Not Skinny But Not Fat - Sarah Shahi: Divorce, Letting Go of Perfect & Starting Over

Episode Date: February 24, 2026

Sarah Shahi is back on the pod! This time in the wake of her new book Life Is Lifey. After her first appearance on the pod in 2023, she told me she wanted to write a book, so watching this all come to life has been wild (I even wrote the blurb and hosted her book signing !). We talk about the pushback she got from her own team, how crazy it is that  her own life imitated her  art, and how playing Billie on Sex/Life actually changed her real life.We also get into life after divorce, navigating that season, her breakup with Sex/Life co-star Adam Demos, dating in your 40s, red flags, confidence, her love for blow jobs, and starting over when life gets… lifey.This episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct, or indirect financial interest in products, or services referred to in this episode.For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping when you visit Nutrafol.com and enter promo code NOTSKINNY10To explore coverage, visit ASPCApetinsurance.com/NOTSKINNYAs a special offer for our listeners, good wipes is giving you your first pack for FREE! Buy any package in store, text them your receipt, and get reimbursed almost immediately. For more details, head to goodwipes.com/NOTSKINNYGo to quince.com/notskinny for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Buy any 2 cans of Olipop in store and we'll pay you back for one at drinkolipop.com/NOTSKINNYHome Chef is offering my listeners 50% off and free shipping for your first box PLUS free dessert for life! Go to homechef.com/notskinnyProduced by Dear MediaSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The following podcast is a dear media production. Welcome back to the not skinny but not fat podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Hirsch, and I still can't believe that I get to chat with some of my favorite stars on my very own podcast where you'll feel like you're just talking shit with your best friends in your living room. Hey, hey, hey, happy Tuesday or whatever day that you are listening. Hope everyone's doing well. Welcome back to Not Skinny but Not Fat.

What is new? What is new? So season finale, I mean, no, sorry, series finale of Tell Me Lies. Oh, my God. I have to be honest, I think this episode was the best episode of the entire season. And I even said that to Megan Oppenheimer, the creator and showrunner. So as some of you know, I did go and watch the finale with her at her house with some of the cast and her husband who's also on the show. And year of yes, year of yes, baby.

And first of all, it was so fun to watch it with people because I felt like we were kind of like in a movie theater. like we were cracking up and like, oh no, no, she will, wow, wow, wow. So there were just like vibes and also, obviously, to be there with Megan and like she created it. And it was like, she knew it was going to happen, obviously. So I would be like, wait, no, it's this. And I could ask down questions. Like, wait, so Breed sent the tape. But anyway, I thought it was so good.

I thought it was the best episode of the season. It really like brought everything together for me. and I feel like everything tied up perfectly. I know people are left with a lot of questions, which like maybe somehow I need to like have Megan answer them in some way. Like we'll see. We'll see what I can do. Okay.

But it just is it's an end of an era for me. Like I understand. I talk to her also like, you know, there's a reason it's ending. They're ready. It's ready like, you know, all the things. But for me, it's like an end of an era because I won't forget like my journey with it. And how, you know, from the beginning, I remember it came out and people were like, ugh, it's just like a stupid like college show.

And then it was like, no, no, no, no, no. It's so good. And people were like, really? Is it so bad? Like, I don't remember. I remember there was some hesitancy from people to like watch it at the beginning. And I was a big proponent of it. So I felt very like part of it from the beginning.

Like, just like I felt some like emotional attachment to it in a way. Not not necessarily like the Stephen and. Lucy of it, but the emotional attachment to the actual show, like, happy when it got new seasons, like happy for its success, obviously, and everything like that. So that's an end of an era for me because I was really like an early adopter of Tell Me Lies and like everyone knows it. So I loved how Lucy was laughing at the end and Stevens fucking whack-a-doodle speech. A lot of people were wondering if Lucy was like tricking him because Diana had said make him think he's winning and then he'll leave you alone. But I don't know. At the same time, she went to like get coffees,

you know? So it didn't seem like he was like like she was faking it. You know what I mean? What's taken up, tell me the light spot right now is love story, the Carolyn Besat and JFK Jr. show. Like, I only watched the first episode, you guys, but when I tell you, I was just, like, smiling to the screen. Like, first of all, of course, the, like, gorgeousness of the actors, the New York City, you know, background of it all, the 90s of it all, like, love, giving more of all of those things. And I was just captivated and enamored is really the word. So highly recommend, can't wait to keep watching it. Of course, I could only watch one episode last night because my kids somehow both only went to sleep by 10 p.m. Then I had an hour to myself. And then by the time I,

you know, was in bed, it was like midnight. And then it was like until I fell asleep. And then I woke up with like sweats. Like I don't know what this is. Oh. Anyway, let's get into today's episode. Today's episode, I'm so excited about it because I don't have a repeat guest unless like I love the guest so much. And unless there was like so much more new to say. And both of those things are true for today's guest, Sarah Shahi. So I had Sarah on, I think, 2022, I believe. And it was funny because I remember was after her ex-husband, Steve Howey came on. And I had Steve Howey for something, but he was on Shameless.

I was a huge fan of Shameless. And then a little while after, I was like watching sex life and connecting the dots. And then Sarah and I started following each other. And I was like, wait, is it weird that I had her ex? Like I started dramatizing in my mind. I'm like, I feel bad I had her ex. Like I was asking him about, you know, his penis and shameless. And we started talking and she was so kind and so sweet and so fun and so down to come on the pod.

So we did. And she was so open on that first pot of hours that she even got in a little bit of trouble. She spoke about sex life. Season two, she kind of criticized it. So it got some press and Netflix was really upset that she was saying, like if you're usually when you're on the show, you are media trained to not say that like you're not a fan of things that the show did, you know? and especially Netflix. But she just was such an open book

and so vulnerable and so down and so cool that she did. Obviously, like, I hope she didn't get in trouble, but that did happen. Now she's on Hulu's Paradise. So fuck you, Netflix. I'm just going to not fucking in that way. But anyway, she is working.

She is good. She's beautiful. She is thriving. She is now an author. She wrote a book called Life is Lifey where she gives, like, the girlies, some life advice and some help to guide you through your 20s,

or your 30s or your 40s or your 50s or wherever you are in your life, you need to like accept change, embrace the chaos and explore that messy middle. And I was honored. She asked me to not only write a blur for the book, but also she referenced, I think, Kalma in the book. And she's one of us. And I moderated her book event at the Strand practically like, I'm a book event moderator now.

That's my name. Also, it's not talking about my new love for audiobooks. We need to discuss that. in another on another pod. But anyway, so Sarah Shahy's back. We have so much to go through. I really love this book. And we talk about the different elements of it,

from divorce to new relationships, what happened with that new relationship, as well as some childhood stuff. But also, and most importantly, like, I just find her perspective so unique. And really that makes you think. It makes you, like, advice that you want to take

and that sounds like it's coming from, a reliable source, you know, that gets it. Anyway, here's Sarah. How was it after? It was good. The kids were starving. No, I'm obsessed with them. I'm still, I can't stop thinking about them.

Oh, you're so sweet. Thank you. And I don't say this about everyone, by the way. I don't think that I like, like all children. Yeah. That's not my vibe. Yeah, I get it. You like your children, but you like other people's children.

Other kids, I'm usually like they're so annoying. Mine are so much better, you know, like usually. Of course. And then yours just made such a, like, Good impression. They're like, I walk in there and be like, are you doing the book with mom? Oh. Yes.

Oh, hi. I'm Knox. I've, we're twins, just like playing games together, the most like, like charade kind of game. Yeah, we play a lot of games. They're so fucking cute. Oh, thank you. Thanks, honey. No, no, I like him.

I like him. I'll keep them. I'll keep them. They can stay. I love being in this. studio. And how could you believe? I was trying to figure out why we did Zoom last time.

Well, I was in Georgia. Was it COVID? Yes. Everything was under COVID. And I think you were doing it in your, like, apartment. I was doing it in my apartment. And I remember you coming on with, like, glasses and, like, sweats. And, like, literally curled up, like, with a tea.

Yeah, probably. And, like, pajamas. Yeah, always. Yeah. And I loved it so much. I got in trouble. so much that I can't wear pajamas on camera that much anymore. I have to be like Julian Schnabel.

Wait, you got in trouble for real? And then I can. Well, like, just it's looked down upon. It's just like. To do your interviews, not. Not like dressed a certain way or just like whatever. You know how it goes. But like, yeah.

Well, I don't know how it goes. You look amazing all the time. So it's like, and you, I love to look like. I know you said, by the way, in your book. Yeah. Which part of the reason is starting. We started, babe. Oh, we did.

Like, that you're here today. Yeah. Life is lifey. Life is life. When is it? Book drop, first of all. It dropped like yesterday. Oh, it dropped.

It's like out. It's out in the world. Out in the world. That's so exciting. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited. I'm nervous.

There's a lot of emotions happening like all at once about it because it's out. And I want to make this about me a little bit. Go for it. First of all, that I knew about it before it happened. Yes, you did. Because you had told me that you're trying to make this happen. And I said this yesterday because I moderated the book event. That's right.

The book signing. The book signing. And I said, I couldn't believe that when you first told me about this after we had done the pod and after sex life blew up and all of that, that you were trying to pitch this. And at first it wasn't biting. Yeah. It was biting. And I was like, whoa, wait.

And you're telling them that like you were influenced kind of by Billy and your life kind of took a similar, and you were like, yeah, and you were dating your coasts. Like, there were so many things for anyone to be like. There were so many parallels, and it's not like one person watched sex life. Like, it was like 170 million people watched sex life. So I was like, this has got to resonate in some market, right? Like, someone's going to want to know, like, my story. But yeah, I had a team at the time who they, I think they just wanted me to stick to acting because it paid more.

And, you know, writing a book is truly like a labor of love. Like, it takes a while. There's not a lot, there's not any money up front. And then we'll see if I make anything from it. But like, you don't do it for the money. That's for damn sure, you know? And so, but yeah, they were just like, just wait till you're 80, write a memoir and stick to acting. Like something in you, like, you were passionate about this.

You're like, I need to do that. Like, what was motivating? So money wasn't a motivator. Yeah. What was the motivating factor? It was, what was motivating for me to write the book is it was like, you know, as woo-woo as this might sound, like it was my soul. Like, I, I, you know, I'm a mother. I have three children.

I was married for a long time. I got divorced. I had to be brave enough to let go of so many things that, like, society told me I should be happy to keep. you know, that I should be so lucky to be in the position that I was in, but it wasn't working for me. And then at the same time, I had to be brave enough to welcome in all these new things that were happening to me that were also kind of scary. And there was a lot of pain in that. There's a lot of transformation in that. And I was like, my pain, it has to go somewhere. It can't stay inside me, you know? And I just was like, I have to get this out because if I can affect one, one, one, positively or like help them find the courage to go after the life that they feel like they're meant to have, then it wasn't in vain. So it was, it truly was like a self-motivating thing that I was like, I have got to get this out there. It was very altruistic, you know, there aren't too many moments in my life where I feel like I felt like that, but this was one of them. It's like,

I told you this yesterday also that I interview a lot of people and you really struck me as like one of the more open, you know, and vulnerable and honest people that I interviewed. So this makes sense. But also, like, even divorce alone, I feel like especially for actors, it's like a blip. Like, I got divorced. Like, part of my story, you know? Yeah. It's so common in the world and it's so common in Hollywood, especially two actors, which

you and your ex were. Yeah. And I feel like for you, you're really giving it its deserving place of like, this is a huge, thing to go through. Yeah. And this really impacted my life in the trajectory, whereas, again, I feel like it's like a blip, at least on the outside to, like, a lot of people, especially public-facing people.

Yeah. But it's like, yeah, I got divorced and we're co-parent and everything's up. Yeah. And I met someone new and it's all amazing. And we're just as like this happy family. Yeah. No, it, you know, the other thing I feel, it's like, okay, we're here for such a short amount of time, right?

It's like, we blink and it's done. And at the end of the day, it's like, we're all here just to walk each other home. So I feel like if I don't take my experience and share it in an open way, then I'm not doing my part in terms of like whether it's with people or the sisterhood or just, I don't know. Like I just, I've always, I've just felt like we're all in this together, this thing called life, right?

And so if I don't share my story, then I'm not living up to my full potential in some way. But I think that the way you're telling it and like I said, the divorce part, is giving like context and giving like this isn't easy. It's hard. Even if Hollywood can make it seem that way or movies or whatever. Like it isn't a, okay, I decided like even if you know it could take you another however many years. Yeah. So I feel like that's really important because I feel like people sometimes don't see that presented to them. Yeah, you're right. And also I feel like nobody gets married planning their divorce.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And so what's like when when that moment happens, and I speak purely just for myself, is your whole world really is turned upside down. And reality as you know it is like done and you have to reinvent yourself and reinvent your life. And I was doing it at 40. You know, my tits were not as high as they used to be. So that's like that really takes a certain amount of courage. But like it was, yeah, like you said, like it really does deserve its moment because for the most part of it. is kind of glossed over. Like, I feel like people don't look at their pain enough. Like, not that you have to, like, dwell in your pain and, like, splash around in it like you're like a kid at a kiddie pool, but, like, at the same time, pain can be some of our, our greatest teachers, you know, and pain is a beautiful thing, but we're so used to really running away from it. In the book, you said that you muster up the courage to say that line was like, I love me more or like I'm choosing me kind of vibe.

Yeah, because I think, you know, when you're in a marriage and you're, you do have children, you will always love the other person. They will always have a place in your heart. But for me, especially as somebody who was a people pleaser, my entire life, I was always putting other people first. And it was easy for me to silence my own needs than it was for me to speak up and say, this isn't working for me. But I finally got to a moment in my life where I was like, I have swallowed myself in my own needs for so long. I can't do that anymore. So it's like, yes, Like, I do love you, but I love myself more. That was a big moment.

And the catalyst is that, was the catalyst for that, Billy from sex life? The catalyst was Billy. You know, I mean, you know, divorce is never something that happens overnight, you know? But she definitely was, she pushed it for sure. I gathered strength in her, unlike any character. I had ever played, you know, and it was just such an interesting moment in my life where the stars took over in a way that was really divine. And I was along for the ride. Like I was not in control of anything that was happening. And I felt like I was being possessed by this character, Billy. And I was

finally having the guts to say and do all the things that I wanted to do for years before. Were people in your life calling you crazy? Like, Sarah, you're not Billy. Like, what are you doing? Oh, yeah. Like, this is in real life. This is a fantasy. Like, what were your close friends saying? I lost friends from it. You know, it's like, I, friends that were very deeply in the know were like, what are you doing? You know, people that had my back up until the moment that I did get the divorce dropped me because I, you know, I, you know, I always think, Amanda, I'm like, I'm not a judgmental person. And I'm always somebody who like, if someone's going through something, kind of like I do in the book, it's like I want to, I won't give them my opinion, but I want them to, like I'll ask them a series of questions about how do you feel? How is this? What if this happens? What if that's happens? So that would they come to their own conclusions. But the amount of judgment I got from getting the divorce from people who honestly were just unhappy in their own relationships. And they decided to stick it out and they thought I should do the same.

You know? Yes. And it's like, that's not what we're here for. Like, we're here to have fun and be happy. And why can't I do that? Yeah. I have the right to be happy. Everybody has the right to be happy. Yeah. I think that's why I have this thing even, you know, when I cover like pop culture and breakups, I, you know, this reality star couple just broke up after years where I know you don't watch like. I don't watch reality. I don't know. Everyone like knew they should break up. They broke up. And I'm like, I am so happy for them. Yeah. Yeah. You know, because it's. It's like I know friends and like things you see around in life, how many people stay in marriages or in, you know, a life that and they just like, it's accepted.

Like, what? This is what it's supposed to be. I'm supposed to like live this way. So for sure those people that weren't supporting you were jelly that they couldn't, they couldn't do it. And it takes courage. It takes courage. It takes courage. So where did you find, where did you find the courage to make such a huge change to your life?

I was finally tired of, there's this great quote by this spiritual leader named Reverend Michael Beckwith, where he says, pain persists until the vision pulls. And I had reached a point in my life. I think some of it was through playing Billy where the vision finally pulled me out of my reality and like into a new reality. And I was like, I'm tired of playing small. I'm tired of living in a life that is not what I'm. wanted for myself and the vision of what my life could be where like my needs came first, my dreams came first. I was allowed. That pulled me out of it. And it's one of those things where it's like, you know, like I said, like divorce and long-term relationship breakups, like it's not overnight. So, you know, it's like going on this downward slope and eventually you finally reach the bottom and you're like, okay, no more.

You know, it's like ever since I was born, life in some way has been challenging. And I talk about it in the book from the time that I was little in women's shelters and my dad was an addict. And so I feel like I didn't always have the, I didn't have that picturesque, like, white picket fence. I didn't have that. It was raised by a single mom. And it was difficult. But at the same time, she was, she is amazing. And she always smiled through it all, which is where I feel like I get my, you know,

you know, glasses have full attitude from. But you reach a point where you're just like, there is no more, like, I will not, there's no more shit that I will eat. You know what I mean? That was not good English, by the way. I know that. There is no more shit that I will eat. I am an author, everybody. I can put words together. There is no more shit I will eat. But yeah, I think when you, when you come last enough, you know, when you put everybody first enough, you get to a point where you're just like, okay, no more, no more. And with age, right? Like you talk about that in the book a lot too. Like with age and getting older and like knowing what you want, knowing what you

will take from people, what you won't, putting yourself first, like that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you start to realize that it's all kind of bullshit. You start to realize that at the end of the day, none of it really matters, you know, like again, going back to that philosophy where it's like we're all here for such a short amount of time. Like whether something works out, whether it doesn't work out, whether you get married, whether you get a divorce, like whether, you know, it's just like none of it matters because it's all about the ride. Like the thing is, is like I feel like with life, you know, a lot of us we try to figure it out. We try to figure out the next step and the next thing. My life has taken so many twists and turns. I have done things, said things, you know, been in

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technically, right? Yeah. So if someone is like, Sarah, how are you, like, how are you, how are you, how, what, what's your, like, expertise? I feel like, you know, we're caught in this really interesting age. I mean, it's beautiful that the technology and the digital age is what it is, but at the same time, it's kind of a trap. Because I feel like we've lost the ability to think for ourselves. And, you know, it's like the algorithms tell us what to watch. Who does. talk to what to order, what to wear, what to eat. And we've lost the ability to check in with ourselves when at the end of the day, I believe that we are the smartest people in the room. Like, nobody can tell you what you need more than you. Nobody can tell me what's good for me more than me. You know, not my mom, not my children, whatever. So I feel like, you know, there's that

Bukowski quote, find what you love and let it kill you. No, your amount of quote knowledge is like insane. I'm a walking like quote calendar. No, you are like we were talking about dating profile. is a little bit yesterday. Like, is that in your date? Like, could quote, like, could literally just sit and quote all the quotes in the world? And, like, like, you know. Wait, wait. Yeah, no.

Was this because of writing the book? Were you a quote person before? I was always a quote person. Wow. I always love those short little bumper stickers. Okay, but you don't have them around your house. No. You don't have like live laugh, love.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, girl. Come on. We've got some taste. Okay, okay, good. You know what else I loved about the book is, like, you talk about the embracing the messy middle. Yeah. which again, I'll turn this to me.

Well, you do say in the book all the time, like, what do you say? Put it, put the mirror on you. Oh, yeah. Turn the mirror on you. Turn the mirror. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

So not skinny but not fat. The whole vibe is like middle. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like somewhere in the middle. Yeah. We try to rush the middle.

Like, I feel like the middle has become about chasing perfection. Yeah. And I'm like, that's not fun. And it's actually like really unreasonable and unattainable. So what are we doing? You know what I mean? So instead, it's like, stop trying to figure it out. Stop trying to be perfect. And embrace the mess. Like every time you fall,

who cares if you fall? It's how you pick yourself back up that matters. That's another quote. I mean, there's just so many. But how did you, like, were you this person 10 years ago that could talk like that, like embrace the chaos and, you know, have all these ways to, like, improve your life or, like, be more introspective? My behavior was aligned with that, but I was not confident in enough, or maybe I just hadn't explored myself enough to be able to speak on it. But my behavior, again, because of how I was raised in my mom, my behavior was always like, it's okay. Like, there are worse things in life. You know, it's like, all right, we're still here. We're smiling. You know, so it's like, we're still winning. If you put all of your problems on the table,

you would take yours back in the heartbeat. Like if everybody put all the problems on the table, you would take yours back in a heartbeat. So I've all, like, I was raised with that. And So I was always that person. But I don't think I felt confident in myself. I just didn't know myself, you know. And I also feel like you have to go through hardship sometimes. You know, I don't like people that give advice on things that they've never experienced. Like someone who has never had kids, don't tell me how to raise my kids.

You know, so it's like. Or dating experts that like don't. Or clearly have like intimacy issues and like are man haters. It's like, don't, okay, don't tell me about what it's like to be a queen and not call people back or whatever. You know what I mean? Or like, whatever. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. But yeah, like, you just have to go through some stuff, I think, before you can really talk about it. Yeah, I think that it's like, to me, it seems like, like, after having kids, of course, you feel so strong. You feel like you're a fucking, a superwoman. You feel like you've, like, earned something in this life.

And then I'm sure after going through a divorce, it's like you get some more strength. It's kind of like getting just, like, more muscles, you know? You start to realize, too, that, like, you're not made of glass. Yeah. And, like, and you can do the hard stuff. You know, the stuff that you're like, I don't know if I'll ever love anybody again. And I don't know if I'll ever or how am I going to do this or whatever. It's like, no, you can. You can.

You just got to trust yourself. You can. Okay. So I read the entire book. You did? Yes. And I, well, I loved it. And it was such a fun, like, helpful, smart read.

that is playful and just like perfect for me. Thank you. I wanted it to be entertaining. I don't want someone to get bored. I don't want people to think I was lecturing. No, it's not. I like that you posed in a way of like asking yourself the questions, right? Okay.

Yeah, yeah. And it's not like I'm telling you to do this because, yeah, yeah. Like ask yourself these questions and kind of come to your conclusion. But I was looking for something about the breakup. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I know you, you talked about it last night. the book. I didn't talk about it, but you said, like, I broke up. Yeah, I'm open about it. Yeah. Yeah. But you didn't get to write about it. No. I mean, I wrote that book when we were still together. I wrote it when we were together. And we're talking about Adam Demos, Demos, how do you say is that? Demos. Demos, sex life co-star. Yes. Everyone was shipping. And yes, an incredible man. And, you know,

I'm very grateful for our time together. And it was really sweet. Like, the way the world kind of took ownership of us as a couple. was really beautiful and the ways in which people were rooting for us and people felt inspired by our time together and our characters on the show. I had never been in a dynamic like that before. So that was really sweet and something that I'll always remember, you know?

And when it ended, it was equally touching that the world also kind of mourned that. But the hard part about that. People were wondering all the time. I remember I used to get DMs being like, Do you know? Do you know? Because people thought I, like, knew. And obviously because your friend, I would never speculate, like, publicly. But like, you know, people would see that you're not posting. Yeah, yeah. Or that, whatever. So there was a lot of speculation even when, and then let's say two weeks later you would post. But yeah, yeah. There would be. People were, like you said, like they were kind of part of it. Yeah, they really were. They really wanted to know. And it was touching. It was, it was touching to feel that. But also kind of sucked ass at the same time because then it was like going through it again. You know, because I think news of it broke like two weeks after we actually did split.

And then you're in your healing process and you're in your grief journey. And then it's like every time you open up social media, there it is. There it is. There it is. And people are sending it to you and whatever. And it's just like, okay. But yeah, it wasn't any, you know, what I will say, it's not like there was any sort of table flipping or any big dramatic ending. It was just two people whose future stopped rhyming.

It was just that easy, that simple, you know, not easy, but it was just that simple. And yeah. Did you think because when you would pose together, like it was very sweet and romantic and like you could feel the love through the screen. It was like hot and heavy it felt like. Yeah. Did you think that was your like person? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I thought that when I married Steve. Right. I thought that. when I got with Adam. Like it's like, you know, no, I don't go into anything thinking, oh, this is going to be a short-lived thing. Like, I'm a Capricorn. So I'm very hard to break down that wall.

Once that wall does get broken down, I'm like, we are fucking dying together, bitch. I'm going to be buried on top of you and we're going to like, let's get tattoos and everything. Yeah, exactly. We're going to, like, haunt people in the next lifetime together. Like, let's have fun. Right. You know, so for me, it's, it's very deep and intense and very loyal, you know.

But then as I learned, too, it's like you have to learn. when it's time, when it's not serving each other anymore and you got to go. So you said yesterday you're on the apps? Or was that a joke? No, I'm so on. I'm on, I'm on Raya. Wait, can we talk about something? You said before we went out, you're like, it's going to be all women.

It wasn't. I'm so surprised. By the way, there were men and the man in the first row, and I'm talking about the book signing event yesterday. Yeah. The man in the first row was literally filming, like, I don't know, it was a little crystal. Like, you have, like, the fans are fanning.

Yeah. So there were men in the audience, like, there were. And I don't think few, like, there were. Which you shouldn't be like one or two. It wasn't one or two. There were. And the other thing is you have diehard lesbian fans. I know I love them.

Yeah. I have stuck with you since. How many years has been to it? From the L Word? 2002. So 24 years. Yes. Still dying for Carmen.

I know. Like, the Lward fans are. They're incredible. Like, I feel like I wouldn't have a career. it weren't for the L-Word fans. Like, they really... They have followed me through everything, all my straight roles. Like, thank you.

I'll be back. I'll be back. I know. Just for a little. Exactly. Well, speaking of that, yeah, you did say... I did say. You gave a tease last night.

I did give a tease. Because they were... One of your fans from since the L-Word asked you if you talk to the girls. Yeah. You were saying you're close with the... Alicia Haley and Kate Menig and Jennifer Beals. I still talk to those girls. And yeah, I really can't.

And it's funny because I just learned. this information last week as well. So it's like super new to me. But yeah, there is a world in which the fans will see us together again. That is a dream. By the way, you know that I like fully watched the whole L word and like I'm also a fan of the show. Oh, did you really? Yeah, which like, I don't know how, how old was I? I was watching all that shit. I was watching queer as folk. I was like in it. It was. I don't know where my mom was, you know, but like I was, no, I wasn't that young. What was like 2002? Damn it. I was. I was. 22. So I was nine years younger than you, I think. You bitch. Sorry. You look so good, though. Like, it's

goals to stop. But I still can't do the math. It doesn't matter. Who cares? So I was like 13. And you were watching The L Word? And yeah. You know, I remember seeing one of the guys from queerest folk on the street once in New York. And I was like, Ryan, like, I can't remember. And he was like, you were way too young to be watching the show. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's what he said to me. Did you watch it when your parents were out of the house? Like, how did you sneak this? I think I was alone a lot. It was back in the day. Like, my mom worked.

We like, we're home. Yeah, yeah, you were by yourself. Yeah. Like, we were. We were. Yeah. So anyway, that was, it was interesting for me to see your fandom last night. Like the, and also there was a couple that also cracked me up.

The ones that got together because of sex life? And she was like, yes, there was. They were like role playing. They would pretend to be Billy and Brad. I know. There was a older couple. maybe like 50s, like mid-le, something like that. And they were there and they said they got together because of the show.

So even though they didn't say, it seemed like maybe they left their marriages and got together because of the show. And she was like, and I call him Brad! I couldn't believe it. There is a, when the show came out, you know what she should get. I don't know if they have this, though. There was a vibrator that Showtime released. It was like a vibrating dildo called the Brad. Showtime is crazy.

Their marketing stuff is. Show time like doesn't like because you know now there's a thing like whenever there's a show that's like hot and spicy and people wanted to be hot and spicy or they're like it should have been on showtime. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm all about the hot and spice, but I just want it. I don't want it to feel gratuitous. I just I just feel like it needs to make sense. It needs to make sense. Like I'm open to nudity. I'm open to sex scenes just as a performer. But it's like I just I want it to be tasteful and done well. And you felt good about that though in sex life. I felt good about it. I felt good about it. I felt. I felt, you know, I felt really great about it in the first season. The second season, to me, it struggled. It was not the same. And so my feelings about the second season, you know, I've talked about it with you. Right, right. They were not what it was in the first season.

But that's okay. RIP sex life. RAP, do you think there's a world where it could have not been RIP? Like we talked, like you said it was 170. It was wild. Like the amount of viewers worldwide. Can you imagine if it came out now? Because it also came out in COVID.

where we weren't allowed to really, like, do a press tour. We weren't allowed to do anything. Like, it came out and everything was virtual. And, you know, but I can't imagine what it would have done if it would have come out now. Yeah. I'm always open. Like, that's the thing. It's like, I've been surprised by the universe so many times that I never say, no, I will never do that.

Yeah. It's like, who knows? So writing this kind of book, did people pop up from your past? Did, did, like, X's pop up? Did anybody, was anybody scared you're going to like write about them or? No, I don't think so because I'm very aware to talk about it all from my perspective. You know, like I have had past like high school flings. I've had, I've had college boyfriends.

I've had them reach out, but not in connection to the book. Just trying to see if there's a chance and there isn't. But I'm like exing them all on Raya. But yeah, I'm, I was acutely aware that I'm not here to like, air out my dirty laundry. I'm just here as a girlfriend, like spilling my wisdom and passing out the little nuggets of wisdom I've gained along the way. We'll be right back after the break. These days, we really do ensure everything. Cars that lose value the second we drive them, phones, we trade in every two years and trips we haven't even taken yet. That's an wild one for me

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And we're back. So what are like your top three, like, let's say in terms of dating and like finding love and not like your tips for for the single ladies. Oh gosh. Well, I'm still trying to find it. So we're talking about yesterday that I loved is like the whole like not being a lady thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I feel like when you are meeting somebody, especially when you first like someone, like you want to, they're like, I have a golden retriever. And you're like, oh my God, I have a golden retriever. Like I like shark diving. I like shark diving. Meanwhile, you don't even know how to swim. Yeah. You know,

mean. So it's like, I feel like the women do this thing where sometimes they want to be what they think the man wants. Right. When I feel like that's not how we should be. Because if you present your authentic self, loud, like whether it's loud, whether it's quiet, whether it's demure, whether it's coquettish, like no matter what it is, you will weed out very early on the people that don't match. Right. And then you don't have to go through that process of like the questioning and And like, why haven't they called me back? Or should I text first? Or just whatever all that bullshit gamey stuff is.

It's so true what you're saying, though, too, because, like, I even know, like, somebody close in my life. Like, married, like, a guy who was so huge in nightlife. And she's, like, the last most, like, boring, non-night-lify person. Yeah. And, like, and now their problems all make sense. You're like, you knew he was like this when he went him. Yeah. But then it was like, you pretended at the beginning to be, like, doing the shots at the club.

where that ain't you. And I'm like, you would have saved yourself, you know. Oh, my God. So much heartbreak. So much stress. By saying from the beginning, like, I hate the club. Exactly. And by the way. It doesn't have to be by. Maybe he's like, great. Exactly. Like you don't know. Like that could be like, oh, interesting. And that could inspire something within the other person that they didn't know they may be needed. But it's like this idea that we have to change ourselves in order to adapt to somebody else's mold of what a relationship or a girlfriend or a female like looks like. I'm just done with all of those stories. I'm done with women pretending to be somebody that they're not. You don't win.

So it's like I like to be up front and I just want to be me. I just want to be me. And also I also think there's something really cool about like if you're in the mode for this, to like experiment. You know, like if you want to try on different personas, if you want to be the person who's a little bit coquettish on one date and then be the person who's a little bit, you know, more body on the next date. Like, I think it's fun. Like, dating should be fun. And I talk about this in the book, too. It's like, especially dating in your second act.

Like, you deserve a second half that's better than the first. Yeah. You know, and it's like, you've already learned your lessons. You know what works for you. You know what doesn't work for you. So now get out there and just make a little noise. And dating, like, we make it so much about the guy when it should be for about us. And, like, do they measure up to our standards?

Like, do we like them? Like, we think that they're trying us on, but. Really, it's like us kind of auditioning them. Right. You know? Kind of like a job interview. Whenever, like, friends would get nervous for a job interview, I'd be like, it's a two-way street. Exactly.

Like, you're not like, please take it. Maybe you won't like it. Like, maybe you don't want to work there. Yeah. And they need you. Yeah. They're about to pay you. And I also think women don't realize they don't accept their, like, this is like, this has a lot of definitions, but like the pussy power.

Right? Power to pussy. Yeah. Now I'm scared yesterday. I said that we taught, I tried to talk about the blowjob chapter and I forgot your kids were there. Yeah, it's okay. It's all right. I said low job in front of your kids.

I already had to, my agent already said it in front of them at the LA book signing. And I had to like explain. And then I said vagina. It's like, no, they know vagina. It's fine. I know. And then she was like, dick. And then she was like, oh, pussy.

And she was like, oh, I can't stop. And by the way, and I would look over and see like knocks like in his cute. His little face. By the way, he was like, beaming proud of you. looking at you. I'm telling you. Or he was so embarrassed. He was like, why is this my mother? I can't tell. Get me out of here. They really seem so proud of you. Oh, thank you. And like, it's hot. Like, that's the one part about the book, honestly, that I was the most nervous about is the blowjob chap. The sexuality stuff, the blowjob chap, the orgasms. Well, let's talk about the blowjob chap for a minute.

Because it cracked me up. I was scared it as hell when I first saw a dick. Is that my water? Yes. Now I'm And she, I see. And it's so far away. I'm sorry. I want to tell you about it because I want to tell you about your blowjob chapter. Yeah, tell me. First of all, like, yeah, I knew from the, I don't know how I knew from the beginning that there's going to be a blowjob chapter.

Because I think I sent you an early copy of that chapter. Yeah, maybe you sent me like four chapters. Because I was trying to get you to write that little blurb in the beginning. Yes, I wrote a little blurby. Yeah. And there's a comma reference. I'm all over this shit, guys. You really are.

All over it. But yeah. So when you sent me the four first chapters, Blow Job was one of it. I was like, let's go. But I loved it because, again, it's like, you know, sex is presented in porn or in movies or wherever. It's like, it's so hot. And it takes off his pants. You're like, oh.

Yeah, it's all not the man. Wait a second. Wait a second. Exactly. That shit is scary when you first see it. You know what I mean? It's weird looking. It's wrinkled.

It's got veins on it. There's like a little opening at the top. Who's looking at that for the first time being like. And going, oh, I can't wait. Get it in my mouth. Like, no. Yes. So you, in the.

this chapter, first of all, going from seeing it reacting that way to being like, put it in your mouth, gag on it, whatever else you say, which I'm like, get away from me, get away for me. Have my husband not know there's a chapter like that. Oh my God. But what you said, you know you do it. But what I love that you said is this is where it could, it applied to me. Yes. Okay. It's like, it's easier sometimes to get it over with. It is the lazy girl's guide to sex. That's what I loved about that. Yeah. Like, if you learn. learn how to give good head. It is literally like your best friend on nights when you don't want to have anything to do with it.

And you're trying to give them a solid. And yeah, it's easy. You're done in like three minutes or less, whatever, depending on. So you went to a class when you were 20 years old. I did. Because you didn't know. I didn't know. You know, it's like I was a very late bloomer.

And, you know, my mother always put sort of the fear of God in us when it came to do with sex and premarital sex. And so I, this was the air, like nothing was off the table when we were kids in terms of femininity and like sensuality as being as a female. But when it came to sex, that was a very repressed part of my childhood. So I really had to learn everything myself. And I was in L.A. and I was dating this guy. It was like super cute. And I could tell he wanted more than dry humping, which is like all I knew how to do. So I found, you know, the show that was really popular at the time was the show on HBO called Real Sex. Wait, so you were 20 at this point.

Yeah. And a virgin. And a virgin. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And so I... Wait, what was it called the show?

I think it was called Real Sex on HBO. I'm pretty sure. Okay. No, I'm trying to remember. Yeah. And it was this woman named Lou Paget, who was this older woman, but was like a sex expert. And she had this show and she was into so many different forms of sex and dominatrix stuff and different styles. And she had, she was giving a seminar.

She'd go around the world giving seminars. And she had one in L.A. And I was like, I'm signing up for that. By yourself. Did you go? I went by myself. Stop. Yeah.

I went by myself. I was like the youngest in attendance. I was like 20 and everybody else was older. and she put, there were like eight, eight, like, it was like eight or nine of us in a class. And she put these plates of China in front of us, like little, like dishes. And then we went around the room and then, and we picked our dildos. Like she had these dildos and everyone picked their color preference size, like whatever it was. And she, it was a very, it's interesting because I talk about it and it seems very,

slutty. But it wasn't. It was very, it was all about the biology of a penis and what different nerve endings did. So you weren't practicing. What? In this class? You were practicing on your dildo. With your mouth? With what else you're going to practice with? Well, in front of everybody else. You know what she did? You know what she did? This is what she said. This is what she said. She was like, like when she was describing the anatomy of a penis and how, you know, like, she was like, we were all just, like deer in headlights, right? We're just like, what? And she literally goes, okay, ladies. She was like, pick up your dildos. They're not going to jack themselves off. And we were just like, oh my God. So we all just started picking them. No, oh my God. My children are going to hate me.

Anyway, but yeah. And but it was there, honestly, that I got the confidence that I was like, okay, now I know what I'm doing. Now I feel comfortable and just confident in what I can give and like it's sexy to know that you can turn your partner on. You know what I mean? It's sexy to know that you are able to bring your partner to ecstasy. Yeah. That you have that power. So that's, yeah, and that's where I... What do you think like when you look back at 20-year-old Sarah? Yeah. Going to this class. Yes. Was it really only he, the guy that you liked, you thought would want more? Like there is probably something in you that's like explorative and like, you know, like curious. Yeah. Well, I've always been a curious person. I've always been somebody who loves

to explore. And it's not necessarily because I'm lost. I'm just naturally a wanderer. You know, and my favorite thing to say is I don't know. Like I, there's a lot that I don't know. And I'm just so open and I want to learn. I want to learn as much as I can while I'm here. And so, So, yeah, I've always had a very inquisitive personality. Yeah. Yeah. And so you said your sexuality was repressed when you were little. So was this kind of the opening of a new era, this blowjob class?

Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I've never been promiscuous. I was never that actor in acting class who was like getting massage. Like everybody in acting class, they always go around giving each other massages. Like, it's so weird. Actors are weird. Actors are so weird. So weird.

And yeah, I'm not that person. Like, again, like Capricorn, hard ass, it takes a lot to break my walls down. Yeah. So I was never promiscuous, but I've just always been a really good student. And I know that that puts it in sort of a less sexier way. But, like, I've always been a good student.

I've always wanted to learn. And it just really was from that perspective. But did that open something up in your life of like, like, because you said it was like repressed when you were little. Did that open you up to like have more experiences? I mean, I didn't. I, let's see.

Was the boyfriend happy with the class? The boyfriend was very happy with the class. Did you tell him he went? The boy was happening with the class and no. But it was all of a sudden one day we went from dry hunting to like this whole other world that opened up. Well, but you know what? That makes a really good point I feel like too, like that I feel like a lot of women that don't want to give head. Yeah.

part of it, there were probably a lot of reasons. Like, you're tired of this. But part of it is like I feel like I might not do good. Yeah. And I feel like I may be like in the movies or when it's like, oh, too much teeth or whatever, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, well, that's the other thing too when I was on sex life.

Like, that's why I wanted to put this chapter in there. There were so many women that were embarrassed by their own sexuality, that were embarrassed to, like, speak up or like talk about what they liked or had never had orgasms before. And I was like, ladies, this is a God-given, like, birthright. Like you have this anatomy for a reason. You know what I mean? And it's like, and if you're, if you haven't explored your body and experienced an orgasm, you're missing out on like how you take up space in the world. You're missing out on a beautiful part of your femininity. You know,

so it's like I really do come to it from such a like woman, like empowering and like, you know, owning your femininity, like that kind of way. From repressed sexuality and your, young ears to playing Billy is a wild trajectory. Yes. You know what I mean? Yeah. And you were saying yesterday, which I didn't know this piece that like the casting people or whatever were like, wait, how is she going to do this when she played more

like cop rolls and this and that? Yeah. So how did you, how do you think like they got convinced? Like what about you? I think because when I went in, I mean, there was so, I mean, those scripts, it was like they were ripped out of the page. of my heart. You know what I mean? Everything Billy was thinking and saying and questioning about her life, it's like I had been practicing for that role for years. Yeah. You know, so I think I just, you know,

did a fucking great job in the audition with the two scenes. Right. And then in that last one, I really failed. But then I was lucky enough that they saw something in me that mirrored the energy of Billy. So then they gave me another shot. And then I was like, okay, well, watch me now. You know, so, yeah. And the, like, looking back and, like, having, because I know in the book you talk about, like, Vogue wrote, like, an article, right? About, like, post, post. Yeah, the post baby, like, sexy body or whatever.

I was like, I don't remember that. And also, like, what post-baby body? Like, are you kidding me? Your body does not look post-baby. It's post-baby. It's post-baby. It's post-baby. It's post-baby.

It's post-baby. But it didn't look post-baby. But you did. Yeah, you were exposed. Yeah. How did you get? comfortable with that, like, pretty quickly? No, it was always, no, it was always hard because, you know, again, it's like,

I don't have the body of a 25-year-old. I've breastfed three children, you know? So it's like, things look different. And I, when we did the show in the first season, I had prosthetic boobs because my character was breastfeeding. Oh, so they were like full. Yes, exactly. And they were up high and it was just a whole other thing.

And then second season, the kids are older, like, Billy's not. So it was like, all right, like, I want to show what it really looks like. Could you have chosen to have prosthetic boobs, which I've never heard about before, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. If I, yes, of course, especially in the age of, like, me too and everything. Like, if I were not, if I wanted to say, you know what, no, I'm not comfortable. Like, let's.

Well, we know about how many prosthetic penises there are in shows and in the world. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But I really wanted to have this moment of saying. And, you know, and it was hard for me too, right? It's like when I got with Adam, he's not the father of the kids.

And I was nervous taking my clothes off. I was nervous having sex, right? So it's like it's one thing when you're having sex with the father of your children, that's different. But then when it's a new person, you feel a little insecure. Are they going to love you the same? Are they still going to think you're fun and hot and sexy, you know? Yeah, I really wanted to use that moment as kind of. making a statement that if you love your flaws, you love your lumps, you love all those little

things that changed. It's not about the other person. It's about how you feel. And that's really what I've been learning. Like, especially in this last year that I've been single is I'm learning about myself without attachment to men. And this is the first time in my life where I'm single. And it really- Wow, really, the first time in your life, truly, you just went from relationship to relationship your whole life. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And it really. And it really, really, the first time in your life, It's been a year. It's been a year. So would you want this, like, if you could decide to, would you want some more time being single?

I do. Because I'm not, and it's not even because I'm out, like, you know, every night. I mean, I wish. But, like, I like learning about myself, like, without a man present. So I'm starting to learn, like, you know, how I just flirt and be in the world, how I smile a little extra, not just at someone that I like, but I do this. that with everybody that I meet. You know what I mean? It's like there are parts of myself that when I was in a relationship, I tampered down a little bit because I didn't want to seem disrespectful or I didn't

want to, you know, put my arm around another man in a photo because what if that looks a certain way? Or I didn't want to, you know, do a little kiss when you first, like I just, I was acutely aware. Oh, really? Yeah. And I just didn't want to ever put out mixed signals. But now I'm just learning that that was more about them. And like, their insecurities and not me or who I am because I am somebody who loves people. It doesn't mean I want to fuck them, but I love people. So I'm just learning about myself. And I do want to like date and have fun nights.

But I'm okay with a slow burn. I'm okay with a slow burn. I'm not ready to give this up right now to just jump into another attachment with somebody. I do want to talk about the chapter in your book where you talk about the moment with your dad when you were sex. Oh, yeah. It also got picked up a lot, a lot of headlines about it. I feel like a moment that you don't expect, especially in this book, even though you do say like, strap in. I know.

Yeah. I give a little warning. Yeah, we're going to have a heavy moment. I mean, that is, it was a crazy thing to experience as any age, but a six-year-old. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I don't have what I remember.

I remember my dad wasn't, my dad was an addict. God bless his soul. He passed and we did not have a good relationship. He passed 10 years ago. And we hadn't spoken to each other in probably about 10 years before he passed. but he was an addict. And what I do remember from that moment is he had me outside. He was crying.

Tears were just falling down his face so fast. And I remember the gun. I remember the metal. I remember the metal up against my forehead. And I remember it kind of hurt. But I had more attention on him and like how sad he was. Like I just didn't understand. And something felt off.

But I never felt, but it wasn't one of those things where I felt like, I don't think I knew what I knew what a gun was. Right. You know what I mean? Like I didn't know. And I also didn't, I didn't associate in my brain that my father could do something to hurt me. Right. So my mom, I remember my mom coming in, she saw us outside. And she walked to him, like, with so much calm and just really, really slow. And I just remember she, like, opened her hand. And he dropped the gun. And then she took me and, like, we ran back inside. And I remember looking back, we had these big bay windows in this house I grew up in. And there was a puddle of like tears on the ground. And my dad just collapsed into that puddle. And my mom really got the brunt of my relationship with my dad because they divorced when I was eight. And then he was out of my life more than he was in.

But he was also such a beautiful teacher. Like the reason I've never smoked a cigarette and I've never been hooked on anything, I've been too scared to it because my dad was an addict. Like I was too scared to take a Tylenol until I was 20. Really? You know what I mean? So I've always had a very, like, I've always been scared of substances. Because you saw him.

Because I saw him do it, you know? And even in a young age, like you were tracking that something is wrong. Something is off. Yeah. Something is off. You know, but it's from that moment on, though, too, like looking back and like, wow, there were so many moments in my young, like, childhood, these formative years where I had to sort of put myself back up, back together,

even if it was conscious or not. Yeah. You know, and like that, that resilience or it started at such a young age. And I think I got to a point, especially in my 40s, where I'm like, I'm tired of that. I'm tired of being in things where I have to put myself back together again. I don't want that anymore for myself. I want to create a new reality, a new chapter, where everything is fun. light. And the minute something doesn't feel good, I'm not going to be there anymore because life

is too short. Yeah. Life is lifey. Life is lifey. Life is lifey, you guys. Out now. It really is incredible for all my ladies and men. They clearly want it. They clearly want it. And I love you. Thank you for coming again. I love you. Thank you so much. Oh, I love you so much. Do we hug? We can hug. Let's hug. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of Not Skinny, but Not Fat. Follow me on Instagram at that's good. I mean, but not fun, but not fat. Subscribe to the podcast, so you don't miss any episodes. Rate the podcast that you love so much on Apple Podcasts and write a little review.

If you tell me you did, I'll give you a big virtual smoocheroo. Thank you guys so much for listening, and I'll see you next Tuesday. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services. referred to in this episode.