Nuanced. - 105. Enkay 47: Mental Health & Vulnerability in Hip-Hop

Episode Date: April 24, 2023

In a recent interview, Aaron and Enkay47 discuss the rapper's inspiring journey to success and his passion for hip-hop. Enkay47's musical genius is highlighted throughout the interview, particularly in his collaborations with Gawne on songs like "Basement" and "Twenty21," and his own tracks like "Is That What You Wanted," "Rainfall," and "In My Head." The conversation also touches on Enkay47's latest EP, "Fragments," and his upcoming song "No One Can Stop Me." Additionally, Enkay47 opens up about his most vulnerable tracks, "Shooting Star" and "I'm Not Okay," and how his music speaks to mental health and overcoming addiction. The interview leaves a positive and inspiring message about chasing your dreams and overcoming obstacles.Enkay47, born Nathan Kawaguchi, is an American rapper and songwriter from Silverton, Oregon. He began writing music at age 15 to make friends and was later inspired to help others through music. Enkay47's music spans multiple genres, including heartfelt acoustic tracks like "Once in a Lifetime" and raw underground bangers like "Ready for War II." His music has been featured in The Source, Hip Hop DX, and Billboard, and even appeared on "American Dad!" Enkay47 has released several successful albums, including "The Iron Curtain" and "My Own Lane," which charted highly on iTunes and Google Play. His music has received over 47 million streams and over 100 chart placements worldwide. With vulnerable subject matter and a unique style, Enkay47 is quickly making a name for himself as an up-and-coming artist in the music industry.Listen to Enkay 47: https://enkay47.com/Chapters:0:00 Introduction2:55 Getting Started in Rap9:46 Twenty21 Ft. Gawne17:19 Is That What You Wanted? by Enkay 4722:49 Rainfall by Enkay 4725:42 In My Head Ft. Sarah Clearly28:48 Safe by Enkay 4735:19 Shooting Star by Enkay 4740:47 I'm Not Okay by Enkay 4744:47 Basement Ft. Gawne & Atlus46:36 Demons by Enkay 4750:16 Coward Ft. Vin Jay56:28 Push by Enkay 471:00:26 One More Drink by Enkay 471:03:29 Love with Borderline by Enkay 471:09:09 No One Can Stop Me Ft. Durand The Rapper1:18:48 Tim's TakeSend us a textThe "What's Going On?" PodcastThink casual, relatable discussions like you'd overhear in a barbershop....Listen on: Apple Podcasts   SpotifySupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

This is the Bigger Than Me podcast. Here's your host, Aaron P. One of the reasons that I love rap is because you get to be authentic, honest, vulnerable, and share some of the trials, tribulations, and unfairnesses that you've overcome. My guest is incredible at covering topics that are hard to talk about, that are challenging to think about, and that push us to our brink. I think he talks about depression, mental health. well-being, growth, all of it in such an intricate, thoughtful way. My guest today is NK-47.

NK, one of my favorite all-time rappers, a true gentleman, a mench, if there ever was one. I'm so grateful to be sitting down with you today. Would you mind introducing yourself for individuals who may not have heard of you? Absolutely. Matt, thank you so much for having me, by the way. You saw me what a munch was the other day. And it's a super cool word, man. I've never heard of that before.

So kudos to you, man. My name's NK. I have 47. It was weird putting the 47. Like, it feels too long, like too wordy. You know what I mean? I'm rambling. But I, yeah, I'm NK.

I'm 25 years old. And I'm a hip-hop artist from Portland, Oregon. Okay, you have to answer a question for my producer, Tim, first. Why do we have rap handles? Where does this come from? Your real name is Nathan. But what makes the decision to call yourself something else? I have no fucking idea.

Can I say fuck on this? Of course. Yeah, say whatever you like. Good, bro. Because I don't think I wouldn't be able to feel what I wanted to. So I appreciate the flexibility. Man, so my initials are NNK, right? It's Nathan Kawaguchi.

the 47 man so it has two different meanings um so one is like as most people think it's like the gun right um and second is because of numerology like the number 11 um i love numerology i know a lot of people i think it's really esoteric and understandably so but um the number 11 is like you know a number for healing and guidance and prosperity in my life that this is number 11. So, like, I like to view my music as a way to guide people through dark times. You know what I mean? How does that tie in with the number 47?

It's just 4 plus 7. Oh, okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Yes. I mean, NK11 just felt kind of weird. You know what I mean? And the 4-7 kind of tied in with the gun, right?

You have, like, the fastest soul lyrics that it makes sense. It's like the fast lyrics, the rap style. You know what I mean? Yeah. How did you get started in rap? What, like, there's usually a route for people as to how they get interested in their, their musical endeavor, their artistic endeavor. When did you start to go, hey, this is my thing. I love, I love what I'm seeing.

Man, I mean, I, sorry to think about that. Man, so I was, I was really young when I got into a rap. Like, I cannot play any instrument, right? I can't sing very well. I mean, now I've definitely improved, but, like, I could never sing well, bro, like, basically tell them that. And I always loved writing, though. Like, I love telling stories.

And when I was younger, like, I just went through a lot of really personal things that I couldn't talk to anybody about. So what I did to cope with that was I wrote stories, right? and I heard Eminem's the Eminem show for the first time. And that was like the first really hip-hop-oriented record that really resonated with me. Because I grew up listening to Rock primarily. And when I heard that, I was like, whoa, like someone can articulate himself this well and tell stories this well about his life.

And it makes me feel like I'm going through it, even though I'm. not and as soon as I heard that record it was fucking cleaning out my closet changed my life man I've been goosebumps right now bro just talking about it because I remember the exact moment and I was like this is what I want to do I think I was I believe 13 or 14 and since then man that's all I've done like I just write raps I have fucking notebooks upon notebooks full of just raps that I wrote when I was a kid you know what I mean yeah was it a good outlet did you feel like you were able to share your voice and find a space to do that? Because I think that that's such a deep problem that people can find themselves in, which is they have things to

say. They have emotions they need to express and no outlet for it. And I think in a lot of ways, we're really lucky that you found this outlet. Man, I feel extremely grateful that I found this outlet. I'm not good at very much, bro. Like, I'm not a super talented individual. I'm someone that has to find something I really enjoy and work my ass off at him for a very long time before I yield the results that I want. And hip hop was that, man, writing was that. And I don't know, I can talk about this forever, man. I just, I love hip hop.

I love writing. I love connecting with people. I've never met, like, such as yourself through my lyrics. Like, I love telling my story and captivating people that, again, I've never met. in such a powerful way that they feel compelled to check out the music and say write me a DM that's miles long telling me their life story you know what I mean like it's music is such a powerful medium and I don't know man like I said I can go on forever about this but I think you know what I'm saying yeah I love your comment though that it takes you a lot of work because you see people who come in

with skill and you kind of expect them to be the most successful and And I think that that's a falsehood. The people who really do well don't rely on some rooted like, oh, I'm super good at this and that's why I'm popular. Because they're not willing to put in the work that someone who doesn't come at it with some, oh, I'm already really good at this and I'm just going to build on it. You see this a lot with the UFC. People who come in with a preordained skill set, they don't know what it's like to be pushed in their work ethic or challenged in a different area. They start to fold because they don't have that mental strength, that mental fortitude to push forward. When things aren't going well, when there's pressure, when the skill isn't living up to expectations, they don't have that ability.

And that's what separates the good from the great is because they'll just work harder than everybody else. Absolutely. But man, and music is, if any industry is the industry where you need to persevere through challenges, it's fucking hip-hop. I mean, there is such an oversaturation of artists in the market that it's like artists in the market. That could be a cool. What the hell is that saying? I'm talking about artists in the market. I'm glad I have you to keep me on track.

There's just such an oversaturation of artists in the market. It's like you're going to get told no a thousand times more than you're going to get sold yes. And unless you're in this industry for at least five to ten years, consistently grinding, investing thousands of tens of thousands of dollars into your crap, you're not going anywhere. like you're just not and the ability to persevere through all of that in my opinion is immensely immensely more powerful than just being good at rap and calling it that you don't I mean I love that this is fair and unfair but I love that there's a price to entering the market that it takes that commitment because then you're all in and all of my favorite rappers

all of my favorite musical creators they're all in there's not another option And Justin Clancy said it really well. He's like, I can't go get another nine to five job when I know that there's people in Vancouver living off my lyrics and being motivated and inspired. And there is this cost that goes into it, but it means that you're all in. And I don't think we see the everyday people you see at the grocery store or walking down the road. They're not all in on whatever they're doing. They're half in. They're working on this.

They maybe got this going on, a little bit of here, a little bit there. But they're not all in the way you're all in. exactly exactly and that's like you know those with the saying if you have a plan B your plan A is way less way more hold up let me backtrack do you have a plan B your plan A is a lot less likely to work is what I'm trying to say it's like with hip hop and with music and really any creative endeavor that you have if you're not going at a full speed ahead giving everything that you have towards it is it's not going to fucking work I mean you might have a moment of success, right? But unless you love it and you put everything and your entire being

into it, like, you're not going to compete with somebody that will. You just die. And you're trying to get buy in from other people. That's what I think about with the podcast a lot is I'm asking other people to give up an hour of their time, half an hour of their time. So I have to be all in if they're going to tune in. Like if I'm kind of doing this and doing it off the side of mind and don't really care about it and not taking it too seriously, how can I possibly expect people to tune into that when you're not putting everything you have into it. And I'd like to talk about 2021 because this is a song about the ebbs and flows of your career and putting in the work. How did that song with Gone come about? Man, first off, I, I love that track, bro. Yeah, I just start.

Gone is one of those people that, like, constantly inspires me. And everyone that I collaborate with on my records, I always want to make sure that they're pushing me to another level, right? And Don is one of those people, man. Every time I hear I'm rap, I'm like, yo, I want to be able to do that. You know what I mean? Like, how the fuck did he do this multi-syllivic rhyme scheme pattern? And he just does it so flawlessly, man. It's like he doesn't try, but he is one of the hardest working people I know, man,

in the music industry. So yeah, let me preface with that, I guess. um 20 21 came into play because i i was doing this 20 series for a while called 2018 2019 2020 and up until 2020 is i reached uh kind of uh the pinnacle in my career at the time i uh i got contacted by sprite for the spotify thing i uh i got to go to l a and just meet a bunch of really cool people my spotify was killing it my youtube was killing it um i was making the most money i had at that time And what happened is I decided to rebrand because I wasn't feeling passionate about hip hop anymore.

I wanted to sing and do acoustic records. I don't fucking know why, man. It was like a weird epiphany I had. And I started releasing acoustic music under the name NK. And I invested like 10K into it. I invested everything I had into it for like a six month period. And it totally tanked, man. My numbers went from 250k to like 130 on spot.

If I alone within like about six to seven months, my NK plan totally failed, bro, like totally backclassed. And the reason I'm saying all of that is because in 2021, that's the primary inspiration behind it was doing the rebrand and watching it fail. And I was really angry. I was angry with myself because I allowed myself to invest everything I had into a rebrand and it didn't work. I felt stupid.

And I was also really angry at the fans because they weren't resonating with what I was resonating with, which, you know, hindsight's 2020, man, because it's just kind of a selfish perspective, right? Because people follow music, it inspires them, and it resonates with them. And if me as the artist wasn't making music that connected with people, it's like, that's not their fault, you know what I mean? that's my fault. Like, uh, if NF just started fucking playing the banjo and did folk music, like I, I don't know if I follow it, bro. Like, you know what I mean? Um, yeah, I guess

I'm saying all this to say because I was just in a really dark place, man, when I made that record. Um, and I, I really needed to get it out. Um, I was like, I don't know, man, I was like 285 pounds at the time, which for me is the biggest I've ever been. I was constantly drunk. I mean, like, I don't know, man, you know you're an alcoholic when you drink to avoid the withdrawals. You know what I mean? For days on end, like, when you wake up drunk and that's your new norm, like, that's a problem. And I was just doing a bunch of other shit that I'm not even going to talk about on here. And that song was kind of like the accumulation of the anger and resentment that I built up towards myself, you know, everything that I internalized.

put into that track. I love it. I think it's one of the best tracks I've ever heard. It's, it was my number one song in 2021, uh, 2022 and it probably will be for 2023 because there's in the podcast world, we talk a lot about audience capture and this idea that you want to remain dynamic. Like I know which podcast did the best and I could just go repeat, recycle, do the same thing over and over again, but I'm not growing and I'm going to lose my passion for it. So I have to go try new things. I have to interview people that might challenge my perspectives and make me grow in a way. And that's exactly what you were going

through and to face such pushback from the fans. Like, I have the sympathy for you where I'm like, they should be open to that. If NF does pick up the banjo, yes, it might not beat his other stuff, but he's on a journey. And to that point, you see the albums he's put

together. This one is very different than the first one. It's not the same thing. But he's on a journey. And if you zoom out a bit and look at it for the journey, You can see how this album fits in with his journey and the same with your journey through this, which gives you different tools, different skills that allow you to go succeed. And so to that point, I would just say the fans need to have faith that you're on this journey and that this can only bring about like a new age of NK47.

And that's what I think the message you were putting out there was. Yeah, no, that's exactly what I was putting out, man. And I, you know, like I said earlier, man, I feel like we can talk about this all day. But I guess I want to just kind of close that thought with like, I don't really expect people to follow what I'm doing blindly anymore. I think that that's a really, so where I'm looking for it. I guess like closed-minded perspective, because that's how I used to feel is like, you know, these people are used to gravitate towards my music, right?

They used to love what I was doing, so why don't they love what I'm doing now? And the reality is, it's like, it's shitty as it is to say, like, I'm a, product like I'm a business you know and if people choose not say buy my product that's not necessarily their fall right that's that's on me that's a really interesting perspective the part that I also love about that song though is that in people's life they can feel like they're being put in a circumstance uh you start to buy the house you start to invest in in the roots that kind of put you somewhere and you can start to feel stuck and you have this message in there that people are trying to keep you where you are and not let you grow

and not let you thrive, not let you become who you want to become. And I think that that message is so important for people who are kind of stuck in those circumstances. Yeah, absolutely, man. It's like, you know, I felt like the people were, you know, the people. It's like this really abstract term, man, I've never met most of these people, right? They're just numbers on a screen. But like, to the ones that I have met, like it shows and through DMs and through talks,

like those people are always extremely supportive towards what I'm doing. Um, and those are the people that, uh, that would follow me and have followed me for, for years, despite the certain changes in style or me personally, man, I used to have blue hair, bro. Like, did you know that? I did. I have that. I have a few songs from that album too. I used to have blue hair, dog. I had a fucking, uh, like these blue contacts and in, and like, that was a wild time, man. Like, um, I don't know. I guess what I'm saying is, uh, even when I did that, I, even when I did that, I, I faced a lot of a lot of flashback, too, just because it was different. You know, people didn't really gravitate towards that as much, but a lot of the real ones still stuck around through it is what I was getting at it. And I think that that's important. Like, those core people, you give a shout out to them for being committed and sticking

with you during your journey. And, like, that's the challenge of being an artist is that you're going to have to take risks. You're going to have to challenge yourself in some regard. And I do think that what we ask of artists like, yourself what we ask of artists like Juice World is too much it's not a reasonable request if you were to go into a business and ask for what we're asking for of you you would say no this is far too much because you're putting the shit you've gone through as a kid the the challenges you face the adversity you've overcome out there for everybody to listen to and that brings me to the song is that

what you wanted because it lands on exactly that point this is what we want from our artist for them to lay themselves out and be incredibly vulnerable and then we'll tune in and we'll enjoy it and it's it's such a selfish request from a listener's perspective yeah no man see that's that's another song I was thinking of when you

mentioned that because I think that was the second track on the on the project in my head and I feel like I should know this man but I feel like 2021 that was the very first track on the out right? It was that what you wanted correct you I should know that

bro. I don't know. I don't know that. Um, but yeah, that was, uh, you know, that was capturing the same feeling is that I was just really resentful towards, uh, the fans towards myself, just towards life. I was in a really horrible place. I think when I made that song, bro, I was literally, I woke up extremely fucked up, man. Like, I just, I was drinking for days beforehand. I was fucking vomiting. Like, I didn't have, it was disgusting. And, uh, um, So like a weird flashback to that day, man. That was a weird day. I woke up, bro.

I had a bunch of overcharges from Wells Fargo. I had a bunch of buy just bills that got taken out that day. I was negative like a thousand of my account. Like, it was just stressful, man. And I woke up and like my, my homie Dylan, he produces a lot of my tracks. He sent me the, uh, the beepers out what she wanted, him and Trump's made together. and I heard it and like it just fucking hit me when it came out man I was like wow I've got to write about what I'm going through and I was just so angry about about everything I was like as

that what you wanted like you want me to be like this in this state living this kind of lifestyle so I could write about it and you know sell it to you guys as a product um yeah just uh just a lot anger in that song, man, a lot of resentment. And it goes to the point that like people who are tuning in are often in the same circumstance. And we would never like the goal is always to look like you have the nicest clothes, to look like your hair is all done. And nobody really knows what's what your bank account is at and what you're going through and what your house looks like and what your bedroom looks like. Nobody knows who you really are in those dark moments. And so to put yourself out there in that way is it was humbling for me because it gave me. It gave me

me a deeper appreciation for the work that you do that musicians do that artists do because it's a huge risk and again I think the price is too high yet you voluntarily like allow yourself to pay it even though it wouldn't be a reasonable negotiation if I would ask that of a person yeah well man I don't think that is something you can ask of somebody reasonably it's like I don't know man it goes back to the the numerology thing right like uh like uh like a life path 11 and I don't know man it is it is really esoteric to even bring that up and it's really a lot of people don't believe it or don't follow it man it's like zodiac signs I don't even unable to believe in zodiac signs but for some reason numerology like that should make

sense to me yeah and it just goes back to kind of be in that guiding light and inspiring other people with with your challenges and obstacles and I think it's it's so important to put my life on the line for everyone to see, like with zero filter, right? Because the second date, I start pretending that I'm somebody I'm not. That's the second date. I guess that's the second though. Like, I stopped being me, you know, and I stop being genuine to who I am. So I'd rather tell people what I'm going through, tell people what I've been through

in a raw, unfiltered setting and have them relate to it that way, then, you know, me say that I'm rich as fucking, you know, I've got all these bitches and I don't like that word. I say that word a lot. All these women, you know what I mean? And like, that's just not true, bro. Like, this is, this is me. You know what I mean? And that's why I really enjoy your music is because I don't actually like that type of music where people are trying to sell that. That's why I actually enjoy people like Vin Jay and, and other musicians like Gone. They're not selling that. Like, Gone regularly talks about his mother working incredibly hard, multiple jobs in order for him to be able to succeed.

And then he talks about how he regrets being a goof-off and causing shenanigans rather than focusing on what he could have been and wanting to take care of his family. Like all my favorite rappers are not what normal people think rap is about. And I really appreciate your style because it doesn't focus on that. It focuses on the real things you're going through. Can we also talk about rainfall? Because I think that that's where there's a beauty in rap music. There's a beauty in what you're doing.

doing because you're talking to yourself. Can you talk a little bit about that song? I love that song, man. I, uh, that is probably, that's probably one of my favorite songs that I've ever made. And I constantly, man, people don't know what it's about. Like, I always get asked like, yo, what is that song about? What does that mean? Right.

And like, to me, it's so, it's so obvious. It's so self-evident when I'm talking about. Like, I'm just talking to myself, like, through my life, right? It's like, sunshine, rainfall, I'll be there through it all. You know, like, I'll be there for you or something like that. And, you know, when I made the song, I was like, I was in such a bad place mentally. Like, you know, what I made is that what you wanted, 2021, et cetera. They, I just wanted to apologize to myself right as a kid.

And so I was like, man, like, you had all these hopes and all these aspirations. and like, you know, this is what I made of them and I'm sorry, you know, and like, it was just such a powerful feeling for me, man, so just to apologize to your past self because you're a fuck up, right? That's a really powerful thing. And to love yourself, right? When you look back on all the decisions you made, it, what came through for me was the empathy you felt for yourself and it's such an interesting thing.

to do to look at yourself, your past self, as almost a separate person that you love and that you understand and that you have sympathy for because so easy it is to just look at it with regrets. It's hard to say, I was in hell, I was in a tough place, but I still love myself for who I was then and the decisions I was making. That's, I think, the challenge for so many people to get over that hurdle. Yeah, no, no, I think that's the, you know, point in your love. life where you have to have empathy because you're like, no, you have to take care of yourself.

Like, you're someone that needs to be taken care of, right? And it's like, I was and am someone that I need to constantly take care of and be vigilant about because I'm a fuck up, man. Like, if I'm like, I have super addictive personality flaws, like, you know, if I, uh, I just have to steer clear basically any substance because I know that like, if I take it once, then I'm going to take it twice and then three times and I limit to myself

to Starbucks bro I fuck with video games you know I mean but I can't even smoke weed I can't drink anymore I can't do any of that shit totally lost much for a thought bro we got to hop on to the song

in my head with Sarah clearly and talk about that the idea that if today was your last breath what would you do if you knew it was all done would you be proud of where you got to or would you regret it as past tense and i think these are questions that we don't ask ourselves outside of music very often we don't think about whether or not we're living up to our true potential whether or not we're making the difference we would have wanted to whether or not we're the spouse partner

friend that we could have been looking back on it it's so easy to get caught up in the day to day and that we're busy and we're booked up, it's hard to look at yourself in the mirror and ask those questions. It really is, man. And I think that I, you know, I don't think enough people ask themselves that question, right? And like, if I had asked myself right now, like, am I proud of where I've gotten? I'm proud of what I've accomplished. I would say, absolutely not.

Like, I'm not even, I'm not even close to what I think I would feel proud of. Like, have I done things that I'm proud of? Yes. but I feel like the negative outweighs, the positive in my eyes. And that really sucks to say, right? But I've done a lot of introspection, a lot of my, I don't know, man, just a lot of thoughts about my life and my past and everything that I've done. And I don't know, man, I'm not proud of where I am.

I'm not proud of who I am, but I'm working every day so that I can't be one day. You know what I mean? yeah and it's not done right like it's a journey that you're allowed to go on and say this is where i'd like to end up this is where the pinnacle will be for me personally regardless of what the numbers do and regardless of all of those other things this is the place i want to be to be to sit back and be grateful and feel like i've contributed and done what i want to do yeah not mass yeah i hope we have a follow-up podcast like five years from now you want i mean where it looks like ellen like we're on a stage i walk out everyone's yelling and you're like

like, Nate, it's been so long, man, nice to see you. You know what I mean? Like, you're a billionaire or whatever the topic. Like, I don't know, man. I, uh, I really want to be proud of myself, right? I think everyone does. But the second that I say I am proud of myself, I feel like my work's done in a weird way, you know, and like, it's nowhere close to done.

Like I am not even halfway towards, you know, my goal of who I want to be as a person, right? Yeah, I just think it's really important, you know, to always be working not only on yourself, but, you know, on your artistry, on your relationships, on your place in this world, right? And selfishly, I think we're incredibly lucky because we're on this journey with you as listeners. So listening to your music, we get to hear where you're at this time, what you're thinking, where you're reflecting on. And I think that it's incredibly enlightening to see and listen to music where we get to see where you're meant. state is at and how you're feeling about things. And I also need to, because it's one of my all-time favorite songs, regardless of rap or hip-hop, one of my all-time favorite songs, safe,

because I think it hits on a point that another one we don't talk about very often, but we want to feel secure, understood, valued, such simple ideas. I mean, these ideas are becoming commonplace that we say, but how often do we actually feel like we can be flawed, that we can be stupid that we can make mistakes and still have people around us that will support us that will empathize with us that will try and pick us back up and believe in us and in the ways that we want to be understood because we all have different love languages and ways we want to be understood some people don't want a big hug when they're going through something sometimes they just want to talk like being safe means different things and i think it's just one of your most profound

pieces of artwork man thank you i uh i love that song man like i think i've said that probably four or five times on this out of his interview so far and funny it's just true man like that is one of my favorite songs i've ever created because i wasn't a really like a broken record bad every one of these songs i'm like i was in a horrible place no but it was fucking true um you know i think Picasso said like you know the best art comes from my what is it like uh pain and suffering something like that um it i and i I think that's so true, man, because when I wrote that song, I was beginning to be sober for the first time, you know, since I discovered drugs.

Like, you know, I was trying to rebuild myself from scratch, essentially. And I remember when I went to therapy, I just did overcome a lot of shit from my childhood that, like, you always told me I needed to feel safe, right? You need to identify all five senses. you say like wiggle your toes you know like listen to what's around you smell feel where you're at and i am always in my head like always and i'm always over analyzing things i'm like thinking about what to say what not to say is this going to offend this person um and uh you know when i made that song, it was such a weight lifted off of my chest because I just wanted to feel safe.

You know, I mean, like, and to this day, it's something that I'm working on religiously. And I just think it's so important for people that have dealt with trauma or anything difficult in their life that they refine their sense of safety. Because, like, I lost that when I was, when I was a kid and I haven't got it back since. and that's subconsciously dictated all of my life choices and created who I am today. I hope that makes sense. It does. Actually, Carl Jung talks about this idea

that we spend all of our childhood wanting to be adults and then we spend all of our adulthood wishing that we could be kids again and the ultimate point you see that the most is in elderly people because they can sit in a park all day and watch the kids play and have that sense of peace because it does become a boat. the bills, it becomes about the next thing you're doing, about being busy with this project or that or being at work or doing these things, and you're not in the moment just having fun. Like, how free did you feel when you were playing tag or doing something silly and just

goofing all, like, you just don't have that same level of freedom where it isn't about a vice or doing something in order to feel productive? And I think that that's what so many people struggle with. And you also have this line in there that, like, you feel like there's people saying they're going to give you 100% and they don't. and I really resonate with that line because so many people say like how many people have reached out to me saying they're going to start a podcast and then I'm still waiting for them to get started so many people will say they'll help you out and they'll hook you up

and they'll have your bath and then they don't follow through and I think I'm going to bother Tim by bringing him up but he's a person who's believed in this from the get-go and watched me progress and improve and has supported that but he's also the person I never have to ask for anything from him because he's willing to go that extra mile. And I've seen that same thing in you where you've worked hard to make this interview great. You've put in the effort. And you weren't expecting that to be brought up. But I couldn't appreciate that more. And there are people out there willing to truly give 100%. But they're rare. They're not every day. You come across them and they're true gems because they're willing to do what it takes. They're willing to give

you their 100%. As long as you're willing to put in the other 100%. And you can make something great when you meet people like yourself and like Tim. Man, see, I love that you said that, bro, because like when I first talked to you, man, like months ago, I think like October or something. Yeah.

It was a while ago, man. And like, when you first asked me to go on the podcast, I was like, I don't know, man. I think I even called you, I mean, I think I even called you.

I wanted to just talk to you first. But when I was talking to you and I saw what kind of person you were, I was like, yo, I can tell this person is someone that is going to give it 100%, right? Like, I could tell that you love what you did and you were going to bring that same energy if we did a podcast or an interview. And I watched the interview with Vinjay. I watched the interview with Justin Clancy.

And like, both of those were just fucking awesome, man. I don't know, bro. I mean, dad, you have beautiful eyes. You give awesome virtual fist bumps and breathe in. But I mean, it's just cool, man. So, yeah, I know we're talking about my song institute, but I just wanted to put that out there, you know. I appreciate you so much. And it's just, it means so much because you articulated it.

And I may think these things and think like, wow, this person's great. But when you articulate that there are people who just, they kind of, oh, I'll help you out and then they don't show up or it's late or it's not as good. We just, I've gone through some things recently where it's really made me appreciate those people who come. through who give it their whole when there's no expectations like there's no there's no requirement that you do this yet you're willing to put in your best effort and that means the world to me and again in your latest song which we're going to get to that's coming out soon you also talk about this idea which i think is super valuable you've dropped a few songs though that we have to get to that are a little bit more heavy shooting stars is one of them and i think it is again another

master class where that singing comes out where the doubters didn't didn't see this coming because Because you tie in such a beautiful voice. I know that you're not, you maybe not see your voice the same way I see it. But I love, as I talked to with Justin Clancy, this honest, raw voice that you brought to that song. How did Shooting Stars come about? Man, so actually, I was, I was on a stroom trip, man. And I was just chilling in my fucking apartment, extremely high, man. like I was like I don't know man you have any experience with psychedelics at all

no unfortunately not oh man this not a bad thing like I yeah you know there's this fine line this we like two and a half to like three and a half grams of these rooms right and like there's a fine line between you're chilling and you're having a good time and you're kind of like I don't know how to put me you're like on the surface of the water and you can like view in for a second and see what's going on but then you can come back out when you want then there's a three and a half plus where like you're fully submerged and you can't get up you know for outfits you know what i mean and i when i was on that trip specifically i was in a weird ass middle room bro like i was like i just need to distract myself because i was not in a

good headspace at that time and when i roped shooting stars i was going through youtube beats and I found this one in particular that was a chill guitar type beat and like I just played my speaker highest fuck in my fucking apartment and I was like a prey on a shooting star and I was like bro this is it chill cup for you none I just fucking wrote like the entire track that night the majority of the track I should say and like I don't know bro the immense relief that I felt when I articulated what I was feeling in that moment was extremely powerful. Like, I just started crying. I was just like, I don't know, man.

It felt surreal. That is the only track I ever made on troughs, but like, I don't know, dude, I've got to do that again because the energy of that, which is so like, it was so raw and powerful. And like, I don't know, dude. I feel like I'm like stroking my. ego right now but no you should be very proud of it um i don't know if you listen to jordan peterson at all um but he goes through this concept of of what does it mean to to wish upon a shooting star he talks about pinocchio because that's one reference that i think most people have heard of

where you're asking something greater than yourself you're looking out up above yourself recognizing that you're small and asking for something and you have to do that honestly you have to do it with the intent of wanting to improve if it's done selfishly it doesn't work, but that's that idea of praying because often people think you need to say a certain amount of Hail Mary's or you need to do it a certain way or you've got to be on your knees or you've got to praying is meditating basically where you're reflecting on where do I want to be if I could have my life the way I want it and I have to do work in order to get it there but what do I have to do and that's that thing that I think sometimes we forget to give ourselves

is I do want to go in this direction, the shooting star direction, but how do I get there? What do I to do myself to get there. And that's what I thought was so beautiful was you were willing to take that journey. And it does involve you. It's not like, I just want a million dollars cash. That's what people think of when they think of praying at a low level. But often it's, what do I have to do to make my life the way I want it to be? And that's the journey that you're so clearly on. Right. Absolutely, man. And I think it goes back to the saying it's like the quality of your life is the quality of the questions you ask right and it's not oh it's not always about like you know like you said like i want a million dollars it's not like yo your god or whatever the

fuck you will leave then like i want a million dollars please you know what i mean i say those people are going to stay broke forever right because they're asking something beyond themselves to provide themselves with something they don't deserve but the real question you should ask is what do i need to do what kind of person do I need to become to make a million dollars right and those are the people that always succeed you know what I mean yeah yeah I do listen to Jordan Peterson by the way bro that's like I don't know man I go on those like late nights three in the morning YouTube listeners you know and that's one of the guys I usually go to I like I read a couple of this books like the 12 rules for life and the 12 models for life super insightful yeah it's crazy how much of a

difference he could make in people's lives like real difference and what he's portrayed as because he's actually coming and doing a tour here in uh in vancouver and abysford shortly here and like the the press about him is completely different than uh what he actually does for people and like i wouldn't have this podcast today if i didn't listen to jordan peterson and he was like you could be more than you are today so go on that path and figure that out like that that meant the world to me because it feels like am i am i there did i arrive and it's like you can make so much more of a difference. You have this style, though, that I love. You tie songs together, intricately, and only the real ones now. And your song, I'm Not Okay, came up in multiple other songs,

indirectly, but we all knew what was going on. Can you talk about the song, I'm not okay? Yeah, man, so like, I love, I love tying songs into other ones, because in my head, it's like I'm building a story, right, and not a fabricating. story but like I'm drawing upon parts of my life over the last 26 years and putting them into this you know basically journal of my life story and I'm not okay was a really powerful wonder at least for me because it was like I don't know man I don't even I don't even want to talk about it on the podcast because I just get emotional like I want to talk about it back I couldn't.

And when I made that song, I, you know, I was at work, actually. I used to sell gym memberships at a place called 24-hour fitness. And that one night when I was crazy, man, I was supposed to go home early because at a studio session. And I couldn't go home early. I actually had to stay and like work and I was all pissed off about it because, you know, I had a studio session, whatever. it. And I was selling this gym membership to this one guy. I'll never forget this. And

he comes in and we just came back immediately. It was fucking crazy. He played basketball for college in Portland. You know, I was walking by the basketball court and we sat down on my desk at the time. And he just looks at me like totally surreal. He looks at me dead in the eye. And he's like, I have something I need to sell you and I was like okay like bro if you like me man just tell me you know like you love and uh you know he just told me that I like he was sexually abuse as a child and he told me that I he just wrote this poem today and he had to share it with somebody and for some reason he wanted to share it with me and I it was one of the most beautiful things I have ever heard in my life man and um

When I heard it, it was like, it was life changing, man. I, uh, I just getting emotional even talking about it, man. I, uh, you know, I was just, I hugging this dude in the middle of the, uh, in the middle of the gym floor, man, and, uh, sorry, dog, um, words talking, uh, about what happened. us as kids for like an hour, man. My boss is looking over at us like, what the fuck is Nate doing? You know, we're like crying, like hugging, like everyone's looking at us. And it was the first time in my life that I talked openly about what I've been through.

And I sold on the gym membership. I got his phone number. I went back home and that's when I made, I'm not okay. Like the exact same night did all of that went down. And it was the fastest song I've ever made, like I made that song in like fucking 30 minutes. I went to the studio the next day. I recorded it. And that was the first song for the album that I made.

And I was like, fuck. Like how do I build a project around this song? And that's when basement came into play. Never talk to that dude again, by the way. I have no idea what happened to him. Maybe he was like some weird guardian angel that came into buy a gym membership. for some shit. It's got to like it as getting done or something. But it was such a powerful moment, man. It is something that I will never forget in my entire life.

You brought up Basement and all of these songs tie together so beautifully and that's such a heavy. The next few songs we're going to talk about are incredibly heavy and Basement ties in really nicely. Can you talk about how that song came about because it was another feature with con? Man, so Baseman was actually the second to last track that I made, like, when that album came out. And I, I'll be honest, man, like, that song to me didn't have a lot of emotion that's asked to it, just being totally transparent. To me, I was trying to recreate the motion or the emotion of I'm not okay, because I had to have an intro to the album that kind of, foreshadow the end of the album right and so when I made that track I was like trying to recreate

this moment that I had when I made I'm not okay and I couldn't do it like I just I couldn't do it the lyrics didn't hit the way I wanted him to the vocal performance didn't hit the way I wanted it to um so that's why I got gone on it because I knew gone would fucking kill it as he always does and then I hit him my homie alice and I knew he was going to kill it because the dude has a voice of a fucking angel, man. Do you know Atlas's music at all? Of course. A big fan.

I'm listening to Planck on repeat right now. Man, see, he's a, we're talking about Binks earlier. And he's just one of those artists, man, that has the full package. Like, he's just fucking amazing. I got so off topic. But yeah, I guess what I was saying is I was trying to recreate the emotion of I'm not okay and I you know I had to call in some backup to help make the track what I wanted this be it turned out really well you also have recently dropped fragments and I think it is a masterpiece

end to end because I think it is also a journey within itself that being said demons is probably one of the heaviest songs if you know you know and hearing that it gives me goosebumps but I have such respect and admiration for you for being able to put that in the beginning and I just can't think of anything like it man like you're just you're on a different level and it gave me chills listening to that how did that come about so I was in the studio when I made that one and it was it was such a weird moment man um because I had this instrumental in my files on my phone for like probably a six or seven months or something and I completely forgot about it and when I was in the studio I played it and I

I just started singing I was like I woke up at three in the morning I saw a team and I you know we just made the track like in like five or ten minutes so it was so simple um in the very end it was like we had to have something there and I didn't I didn't really know what to put and this is like right after I made I'm not okay like literally like maybe a month after day and I was listening to that I'm in the studio prior to me making demon and I was like yo I need to I need to touch on this more because I just made one song about what happened and I totally stopped because it's just really difficult to bring out yeah um and uh one When I made that, it was like, you know, when you're a kid and you go through something traumatic, you usually imagine that it was a monster, right, or it was a demon, because how could another human being do something like that, right?

But then, like, when you're a child, you can't really explain it to yourself, right? Like, it's just like, I don't know, you see a monster, you see a demon, right? So for me, that was what that song was about was it was like, you know, it was a demon that did all of that. Yeah, I'm like, see, I'm trying out to get emotional. Like, I did say like five minutes ago. Yeah, I think I'm just going to leave it at that. It's like, that's cool with you. Of course, man.

I, as I said, I think that these songs are incredibly insightful, and I've often been saying that when we look at horror movies, often we look at them with the wrong lens, because there's a reason that the demon follows you. When, like, you'd think of ghost demon, the demon follows you no matter what house you're in, because it's attached to you. And for so many people, the demons look different, whether it's alcohol, drug abuse. The demons may look different, but it's a assumed out version of something heavy chasing you. And the way you put it together, I don't, I just don't think anybody's ever hit it on the nose, the way that you hit it on the nose and just the most respect, the most admiration for the work you do, because I think that that's

lyrical, artistic genius at work, and I just don't think he'll ever get the praise. I know it deserves listening to it and understanding it and seeing it for what it is. So I appreciate you for that. Then you drop another killer song with Vinjay, coward. And I think a lot of the time people do feel like they're cowardly. And we all like to watch the Avengers movie and feel like we're going to be the hero, the follows through, that does what we need to do, that makes the difference. But the strongest people are often the people who realize that they actually weren't that person, that they weren't the person they wanted to be in the moment they wanted to be it. And you see that with Eminem in his early songs he's talking about how like he couldn't

stand up for himself. He couldn't fight the bully. But he could out lyric them. He could out communicate them, which is different than being able to win the fight. And I think that you hit on that song with Vin Jay in that song. What was the mindset putting that song together? Yeah, I mean, man, Coward is another one of those ones that like, I just loved creating. Like, Um, I was, uh, I was on YouTube, man, like, looking for like, I literally was like a slim shady type beat, like, just like that. And, uh, that was one of the results that popped up from this guy named Abyss. And as soon as I heard it, it reminded me of, uh, kill you by Eminem. If, do you know a song? No. It was like, dun dun da dun dunna. It's like, you don't want to fuck with shady. Great track, boy. You got to check it out. Um, but when I heard it, it was like, when I was a kid, that song gave me so much power and it was like it made me feel like I was stronger than I was you know I was bigger than I was and I was a I was a small kid right I was really timid I was like bro I was like four foot 11 chubby as fuck with a bow cut man like I like this weird tick thing

going out like he's like you know he's like you know he's like this like that I was the target of every school bully bro it was a problem and that song uh kill you by him and that really inspired meets, I stand up for myself, you know, and I just learn how to stand up for myself is the only way I can put it. So when I made coward, it was kind of the embodiment of that track in my own way, if that makes sense. It was beautiful, and you talk exactly about that, this moment where you were like, I was small and too timid, but I'll never let it happen again. And that's, that's the differentiator that some people never go through that doesn't shape them. I was bullied as a kid, and I saw my bully like five years later and I was right nose to nose to him being like you will

never make me feel I was afraid to leave my house I was ashamed and uh if like it felt like nobody could protect me the one instance was my mom and my mom's friend were right there and he was bullying me in front of them and they couldn't do a thing about it because it was verbal they weren't going to go beat on this this kid that was my age and so there was nothing they could do to stop it. And in that moment, it was like, wow, like I am, my mom's right there and there's going to be no consequences. And other places I would go, he would show up and threaten me and make me feel this small. And in that moment, I was able to reclaim that and say there will be no moment in my life where I'll ever be the person that steps aside, the person that avoids it. And

later in my life, a subway sandwich shop was being robbed. And I chased the guy down the road. and followed him, tried to get his license plate, and the police officer afterwards was like, you don't need to do that. Like, they would have only taken it. And I was like, no, for my own sanity, I will never be the person that steps aside, that lets somebody get away with something.

I will do that until the very end, because that's your integrity. You have to live with yourself. You have to go to bed. It's not about the money. It's about letting crimes happen in your community and trying to protect the world around you. And I had to go testify and look the guy

who robbed that sandwich shop in the eye, as I told them exactly what I saw him do and why I chased him in all of the the backstory. And so those moments again, I don't think they get the light when you realize who you were and who you want to be and make that commitment to yourself.

That's fucking cool. Matt, Mike. That's fucking cool, bro. Like, I was just like, I was sitting here trying to envision you chasing this guy for robbing a sandwich shop. And I was like, this is one of the coolest people I've ever met like that's

like I don't want to interview you but like grow you got to tell me this story man because you just saw this going down and you're like fuck no man not in my house yeah okay so the back the back story is my close friend

Jake he's the first person I interviewed for this podcast we used to hang out there every single day instead of doing alcohol drugs hanging with those type of people we'd sit in that sandwich shop daily drink pot and read the newspaper. We were the most boring 15-year-olds, 16-year-olds there ever were,

and we would just sit there. And so it was by myself one day sitting there, and he was pretending that he had a weapon on him and kind of doing like this with it, suggesting that he had a gun on him. And once he left, I immediately just chased after him. And he turned around. And in that moment, I was petrified

that he actually might have a gun on him because it was like, there was nothing between us. It was like looking straight at him. And he didn't. so I was fine and then I continued chasing their vehicle down the road got on the phone with 911

and yeah it's crazy that it's all documented in Canada the case is called RV Heatley and that was the person who robbed that store man I feel like

I don't know you gotta put that on your job resume you got the front of your podcast homepage like that's just fucking cool man how have we never talked

about this before I don't think I've ever talked about it on the podcast before ever so I want to call my mom I'm like oh I was your day oh it was dude I was here as mom I met this fucking hero

this is cool man that's dope thanks bad well speaking of um doing something that's really interesting your song push ended up on American dad and I could tell that that meant something

to you beyond anything else It meant something to you. How did that come about? How did that song come about? And what did it mean to get on American Dad? Dude, that was single-handedly the coolest moment in my music career. Was it planned? Was it like, do you talk to them beforehand?

Kind of, kind of nigh. It's totally random, man. So I love the show American Dad. Like, is a kid growing up like that, Dad, South Park family guy, favorite shows of all time in Narutel. But that, that's a whole different talk. um anyways man so i was in the studio uh working on some tracks and uh skyo was talking to uh brian shaft and he owns a record label out in burbank um he uh he contacted me and he was like man so uh have this sync opportunity for you're gonna love it so he called me he told me american dad needs a song

for uh for their show for the next season and i was like what do i got to do you know just tell me I got to do. And they sent me this really general outline of what kind of a song to make. And we made the song, no shit, like 20 minutes. Like, I was in the studio, or with my girlfriend, with the studio engineer. And we pulled up this beat that Dylan sent me. I know this guy named Only One. And we literally had 20 minutes, like, to make the track. Like, they gave us 30 minutes total. I had 20 minutes to write, 10 minutes to record, mix, master, whatever. We set it to the show. And like an hour later, we got the confirmation, they're like, yo, like, this is fucking amazing. We're going to use the song,

right? And it was fucking mind-blowing, man, like such a cool experience. But what sucked is we got the confirmation for the show and like Disney reached out, gave us the contracts and everything. We signed everything, got his sent off and shit. But like, we didn't get the confirmation that it was actually going to be in the show. We just got the confirmation they liked it and we're planning on using it. So I didn't know. it was going to be in the show. And so literally the day I was like the day that the episode dropped, Brian called me. I was like, yeah, they're going to use it in the episode.

And like, I don't know, bro. I don't know. It was single-handedly the coolest moment in my music career, though. Yeah. You can feel it because the way you were talking about it and the way that they kind of premiered it was really cool. But that must have been challenging to like let it go off and not know when, if, how. and have all of those and then to have it drop

and not to be able to maybe plan it out and have a plan around it it's just right in front of you a few hours later it sounds like yeah I mean I was I was on tour with an artist named Gremlin and chaotic at the time and like I was in the green room

in Seattle chilling and my mom actually set me a video club and she was like oh my gosh look like in the green room in my set or whatever and I saw it and like I just started crying man

And I was like, yo, like we met in the American Dad. And then Gremlin, which was the headliner for the sport, he comes up and he started filming me crying. He was like, I'm telling how you feel. And I was like, I mean the world of me? Whatever the fuck I said. And it was a fucking cool experience. And to be people that had to have that happen and to actually see the years of hard work that you put into your crap, like pay off just a little bit. You know what I know? Absolutely. One of those moments where you can kind of cherish it

and remember it and hold on to it. Yeah, man, it's like the, you know, the 10,000 plus hours that you put into this. Like there's a really small sliver of something palpable. You know what I mean? Like, so yeah. Like this happened. You know what I mean? Absolutely. We have to go back to your fragments album. One more drink. You have this really beautiful line about we go through these problems. We face them. We face them. We have to overcome them. Then we sing about them, wash, rinse, and repeat. It's autopilot.

And it's going back to one of those previous songs. It's this journey of having to be vulnerable all the time and figure out the, like, I don't even know how you would do that. Sit there and think about the problems you have and the challenges you're facing and then go, okay, I'm going to talk about that. And I think it's an incredibly scary idea because we always talk about, okay, if you're going to give me feedback, I want some good and I want some bad. But as an artist, you're like, okay, I'm going to take these terrible things that I've just gone through, and how am I going to talk about them?

So if you can listen to it, it's like your whole world has to revolve around the bad things going on. So you get almost like a skewed view of yourself and working with a lot of police officers. I know that that's one of their biggest challenges is they only see the worst 80% of the world. They rarely see the regular every day grabbing a cup of coffee and nothing happens. They go into the darkest things. And I compare that to you because you're going to the. the darkest parts of your mind of the things you've been through and then having to talk about them and then do it again and again and again to no end and I think that that was a beautiful

quote about what you go through man it's a really difficult you know just a difficult profession you know what I mean like because I think it gives myself a skewed perception of who I am right because it's like if you have one focal point and you just fucking view that fable point, you know, that's all you see. You know, right now I see your beautiful face, but like, if I'm making a song, it's like, I see that negative part of myself and over and over again until it's so fucking ingrained in my brain that like, I kind of lose sight of the positives of my life of who I am, you know, so I'm focusing on that the worst 80% of myself instead of the best 80% right um and uh it's a really high price to pay for being an artist but i think

it's it's so important that we have people in our society that that are willing to do that you know i couldn't agree more and again it just goes to how blessed we are that people are willing to take those steps and and share their vulnerabilities so that we can feel understood in some way that we can feel connected and in a few days i get to interview you a music expert who's going to talk about and break down how we process music, how we connect with it. What is the process? Because it can make you run when you feel like you don't have any energy left. It can make you feel like you can get up when life's knocked you down. It can help in so many different ways. It can help with dementia and so many just interesting issues.

And that's why it's always such a pleasure to sit down with people like yourself who are doing the creating, who are doing the grunt work so that we as everyday people can feel understood. But we have to switch to really positive one. I think one of the most beautiful songs, Love with Borderline, because my partner love is it, I love it, I think it is what true love looks like. Can you talk about how Love with Borderline came about? Yeah, absolutely. So when I made love with Borderline, it was, I mean, it's about Borderline personality disorder, right?

And, like, are you familiar with Borderline? Yes, but if you could describe it, for people who might not know. I am not smart enough to articulate that, man. Like, that's that to that whole fucking novel work of knowledge. But I am borderline, and it's affected my life immensely. I constantly have this instability of self. I have a very high fear of being abandoned.

I really bad mode swings, right? And because of that, I've always used substances to stabilize, my emotions or to normalize who I am, like I'll leave a conversation that I had with a stranger for five minutes and ruminate about it for the next month on how awful person I was. You know what I mean? And I, when I made that song, I was like thinking back to all the relationships that I've had over the years. And I was really just kind of thinking about how fucked up I was and how many wrong things

I've done and just totally blaming myself, right? putting that heavy burden on myself and making that song was kind of how do I put this I guess it was kind of my realization of myself that like I'm not a horrible person you know I just have a tendency to think I'm a horrible person when I'm you know doing something that's probably not okay and that song was kind of made for anyone else with borderline or you know otherwise people that can relate to in general that like they're not horrible people for doing that or for saying something rude or for gas lighting like whatever you want to say there's people you know and that's kind of love with borderline you know that's what i really appreciated is working in the courts

one of the most common charges i deal with every day is domestic violence and it's a very very very complicated topic because everybody's experience is different but it takes two to tango is the traditional thing that I see the most of. Most of my clients, it's two people involved, and it's exactly how you sort of describe in the song, which is go away, no way, come back, and people wanting you to come back is them starting

a new argument and causing different issues, and that's almost connection for some people in those dark moments, is if you can start another disagreement, rather than them leaving, at least you're still together. And all of that is unconscious, all of that is not being planned out, but it can

feel so hard to get back on the same page in so many of those moments that I think a lot of people feel like love is no issues, no disagreements, no arguments. And there's a deep, as we talk about, there's a deep shame in those disagreements of who you are, of what you are, of what you just said, and the quality of person you are in those moments can feel so heavy when you're in them and that you're attacked and for people, it's often the person that you're the closest with, they can wound you the worst. It can make you feel like you're nothing, like you never mattered. And comments like, you are no good, you'll never be any good, are just a way to destroy somebody's past and

present, and it's complicated. People are complicated, and the relationships we have are, I would say, beautifully complicated, because there's true connection in some of the most messy of times, and people are able to pick you up when you're down, and you're able to pick others up when they're down. But it's mixed in with too flawed human beings, trying to build something better than themselves together. And I think that that's the message I took away from that song. Yeah. No, you fucking, you articulated it better than I did and I made the song.

It was really just talking about what love really is, you know. And I took it from the perspective of someone with borderline, but really I think it's applicable to anybody that is in a relationship because love is, you know, it's not only the good times. It's like the good and the bad. And I think it was actually Jordan Peterson that I learned this from since we're talking about him earlier. In order to have a successful relationship, there's like a ratio of good to bad experiences

you need to have. I think the ratio was specifically like five to one, like five positive interactions to five or to one negative interaction in order to have a happy relationship because any more and it's going to fail because it's too positive. It's too fake. any less, you know, it's going to fail because it's fucking you're horrible to be around.

Exactly. Yeah. No, I think that it's just loving yourself and your partner through the difficult times is what it's about. Exactly. And you worded that perfectly as well with the song where you talk about I don't want this fake shit.

I want to be loved when I'm depressed and I'm anxious. I want to be understood. And that goes back to the song Safe, which is this underlying theme of like, we just want to be understood. We just want to be able to come home. to somebody who wants to see us. We just want them to want to go the extra mile,

not to ask, because it can get into this, like, oh, if you agree to do this for me, then I agree to do that for you, and then you have this quid, it's not that. It's, are they willing to go the extra mile when you're down and out, and you won't ask for anything, when you aren't willing to say anything?

When you, I'm fine, I have nothing to say, I'll be okay. Are they willing to come through in those moments and not just leave you to your own devices? That's the real love that I think we're talking about. But you have a new song. It's coming soon. you have to tell us about it.

Man, I love this one we're going to talk about. Cool, bro. We talked about a lot of really sad songs over this last hour and stuff we've been talking. Like, I think I cried like twice or something. Like, I'm fucking hyped for this one, man. Like, this is a, so fucking excited, man. So, uh, no one can stop me. That's the record you're referring to, right?

I am referring to it. My man, yo. So no one can stop me. It's dropping 420. And like that's with another artist named Durant, like I, I think earlier I mentioned there's a bunch of artists that I like collaborating with because I look up to them. And Durant's one of those people. Like every time that I hear that guy make a song, every time I hear a rap, I'm just like, yo, like, how do I get to that level? You know, how do I formulate a verse the same way that he formulates his verses? And I, when I reached out to him and he said he was going to do the record, I was fucking stoked, man. And on top of that, he got me his verse back, like, the next day. Like, that dude writes bastard than anyone.

Like, his verse is two minutes long, bro. It's not a short verse. And he wrote that, like, in one day on top of having a family, on top of having kids. Like, bro, I'd take a week to two weeks to write a verse. Like, I'm sitting in my car for hours, like, ruminating on the perfect way to articulate it. And this dude comes out of nowhere and just. I don't know, dude. It's fucking cool.

Like, it's inspirational. And no one can stop me. It's like, that's what the whole track's about, man. It's about, you know, creating a version of yourself that nothing can stop, right? Like, you're impenetrable. You know, it's meant to create the feeling that you can overcome anything. And I'm just really fucking excited to release it to everyone. But you're living in it.

Like, that's the crazy. thing. It's not just that you're rapping about this concept. You're living out this idea. And that's how your verse starts. Yeah, well, I mean, that's what it's about, man. And he's like, you know, for years, I've tried creating this version of myself. And I've tried building and I'm like, you know, okay, I stop drugs. Now I'm going to the gym. Okay, I'm going to the gym. Like, now I'm reading. Now I'm reading. Now I'm X, Y, and Z trying to build the version of myself that I weren't, and I'm nowhere close to where I want to be. But creating that song, like, no one can stop me is like my mindset through all of it, right? Because no matter how many times I fall,

no matter how many steps backward I take, I'm always going to do my best to come out of it as a stronger person, right? And that's the whole purpose of the song. You shared it with me privately. Are we allowed to talk about a few verses, a few lines from it? Yeah, absolutely, right. Okay. So, we've got to start with this you looking in the mirror and saying, why are you holding me back? I love that. I love the idea of that because it's, I think it's true. I think so many people just look in the mirror and go, you're not enough. You're not who you should be. You're ugly. You're not what are you going to go do with your life? I think for the most part, there's nothing in our system that's holding anybody back from doing what they want to do in life. I think for the

most part, it's you in the mirror looking at yourself saying you can't do it. Yeah, I mean, it's literally like when I was writing that first, bro, like, that was literally what I was doing in the morning before. It was like, why are you old and you back? Like, you and I, you know, we've been together for 26 years now, right? And we've been through so much together. And like, I'm nowhere near where I want to be. And it's your fucking fault, right? Like, that's self-accountability.

And I, you know, I think the next line is like something about being fragile. Like, I didn't know it was glass. like my self-image, my self-worth. And I love that line because it's like, I don't know, man, like your ego, yourself, your self-worth, like it's so fragile. And then people don't understand that. Then they build it up to this like impenetrable thing. But really, man, it's fucking, it's a pain of glass.

Like if you smash it on the side of the road, it's done. It's in a million pieces. And then you have to rebuild it from scratch, right? The other line that I think is so important because you can say, No one can stop me and people can go, oh, well, you know, I've got this going on and I've got that going on. And, you know, there's this bill coming up and I don't know. And you can feel like, oh, there is things stopping me. But you have this perfect line in there where, like, if you're going to go climb that mountain, there are going to be storms.

There's going to be stuff in your way. But that's the mindset you have to have is that nothing's going to stop you. Despite the bad days, despite the people who want to stand in your way, despite the doubters, despite the costs, despite the bills, you're going to go make it happen no one is stopping you yeah no that's exactly it man is like there are going to be storms and you are going to suffer but like that's arguably the best part of the journey because if you're not suffering you're you're not going to be able to fully enjoy the the benefits that you replayed or down the road and uh you know i don't know a single high quality person that is not been through difficult times in their life like not a single

one. I couldn't agree more. The most perhaps important line is everyone who has two sides of them, you decide who you want to be. And I think that that calls people to action to choose who they want to be. It's in your hands. It's not dice being rolled. It's not cards you're dealt.

It's who you want to be. Absolutely. I hate when people say, like, they're a, what do they say, man? like they're a product of circumstance like i think that's true to a degree but like i also think that no matter what cards you're dealt like you can you can grow from that and capitalize on whatever situation you have and you know you can grow from it it's like everybody has two sides to arm you decide who you want to feed it's like there's two wolves right and one wolf is the pad side of you the one that wants to run away from everything the one that wants to do drugs

It's the one that wants to, you know, basically fuck up. And the other side is usually smaller, arguably, is us saying that we shouldn't do that. You know, maybe we should try and grow from this. Maybe we should go to the gym, eat healthy, whatever. And it's like, whichever one that you constantly pay attention to and give feedback to, like, that's the one that's going to grow. And I just think, I don't know, man. I don't want to be, I don't want to be who I was five years ago.

And I never want to go back to that place. So I need to keep feeding this, this annoying fuck. This is going to keep telling me to do stuff I don't want to do. You know what I mean? Absolutely. No one can stall me dropping April 25th. I'm so excited. It is such a banger.

I'm so grateful that you were willing to do this today. It's been such a pleasure to build a friendship with you, to get to know you, and to see how real and honest you are. I don't think that there's a more real person when it comes to being willing to experience the stuff you've gone through and be willing to talk about it. I think you're an incredibly brave, courageous individual, and it's just been such a pleasure to spend this time with you today. Man, likewise, bro. It was amazing talking to you, man. I'm still looking forward to playing tennis with you whenever I make it up to Canada or you come down to Portland or whatever. Man, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. It has been a true pleasure. I think

we've covered so many different issues. I think you're an incredibly insightful individual and I think we're really lucky that you're willing to share your voice the way you do and again we could never ask you to do it but I've been personally inspired by you I've run longer I've gone farther I've push harder because of the inspiration in your music it's gotten me through the dark times through the good times and I'm just I'm so grateful to be able to flick on your music and be able to talk to you it's just it's such a surreal experience it's like a hugged you right now you feel like a virtual like a virtual hug there you go

camera I'm so awkward man I'm like I'm like I'm so awkward man I'm like I this is just how I am a real life too like someone will say something I'll say something they'll look at each other and then I'll kind of like go like this

and then no like this something do you have any do you have any other things that you're dropping soon that you want to let people know well not yeah bro but we got us crazy strike. Something cooking

it sounds like. Can you tell people how they can follow you online? Absolutely. So my name is NK-47. You can basically look that up anywhere. There is not another motherfucker alive on Day 47. So just Google that and you're going to find me. And when you see this lovable face,

that's who I am. Couldn't agree more. Go check him out. I'm such a big fan. It's so crazy to be able to sit down with you. Um, I'm just so grateful. Thank you again for doing this. Thanks for you having me, bro. You like another fist bump before we go. Fis pump.

Oh, man. So we didn't really figure out where these handles come from. But we'll keep searching. True. I like the 4 plus 7 equals 11. That was pretty intricate. That was. More complicated than I think my brain was ready for.

I was trying to figure out the math behind the scenes. really enjoyed that interview. Well done. Oh, I just asking the tough questions. Those are always the hardest, like the most vulnerable. And again, I think the songs speak for themselves. So it's tough to bring them up. But what a brave person to be able to talk about the things that he went through and open that door of conversation for others.

Because it's certainly a topic everybody knows is real, but certainly not one that we talk about openly. I had this image out of your story in the subway restaurant. And then he was talking about his favorite animated shows. So I have this picture of like a two-minute animated short of the subway scene in the style of American Dad or one of those. And Seth McFarland doing your voice as you run after the culprit. I think I could look pretty good animated.

Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you again, everybody, for tuning in. I hope that this opens a lot of opportunities for deeper conversations about complex topics. As always, rated on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and subscribe to the newsletter. And go check out our new website, www.bigger than me podcast. I don't know how to get the dot com. Haven't figured that out yet. one day.

Awesome. Yes, you have to have an aspiration of where you want to get to so that dot call up can be that. That beast, that unattainable. Exactly.