NPR Music - The year in review, 2025

Episode Date: December 2, 2025

We look back at the year’s most defining moments in music, from the Trump administration’s takeover of the Kennedy Center to Kendrick’s Super Bowl performance, the Sean Combs trial, the 'Sinners' phenomenon, artists we loved and lost and more. But we begin with a question: Was it an unusually great year for music, unusually bad or par for the course?Check back for more year-end coverage from NPR Music and All Songs Considered, including our picks for best songs, best albums and more.Vote for your favorite albums of 2025.Enjoy the show? Send it to a friend and leave us a review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Questions, comments, suggestions or feedback of any kind always welcome: [e-mail] pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

It's the All Songs Considered Year in Review. I'm Robin Hilton. I'm here with NPR Music's Ann Powers. Hello. You may know her from such hits as All Songs Plus, the biweekly, those deep dives on a single song that you and David Tyler Amin do go out every other Thursday for NPR Music Plus subscribers. Also, NPR Music reporter Isabella Gomez Sarmiento. Howdy? You are joining us from WABE in Atlanta.

Yes, sir. And if we must, Stephen Thompson. I'm afraid it's a contractual obligation. I just camp out in the studio and I won't leave. Host of New Music Friday and Pop Culture Happy Hour. What do you all think? Do you think 2025 just broadly was an unusually great year for music, unusually bad year for music, or just kind of a typical year?

For me, it was a fantastic year as far as the deep, wide, and not very well-defined middle. I think it was absolutely great. As far as the top, the 1%, the pop girlies, not so much. We will discuss. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that I think it's an amazing year for music right at the exact same time that I started hosting New Music Friday. To me, it's been an outstanding year for music. Yeah, I really agree with Anne.

I think it was a year where a lot of the blockbuster-y type of albums I was looking forward to didn't quite land. But it was a great year for a lot of really quiet releases, new artists that caught me off guard. new genres. I thought it was kind of an amazing year for music. It feels like one of the best in recent memory for me, but I was talking with some other people on the NPR music team.

I won't mention any names, but Jacob Gantz said that he didn't think it was a very strong year. I just thought, man, I don't know. So I thought maybe I'm out on an island here. I thought it was a pretty great year. Well, we're going to have separate episodes all about the year's best songs, best albums, a bunch of other stuff.

Look for those starting on December 9th. episode we're going to look back and go through the year 2025. We're going to go chronologically by quarters. We're going to talk about memorable moments, milestones, all the things that sort of define the year in music for 2025 and what we think we'll remember this year for. I think we have to start with something that happened in January of 2025, the very first week of the year, when Bad Bunny drops this on us. Well, baby, where do you are? To get a periolito,

well, so speaking of blockbuster albums that actually did hit, Bad Bunny came out swinging first month of the year with his debut tiram most photos, this genre-bending, huge love letter to Puerto Rico. He's playing with salsa, plena, bomba. He's taking these very traditional rhythms and mixing them with reggaeton, mixing them with dembo, really paying homage to Puerto Ricans who live on the island

and to the diaspora in New York, New York, as he says on the album. You know, I think every time Bad Bunny releases something, it's easy to say that he is doing an unprecedented thing for his career, but this album really sort of knocked it out of the park, Musically, socially, politically, it was a very, very big, ambitious swing. And he really kind of struck gold with this album. I think he had so much swag to release what he knew was going to be a huge contender for album of the year in January.

Like, what kind of, my goodness. How many albums have we already forgotten about that we loved at the time when they came out at the top of the year? And then we're like, oh, yeah, that's right. Oh, my gosh, I forgot they've, yeah. Yeah, I mean, he's. He has found ways to stay in the conversation in ways that I think, you know, a lot of artists dropping albums in January don't necessarily get to do. He played the Tiny Desk in April, which, you know, was incredible. One of the all-time best.

I was there. I got to say I was there. And, you know, and then late in the year, he was named as the Super Bowl halftime performer for 2026. And so, you know, his amazing 2025 is sort of sprawling out into subsequent years. and wound up kind of, you know, a topic of conversation in the God-forsaken culture wars, you know, where there are these excruciating conversations from people that were like, who's this guy? It's like, oh, he's literally the most streamed artist on earth. We're going to talk a whole lot more about that, certainly when we get to the fall quarter when that was announced.

Speaking of Super Bowl, should we mention the Super Bowl this year with Kendrick's performance. It was incredible, deep boat It was a freak-thew man down Call of Amber Lambs Tell them breathe Let them boys to the cross They walk around like teas What's up with these your rodeo

Trying to see Compton In the street And a hate me pop with all And their mama It was You know The most amazing feud Of the 21st century

Which Kendrick won Yeah Hands down Right? Right team? Don't you think He'd already won Before the Super Bowl?

I mean that's Okay victory lap then You know Victory lap with an extra punch. That was the ultimate mic Do you know the Simpsons meme where the kid goes, stop, stop, he's already dead? Exactly. That's what I thought.

I mean, I thought it was a great performance and I love seeing it, but it kind of felt relentless to me. And yeah, it was sort of like, okay, you've won. It was also fun and funny and it totally slayed in terms of his Marco boot cut jeans. Like, the outfit was incredible. Stephen, you mentioned the culture wars of the entire year. We have to mention something else that happened in February, and that was Trump firing the board of trustees at the Kennedy Center and then him getting elected chair.

So we took over the Kennedy Center. We didn't like what they were showing and various other things. We're going to make sure that it's good and it's not going to be woke. There's no more woke in this country. This woke has cost us a fortune and cost us our reputation. Yeah, that was a big story that we were following in the spring. the Trump administration sort of takeover of the Kennedy Center. We've seen the fallout of that for a couple of months now, especially in the spring.

He, you know, he named Richard Grinnell interim president who's still in that role now. He fired some of the programming staff. We've seen the Trump administration sort of sees on what the Kennedy Center has been historically. I think what we have still yet to see is what exactly they want to do with it or how music is going to play a role in the administration. What do you guys think? I personally, you know, I drive by the Kennedy Center all the time and I don't necessarily. get a chance to attend a lot of shows there, but I'm really looking forward to seeing Bawit de Bae performed in such a regal setting.

Well, I think it was very telling what happened when the incredible guitarist, Yasmin Williams, decided to play at the Kennedy Center to honor her commitment, but also to do it honestly as a form of protest. I think you covered that, right? Isabella, you covered Yasmin's appearance? Yeah, yeah. I was going to say, after, you know, when he installed Richard Grinnell as the interim president. There were a couple of heated exchanges with concerned artists who reached out to Richard Gernel wondering about the future of the Kennedy Center. Yasmin Williams was one of them. And, you know, despite the heated back and forth and somewhat, you know, hostile tone of the conversation, she did end up playing there in the fall and doing a

concert because she wants the Kennedy Center to stay open. She cares about the people who work there. And yeah, it's been really interesting to see how different artists, some have pulled out, some have continued with their performances. I think there's been a lot of back and forth on how different people are approaching it. I believe her performance was disrupted as well, wasn't it? I think there were some protesters. Yeah, that there were protesters. And there was some heckling going on while she was on stage.

Well, a lot of people did pull up. Ben Folds resigned as the artistic director. René Fleming also left. Issa Ray, Rihanna Giddens canceled their performances. Hamilton cast pulled out. I mean, if we want to go even broader and talk about how the Trump administration's policies on immigration have affected musicians, I mean, so many canceled tours over visa problems, including FCA Twigs.

Yeah, it's true. I just want to say we're only up to essentially February, and we've already talked about like 500 massive. And things that have happened at other points, I know. No, but it's true. I mean, it felt like a very top heavy year. February in particular was stacked. I mean, we haven't even mentioned that Beyonce, the Grammys in February. she finally wins album of the year.

As selected by the 13,000 voting members of the Recording Academy, the Grammy goes to Cowboy Carter. I mean, the Grammys were interesting this year. It was Beyonce's big year. She finally gets Album of the Year. She seemed genuinely, like, shocked

that receiving that award, and it was, you know, a moment that everyone has been waiting for for a very long time. It was also, like, Kendrick's year, right? the culmination of this big, you know, the rap beef with Drake, the release of his new album, the Super Bowl, like Kendrick's, you know, really like on a massive victory lap at this point. And I think there were so many performances at the Grammys this year that really solidified

this new generation of pop girls, even if, you know, that didn't quite pan out for the rest of the year. But I think Chapel, Dochi, Sabrina, Charlie. I mean, it was like one of the most fun years that I can remember actually watching the Grammy ceremony and enjoying the performances. Yeah, the Grammys being enjoyable is a headline. unto itself. Grammys actually enjoyed. Yeah, but I mean, I do think, you know,

they were a huge part of that Kendrick Victory lap. He played the Super Bowl the next weekend, but was taking home record of the year and Song of the Year for Not Like Us. And, I mean, the Kendrick story, I mean, he had one of the biggest hits of maybe the biggest hit of the first half of 2025 with Luther, featuring Siza.

Hey, Roman, No, 7, babe, drop it like it's hot. If this world was mine, I take it. dreams and make him most apply. If this world was mine, I take it in front of God. Introduce him to that light. Get them strictly with their fire. Which was just an inescapable R&B earworm.

I think it's one of his best songs among many, many, many, many, many great songs. You know, so the Grammys, I think, were a big part of where he just kind of racked up win after win after win. For me, it was all about Gen Z taking the stage. And that was

really through the performances. We had Sabrina, we had Dochi, incredible performance from Doche, Chapel Rhone. And it's interesting because not to leap forward in time too much, but we just had the same thing happen at the CMA Awards in Country with artists like the Red Clay Strays taking the stage and Lainey Wilson cementing her absolute number one top status in country. We have Changing of the Guard happening a lot this year, and the award shows really brought that home.

We had Changing of the Guards, but we also had a lot. lot of sort of beloved veteran artists come back this year in big ways that I wasn't expecting, starting again in February when the Alabama Shakes announced a reunion tour. That made me so happy as a former Alabama resident and a huge fan of that band. I went to see their show here in Nashville at the Amphitheater and tears were in my eyes, you guys. I mean, seriously, to hear thousands and thousands singing along and see them up on that stage, It made me so happy.

Riloh-Kiley? I got to see Riloh-Kiley this fall. I hadn't seen them live in 20, you know, probably about 20 years. And unfortunately, I was battling a perforated eardrum at the time. Oh, God. That's right. I remember that. But it was still incredible to get to experience. I mean, it really is a golden age for these reunions.

Because these artists' music never really has to go away due to streaming, you're able to, it's so much easier for veteran artists, I mean, if they can puncture the din of there being so much out there, there are opportunities to not only reach your old fans, but reach younger ones as well. And I always love to see, I always love to get, you know, some email in my inbox, you know, so-and-so puts out first album in 29 years. Pulp, put out the first album in a quarter of a century this year. Sugar, sugar came back with new music for the first time in forever. There's so many.

I wrote down a whole bunch here. Yeah, Clips came back with their first album in, I think, nine years. I thought it was like 14 or something. No, you're right. I think it's since like 2000 something. 2009, that's where you get in the nine. And it was a huge hit. And it's a great album.

It's a great album. It was a huge hit. It found its audience and they sound as vital as ever. We've got to move on to the next quarter, but I'm just going to rattle off some of the releases we got in the first quarter. Just along with the Bad Bunny, we had the Lady Gaga album that came out, her first in five years. Japanese breakfast came back. First album, four years.

We got the F.K.A. Twigs record in that first quarter, Usexua. Sharon Van Etten comes back with the attachment theory. Wow, what a wild swing. Did you see the show? Did you see the show, Robin? I totally went to that show. Oh, my God. She was just on fire.

Like, I've never seen her so thrilled. Yeah, full rock. She has become like a rock idol. Yeah, yeah. But also, how did that album come out this year? I feel like that album came out six years ago. I made some notes about artists we lost in the first quarter. There were many, including Marianne Faithful and Bill Fay.

I know you wanted to talk briefly and about Roberta Flack. Yeah, well, Roberta Flack, such a huge loss. You know, I think the beautiful thing with someone like Roberta is that her genius has been recognized in the past, you know, a few years very widely. and she got to experience a lot of love in her final years. But I'm glad we're all remembering her. I feel similar about Roy Ayers who we lost in March. And Marianne. You know, Marianne is someone who I think wasn't always recognized as central to rock and roll,

but when she left us, she received the goodbye she deserved. So I guess it was a good year for legacy in that these artists are being acknowledged, as they leave us. Well, and another person we lost in the first quarter who's, you know, a musician, but more music adjacent is David Lynch. Yeah, huge, huge for me. That was very, that was very emotional. Absolutely crushing loss.

Yeah. You know, and somebody who not only had his own, you know, kind of musical side and his own musical sensibility, but somebody who had always so lovingly provided, you know, showcases for the music that he loved. and was such a great caretaker of music. That was another one. I'm like, that was this year? I know.

Well, let's move to the second quarter. Something I've been going to tell you for a long time. It might hurt you. Hope you don't lose your mind. Well, I was just a boy. About eight years old. You threw me a Bible. One of the biggest movie stories of 2025,

but also a huge music story. Sinners. This film, Ryan Coogler's vampire movie, this artie vampire movie, full of music, full of vibrant, stylish, original music, become this massive phenomenon. And Anne and I, I know,

are both huge film buffs. And, you know, when you look at, like, the box office every year for, like, the biggest movies of the year, and it's just franchise, franchise, sequel, franchise. franchise, and all of a sudden just having an original piece of filmmaking, the music from that film is going to be as much a topic of the Oscars conversation as the film itself.

Yes, completely well. As a lifelong fan of the blues, I was so excited to see a film that tells the story of the blues so artfully. And of course, we have the presence of Buddy Guy. Really, one of the last standing from the classic era of electric blues, buddy guy is still with us. And to have him in the film and just really it's a profound meditation on how black Americans have given us so much musically and yet so much has been taken. Well, this is, I think the song that we've been listening to, I Lie to, performed by Miles Caton, is the song from the film. It's most definitely going to be nominated for Best Original Song, I think, when the Oscars come around.

And it features Miles Caiton, who, I mean, at least for me, came completely out of nowhere. And that one sequence in the movie, like, I think that's one of the sequences from any film that's, like, stayed with me the most this year is how Ryan Coogler manages to have these, like, intergenerational conversations with the evolution of black music and black art. And it was just a really beautiful interpretation of that. I was really blown away by the way that he pulled that off, but I think it ultimately worked really well, and it was a very poetic way to make that point in a very show-not-tell kind of way. Yeah, the thing about that scene to me was it was just so bonkers,

and yet it worked so perfectly. You never stopped and thought, well, wait a minute, what's Parliament doing here? No, whatever, right? You know, it's like... Exactly. This is brilliant. Well, I think this song I lied to you

will definitely come up to the Oscars this year, and there's another song that will probably, probably come up at the Oscars this year that came from another film that came out in the second quarter. And that's K-pop Demon Hunters. As NPR's K-pop Demon Hunter's correspondent, Go now live to Stephen Thompson, K-pop Demon Hunters, I mean, look, this is launching a franchise. Yes, no, this is only the beginning.

So to suggest that this is some standalone work that will never be monetized again would be pretty naive. But what a wonderful surprise. You know, this animated movie released on Netflix, you know, about two fictional K-pop groups, the Huntricks, who double as demon hunters, and Saja Boys, who are themselves demons, became one of the true authentic pop culture phenomena of 2025. And really, like, one of the biggest stories in movies this year and in music this year. These songs dominated on the pop chart.

It was a true word of mouth sensation where it didn't just feel like, it didn't just feel like an industry trying to game the charts. It felt like people were discovering this on their own and then playing it over and over and over and over again. And it served as a huge game. into K-pop music for a lot of music fans, you know, put some of the most indelible pop songs of the year onto the charts, and was a source of almost unanimous joy and praise. People really, really like this movie and really, really love these songs.

What do you think? Golden's the song? Golden's the primary song they're submitting for Oscar consideration. It's the one that's nominated for, it's not only nominated for a Grammy in the film category, but in Song of the Year. You know, it's going to be a big part of the awards conversation. it not for nothing, truly one of 2025's biggest hits.

And it's got a heartwarming story attached to it, right? Because one of the songwriters, E.J. She had kind of tried to make it as a K-pop performer and then had ended up I think moving to L.A. and then she writes a song and sings it, right? And that vocal performance is insane. Oh, boy.

I mean, if you haven't had a chance to go on YouTube and watch reaction videos of vocal coaches, hearing that song and speculating about how she hit the notes. Oh my God, did they use any sweetener, et cetera. Like the conversations around people just reacting to what a magnificent vocal performance that is has been fun in its own right. Can't wait to see her sing it at the Oscars. Please let her sing it at the Academy Awards. I would imagine that they're going to try to figure something out. They like writing.

I don't think that went well this year when they dropped the performances. It was insane. It was so wrong. But it was an extremely weak crop of songs. It was. I'm not defending the decision. I think those songs should be performed in the ceremony. I think you're completely right, Ann. But I get why they did it.

Well, there was another really big story that began to unfold in the second quarter and kind of dominated the headlines for months, starting in May, when jury selection for the Sean Combs trial began. Yeah, the sex trafficking and racketeering trial of Sean Combs, AKA Puff Daddy, P. Diddy, brother love, as some people know him. I was there for almost all of the trial, starting with jury selection until the very end of jury deliberations. It was a big story that seemed to get crazier and crazier as it went on. I think we were expecting media attention to somehow die down, and it only ramped up.

I think it was the big story of the year of how like the power and influence that Sean Combs had over the music and entertainment industry and how he wielded that power. and ultimately who it harmed. There were a lot of music industry cameos. You know, obviously Cassie Ventura testified, his ex-girlfriend and the singer, Kitt Cuddy testified, Don Rashard testified. I mean, it was a big music media story, and it was a hard one to follow. But yeah, we were there.

Isabella, do you think the verdict is causing or going to cause a chilling effect around sexual assaults and sexual harassment in the music industry? I mean, I don't think it's actually the verdict that's having that impact. I think what was the most interesting to watch was the people who were coming to the trial already had their minds made up that these allegations weren't something to take seriously, or at least a lot of the people there. I can tell you that the vast majority of people I saw during most of the days I were there were pro Sean Combs. They were pointing and laughing while these women were testifying. I think being at the trial gave me a sense that attitudes towards sexual assault and especially sexual assault regarding very powerful people have shifted in our society. think we are not where we were during the rise of Me Too, you know, eight years ago. I think that things, even before the verdict was handed out, I think that that started to become very clear.

And I think for a lot of people, the verdict reinforces that, that, you know, we're just in a different place now. And the seriousness with which people address those allegations looks very different today than it did during the beginning of Me Too. That's very depressing, I have to say. And disturbing. I mean, honestly, it was all so upsetting and just messed up that I had a hard time really engaging with it much beyond, you know, like the headlines and the top-level stuff. But definitely sucked up a lot of the oxygen in the spring and the summer. And that verdict came in July in the third quarter. He was acquitted of racketeering and he was acquitted of sex trafficking.

Yeah. And he was convicted on two accounts of transportation for prostitution. And, you know, ultimately, I think the judge did address the fact that there was a lot of evidence of physical abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse, and that those are things to be taken seriously, but he was not convicted on, you know, those most serious charges. Some of the other stuff on my list here, Billy Joel falling down during one of his live shows was so heartbroken by that. And then he was later diagnosed with something called normal pressure hydrocephalus, which you can recover from. But, you know, I worship that guy in his music so

much, and I've never seen him live. Oh, really? That's crazy. Never. Never seen him left. But did you watch the documentary. I will say that that was such sad news about him counseling his tour, but that the documentary, that was a really deep and profound look at his life, his psychology, his family history, really one of the, in a year of very good music docs,

that was a great one. Yeah, I should have made note of that documentary in the third quarter. I think that came out in July. It was Billy Joel, and so it goes. And I did see that. I think it was two parts. Yeah, and it was really, really well done. I just, I didn't, had no idea how much he had struggled, particularly early on in his life with depression and he spent time in the hospital. Well, and I think that documentary is part of a larger conversation that has been unfolding very slowly over the course of the years and certainly over the course of this year about musicians and mental health. Yeah.

And how kind of a lot of the structures around mental health that exist for a lot of people don't necessarily, aren't necessarily available. even to very famous and successful musicians. And, you know, the Bruce Springsteen biopic that came out, you know, later in the year than we're currently talking about is, I think, part of that conversation where, you know, Springsteen has talked openly about his battles with depression. And I think slowly there's been kind of a drip, drip, drip, drip in favor of making sure that musicians have access to the mental health care that they need. Yes, absolutely. And it gives me a chance to mention my favorite. music doc of the year. Swamp Dog gets his pool painted. You guys have probably not seen this movie, but you absolutely have to. It is totally genius. It is about the unclassifiable roots music

phenomenon who is Swamp Dog. He's an elder. And his life in Burbank, his whole life, but like currently his life in Burbank, where he lives with some of his friends and collaborators, after the loss of his wife. And these guys, they had their own struggles, many different kinds of struggles. And it's really a movie about mutual care. That's what I have to say, which I think Stephen fits in with what you're saying. It's a beautiful movie. It's so heartwarming.

I encourage everyone to watch it. Well, we've kind of already morphed into the third quarter here. Let's talk about the Oasis Reunion Tour that started in July on July 4th. Oh, my gosh. It was so massive. It was, I had friends who. went, you know, flew to England to see them. It's just such a cultural event for people who love Britpop.

Yeah, major. But then on the other hand, I don't know. I think it was like a big nothing for people who didn't care about a waste. So it was strange. Maybe it's very much indicative of this moment where you can have massive, massive crowds of fans freaking out about something. And then a lot of people who are just like, meh, whatever. I mean, that's the thing.

I was going to ask, was it a really big thing? It was. Did people really care? Because I, that band. It was. Robin was on his end retreat during the entire. I mean, first of all, if Oasis was your band, it's the biggest thing on Earth. But it's also worth noting, I mean, this is the product of years and years and years of false starts and canceled plans.

Yes. And. Kane and Able level brothers fighting. Yeah. Wheelbarrow is full of money. being dumped out in front of these guys trying to get them to reunite and tour together and just get their act together long enough to perform on stage for a few hours each night. And so I think part of it is that story has been kind of self-sustaining over the course of the years that these guys just could not get along well enough to tour together. And the fact that they were able to not only reunite and mount this very successful tour, but like leave that experience with, you know, the possibility of more touring in the future.

you know, is a story. I think it was also a big multigenerational moment for Oasis. Like, I saw, I mean, I didn't go, but I saw so many videos of parents with their kids, how important it was to, like, for older fans of Oasis to bring their kids to these shows, a lot of young people discovering them for the first time. I mean, N.A. Scalliger, who is the daughter of one of the brothers, was on tour with them and documenting it. Like, there was a big sort of family aspect to this tour that I thought was really beautiful to watch from afar. Well, maybe this is a good time to talk about the state of life

music in general because I felt like 2025 was a year when I heard about more tour cancellations than ever before and I heard more about just the punishing economics of touring live than ever before and it was really kind of depressing like

you know garbage they had to cancel their tour and Shirley Manson told the crowd that you know they just can't afford to do it anymore because it's gotten so expensive and you think my gosh if bands that are filling massive stadiums are struggling How are any bands surviving, especially when streaming services and that whole model has already sort of cut off all of their money supply and touring and merch were the only things keeping them afloat?

It felt like a particularly grim year for live music to me. Both in streaming and in touring, there are gigantic corporations that are taking all the money. Yeah. And so it's very hard to make the economics work. I agree with you guys. So many artists feel squeezed. living in Nashville, I see this all the time. And even things like airlines changing their policies about how you can, you know, can you bring your instrument on board, because it's so dangerous

to check your instrument. Do you have to buy another airplane seat to bring your guitar on board? I saw so many reports of that this year from people I know in Nashville. And we're seeing more and more artists stand up to this. Earlier this year, Caroline Rose did, she released an album that she only put on band camp, like she refused to put it on any of the DSPs, and she only toured independent venues. And she told me it was like the most rewarding things she's ever done, but it's not sustainable. So I think, yeah, more and more artists are, we're seeing less than less of like a middle ground for working artists who can actually support themselves making music and playing on the road, unless you're, you know, Taylor Swift or Beyonce.

Well, one other live show that I want to be sure to mention that happened in the third quarter was Ozzy Osbourne's final concert that actually was on July 5th the day after the Oasis reunion tour started. Ozzy Osbourne's final concert with Black Sabbath. He did much of the show. Well, I think actually the entire show, seated because of his battle with Parkinson's. And then he ended up passing away. I think it was only a couple weeks afterwards.

Yeah, and that was a huge loss. I mean, you talk about somebody who's been a part of the cultural firmament for decades now, not only as a musician, as a heavy metal icon, but as a very, very influential reality TV star. That's true. You know, somebody who's been a staple of commercials, somebody who's just been part of the cultural conversation, certainly my entire life, and I'm pretty old. It was a huge loss. But the final concert was really heartwarming.

And back to what I was saying before about how, It's always hard to lose people and certainly hard to lose legends, but it's been great to see the appreciation for some of these elders while they're still alive. And I really felt that with Ozzy. And I was so happy that that concert happened, and he got to really bask in the love of so many of his children, essentially. We also lost in the third quarter, Sly Stone and Brian Wilson. Major, major, major.

We are, you know, for so many years, even back when I was, I was working at the New York Times many years ago in the 90s. We were kind of preparing for this moment that would happen. It is just a natural life cycle. And we're hitting it with these legends. It's hard, but it's humanity, you know. Yeah, but you mentioned, I mean, this may be the first time that these names are spoken in the same sentence. But, you know, you mentioned, you know, an artist receiving their flowers while they're still alive.

Not only did that happen with Ozzy Osbourne. It happened with Connie Francis. That's true. That's very true. Johnny Francis had this massive viral moment with Pretty Little Baby blowing up on TikTok. Pretty little baby. Pretty little baby. You say that maybe you'll be thinking of me and try to love me.

Pretty little baby. I'm hoping that you do. And she got to experience this wave of intergenerational love and appreciation very, very short. before she died. And that really is one of the things, you know, it's very easy for us to fixate on all of the terrible things about the internet and technology right now. But the fact that young music fans have at their fingertips access to this incredibly vast archive allows some of these elders to receive their flowers in ways that they wouldn't have in previous generations. I just want to remind everybody that we're going to do the best albums and best songs

episodes as separate episodes, which is one of the reasons why we're not spending much time here on individual albums that came out because there were a lot of big ones. But I do want to flag one that came out in the third quarter at the end of August, the Sabrina Carpenter album, Man's Best Friend. And I think of this one because this was one of those albums. And again, this could just be my perception because we all live in bubbles. But it felt to me like there were so many artists and albums like the Sabrina Carpenter one that were massively anticipated and get released and everyone's excited. And then two weeks later or even a week later, it's like nobody's talking about it anymore.

Am I wrong? I think you're wrong. What about the Lord record? Well, sure. I think you're wrong also. Yeah, I think that's a misconception. At least, I mean, certainly in terms of the Sabrina Carpenter, the Sabrina Carpenter record is still in the top 10.

You know, she's continued to have a massive year. She had a number one single with Manchild, which has one of the best videos of 2025. Maybe not to the degree that her kind of the explosion of her career that took place last year, but it felt like a continuation of it. The Lord Record, I think, had more of a trajectory, at least chart-wise of the kind that you're talking about, where she put out this massively anticipated record, definitely had a lot of interest, and then it kind of quickly subsided. I mean, again, I'm not saying these are bad records, but like the Hymn record. I don't know.

Maybe it's just, maybe again, this is just my perception because we consume so much music and we have to move on quickly. The weekend record, the weekend record that came out this year. We didn't end up really seeing that bubbling in the consciousness. I'm going to walk the middle line between you two, Robin, and Stephen. I agree with your impulse to say, Robin, that it was an underperforming year for pop phenomena. that doesn't mean the albums are bad. That doesn't mean they're not selling. But Sabrina's a great example of that. Like she continued to reach milestones. For example, I saw her play at the Grand Ole Opry for the first time, which was a wonderful moment for her. But it didn't feel like these artists were

ruling the zeitgeist. And maybe it's just because the whole phenomenon of women, you know, really ruling mainstream pop, you know, had reached this fever pitch with the, tour with Sabrina's emergence, with, you know, Olivia Rodrigo, right. Brat summer. Yeah, exactly. That this is the inevitable sort of morning after come down a little bit. I agree with you, Ann. I do think some of this is a little bit of like a hangover from how big 2024 was and just how splashy, like all of these artists and pop were.

At the same time, I think this is also just a symptom of how fractured audiences and fan bases are right now and just how much we're all in our own individual algorithms and playlists and bubbles. Because one of the albums, Robin, that I know you had referenced as part of this, was the Addison Ray album, which did come out to sort of a big splash. And then it was subdued. But I went to see her in the fall. And the hype is very much alive. Like on the tour, it was like, you know, people screaming. I couldn't see anything.

It was all phone screens. It was no one could drink, right? The bar was completely empty. Everyone was 21 and under. I was by far the oldest person there. And it was just like, wow, this is a, this is a. much bigger phenomenon than I realized or than I would realize if I wasn't just taking the time to listen to the album. So I think part of it is just we're all so segmented that it's hard to have like this big sort of monoculture moment the way that we did last year. I think it's important to kind of point out here. I think part of what we're getting at here is how many artists, their fan bases exist in silos that are that are not necessarily interacting with each other. And it's very easy. Certainly for me as somebody who writes about the billboard charts, week to think of the billboard charts as the only metric to gauge popularity. And it just isn't.

It's amazing how many artists essentially never hit the billboard charts but can fill stadiums. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Or even have the streams. I mean, I've looked at artists on, say, Spotify to see how, you know, I know they're filling massive stadiums, 20,000 people. And then I go to Spotify and they've got under two million, you know, monthly listens or whatever. And I think, where's this audience coming from? I feel like Conan Gray as an artist is kind of in that category, for example. Like he does, I mean, I know he has a huge following.

Does he have, you know, has he had charted hits? I mean, probably, but. His albums do, but he kind of has part of that trajectory that Issa referred to a little bit about Addison Ray where like it blows up in the first week. But all of the efforts are focused on getting this album to chart as high as possible in its first week, at which point it just drops into oblivion.

And that trajectory plays out over and over and over again because every new artist who puts out an album is competing with Fleetwood Max rumors. Yeah, exactly. For chart placement or, you know, Lil Wayne's greatest hits. Or Shaboozy Forever with one song or Teddy Swims. Yeah. Oh, my God.

Ordinary. Or, oh, my God, we haven't even talked about Alex Warren and Ordinary. Oh, must be. Okay, last bit. Robin, you can cut this up. I just have to note the historic moment that happened in Nashville when Somber and Conan Gray played on the same night. And they did meet. They somehow walked across town and met each other.

And like, not in an alleyway, but it's somewhere backstage. Historic moment that no one noticed except for tens of thousands of people. I did see it on TikTok. Oh, yes. Yes. I love it. I love it. I will say, and like, I'm glad you brought up Somber because I do.

think boys are having a sneaky year in pop this year. They are. Obviously, there's Alex Warren, role model, somber. Yes. Even Conan Gray. Like, these people have huge fan bases and they play to really big crowds at festivals. Like the role model phenomenon has been really interesting to watch this year. Yeah, absolutely. That whole Sally thing. Yeah. Well, and I went to the, I went to the, you mentioned festivals. I went to the All Things Go festival here in the D.C. area this fall. And yeah, having having that experience around like medium build. Yeah, I love medium build.

That's my guy. I love that guy. He's great. But it was like watching all these 20-year-olds freak out, and I'm like, is that guy medium-build or is that role model? I can't remember. Or Joe. Or Joe.

Or Joe. Or Joe or whatever, right? Or Joe. For sure. No mention of Benson Boone. Come on. Don't forget Benson Boone. Guys, Benson Boone did kind of fall off.

But did he, though? Because I think he's really big globally. But Robin, to your point, I mean, even. indie sensations like geese everybody of a certain kind especially people in new york who are hipsters they love that band call me out anne but i mean that it was a it was a true phenomenon i think but for whom for not for everyone not necessarily in nashville you know not necessarily i don't know if it resonated as much on the west coast i think that i think i like the geese record a lot i've i've I'm looking forward to being able to see them live.

I never have. But, you know, I feel like even a huge explosion is happening across a vast expanse from a lot of people. I feel like geese was being pushed onto me so heavily. And I've seen a lot of discussion about this online. Like, is the hype real or is everyone just talking about them and we're creating an echo chamber where everyone is idolizing geese and obsessed with this album? Because it was like, I would finish listening to something and Spotify would automatically play the geese record. Or like one of those songs is all over TikTok. Like I think part of it is also just, I hear it everywhere, so I come back to it. But I don't know how much of it is me seeking it

out. Yeah. I mean, what's that's just music listening today? I don't know. Yeah, what's the Bo Burnham line, the backlash to the backlash to the thing that's just begun? So it came out at the end of September. This is one of those albums that actually I love so much and I just assumed all my friends with similar music tastes would also love. And it's so mixed. It's just across the board. Some really, really hate it. Some don't. get it. Some really, really love it. This is my point. This is my point. Like, even the, even the thing that we should all be uniting around, people are not

uniting around. We should be uniting around geese. This could solve our national crises, all of them, if we just united around geese. All right. Well, so that brings us to the fourth and final quarter. I do want to talk about some more music that came out in this fourth quarter because there's some very important big releases. But I actually want to start with something that happened in September, and that was on September 13th when the Lilith Fair documentary dropped, building a mystery. If you have not seen this, and I want to talk about it because I finally

just watched it recently, and it's really been on my mind because I was so deep into the Lilith Fair core scene back in the 90s. I listened to all of that music so much. I love Sarah McLaughlin, you know, Alanis Morissette, Joan Osborne, you name it. Tori. Tori. Tori. Oh, my gosh, although I don't think Tori ever played Lilith Fair. No, she did it. I know she chose to not. Yeah. PJ Harvey, I consider part of that scene, although she also never played Lilith Fair. Fiona. Fiona, oh my gosh. But, you know, it wasn't just that if you watched the documentary. I guess so much grief from friends when I say, oh, Lilith Fair. Oh, my God. I love that. Because everyone assumes it's like a sappy, overly earnest singer-songwriter stuff. But it's not just that. And I mean, you watch the

documentary. My gosh, Missy Elliott. Her first tour Yep was for Lilith Fair crazy and if you watch the documentary

you get to not only see Ann Powers as a talking head talking about it you get to see Anne

at Lilith Fair over 25 years ago oh my God it was I couldn't believe it you think how I felt

I didn't know that was that was in there until I saw the documentary I just assumed you had the footage or something

and gave it to they found that they were bugging me forever Jessica Hopper, the great music critic and filmmaker, was very involved in making of that film. And that's how I got connected to it. But, yeah, they were, like, coming to me for, oh, I don't know, like a year or two.

Don't you have any pictures of yourself? And I'm like, no, I didn't save anything. They found it, though, somehow. So pretty cool. Pretty crazy. Well, Anne, I've got to believe that this was really important to you, too, and a big moment. And the documentary is arriving somewhere, between the 25th and the 30th anniversary, you could say it was the 25th anniversary of the tour

ending or the nearly 30th anniversary of it beginning. But it feels like this was a year when I heard people referencing that era more than ever. I think of bands like Moona, fronted by Katie Gavin. I heard so many people, Stephen, I know you're a big Katie Gavin fan, like make references to Little Fair in her sound. Yeah, I mean, seeing Moona in concert and having them kind of culminate their set with their performance of a thousand miles by Vanessa Carlton. Oh, wow. Yes, we did an episode of All Songs Plus

on that song. You did. Yeah. Well, I think the Lilith Revival has landed at exactly the perfect moment because, well, we didn't mention Sarah McLaughlin is also back with the new album this year. Very good new album. Came out in September as well and it is genuinely great. Yeah. It is so good. So women

have really firmly claimed their place as visionaries and innovators and as really, really popular artists. And I think we talk so much about mainstream pop girlies that we forget that the playing field has changed across the board in every genre. Even in blues, it's kind of wild, but there are so many young women blues guitarists, like, you know, Grace Bowers, for example, that are amazing. So I think this is the perfect time for Lilith Fair to have a revival. We bring it back, bring it back, bring the tour back. And I think Lars was the one who was talking about this for a while,

that like this style of sound, like Maggie Rogers transitioning to like a folkier sounds. You know, we have people like Jensen McRae, like acoustic pop, and those sort of like women singer-songwriters really have been back for a few years, I think. And it's something that audiences are really embracing. I want to go back to Bad Bunny because we said he was sort of present all year long. And he ended up having a really big fall as well. September, late September, I think it was September 29th. He gets to have to play the Super Bowl halftime show at next year's Super Bowl.

And it completely blows up. I mean, as can be expected, there was some backlash to the idea that, you know, a Latin artist was going to be playing the Super Bowl in 2026. I think there was a lot of people making the reminder that Puerto Rico is part of the United States. That part was really crazy. I think the line that we need to underline, but I think it is an important part to bring up. But yeah, I mean, I think to Stephen's point, like, he's one of the biggest artists in the world. He put out this huge revolutionary album, and it makes complete sense for him to be there.

But I think the conversation around it has been a little surprising just because I truly don't believe that this many people didn't know who Bad Bunny was, to be honest. I agree with you completely. But I think he's kind of on a similar trajectory as Kendrick. Yeah, I think he's having this big year. Then he goes on to win album of the year for the first time at the Latin Grammys. He's nominated for Album of the Year, Song of the Year, and Record of the Year. At the general Grammys coming up in February, he'll be doing the Super Bowl. I mean, I think he's really sort of kicking off a big winning season.

And the controversy, I mean, you know, he doesn't really seem like he cares all that much. No. Isabella, can you explain something to me? Why do you think this controversy is arising, given that Shakira and Jim, and Jennifer Lopez. Thank you. I was just going to look at that for. Why do you think it's happening now?

I can think of a few reasons. Yeah, no, no, no. I know why it's happening. But he has played the Super Bowl before. Yeah, he was on the stage with. He came out with Shakira and J-Loh. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I guess you're right.

But given the precedent, it's not unprecedented. Yeah, no. And I think Bad Bunny has become increasingly political and increasingly unapologetic in his music in a way that, I mean, he always has been, but I think it's become more and more explicit, even for people who weren't sort of reading into those messages before. And, you know, I think that rubs a certain part of the country the wrong way because he's standing up for immigrants. He's standing up for Latino communities. And, you know, he famously says he doesn't care what other people think. So I think, obviously he has haters for that.

I honestly can't think of anyone else who should play the Super Bowl this year. I really can't. Like, it's such an obvious pick to me. Well, it did seem like, if you recall, the announcement of Bad Bunny performing at the Super Bowl was delayed by several weeks. It dropped weeks later than it usually does. And at the time, there was a lot of speculation swirling that the halftime performer would be Taylor Swift. Oh, yeah.

And when you think about it, I don't know who, I can't think of who else might play the Super Bowl. I think there was an assumption for a time that it would be her. And whoever said yes, whoever said no, that was a lot of the conversation that I certainly had this assumption it was going to be Taylor Swift.

you know, and she was probably assuming that Travis Kelsey would be playing in that game, but Robin, that seems exceedingly unlikely. Well, they announced their engagement. I think it was the end of August, and the chiefs have gone on to have an absolutely dismal season. All I can say is, I believe Taylor when she says she wants to take a little time off. I do not believe Taylor when she says that. I know it's possible to believe, but I actually, I really think she wants to have at least six months where she doesn't have to stage an insane spectacle.

I don't know. Well, we should talk about a Taylor's album that came out, at least in an October, Life of a Showgirl. So she puts off this record, and I have to admit, I thought there would be a backlash. not expect the backlash to be so intense.

So she also, I do think it was the way the record dropped and the fact that the track that has widely been interpreted as a diss on Charlie X-CX leaked the night before the record was released. Right guys? I'm right about that. And that's just like, it was like putting, you know, something really sour in the punch. I think that really fed the backlash. It was perhaps inevitable at the same time.

Did the record work 100%? I don't think it worked 100%. But I was surprised by the intensity of the backlash. Well, I think some of the backlash against this record is also rooted in the way that it was rolled out. Not only the many, many, many, many variant physical editions of this record that were compelling fans to buy, but I think there were 27 different physical variant editions of this record. Yeah, but that's capitalism. I mean, to a certain extent, everyone's doing that.

I know completely, believe me, I write about the Billboard charts every week. Every single pop star does this. Every pop star hopes and expects that fans will buy multiple copies of their record to help you kind of goose their sales numbers. But it felt like there was a little bit of a tipping point in the conversation around that where it started to feel more like exploitation of fans and fans' willingness to shell out money. But, you know, I think she has also reached this level of omnipresence, she's essentially too big to fail.

And I do think that fans were disappointed in this record in ways that I haven't heard them be disappointed in other Taylor Swift record. That is definitely true. Well, like I said, we're going to talk a whole lot more about the best albums and songs and everything in separate episodes. But there was one other very big album that came out in this last quarter that I have to mention, even though I just mentioned it on All Songs Considered, well, it was on New Music Friday, and we had it on the show.

And that's Rosalia's Lux. Album of the year for me, Stephen, I think it's album of the year for you. I don't know, Isabella? Yeah, I mean, I was just completely, like my jaw was on the ground, definitely album of the year. She exceeded all expectations, and yeah, she's back. She's back, and her crowns on her head. That halo is firm on the top of her head. I think the rollout has been great, too, and I expected nothing less, but she's, you know,

her listening party was gorgeous. If you saw images from it, she's really able to make clear why she created. did this frame work for her music? I mean, who else brought it to the level of opera? Who else brought it to the, you know, the level of Lobo M, only Rosalia? Yeah, and I think going back to what we were talking about earlier, about the algorithm and how fractured everyone is, I think she, it's been really interesting to see her talk about how she doesn't want to make things easy for her audience. I went to one of the listening sessions, and it was really beautiful that she really just wanted you to sit there and spend, you know, the entire time with the music, sitting still,

taking it all in, reading the lyrics, understanding the translation. I appreciate how much she doesn't want to make this digestible for people, and she wants you to work and to earn it. And I think that's really commendable right now. The degree to which you can get lost down a rabbit hole of exploring all the sounds and all the vibes and translations of the lyrics and the themes of this record. I mean, I was halfway through this record the first time I listened to it. And I thought, oh, I think this is the album of the year. Yeah. And how often does that happen?

Well, we've got a whole month's worth of year and stuff coming all through December. As I mentioned, best songs, best albums. We're going to have a listener poll. We're bringing that back. The poll itself is up now so you can vote for the year's best albums. What else? We're going to have songs that hit hard in 2025. We've got that ongoing series.

Vikings' Choice. Stephen, you and I will have our annual holiday extravaganza. We sure will. A very tolerable Christmas. We're hitting the road this year, headed to Wisconsin. That's right. But what a ride. We'll see you at 2025.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. That's right. Absolutely. Ampowers, Isabella Gomez, Sarmiento, Stephen Thompson. Thanks so much, everyone. This was really fun. Thanks, go. Thank you.

And for NPR music, I'm Robin Hilton. It's All Songs Considered.