Not Skinny But Not Fat - Penn Badgley: Seriously Unserious

Episode Date: November 11, 2025

Actor, podcaster, Scorpio king and now dad of four (including newborn twins!) Penn Badgley is here! We talk You, Gossip Girl, fatherhood, turning 39, and why he’s way more than the internet’s zaddy.He opens up about being a child actor, having complicated relationships with his roles and his real feelings about a gossip girl reboot & astrology.This episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct, or indirect financial interest in products, or services referred to in this episode.Find Saie at sephora.com and every Sephora store across the US and Canada at saiehello.comHead to Columbia.com to get your hands on an Amaze Puff jacket - they're tough on cold, soft on you.Visit CleanSimpleEats.com - https://glnk.io/73q00/NOTSKINNY20 - and use code NOTSKINNY20 at checkout for 20% off your FIRST order PLUS free shipping.Do what I did, order Magnetic Me today to make changing time easier for you and your little one. And these make a great gift for friends or family with babies, too! New customers get 15% off your first order when you go to MagneticMe.com.Get an extra $100 site credit when you sell for the first time on therealreal.com/notskinnyGo to ritual.com/notskinny for 40% off your first month subscription and early access to their Black Friday sale!Produced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a dear media production. Welcome back to the not skinny but not fat podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Hirsch, and I still can't believe that I get to chat with some of my favorite stars on my very own podcast, where you'll feel like you're just talking shit with your best friends in your living room. Hi, guys, happy Tuesday. Welcome to a new episode of Not Skinny but Not Fat. I'm your host, Amanda Hirsch.

What's up, booze? Boo-boos. Remember we say that like my boo, but like B-O-O-O. And then it was like my bow, my before anyone else. No, that was big. Okay, there was my boo. Like, my boo. My boo.

Okay, then there was like my bow, like B-E-A-U. Okay. that I might be making that one up. And then there was my bay before anyone else, which I love. A little passe. A little passe. I'm used to feeling dumb sometimes,

but I felt really dumb next to today's guest who, like, is a genius or something? Who literally barely finished middle school? That's why I asked a few weeks ago, I was like, is school a sham? Because, like, we went, we paid, we studied. and here I am, you know, being a dumb bitch. And our guest today, smartest can be.

Maybe they read more books. Maybe that's what it is. But maybe they read like the smart, smart books. Anyway, today's guests, you guys. Maybe you're guessing. Maybe you're not. Maybe you saw the fucking titled episode and you already know who it is.

And then I do this buildup where it's like, Amanda, we read it says Penn Badgeley on Knott's Game about that. So Penn Badgeley is on today. Oh my God. How fun. I'm literally doing the hair thing that like basic bitches do, like combing through the bottom of my hair,

like Alexis, like David L. Like I'm doing that. So Penn Paggie is here like fan girling AF like high school Amanda could never, would never think this would happen. Like I love to mention to him like I watch Gossip Girl in real time. Like I tuned in to the CW. Like that means something.

Okay. Like I lived the Chuck and Blair. like say those three words that he couldn't say couldn't fucking say i love you what the fuck chuck and i always knew i always knew chuck was british iRL because his american accent was so bad but i don't think i was like looking it up on google like is uh chuck bass in real life british but i knew i knew because he's like blah that and serena's like i should go i should go which a lot of people are saying like Like people will note that she said I have to go a lot, but no, no, it's I should go and the should is shortened to a she. So it's spelled I, apostrophe, S-H-apostrophe, G-O.

I should go. Yep. Look it up. Anyway, Penn Badgley is here, huge fan. I mean, he was Dan Humphrey and Gossip Girl. He was Joe In You. He also hosts a podcast called Pod Crush, which is super popular. And he had come out with a book super recently called Crushmore, which is a personal essay is kind of like the same vibe as his podcast. He also has two new fucking baby twin boys. In total, he has four boys.

We discussed that, obviously. He's deep. He's a kook. He's fun. He's charming. And he is super against astrology. he is Penn Badgley, which I also obviously had to tell him

that his name is super hot, like Penn, whatever. So it's Penn, you guys. Pen is on. Okay, bye, enjoy this episode. Penn Badgley is here, everybody. Let's fucking take it in. Yeah. Let's soak it in.

Take it in. You know what I'm thinking, though? Because we're talking about reachability and the electronics of it all. And like, when I look at you, I would see a guy that's like, fuck that shit. Yeah.

However, you've leaned into the content creation lately. Oh, yeah. You're content king. Well, the last two weeks I have been as online as people believe me to be. Yeah. But usually, I mean, if I say so myself, I think my ratio of like time spent online versus how much I post versus, you know, impact. Yeah.

Pretty great. Oh, so you're saying, oh, I know. I'm saying like I do not spend a lot of time online. What I have is I have two co-hosts, who, who, in a business partner, particularly in NAVA, because we have a production company. So my two co-host, Nav and Sophie, from my podcast and now my co-authors.

But NAVA and I are in touch kind of like all the time about other projects we're working on. So, but between NAVA and Sophie, they'll alert me to maybe a certain trend. They're a huge part of... Oh, they're like Gen Z vibes. I mean, no, because we're squarely millennial. Sophie's younger.

Navve and I are squarely millennial. Sophie's 31. She's cuspy. Okay, that is cuspy. She's cuspy. I have like some sort of Gen Z spirit and maybe my, my, my, like my ability to recognize how chaos is the most useful tool, you know, like just on seriousness and all that. Are people calling you unserious? Yeah, definitely.

Oh, it's like a thing now. Yeah. Well, I'm not. I mean, the funny thing is I think what seemed serious 20 years ago, which was being, I think, essentially as I am now, has it become unsexual. And I think what I mean is I've never been super enthused in the sort of more media-trained fashion. Like, I've never given in interviews what you're typically expected to give. I've always given authentic answers. I've always criticized the roles I've been a part of.

You know what I mean? The projects have been a part of. In some ways, it can be a shadow trait because you can be too cynical and too critical of the things that you do and what you're a part of. At the same time, when you're part of such giant pop projects, you know, we shouldn't just, in terms of pop culture, I don't think we should just, like, lazily acquiesce to what it offers us. And so that's, so that's, so I think that's what I do. A little bit. So you're, you know, a little bit of, it's serious.

It's serious, but it's, you know, it's like, it's like I'm, you know, it's such a serious answer. It is such a serious answer, but you know what I mean? It's like, I've been consistently, I mean, I think I've been consistent. Maybe, maybe I'm horribly wrong. But I think I've been consistent. And 20 years ago, it was like, man, we'd you shut up. And 20 years later, it's like, okay, we're into it. Okay, we like it.

That's, at least that's my read on how it's been. Well, you know who else is kind of famously does that, I feel like is Dakota Johnson. Particularly with, like, Madame Webb. Okay. Any chance she gets. Yeah, yeah. Like, any chance you get. You've got to with Madame.

Yeah, like any chance you get. Wouldn't it be Madam Webb? Yes, I do. I have a pronunciation issue. Madame. No. It's Madame. It's Madame.

Because in France. In French, it would be Madame, right? Monsieur Madame. Well, I guess technically, you were pronouncing correctly. Thank you. Unsurious Penn. First of all, I love that name. I was thinking about it today.

The whole thing, Unsirious Penn or just Penn? Unsirious Penn is your next handle when you, like, open a new TikTok. Because it's just not enough. But Penn, such a hot name. Thank you. Hot. Yeah. I think that's the first.

What? Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying that it's not like I've not been called hot before, but not an account of my name. That's for, I mean, my name, my name sounds, it's brief. It is brief. I was like, is it short for like, penifer? No, penifer. No, it's not. No, it's a, my dad played tennis.

Yeah. And was gripping a pen tennis ball. And my mom said, I think he's about the size of that tennis ball right now. And, and as they have both quipped, it is the only thing they've ever agreed on. And they named you Penn. Just in that moment, yeah. Wow. Tennis ball.

Did you have... Are you being unsurious or serious? No, no, that's serious, but it's an unsurious name. It's so unserious. Yeah, but it sounds serious, right? It sounds like it's after a philosopher, like, from the 18th. Yeah. Did you ever have, like, issues with your...

Did you ever have people in... Yeah, I mean, when I was young, yeah. But, I mean, I think by the time I was 15, I liked its uniqueness. and in the years before that, sure, it was, I was maybe made fun of a bit, but that's, that compared to the, you know, if I think of like constitutional insecurities that I grew up with, no, the name, the name wasn't really one. Right. Because it's like, what hurts you?

Like, for me, it was like, call me ugly, call me fat, then, like, my feelings would be hurt. So what's the deal with the name of this thing? See? That's the deal. That's part of that? I guess that is. Yeah. I know.

Were you like, where am I going? So it's like, not serious, not unserious. You had twins last month. Yeah. Scary for me because I have two boys. Oh, you too. Okay. And you had two boys before these two boys.

Yeah. And I was like, oh, no. Yeah, doubled to the boys. That's insanity. Yeah, it is. Tell me how it's a month in, right? Or month and a half? I think we're coming up on eight weeks this Monday.

Okay. In a few days. How are you feeling? Are you sleeping? Are you? We have a night nurse half the time. Okay, that's nice. So that's merciful.

it's also its own rhythm, you know. I think you find we're hands-on parents and when you hire any help, the kind of support that somebody like a night nurse wants to be is like, they want to do their job, they want to be integral, and they are and they should be. But we kind of, the more kids we have, the more we understand, it's like we really want to be

doing all of the parenting things, and then it's the other stuff that we need help with, you know? So, and it's hard to find that person. It's, whenever you're hiring, like, critical support within your family, particularly child care, like that word child care, you have children, you know. It's like we say child care, like it's an easy, understood thing. Child care is the place and the people who are raising your children when you are not. It's a big old, and it's not easy to find. It's never cheap.

And if it is, you have other things to worry about, you know? So being here is a strange wavelength compared to the wavelength I'm on, you know, the other day. 23 hours per day. Because twins is also like, when you have one, it's like, he's sleeping, I can chill or eat it, you know, but now it's like, two. Two is, I have a few friends with twins. First of all, I can't believe they didn't really say when they were going through it, like, this is insane. Compared to one, it's like one, you know, God bless everybody raising children because it's never easy. One is like zero. I'm like, whenever I'm handling them both well, I'm just like, oh my God, if there was one less. I mean, I don't want one less

because I love them, obviously. But I'm like marveling at the fact that... No, twins is crazy. There's no other ways, no other way about it. And was it, can I ask you but was it a random twin? Yeah, in the sense that it wasn't IVF or it wasn't like, it wasn't the kind of deal where you're like, twins are a high probability? Like all of a sudden they were like two heartbeats, too spontaneous, they call it, and identical. identical, which is also the more rare kind, which is the most spontaneous because, from what I understand,

fraternal is genetic. Right. It can run in a family. This is not that kind. So do they actually look identical? Well, in the very beginning, it was very easy to tell them apart. And it's still for us, easy.

But the bigger they get, the more they grow, they're becoming more and more identical. And you haven't shared, like, their names or anything. No, their names are assigned. sound bite. I'm not going to share them yet. In years to come, I'm sure I will. Yeah. But it's a choice. What do you mean they're a sound bite? Their names, not to be, now I'm like drawing attention to it.

Their names are something. We're gonna be surprised. It's not Mike and Ben. No. No. Not. Yeah. And you have a five-year-old, right? Because I saw that he was born in August 2020. My son was born in August 2020. What date? What day? 10th. 10th? Fifth for me. Yeah. Okay, cool. So like COVID. babies as fuck. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Different time too, right?

Because then we were at home, like, weren't leaving. So you had more time. Yeah, in a way, it was kind of, well, also not twins. Also not twins. I have four children, but one of them is my stepson. And I met him when he was five. He's now the age of my firstborn son. So I never knew zero to five.

And that's an extremely formative time. Your stepson is how old now? A stepson is now. He's almost 17. Oh, whoa. Yeah. Is, does he, are you cringe to him? Are you cool?

Any real parent figure is always going to be cringe to some degree. Yeah. I mean, definitely. But I think there is also this, I mean, I am who I am, and I am not the most uncool step-parent you can have. Okay, you are right. So. But does he get it?

Like, does he get it? Has he watched Gossip Girl, you? Has he watched anything? I watched, I think a few years back, we watched some, no, you know what it is? He and his mom, my wife, they, they, I think while I was, like, on a trip, they watched the first episode of Gossip Girl, the first probably 20 minutes. And then I think he was like, he was young enough that it wasn't inappropriate, but that he was uninterested.

He was just uninterested. He was just kind of like, okay, you know. Yeah. And I think maybe he's definitely getting to the age where, I mean, I still think 16, 17 is young to be watching you because, yeah, I mean, it's, you know. Yeah. The themes that it's dealing with, even with its camp and humor and uns seriousness, to really, I think, grasp it and not be somehow internalizing the thing it's satirizing.

I think you have to be older. I think you have to be like in your 20s personally, you know. Okay. But anyway, he hasn't really seen a lot of this stuff I've done, but he sees my, he sees my TikTok. Your content. No, I'm sorry. I'm telling you. Do we have a TikToker?

So in terms of the kids, what have you learned from having, I mean, you were a dad to a stepson and also the five-year-old. What has really helped you prepare for the twins? Like what? Prepare, yeah. You know, I think what I knew going into it was that I couldn't be prepared. There was nothing, I mean, I don't know what your feeling is on parenthood, but like, I don't think anything really prepares you.

It's true. I think you're ready to be in it or you are not. And then if you're in it, you're in it anyway, and suddenly you're ready. You know what I mean? It's a strange thing where you can't really. Like you got to. They give you the baby and you go home. Like, it's on you.

Yeah. It's not like you suddenly. Yeah. Do you feel what the, the thing that I felt, because usually when everyone in the world tells you something, you're like, is that true? So everyone in the world always says that with your second, like, you're chiller. Like, you're not the crazy overprotective, like listening to the breathing on the monitor. Like, and that's how the second kids.

are usually the ones that play out by themselves, like are more independent, because you kind of change. Do you feel that or are you? Yeah, I see what you're saying. Well, because I, because my secondborn are the twins. Yeah. So it's doubly like,

you're going to have to figure this out one. You know, sorry, go ahead, guys. Like, definitely. I mean, if I can recall COVID newborn phase with the five-year-old, I mean, yeah, so precious. But see, my, now, having parented, like, a lot of different ages, I feel like, you know, newborn, you're not, you're not parenting. You are, you're, you're, you're, your, you're caretaking, you're raising.

You're like, it's hard physical work, but, you know, you're not going to lose your temper, I think, with, with this helpless completely. I mean, and if you are, by the way, you're clearly like struggling with all these things that you're actually struggling with your parents and, like, this, the only, you know, for the first, like, three or four years of my five-year-old's life, I feel like the only times that I would get upset was when I, like, imagined that I should be doing a better job than I am. And that's just, like, this harsh, critical, interparent kind of stuff that we're all wrapping with. So to me, I don't know really what kind of parent, what kind of father I'm going to be to these twins. In fact, because, again, right now it's just like keeping them alive.

Yeah, and the twins. I feel like they're forever going to be the twins. Yeah, there's two of them. There's two of them. They look, you know, they don't even get to look unique. Did you guys have any? Because once you have boys, even I have two boys now. Everyone's like, are you going to try and for a girl?

Like, do you guys get that? Especially you have. People do you say that. And I'm like, I do not want 17 children. So we actually have a friend, my wife's business partner. She works in the birth field, like she's a birth worker in Dula. And her colleague had two sets of twins in a row. That's insane.

They have seven children. Wait, after having kids? Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Is she hilarious Baldwin? She's not. She's hilarious. Yeah.

She is. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, look, once you've had twins, the probability of having twins again goes up. So it's like, if we were to, I mean, why. You wouldn't. Why would we try? But, like, if we were to try.

I mean, we could have twins. Wait, but you're not saying. And they could be boys, by the way. But you're not saying, no. We had six. That's was so, if somebody says you're trying for a girl, I'm like, trying for what? I know.

Trying for who? But how does your wife feel? She feel that, is she? I don't want to call her out, but she was saying, like, a week after childbirth, like, call this postpartum mania. She did say, like, you know, I think we could have a, you know, she didn't, no. And I was like, baby, you do not, you do not want, I'm saying this for you. Yeah.

We, you know. But I even had shades of it. The funny thing about newborns is that you're in this weird kind of like altered state. You don't know what's really going on. You're not rational. You're like, it's just such a different wavelength. Oh, my God. I know.

Are you so tired? I'm not even tired. And you're like coming out with the book. It sounds like you're chill right now. What was this timing about? Does Dom want to, can I call it, Dom? Sure, yeah. Okay, I made a chore it for everybody.

It's such a cool. She's so fucking cool. That whole family. Yeah, yeah. The Kirk's. That's true. They are very. Is she like, why the hellie, would you line?

up your book coming out. Line up. So here's the thing. Yeah. So you don't line that. You cannot change a due date and you cannot change a publishing date. Okay. You can't, you know, yeah.

We agreed to this publishing day like a year and a half ago. Yeah. And then we conceived this child like a year ago, you know. It did occur to me right after. These children. Yeah, these children. At first I was like, children, and I was like, oh, yeah. What's you mean?

You're still digesting this? No, yeah, two of them, no. Yeah. It did occur to me and I told right after we knew she was pregnant, I was like, this is going to pull me out of paternity leave too soon. Yeah. But we were prepared. Yeah.

And she's a jula. So like. Yeah. So there's, this time around, you know, the pandemic kid, we had no support for like a year, you know. Right. Which was in its own way kind of. great because we also weren't pulled out into the world so much.

I mean, I did shoot a season of my show, and there were some things that were pretty intense about it, but there was a specialness to it. I agree, because it puts you kind of like in the trenches where I feel like everyone, even if you can get help, should have an experience of raising their kid if you can. Yeah, like just doing it, like just you guys in it, you know? You know, sometimes we tiptoe around this

for obvious reasons. Like some women have to go back to work after two weeks. Yes. You know, some people, you know, but if we lived in a social system that really supported everybody, really supported everybody,

everybody wants to raise their kids. Yeah. Everybody does. And if there's the, I mean, what we've also come to say, I think is like, whatever makes the mother happiest is best for the children,

which I in large part agree with, again, I think in a social system where that's truly just, truly equal. It truly supports all people. I think any parent is going to be happy as being able to parent their children. Right. I mean, that's what you want. We are, we are hardwired to do that. So, you know, all this kind of negotiation around that, I think it's very simple. If you, the only reasons that you're not able to be there are reasons that are usually out of your control. I agree. We'll be right back after the break. Oh my God, you guys. I just

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That's your ritual.com slash not skinny for 40% off your first month. Don't miss out on the best sale of the season. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose treat cure or prevent any disease. And we're back. Your birthday's coming up. Yeah. It's like, why, I mean, at this point, I'm almost 40.

I have 8 million children and I'm just like, I'm just like, what? No one's going to care. What is a birthday? Like, everyone's going to be like, it's another day of the week. Yeah. But yes, my birthday is coming up. And also it's 39 this year, right? So it's not even the 40.

It's not 40. So you're like, no one's going to care this year. 40 would be an interesting moment. Yeah. Are you nervous about turning 40? No. Are you, like, excited to step into that? Yeah.

Yeah. Zaddy era? I mean, I think I'm already in it if the comments are The comments are Zaddy? On Syria Zaddy Penn. Yeah, I think I got, to be honest, I got Zaddy more like I think the,

here's the word, penultimate season of my show you. So the fourth season, the second and last season, I got a lot of Zaddy. I haven't heard it in a while. I'm bringing it back. It's my cringe, I'm saying. It's my old.

I think cringe is even a bit cringe. Oh, fuck. It is. Are you into astrology? Because you're a Scorpio. I'm not. So here's one. though. I studied it and

there is so much inconsistency within the system that I feel like it's like there's no kind of rhyme or reason to it everybody it's a little irrational. Like you tried I studied it. I could read a natal chart and I'm telling you that the more you

the more you kind of look into what every practitioner, it's just I mean... Wait, are you calling bullshit on all of astrology? Full bullshit? No. because I think that the human spirit, the human mind is so impressive,

is so capable of understanding itself. Even if you use a really flawed and fallacious system, that you can understand things about yourself. But I think the idea that there's only 12 types, for instance, that becomes spiritual eugenics. It's not like really 12 types. Like what about your moon, you're rising? Okay, so 12 multiplied by 12, let's call it 144 types.

Let's just say for variability. Let's just do really quick math. Let's just do really quick math for variability. They're saying there's 144 types. Like, that is even, it's just so reductive. Here's what it is. It's reductive because, by the way, just like, you know, everybody kind of rolls the rise of religion.

First of all, astrology has become the new secular religion. Everybody's just like, you're a what? I mean, that's what bad religious people used to do. By the way. It's so superficial. It's like not even understanding your own system. Tell me something about a Scorpio. Wait, let me tell me something about it.

Are you this defensive because Scorpios get so much shit? See, it's like it's so. Self-perpetuating, like any, like any bullshit system. Like, if you were a good sign, I'm just kidding, you wouldn't feel this like. Uh-huh, yeah. Well, because you know what? I'm the best sign. Scorpio's are dark and sexy.

Who doesn't want to be dark and sexy? Come on. Well, so Ryan Gosling had this interview. I don't know if you saw it where they asked him about his sign. Uh-huh. And he said, like, that he hates saying what his sign. He's a Scorpio. Okay.

Yeah. He hates saying what his sign is. And he was like, people just say, like, better watch out for that tail. Sure. Like, and you get all this shit. So is that why you're secretly against astrology? Yes. Okay.

Do you know your moon and sun and rising all of it? Yeah. Okay. What is it? I have five planets in Scorpio. That's a lot of planets. My sun, my moon. But see, here's the other thing.

The ones that rising is Sagittarius. The ones that... Oh, me too. Sagittarius is a nice one. So you have to keep in mind, like, when you get into the planets, the planets that are real far away, guys, there's millions of people in the same generation as you. Millions upon millions of people. They all have the same Pluto.

They all have the same Uranus. They all have it, y'all. No. The variability really comes from the rising and the houses because of the rotation of the houses. And what's your rising? Nobody knows anything about the houses, y'all, because you don't study it. You practice it, but you don't study it. Guess what?

That's dumb. So it doesn't even matter that astrology is or isn't bullshit. Our practice of it is bullshit. So do not identify with any scorpio. As an astrologer? No, with any Scorpio attributes where you're like, that's so Scorpio. A scorpionic attribute is not unique to astrology. To be penetrating is a human quality.

Yeah. That's not astrology. To look deeply into something, that's a human quality. That's not just astrology. You are right. It's human. So here's why astrology fascinizes us. But do a lot of Scorpios have a penetrative quality?

I don't know, because if we haven't actually done a scientific inquiry into it, is what I'm saying. If you believe in science and modernity, then you have a serious schism in you if you believe in astrology without studying. I just know what the podcast title is going to be. It's going to be all of this. Can you fit all of this into something? No, it's going to be like there's nothing. I feel like the more describes. Scorpio than.

No, no, Scorpio. You is like so unsuriously serious. So, yeah, because. Like, that's really you. I'm telling you. Question is if it's a Scorpio thing. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

No more Scorpio talk. You started this career when you were. I thought you're going to be like, you started this. You started this career when you were a child. You're a child actor. I'm a child. You're a child and a child actor. I'm, yes, I started when I was, I started when I was nine, kind of like

formally, but unprofessionally. Yeah. In community theater and alike. And then I was professional living in L.A. About the time I was 12. You moved with your mom. Yeah. Was that a mom, was your mom seeing something in you?

Did it come from, from you? She was like, he's a Scorpio. I think he's going to be. A performer. Yeah. Yeah. yeah my mom was definitely so well first what she was seeing was my isolation and my kind of like early onset of depression in response to what was happening in our kind of in our family system we had moved

we had no neighbors i had no friends it was not in school for the first while because it was summer we'd moved across the country kind of suddenly and and so she knew that i i did like music i did like to perform just a little bits that i'd done in school so she found a playhouse that was 50 miles away from where we lived at that point on Tiger Mountain in Washington State. Probably don't know it. And then I started doing more kind of like semi-professional kind of amateur theater companies in Washington State in Seattle. So the first opening night of my first play was like, this is incredible.

You know, I want to do this for the rest of my life because it was so not the kind of environment I'd been in. It was really social, really relatively speaking. diverse really like great it was it was stimulating it was like it was like it was like being a part of culture you know yeah and that that was great did either of us could we ever foresee that that was going to become only in a few short years like a serious professional pursuit no but when you moved to l.A that was the intention now yeah so a few years later after so many people saying you should go to L.A you should go to L.A. I mean there's a whole thing you could explore there like

why are so many people saying that what but anyway yeah they that was like the thing And ultimately we went to L.A., really, which, and I do write a whole lot about this in the book, because it's kind of my whole formative time, like starting at 12. Crushmore, out now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, yes. Promote? It is out now.

Already a bestseller. Shut the fuck up. I found out yesterday. I was like, and I kept on being like, so you can leave. I know, right? Yeah. Why am I doing this? I have children at home who are crying.

Yes, we moved to L.A. for two equal reasons. one was because it was really what I wanted to do but part of what really motivated us to go and really made me want to do it and my mom think it was possibly a healthy move was because my parents they were not only divorcing they had they had a

I think what is common but not still like the average it was very toxic it was like a particularly and I was an only child so like it was it was the vibe at home was real tough like a change was necessary You wanted to get out of that state. Yeah, yeah, we all needed a change. And so this, this was, in a way, almost the lowest hanging fruit.

It seems like not just we're getting a divorce and doing all that. It was like, there's a reason to go somewhere else. Yes. And it literally is sunny, you know, like Washington State is rainy. And it's like, so it just, there were many things. Yeah. Many things. And by the way, you find that in, I would say a majority of child

actors there's some really like driving force behind it there's some familial impulse really driving because why otherwise would it seem ever at all good practical desirable healthy to to like uproot a child's life with one of their parents yeah rarely both parents are going to be able to go right move from wherever they live to like to Hollywood and that's not you know but you enrolled in like school like were you doing the normal kids I was doing home school oh wow I didn't I didn't finish middle school. Yeah. I didn't finish middle school and I went to one month of high school. And you're like the smartest person alive. School is such bullshit. No, I mean, listen to this dude on this pod. You know what it is. I didn't, I never learned. I never came to hate learning.

I always love to learn because I never got, I think, that very institutionalized thing, not long enough, you know. So if your kids want to drop out of school? If my kids want to drop out of Yeah. Well, okay, so my stepson, we actually tried to move out of the city for his first year of high school. We thought New York City high school way too intense, way too much of a thing. Ever seen gossip girl? It's just like that, guys.

It's all like that. Yeah. It's all like that. But it is a thing. Everybody knows. I mean, in New York City, like, even you're going to public school, whatever you're doing. It's crazy, yeah. But for a number of factors, it seemed like, all right, he might actually flourish here.

And I got to say he is. He is. He's really, he's going to a very, like, intense, serious school. He's in his 11th grade year. So he's, what we talk about now is, like, he might be in the hardest year of his entire academic career, no matter where he goes, because he's in such a, like, a rigorous, good school. Oh, wow. Oh, intense. Yeah. And you're like, well, I didn't finish middle school. Right, right. And so, but he's flourishing. And I think he needed that. So we're going to jump a little bit. Yeah, let's keep talking about the institutional. Yeah. No, that's a separate pod. So 11. you're starting to act in L.A., let's jump on over to 20 when you get Gigi. Yeah.

When you get Gossip Girl. Go more girls. When you get Gossip Girl. Yeah. One of my favorite shows of all time. Okay. Sorry. No apologies necessary.

Okay. You should be sorry for astrology. You do not have to be sorry. You do not have to be sorry for gossip girl. I'm that, you guys, basic as they come. Astrology, gossip girl. You know, I feel like a lot of people say this. I was watching in real time.

because there's so many people re-watching and Gen Z jumping on. But, like, we're talking about, like, living it. Like, living in that moment of watching it and loving it. So I heard that you didn't want it at first. Didn't want to take the role? Like much things in my life, yes. I kind of vibe with that, though. That's so me.

Yeah. What is that? Is it a Scorpio thing? I'm just kidding. Probably, yeah. What is it? Like, what was it about Gossip World specifically that you didn't want to take it? Okay.

Well, the real answer is that I had been doing it for nearly a decade, right? Right. I had been doing it for a decade. I'd been in L.A. for eight years. I'd been working already for eight years at 20 years old and a young 20. I'd, like, just turned 20. I was tired of it. I had not been to school, college.

I had gotten into USC years earlier, but never went because I'd been on a show. You know, I felt like I had read hundreds of television scripts. They all had the same or very similar voices. I really wanted to get a regular job because I was just about to need to, you know, for the first time. Like, I had to be, I had been financially independent for many years. It was kind of supporting my parents on and off when they needed it. And then I finally was like, all right, I'm going to have to get, you know, a real job.

Okay, so probably a waiter. Maybe I entertained the idea of like delivering alcohol to like the homes in the hills because that was like before delivery, before you could get everything delivered. It was like this sort of novel, it was like you make good tips. Like a premium service. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was something that my mom suggested. I remember being like, that's an idea.

And then you could meet people and go into their homes and network. Yeah. I mean, it was really like, you know, I was, again, a young 20 and I was like, I was willing to try a number of things and excited about that opportunity because I knew how strange and unusual the bubble I'd grown up in was, but as a Scorpio, I love to pop that bubble. You know what I'm saying? And I also really wanted to play music. Music had always been my first passion.

I never had the time to actually kind of like really workshop it, work on it. I really wanted to do that. And then thinking, so there used to be a thing called pilot season. I guess there is still a pilot season now, but streamers have changed just the rhythm of everything. But it used to be big. Like pilot season was, you know, if unless you are just like film, film, film, and only film, and I don't know who's really able to start that way, at least in the early 2000s, because you've got to work. that pilot season, which always starts like January, February-ish,

at least you're getting scripts then. I got the script for Breaking Bad. To be Jesse? Yeah. And that script I read, and I was going into this pilot season being like, I told my agent, like, I don't want to go out on anything. And I had done it long enough that they had to respect that. They were like, yeah, fair.

But they did send me that. They sent me that. I think they were like, we're going to send you a few things. And I got the script for Breaking Bad, and I was like, that is to that day it was by far in a way the best and most compelling television script I'd ever read it had a different voice

it really did it had a different quality to it so I went out on that it actually ended up being me and Aaron Paul who tested for it and of you know and I tell this not as like a you know it's obviously he was meant for it great awesome so happy that didn't happen for me like all good

but I you are happy it didn't happen for you Yeah, I mean, well, also, it's a complete fantasy. Who knows? Like, if I lived in New Mexico for... Right, it would have been a different parallel universe. Yeah, like, I actually don't wish that it happened. But the project was clearly amazing. I knew it was like, this is different.

This is the beginning of something different. And, yeah, I tested with Aaron Paul. One of three auditions ever that I thought I'm going to get this. And the other two I did get. So, you know, I went on the audition for Breaking Bad rather than network test and really thought, like, I think I'm going to get that. And I didn't. And I wasn't even crestfallen.

I was like, okay, so I'm done with TV. I really don't want to do TV, you know. And I think a few weeks later, soon after the creators of Gossip Girl, one of the co-creators, Stephanie Savage, emailed me with the script and said, we have a role here for you that we think you would like because I had done a show with her a few years prior. I mean, I've been working, you know, a while. So was it an offer only?

it was yeah she was offering it to me she was offering it to me I mean definitely offering it to me once and she even said the words I think you will have feel that you have done this already

which is to play the sensitive like awkward nice guy but we really think you're this guy and I read it and I my response was essentially

like thank you so much you're right I do feel as though I've done this and I'm not really interested and I wish you very well. And it was, that was that. Like, it was a very, it was kind of like, I don't think they're on her part.

I have no idea what she thought then. But what were you thinking? Were you thinking like? I think it was clear to me. I didn't, I wasn't interested because I wasn't interested. You just weren't, and that was important to you to be interested in the project. Yeah.

Because a lot of actors. Because what you do is you sign your life away for at least six years, possibly more. Yeah. I mean, you know, a television contract is, yeah, it's a big commitment. So, you know, I just was like, I really want to explore music. I want to work and film more.

Yeah, thank you, but no, thank you. We'll be right back after the break. You guys know that I'm the kind of makeup girl that actually makes sense. Like makeup that makes sense. Like, why are we still using heavy cakey foundation in 2025, like when there is say? Okay. Say is a clean makeup brand that manages to make you look like yourself, just like better. just like the Paris filter, okay?

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not skinny to get $25 off. Start shopping now at the realreel.com slash not skinny. You guys, I'm coming in hot from the studio. We were just saying it's so cold in studio today. That's why I'm wearing my Columbia Amaze Puff, hooded jacket. This is the waist length one, so it gives a little bit of cropped vibes, and I love this color.

This color is tobacco. They also have, like, more metallic colors if you're into that vibe. I'm kind of into this, like, brown. shade this fall. This is my new color this fall. Mark my words. It's going to be like the color. Mark my words. Like I said, it comes in three different length. It comes in a waist length, a mid and a long, kind of loving the waist length because when I stand up, it does give kind of cropped. Also, you know, I love a little thumbhole situation. I also love how not only is it so cozy, warm, and comfortable, it's also chic. And that's important. And that's important.

because I don't know if you guys remember, Law Roach was on my pod and he was like getting the ick from winter coats. And he was like, people think that you could just like wear winter coats and look ugly to be warm. Not the case. With this, a maize puff hooded jacket,

you could do both. You could look cute and you could be warm and cozy and comfortable. Also, it's obviously water resistant. And this hood that we like, It can come off if you don't want it, you guys. It's removable, which I love that. Sometimes you just want, like, a cropped jacket look without a hood. Literally, this feels like I'm, like, wearing a hug.

I'm obsessed with it. I'm telling you guys, the Amaze Puff Hooded jacket is the one that you need this winter season. Head to Columbia.com to get your Amazepf hooded jacket. They're tough and cold, soft on you. And we're back. Was there a voice? in your head saying this might like catapult me. Am I?

Well, it wasn't my voice. It ended up being my, my manager's voice because two months go by, she comes back. At that point, they hadn't cast anybody. Once they'd cast everybody except for Dan, they came back and we're like, we haven't, you know, I don't know how many people they saw. I don't know how hard they looked, but they were like, we, I don't, maybe the whole time they're like, we'll get them, just wait. I don't know, I don't know.

But they, they came back and we're like, we really think you're the guy. really reconsider this. And at this point, my manager and agent took a different position before they were very accepting and then they were like, you know, this could be huge.

That's what it's positioned to be. This is the kind of thing that you could do, as you say, to catapult. Now, keep in mind, though, it's hard to get on a show like that. It's harder to get on a show and then get off a show like that.

It's hard to actually continue a career. You know, you think of a giant, giant project like that. Right. I mean, you guys think about like, vampire diaries, Yeah, and you think of also the pedigree. It's like, it's, I think it's, it's a great writer's medium.

You know, writers love that, that, that form, that kind of show. It's not an actor's show. You know, I mean, that shouldn't be a controversial thing to say. In terms of, like, what do you mean, like showing your abilities? It's not, I think if anything, you know, and I say this with compassion for sensitivity, the whole system. I think, if anything, past the, like, second season, you start developing bad habits on a show like that as an actor, you know? Like what?

You know, you're just, you can be careless with things. You're not going to, you know, you're just not bringing your A game. And here's why. It doesn't matter if it's the best of an Emmy winning show or something that's on Stars. Sorry, Stars, but, you know, it's, or To Be. Sorry, To Be. Sorry, too, B. Next I'm going to be in Stars.

Sorry, Roku. No, I'm just kidding. You know, think about it this way. You got six series regulars on a show like that, or let's say four, four to six. What is a show like that about? It's about their relationships. What does a show need to do? It needs to highlight conflict and drama and then resolve it.

So what it does is it necessarily puts all the series regulars in constant tension and conflict with one another, but they have to resolve in order to sort of like stay together so that the show can keep going. but once you've done one kind of conflict and resolution, you have to do another. Yeah. So they keep doing worse and worse things to each other. And the only reason they ultimately are able to resolve it is because the show is still going.

And so it actually gets to the point where everybody has like fucked each other and fucked over each other in the same way. It's just like it becomes this like this nonsensical knot of relationships that if there was any shred of reality to it, it'd be like, I'm done. I'm, I'm extricating myself from the social circle. Yeah.

Like, anybody would, but you say, so I'm just saying, like, it's, it's, it is, this is not unique to gossip girl. It's not unique to, it's, it's a, it's a facet of television. But wouldn't you just say like, fuck it, it's entertaining the end of the day? Yeah, if you're watching it, you can say. If you're watching it, right. If you're spending 14 hours a day, five days a week, 10 months a year, it's like, I'm devoting my life to this.

So were you dying for it to end? I wasn't dying for it end. I was happy for its end. You're right when it ended. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like... Do you like how it ended?

Not only that you were gossip girl, but there were some other... It's like, what some of them are? Huh? What are some of those things? Like, you got married, right? Oh, yeah. I mean, see, that happened like right in the last 30 seconds. I know.

And I remember, like, I remember the feelings of being like, wait, what? Like, I remember the ending. I don't know if I would call it disappointing then. I think it was more like, wait. Where did we go? Well, here's also my other thing about, like, sorry, it's too practical. It's seriously unserious. Like, a show like that is never about how it ends.

Correct. It's always about how it keeps going. It can't end. It can't end in a way that is satisfying or sensible to anybody. Do people ask you about reboots? Yeah. And what do you say? I mean, by what I've said, I think it's probably pretty clear what I think about a reboot.

What were one of your favorite, like, guest stars? I saw Hillary Dutt, the clip popped up for me today. She was a guy. Sorry, she actually, I forget, but she had a real, she was in for like a whole season, I think. She was in there a lot. That was nice. I did really like working with her. I think actually my, just as a thing, Lady Gaga was, you know, she was on. And from what I recall, it was a scene with me and Leighton. I don't know who else of the main cast was in a bunch of that, like, storyline. I don't remember at all why she's in the show, not remotely. I have, I know where we were shooting. That's all I can recall. And I just remember meeting her. And this was before she'd had a hit. So the song that had not come out yet was playing over and over

for the playback when they were shooting her scene. Was it, was it poker phase? It must have been if it was the first. What was her first song? I think it was poker face. Or just dance. Gonna be okay. I think it was

bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop. Okay, good, that was. Yeah, because that was, and I was like, what is this song? I mean, it's such a bob. And it was so, you know, it was such an earworm, having not heard it anywhere else.

I remember being like, okay, this is a thing. And then she, she, you know, I mean, she's amazing. So I think, I think that has an interesting, like, gem quality to it. What was it like for you living in New York for six years? Amazing. I mean, that was really the reason why I did it. Yeah, because it wasn't in like a, I mean, no shade to New Mexico. We're shading a lot of things today.

But like. Of the, of the news. Yeah, of the news. It's a good new. It was a good new. Would you ever do like a rewatch? Of Gossip Girl. Yeah.

You know. You could troll it. Do you mean like the whole? I mean, people do like rewatch pods. It's a whole. Oh, we watch pod. I mean, you're a pod guy. Yeah, I suppose I haven't worked in a few years and I am paying my mortgage, I guess.

That is such a good fallback. Yeah, I have fallbacks. Nobody wants to fallback, but I do have some fallbacks. He has some fallbacks. So, I mean, you did, you had a pretty great career up until now. Thank you. I kind of character is that everyone will remember their name. No one will forget Dan Humphrey.

They're easy names, Joe and Dan. Not like fan Not like fan Joe and Dan How did you feel when Joe came to an end When you came to an end Similarly, it was time

You know, it was time It was definitely time You know what I Because that character has to come to To an end like In some kind of proper way Yeah Because you can't

I think it's fun and stuff And it does have camp to it But it deals with such themes if you really examine them Are like they're important You know what I mean I'm not saying the show was important But I'm saying

what it's about is really important to handle with some real sense of justice and truth. And, you know what I mean? So that character had to come to an end before it completely jumped a shark. And I think we did that. I think we, I think we ended it kind of in the only way that you could.

Who would win in a fight, Joe or Dan? Or Dan? I mean, I mean. Could Dan surprise us? know? No. No. No. Well, if they have the exact same physical makeup, then I don't know, maybe it would be fine because it's not like Joe's Dexter. Look how deep you are, like the exact same physical makeup. Yeah. He's too deep for us. You know what I mean? It's just a bunch of words to say if they're the same. If they were the same. And they are the same. So I don't know.

I'm always, I'm the least fun answerer of fantastical questions. I mean, I guess it would be Joe, But maybe, I mean, Dan punched. See, Joe would never, I feel like Joe is actually, technically speaking, way more of a loner and way nerdier than Dan. Yeah. Dan, I was thicker than, like, you think early season gossip girl, I was like a little bit thicker and, like, had my short hair and was like, kind of talking like this, and, and, and he was angry.

He punched people, like. He was a little angry. Kind of right from the jump, whereas Joe waits and waits and waits, he would let somebody punch him and then like stab him in the back. So are you changing your answer? I think Joe is actually, technically he's more spineless. Even though everybody thinks of him as a strong dude, he's really spine. He's completely spineless.

Also, he's spineless maybe with other dudes. Like he has more. Exactly. He's real spineless. Like with women, it's different. So it's like, so here's the thing. Here's my answer. I think Dan would win in a fight, but then Joe would kill him. He would kill him in a real spineless way.

But Joe would kill him. He'd like, he'd trick him and kill him. Dan and Joe, you guys, Ben Badley is here. He has a new book coming out. It's out. It's out. Crushmore.

It's a bestseller. You don't need to get it. Get it. So what, you started this pod. Yeah. What made you even start a pod? Like you're an actor. What got you to start this pod?

Maybe, maybe a bad decision. That's a good name for a pod too. Thank you. Started it. The idea came about a few months into the pandemic from my business partner in Ava. Okay. We were forming a company. We were like, we were, yeah, the idea came from her.

Originally, we were narrating story. I was narrating real stories from real people who had sent them in. So that was something that we did as part of the first season. I really wanted to help with the narration initially. Of course, you involve anybody who was of my, like, celebrity stature immediately, like, oh, it's Penn Badgley's podcast. So we knew that I would have to be incorporated more than just narration. That doesn't really make sense.

Am I a host? So then, you know, I became a host. And, yeah, we just started asking people I knew to come on. Every episode of the podcast, we ask whoever our guest is from Ariana Grande to Conan O'Brien, to Bedibad, Aberde, ivory, to, not name dropping or anything. I'm name heaving. Yeah. What do you ask them?

Who were you at 12 years old? Wow. And so we start, the book starts with me at 12 years old landing at LAX in 1999, 1999. 19. I'm singing for the third time. Is that a song? That's Miley Cyrus. Okay. Yeah. See what I mean? I don't know. I know so little about culture. I just make it. It's a flex, right? It's such a flex. Like, I don't scroll. I just create. I don't scroll. I just, yeah. So when I first moved to Los Angeles to become an actor, I still was transitioning out of my deep passion. and love for music, which has always sustained, but which I was toying with becoming professional in. Part of that, somehow when people move to L.A., everybody toys with the idea of dancing.

Not professionally, but it's a thing. It's a thing that, like, there was this studio called Millennium. Oh, I know. Yeah. Oh, I know. Everybody went. I don't know really what that is. Like, plenty of people who didn't dance would go and try.

But see, I loved to dance. I loved to dance. Can you dance? And I loved hip-hop. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I can't. It's uncomfortable to dance on command, so I certainly won't do it here. But, you know, I do it a bit on TikTok, but even in a way that's not really, like, but I really loved to dance. And I love, and I, and R&B was my music.

Like, it was not, I took it very seriously. Okay, save the laws dance. Right. And so I would go to these hip-hop classes and basically the first essay is tracing my, my love of, my serious love of dance and, and music, and R&B music. Wow. And how that, you know, started from such an early age. But then I went through a period where I was really uncomfortable with dancing.

And then I, and then weirdly have reclaimed a little bit of it, barely some, you know, in this strange way on TikTok. And so just kind of trick, it's really using this, this vehicle of like dance as a personal examination of this North Star that we all should have, which is play, you know, play and expression. We all need to play. We all need to express ourselves. That's a healthy human thing. It is true. And so like, and for me, dance has always been a way to access that. And when I know that I'm uncomfortable to dance, we're afraid to dance, there's obviously something obscuring that North Star. And so no, you know, so in some way dance is a sign of health, I think for all people,

but I'll go ahead and just say me. And so I just kind of use that as a... And there's another essay where you talk about like a really crazy sex scene that you had to do by yourself and you... That's true, yes. So that essay is called In Camera where I'm sort of examining my relationship to fame

and therefore the camera, the ad the like sort of the advent of the camera in my life, you know? And that's... I mean, what I'm doing in all of them is like it's like I'm seeing a constellation of memories and kind of stringing them together And so in that first essay, it's dance. In that essay, the one when I talk about this sex scene

where I'm actually just my partner is the camera because my scene partner isn't able to be there because the camera has to be real close. And you're looking straight into it. Yeah, but that's the sort of final scene I describe in the essay, but the whole thing is just about my relationship to the camera, which is also a cultural thing. I mean, we all have relationship to the camera.

The camera has changed us. Think about it. Think about what Gossip Girl, right? That is an out-of-touch sentiment now because here's what everybody did. They turned it around and put the camera on themselves. Like Gossip Girl, the whole point was that she was, she was like, she. The hellie!

Have you not accepted the truth? I'm playing the game here. Okay. Gossip Girl, she was like outing people. Now people out themselves. You know what I mean? You're so right. Like what Gossip Girl was a sign of and its and its hugeness was that nobody saw the

selfie coming. Nobody saw this one movement coming. And that has changed us. You know, and that's our relationship to the camera. So like experiment to actually go back, watch Gossip Girl just to see if you can find any moment. With a selfie?

With a fucking selfie. You can't do a selfie with a Blackberry. You can't, huh? Yeah, deep. Damn! This man's a writer. You think it's not deep? It is deep, son.

is deep. That was our age, right? When you used to say, son. I've noticed that to my little ones, I've been saying my son. My son. Could you believe that Dan Humphrey? Would become a father? Of 17. 17 children.

It's crazy. Well, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. Everybody go check out Crushmore. Yeah. So much good shit in it. Yeah. Your pod, pod crushed.

Pod crushed. It's crushing it. It's crushing it. Thanks again. Thank you. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of Notskini. but not fat. Follow me on Instagram at Not skinny but not fat.

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