NPR Music - Taylor Swift: 'The Life Of A Showgirl'

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

Taylor Swift just dropped her new album The Life Of A Showgirl. It touches on her relationship with fiancé Travis Kelce while reflecting on fame, normalcy, the Internet, and a simmering beef with a fellow pop star. Our friends at Pop Culture Happy Hour unpack all the songs on this special episode, including “Actually Romantic,” “Eldest Daughter,” “CANCELLED!”, and “Ruin The Friendship.”Note: Look for our No. 1 songs of 2012 this Thursday, Oct. 9.See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

Hey, everybody, just a quick note that if you're looking for our number one songs of 2012, that episode that was due out today. We're going to post that on Thursday of this week so that we can bring you this special episode from our friends at Pop Culture Happy Hour. NPR Music's Stephen Thompson and Am Powers set down to talk about the Inescapable new album from Taylor Swift. It dropped this past Friday, a dozen new tracks on everything from, her relationship with Travis Kelsey to fame, a simmering beef with a fellow pop star,

and a whole lot more. So again, from Pop Culture Happy Hour, here's Stephen and Anne. So we should note that Anne and I are recording this on Thursday, October 2nd. We've both had the life of a showgirl for about 36 hours. You would not believe the agreements that we signed

in order to hear this thing ahead of time. This conversation is going to revolve around the album's 12 songs. We haven't seen anything she's released theatrically. We haven't seen any of the videos. And hopefully she doesn't drop a ton of additional songs like she did with the tortured poets department. And I've come to think of you as something of a Taylor Swift whisperer. You've written about her extensively. I know you're a fan. I greatly trust your judgment when it comes to Taylor Swift. What do you think of the life of a showgirl? Well, I was excited when she announced this album because I am also a massive fan of Max Martin and Shelbach, her two collaborators on this record,

the Swedish producers, with whom she worked on her incredible run of banger-saturated albums about 10 years ago now. You're talking about red, 1989. Exactly. So I was really happy that she was reuniting with them. She made this record, by the way, while she was touring with her gigantic record-setting ERIS tour, she would apparently pop over to Sweden every now and then and hang out with the guys. As one does. As one does. To me, that process is so interesting because while she is staging this massive extravaganza,

then she is retreating into the studio with a very small core of collaborators. I mean, besides Max and Shelbeck, there's barely anyone else on this record. There's a string section here and there. I am so interested in her musical evolution as well as, her mythical evolution. I'm into the music on this record. Yeah, I'm kind of in awe of her executive functioning. Yeah, it's intimidating.

Her ability to juggle many large tasks really does put me to complete shame. I think this is a really interesting record because I think in some ways it's definitely going to be discussed as kind of her bangers record, right? Like she's kind of built it as such. This is a pivot away from the kind of somber,

autumnal vibes, you know, that she explored with Aaron Dessner and Jack Antonoff, you know, on the folklore, Evermore, and especially the tortured poets department. And it is a pivot away from that sound. I don't think it's a pivot 100% of the way from that sound. I agree, and especially not thematically. It's not a pivot. I mean, it's a pivot from the heartbreak of torture poets. But as you well know, there are some themes Taylor can never let alone. Yeah. And I think in some ways it feels like a, And the title gives it away. This is the life of Taylor Swift.

This is like the state of Taylor Swift. And as such, it contains multitudes, right? It is capturing where she is in her life. She is newly engaged. She's very much in love. That thematically is a big pivot away from especially the tortured poets department. But she's still finding room on this record for other themes. You have nostalgic heartbreak, which is a big,

Taylor Swift topic that she has come back to before. There's a song called Ruin the Friendship that is about regretting, not kissing someone. Very classic Taylor melodrama, finding out later that her object of affection has passed away. Honestly, that's one of my favorite Taylor Swift vibes. I like nostalgic Taylor Swift much, much more than here is what it's like to be Taylor Swift. I think when she is at her best, she uses specificity. to signal something universal. And sometimes when she is singing about massive fame,

when she's singing about haters, when she's singing about what it's like to be Taylor Swift, her stuff can leave me a little cold. And this record intermittently does that. But it contains a lot. There are Travis Kelsey songs. There is a fairly sexual Travis Kelsey song. Yeah.

It's a hilariously sexual. Not to Sabrina Carpenter, who's also on this record. I mean, that's a flat-out body, risque, you know, blues queen, nasty metaphor kind of song. I think it's very, very funny. It's called wood in case anybody wanted to know. You can kind of suss out the intricately nested metaphor. It's not about interior decoration.

And it's kind of funny. I mean, like, she is definitely, you know, Sabrina Carpenter pops up on the title track, which closes the record. But Sabrina Carpenter does feel like a little bit of an influence at a couple points on this record. including both Sabrina Carpenter's new record and Taylor Swift's new record contain fairly cringy references to thighs. Forgive me, it sounds cocky, unitize me and open my eyes. Redwood tree, it ain't hard to see his love was the key to open my thighs.

I don't mind, Taylor's. I actually, maybe it's because they are these, you know, parasocial figures in our lives. It just makes me laugh because they play out their public relations. I mean, Travis and Taylor do as a kind of a comedy routine in some ways. So I can kind of imagine them jokingly coming up with this. I'm not, Travis does not have a writing credit on that song. Thank goodness. But it's almost like an extension of how, what I think they may be like. And I've never met Travis Kelsey and I don't know anything about their relationship really. But the good

humor that runs throughout this album and especially the songs about him, I value that. I don't know. I like Funny Taylor. I think sometimes she's a little clunky, though, in her humor, which I know Stephen bothers you, but you also kind of like the clunkiness, right? You're like a fan of her lines that kind of woof, you know? Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I would say I'm necessarily a fan. I will cringe as hard as anybody when she unleashes a clunker.

But I do think that her tendency to be, oh, God, I'm not using this word delfts. deliberately as like an Easter egg, but to be fairly fearless in her songwriting, I think her willingness to uncork a groaner is part of what makes her songwriting distinct. And one of the things that makes her the world's biggest pop star, like as much as she is imitated, as widely as you will hear echoes of Taylor Swift's speak singing that have been echoed by an Olivia Rodriguez, that have been echoed by a Sabrina Carpenter. She still writes songs that don't sound like they could come from anybody but Taylor Swift, even when she is not writing about specifically being Taylor Swift and being massively famous and being in the relationships that

she's been in. I'm not saying that she's going to take a break, although there is a line on one of these songs about wanting to, like, move to the suburbs and play basketball with her future children, so who knows? You're talking about Wish List. Yes, I am, and that is a dream she expresses. And a realizable dream in some ways, not entirely, because it's not like Travis Kelsey's going to retire from his own celebrity either. Yeah, he's about to retire from football, but he's not going to retire from podcasting.

Exactly. But one thing that I love about this record, actually, is that it feels to me like a culmination. As a huge Max Martin and Shelbeck fan, the three of them weave in both references to kind of like the entire history of post, maybe post-70s. pop and the entire history of Taylor. You just mentioned the song Wishlist. If you listen to just the cadence and think of the sentence structure of the verses on that song, it is a total throwback to style, which is her supposedly,

Harry Stiles referencing song from 1989, a record she made with Max and Shalbeck. Eldest Daughter, that is a beautiful, timeless ballad that I know will now be the first dance at weddings. here in Nashville for like the next 20 years. So many traders, smooth operators, but I'm never going to...

Now. And that's your track five, so you know she cares very deeply about what she's saying in that song. Yes, exactly. Exactly. But that song, you know, reaches all the way back to one of her most famous lines, you know, a careless man's careful daughter, right, from back in her country days. God, I hate that. because I don't want to like Stan Taylor or parasycial out with her.

But I think the expressions of love toward Travis Kelsey are really touching, you know? And the kind of open-heartedness on the song like eldest daughter is really, really moving. This record very artfully kind of moves through Taylor's own career musically to present this culmination and land her where she is now. And I love that because it's just really something. such artful pop music making. I mean, you can say she writes clunkers. That's cool.

But the sound on this record is airtight, I think. Yeah. And that's where I want to call out the song Opelite, which, you know, comes fairly early in the record and has this big, bright theatrical quality. It's a true, like, just fully fleshed out earworm. Oh, I'm so glad we're past the tortured poets department. Yeah, and it's got that Max Martin thing, right? So here's a thing. He is always thinking about how what he's doing connects to the present moment, but also to previous moments in pop. So that song has these kind of almost like 50s style. Like there's that chorus. And please, anyone listening, if you know where that, what, oh, oh, sorry, I'm not tuneful, where that comes from, it's haunting me. It's from another song. But it's also so evocative of like the musical grease or something like that. And then add that into the very contemporary kind of production, the standards on this song.

And you have a song that just seems to be everywhere all at once, everything everywhere all at once. That's what Taylor's all about. Do you have other favorite songs? And I do like father figure. That has a very recognizable interpolation. There's a writing credit for George Michael. So it plays off. So George Michael's creepiest song.

Creepiest and most beautiful. I can't help it. It's a gorgeous song, you know. And so, but she actually does something fascinating with this song, which is she leans into the creepy, Stephen, right? And she uses this age, inappropriate relationship trope to call out a former mentor who clearly is a man in the music industry. And in the end, basically say, hey, I am more powerful than you. I am now your father figure, which is such a neat little trick. She does it in a very mean-spirited way, but also in such a beautiful way, musically.

So it's just a fascinating twist. And again, it's a very reachback for Taylor because to me, this is my tears ricochet, which is a more vulnerable expression of being taken advantage of. But here, she's like, no, I'm on top. I'm the father figure. And I find that enjoyable in a petty way. Oh, absolutely. And we'll get to the slight mean streak that runs through this record.

A slight. Oh, my goodness. Before we get entirely away from the Travis Kelsey of it all, there's a song late on this record that I do love called Honey. Oh, yeah. And that is a perfect example of when Taylor Swift is at the top of her songwriting game, because that is a song that is very specific to her relationship with Travis Kelsey. That is illuminating about her relationship with it. It's revealing a detail. we didn't have before, but it's doing it in a way that feels universal and is speaking to a larger truth of like when these words are spoken in bad faith, they mean something very different. And when they're spoken in love. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

You can call me honey if you want because I'm the one because you win it. I just have to say about honey, it also highlights an aspect of this album that I really value, which is her singing. I mean, remember way back 100 million years ago? when Taylor Swift first became a star, and people like me, who I was writing for the LA Times at the time, were like, can this girl even sing? Like, people did not think Taylor Swift could sing. Oh, yeah. Because she was kind of famously unsteady live performer, and she is not anymore.

No, not at all. And I think the fact that they made this record while she was on tour, while she was obviously taking very good care of her voice, and really deploying her voice every night, you know, in this very powerful way. She just has so much fun singing these songs. I mean, even the way she sings that word, honey, you know,

she kind of drags it out. And it reminds me of like Mod 60s, you know, Austin Powers theme song kind of way, you know. Or similarly, the very beginning of this record on The Fate of Ophelia, the first little bit of that song

where she's talking about someone, Travis, calling her on the telephone, she does it in this like mock seductive woozy, swoony way. The control she shows as a singer in those moments. It's very theatrical, which I think is a really important thing about this record. And I love the way she sings on this. I think she's ready for her Broadway show now.

And you and I have talked offline that there are a couple of songs, particularly late on this record that don't work for us as much. I think the first half is pretty solid. Right. Yeah, absolutely. More than solid. Yeah, but you get into the back half and there are a couple of choices made that I'm not necessarily a huge fan of. And I think you're more troubled than I'm. I'm, I'm sort of troubled for her more than troubled by her, but we can get into that. We can get into that. Well, I'm going to talk about the song Actually Romantic, which is pretty clearly, and obviously we're talking about this on Thursday, there has not necessarily been a gigantic amount of online discourse about the contents of this record. By the time this episode drops, I suspect there will have been.

Charlie X-C-X had a song on Brat called Sympathy is a Knife. Charlie X-C-X's partner is in the 1975. Husband now. I think they're married. Yes. Taylor Swift famously dating Maddie Healey. She wrote many ponderous songs about it. I love those songs, but anyway. Sympathy as a knife is a little bit about like seeing this incredibly powerful and successful person backstage, having an insecure response to it. Right. To me, it is much more of a song about Charlie X, CX's own insecurities than it is any kind of disc track against Taylor Swift. Well, Taylor Swift has a song on this new album called Actually Romantic, which I suspect is going to resonate with a lot of people. It's certainly going to be talked about a lot.

to me it is a huge overreaction. It's a good song that bugs me. I heard you call me boring Barbie when the Coke's got you brave. High-fived my ex and then you said you glad he ghosted me. Roald me a song saying it makes you sick to see my face. Yeah, I understand that. And again, this is where I have to kind of walk away from the parasobos. socialness of it all.

Always a good idea. I know. Definitely. Taylor, revisiting, honing, perhaps, you know, getting repetitive on a theme that she's explored before. She's got this whole thing about,

like, I am not bothered by you, and this is when she clearly is. It's kind of a drill tweet in song form. It is. Like, don't put in the newspaper that I was mad. But I just, there's a few funny lines of the song. I think the line comparing the Antagans, in the song to a toy chihuahua barking at me from a tiny purse dog.

It is actually, it is funny. And I know you think it comes off vicious, but it's precious, adorable. Like a toy chihuahua barking at me from a tiny purse, that's how much it hurts. If you can remove yourself from the gossip, the song, it's overplayed. It is cartoonish, but she gets some zingers in there. And maybe this is where I should just state my, higher concept for this album because what I've realized after many years, way too much of my life thinking about Taylor Swift at this point, is that at least since she started working with Max

Martin and really went for the pop and started building herself as a pop star, every Taylor Swift album works on at least two levels. It works on the level of autobiography, as we're discussing, and then it also works on the level of the concept. So the way this is working on showgirl, I think, is that she's created this character, the tough as nails, you know, grease paint wearing, my feet hurt from dancing, but I, you know, the show must go on. I really wonder if in this song, for example, or in the song canceled, where she stands up for her girl squad in ways that some people might find disturbing, if she's leaning into that character, she's at least finding courage in that character. I mean, she is reaching back to Betty Davis and all about Eve or Elizabeth

Berkeley and the movie show girls. These are those women who live for the fame, who live for the lights. And can we separate Taylor from that character? That's my question for you. Well, Anne, I think it is safe to say this is the final conversation anyone will have about this album. I'm glad we settled it on. I'm so glad we figured it all out. Resolved. We're done. Thank you, Taylor.

You know, if you want some advice on buying a mega mansion in one of the suburbs here in Nashville, call me. I can find you that basketball hoop. I can't. All right. Well, we want to know what you think about the life of a showgirl. Chances are everyone will have an opinion. Find us at Facebook.com slash PCHH.

That brings us to the end of our show. Anne Powers, thank you so much for being here. It's always a pleasure. I will see you next year on Taylor Day for our annual day of service. Oh, man. When she drops her 13th album, you know how she is about the number 13. That thing is going to have some thought put into it. Just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus is a great way to support our show and public radio.

And you get to listen to all of our episodes, sponsor-free. so please go find out more at plus.npr.org slash happy hour or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger, Jenei Morris, and Mike Katzith, and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello, Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Stephen Thompson, and we will see you all next time.