Not Your Father’s Data Center - The Road Ahead for Digital Infrastructure

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

Today, host Raymond Hawkins chats with Mike Netzer, VP of Sales at datacenterHawk, a professional with a diverse background, from managing pension portfolios to diving deep into the data center industry. Originating from the Northeast with stints in Idaho, Connecticut, Florida, and Texas, Mike brings a rich mix of experiences and insights to the table.The dialogue meticulously covers a range of timely topics concerning the data center industry. Mike and Raymond delve into the increasing demands on power generation driven by growing data center capacities and touch upon the economic shifts brought on by large tech deals, specifically in the realms of Artificial Intelligence (AI). The significance of viewing data centers as critical infrastructure similar to roads and water treatment facilities is comprehensively analyzed, reflecting on their indispensable role in modern societies. The discussion further explores the impact of AI on technological advancements, the potential adaptability of nuclear energy in data centers, and the broader implications of energy pricing on the industry's economic viability.

You show some of the AI applications we have today to someone even just a year or two ago, and they're going, no way. That video is not real. Yeah. Or that video has to be real. That video can't be fake. And you go, yeah, sure enough, it's fake. Hello, hello.

It's Raymond Hawkins, Chief Revenue Officer at Compass Data Centers, your host for Not Your Father's Data Center. We are going to hang out today and talk about data centers with the geniuses of Data Center Hawk. It's funny, we were talking about you guys this morning on a conference call about, hey, how do we manage capacity and knowledge about markets and should we? I was like, hold on a minute, guys. Why would we try to do this when Data Center Hawk already does all this? So it's kind of funny that you and I are recording today and you guys came up in conversation while we were doing it. So you run sales for Data Center Hawk. We know that, but tell us a little bit about you. Where'd you grow up?

How'd you get in the data center business? Give us a little bit about what we want to know about you. Sure. I would say, how far back do you want to go? I'll, I'll. Yeah. Go all the way back. Born and raised. Yeah, that's right. So. It's a great way to start. The only tie-in I'll make is it's not a data center time, but it could become one is I've got this, you can barely see it on screen there, this little anchor bracelet. And I'm not a big bracelet guy, but I'm trying it out. I grew up originally in Connecticut, uh, age zero, zero

to eight. And the only reason that's important is because my dad worked at the sub base in Groton there. And that's where we were three weeks ago. They're commissioning a new sub called the USS Idaho that we all went. So my dad had done some work at Hughes X Navy. And that's where I really grew up was in Idaho. And so there's another naval base in Idaho that's not important. It's a whole rabbit trail I could go down, but I won't. I was going to say Connecticut and Idaho.

We are kind of on opposite ends of the world there. 100%. And you wouldn't think there'd be any connection between the two, but the Navy is the connection. Yeah, okay. Anyway, so spent my formative years in Idaho. Went to the University of Idaho. Buy and large. Vandals?

Go Vandals. Come on, Vandals. That's right. Wreck them, Vandals. I've been on the Vandal campus. Okay. I'd love to know why you were in Moscow, Idaho for a Vandal visit. Yeah. I've got a friend of mine that lives

in Coeur d'Alene. I always worry I'm going to say it wrong. That's right. That's where I grew up. I fly into, what's the airport? Spokane. Spokane, yeah. And drive over to Coeur d'Alene. And then we went and stayed up at Priest Lake, maybe?

Yep. Yep. Yeah. So got a friend that moved from Dallas up there and had gone up to visit he and his family several times, especially down here when it's a million degrees. Yeah. In July and August, we go up to Idaho. Yeah. We try and go up.

My parents' sister still lived there. We try and go up in the summer, especially. And it's so nice there. I mean, it's middle of July. You could be in the 50s. You could be in the 40s. You could be in the 80s. It's amazing. So that's where I grew up is right by Coeur d'Alene. Yeah. I got a great Coeur d'Alene, Idaho story for you. So I go up there. It's summer of 19. My kids are both in college and we go to spend some time just to get out of the heat. It's July. And we're joking about how incredibly beautiful the weather is. And we wake up and it's like 65 degrees and it's going to get up to 80. And we're in line at the grocery store, getting some stuff to take out to the lake house where we're spending the week. And there's this burly, clearly manual labor gentleman in front of us talking to the cash register, the person who's checking him out, saying that he's headed home because his job site has been closed due to the heat wave.

That it was going to be 81 today and that they couldn't go to the job site. And here we are. I'm literally wearing a hoodie. We're listening to this conversation, talking about how great it is. I'm like, you know, it's just all a matter of perspective. It's all a matter of perspective. Yeah, my parents are coming to visit this weekend. And my dad was texting me asking if it was, quote, flip-flop weather,

if he should bring his flip-flops. And I said, well, we'll be in the 60s, 70s and 80s here, but like the 30s is flip-flop weather for you, dad. And so needless to say, he's packing the flip-flops. So, all right. So went to college at university of Idaho and then graduated very shortly, met my wife in college, although she's from Florida. So we did the long distance dating. I moved to Florida, then we moved to Texas for a job. So wait, wait, wait, she's from Florida, but went to school in Idaho? No, we met the summer of 2002 in California, San Diego. Okay. Yep. Got it. Some people are familiar with Campus Crusade. Now it's called Crew. They do summer projects across the world and we know well yeah

there we go so ended up in dallas 2006 and for the first probably 14 years i was doing work in the pension space i know very exciting oh only that the only reason i bring that up is because the backdrop and i did kind of everything and anything in that space and then i got to know david liggett who i think most people certainly know, and most people probably listen to this podcast, know Data Center Hawk founder. He said, we were, we knew each other. We're from the same areas that go to the same church. And he's like, Hey, you know, I started this company. It's getting a little bit bigger. He's still wearing basically every hat in the organization and said, Hey, you know, love for you to come join me. And I said, I'd love to come give it a shot. And so it was a little bit of a leap of faith.

And, you know, it was, it's been, it was five years ago now, which seems insane. Watermark still? Yep. Yeah. All right. Yep. Watermark Church.

We are in their East Tower as we speak. So they've got an office building that they lease out. I remember there was like an incubator. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was going to say there was some business incubator sort of stuff going on in the tower next door. That's right. That's right. No, that's 100% right. And so that's where we are. I've done more hours of, we don't call it CR, but regeneration in that tower than you can count. Seven years Leighton Regen.

No kidding. That's awesome, man. I would say probably two or three floors below you. I think we did it on the third floor. I don't remember. Yeah. No, that's exactly right. And that's an amazing ministry that's grown a ton and see a ton of people go through that and just like really, really dramatically, radically impacts their life.

Yeah. For the good. Truly transformative stuff that goes on. Yeah. That you get to observe in the context of Regen. So yeah, I know exactly where you are. Yeah. So that was 2019. Had no idea what the data center was, had no idea what sales was. And David took a chance on me, which to his credit was extremely generous. And we just kind of gave me a lot of room to figure it out as he had done for the

previous five years. And again, 2019 in the data center space was, I think we thought this is a growing industry, but there wasn't the same sentiment as we all have today. The industry has grown immensely since then. And we've tried to figure out, so I was the sixth or seventh employee. And 2019 wasn't a bad year, but I mean, man, it's radically changed in five years. Yes. So as a company at Data Center, I think there was still some, not the same confidence we have today is like, is this me to market need? And now we feel very, you know, very confident that like we've been validated. Obviously the industry has grown tremendously. And so I feel extremely fortunate to have been kind of gotten on board when I did.

And it's been a really sweet ride and all the challenges that go along with growth, you know it. But it's been fun. So that leads up today and here we are. Yeah, it's interesting. We've just finished up the first quarter. We have these conversations about, hey, what's the year look like and how we doing and where are we going? And I truly think it would be, I would be hard pressed to come up with another industry that if you want to be in an industry where the wind is at your back, and I joke occasionally, there is someone selling buggy whips in America today, right? That's still an industry. It looks a lot different than it

looked in 1900, but it's still an industry. Someone is selling buggy whips. And I'm just glad I don't have to pay for my, you know, mortgage selling buggy whips. And I'm grateful to be on the data center visit. And I'd have a hard time coming up with an industry where I go, you know, there is so much wind at our backs compared to this industry. And you know, people could say, well, AI, well, yeah, but AI is winded our back, right? I mean, if I had to pick some industry to be in, I'd have a hard time come up with a list of ones that are two or three that are better than where we are. It's just feel super lucky, super blessed, super fortunate to get in the data center space 11 years ago now. Yeah. I mean, we're selling pickaxes to the miners, or you are. And we're selling, I don't know what we're selling, but it's something to you guys.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. You're selling the maps for the guys buying the pickaxes. There we go. Sure. There you go. Exactly. That's right. Great analogy. Can I borrow that? Yeah, absolutely. For sure. But yeah, I mean, that's right. I spent before 11 years in the data center business, I've spent, you know, as much as I hate to admit, almost three decades sealing data centers full of computers. And just amazing. I never once walked in a data center and said, you know, who runs this place? Who owns this? It just wasn't part of the narrative, right? It was so wrapped up in the technology and in the software and the integration and the network and the storage and the applications. I never thought about the building and the real estate and really just got lucky to get in that side of the business. And now, you know, I watch these, you know, different releases of technology and think, I mean, at the end of the day, I just want there to be more and more ones and zeros. I don't care whose app it is. I don't care whose switch it is.

I don't care whose storage it is. I don't care whose server it is. I don't care whose processor it is. Just get some more of it. And I think that if you think the internet's going to work out, which it looks like it is, and that technology is going to continue to proliferate, I think it's hard to find a better spot to be than what you and I both get to do every day.

Yeah, I think there's so many different ways to express that. And it's very easy for people to understand. You say, hey, just look at your life now versus five years ago versus 10 years ago. Everything is exponentially more electronic than it was. And if you fast forward that, there's a blog, the Wait But Why guy, he talks about the amount of time it takes to blow somebody's mind by technology. So from the year zero to 1000 AD, probably minds would be blown. 1000 to 500, maybe you start to see cities evolve 1500, 1800. Okay. You're getting closer. 1800, 1900. Sure. 1900 to 1980, 1980 to 2000. So that timeframe is shortening.

And you think you show some of the AI applications we have today to someone, even just a year or two ago, and they're going, no way that video is not real. Or that video has to be real. That video can't be fake. And you go, yeah, sure enough, it's fake. You can't think something and have a computer see it. So it's very easy for, I think the layman, I don't mean that term derogatively, but people who are outside of our space to see how this will continue to grow at an extremely fast rate. And then again, there's several like calling big rocks. You could point to like all the cloud service guys and everybody else that are spending a ton of money. But then this upstream of that, people want more technology. They just do. And at the end of the day, that points towards additional data center capacity.

Yeah. I just tell people all the time, we're just warehouses for ones and zeros. That's all we are. We're just warehouses for ones and zeros. And our hope is that there's more ones and zeros tomorrow. And I think that that's a pretty solid thing to hang your hopes on is that there'll be more ones and zeros tomorrow than there are today. And to your point, the world seems to have an insatiable appetite for new ways to solve problems. So my technology days go far back enough that we used to use this phrase called the killer app. And what happened is, you know, you design a computer and the computer to have all kinds of capabilities, but there were no applications to lay on top of it, to use all the computer's capabilities. And we would wait for the next, what we called killer app, app that

would use up all the compute power so that you'd have to design another computer. And then we called it the killer app cycle. Right. And so I started selling computers in the 80s. And I tell my kids this all the time, we used to joke, someday there'll be a computer on everybody's desk. That was a marketing campaign. Someday there'll be a computer on every desk. We kind of blew through the killer app phase, 80s, 90s, 2000s. And then technology got to be pretty ubiquitous, at least in the developed world in the early 2000s and dot com. And I feel like this AI thing, to bring that phrase back, I feel like AI is about to be the first killer app in years that has so much capability and so much potential and so much unique opportunity to the marketplace that we're going to eat up all the compute power today, right? And I think that's what you see driving

a great deal of the demand in the business that you monitor and in the business that we try to support, right? Is that there's so much functionality coming, so much capability coming that there's lots of hand-wringing about where are we going to put it? How are we going to power it? How are we going to reject the heat? How are we going to connect to it? I mean, there's a lot. AI feels to me to be unlike a killer app that drove some functionality on my computer. It's the killer app for the industry, right?

It's got such incredible capabilities. And you for the industry, right? It's got such incredible capabilities. And you alluded to one, right? This total video is just created out of thin air, right? The capabilities of what's coming, I think, are hard to get our arms around. I don't think anyone understands. I get to be on lots of analyst calls and there's no, well, inference does this and model building does that. And isn't this going to be less? And isn't that going to be more? And I'm like, I don't think anybody knows. I mean, not that there aren't smart people guessing, but I don't think anyone knows.

I think the only thing we know is there's going to be a lot more. Yeah, and I had never thought of it in those terms about the hardware being designed for something that would then be exceeded by the software demands. But it almost seems like when you explain it that way, it does feel like those two are being designed in tandem. Like NVIDIA is building GPUs to do very specific things.

Yes. To support very specific applications. So that seems like a much more synergistic cycle where people understand the architecture of the GPUs and they're building software to run very specifically on that. But I don't know if you saw any of the clips from the GTC conference, NVIDIA's GTC conference. I didn't, no, no. Just some of the applications that are being designed, well, specifically around data centers, like the concept of building a digital twin

of a data center and basically being able to, you know, continue to eliminate any delay or human error in the process. And that's one where people go, hey, how is the AI impacting data center design? Well, there's a whole side of density and the actual design of the facility, but then the implementation of the design

could be rapidly accelerated with some of these AI programs and then everything else there, being able to basically test every single drug DNA combination known to man, near infinite, I'm using air quotes, but you can just chew through that and build these or design drugs, DNA, whatever the case may be. So those things alone, I mean, those are massive applications that benefit every single person

on the globe benefits from that. So that, again, if you're trying to make the case for the continued demand, I don't think it's hard. And I also think it's really exciting. I'm like, I can't wait to see what's going to churn out of this. And honestly, you get an iPhone upgrade, a software upgrade, and they just bake in some stuff that typical to Apple's MO, you didn't think you needed. And then you start using it and you're like, how did I ever live without this? How did I ever do this before? Yeah, yeah. Exactly. The function, I mean, it's a silly one and I know that most people are aware, but the idea of maps. So I drive my trucks for 10 years and my previous truck that I drove for 10 years, I sold to my son. So that truck is now 21 years old because he's driven it for 11 years when I

sold it to him. And I was with him the other day and I opened his glove box and I got a stack of maps in there. And you just think about, well, yeah, of course, you know, I was driving that truck 11 years ago. I use maps to think that that's not, it's not even a thing anymore. I mean, I know you can still buy a mask, but I mean, no one thinks, oh, the way I'm going to get there is not, hey, do you have a, no, the way you're going to get there is not, hey, do you have a, no, the way you're going to get there is you're going to punch it into Waze or Google Maps or, you know, no one thinks, hey, I'm going to figure out how to get there by, you know, a map, but it's not even a thought.

Yeah. The glove box time capsule. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's exactly right. The glove box time capsule. I like that.

Yeah. I mean, I still remember like looking up the map in the back of the phone book and kind of writing it down on a piece, but this is probably pre-internet. And then post-internet you go look it up on MapQuest. If anybody, RIP MapQuest, maybe they're still around. You put it in the start and you print it out. Oh, my dad, my dad would get so mad because it was a full page of color, you know,

with all the different directions on it. And then the next page was the actual turn by turn, but all the little directional errors were color. My dad would get so mad. Anyways. So I like the glove box time caps. I got another funny, what you just forget. So my in-laws are retired and they live at Myrtle Beach, two golf courses out there.

And a few years back, I'm at the beach with my in-laws and I wanted to schedule another tea time that I was down there for. And I told my mother-in-law, I said, I can't find, their internet was down and poor cell service owners. I said, I can't find their phone number. And she says, well, did you look it up? And I'm like, man, I just told you, I can't look it up. The internet's down. And she pulls, opens the drawer, hands me a book and she told you, I can't look it up. The internet's down. And she pulls, opens the drawer, hands me a book and she goes, no, did you look it up? And she handed me a phone book. And I'm like, oh yeah, I guess you can still do that. Yeah. Grandparents are great time

capsules. They just, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And that phone book is right here. It's right there in the phone book. Look under G, Raymond. It's in there. That's hilarious. Gosh, that's amazing. That's not been that long. You said 11 years ago, you've been using paper maps. Well, that's what I mean. It's just, let's say just one truck ago, 10 years ago, there were maps in my pickup truck and completely normal. It's amazing how much change.

All right. So there's lots changed and we can talk about it. I do want to go down a path here for a minute around how much the world is growing. Right. When you read about what's going on in the industry, there's lots of talk about. I mean, it's funny. I have CNBC on in my office every day. Even on CNBC now, they say, hey, how is the world going to provide enough energy for data centers? The demand for data centers, the demand for energy to support data centers. So I'd love to just talk for a minute about what do we think, just two guys that are tangentially in the industry trying to think about where's the power going to come from? Is the answer that we're just going to move to secondary and tertiary markets and soak up the power there? Or is the answer we're going to get more generation? You guys touch more markets than we do. How do you see the power problem getting solved from data center hawks perch? Ooh, look at that. Data center hawks perch.

I didn't do that on purpose. Yeah. E all of the above, Alex. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's semi-joking. But yeah, I mean, really it's who can be creative. I think that Amazon purchase of that Susquehanna facility was a good data point of companies that are, I think, more and more willing to get creative around that.

Yes, secondary markets is sure, but that's probably got, there's a cap on that. These smaller markets can only support so much. And it's easy for them to go from like 50, call it 50 megawatts to 300, a lot harder to go from 300 to a thousand or whatever. Like there's some scale challenges that come into play. You know, I did say before we jumped on this call, like I'm, as I mentioned at the top of the call, my dad was on a nuclear submarine in the seventies and they've had nuclear technology and subs since the fifties. And so I just tend to not really buy the they're not safe argument. Now, a nuclear sub is probably a little bit safer than maybe call it commercially developed product. But in general, they are safe. And so, you know, I think the PR problems or legislative problems that nuclear faces could potentially be overcome by the economic benefits over time. Anyway, so that's my hope. Again, not a nuclear energy specialist, but I think that plus the whole non, we're not going to shut down the plant in Michigan

data point, I think are very encouraging for the industry as a whole. Yeah. So I don't want to sound like a nuclear energy shill when you go through the long list of Not Your Father's Data Center sponsors, none of them are nuclear power companies. But when I think about the concerns, especially for our customers, the big customers in our industry, their concerns around carbon, the only economically viable answer today at scale that has a minimal carbon impact is a nuclear answer. And that I tend to think that markets figure out things that make the most sense. It takes time, but they figure them out, whether regulatory changes have to take place or whether people's emotional feelings have to take place around safety. I got it. Fukushima and Three Mile Island, myself and Chernobyl,

all are in the collective memory. I think the notion that, hey, we've got to do this at scale and we've got to do this without adding to the global carbon emissions, I think it makes a lot of sense. Wherever you fall in the concerns about our environment, I don't know how you think nuclear doesn't make sense. It's got a great safety track record in spite of those three accidents. I think there's reasons to explain all of those safety in terms of human life. And man, as far as the ability to generate nonstop clean energy and getting to see, so Microsoft made an announcement that the AWS

announcement and then the Michigan announcement, I think all three of those help set the tone that our industry is going to start heading in that direction. And I hope the market pressures make it easier in the U.S. and around the globe to fund, commission, whatever all the things have to happen in title, get those plants online. Because we're going to need more generation. those plants online because we're going to need more generation. The bottom line is we're going to need more generation. We're running out globally for sure. Yeah. I think one of the major trends we're seeing is just like the increasing deal size. So this is kind of tangentially related to nuclear, but years ago it was 20, 30 megawatts was a big deal. Now it was 72, then it was 100. And now we're seeing multiple hundred megawatt deals get signed. We're hearing rumors of 1,000 to 1,500 megawatt deals, which I

think then that helps the cause of nuclear. And because if you're trying to build a 300 megawatt data center in Michigan, great example, take our Michigan example, you're maybe not going to commit to a level that would make the economic sense for a nuclear plant to be unshuttered. Now, if you're doing a thousand megawatt campus or 2000 megawatt campus, that makes that easier. So I, again, very light Googling, but found this list of, you know, 12 nuclear plants that have been shuttered since 2013. And 11 of those 12 were citing basically economic concerns. They were losing money, power prices, we couldn't support the operation. I think some of those economic models may change over time as we sort of, quote unquote, run out of traditional, whether that's coal or traditional renewables.

So I think some of the mathematics is changing. Yeah, no question. And you see somebody that has a load ramp that gets them to a gigawatt, you know, on your distribution and on your grid and on your generation. And it starts to go, okay, that's a big customer. And that makes a difference. I mean, that changes anybody's math. I mean, I know you and I sit in Texas and that changes the math for her, you know, a gigawatt. So those size deals, I think, are making things that weren't economically viable literally three years ago look different. And so much of that is being driven by AI.

I'm going to ask you a power-related question and no right or wrong answer, but just something to think about. I see here as a data center provider, often in the market, man, you guys use a lot of power. Man, to support you guys, you're really taxing our grid. You're taxing our power. Oh my goodness. So I hear a little bit of this, your industry uses lots of power. I tend to think of our industry doesn't use a lot of power. And I know you go, wait a minute, Raymond, that didn't make any sense. We just talked about scale. We're not using the power. I'm providing utility power to someone who's providing a service, right? And the analogy I've used before, no one drives by the airport and goes, man, how much power is that airport?

Do you know how much power that airport uses? No one says that. They show up at the airport and they go, I'm going to Nana's house, Yeah. Right? They don't associate the airport with using electricity and what's its carbon footprint and all that. It's the airport. It provides a service. It gets your packages onto FedEx. It gets you to Nana's house. It gets Nana to come home to you, right?

That's the way we see an airport. That's the emotions we have with an airport. And I think the data center is too ethereal still. People don't go, well, let me, what do I get out of there? Right? Because at the end of the day, all the things you and I do on our cell phone all runs through a data center somewhere. So you, to stick with the airport, you ordered your plane ticket. You did that through your phone that ran through a data center. You took an Uber to the airport that ran through your phone that ran through a data center, right? When you got to

your hotel, you booked a hotel that you did through your phone and it ran through a data center, right? When you booked a hotel, you did through your phone and it ran through a data center. When you got to your hotel, you didn't like the room service, so you ordered Uber Eats that went through a data center, right? All of these functions, yes, the data center is using energy, but it's really using energy just like the airport takes you somewhere or brings someone to you. The data center is providing all of these services and and i'm not trying to i'm not trying to dodge the data center uses energy i'm trying to think is there a way for us as an industry to to recast and say hey look at the services we're providing uh instead of look at the energy we're consuming and not in a way to distract but to say you know to to connect the

dots more than anything i guess yeah i know, I know. I think it's a, there is a perception challenge and I'd almost liken it to, you know, when we speak to investors in the space, they, there's no consensus in my opinion as how data centers are treated from an investment standpoint. We hear like kind of a third infrastructure, a third real estate, and a third private equity. And so I do like the term digital infrastructure. I would worry if I was the PR person for this industry as a whole, I would worry that term would then treat us like a commodity. And I don't think that's how we would love to be perceived. But to your point, it is very much nearly in the same category as like a water or sewer utility or roads

that it's become that as far as daily use, dependence on it for more or less everything we do. This call is being recorded over digital infrastructure. I mean, you name it. Most of our cars are connected. Certainly everybody has a smartphone. And so I'd like to think there's still room. There's room for us to get some credit for providing that, again, not a public service, but almost a public service while giving us the ability to differentiate ourselves company by company and have additional value provided on top of that. Because again, I think a water main as an infrastructure, a piece of infrastructure or a toll road is not necessarily the comp we're looking for.

That makes sense. Yeah. Certainly from an investor and financial analysis standpoint, I get where you're saying not the comp we're looking for, but I do think the viewing data centers as critical infrastructure to a community is where we're headed. And you use toll road and water main or water treatment plant. Those are critical infrastructure. And you use Toll Road and Water Main or Water Treatment Plant. Those are critical infrastructure. And I don't think data centers, at some point in our future, data centers are going to be viewed as much as critical infrastructure as those things. A harbor, an airport, a train station, train lines, train tracks, freeways, water, electrical distribution. It is that vital to the way of life, at least in the developed world. And I think we'll get treated more and more like infrastructure and viewed as long-term stable infrastructure.

And as we see the revolution that's coming from AI and how dependent every industry starts to become on what tech does for them. I think that's only going to accelerate us being viewed as critical infrastructure for a community, not just critical infrastructure for technology companies. Yeah. I guess what I was trying to get at. Bill Klayman said recently that it's, what did he say? He said something about technology is the hope of mankind, something to that effect. And he almost said it's on the cheek, but I don't think he was really joking because

to your point, yes, everything is increasingly dependent. And I think we've done a really good job at maintaining uptime to the point that you, sometimes you lose power at your house. Occasionally you lose water and that's extremely annoying. And you lose internet. It's extremely annoying, but the industry has done a good job of maintaining those services, you know, with redundancy and everything else so that people haven't, you know, experienced. So when you think about the bridge that recently collapsed in Baltimore and how disruptive that will be to

hundreds of thousands, millions of people's daily commute for the next years until they can rebuild it. I can't think of an, uh of an analogous event with the internet. Like, can you think of something now, everything you do is going to take twice as long to do because some critical line of communication was out. So you and I both in Texas, this got crystallized for me during our snowmageddon. What was that? Three years ago when, you know, at least at my house, we had no power for eight days, right? It might be four years ago. Was it 2020?

I don't remember. COVID and all that runs together. But that for me, Chris, so eight days with no electricity, you know, you begin to appreciate in electricity the foundation building block for the digitization of our world. No electricity. It was shocking to me all the things in my life that didn't work, right? I mean, there was no redundant, if we didn't have electricity, I didn't have a redundant system now, you know, to manage and run so many other things. It was shocking how nothing, if my life worked, right? Couldn't keep food cold, so no refrigeration, no freezer, right? So food all went bad. Couldn't stay up with the news, couldn't run the internet,

couldn't work. Your phone only held a charge for a day, right? And then couldn't charge it again. I mean, there were so many things that electricity infrastructure tied into. And I think that's where digital infrastructure is going, that it's going to be that vital. And I think that's where digital infrastructure is going, that it's going to be that vital. And I got it, that it's run on electricity, but I think it's going to be as vital as electricity, which is why I tend to make the argument it is very infrastructure centric and how the world will be quickly incapable of functioning without the digital infrastructure that supports it very, very quickly. It was funny. I was usually compared it. I went to Africa on a mission trip and someone

came running up to me taking pictures with a cell phone in a village that had no electricity. I thought that was very odd. And so it was like, hey, why do you have a cell phone? Where do you get a cell phone? Long story short, they bring batteries in to charge everyone's cell phone. And then there's a generator and a cell tower. And they said, hey, they did that for communications because they never had landlines. So they just skipped over the landline things. So there's no plumbing in the city. There's no electrical distribution in the city.

But there's a cell tower because they dropped one cell tower. And then people just shipped batteries in and everyone could communicate. And that was stunning to me that that piece of technology fundamentally changed the way that community communicated with one cell tower. They had a generator that ran the cell tower and batteries. It's just crazy. Yeah. I think we're a little bit spoiled. So I would bet that when your power went out for eight days and you didn't have home internet, now you probably go, you could get cell-based internet. Again, once again, that's kind of a testament to the space that- For as long as your cell phone has power, that's the problem.

For as long as your cell phone has power, yeah. But yeah. And so yes, power is the one thing that drives all of that. But the power grid, the water grid, the traffic lights, you name it, is increasingly dependent on the digital infrastructure to run. So to your point, I mean, I 100 percent agree like it's reached the level of public utility as far as a criticality in nature. I wonder, you know, I again, this probably beyond the scope of this conversation, but like, does it make sense? Do you think that means we'll see like publicly owned and operated data centers or digital infrastructure? Will that become a state utility? Right, right. And what does that mean for the space? Yeah. Whether it's the infrastructure or even all the way down to the compute, right? I mean,

I don't think either you or I, or maybe even our kids will live to see that, but I definitely think you could see that. And that's kind of where I was going with water and power lines and whatnot. I think you can see the digital infrastructure becomes a key and it's, oh, this is the technology solution for this community. It gets provided this way. And it's a quasi government, you know, rate case like the power generation or like water, right? You know, probably not in either of our lifetimes, but I think you can see that end up being a thing. Yeah, you can see where it's going. Well, I'm going to completely change the subject. We both are talking about, hey, this is a great industry to be in and we feel fortunate. Also have a hard time accepting the fact that we have to do a conference every year in Hawaii,

which I think is the last time you and I were ever together. So I feel really fortunate that we have to go to Hawaii every January to talk about data centers. That's a tough road to hoe. It's the bird and we bear. I'm willing to carry that bird for a few more years at least. Thank you for your service. I just want that to be recognized and I'm willing to do that for the industry. Yeah. Go to Hawaii in January. In January. Yeah, exactly. It's a really rough one, especially when it's 40 and windy here and everyone else coming from everywhere else that we're just living it up in the 80 degree weather with the Mai Tai and the sand. Yeah, it's Yeah. I appreciate that you did not mention seeing me at

the airport with my golf clubs. I appreciate that you did not mention that. I was there working the entire time. Yeah, you were there. Yeah, exactly. There was just files and presentations and extra computers in there. Just looked like a golf bag. That's exactly right. It looked like a golf bag, but it was just gear that I handed out to people. It was just shots. Swag. Yeah, exactly. You were diligently doing your work. If anyone's listening, he was working hard, even in the airport. That's right. Thank you. Even in the airport. Even in the airport. Red-eye flight, he's talking data centers to the guy next to him. Exactly right. I asked him, I said, hey, do you need any power in, let's say, Idaho?

Yeah, that's right. I was definitely engaged. Yeah, good stuff. Well, man, we're lucky to be in the business we're in. I'm going to ask you one more, and I'm going to put you on the spot. You got five years, so you kind of got a very educated view of the world, but still kind of fresh take on our industry. Tell me one thing that surprised you in your first five years in this space. Again, this is coming from the pension space. So in the pension world, it's a dying

industry. It's a dying, everybody's shutting stuff down. Everybody's freezing stuff. Anyway, so to come there, I don't know how much it surprised me, but the optimism in the space, I would say the optimism and the ingenuity in that it seems like anytime there is some type of problem, it's going to get solved. I have every confidence in the world that power challenges, the design challenges, any type of regulatory thing, it will get solved. And not just because people are throwing money at it or they're bullying their way through it, but that there's just so much in a really healthy way, like entrepreneurship and creativity in this space that has been, if you would, probably before I joined this space, again, I think we had a data center at my old company and the guys who ran it were kind of like IT dorks. Right, right, right. It is kind of this boring thing. And that has not been the case at all. It's extremely exciting. And the people I've met in the space are really, really cool. Some of the people we've had on our podcast, some of the people you had on your podcast,

just the people in the space are really fun that I've really enjoyed. And it's far exceeded my expectations from an industry standpoint. Yeah. Optimism. That's a good way to say it, right? I appreciate that an industry that has looked up for as long as it has and continues to look up, it is fun to be around, right? I get asked occasionally, why did I leave the technology business that I left 11 years ago? I would just say in the first 11 years I was in that business, we bought four

companies. And then the next four years I was in that business, we bought four companies. And then the next four years I was in that business, we bought 18 companies. The only way to grow was to acquire our competition because the industry wasn't growing anymore. And so buying companies and firing people was not an optimistic way to go to work every day. I hated it. And it was one of the reasons I chose to get out and stumbling into the data center business 11 years ago was just really, really lucky. I'm not going to say stumble, that shows disrespect. I don't know if you'll even listen to this, but the head of sales at Stack Infrastructure, Ty Miller, recruited me to Digital Realty and did a wonderful job convincing me to leave the tech business and get in the data

center business. So I don't want to do disrespect to Ty to say I stumbled into it. He recruited hard to convince me to leave and come to the data center business. And boy, am I fortunate for it. So glad to be in the business. Thank you, Ty. Tip of the hat to you for pushing hard to get me to join the space. And optimism is a great way to describe it, Mike. It's a fun space with lots of talented people that are smart, got lots of capital, solving

really hard problems, but doing it with a smile on their face because, man, the future is awfully bright and we're both lucky to be here. Yeah, I think from our standpoint, we're not out there building data centers. So the challenge for us is to figure out what is the most important thing, what our customers care most about beyond just some of the core things we do. I feel like there's 10 to 100 other things we could go do that would add value to the space. And that's a really good problem to have. And I don't know if y'all facing the same thing, but it's, there is some, some is an abundance of opportunity, which is again, a really healthy thing and something that it gets me excited every day. Yeah. All right. Mike Netzer, VP of sales at data center Hawk. Before we go, you've got to get Rhett back on camera. I know he's on early, but I'm sure we're not

going to get him on the show. Rhett, can you swing around and say hi? Come on. Before we go, you've got to get Rhett back on camera. I know he's on early, but I'm sure we're not going to get him on the show. Rhett, can you swing around and say hi? Come on. There you go, Rhett. Rhett Gale, ladies and gentlemen. By the way, now that he's been on screen,

his agent, you know, will be sending us a contract. We have to pay him now that he made it on screen. He's a union guy. We know that. Yeah, so yeah, just want to make sure

we got him on screen. That's great. Well, man, Mike, I really appreciate getting to chat with you. It's always fun to hear what you guys are doing over there. As you know, we think the world of David and what you guys are doing. And we appreciate the partnership and appreciate your insights.

And thank you for joining me. Yeah, absolutely. Raymond, the feeling's mutual. This was a ton of fun. And thanks for having me on.