Not Skinny But Not Fat - ZOE LISTER JONES ON SLIP, ORGASMS & MONOGAMY

Episode Date: May 23, 2023

Zoe Lister Jones, the multi-hyphenate, is on the pod to talk all things SLIP, her amazing new Roku show which centers around a woman who travels to different multiverses when she orgasms, whether she believes in love and monogamy, Brooklyn vs LA, working with Dakota Johnson, women coming into their sexuality and more!!! Produced by Dear Media This episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct, or indirect financial interest in products, or services referred to in this episode.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Hello, Zoe, Lister Jones. Hi. How's it going? I'm good. How are you? I'm pretty good. How terrible is that construction noise? Did you just hear that?

I didn't. I mean, I'm in new, are you in New York? No, I'm in L.A. Oh, I was going to say New York always has sounds. I don't hear the construction though. Wonderful. Oh, good, but you're in New York, girly.

Like, you grew up in New York, right? I grew up in Brooklyn, yeah. So what's the L.A. life, like, in comparison? You know, as a native New Yorker, I always was like, I would never, like, how dare anyone? And then I got a job here. like a decade ago acting and I was just like an immediate convert and like then just came back to New York and was like y'all are foolish. Really? Why? And you started saying y'all too

after you move? No, but tell me, I'm a New Yorker and like I always like there's some sort of itch but it's like unless I'm forced to I probably won't. So convert us like why? I can't believe you neglected who you are? I betray myself daily, sometimes three to four times a day. I, no, I would never say y'all are foolish. I would say you all

are suckers. No, I'm just kidding. I love New York. And truly the great life that I have now is that I am by postal. Like, I like to spend as much time in New York as I can while also maintain. a life in L.A. because I think that they each have such incredible things to offer. And this is like

one of the most boring L.A. dinner party conversations like L.A. versus New York. I just feel like being raised in New York, my nervous system is fucked. And I'm sure that the nervous system of L.A. kids is fucked in a different way. But when I got here, it just felt like a lifestyle. that calmed me that I think I needed. And like I never ever had a backyard my entire life. And like just to have a backyard is something that is like cool. You know, you don't fancy fire escapes. You don't like it. Oh, I fancy an F.E. But no, you know, I think they both look. There's also totally different like modes of socializing that I think are each cool for different reasons. Like, New York is such an immediate and spontaneous place to like meet people and see people.

And I miss that when I'm here. And then when I'm in New York, I sort of miss the like solitude and the intentionality of like everyone come over for dinner. And we have like a nice space to host and, you know, all that shit. Yeah. No, the reason I asked the boring dinner party question, thank you. I was not saying your question was boring. I was like I feel like I'm like a broken record because I talk about this so much. was because you give kind of New York.

Like when I saw that you were like born and raised in Brooklyn, like it made sense. We're in Brooklyn. If you said I gave L.A., I would be deeply. Right. See? See? Right. So L.A.

Yeah. I was raised in like the ed, like the sort of border between Park Slope and Sunset Park. My mom called it Park slip. But yeah, and then I moved to Dittmus Park in high school. And then I went to NYU and, And I didn't leave New York until I was 29. That is crazy that you stayed in New York for college because I feel like as a New Yorker, other people, like, we were all kind of like, let's get out of New York for college and have that college experience of like the lawns and the dorms. But you like stayed in New York.

Yeah. I think it was sort of a Stockholm syndrome situation. But. And did you dorm? Did you dorm and stuff? I dormed my freshman year. and then like because both my parents are artists like they had none of their friends were ever had enough money to buy anything but they all had like rent controlled like situations in New York that I ended up like getting some pretty cool hookups of sublets like for the rest of my time in college but I would like go visit my friends on actual campuses and I was totally envious of that like a little jealous yeah and you went to NYU for acting Yeah.

So you knew your whole life. You wanted to be an actress? No. And in fact, like, when I got into acting school, I didn't want to go. And my mom sort of told me that I had to because I got a scholarship. Oh, you got a scholarship, too. Damn. But it was more like that.

I always, like, loved performing. I was very shy as a child. And my mom put me in acting class, I think, to help combat my shyness. And then, but because. both my parents are artists and were broke my whole life and were sort of perpetually heartbroken by all of the rejection that they were facing as artists, there was no part of me that romanticized the life of an artist, particularly an actor. I was like, that looks like a hard as hell and impossible to make a living. And I was like a pretty practical kid being like,

I don't want this kind of instability. But like in a reverse situation, my mom. I was like, no, go do it. You know, you should because I did love it, you know. I just was afraid of putting all my eggs into that basket. But it worked. And then, yeah, and then I did make a living from it. And that was like such a wild turn of events. Wow.

I love hearing those stories. Are you an only child? Yeah, I have two half siblings, half sisters in Canada, but I was raised in New York as an only child. Did you like it? Did you want, no, because I'm, I have one son and I'm like, should you be one? So whenever I meet an only child, I'm like, give me the benefits.

Tell me. Okay. The benefits are, I think you like, well, I don't know if this is a good thing, but I think you do sort of grow up faster because you're being treated as an adult at an earlier age and you don't have any companionship. Am I selling it well? You're like hanging out. You're hanging out.

I was hanging out with a lot of adults, but that was also like my parents were just like that. Like I was just being, they didn't have a ton of childcare. So I was just being brought to like, you know, all their stuff. But I also think that's cool.

Like, especially like in New York, like a kid being exposed to cool stuff is, it builds so much character and texture. And I think, you know, informed who I am as an artist in lots of ways. Like,

I will say that my, I would advocate, having only one child as an adult who doesn't have children and has witnessed the difference in the lives between my friends who have one child, my friends who have more than one child. Right, right. So you're saying not as an only child you recommended, but as like, yeah, as like adults who have one kid and it's just fucking easier. Yeah. Yeah. Like my friend once said having a second kid is it's like you're drowning and someone throws you baby oh my god oh my god thank well thank you no problem i was leaning and then i but right growing up

in new york it's also like crazy do you ever think wow how crazy is it that i'm okay because yeah did you also like try drugs pretty early and stuff like that you know interestingly i didn't because my parents were, I think, like, sorry, mom and dad, like, experimented with a lot of their own drug use. Like, not, not recklessly, but like, I think. They sound like hippies. They sound like hippie-ish. They were, they were, yeah, they still are very groovy folks. And so I think, like, my way of establishing some sense of control in my world was to go the opposite route was to like not do drugs like I was straight edge until my god I remember that word do I don't I don't think so and I'm aging myself yeah but I was like I like I was very afraid of

a lack of control and so and I was also I had a lot of older friends and they were all doing a lot of drugs and I was sort of like the sober watch person for them when they were like on their LSD trips and I was going to say I've been a sober while I would never like Like, I didn't, never tried that. But I was that person. I was like, you take this, like, maybe LSD and I'll make sure you're alive. And then it ended up, like, not even being a real shit. And they would, like, grow up.

When I first smoked pot, I said a Jewish prayer. Which one? I mean, I'm Jewish, but I don't think I'd know it. It's called Chehechianu. It's what you say the first, the first time you do something. And he said, he said sheikiano, vegano or something. That's right. Well, I'm Israeli, so I can make, I can say the word.

That's it. Chihano, vegano, lazmaneze. That's right. To smoke pot. That's right. And then I told my rabbi. I was not raised extra religious. I was raising like a very groovy, like, egalitarian synagogue.

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Don't miss out base travel.com slash not skinny. So you grew up Jewish, though? Yeah, I grew up. My mom was the president of our synagogue. And I grew up, yeah, going to synagogue every Saturday. And it was like a beautiful experience in community. We had a woman rabbi, woman canter. It was a very queer congregation.

And like it was all like gender neutral God language. Like it was a very cool place to experience spirituality. And so many of my Jewish friends who are like, I hate synagogue because they were like dragged there against their will. I just have a totally different relationship to it. Yeah. Do you do like the holidays and like the thing? So I still do the holidays.

I'm I don't go to synagogue on the weekends. But there's a great synagogue in LA with this amazing rabbi named Sharon Brous. And I, whenever I do go, I feel like really nourished. Yeah. Yeah. I can see that. I haven't been in years. Do you like do Yom Kippur and stuff like fast? I go to synagogue on Yom Kippur and I do not fast. Yeah. You know what I started doing instead of not eating food though, which doesn't count, but I'm like, God gets it. I do a digital fast.

That's actually so much more impactful. Right. I'm like not eating, excuse me, not like being on my phone, not going on social media. That's amazing. I want to do that because, you know, We'll be like, I'm fasting every day. Wait, what do you mean? I mean, I don't need gluten. I don't eat dairy. I don't need nightshades. Oh, she's LA.

Oh, my God, night shades. I don't even Google what that is. Potatoes, egg plant, tomatoes, peppers. Is it because of like Jewish tummy issues? Yes. Or is it because of like, oh, it is? Deeply Jewish tummy issues, but also like, I, there's no way. I also have like body image issues for sure.

well like I you know just looked at your body for a really long time so whatever you're doing is working I mean yeah so I watched like not I watched like four episodes of slip it's Zoe's new show on Roku which by the way I just want to tell everyone you're welcome Roku for the free ad is it's so much easier than you think because there's a Roku app you don't have to get the fucking thing but thank you for sending it to me you're welcome but like you can download the app like you would download like a Netflix and then it's free it just has like a couple ads it's not even a big deal you can also just like go to the roku channel.com on your laptop and it's totally free

oh yeah I'm not a laptop watcher but you could I'm like I needed like on the screen but it's so good like the trailer obviously got me but the show is even more fun and it's like 30 minute episode so it's super like a quick fun binge but also has like such depth and makes you question your life and your marriage. No problem. Thank you. So tell us about a little bit about Slip, which you wrote, directed, or starring in everything. Well, thank you for all those kind things. It really means so much to me. It's totally my baby. And yeah, it follows a character named May played by me who when we meet her is feeling very stuck in her marriage and one night ends up cheating on her husband and then

wakes up the next morning to discover that she's now married to the guy she cheated on her husband with and over the course of the season comes to realize that through orgasm she's being transported into the multiverse into like another dimension yeah so every episode basically she's fucking her way into all of her parallel lives and relationships Did you come up with this entire, did you write this entire script yourself? Yeah, I wrote all seven episodes in quarantine. I feel like I've always been a person who like anyone I meet that I have like even a modicum of attraction towards I flash forward to an entire life with.

And I thought it would be so fun to like actually play those fantasies out and as a way to sort of explore like, the human nature of restlessness in any relationship and what we do with those fantasies and what we do with that desire for more and to do it like through the lens of sex and sexuality particular like female sexuality because I also in quarantine was like I want to watch like a show that turns me on and also speaks to all of these feelings that are bubbling up inside of me. Wait, do you know what you just said? Because the first part I was like, yeah, like got that. And then the second part that you said, which was that the idea came to you from the fact that you meet somebody are a little bit attracted and then envision the life.

I didn't even think about that watching, but it makes total sense. Like, I totally get what you're saying. And there is that, I mean, it's not like sci-fi. There is that like little, right, like part of it, which like she's going into different universes. I don't really feel that it's like sci-fi-ish. but like when you're saying that that makes total sense like we do that and also I feel like it brings in which I wanted to ask you how what you think about that and what you're trying to say maybe I'll get to it by the end is like when you're with someone for a long time you get kind of bored you see someone hot whatever you're like this would be way more fun but then is the point that it won't be way more fun like it'll end up just be watching TV every night like is that is that it like are we doomed I mean I think that like the one of the themes of the show that I wanted to explore was was yeah like the misguided attempt at

finding that sense of inner safety or satisfaction in someone else because we will never like and if we're constantly looking for it in another person I think we are sort of doomed you know have I put those lessons into practice a hell no but it's a good thing to think about and I think like I did want to make a show that allowed people to feel less alone in those feelings, like in those feelings of restlessness or dissatisfaction. I was with my partner for a really long time, and we split up in quarantine. And so I think a lot of those big sort of existential questions were like very loud, you know, in my mind when I was writing this about where we find that comfort and what home means.

to each of us. Yeah. So it was after like 17 years that you were with a person. Yeah. So that, that drew inspiration for Slip. Yeah, I was, I was, I conceived of it before we split up.

But there were, yeah, I think it was me wrestling with a lot of those questions as we were still together. And then after the break. How did it happen that you, did you know immediately that you wanted to, be May. Yeah.

Yeah. And I'll Fuck that, Chad. I'm not going to give it to somebody else. Yeah. Like being an actor is rough. And and I think what's so exciting about being able to write your own parts is that you get to write the parts of your dreams.

And oftentimes like parts that wouldn't be offered to me otherwise. And I always know I wanted to direct it too. Like I love the intersection of writing. directing acting. How does that happen? How physically? Like when I get through a director, I'm like, the director is like, go over there, like cut, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you're in the scene. So tell me how, do you have someone like an assistant director that's like the one standing outside of the frame? I have like. So there's like monitors and at and then there's like the set where you're acting. And usually a director is at the monitor with their cinematographer and their

producer and a script supervisor and all of their team. So all those people are at Monitor and it is important to have a producer that you really trust who can be at Monitor so that, you know, I can call out and say like anything else I'm good to move on. I generally am not like asking a lot of questions of them, but I am, when I'm ready to move on, I make sure that everyone at Monitor is good to move on too because I am not watching from monitor. They also, like, I have a mini monitor that they'll bring me to set so that if I need to see something back, I can watch what you call playback. But we shot all seven

episodes in 36 days, which is a really tight schedule. So there wasn't a lot of time for me to be doing that. But luckily, like, I had written and directed and acted films before. So I already had, like, sort of worked those muscles and understood how to do it. And I think, it is so much reliant on preparation. I work so intensively with my team and my cinematographer, my production designer, my costume designer leading up to the shoot so that like there's not one question on the answer and that the vision is so clear so that like when we are actually on set, they know exactly what they're executing and elevating and all the cool

things that they do. How weird was it doing the sex scenes or not weird at all maybe? No, it's weird. I'm like very naked and yeah and yeah directing directing naked is a whole new ballgame and also I wasn't you know what I was thinking I was like okay I get I can you know understand the like being naked that you can get comfortable with maybe but then the orgasm part which you have to do a lot was that less or more awkward than being naked and like did it make people laugh like what what was the vibe?

Luckily, the set was so safe and comfortable, like, otherwise it would have been, you know, a terror. And I think that was, like, my responsibility to set that tone. I think the fact that because I was also the writer and creator and director, like, a lot of the terrible history that oftentimes, like, women have being, like, sexually objectified in those circumstances, I could protect myself against because I was in ultimate control of the situation. but like everyone's still you can feel the nerves on set because sex is scary and sex is vulnerable and especially I think in this country like there's so much stigma and taboo around it and I think part of my intention in making a show that had a woman's orgasm at every center was to destigmatize it and was to be like what if we could be turned on and look at a woman in this context who is also like a mess and like and horny and doesn't know what the fuck she's doing with her life and being

silly and and very successful and like to just like demystify it in a way that would make people less like giggly or uncomfortable right it was wild like in post it was more wild like in post production because like I would have to sit in a room of mostly men like who are like doing the sound mix and like mix the levels of my orgasm and we all be watching the fake orgasm on screen and it was like terrifying and at first you could just feel like everyone's shoulders go up to their ears but then like the second and third time we were like watching it through and then you watch it through so many times yeah at the end it was kind of this amazing journey that we'd all been on together to be like oh we're all cool with this like this is just a normal part

of life and I can see you as my boss and I can see you naked on screen you know normalize that guys in your lives your character may in the show says i think in one of the first times she she has sex with someone other than her husband she says like i've never had this before like about an orgasm right yeah she says she's never come from this before because he goes down on her and so yeah yeah like i i do think there's a lot of women that have sexual awakenings later like in their 30s and we don't totally talk about it. I think there's so much pressure on women in their 20s to like have a lot of embodiment or access to their sexual pleasure and I personally struggled with that a lot in my 20s and I know a lot of

friends who did too and I think yeah I wanted to create a story that where we could look at like a woman who had struggled with like sexual intimacy and coming and then like found it and was like Oh, shit. I'm transported into different universes. Oh, shit. This is what I was. No, I think that's so important too, Zoe, because so many women don't talk about it, you know? And sometimes because they don't talk about it, they never orgasm because they're not speaking up about it. They're not telling their partner what to do or what not to do. And it's crazy, like friends or so many people that I've talked to that, you know, not even, oh, I don't come from this and I come from this. But even in general. not ever have come and I think it's such a or a lot of women just about the the having a man go down on you yeah women feel uncomfortable with that and it's like do you not like it for real which is fine or do you not like it you know because of internalized shame which like there have been so many moments in all of our lives just growing up where it's like kids on the

playground or just things about smells and all of the things like that are mean about vaginas you know that have like those things are impossible not to internalize and so like I do think yeah that's such a gift if you can like release the shame of those things and allow for yourself to be open to pleasure but it's so complicated and also like the female orgasm is really complicated like it's so not cut and dry and and and So I think that's also something that we don't talk about all that often and sort of how to, how to explore that and ask for what you need. I love that. You guys, did you know that Macy's has a live every Tuesday and Thursday at 12 p.m. and 4 p.m.

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We were working on another project together. We're still working on it. And Dakota and her partner, Rodonnelly, who run tea time pictures, which is their production company, were like, we were all at dinner one night

with our other producer, Katie. And I said, like they were talking about like wanting like something that was like a fun, like sexy series. And I was like, casually, I have seven episodes written of something. Casually.

Wait, but is that weird? Because, you know, in business, it's weird, right? Like, did you have that in the back of your mind? Were you uncomfortable to bring it up to her? Because you didn't want to seem like I'm just kind of doing the dinner because I have something to pitch. Like, how do you navigate those things? I was nervous pitching it for sure.

And I'm like so terrified probably as like New Yorkers. Like, we never want to be thirsty. you know what I mean like there's so much pride oh my god yes I I think like yeah I was scared and I was also like it's a very personal show and I was like scared to just when you deliver seven episodes to somebody like they either gonna love it or they're gonna not love it you know like you're not pitching like an idea that can then be twerked it's like it's literally ready and they loved it and then and that was amazing and Dakota's an incredible partner and like the coolest person and now I consider her a friend and I feel so lucky that that she's just been such a huge support of this and like she texted me the other day like I've never been on social media more like she's just like such a proud like mama of like posting all of the slip content and and I think she is just so proud of the show and it feels like a real like family like we we really built it with very little and and Roku was amazing too like they brought it to Roku and gave them all seven scripts

and Roku gave us a green light to series with not one script note, which is unheard of, and just gave me all of the freedom to just make the exact show that I wanted, which is a dream. Wow, that is a dream. Does that mean that there is no possibility for a season two? Have you thought about it? Well, funny you should ask. Season two is written. Roku has not given us a green light to shoot it, but they did give us a green light

to start a writer's room, which we did a few months ago and now have all episodes written. So fingers crossed. Oh my God. Wait, was the first season like in the writer's room as well? No, the first season I wrote by myself. And then... It becomes a whole production.

Well, I think season two, they're like, do you want to write it by yourself? And I was like, I'm tired. So I had an outline for what I wanted season two to be. And we had a small room. We just had three writers and it was a really fast room. It was five weeks. Like that's like it was a very expedited process.

But I think I was very clear on what I wanted it to be in the themes I wanted to explore. And we banged it out. No pun intended. And so yeah, I'm really excited. It's like, oh my God. That's so cool. So we're waiting for the great like there's, we're waiting for the final. But I feel like Roku is going to.

I hope so. I'm like Roku will do it. You know that. I'm like from your mouth to the Roku God's ears from my mouth to the Roku God's ears. I love that you have those little juicing. I also recently saw you on a good person. Zach Brath. I know he was on the podcast. He was on the podcast. How cute. How sweet is Zach Brow? Like what is that? I know. What is that? What is that? And I loved you on it. I feel like it was a surprise, you know, for me that you were on it because, you know, I kind of went in to watch.

I was like, oh, I know that flow is in it and I know Morgan Freeman, but you were such a fun little surprise. So was that, how did that happen? Like you, you getting on the movie, was it like, Zach called you up? No, I auditioned. I'm still, I'm still auditioning, y'all. Well, trying to get offer only about that recently. I'm like, bitch, I want, like, if I would be an actress, I'd be like, offer only.

For sure. I would love to be offer only. I still am not currently. That's why I only offer to myself. But, yeah, I just auditioned. Like, I put myself on tape and Zach watched the tape and I got the part and I didn't know him personally. I didn't know Flo personally. And then, yeah, it was such a, like, an amazing set.

And Zach is so talented as a filmmaker. And Flo is obviously, like, one of the great actors of our generation. And Morgan Freeman and Molly Shannon, like, it was just a dream situation. just to be a small part of it. Yeah, no, you had a really cool role. You played her sponsor. And as a former Straight Edge, you probably had some experience. No, it was a super cool role.

You guys should watch that too. So For Slip, Emily Hampshire is in it as one of the, as one of your partners. And, you know, we kind of all know her and love her from Schitt's Creek. Yeah. Did you know her in lover from there? Is that how you got her on? Yeah, I love her on Schitts Creek. I think she's so funny.

And yeah, if she just seemed like a great fit for the role, because I think what's cool about everyone, each role, is that many of these people get to play two sides of a person, like the honeymoon phase of a person, and then the like when the shit hits the fan phase of a relationship. And so, like, it was, I thought Emily would be able to do that so. which she does in the show of like the seductress, you know, in stage one. And then like like the sort of like lesbians with kids who are like just trying to stay afloat and like want to

murder each other. And we just had so much fun. And she's such a like gem of a human being. I know. She seems like so fun. And, you know, now that we've been talking more about slip, it's like I'm, it's really getting me thinking even more than when I was actually watching it. because I'm going back to that question of but are we doomed and your answer was your answer was vaguely your answer was like you can't rely on another person for kind of you know which great but I think also there's kind of doomage because it kind of means like the honeymoon phase won't last forever in every person even if they seem fucking cool and badass and like they want to fuck in the bathroom. You'll end up watching TV on the couch. Yeah, but I do, you know, I am like a real

romantic and I'm not cynical about that. Like I actually don't think it's doomed and I have, I have faith in love. Monogamy. I mean, I don't even think it's about monogamy. Like I, I have experimented with non-monogamy too. Like, I just think that it is about, you do have to work on your own shit. And that doesn't mean alone necessarily. It just means like a willingness to be able to face patterns that might not be serving you in a relationship and my multiple therapists I'm in group therapy and individual therapy like with with people you don't know yeah it's really amazing but but like both of my therapists they that oftentimes like a lot of people are like I need to just like leave this relationship and work on me and sometimes

that is absolutely the case. There are also times when a relationship is an amazing place to also work on you and to test some of like the patterns that you might want to be investigating in relationship. So I don't think it's doomed. I just think it takes work. And some people are just not meant to be together. Like that's okay too. And that takes bravery to also say like, I'm going to exit, you know.

And I believe there is more, and I believe there is someone who can fulfill these needs in a different way. Where did you film the show? I wanted to know. We filmed it in Toronto. It takes place in New York. But then we had a couple days in New York. So we, like, shot, you know, all of our little New York pieces. Oh, so you did, like, external stuff in New York a little bit.

Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. But I'll on Toronto. I was also, you know what other question I brought up for me, Zoe? Multi-hyphenate. Do you like the people call you multi-hyphenate? Or when people call people with two last names, that?

Oh, you like it? Yeah. Well, I mean, it has, it has many minutes. I know. Oh, true. Because I have a hyphenated last name and I'm a multi-hyphed. True. But I do like it.

Yeah, I'm proud of it. I like it. And like Zoe Lister Jones is really a good name. We're also going to talk about your hair for a minute because I feel like it's important. But I wanted to ask you because this is another question that was brought up to me from the show. Do you think, in general, from your experience, I feel like a lot of these shows, because, like, you know, sex life on Netflix also came out, Explore is kind of a similar thing, which is, like, woman in her marriage, kind of feeling like, you know. so it got me thinking like are the women are women more like in their heads you know kind of thinking about other paths and and and restlessness and everything and are men like more complacent

and they less think about it I think it's so hard to like divide the world into those binaries because I do think like you know there are everyone contains so many multitudes I do think that like when I when when in terms of fantasy like in terms of the flash forwarding to a life together I do think that is distinctly characteristic of women like I don't think that a ton of dudes are doing that or like doing the whole the whole flash forward no I think they're like planning a way to fuck and then exit and also the other thing you said was like and you said this in this interview because you turned 40 recently, right? Yeah. Heard it's a great decade, by the way. Heard it's really great. And you have been saying like women in their 30s are having these sexual awakenings.

I'm hearing it's 40s. You know, I love to hear it. I'm ready for more. I have really, I would say my 40th birthday is my best, best birthday to date. And I spent it alone. What? In Italy, it's the only time I've ever spent a birthday alone. The day itself, like I went to Italy. I met my mom in Venice, like got us a really beautiful, fancy hotel, and we went and saw all this art. And then drove myself to like a six-course meal at one of the best restaurants in Italy alone, ate it alone. And then drove- Did you get a cake with a candle and vote out?

100%. And it was, it's a Michelin-starred restaurant. There were like five tables and they all just looked at me alone. with my cake and candle. But I was, I must feel like empowering, though, as fuck. It kind of was. I was like, yeah, like, this is, this is it. Like, this is, there are so many things. This is it. This is it.

Eating cake alone in Italy. No, and then I, and then I drove myself to the coast of Italy, and I spent my actual birthday, like, on the beach. And it was so empowering. Like, and it was, like, a real, it felt like a real crossroads for me of, like, entering into a new stage of that sense of like internal safety not saying like I don't want to spend many birthdays with other people but like that I could do it and that I had fun and that I ate pizza for breakfast lunch and dinner how was that how was that Jewish tummy it was rough but

it was worth it and and then like and then the next day I drove like I had all these girlfriends come and meet me and so I got like the best of all worlds but I will say I'm really enjoying 40 and and I think that for women especially like aging is such a terrifying prospect and I'm enjoying it so yeah it looks I'm telling you I feel like everyone I've heard talk about 40s say that it's like the best it's like the best sex and the best you know and I embrace aging you know like I feel like we're we're better now than we were before I think so like and I look at so many of my friends who I think are like they're most beautiful you know now because it this is like so cornball but it does it does come from a sense of like internal love you know like

that's what you radiate if you can get there and I think with age that does come yeah I love that Zoe Lister Jones you're the actual coolest thank you so much for coming on my show oh my god it's been so much fun. Go watch, slip. It's on Roku. You could go to the website. You could download the app to your smart TV. You can watch on your laptop. Super easy. Free, which please note that. It's very important. It's very important. No, there's not, no fees. No fees involved. And it's a really good show. Thank you, Zoe. Thank you so much. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of Not Skinny, but Not Fat. Follow me on Instagram at Not Skinny, but Not Fat. Subscribe. to the podcast so you don't miss any episodes. Rate the podcast that you love so much on Apple

podcast and write a little review. If you tell me you did, I'll give you a big virtual smoocheroo. Thank you guys so much for listening and I'll see you next Tuesday. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.