NPR Music - Jack Antonoff on surviving grief, regret and working out life's uncertainties

Episode Date: June 3, 2024

The producer, singer and songwriter talks with Rachel Martin, host of NPR's new podcast Wild Card, about some of life's biggest questions. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Hey there, everybody. It's All Songs Considered from NPR Music. I'm Robin Hilton. And today I've got a conversation that I think you're going to like. It's an episode of a new podcast from NPR called Wildcard, hosted by my friend Rachel Martin. The conversation that you're going to hear today is with a musician whose work you probably know something about. Jack Antonoff, he may be the busiest, most sought-after collaborator in the music industry today. His own band, Bleachers, just put out a self-titled album. this spring. I'm on my head and he's begging you to kiss me. When I'm not around, do you even miss me?

So on wildcard, Jack Antonoff actually isn't going to talk about. writing music or what it's like to craft, you know, an unforgettable pop hook or what kind of gear you need to perfectly recreate the sound of 80s pop. Wildcard is an interview show where Rachel asks guests to play a game. And the game is about life's biggest questions. And I mean, really big questions. Like, you know, what is proof that someone really knows you? Or does the idea of an infinite universe excite you or scare you? You know, topics that can be a little intimidating, maybe even a little painful at times, but in a good way, of course, which is why Rachel made the show into a game. The questions on Wild Card come at random from a specially

designed deck of cards. So anyway, today you're going to get to know a totally different side of Jack Hansenov, like really get to know him. You're going to come out on the other side of this understanding a whole lot more about the guy who has been named producer of the year at the Grammys for three years in a row. And if you like what you hear, there are a whole lot of other great conversations where this one came from with actors like Issa Ray and Chris Pine and comedian Jenny Slate. Just follow Wildcard wherever you get podcasts. Hey, it's Rachel. Just a heads up.

This episode contains a teenyy bit of cursing. How has grief shaped your life? Entirely. Entirely. I almost see it as like an emotional lens. you know, like a contact lens or something that goes over your eye. It's not like a thing that happened that you sometimes feel. It's like it's how you see things.

I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wildcard. The game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card one through three. Questions about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shaped them. You know, I'm not someone who I'm not really doing a bit, you know? I really feel very sincere about the things of doing and saying, and I think a big part of that is just being confronted with time and fragility.

There is this unfortunate trait among some people who work in radio. We tend to edit conversations in real time. I know this because I am guilty of it. It is a super annoying habit that I try to keep to myself, but because I interview people for a living, when I'm having just like a normal conversation with my spouse or my friends or anyone, And they start telling me a particularly long story. I think to myself, oh, you should really leave that out.

And yep, that can go. So look at that. Edit, edit, edit. Sometimes you do a thing for a living and it gets stuck in you. And you can't help yourself but to keep doing it. Case in point, famed music producer Jack Antonoff. He's won 10 Grammys, most prominently, for his work producing Taylor Swift. But he's also work with Lana Del Rey, Lord, and St. Vincent.

Jack Antonoff's Easter. is attuned to details in this superhuman way. He wants to shape things, fix them, channel them. And like my constantly editing brain, his producing cannot be contained by his work. In fact, when I was talking to him, he had this moment where he sort of started producing our conversation. This was recorded early on in our piloting of the show,

and we still hadn't worked out all the kinks. The rules in particular, we have the skip, and then we just had, you can make me answer first. No clever name for that. that one. As you'll hear, Jack heard that and immediately he went, so I get one skip and a flip. And I was like, oh, of course, a flip. You just made that so much better. I'm using that. And we have ever since. Thank you, Jack. That quickness, that ingenuity. It's what makes him a great producer. And it is also what made me excited to play the game with him. Jack Antonoff, I am so happy that you're here.

Thanks for having me. Yeah. So we're going to do a lot of things. We're going to talk. But I did bring you here to play this game. So we're going to do that in a few minutes. Okay. You cool with that? I'm cool with any of it. All right. All right.

We'll see how it goes. So your band Bleachers has a new album out. And this is you as the artist, right? As the performer. How did you know it was time to do that? Simply because I'm called to write. Mm-hmm. But they take me a long time to make.

And songs come rarely. And when they do, it's glorious, but they're not always attached to albums. So it's like you find yourself writing and then. it's kind of like all of a sudden you're like, oh, there it is. But it's always, it's always comes from like a distant place in you. Like I always say that you don't write a lot of things you know because they're a little boring. You write a lot of things that you're unsure of. Hmm.

So what, what were you unsure of in the last couple of years that you needed to work out this way? Well, now I can answer it clearly. If you asked me during it, I would have talked to you for four hours about all the different aspects of my life. Now that I'm all done, I understand what the hell I was saying, which is I was unsure. of how to move on with my life. So I lost my sister when I was 18 and I've written so much about grief and the past in the future. What has happened, what could happen is endless back and forth.

And what I realize now is that I was working really hard and having a lot of fear about how to live in any sort of present way. And does that mean I'm giving up on her memory or something? So through the lens of the day. deepening relationship with my band, my partner, all these things, my relationship with my audience, of these sort of deepening relationships, I was finding myself more and more and more present. It's a beautiful thing. Getting married is obviously a part of that. A lot of my collaborators and artwork is a part of that. And then the real dark side is, well, if I have this presence

about me in my life and I'm not just someone who sort of, as I say, tribute lives, Am I letting go of this memory, this person, this honoring, right? And so that's the heart and soul of the album. Easy to say now that, you know, you take two years. You're like, yeah, that's what the hell I'm talking about. That's why I'm shouting these things. Yeah. You want to play this game?

So badly. So badly. God, that's exactly the right answer. You've been waiting your whole life to do this, Jack Antonoff. In front of me is a deck of cards. Okay. On each of these cards is a question that I would love for you to answer, okay? I'm going to hold up three at a time and you're going to choose one at random.

There are a few rules. Number one, you get a skip. Cool. If you use your skip, then I'm just going to replace that question with a new one from the deck, okay? Got it. And number two, you can put me on the spot and ask me to answer one of the questions before you do. Got it. So I get one skip and one flip.

Yeah. Oh, my God. A flip. Totally taking that. It's all yours. We're going to break it up into rounds. Round one is about memories, experiences that shaped you. Round two is insights or lessons that you've learned or are learning.

And three is about beliefs, okay, the way that you make sense of the world. And because it's a game, there's a prize when you make it to the end. Oh, no, really? Yeah, totally. Oh, do I know or do we find out? Oh, I'm going to tell you at the end. There has to be an incentive. That's how it works.

Is it food? I'm not telling. I hope it's food. I'm not telling. Okay, you ready? Yeah. All right, round one. This is memories. Pick a card one through three.

Three. What is something about your hometown you've come to appreciate over time? Oh, everything. Softball! Lover of New Jersey. Okay, real answer, though, is the slowness of my hometown. I grew up in New Milford, New Jersey. That's where I was until I was like eight and I just stared at the walls.

All I wanted to do was break out. All I wanted to do is go everywhere and do everything. and tour the world and, you know, make my mark and do all these things. And that slow, slow, slow boredom of where I grew up made my imagination run wild. And I can't recreate it and I can't change it. And I never would. And I'm just happy I got to have it. My life existed in cars waiting for my mom.

mom to do whatever she was doing. I know. My kids today are like, like, come on an errand with me. No, errands, I'm like, you have no idea. That's all we used to do. We used to go on errands and sit in the car and wait for our parents. Okay, three new cards still in the memories round. Pick a card, one through three. Two. If you got a do-over for one decision in your life, what would it be? Do-over for one decision? What would it be? That's a flip. Oh, mine's so heavy. Go for it. So my mom is dying of cancer many years ago now, and she was in hospice.

She was at home with my brother and sister and our extended family. And I left before she died. Oh, yeah. I kept telling myself a story that somebody needed to be with my dad on the other side, and I only had certain days that I could take off from work. And in retrospect, it was because I couldn't handle it. And I, sorry, no, I'm so sad. But, yeah, that's, that's mine, is that I would do that differently.

Yeah, when my sister was dying, I was home when she died, but I remember there was like, when she was getting really sick, I was going to these tour dates. and my family was like, you have to go do them. You have to go do them. And I did them. And it was just sort of like, in hindsight, I was like, who gives a shit? But I think that we have our capacity.

And it's kind of baked in. And then we tell ourselves these stories when we're in these really crazy situations. And it's, I don't know, it's just so fascinating years later. Yeah. Why you do what you do? And I don't, I don't know. People are always like, I don't have regrets in my life because it led me to who I am today and blah, blah, blah. And no, I regret that.

That's bullshit. I think people have just, yeah, obsessively like to say they have no regrets. It's like, well, what does that even mean? Like, everyone has regrets. Right. How is that even possible? Everyone has regrets. We make mistakes.

We look back and think, yeah, I could have managed that in a different way. Yeah, well, I think that's also. baked in like people's obsession with like a version of wellness like no regrets it's like shut up everyone's got regrets it might be more interested to just own them so is that your answer yeah that would be my answer is that I but I would even open that up to a bigger concept there's there's things in life I missed because I was obsessed with my work that I wish I didn't miss yeah weddings yeah weddings Stream holes of lots of stuff, you know.

Part of doing what I do is this baked-in idea that you're going to miss out on all these things, right? And I don't know if it's true. I don't know. I don't know if it had to be that way. I don't know if it had to be true. I think that's a real disservice that we as a culture like do to artists where it's like this idea of like, well, you're just lucky to be here. So, you know, go do this, miss this. Work yourself to the bone.

Don't get paid. You know, that's just sort of. It's the same in journalism, by the way. Is it? Oh, my God. I missed so many things. And I just kept telling myself, if I didn't miss it, then I was going to miss this opportunity. And then...

Yeah, and you start to wonder, you know, this anxiety that's placed on us in certain careers is born from this, you're just lucky to be here mentality. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Jack talks about his rituals around cleanliness. I haven't touched my eyes, no smell their ears, with my hands, unwashed in probably 20 years. Okay, we're in round two now. This is insights. Lessons that you've learned or stuff you're still figuring out. Pick a card one through three. Two. What is proof that somebody really knows you?

Proof that somebody really knows me is if they understand my rituals around feeling clean. Oh, so many, so many follow-ups to ask here. Yeah, and it's not, and it's not basic. Like, it's not like, he's a germaphyp, it's very specific of my definition of what is and isn't clean. Okay, tell me an example of what that looks like for you. My only concern with cleanliness is around my face. Okay.

You can fucking put, smear anything on my body. It's my, I haven't touched my eyes, no smell, their ears with my hands, unwashed in probably 20 years. So it's, so, it's very specific. But how is that even possible? I realized as you were talking, I was like rubbing underneath my eyes. I don't do it because it's very, I'm very scientific. I'm not a germaphobe.

I just, that's how you get sick. That's how germ spread usually. It's not saying I go play. I'm from a ton of people, but I have no need to rub my eyes. My nose, my mouth and my hands is they're not washed. So you don't pick, if you have like a zit or like a little scab on your face, do you you don't feel inclined to pick those things well if i do it would be like after i've washed my hands after a shower or something like that you know you look around you're at a bus stop the a restaurant

anywhere you are and people are just touching their nose touching their eyes and it's like this is how it's all happening and there's no upside besides you know for me for me personally have you always been like that like as a kid yeah but but it's yeah pretty much okay that was fruitful Three new cards. Still in Insights. Pick a card one through three. Three. What feels unreachable to you?

It feels unreachable. I always want to not have a certain amount of anxiety. And it feels a little unreasonable. Feels like it's just kind of baked in. Has that been for a long time? Yeah. I always like, I want to like reach this like pureness of no anxiety. But yeah, but it's still one of the few things in my life that feels unreachable.

Is it, I mean, how does it manifest in your life? Is it a helpful creative force? Does it wield good in your life? Or is it mostly a negative thing? I don't think it's, I think productive things have come from it, but I think it's a net negative. I think, you know, like in the face of it, I've had to figure some things out and create some habits or write some songs that that kind of like fly in the face of it or whatever. But I do think it's a negative.

I don't think it's who I am. I think it's sort of like this weird layer that is a byproduct of things I've been through. I don't like it. It doesn't feel like me. And I think that's why it's anxiety. I think it's because it's like, what is this? This isn't me. I want to beat it and I can't.

Do you go for a run? Do you meditate? Are there things that are sure fireways to get you out of it? There used to be when it was much worse. No, it's not like, when I've had like moments in my life where it was more like debilitating and I had to have methods. Now I'm just like, ah, it's like this old annoying friend or something. I know it.

I know how it goes. I know where it goes. I know it doesn't last forever. I think that's one of the glories of age is how you can. and kind of, like, I love when you get to that point with some of the things that bother you about yourself where you become almost like bored and angry about it. They're like, ah, stop, great. I have that anxious feeling, you know?

Yeah. The separation of self is helpful. But I'd like to just kind of drift past it and that doesn't seem fully possible. We're going to take another quick break, but we'll be back with the beliefs round with Jack Antonoff. Are you by nature an optimist? Is that how people would describe you? I think all songwriters are. Huh.

It's such an optimistic act. How are you feeling? You're doing okay? Yeah, yeah. I'm feeling... Do you need any water? No, no, no. I'm feeling good. Okay. I don't have need to give you, but I just... Okay, thank you for offering for me to go get myself some water. That's exactly right. Okay, so we are now in round three.

This is the beliefs round. Pick a card, one through three. One. One. Well, you talked a little bit about this. how has grief shaped your life? Entirely. Entirely. I feel like you have these things in your life,

some of which are like before you're born, some of which are things that happen. But they're almost like, I almost see it as like, almost like an emotional lens, you know, like a contact lens or something that like goes over your eye emotionally. And it's sort of like, it's not like a thing that happened that you sometimes feel. It's like, it's how you see things now. So like grief is just like, and I assume it'll be the rest of my life. It's just part of how I see things. How old were you when your sister died? I was 18, but she was sick since I was five. So it was a big part of my life. And then, so I just, I don't know, yeah, like like a full.

I almost quantum I find my things in my life a little black and white like this is something that happens and I'm dealing with or this is something that completely colors how I see the world. So how does that manifest in how you see the world? In my life I can understand that I don't have that

kind of grief that's lived with me for that long like all of your adult life and most of your childhood but does it, I mean for me I see a kind of constant impermanence in things. Yeah. Is that how it shows up in your life when you say it shapes everything about it?

I think that things are really fleeting. The thing about sick people, people who are unsure how long they'll get to live, especially kids in that position, I mean, the lack of cynicism, the obsession with creation, joy, love, family, you know, it's just, when you might not have a lot of time on earth, you don't define yourself by the things you hate, quite put very simply. And so that just lives in me.

I'm not someone who moves through the world. I'm not really doing a bit. I'm really feel very sincere about the things I'm doing and saying. And I think a big part of that is just being confronted with time and fragility. And yeah, that was always on the table. especially like when she actually died you know she's dying and actually died when i was 18 so in the years before obviously were pretty tough so it's like there's a pretty powerful life moments i remember

very clearly seeing everyone in my world kind of like planes taking off and i was not you know that's a very specific moment in time when you're supposed to feel like free and like anything's possible yeah well said that you know most people you're graduating high school is this the moment when you're I see. I can do anything in the world. You know, those are really those, as I've heard, because I didn't really have them, those few years you get where you're just sort of like endless stamina, endless possibility. Yeah.

You know, those are the years that everyone talks about. I didn't really get them in the same way. I think that colored my life a lot. How do you feel most connected to her? Probably through my family. That's why we, you know, I think when you have a great loss, People either kind of like run or go with themselves to each other. We definitely do the glue method.

Okay, last set of cards. One. One. I haven't even put the cards out. Okay, hold on. Hold your horses. Okay, one do you think. Okay, yeah, you just went for it. You didn't know, but you just went for it.

Do you think there is order to the universe, or is it all chaos? Oh, it's definitely, definitely order. Where do you see order? I see it everywhere. Sometimes you've got to look for it, but I see a lot of good things happening to people who deserve it. I see a lot of people finding each other in the most random experiences. I just see, I don't know, I'm always looking for opposites. So this conversation about how horrible the world is, rightfully so, sometimes compels me to look for a lot of beauty in it.

So lately I've just seen a lot of beauty. Are you by nature an optimist? Is that how people would describe you? I think all songwriters are. Huh. It's such an optimistic act, even if it's the darkest, hellish, saddest song in the world. The act of doing it and the act of sharing it,

you can't divorce it from the optimism. Otherwise, you wouldn't do it. Especially when it be so easy to not do it. You made it to the end, so you remember that there's a prize. Yes. What have I won? Okay, you have won. A trip in our memory time machine.

Yeah. Yeah. ...a time machine to revisit one moment from your past. So this is a moment. You would not change anything about. You just want to spend a little more time there. Which moment would you choose? I want to be...

The house where we grew up in New Milford, I want to be hanging out on the lot with my... family. I could use some more time there. What does it look like? Do you have trees? Is there good landscaping? It's like one tree that's not good landscaping. It's just like rows of houses, completely mundane, classic suburban setting. I all family is there and we, my neighbor, Jean Marie was tie-dying shirts and she was a little older. And we were running across the street, like tie-dying shirts together and just being as a family. And it was just, yeah, before. or anyone was, anything was too complicated and no one was, yeah, things were just quite simple.

Thank you for playing the game. You tried me. I really loved it. Did you? Yeah. I'm so glad. I did too. I think it's so fun.

I hope you keep the flip. I like that. I like that being my contribution. It was pretty good. Jack Antonoff, award-winning musician, songwriter, producer, his band bleachers has a new self-titled album that is out now. Jack, this was super fun. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

I really appreciate this. If you want to hear more with Jack Antonoff, we've got one more question with him in our bonus episode. It's available right now just for our Wild Card Plus supporters. I've learned like, well, unless I don't mind this being like a saying, maybe don't make this joke. Did you piss someone off recently? I think I'm constantly pissing people.

We've also got more with last week's guest, Poet Laureate Ada Lamone, in that same wildcard, episode. Ada reads a poem of hers that is engraved on a NASA spaceship, and that spaceship is heading to a moon of Jupiter in the fall, which is just totally amazing. Wildcard Plus is a new way to support our work here at NPR, and you get perks, like sponsor free listening and bonus episodes with more from our guests. Check it out by going to plus.npr.org slash wildcard. Next week on Wild Card, we talk to Saturday Night Live star Bowen Yang. How do you get in your own way?

I get in my own way by like overprivileging the present. That's so interesting because everyone wants to be in the present. Right, but sometimes I feel like being present is overrated. This episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was fact-checked by Katie Doggart and Will Chase and mastered by Robert Rodriguez. Wildcard's executive producer is Beth Donovan. Our theme music is by Romteen. our bluey. You can reach out to us at

wildcard at npr.org. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. See you then.