloe.

I think you guys see it in the season. We met Chloe. and Scott. At the Unreal event. Oh, my God. Yeah. Taylor told him that he was Dakota. Oh, yeah. She's like, we have a... We have a Scott. Yeah. We have a Scott. I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. I don't know if I would say, maybe. But I will say, Chloe looks like a filter, like in person. You've met her. Yeah. She was so beautiful. I was like, shit, I thought it was all-smoking mirrors, but you're so pretty. She probably hovered over you like fucking crazy. I'm 5-2. She's like not 5-2.

Oh, my God. Okay. Okay. Whitney. Oh, Whitney. Whitney and dancing with the stars. So when both of them got into dancing with stars, Jen and Whitney, you guys all were there supporting. Yeah. But then we watched this season and we see every. So catch me up to speed. Yeah.

So friends, not friends. So, okay, so I guess you don't see the last episode yet. Okay. Where we all come together a little bit. We have like a little get together where Whitney admits like it was a defense mechanism and like I do love you guys and I want to be a part of this. Yeah. So there had been a lot of progress since, you know, the. season was filmed. But yeah, no, I'm so proud of Whitney. Like, she is killing it. This is her

calling. She is meant to be an entertainer. Yeah, me and Whitney are great. We went to Europe together. I think she did your podcast right after Europe. Okay. And I'm not going to lie. And we both said this to each other. Like, we got paired for that and we were like, oh, great. Like, what? Got paired to go to Europe? To go to Europe for our press tour for season two. And it was just me and her. And you were like, what? And I was like, I'm not really friends with Whitney. Like, season two ended kind of awkward. Like, I don't know. But we had the best time. And we got really close and it changed our friendship I felt like. And yeah, and then she quit. So I was like, oh, dang. And then she came back and we were a little hurt because of, you know, I'm only here

for this opportunity, which felt a little weird. Right. But then she explained it. Things were fine. And Whitney deep down, I think she's just misunderstood. I really do. And I think she's getting so much love now. Yes, which is great. I mean, the thing is that it made me think about is like, and this should make any, you know, new reality star, maybe even DeMe have some hope. But things can turn around for you. The audience changes their thoughts very quickly, I will say. Like, the audience hated Whitney. Yes, and now it's like Queen.

And now she's their fucking queen. Yes, which honestly, good for Whitney. They're sticking with it and not just running away. And also not giving a shit saying like, I want to do dancing with the stars. Yeah. Love me or hate me. I'm here. And she kept on being her the whole time.

Yeah, she did. She just got them to love her. Yep. And that just kind of shows you that the audience can be fixed. at times. The audience? Do you think she's going to win? I think she's a really good chance.

I know she'll make it to the finale. Like, she is so talented. Like, it's crazy that you're saying this because I'm literally flashing back to her saying that she got like extensions in the last episode, when the last episode I saw. Oh, yeah. And then she said, it's not Jay Z. I refused. She did shape me a little bit.

Actually, watching that back, I was like, damn, why am I supporting her? Because she did shave my business. Just kidding. I will say at that time, things were still a little up and down with Whitney and me. And then also, she's best friends with Demi. So she is buying what Demi's. selling at the time. But yeah, I did see that and I was like, damn. And what do you think about Jen on Dancing with the Stars? I was so sad when she got voted off. We were there in the audience,

so it was like kind of bitter. Do you think it was like unfair? I do. I feel like she should have made it at least a few more weeks. And yeah, for me, you know being postpartum. Like she made it seven weeks. That's incredible. Yeah. I know she was really shocked and like sad and it's been sad. But she also like honestly needed a break. So I'm really happy she's been able to have some down time. But she's so talented too. And I love seeing like Jen's element is like when they did the danceathon on the Halloween episode. And she got to just like let loose. That's her element. Not so much like trained stuff because that was new to her, but just like having fun with it. So I hope she gets to do more with that type of thing. Were you guys jealous when they got the dancing

with the stars? No. Well, I don't know if everyone wasn't, but I think you see me interview for it. I don't. Yes. I was like, don't give it to me. No, you were literally like, nope, no, don't dance. Nope, just for fun. Then I was like, are you trying to get this? I was like, are you trying to get this? this woman? No, I wasn't. And also, we knew it was like Whitney and Jen's dream. So, like, I would never have been, like, give it to me. But also, I would be so embarrassed. I would go home night one. I would be like when Kim Kardashian did it. And, like, she didn't go very far. That would be me. Like, I'm not a dancer. But maybe the other girl said. You know, I could see Taylor maybe doing it after being Bachelorette. Don't they usually do that?

Wait, let's get to a Bachelorette in a second. But who said, no, who said that they started negotiating the contract with, like, an acting role? Whitney. Is that a thing? She did that. She, like, give me a different acting role on Hulu? Yeah, she wanted with Disney. She wanted to come back season three. Demi wanted more money. Whitney wanted to have a scripted role on Disney. How does it get to all of you, like what people are negotiating? You don't have your own lawyers? No, we do. Some of us share one. He doesn't tell us things. We talk amongst ourselves. Like maybe Whitney said it to Connor. Connor said it to Jordan. Oh my God. I'm sure that's what happened. But she owned it. She admitted it.

She's like, yeah. Yeah, she's like, yeah, I wanted that. Honestly, I will say Whitney. Like, she goes for what she wants. So she probably will get one one day. Like, honestly. We're going to see her in a... Yeah, she is an actress.

Like, she is good. Honestly, I'm like, why are you in reality? Go, like, be a star. Like, she's so great at what she does. You guys, look at the support over here. No, I love Whitney. I really do. She loves Whitney.

Okay. I know that's weird with our history, but like, I really, I love Whitney. But she would talk the same about you right now. I would hope so. I just saw her the other day. And, yeah, like, she gave me her Dance with the Stars tickets last week. Like, I think she would. So everyone but Demi are good with?

Yes. Yes. Oh, yeah, 100%. Yes. Sorry. I was just saying that because it's awkward. Everyone also is probably in the similar boat with Demi. Like, when he was the only one friends with her, the girls are cordial.

Like, if they see her, they'll say hi, but no one's, like, friends with Demi. And would you say hi? No. I saw her at Dance in the Stars. We sat at the same table. Didn't even look at her. Stop. She's, yeah.

I've been burned too many times. Yeah. I think a lot of people are like, why do you keep going back? But I have to learn my lessons like five times. Yeah. Like my marriage is the same way. I'm like, I got to learn the hard way. But yeah, I never again.

I hit a point where I'm like, okay, I'm actually done. Yeah. And that's, that point has come. And Taylor being the Bachelorette. How did you guys react to that? Yeah, I was with her when she got it. And like, it was so cool because she's never seen the show, which I think is endearing. Like, she's seen like here and there, but I grew up watching it.

So explaining it to her, like, this is a rose ceremony. Like, it was cool to kind of, like, see, like, her journey getting there. Yeah. So I'm just so excited for her. Did they start filming? Yeah, she's doing it right now. So it's been weird because she's not around and, like, our leader's gone. Our leaders?

Fearless leader. Somebody's going to take over the mom's like leadership, you guys. I'm like, who's coming for the position. Yeah. But no, she's going to, like, I always joke, it's going to be like Taylor's version of the Bachelorette. Like, it's going to be crazy. Oh, for sure. It's going to go road.

She doesn't follow rules, so we'll see. But I think that that, like, if I had to guess, that was the direct. that was the direction, you know what I mean? They knew what they were getting with Taylor. They wanted to spice it up and not have the same old thing. Yeah, and I think that was the best choice they could have made. Like, Taylor is so unapologetically herself. Yeah.

She is such a good friend, such a good person. And she's going to, like, be really inspiring. Like, I'm sure it'll be messy at times. But she genuinely just wants to find someone to love her. And she deserves that. I'm so excited for her. It's going to be great. I know.

I'm just wondering, like, who's going to move to Utah with her. I think all the guys, like, had to be. be willing, I'm sure. Like, well, they announced her as the Bachelorette. Right. So they knew what they were getting into. And I'm sure as she's talking to them, I would assume she'd be like, if you're not willing to move, like, she can't move. She has two baby daddy. Did Jen move to L.A.? I think she, yeah, I don't know what her long-term plan is, but I think she's there still. Yeah. So we'll see. I hope she comes back, though. Like, yeah. It's funny because her and Whitney have been so M. I, like, honestly, the whole series. Like, it's like they're gone and then L.A.,

and then they quit or, like, Jen left. So I hope we have a season again sometime in the future where we're all back. Are you filming right now? We're always filming. Always. You're always filming. It's a lot. Oh, my God. And these like influencer events. Yeah. I have to ask. Because like, yes, of course I know about influence. But you guys go to a bunch. Utah's like breeding ground for influencers. Yeah. So it's not like a mom talk requirement. No. To attend. No, not really. But if it's a brand you've worked with or you love or like your friends are throwing it. Yeah. But there's a lot of influencers in Utah. That's so crazy. Mommy blogging like kind of started in Utah. You know what I mean? Like Rachel Parcell, like did you know who that is?

Like there's a bunch of mommy bloggers and it just kind of turned into what it is. I got you. Yeah. Did we ever find out who the mole was? No. I actually forgot about that. Yeah, that was really weird. We thought it was Miranda now. Yes. I will say when like the two months me and me were talking again, we asked her about Brett driving by and she was like, no, that was fully me like sending him to drive by because like I was going crazy. Like I was like not in mom talk and I wanted to know what was going on. So she, like, genuinely, like, made him drive by. Your house? Yeah. Was that in there? Like the footage of him driving by? Yeah. She owned it. She was like, yeah, I made him do that. I was like, oh, okay. Isn't that weird?

Yeah, a little. Miranda is really great. I love Miranda. Miranda seems like so, like, with it and gets it and, like, level-headed. And she's so mature. She's great. I love Miranda. Nothing bad to say about her ever. She's really great. Yeah. Also, I wanted to ask just about, your first divorce. Yeah. Because you said it really quickly on the show. You said, I'm about to be divorced twice. Yeah.

Did you ever talk about your first divorce? I've talked about it with my friends. I don't know if I ever made it on the show. But, yeah, I was divorced. I was married for five years. And it was ironic because me and Jordan were at five years when we separated. So I was like, it's the five-year curse. Like, I can't make it past five years.

But, yeah, I was divorced and that sucks. Like, it's always hard going through that, especially when you've been to someone. Oh, who were you? I got married at 22 and I got divorced at 27. So I was, like, pretty young. And is he, he's the Z and the JZ? Yes. So then I named my son Jagger Zane so that I could have, like, a new meaning for Jay Z.

Okay, got it. Because, yeah, he was the Z. And, yeah, I haven't talked to him. He's remarried, I think, and happy. So I'm happy for him. But it was a traumatic experience. And I jumped into Jordan very quickly. And I think that's another reason we struggled is I just was, like, headfirst, didn't even recover from my divorce.

Really? I just got remarried. I was divorced in December, married by March, so it was very fast. What? Yeah. Were you pregnant? Shortly after, yeah. Shortly after.

Yes. So that is wild. Very quick. It was insane. So I didn't have time to process. So like, honestly, during my separation with Jordan, I was processing my first divorce at the same time because it like brought up all those wounds where I was like, whoa. Like, I didn't even deal with this.

And also you and Jordan didn't have time to like fully get to know each other. So what was the rush on getting married? It's just Utah. Like, everyone does that. Like, there's a thing called, like, ring by spring where, like, if you meet someone in the fall, you're married by spring. It's crazy.

It's like the BYU culture. Everyone gets married young and very quickly, like, within six months. And you kind of left the church? Uh-huh, yeah, after my first marriage. Because of the divorce? Kind of. Like, his family was very Mormon.

And I felt shamed a lot for that because I grew up with my dad not being active. and my mom was. So I just kind of felt like I was never good enough. And the culture can be very judgmental in Utah with Mormonism. And I just really realized it in my marriage. And I was like, oh, I don't know if I want this. So I left after that. And I have friends, family employees who are Mormon, love it so much. And I was Mormon for 25 years. But I just kind of like the older I got was like, I don't know if this is for me. We're crazy in Utah. We really are. You really are. Yeah, we are. Like it's like, you're about to offer laughing gas at Jay-Z.

I know. I'm like getting your extensions and that hurts. Have some. Not a bad idea. Maybe that's my next move, honestly. That could be a vibe. Oh my gosh. It would be hilarious. Have you ever had extensions? I have not. Okay. Because it can hurt. My hair's like thick. Yeah, you don't need them. But when you get them sewn in like your little tender the first couple days. No, it looked, by the way, like, I was like, oh my God. Like, that's a lot. When Layla got hers. Yeah. Hers was more intense than what we do because she's ethnic. But yeah, it was an intense process. That's why I wanted to look under the hood when I was like, can I see what they did? I know. You're so cute. You're like, let me just see how they did it. I want to learn. I was curious. Have you since. Once you learned. Yeah, I actually, I met with her hairstylist. She came to my salon and I gave her a tour.

She taught me some things. I taught her some things. And it was like really cool. So it was a good like learning moment full circle. There's another hair stylist, a hair by Chrissy. Yes. Do you have hair styling beef? People compare us a lot.

Why? Because she's in Arizona. I'm in Utah. So we're like Jay-Z and Hair by Chrissy. Like Habit Salon is the name of her salon. And like they just compare us a lot. Like who? Like the internet.

Just the hair industry. Oh, the hair industry. Because I've been in that forever, you know. I will say, like, Chrissy's been one of my idols. Like, I went to a few of her classes back in the day. I love her. Like, I know her and her husband. You're honored to be compared to?

Yes, totally. I don't know how she feels about me, but I think she's great. So, either she's media trained or she's fucking good. Me? Or you? No, I just, I genuinely, like, I was one of her biggest fans, like, coming up in my career. Oh, that's amazing. So that's like, that must feel good to be compared to her.

Yeah. It's a compliment. Yeah. Again, I don't know how she feels about me. Like, competitive. is always hard. And Macy and Mikaela did go to her and then they started coming to me. So I don't know if like that caused any issues, but she is talented and like she's built something crazy, amazing. So. Well, hair by Chrissy. If you hear this, say something nice back.

I love you, Chrissy. Thank you for coming on. Finally. Thank you for having me. I hope that. Everything's good. Thank you. Everything's better. But it's coming out tomorrow so I could be saying something different in a week. Well, no. I'm going to be girding my loins. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Let's do it. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of Not Skinny but Not Fat. Follow me on Instagram at Not Skinny but Not Fat. Subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any episodes. Rate the podcast that you love so much on Apple Podcasts and write a little review.

If you tell me you did, I'll give you a big virtual smoocharoo. Thank you guys so much for listening and I'll see you next Tuesday. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.