NPR Music - Sylvan Esso: The NPR Music Interview

Episode Date: September 21, 2026

In September 2025, the electro-pop duo Sylvan Esso made headlines with the announcement that it was removing its catalog from Spotify. The world’s most popular music streamer wasn’t new to criticism, but the temperature changed last year with the revelation that then-CEO Daniel Ek was a major investor in Helsing, an AI software company that designs military weapons systems. A year later, the band has returned bearing new music and another small bombshell: A week after the release of 'Ow ∞,' Sylvan Esso’s fifth studio album, came the news that all of its music was returning to Spotify beginning Sept. 18. In a conversation with reporter Brian Burns from NPR member station WUNC in Chapel Hill, N.C., members Amelia Meath and Nick Sanborn (also a married couple) describe that return as the result of a series of sobering discoveries — but also stress how much they learned on the road to this moment.Support public media with NPR+ and enjoy perks for over 25 podcasts like this one. This show’s perks include bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening. Learn more at plus.npr.org.See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Hey everybody, it's Robin Hilton from NPR Music, and today we are sharing a special one-off conversation with the band Sylvan Esso, the electronic pop duo from North Carolina. And it's about a topic that affects just about every music fan out there. So you may remember last year there was a bunch of indie bands that removed their music from Spotify, which of course is the dominant music streaming service. And they took their music down because it came out that Daniel Eck, the head of Spotify at the time, had deep business ties to an AI weapons company. So Silvanessa was perhaps the most visible artist to take their music down in protest. They've been an established act for over a decade. They've been nominated for a Grammy.

their music has shown, you know, really broad appeal. But one year after that decision to take their music down, Sylvan Esso has returned with two pieces of news. The first one is that their fifth album, Our Infinity, is out now on the band's own record label, Psyche Hotline. And as of September 18th, all of the band's music is available to stream again on Spotify.

If you don't know Sylvanso, Emilia Meath and Nick Sandborn are the two musicians behind the project. They're also a couple. And both of them say that this was a really frustrating set of decisions. That at every turn, it felt like they had to choose between independence and sustainability. But they also say they learned a lot and still considered the experiment, the decision to take down their music. It was a success, they think, in some ways. So to find out more, we asked Brian Burns, a reporter at NPR member station WUNC and North Carolina, to sit down with Nick and Amelia and talk about what independence means to them for music in the streaming era.

Here's Brian. With the rollout of this album, it looks like. you've been having a lot of fun. I just recently watched the video for Sledge, which is essentially just Amelia flying through the woods, and I think there might be a camcorder or something glued to a car.

Yeah, we duct taped our two camcorders to the roof of our car. And so Nick was driving, and I was hanging outside of the backseat passenger window. We've been having a lot of fun with the lowest tech. video stuff that's been so fun. Yeah, this time around we just decided we only make them ourselves. Yeah. And I think it's led to some of the most exciting visuals that we've made for a record.

Well, also, it's like, regardless of what anyone else thinks, I'm having the most fun with it. I think I've ever had, you know? I hope other people like it, but that's secondary to like we are having a blast. The first song we heard from this record was Hot Slob. And that, I think that song caught a lot of people off guard because it is such an abrasive, loud, rock song by Sylvanessa. But also the video you shot at a beloved roadhouse outside of Temple Hill called the Cracken. Smoking, smoking, smoking, smoking, smoking, smoking cigarettes. Tell me whose idea that was.

I think it was mine? Yeah. We needed a bar to play in. Yeah, the Crackens, I mean, I don't want to docks ourselves, but it's pretty close to the studio. Yeah, it's pretty close to the studio. And we shot the coffee video at the pin hook. So it was our choice. Yeah.

Shouting out the look at Enjus in a good way. Yeah. I've been thinking a lot lately about what the role of music video is in 2026. Talk to me about, you know, as independent artists in a post-MTV world, what role does the music video serve? Like, why are you making these? The role of the music video is really a way to have people be able to find it on YouTube. And also a way to talk about your song over and over.

again on Instagram. Great. Originally, we weren't even going to make videos. We were just going to do clips. But because everyone involved is so used to making music videos, there is no way to not cut the footage

into a full video. Well, and also, we realize that, like, it's going to be, the full song is going to be on YouTube, at least anyway. Like, we shot the whole thing. Why not just make the whole thing? Yeah, exactly. It was kind of the same amount of work.

Yeah, I love music videos. So I've been trying to deal with the fact that I'm a little sad about how, like, People just don't watch them the same way they used to, even in the early 2010s. Yeah, for sure. And what I love about the ones you've put out so far is they do have their own unique look. And they, growing up in the MTV world, I feel like you could close your eyes and listen to music and you would always associate this video. And you're kind of doing that with these, where this record now has like a vision to it that it wouldn't have without these videos.

Thank you. I'm glad that that reads. That's the other thing that I think still is real for them, is that. Even if somebody only sees, if their experience of the video you make is only like five seconds, you still have this opportunity to like expand the contextual world of like the thing that you made. Yeah. And that still to me is really exciting, even if some of it like, it's also why like our videos are a little bit more like of like a vibe now rather than like a narrative arc or something. Yeah.

Because it's just like I just want to make this feel. I want to expand on the feeling. Well, I want to keep talking about the rollout of our infinity, the new record. A big part of it, about a year ago you made the announcement that you were removing your catalog from Spotify, citing Daniel X ties to the weapons manufacturer

or Helsing as the final straw. And now you're back. So talk to me a little bit about the decision to return. First of all, I would like to say that it was so, it was such a fascinating exercise to just do the thing

that we thought was morally correct. A lot of times in music, you do a lot of looking away. And in life, I think. And in life. I'm really, really proud of the decision that we made to get off of Spotify. And it just ended up feeling like it was truly unsustainable. Namely, it turns out monopolies are bad.

And it kind of just touched every aspect of our, like, career. Yeah, it kind of became clear that, like, for us at least, we were not, we are not so big that we can escape like the reality of the capitalist system. Right. And like, I don't think, I don't think, well, it just, it just felt like, it felt like the right thing to do at the time. And I'm, yeah, I'm just proud that we made it as long as we did. And it was like impossible. I mean, it just like makes everything impossible. I was shocked. I think I underestimated the amount of one's career that it affects. Yeah.

And it was like, it was kind of depressing. Honestly. It is. It actually, yeah, it's sad. Talk to me about that. What all, what does it look like from your end as artists? Preparing a new album and launching it. How important is Spotify for that? Like, what, how involved are they? Well, this is the main, this, this was the thing that really, like, pushed me over the edge was that we are putting out our own record on our own record label. I just want everyone to hear it. And by taking ourselves off of Spotify, we, just accidentally set up like a pretty large barrier for access, which I wasn't really expecting because I am the sort of person where if I find out that a record has come out that I want to listen to,

I will go find it on the internet. A lot of people will go to their chosen streaming service be like, oh, it's not here, and then they'll go listen to something else. Right. Yeah, I don't know. It just really hits literally everything.

And I think for us when like the reality of like, Oh, it's not just the financial thing, which was like a lot of money. I mean, it was like a significant financial hit for us. I always joke that we're the last middle class band in the world. But it was like a, you know, it was like a significant hit, which I was honored and proud to take. But beyond that, it just kind of puts like a blanket over like literally everything that you do. And I think that part just felt like, oh, there's kind of, unless,

we want to like stop having this be our career or significantly change absolutely everything about the way our job functions. Like for the time being, this is kind of the only way to do this. Yeah. With that in mind, do you think it is possible for an artist to thrive in this era without their catalog on Spotify? I think it's totally possible. Absolutely. I also think like we would be fine if it's not we don't need to go back on. Yeah. Like it's not, it's not, it's not, not something that is making it so that we can no longer be a band. Right. That's not the thing.

What it is is that I want people to hear our record. Yeah. And it puts up a pretty significant barrier for that. And particularly because we're doing it ourselves. If there were other people pushing it, that would be like a different thing. But the fact that we are like selling our own product, I do not want to create more barriers for entry for that. That totally makes sense. And I'm wondering you talked about what the rollout of this record was, do you remember the first?

instance where you kind of had to step back and say like, oh, gosh, not being on Spotify is going to be trickier than we imagined. It's been like that since the moment that we took it off a year ago. Like, it's been really obvious. And for a while, that felt fine. Yeah. And then, like, the more I realized, like, oh, we're putting this out on our own label. The more I was like, oh, like, yeah, it would be good to be on there. Also, I've just kind of been having this thing about, like, protest in general that I've been struggling with.

which I feel like, I feel like, I hope, I assume that this is pretty common in this age of like everything being awful. Yeah. Where like you go to a protest or you commit an active protest. And then at some point,

like every protest I've ever gone to, go home. Mm-hmm. And there's a part of me that sometimes that feels fine. And sometimes that feels like, all right, the thing that we did

pushed this thing to happen. Great. And sometimes I get home and I'm like, did I do anything at all besides like participate in being one side of like a narrative that then people get to like

see themselves in. Yeah. And I think this for me I think I kept feeling when we realized we couldn't we had to that it was unsustainable to remain off of it. I think there's a part of me that kind of felt like

did I do anything at all? And I'm sure the cynical part of myself can feel like I didn't. But like, I also talk to people every single day. Yeah. For whom it was like a thing where they were like, yeah, that made me realize, like, what am I doing?

And like, got off of it. And like, I'm so grateful for like that reflection in the people who like pay attention to what we're doing. Yeah. Because I think that like there's so many other things I've tried to do, like within this political world that have felt like I did all this and like nothing happened, you know? On that note, what do you think makes a protest?

Oh, that's a great question. We were actually just talking about this on the car right over. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. And also, like, particularly in this era and time where, like, there is, like, two generations above us that spent a lot of time talking about how important protesting is. Yes. And congratulating themselves for the success in that, which has slowly revealed itself to, like, really not have been a success in any...

in any way that we were told. Right. It was. I don't know. But I do know that it made me feel good to do something that I believed in. And I know that it helped the amount of feedback that I've gotten from people saying, like, when you did that, it made me feel like I could do that too. Yes. I think that's really the thing.

It's like, I think we all kind of, I'm guessing, have this feeling in this moment that like the bad guys are going, to win. And there is nothing that you can do about it. But in reality, like, they just want you to believe there's nothing you can do about it. You can do so many things about it that will, like, ruin their plans, you know? And I think that when something isn't perfect, it gets weaponized against the idea of any action whatsoever. Right. And I just personally don't want to, I just don't want that to be my experience of resistance anymore. And I, because it just, It's so self-defeating. And, like, I think that any needle moving in any direction, like, if you push something at all.

And I see a result of that just with, if a single person had told me that this had changed their mind, I think that might feel like it was kind of enough for me. Yeah. You certainly started a lot of conversation. when the news broke the you were removing your catalog. So I do think you were successful in that regard. I've been thinking about that too lately. Just you can be very cynical when thinking about protests and thinking that little small things don't add up or they don't matter. You live in a progressive area of the world as putting a yard sign out in your yard,

change anybody's mind or make them think. Maybe not, but should you not do it? Should you not express yourself, even though it's not going to lead to some grand revolution? So it's interesting to hear what you've learned from this experience. I realized the catalog came back on September 18th, and the album came out the week before that, September 11th. Was that on purpose? Were you trying to learn anything in that week? Well, it's the year anniversary of us taking it off,

which was kind of the main thing. I think for whatever reason, my pride at least wanted to make it a year. Yeah. And that felt, that felt correct. That felt like a round number. Absolutely. We also had asked the team to release a record without Spotify. And we wanted to deliver on that.

that. Yeah. It also just felt really good, really interesting to not participate in the Spotify machine which can really like kind of become the whole story of your rollout. And we certainly didn't want coming back on to be the story of the record. We just want

people hear it like it for what it was or not like it for what it was. You didn't want those two stories together. Yeah, that makes sense. Going back to a year ago when you made the announcement, you were removing stuff from Spotify, you obviously were not the only major artist to do that I'm thinking of King Gizzard and Godspeed and Deerhofe. Do you ever have a conversation?

Massive attack, of course. Were there any conversations between you and these other artists that were making these moves? Unfortunately, no. No. I wish that there would be. We have friends who work in the King Giz camp, so I was kind of hoping we would have more of a thing on that. But also, like, King Giz, like, I'm so, like, that is the dream. Like, their career truly has nothing to do with it.

Right. And. But they've never had Spotify listenership really in the same way. They've always been a band camp. I mean. I think it was like they're a massive band who is able to take this stand. And I'm like so proud to be like mentioned in the same sentence as I'm about it for sure. Let's talk a little bit more about this decision to return to the platform.

Was this decision just between the two of you? Do you involve members of your team in these decisions? I mean, ultimately it's just the two of us. Yeah. You know, the team, I think we ask for input. put, just to kind of feel out how everyone feels about something. But it's more, it's a little bit more about like, first on the front end, it's like, let me, if you ever do that thing where you ask somebody how they feel to figure out how you actually feel? There's a little bit of that because

they're all so smart and I love hearing their viewpoints. But also, it's, I think they're extremely good once we had made the decision of being like, okay, how do we want to do this? How can we help? And they've just been, they've been so great. We've asked a lot of them and they've been so wonderful. And on that note, as you two as partners in life as well as music, was there ever a point where you were not on the same page at the same time with this? Yeah. I mean, we, we, yeah, everything with our band is a, like, a discussion between the two of us. And, like, we disagree about things all the time. Yeah. But, like, this, I think we disagreed, and then I was convinced that it was, that it was the only choice. Yeah. I think,

It was my idea initially, and it was really easy. Nick was like, absolutely. And then as we got more and more into it, I was like, you know what? We should do it. Yeah. We should put it back. Yeah. And that was like, and that is the more complicated of the decisions.

Gotcha. From your perspective as artists, do you feel like Spotify has changed at all in the last year? There's, you know. No, not at all. Okay. Not in any way. They made a hullabaloo about some changes that I think were nothing. Yeah, they did.

But it's not. It hasn't changed. changed. It's not going to change. Well, what advice do you have for other artists who might consider leaving the platform or somebody starting out and just wondering if they need to be on there in the first place? Totally. If you like doing anything other than making music, do that. If you can be happy in your life, do something else. I do think for me, though, one thing we said a lot at the time, and I've said a lot since,

is that our action to me was not about convincing other artists to do this. The bar for an artist to do this is extremely high. And it's not fair to ask anyone to do it. No, it's like the penalties are massive. They're financial, again, they touch everything. Yeah. So like it is extremely difficult, both logistically and financially and just like conceptually for an artist to actually remove their stuff from doing it from the platform.

We were in a lucky position where we were able, like all three of those things lined up and we're like, oh, in this one moment we can actually pull this off for a while. But like that is not a thing that other people have the ability to do. What people do have the ability to do and is extremely easy is for people who give Spotify money to stop giving them money. That's easy. You can switch your streaming service in five minutes. They all want to bring your entire, all your plan. Everybody wants to do that for you. that takes almost no effort whatsoever.

So I think we always, this always gets framed around like, what do you think other artists should do? And I'm like, I don't think other artists should be, have to make this decision that like is a, is an extremely difficult one to make. Yeah,

and there are only so many ways to make money in this industry. Yeah. I hear a lot about bands that are brand new and just starting, relying on Spotify because that's how a lot of touring is booked these days. Exactly. Is that something that you ever experience? there anything else that's kind of like that that the average person might not know about the way

that it affects your career? Spotify touches every aspect. Oh yeah. It's just like a ubiquity thing. Yeah. It's like physical sales, ticket sales. Can you imagine an ethically and economically viable streaming service? Do you think that's attainable? Absolutely. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. That would be cool. I just don't, yeah, I just don't want to, I would really rather not have my life's work be on a platform that supports robots that can kill people. Yeah. Yeah, and like, that thing, I don't think either of us have a problem with streaming in general. I love streaming. Sure.

You do, it's great. Like, I buy records. I have multiple streaming subscriptions to different places. Like, I'm into it. The idea is not my problem. I think it's absolutely possible for this type of thing. to have a sustainable business model for everybody. I just think when one of them is the monopoly,

far in a way, the monopoly of the sector, that's bad for everybody. Like, it's bad for bands, it's bad for consumers, it's bad for, it's just bad for kind of everything. Like, there's a reason we have laws against this, hint, hint. So, like, I think if that got evened out a little bit more, Yatsi. Yeah.

Like, great. Like, maybe we can all find a better path forward through, you know, they keep us telling us about the magic of the free market. Like, I would love to experience some of that magic. We should say, NPR reached out to Spotify for comment on Daniel X ties to Helsing. A representative for the company declined to comment for this story. I imagine you got this question a lot a year ago, but if somebody comes up to you and asks the best way to support you or other musicians financially and ethically,

what do you tell them? What's the best way to support a band you love? Well, like with any product, the best way is to buy it. People are like, how do I support you? It's like, well, really all you do is you just actually buy the thing that I'm trying to sell you. Right. Please just buy it. And you don't even need to listen to it.

You could just put it. But like that is like, everyone can answer that question for themselves. There's just this like chosen. What's the word for when like you're an accidental baby? Like you don't, you don't learned, learned. Oh, yeah. Learned incompetence. Yeah, there's like a learned incompetence thing that I think that streaming has accidentally

done. Yeah. Which speaks to the monopoly, yeah. Yeah, like, how do I do this? Where it's like, I mean, you know how to do it. Yeah. Buy a T-shirt. Right.

I think a bigger one, though, one I would just love to highlight. Because, like, I get it. I get how somebody has just the one thing that they use and they just want to use. And like, you know, again, if, like, music is not one of the top five focuses of your life, that makes sense. It's not the top five focuses of most people's life. Yeah, like, that's so reasonable. But, like, a huge one right now is, like, buy a ticket to a show in advance. You know, like nobody's selling tickets anymore.

That is a massive shift in the last five years. And like that is huge, especially for bands that are smaller than us, that is a huge game-changing thing you can do for a band that you like. Yeah. Is to like, if you see they're coming to your town, buy a ticket before the show. That is just like everybody, like, they set their budgets based on pre-sales. They figured out if the truth was going to happen in the first place based on pre-sales. And like, pre-sales have gone way, way down. Even if, like, actual day of show numbers are up.

I'm getting very inside baseball on this now. Great. But, like, that's a huge thing for so many bands, especially bands that sell less than 500 tickets a night. Yeah. That is, like, a game-changing thing you can do. Also, if anything, it really helps boost people's confidence, and they need that right now because it's scary to decide to go on tour.

It is. It seems so expensive right now on top of everyone else. It just lets you know that there is some money on the table. Final question about the Spotify stuff. I want to ask if you had any. concerns about public reaction when you announce that you are returning. Of course. Of course. Like with anything, when you actually try to address it,

it gives people permission to get angry at you when you make a different decision. But you know what? I think one of the most human and real and honest things you can do in this moment is say that you have changed your mind and own it. Absolutely. Because a lot of people don't do that anymore. I think that being able to change your mind. is important. Or again, just that, like,

the act doesn't have to be perfect for it to be impactful. And, like, I hope that somebody can take that into the rest of their life. That, like, this does not need to be a pristine diamond of a protest. Like, just do what you can and say what you think.

At the party, I fell down, down the stairs again, over my party dressing into concrete glen. The street lights. Well, you've been able to make all these big important decisions on your own because you own your own label.

Let's talk about psychic hotline a little bit. How has having complete control over your music helped you out in other ways? I mean, here's the thing. We kind of, I don't think, I haven't, like, felt a change in the way that we make our music. I have felt a real change in how it feels to put a record out. Yeah. Like, it feels so good. Whereas before, it used to feel.

kind of weird because like we weren't really in control of how it was being rolled out or like we hadn't made any of this like we hadn't been present for all of the decisions so now it really feels like we're like seeing the actual fruits of our labor yeah yeah like we did this whole um tour where we went to record stores and and DJ'd from the used bin and then sold copies of our own record yeah and like to hand to hand people copies of the record that we put out feels totally different than a record that another label put out. Is that true for you, Sandy? Yeah, I think there's just kind of a, like, it

feels like we're going back to like a DIY thing, even though it's still very big. You know what I mean? Yeah, we pours our way back to get away. I'm like, I am weird, this is a very direct transaction. Yeah. Even if, also just even talking, like, even take the money out of it, like just talking to people about it feels more direct. to me. Like, I'm not earning a royalty

from somebody else's bank. Like, it's like, like, the team is, like, just our team. It's like our people who we've worked with forever. And, like, it feels so... I don't know. Homegrown, I guess. How do I talk about this when that's something corny? Like, it's just really

nice. I feel like the role of a record label has shifted a lot over time. I'm curious what inspired you to start Psychic Hotline. Partially, it was just because we needed a place to put her first record. because we had a very nice deal on it. And when we got it back, we didn't want to resell it to a record label.

We wanted to be. And the same thing happened with Mountain Man, my first band's record. We're around the same time. So I wanted to do that. And then Martin Anderson, who runs the label with us,

just has an incredible eye for A&R. And he started, like, just bringing these incredible musical projects to us. And the more we learn, the more we were like, oh, we should just put out these records. This should just be something. How do you decide who you work with? Well, for psychic, yeah, there's a lot of ways.

We get submissions, like a lot of labels, which I'm really, I'm honored that we get submissions. Bruno Berlis' record was just a submission that we couldn't, that was like the craziest record we had heard through submissions ever. I love that record so much. Some of it comes kind of from our musical community here, the Daughter of Swords album by Alexandra Sazermaneng, or Ryan Gustafin's Dead Tongues records.

But then a lot of it comes kind of from this ever-growing extended family, and then we find some as well. But like Tim Bernardes is a huge Brazilian artist that we work with that we're so thrilled about. artist's first record in the States. It's kind of all over the place. And as we've put out more records, different records touch different communities,

and that leads to more people inquiring and more people finding us. And so we're kind of at this cool point now with it where it's starting to feed itself in that way. We're like, we're having to do a little less reaching out and now all of the yeses we're saying feel a lot more like natural extensions of something that's already happening. I feel like growing up and following a lot of different indie labels, it was almost like they formed their own little clubhouses and their own little scenes and their own little clicks,

and that was cool. And then I feel like that kind of went away for a minute, but I feel like that's what psychic hotline does is you are kind of building your own, establishing your own community with the artists that you sign. They're all people, a lot of people you collaborate with. Talk to me about the freedom that these artists have. by being signed a psychic hotline? What do newer bands get by being signed to the label?

I mean, I think they get people who will actually be honest with them, which is nice. We do not promise the moon to any. There's also like an element of actually having people who care. Well, on top of that, just like logistically speaking, the deals that we offer are extremely artist-friendly. And like our artists all retain their master rights. We have very short, you know, retention periods. We're like everything, it's like, what? is the most artist-friendly deal that doesn't immediately tank the label? That is basically what

we've dialed ourselves into at this point. Talking about artist rights on the label in tying this back to Spotify, are bands on Psychicotline allowed to pull their albums from streaming services? What would that look like? Of course. Of course. I mean, we just did it. Yeah, I wouldn't recommend it. Okay. But, yeah. I guess I don't know how any of the rest of them feel like. We don't talk about it all that much. Yeah. I think that, like, the bigger thing is just like, we did that. We did this wild thing, you can pretty much do anything you want. And like, I can tell you what I have learned from doing it. Yeah. You know, and like, if, if you want to ask, I have experience with this exact thing. But that's really it. I think the more, the older I get, at least, the more I'm

excited about, like, our place in this, like, lineage of musicians. I think one of the things when I first moved here that excited me the most about living in Durham was feeling like there was a lineage of musicians that I could talk to that had experiences that I did not. And like coming here and having like central and merge and all of the things that surround both of those institutions, in addition to like get a little further out, like, yep, rock. And like, you know, there's all these kind of like, there was all this stuff that had been baked in for like 20, 30, 40 years, you know. And having that institutional knowledge, I think is so underrated.

as far from a from an independent musician standpoint because like who are you every band is kind of an island you know there's no one to ask about there's no one to look up to in a lot of ways and finding mentorship i think is really difficult because it's such an isolating experience um so coming here and feeling the weight of like oh there are people i could call who've gone through this thing i'm about to go through that was like such a breath of fresh air and like i i hope that we can be some part of that for both here in the triangle but we're also like people on the label of like, I've gone through all this stuff. Like, you can ask me about anything. On top of running psychic hotline, you guys also both run Betty's or own studio. Walk me through Bettys. What do artists see, and how do you want them to feel when they walk through the door at Bettys? They usually see our little dog Gurkin. A fixture.

They see like a giant portrait of Nick's grandmother, Betty. True. And then, you know, pretty soon they're in a kitchen, if they're walking into the main house. then otherwise if they go into the studio, they see a beautiful studio that has a lot of light. Yeah. Very Unitarian Universalist church kind of energy. I wish it didn't.

I wish it didn't feel like a church in there. At first I was like, this is weird and now I'm like, this is fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. I want them to feel like a light sense of ownership, but also freedom and not judged. Yeah. There's like, that was one of my first experiences in studios is a really easy. places to make you feel like you don't belong in them.

So I wanted to design a place where you feel like you belong there. What sets a good studio apart from a not-so-good studio? You need to employ people who are nice. Yeah, nice people. Who understand that maybe the person walking into the room would be feeling a little nervous.

Sure. You know, sweeping is a good idea. Nice people sweeping, the big two. Nice people sweeping. People who think about dust. Okay. I think though that like for us and Amelia was really like led the charge this is like I think a lot of studios are built around what an engineer needs. Okay.

Which I get, because engineers tend to be the ones who build studios. And they're the people that hang out there the most. Yeah. But like the artist and the artist experience is kind of the only thing that makes the record good or bad. And so I think our places maybe to a fault at times focused on it feeling great and feeling empowering to be there rather than like the acoustics being perfect. or like the gear being perfect or any of that. Like we have a gigantic window in the main room,

which is acoustically speaking, everyone will tell you that's a terrible idea. But I think that that adds to the feeling of, you almost feel like you're outside. And I think just in general focusing on, like, how do I want someone to feel when they walk in is actually the only thing that matters or changes how a recording is going to sound?

I'm curious how you two is, artist, how having your own studio has freed you up creatively. How much does that benefit you? Oh my gosh. It's the best. Yeah, I feel like you can hear it all over our new record. Mostly because we didn't have any limitation of time. And that led to like, one, being able to take breaks. Yeah. Like, which is a totally novel thing. Or being like, oh, it's just, we'd go and we work for two hours and then we'd be like, it's just not here today. Let's go play some video games. Let's go take the dog for a walk. Another is like being able to go in at night, being able to go in, like, first thing in the morning. It just changes the way that it completely broke up the flow

made us able to just constantly be in there. I was just kind of wondering about that. Sometimes people wake up in the middle of the night and have to jot down an idea. And I feel like having your own studio, you can run into the studio if you have to do and record it and go back to bed, which sounds nice. We could do that. I think it really started, I think this record especially, I really started to feel it as like a tool that enabled the work rather than like an obligation. Like I think if you like every time I've like paid to be in a studio, I feel very, the studio feels like its own anxiety and stress and obligation. You know, I am here. It has to happen now. This is what it is.

I have to bend the work to this moment. Right. But if the studio is just a tool that you have in the garage and like it suits the moment rather than the moment suiting the tool, I think that's kind of. kind of, that's the biggest shift. Also, kind of something about the label, having all these other people around, like having other artists working there, having other people staying there,

Joe Westfield lived at the studio the entire, like the year, one of the years that we were making it. Like, that was such a powerful thing just to have other, other creative things happening, other stuff going in and out, other emotional energy coming through the space, is such a, like a lightning and enriching effect.

Do you feel like you would make the same record if you were anywhere else in the world other than at Bettys? No. No, no, but also, like, I don't know, we made this record of Betty's. We also, like, we did a, we do a lot of stuff in L.A. Yeah. And, like, the deeper that we've gotten into this project, the more that I've realized that, like, it's just going to sound like it's music that Nick and I make together, no matter where we're going, no matter where we are, or who we do it with, or, um, the way that we do it, or, like, we can try to mess with it as much as we want. But, like, there's no way to crush it if Nick and I are in the room and involved.

On that note, on the new record, on how Infinity you work with a really impressive group of tight-knit collaborators. Tell me a little bit about how community is important to Sylvanesso. I mean, at this point, it kind of feels like the whole deal. I think it's the thing we're chasing the most, or trying to foster the most. I shouldn't say chasing. Yeah. Yeah, I think for a long time, I at least, was really protective. of our thing and her music

and wanting it to just be the two of us. And I think that limited what we did and how I felt about it from having the ability to grow and change. And at this phase, it just feels like all I want is more people around. And I want to feel closer to the people

that I'm close to. And I want to hear how somebody else hears what we do. That's another huge part of it. Like we've got a band on tour now and we had to teach them all, you know, 40 songs or whatever. Right. But even bringing somebody in to a song you're working on, understanding it through their ears, I think, is such a beautiful experience that I hope everybody gets to have.

Yeah, totally. Also, being in a band in general can be pretty isolating. Like, if Nick and I wanted to, the only people we would see is, like, our team. And luckily, we love everyone on our team. But I think, like, once Nick and I've discovered that this was going to be our actual life, we realize, like, oh, we actually do have to invest in, like, friendship and community and, like, people who are around us, because it's really easy to accidentally just only live in the studio and never see anyone new.

Or on the bus, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So it's something that we've, like, actively been in some ways chasing. Yeah, I do think that that is right, and that, like, you have to fight for alone time in the same way that you need to fight for, like, collective time. Yeah, I've been having this thought a lot recently. Historically speaking, community and fellowship and friendship have been the antidotes to fascism. Like knowing your neighbors and being known, his historically, that's the thing that all, all fascists try to isolate us. Because if we're isolated, we start to hate the people around us and then we see them as the enemy instead of the fascist. And so as an angry person reading the news every day, I find that a positive way that I can channel that is by really remembering that truth, that like, other people knowing me and me knowing other people, even if they don't particularly like me, it feels like it's becoming a radical act. And I am more and more invested in trying to push my rage and my doom into positive acts of radicalism every day rather than negative ones.

Say that. And I think that to me is like, that's it. That's, I just, like, in addition to all of the myriad benefits of having more people in my life, I think resisting the slide into isolation, I'm most focused on that, I think, right now. And I think that is, I'm so grateful that that has stretched both into, like, the work we do, but also just to, like, the city we live in and, like, the team that we have, both in, you know, business and in life and in, you know, business and in life. and in family. Amelia Meath, Nick Sanborn. Thank you so much for an event. Congratulations on the new record, Ow Infinity.

Thank you. All right, Alex, Mike Hottline. Thank you. That's driving at. This is what it's all about to be opened and opened and opened again. That's Sylvan S.O. Speaking with reporter Brian Burns at NPR member station WUNC in North Carolina. This conversation was produced.

by Noah Caldwell and edited by Dawood Tyler Amin. For In Pure Music, I'm Robin Hilton.