Nuanced. - 11. Leonard Wiens: Community Leader & Manager of the Royal Hotel Chilliwack

Episode Date: September 9, 2020

Leonard Wiens is the Manager of the Royal Hotel Chilliwack, a father, husband and role model for the community he serves. The Royal Hotel Chilliwack was built in 1908 and has served guests for 110 years. This local gem holds the history of individuals who helped build the community of Chilliwack. Leonard Wiens takes being a steward for this heritage site seriously. In this podcast we discuss the different ways he tries to keep this heritage site relevant to the community.In the second half of the podcast we discuss his role as a father, husband and family man. We discuss the complex decisions an individual must make when getting married, having children and choosing a career. Infused in this part of the discussion is the way religious values helps guide these complex issues.Send us a textSupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Hello, friends, and thank you for tuning into the show. Before we start, I want to give a few brief updates. First, we will be having Jason Lum, the city councillor for the city of Chiluac, coming on the podcast very soon. Other guests include Chanel Prasad, the owner of Alpine Legal Services, Bill Turnbull, the owner of the town butcher in Chiluac, BC, and Angela Murphy, an author of Speak Up Wonderpop, and Breathe Up Wonderpup, who is also a school psychologist. Now, my guest today is the manager of the Royal Hotel in Chiluac, BC. It was built in 1908 and has served guests for over 110 years. We talk about stories of the hotel, being a leader, family, responsibility, community, and values. Without further ado, please give it up for my guest, Leonard Weans.

And we're live. Leonard Weans, it's a pleasure to have you here. Would you be able to start with a brief introduction of yourself? Thanks, Aaron. Hmm. Well, what does one say about themselves? You know, actually, a Chilwaite born and bred. I grew up here, grew up in graduated from Sardis.

And all my kids have grown up and graduated from Sardis secondary as well, the same as I did. Spent some years away from here and university away from me. here, Winnipeg and landed up in Alberta and came back, oh, I think about 1980, back to the area and been here ever since, raised our kids, our grandkids are here. What's your favorite place about here then? Oh, man, that's a tough question, because it's a beautiful place. It really is. It's one of the nicest places. I mean, you know, where can you get a better place than where you're sitting

and looking out over, up at Mountiam, you know? Absolutely. And Mountiam, I mean, you know, sitting up at that ledge just when, people walk up to there and they come and look over the embankment, they go, oh, oh, that's got to be a great place. Absolutely. I just had my friend tell me a story of going up there in the snow and just the shock and the awe of going up to the top. Yeah.

Yeah. I've never been. So I'll have to go. Oh, Aaron, you've got to do that. It's got to be one of the neatest things. You know, the other place that I really enjoy, and I was just out there this morning, and that's up on Vetter Mountain and I was, you know, running trails. But there's some gorgeous places up along the mountain sides and the hillsides. Those are some of my favorite places.

Awesome. Well, you are the manager of the Royal Hotel currently, and I'm hoping that we can start there just to give people an idea of how important that location is to Chilliwack. Well, what can you say about a place that's 110 years old and has been there for that long, right? Right. And it's got this incredible story about it, right? Because the Barry family, they weren't the first owners, but they bought it, whatever, in 1920 until they sold it to its current owner, Alex Marks, in 95.

That family owned it for 70, you know, 70, 75 years. That's an incredible story when you think about one family that's owned the business for that many years. And, of course, there's all the legacies of stories that come from, especially Mr. Buckberry, the last owner of it. Let's get right into that. Oh, well, there's incredible ones. You know, like apparently you couldn't walk into the restaurant with your hat on. And if you did, he'd come and put a hat stand beside you. And if you didn't get it after a little while, he'd come and make sure that you did get it and take your hat off.

know, so it's not a place where you wore it, where your hat. So there's all kinds of those kinds of stories, right? Yeah, we can't imagine that now. If somebody took your hat off your head for you, we would be outraged in calling different societies to get protection. That's right. That's right. So it has all of those kinds of unique stories there. My brother at one point was as much more recently, well, certainly Mr. Berry was still owning it. And it was one of those snowstorms that, you know, you had to get in the wintertime. And he was hauling milk and he couldn't get through from Chilliwack back to Abbottesford. And he landed up at the Royal Hotel and Mr. Berry just looked at it and said, well,

you're not paying for anything here. And he just stayed the night. The next day, he moved on his way and Mr. Barry just looked after him. Wow. So, you know, those are the unique kind of stories that are there over the years and there's all kinds of other ones. Yeah, there was one of a horse, right? Oh, yeah.

Well, apparently the fellow and he used to haul, he used to use his mule. packs and horses and whatever, and he hauled up to the Red Mountain Mine, which is just across the border up the Chowac River Valley, right? But apparently he, yeah, one day decided he brought his horse into the hotel and was going to bring it up the second floor. And apparently that's where he took it. Unfortunately, the picture didn't turn out with him with a horse up the stairs, but yeah. That's wild.

Do you know an interesting thing about it? There's a young lady that works for us at the hotel today. Jessica Henderson, she's his great granddaughter. No way. Yeah. Wow, that's full circle. Yeah, it is, isn't it? That's got to be so much fun to work at a place that was built in 1908, right?

At 1908, yeah, official opening, I think, was 1909, but 1908 is when it was built. Yeah. And, you know, that's the interesting thing about it as well. I mean, you, you know, somebody came along and said, well, you know, where would I find the breaker to turn this off? Well, you've got to go wandering all over the hotel and even just find electrical breakers, because, of course, they were, they were, they were, set up at all different times over the years, right? Right. A breaker was added here.

You may remember that from when you were working there. Well, okay, where do I shut this off or how do I turn this one back on, right? So there's all the unique kinds of little things there. That is a wild part about it because the hotel wasn't really like a full hotel the way it is today. It had to be built in a different way, right, to be able to hold. How many does it hold now? Well, at this point, we've been selling 28 guest rooms. Yeah.

Yeah. And so how did you have to redesign it in order to be able to hold all the... Well, we haven't done that much now because that's the way it was. But, you know, interestingly, there's all kinds of drawings there of all kinds of different visions of ideas of revamping at a time. And some of them happened and some of them didn't. So there's, you know, there's plans from ones that were submitted and changes made to other plans which were, you know, just somebody's idea and that were never used. And it's intriguing to see that sort of stuff. Some of those aren't mounted, but they really should be mounted.

We've got them. We've kind of preserved them to make sure that because, you know, where do you find that at another hotel, right? Right. Yeah, because other places they obviously just redesign, but to have such a historic site where people are trying to build and build the story into it. Can you tell us a bit about the hotel? Well, other than that it was started back then in 1908, 1909, and I guess just those few owners. The other part is, well, and that's a significant part of the story is in about 1950s, when Mr. Berry purchased what was the Royal Bank that was on the corner, right, which is today

the Wellington Local House or the pub and the function space of 64 behind it. And it was actually two buildings, right? There was a walkway or a space between the two buildings, and then he had joined it, the two buildings together. In fact, if you use the cafe or the pub bathrooms, that's where, that's the part that was not a building at one time and they joined it together. And then now the guest rooms are above above the bank. I guess those were, I think there were management rooms of some kind or might have even been accommodation up there, but it's all been redesigned up there. And so you've got,

you know, guest rooms where the bank was at one point, you know, above the bank there. So that was the 1950s. And then of course, there's been all kinds of things, you know, like the Chinese food. In fact, I think it's Canton Gardens. The history of Canton Gardens is the people that were involved in that. We're very successfully operating the restaurant at the Royal Hotel for a period of time as a Chinese food restaurant. And then out grew it and ended up doing their own thing. That's right. So, you know, great success story, right?

This wasn't the place for them anymore. They moved on. And, I mean, they're still in the community. It's gone through some, you know, ownership changes and stuff like that. But that's its history, I think, as far as I know. Wow. Can we talk about some of the rooms there? because that's something that's so unique about the Royal Hotel is you're going in

and having a unique experience with such an antique place. Yeah, there's all kinds of different rooms there. They range from what we call our, we've actually, we call them comfort rooms or a commoner room is what we're selling it on the Airbnb at this point as a commoner room. And those are 150 square feet. They're European-sized, right? The kind of room you get at Europe with a queen-sized bed. And they're that.

And that, and there's a number of those. And then, of course, you get into the, the, the, what we call more the antique rooms that are, you know, they've got the wood floors and it's all, it's for, they're for wood floors, but they're hard as any hardwood. And they're beautiful floors. They've been fixed. And of course, since 95, when Alex bought the place, so the current owner bought it, he's fixed up and redid all of those rooms so that they're changed. Because there wouldn't, there used to just be the bathrooms down the hall, right? common bathrooms. And so that's all been redone. So today you've got on the top floor, you've got the Royal Suite, which is about 450 square feet. It's got the hot tub in there

in the one side and the King Bed. It's our honeymoon suite or the Royal Suite. Yeah. And so we've got that beautiful suite and you've got the little balcony. You can sing to your spouse down, your partner down below or from down up above or whatever, however you want to do it. And then there's also, you know, a couple of other junior suites or whatever, two room suites. And And some of the rooms, of course, have, well, let's put it this way. Like I said, the bathrooms were just down at the end of the hallway, right? And so that doesn't work very well today. So when they were creating the rooms, some of the rooms have the bathtub right in the room.

Obviously, it's for a couple. It's going to be one or two person kind of thing. It's just one bed in the room. But you've got the tub right in the room. And so it was interesting a few years ago as a hotel convention. And, you know, a person that I worked with over the years was from, I forget which chain it was, but he came and he says, well, Len, you know, why don't you just join our chain? You know, he could become part of our chain. And I said, well, you know, David, let me ask you a question. I've got this guest room. It's both this side. It's got one queen bed in it. But the tub is right in the room. Would that fit within your chain? No, I guess it wouldn't, he says. So what do you do? You keep operating independently. But it's really unique kind of thing. And it's, it's been very, you know, the design to make them suit for today has been, has been creatively done. And so it makes for some really, really unique

rooms. And then there's the, the four rooms that are over the, you know, what was the bank at one point. We've called them our bank wing rooms. And they're more contemporary, modern kind of room. But the one on the corner, just over the corner, you know, on the corner of Maine and Wellington, where the entrance into the pub is down below. It's a beautiful room. It's got the corner windows in it and everything. It's a very grand kind of feeling room, and lots of people just love it. And it's great for watching the Christmas parade in as well at this point. I can't imagine how nice that would be because the parade goes right down names of our Wellington, right?

Yeah. And so you get that experience. And there's so many different types of rooms in there. That's got to be so unique because you did start back at the comfort in earlier in your career. Yeah. And you moved over to this. What was that transition like? Oh, you know, for me personally, well, first of all, I should just say that working with that comfort and the chain the journey's end company, which became Westmont, that's where I learned my working in the industry to be able to do the job.

And I would have never been able to run the Royal and have it become the gem that it's been in the last few years in the community if it hadn't been for that experience. So I value that experience. But basically, those rooms were designed to be efficient, okay? so that a housekeeper could walk in and you could tell them exactly what the pattern is to do things in the room, right? And basically you had two rooms. One room had two beds. One room had one bed. And those were the two styles that you had, and that was it.

Well, you come over to the royal, and first of all, it was nice to have head office wherever I was instead of in Toronto or whatever. But beyond that, so that was a personal kind of thing that was really neat to have. But, you know, for housekeeping people, as an example, you had to say, no, no, in this room, you do it this way because this room is different. And all these things are here. And so you make an adjustment. And so, you know, it was an interesting learning experience or learning part of that point. But it was a really neat thing and a fun and a challenging kind of thing just to make something produced that just hadn't been doing very well at that point. Yeah, that's so wild because now you're selling the history, you're selling the experience, you're selling the story, you're not just selling a bed one night, like breakfast in the morning.

Yeah, you know, I can just a little story about that, to add to that, and you're right, that's what it is. There are these little stories that come along. There was a lady that stayed in one of our rooms at one point, and she was here because they were following up on some building project that somebody from locally had. sent them to, I think, in the U.S. at that time. Anyway, and she was just intrigued by the history and, of course, the question, and we talked a bit about that before. You know, is the place haunted or not and all those kinds of things? And of course, she, so she, and she was intrigued and interested in that kind of stuff.

And so she asked, and we said, well, basically, you know, it's not something we go around talking a lot about. Is it or not? I don't know. Whatever. And then she said, but I get these orbs. You can take pictures with your cell phone typically, right? And lots of orbs show up.

And she said, oh, right beside, guess which room it was? There's a room zero in the hotel. Now, you tell me another hotel that's got a room zero on the door. But that was, apparently it was at the elderly Mr. Berry's room at one point. And my understanding is that those, he spent his last. days in that room. So, but she says, whenever I go by room zero, there's more orbs on my, I can get more pictures of orbs in my camera than I can anywhere else.

And so I don't know what to make of that. All I know is, it's, it's part of the history and it's part of the intrigue of the place altogether, right? Absolutely. Do you have any other stories about the hauntings and of those stories? Because there are weird aspects of the hotel, like if you go into what they call the homestead room. There's a way of getting underneath the floor. Well, at some point, obviously, or at some point, the homestead room was the pub or the bar, right,

or the beer parlor, I guess is what the right term would have been. As well, it's been a barbershop. It's been all kinds of things. But anyway, you're right. There is a trap door in the floor there. And if you open that up, if you go down there, there's a nice big cellar down there. And then there's, you can see the remains of the the stairs that went out underneath the, what's the back of the building today, but it would have been behind the building, the stairs would have come out. And I guess it was a place for rolling beer kegs down and to make sure they stayed nice and cool down in the, in the cellar. What else was all part of that? Who knows? I don't really know. Yeah. Do you have any other

stories to share with us of other experiences? Because I do remember a few others of waitresses working late at night in the cafe side of things. Well, it was interesting. You know, the one fellow that worked you might remember him that worked at that time as a night person and I asked him one time so do you ever hear anything unusual at night? No, he says

there's nothing anywhere to worry about and then you may remember there was one housekeeper who said one day she was upstairs and she said well who was that and she couldn't hear she didn't know who it was so she came downstairs and she says somebody told me to come downstairs

and we said but there There was nobody up there that told you anything to come downstairs. And she says, yeah, somebody said, I was supposed to come downstairs. And so she came downstairs. I don't know. I don't know what she heard or not. She says she heard a voice telling her to come downstairs. So I guess she did.

Yeah. I don't know whose voice it was. There was nobody else up there that we know of. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely remember from my experience, just that feeling of discomfort when you're the only person in a hotel and you're sitting there at the desk and there isn't a resident in and it was still my responsibility to go check the hotel, make sure that because we did have vulnerable sides of the hotel doors that were hard to keep locked. And we did have some trespassers

at some point. But walking through a hotel that is 108 years old when I was working there was wild. And there were a few experiences I had. I'm not going to call them ghostly. But where I did hear, I thought it was Graydon working in the cafe. And then there was no one there in the kitchen. And I just went back there. I thought I heard some clinking and some moving around. And so I just unlocked the door, went to check, and there was nothing there. And what else can you say? And then can we talk a little bit about the other room where you host weddings in? Because that one is by far the most creepy room to me, room zero is pretty creepy, but the area where you can sit down and there's a bar in the back, I forget what it's called. We call the 64 function space

or meeting room. Right. Yeah. Do you have any stories or any experiences there? I can't think of any that, I don't know, maybe, no, I can't speak to anything there from, but unusual stuff. It's got that interesting painting of the nine pints of the law sitting up on the back, back of the stage, right? Right. All these English boppies with their pints. Yeah. I can't think of any, any story from. Okay, well, let's move on.

A little bit to just the essence of the hotel because there are parts of it that are so unique and so old because at one point in time, there used to be a male entrance and a female entrance, correct? Oh, yeah. So you still have, if you come in that function space of 64, hanging at the one rear corner there, and that's actually where the men's bathroom is. And it says men's entrance above there in that iconic neon sign. And, yeah, it's rather unique to see that sign there. And, of course, that was the thing at that time, where you had, you know, men's entrance. Men were okay to be in there on their own. And then the other entrance was for ladies and escorts.

And unfortunately, the ladies and escorts sign is gone. But that was part of the era of the liquor laws. in the province and what was perceived as appropriate behavior for men and for women. Yeah. And then, of course, you have the interesting story of Mr. Barry deciding that he needed to be able to serve his patrons beer just a little faster because the liquor laws were such that I think he could only serve one glass at a time or something like that per person. And he felt he wasn't getting back and forth to his clients fast enough. So he put the servers on the on roller skates. And so they were in here they were down in the bar back and forth between the bar and tables on roller skates just so they could get there a little faster. He was just trying to make a point.

But that was the kind of character he was, I guess, to make a point. Apparently the rules changed within a short time so that he could serve more than one glass at one time. Wow. That is, those are such a unique story. Yeah, the picture is still hanging in the in the old pub there in the Wellington local house, the picture of the two guys. And I think the gentlemen have passed on, but they were long-time servers at the hotel for many, many years and just carried that legacy with them, I guess. Yeah. So what does it like to work there?

What is it like to be able to share that with somebody who comes in for the first time? Well, that's kind of fun. I think what's even, I've enjoyed doing that. And I guess actually, Laura, who worked at the hotel basically was a resident historian. and she's the one that really is the one that would tell the best stories and whether we do that. I think one of the more unique things, though, is the number of people that would come into the hotel and say, well, I worked here when, and then they would tell you the story, you know, and just sort of hearing those stories, and it was the, we tried to collect some of them,

and some of them have been collected, but it's really difficult because most of them are impromptu like that, right? And so somebody comes in, and the one day, and I'd got a picture of that, there was, there were three elderly ladies that came in at that one point, and they came in, they said, well, we worked here when, and then it was when the lightning struck the top of the hotel. And there was a fire in the hotel because of a lightning strike. And basically, there were two housekeepers, and the other one was the daughter of one of the elderly ladies that was there. and they were the two they were two housekeepers. They were housekeepers working in the hotel. And one of them was working right up in there where the lightning strike hit. And, you know, just heard the kaboom and whatnot all and came down.

And I guess the fire was burning. And they had to, you know, look after the fire for, I guess, fire department came, whatever it was. But there was a fire because of a lightning strike at the hotel. Wow. And so hearing those kinds of stories, that's really unique. You know, how do you, how often do you find someone? somebody that comes in and says, yeah, I was working here when the lightning strike. Yeah, and you didn't even know there was a lightning strike.

Well, I guess there was a picture on the wall someplace that showed that. But, you know, I didn't know who had been working there at the time. How would you know that, right? Yeah, exactly. And so you work there and you're the manager. And I think it's so awesome to have you on because you bring something to the hotel as well. The hotel has a plethora of stories, but you've also done things to make that hotel kind of come to life again.

And so I'm hoping we can start off with just talking about the piano and what you brought in. Oh, well, that was a neat. That was a fun, a fun thing. And it's kind of run its course at this point. But it was a really unique thing. And, you know, a lot of cities have that. You know, we've got the outside piano, downtown piano, or whatever, and whatever. And I just at one point, I thought, you know, really, we need one downtown here as well.

And so it was, so I thought, well, okay, how does. do I do that? And so, you know, it wasn't something you want to go and spend a whole bunch of money on necessarily, but it's a very unique contribution. And so it was, it was just so interesting. And it was a real example of the community kind of supporting something that everybody sort of said, well, this is wonderful. So I, first of all, I wanted to find a particular kind of piano. I wanted a small one. So it was easily movable because I knew we'd have to bring it in at night or something like that, you know, what if to do that? And so I I kept looking around in Craigslist or whatever it was.

And of course, pianos are, many people want to get rid of their pianos, right? Because they're heavy and they're downsizing or whatever it was. So finally, I found one that was exactly what I was looking for. And I found it in Langley. And so I went with my vehicle to pick it up. And the lady, I think she was asking, I don't know, 50 bucks or something like that, because you just wanted to get rid of it because they were downsizing and moving out. And so I told her what we were going to use it for.

And I said, are you firm with the price? And she says, nah, sounds like a good idea. Just take the piano. So I took the piano and smiled and thanked her very much for it. And we took the piano. And then I wanted to be able to roll it back and forth. And of course, piano casters don't work very good on their own. And so we needed to put it on a frame.

And so a friend of mine that I do had built a frame for a couple of other pianos, one in a church or I don't know where it was all. But he built a metal frame for it. So I went to him and I said, Walt, I need a frame for a piano. And he looks at me and he says, what do you want for it? And so I told him what it was. And he smiled and he says, sure, I'll build that for you. And then he needed casters for that.

And so he said, well, he says, I said, well, you know, where do you think we should get him from? Well, he says, I'll go ask Fortens. And so he went to Fortons. And there's a good local community supporter, right? And he went to Fortins and I don't know who exactly talked to whether it was, you know, Fred, or not Fred, forget his name. Anyway, who he talked to there, and they looked at him and they smiled and they said,

sure, which casters did you want? And then he needed some steel to build this thing, you know, because it was a steel and he went to his steel supplier and actually that was an atmosphere and he said to them, he says, look, here's what I'm doing. And they smiled at him and they said, sure, just what do you need? Take it. And that's the way it went.

It went from one to the other like that. And so in the end, the costs were minimal. And then I went, and then I, I, I, I knew that if we were going to put it out on the sidewalk, I needed to get in touch with the city, right? And so I got in touch with somebody at the city. And they said, well, what are you planning to do? How do you want to do it? And I said, so here's where we wanted to put it, because just at the end of Mill Street across on Wellington.

And I said, that's where I think we should put it, you know, and we'd need to chain. And they said, yeah, you'd need to chain it there. and I went to the insurance company as well. But the city basically said, sure, what do you need there to make it happen? And that's the way it went from one to the other. And it was just a really neat thing. And there were lots of people that came out and played, you know, for the first while, when we were able to, the first year or two, and especially in the summertime,

it was just really neat to have it out there. Oh, and then that was the other thing. We wanted some paint because we wanted to paint. It wanted to look a little different than an ordinary piano. And so I took it over to Cyrus Center. I said to the kids, you know, or asked them there, would you guys be interested in painting it? And so they, they said, well, if you get us the paint. And so I think it was Fortens or somebody else gave us the paint and said, sure, here's the paint.

You can do that. And so they put all their hands all over it, you know, handprints on it, if you remember that. Yes. And we called it hands on the piano is what the piano was. So it was just such a neat community thing to, you know, get everybody involved with it. It was fun. What? You started it.

Yeah, it was fun. Well, and it brought the community together. And they had the opportunity to play it. And then there was one person who was playing it regularly, right? Yeah. In the end, after a year or two, then, you know, it kind of, I don't know if it ran its course or whatever it is, but we were just treating it a little differently. But Thor, I think that's his first name. And he enjoyed playing it.

And he would come at special times of the year and he'd dress up from Santa to Phantom of the Opera or whatever it was depending on the season. And you do all kinds of stuff with it. And he'd play out lots of lots out there. And at one point, we just realized that, you know, we weren't going to be looking after it any longer. And he'd always enjoyed playing the piano so much. And so at one point, he, he, we said, you know what, we don't want the piano here any longer.

We're not going to do this anymore. And so basically, I offered it to him. And he just smiled delightedly and said, that would be great. And so he's still got it. I'm not sure where it's playing today. He plays it in various places. And there had to be some repair work. It's hard on the piano being outside, you know, after a while.

It doesn't last that long, right? But he'd actually done some repair work. He replaced a few pieces on it and stuff like that to keep it playing. And so it's still, I don't know where it's at today, but it's carried on its journey, I think. Yeah, that's so cool because you're the person who keeps bringing life back to that hotel in different ways. And throughout my time there, you made many changes to bring vibrancy and bring, modern edge to such a historic place. What has that been like putting up different signs, changing rooms around?

Sometimes people don't like it, but I don't know. You know, we looked at it and said, you know, we've got to do something to make it to make it work and to make it contribute, right? And contribute to the community because I think that's what it did. And I think that's where even people like yourself and other employees that are there that have really been part of it to just do their part to contribute to it as well. You know, you think of somebody like Laura who's, you know, with Heritage Chilliwack and, you know, her knowledge of the history. It's an interesting story when I hired her. I don't know if you knew that.

But she was one of the first people that I hired while I was there when I arrived there. And I got her application because I was looking for some people. And on her application, it said that she had written a paper for a particular history. heritage class or something that she was taking an online course of some kind out of Victoria and she had used the Royal Hotel as her what do you call it? Her scenario that she was

describing for this class. And I thought what idiot I'd be if I didn't hire her? And of course it proved true, right? She's been an incredible contributor as you and others have been as well when you were there. But that's sort of the neat things of being able to rearrange it and to make it

so it's good for everybody. And you've got to obviously meet some standards is the right word, but expectations of what guests expect today, right? And that's been one of the challenges, I guess just coming to the COVID kind of thing, but that's one of the challenges that's been there because the way you've got to, you know, make sure that you disinfect today and do that kind of stuff to protect guests and employees working there. And so it's changed things again, you know, to make sure that you do the job well so people are protected.

Yeah. How have you been handling? COVID. What is I, it's 110 years old now. How has that been this transition over because you, the hotel has been there forever and it's never faced a pandemic like this. What has that been like? It's been tough. Yeah, it's been tough. You know, it's a small hotel, you know, 20 guest rooms. And so the, your overhead costs, of course, are, especially with a full time front desk staff is, is, is a, is a, is a big cost. So we've had to make some major, major adjustments to be able to survive today. So we're operating much more as an Airbnb model right now and doing some additional stuff, additional rooms available, particularly on weekends and stuff.

But it's been very difficult. The industry has been, I mean, it's been really, really hard on the industry overall. And in our case in Chilwack, our particular. a hotel. It's been very difficult. We, you know, the industry is, is, well, it has its good strong months, you know, from about May, June, July, August, September, October. Those are its strong months with the strongest being July and August. And then the, the other months, the year, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, those are

really tough months in, in, in, and so if you don't make it during the, during the, during the good months, which this year there was no good month. And so it's made it really, really tough. And so it's changed the model at this point. That's one of the reasons I wanted to have you on is because we spoke and you mentioned what the hotel was going through. And it was kind of like, oh my gosh, a lot of what I've seen with businesses suffering and going down has not been local. I have not seen a bunch of storefronts in Chilliwack or the Fraser Valley all closed up and locked it down. But this is happening to a place I've worked and other hotels within our community and as much as it might feel like,

well, that's just a chain or I've never stayed at the Royal Hotel. So how does it affect me? It's like, well, it affects you because people are staffed there. People are employed there. Tourism brings in people into our community here, which keeps other businesses open. Like the hotel is what brings someone in. And then the next morning they go shopping and they eat breakfast and lunch and are part of our community for a few days.

And that's what's been impacted due to COVID. And so what can people do? How can we start to understand this better? Yeah, it's a tough one because it's, you know, you realize how important it is to make some of those changes that have that have been made, you know, to reduce the international travel, for example, you understand that. So, but that's where, you know, if we, if we as a local community, if we support our local businesses and, you know, get out there and support the restaurants, for example.

The, you know, the attractions do stuff locally because you are locally, so you can continue doing that. From the guest room side of the hotel, particularly, you know, first of all, if you don't think that it's a good place to stay, please do come and take a look at the place and realize how neat and unique a place it is to stay, but beyond that is to, you know, if you've got friends and family coming in and you need that extra space, you don't want them staying in your house or whatever it is, you know, send them to the local hotels, to the, you know, to the royal hotel or, you know, whatever other location it is. But, you know, recommend the,

recommend the place because it is a unique little gem in the community. It provides good service. The service is as good as any other place in town. And so. That's one thing I've seen a lot of is even myself. I just went to Euclut and had a fantastic experience and lots of other people I've seen on social media are going there. And that's one thing that it's great to go to Euclilit and I'm happy I went.

But I want people to know about this local place that needs our support, the needs our attention because if it doesn't get the support it needs, It ends up very much like the paramount in those type of situations. Luckily, I'm hoping we can talk now about who owns the business and his impact and his support for this local gem. Well, you know, in 1995, Alex, Alex Marks or Choac Holdings, but Alex Marks is the guy that bought the place. And, you know, if it hadn't been for his commitment over the years and I have no problem saying that, if it hadn't been for his commitment, over the years, building the place to what it is today and also operating the place, especially over the years that I've been there, his support has been absolutely the best

that it could be for somebody to, you know, make something like that happen. And it's, and it's not that it's made him a pile of money. In fact, it's probably not made him any money at all over the years, realistically, considering what he's all put into it, but he's just invested into it because he believes in the community and he believes in looking at things of heritage and that they have value and it's good for us to keep them around and to make sure we understand how they contribute to our community, in part just because they describe our history, right? They describe where we've come from and how we've got to this point. So that's valuable from many perspectives, but including the hotel and its contribution to the community. Absolutely. And Alex is such an interesting guy because I think how you introduced me to him was the owner looks just like a regular person. He doesn't dress anything fancy and you are absolutely right. And most of the time he's doing him and his son are doing the work to keep the house. Yeah. And that's so interesting because it was so humbling to see the person who owns the building going in and fixing whatever the problem was today rather than hiring some outside person and completely being disconnected from the business.

he owns. Yeah. No, he's, he's very much been a part of it over the years, both in, in terms of, at times, running it more closely, and over the last number of years, more apart from that, but doing exactly like you said, in fact, he often came in and he said, well, I'm just the maintenance guy anyway, what do I know? And, well, he knows a lot more than just the maintenance, but anyway, but, but he has been doing, he has been doing the maintenance for it. And, and, you know, he's, he's, it's not only, it's not only, it's not only the, The hotel has been his location for a lot of what he's worked at, but he's also owned other parts of the downtown at various times. And, you know, and he's bought and sold or whatever it's had other businesses there. And he still has some other ones in town as well. But that's carried a lot of things through some of the tough years that the downtown's gone through is the fact that he's been there and he's committed himself to saying, well, we've got to make sure that something happens in the downtown. Yeah, that's so interesting because I know people get frustrated when people own big buildings and they get a little bit jealous and to have somebody who has that right mindset of trying to keep the downtown vibrant to support it because there are a lot of businesses that are empty and unsupported and unmaintained throughout Chilliwack. I think it's been addressed a lot by city council, but he was he was never a part of that.

All the businesses that I ever saw him operating were always he was doing his best. to make sure that they were well maintained, supported, and if there were any issues, they were being solved. And so this leads me a little bit into when I started at the hotel because I started at Dairy Queen and positive years there, but then I started looking at other opportunities. I worked at West 49 for a little bit. And then I ended up at Quiznos somehow for like a day,

and I had applied to the Royal Hotel, and I hadn't heard word back, but then you offered me to come in for an interview and I let quiz knows know. I went in and interviewed for the position and I did not think I was going to get it when I interviewed because you were in a dress shirt and I was probably in some sort of Walmart dress shirt that was very low quality in comparison. And in my mind, it was like, this is a very important job. You were laying out the responsibilities of you will have to phone. You will have to make sure you're here.

You'll have to make sure guests are happy. You'll have to deal with complaints. When I'm not here, you'll have to check in on rooms. And if you can help with our social media, that would be great. Then I leave, and I don't know if I have the position or not. You ended up offering it to me, and I told Quiznos, I didn't have them pay for the few days that I was there because I was like, I didn't do you any good training, so there's no need. And then I came and worked for you, and that really let me fill my potential in a huge way,

because you weren't just fill each box exactly how I told you to and don't do anything more. You were very encouraging and you wanted me to bring my ideas to the table. If you see something we can do better, tell me and we'll see if it works. If it doesn't work, unfortunately, like there's nothing we can do, but you had that mindset of do what you can and bring you to the Royal Hotel, bring some of your qualities, bring some of your skills and contribute to this place. And that was so humbling and it was such an honor. you took that risk on me and I'm pretty sure I was only like 17 maybe. And so looking back on

it now, I was not a put together person, but you took your risk on me and gave me that opportunity. What is that like to be able to give people these opportunities? Well, first of all, you know, I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure glad you, you responded and you took the opportunity and came because it's certainly worked out very well. So, so you were worth the risk. So, that's the first thing. So thank you very much for proving me right at that point, if that's what it is. Awesome. But, you know, more going back to it, you know, I think, I think, I can't say I remember exactly what I saw on you when you came.

But I did see somebody that was, well, first of all, I knew that you knew more about social media and marketing. You could do that better than I could write off the bat. I knew that much. but, you know, from what you'd describe. But in addition to that, I think probably what I saw was just a young person that was, I think you weren't afraid to be up front and to say exactly where you were at in the interview. And, you know, I'd have to go back to, I probably didn't keep enough interview notes at that point. But I just saw the kind of thing that I thought, you know, this guy's interested in what he's doing,

what he's doing. And I think we can work with him. He's trustworthy. He's going to be reliable and he's going to work at the stuff. And you certainly turn out to be that. You know, the other thing, Aaron, that I learned many years ago as a manager, as an operator or as a manager, though, was that, and I think it came from reading some management guru many years ago. But he said, you know, if you're going to be a manager, what you have to be able to do is you've got to find people who are going to be able to do the job that you're asking them to do better than what you can do it. Because otherwise, you might as well just do it yourself. And so when I looked at somebody like you and the other people that I've usually

had working for me, I've looked for somebody that I thought, well, that person can do that is going to be able to do the job as well as I can do it and better. I'm going to train them. I'm going to give them the tools and I'm going to ask them to, you know, make some decisions. So when you say that, you know, I was open to getting information from you. Well, that's absolutely right. I think I do want to do that because in the end, you should be able to do that job of working at the front desk or whatever it is, better than what I can do it,

because otherwise I'm going to have to do it myself. And my job at that point is to find somebody who can do it better than me. And I guess it did turn out that way. I think, you know, there was training that was involved, but we could see very quickly, you know, as we did the training that, you know, it was going to work. And I realize, and I will say there were, there were some times where I did feel, yeah, are we stretching ourselves a little bit?

This guy is pretty young, you know, and I'm entrusting certain things to him, you know, completely. He was the only person there at night, right? You were the only person there and we had to trust you to be able to do it. And I think I saw that trust, you know, the fact that you were trustworthy and I could see see that, you know, it showed up, you know, when we asked you to do something, something got done about it, and you, and so I think those, those were the kinds of things that I, that I, that I looked for. And so that's why I felt, I felt good about, you know,

going that direction. And it certainly, certainly paid off, paid off well. Well, you know, I show, I will just say one little unique thing about you. And, and that was the thing that intrigued me. And I loved it, actually, quite frankly. I think you called me one day. and you said, I think I call you a lot more than anybody else does, don't I? And I said, absolutely, right, you do. But I said, you know, do you remember that? Yes. And I said, but you know what?

As long as you don't call me about the same question twice, that's good for me, because that means you're just learning more stuff. Yeah. You remember that? I do remember that. And it was so true because that's what you did. You always had these questions and you'd say, well, okay, what about this? Can I do that or whatever it is?

And we'd talk about it, and then you'd go ahead and do it. You'd make it happen. And I don't remember you calling me twice about the same question. So that's a good thing. Yes, I remember learning so much. And it basically ruined me for my following employers for a while now. But now I'm at a place where I'm very happy. But one of the things I ended up struggling with was not speaking my mind and not having ideas on how we can do better and what we should do differently and how to approach things better.

Other places were not as interested in those conversations as I was. And so it was such an honor because I don't know if you remember, but you let me take a little bit of a stronghold on calling and when people would call for a hotel prices, being able to negotiate them when we were getting closer to maximum capacity. Once we were almost sold out, I'd say, hey, Len, we're almost sold out. Should we start offering these and start being competitive with our pricing with other hotels that are already sold out? We should take advantage of the opportunity.

And that was a huge growing moment for me because it was a negotiation over the phone. with someone where I'd lay out a price and say, it's this much for tonight. And they would be like, oh, that's a little bit. And then I'd lower it a little. And that was an experience that I have not had sins. But it was trust from you that you said, okay, I'm going to let this person be in charge of the pricing of the hotel for tonight. And those are the things I look back on and go, wow, Len trusted me with a lot and gave that to me. Well, you know, Aaron, and quite honestly, I enjoyed that with you because you were, you were so.

intrigued and interested in learning and being open to, you know, looking at those kinds of things. I remember that particularly, though, what you were referring to. In fact, I remember one night calling you, do you remember that? You made again, but I remember one night calling you and saying, Aaron, how come this room is out of order? What's the matter? How come we're not going to fill completely? And your comment was, oh, don't worry about it. I'm just waiting to get the best price out of that one. That's why it's not out of order. I'm just making sure nobody else books it at a lower price. I want to get

the best price. Then a little while later you called me and I forget what you got for it. What you said, here's what I got for the room and I says, oh, good man. I'm pretty sure I got something crazy like $180 for like an antique room or something. Probably. And like people who hear that might think oh, like you're just overcharging people, but

it's like, no, what I was trying to do was support the hotel. We offered prices that were competitive with other places, but we lose money. during other points of the year. And we need to make that money back in order for the hotel to succeed and grow. Absolutely.

And that is the, you know, that's not only the hotel industry works that way. The airline industry does. And guess what? If California, if all the tomatoes and lettuce freezes in California, what happens to the price here at your grocery store? You know, I mean, it goes all over the place. That's the nature of our economy, right?

Yes, supply and demand. And it's not like you. were being outlandish with it. Like it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't like, you know, double the price or anything. Yeah, yeah. And not in line with what was available in the market altogether. It was, yeah, it was just good business. Yeah.

And I just enjoyed that. And being able to have those conversations of a business quality with somebody was my first interaction. And so I went on to do parking jobs and stuff where I had similar approaches and they didn't fly because there's certain ways other places like to do. do things. And so that was a growing moment for me. But I also want to talk about your team because you had almost every person there was unique and you wanted their uniqueness. For example, I was social media and I was really focused on trying to get all of our post scheduled,

getting tons of photos and really showing off the hotel and taking advantage of being able to do that. Laura brought history and stories and different photos that I could post for social media. But then can we also talk about the housekeeper that was there because she took her job so seriously. Oh, she's still there. Leanne is still there. Awesome. Yeah. And you know what? You're absolutely right. Each person that was part of the team brought their own unique kind of contribution. And that was the thing that really allowed us to flourish during that

time. And I think should be in any workplace, really, because everybody does bring their own unique kinds of things. And so for Leanne, the, you know, their housekeeping supervisor, And she's still there. And she's just done an incredible job. You know, we said impeccable cleanliness is what we want to be. And, you know, if we're not impeccably clean, we're just an old hotel. And that's what changed it. And, yeah, when I decided I was going to move there, you know, from the comfort in, move over to the Royal Hotel,

I knew that we needed to have somebody that would really lead our housekeeping. team and established standards and whatever. And she'd worked for me over at the comfort in at some points. And I knew what kind of work she did and the kind of person she was. And so I had a meeting with her. And I know that she had told me at one point, she said, you know, I always want to run a bed and breakfast, except I don't want to do the breakfast part. And so I said to her, here's a chance.

You can run it and run it for us and, you know, make it happen for us. But you don't need to worry about the breakfast. And so, so she came and she came and she did. joined the team and has just brought that contribution. And during that time, you know, she did some extra training and took some courses and supervisory skills and all kinds of stuff like that to make sure. And of course, now she's had to adjust the team to, you know, the housekeeping team altogether to, you know, meeting, meeting the standards of COVID because there's things that have changed there. Yeah. Yeah. She is so unique because you did bring on other

housekeeping people for her to lead, but they were people from the community who might not have opportunities otherwise. Could we talk a little bit about that? Because I think that that's part of the cornerstone of being of why you should be here, why you belong here is because you always, with everything in that hotel, you were always about trying to make it a community environment and building that into the structure. You know, most of us work, we work with people we like to work with and more people quit their jobs because they don't like the people they work with than because they don't like the job itself. And so I think, you know, making sure that you're, that you are human, that you, that you are who you are in the environment

where you work, in the place that you work, that you bring your values, you bring your, you're caring, your, your ways of working with other people and you, you know, the reason, you know, the reasons for doing that, and you bring that, bring that to your workplace, not in a sense that you, you know, push people, people, things on certain people, but you, you, well, you care for, you care for people because they're more important than, than the business in the end anyway, you know, in the end, you're going to leave the business at some point or the place, and you want to care, you want to make sure that the relationships and the caring about people and call it love, whatever you want to call it, but those things are, those things are more

vital and they're more critical in life anyway. Eventually, you're not going to need to work anymore and you're still going to want your family around you, right? That's the kind of scenario. I think we have to make sure we have those kinds of values. And so when you're working together, it's good to create that community, that sense of feeling that you support each other and that you work together. That doesn't mean that there aren't rough spots and there will be rough times or whatever it is. But, you know, I think one of the things that I, another thing that I realized some years ago, at one point I was doing employment counseling and you tend to be a bit of a counselor, what do you want to call it? And, you know, you've done, you've maybe

worked in that kind of capacity as well. But I realized at one point that I was, I was probably a better manager who cared about people that I was a counselor who should also manage the counseling business. Yeah. That makes sense. And so at some point, I just decided that, you know what, I might as well leave that. And that's when I landed up at the Comfort Inn in 95 or whatever it was. But, but, you know, just to realize that where you're working, the people you work with and the people that are part of your business, you know, the customers as well for that matter. But it's much more about caring about people. And when you do care about them, people perform well because they want to work there, right? They, they want to do

their job. Most people want to do their job well. Yeah. And so it's a question of providing them with the support and the caring and making sure they know that they're appreciated and valued. Yeah, that is that is such a unique thing about you again, which is I hear a lot of people talk about how people say people are stupid and common sense isn't that common. And all of these negative things to kind of summarize humanity. Yeah. And I haven't enjoyed that. And one unique thing about you is you've worked with people your whole career in a very front line way.

where you are talking to people, you are talking to customers, you would cover the desk if no one was else available. And you would do that job exceptionally. You would take it seriously. You would try and connect with the person. You'd try and build a connection with them, even if it was for a moment.

Well, what made you so interested in doing that? What brought you to that place where you've been doing it? When I met you, you were just as passionate about talking to customers as I'm sure you were in the very beginning. What is it about you that makes you see people with such value.

Well, that's a big question. There's a lot of angles to that. But let me just give you a little story, and then I'll tell you a little bit more about it. But just the other day, there was a, just recently, there was a gentleman that stayed at the hotel for a period of time. And there was one annoying little thing that had occurred.

And basically, They smoked in the room, and that's a no-no in our hotel. And we knew it had happened. We'd talked to him about it, and he'd kind of denied it and said it wasn't happening or whatever it was. And in the long run, we know that it was. And so when he left, that meant he wasn't getting his damage deposit back. And initially, he replied, it was by email that he had replied, and he tore a strip off me and called me all kinds of things, whatever it was.

And my response to him, I pondered my response. I was disturbed by it, but I pondered my response. And I'm trying to make myself look at here. But all I'm saying is I kind of disseminated it and said, you know what, basically I want to wish him well because he's going to move on anyway. And he's not a bad guy. It's just that he's walking the room and we didn't want that, you know. And so I replied with a kind of just a very generic, a generic, but a, you know, wishing him well kind of response and just said, you know, that's what it was. he came back to me

I met him as he was leaving actually and he apologized and he said he apologized for his comments and for his attitude and whatever and we left as friends basically and to me that's just so that's just so valuable

and I think what it comes down to is the fact that you know goes back into who I am here I guess in the sense but for me for me my

I've grown up with an understanding of a creator of God, somebody that cares and has cared about me. And I'm not trying to push religion here. That's not what it is. But I'm just saying that's part of who I am. And I've been so valued by somebody else and by God. And he values everybody the same way. And I can't do anything else but value other people the same way as well.

And I guess that's kind of what it was down to. If that's the kind of caring that's been shown to me, I have no choice but to do the same for others. And I hate saying it that way in a sense because I know some people are probably going to say, well, I don't always see you doing that, and that's probably true. But that's what it boils down to.

There's something really deep and foundational about that that says, that's where I live. That's where I work with a faith in a God that cares and has loved me and has loved the world and the world that he's created. and everybody in it and I mean everybody in it and that even means

if it's somebody that's sitting in the back of a hotel and getting their drug stuff ready and so how I respond to that person at that point very much is a question of how I've been responded to as the imperfect person

that I am as well and so I have a responsibility at that point to be very caring and respectful of who that person is because they're created in the image of the same God that I am. Yeah, I love that so much because as people have known if they've been keeping up, I've been struggling with that same topic of who are we, where are we, what's going on,

and how did we get here? And I've thought a lot about it. And I think my ideas are still growing. And as they should, I'm not very old. And so that should grow. But one thing I wanted to just jump on was that that was part of what you brought to that hotel the entire time. we would one problem that we would run into is that we have a little foyer in the royal hotel where there was a bench and people homeless people would come in and they would just lay down on the bench and that always put staff in an awkward position of we would go in we would say please leave and they would say no or they would just roll over they would ignore and your approach and the approach you instilled in staff was always to treat them well and try and help and just ask them to leave please. lightly and if there was an issue to call Griffin or to call somebody else to

have them removed but it was never from a negative response and you would often be the person to go out and do it yourself you wouldn't send somebody else to do that and you would have such a positive approach what what has that been like to operate because the comfort in is on the freeway it's very far from any homeless camps or any vulnerable people where the Royal Hotel is in the heart of downtown in a community that has been struggling for a really long time that does have vulnerable and individuals who end up coming inside and just trying to warm up. What has that been like?

Yeah. You know, actually, I would say overall, I would say for me, it's been a good experience to do that. Not because I think it's not, it's not that I didn't know that that was part of our community beforehand, but to see it a little more firsthand and to, you know, be walking alongside side it, so to speak, a little bit more firsthand. That was a very, that was very good, very good for me. It was tough at times because, as you know, you may remember, I also sat on the BIA board for a period of time.

And of course, the BIA was dealing with how do we deal with these tough issues, right? Because it's tough for businesses when, when you're trying to, you know, operate your business, even ours as a hotel. and you've got this other part of the downtown that's around you. And so it's really tough to, you know, how do you make those decisions? You know, how do you manipulate or how do you manipulate it? How do you set priorities for Griffin or the security companies, right? How should they move people on or not or what should they be doing, you know?

And yet you can't have needles lying around in front of your business on the ground. And so how do you deal with that? So it's a tough, it's a tough issue. So for me, I think being downtown probably helped me grow or to learn a little bit more about it. And you said, you're young guy still growing. I hope I grow up someday and know everything. I don't. But, you know, you keep learning through life, right?

The kinds of things you learn may change a little bit, but you keep learning. But, yeah, I guess the thing that I often It was part of my, I'll say my prayer, my concern was always to make sure that I treat the people that I come across with real genuine respect and understand them as people as opposed to a problem, you know, if that makes sense. and I sometimes it's been really difficult I mean we you know we would get people

hanging around the back of the building well I can't have that happening it's private property I can't have that happening so how do you move people away from that you know and you know

what point do you call Griffin at what point do you go and speak to somebody and just sort of speak to them and respectfully engage in a conversation and there's times when I think I've messed up I didn't do it as well as I should have you know

I know I had one guy a while back and I realized later that you know what I should have here's what I really should have done I should have handled a little bit differently and sometimes it's in retrospect that you get that and hopefully you don't do that too often right you learn from it right yeah and it's that humility of coming back and saying that you can do it better next time yeah and that there probably is going to be a next time there will be and I think that that's so good to be able to have you on who's had to deal with those frontline issues

because we're at a very awkward state right now, I think, where we don't know exactly what we're supposed to do with them. And I don't think maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but businesses in these circumstances don't get a cheat sheet on how to ask somebody to leave in a polite and friendly way that actually works. And so it is something that we were grappling with and trying to work together on and even having guests stay there that might not have been bringing the right element that we were looking to share or people who got way too drunk and started causing shenanigans in the hotel, those were issues that I'd have to deal with, but it was never to instigate something and I'm not Griffin's security going up the stairs to kick them out.

I'm trying to figure out what's going on. Is everyone safe? And trying to mediate between these different ideas. And that was another opportunity that I had when working there was to realize, you said, there are going to be people who make decisions we don't agree with in this hotel. We have to walk that boundary. We have to figure out exactly how to approach them. So it was a huge moral growth of what role am I in.

I'm not Griffin's care. I'm not a police officer. I'm here. I'm just here to help and try and resolve any client issues. Yeah. And so what has that been like having that throughout the hotel and always some different person from some different walk of life to deal with? Well, my approach, you know, again, from the business perspective, and I think, We may well have talked about it, is that, is that, well, and I think if you look at the, what's it, the lodging legislation or whatever it is, essentially you're not in a position where you can refuse somebody to stay at your hotel.

Like, just because I don't like the color of your hair or, you know, the way you're doing something, I, I'm not in a position to refuse you accommodation on that. if you're violating, if you're doing, if you're damaging the hotel or you're, you know, disrupting everybody else or whatever it is, then I have the right as a, as the, you know, as the operator to, to have you removed. But I think, and I may have said that to you, my, are as much as, as much as I may disagree with somebody's behavior, in other words, moral behavior, morally I may disagree with them or whatever it is, I'm not as an operator of the business at that point in the position to, you know, like, that's not my job is to, is to change their moral behavior.

That's not my job at that point. That's, and that's not the responsibility that you as an employee have. You do have a responsibility to look after the safety of your, of that guest and of all the other guests. And, and obviously whatever legal things that are there, I mean, if somebody's, you know, silly example. somebody who was there abusing children. Obviously, you have a responsibility to report that, right, as you would at any other situation. But in terms of whether the person is doing something

in the room, which you personally would think, that's an awful thing to be doing, and it's morally wrong or whatever it is, at that point, that's not your legal, or your business responsibility at that point. If it's something which is legally wrong, then that's a different matter. then you may have an obligation to do that. So that's a bit of a challenge. How do you walk that line? At the same time, knowing what your own personal values and, you know, things are that you, that you hold dear and are important to you and you know are better for life, right? Yeah.

And so it's always a tough, it's a tough thing. And I guess if that was a learning part for you as well, and it's still a learning one for me, I don't think it's an easy one. Well, I have to give you a lot of credit because when I worked there, I don't think we ever discussed religion at any point in time. And that's obviously a relationship you have in your life. And that never came up. But these conversations were and you clearly did draw a very good distinction between your personal moral values and that we can put on other people. And I've seen and heard of a lot of other businesses that won't serve homeless people that don't like them that will try and get them to leave if they can. heard the stories, I've seen things happen. And so that's such a unique thing about you

where you do draw those distinctions in those lines and say, and you even communicated that to me. As much as we morally may disagree, that's not our role here. And being able to draw those lines is so important. I think that some of the most important people in our community are very good at it. I've seen crown a lot. Draw those moral distinctions of, do I agree with theft? Absolutely not. But under these circumstances, this is how we're going to proceed to try and help the person not have to steal again and be able to decipher good ideas from it. And I think that you brought that a lot

and I learned a lot from those experiences. What has it been like working with other businesses in the hotel side of things and working with and trying to articulate other businesses people should visit when they're staying at the hotel? Well, I guess I would say and I think this is what we tried to do as a staff and I think you probably did as well.

But what I often looked at was, okay, what is this person, why are they here? You know, why are they here in town? And I guess the thing, you know, are they here on pleasure? Are they here because they're vacationing or whatever it is? And typically, for most people, when they're staying at a hotel, there's some free time on their hands. I mean, they may be, in some cases, they're working and that's all that they're doing, right? But it's kind of building a rapport and a relationship with the people that you're working with, or that are coming in and understanding what it is that they're about.

Why are they there? And, you know, it's not a matter of prying into their personal life, but just sort of finding out what is it, what is it they're interested in. You know, I think of the number of times when somebody would come in and, you know, we were just talking. And out of that, you know, you realize they had some extra time or whatever it was. And so you'd ask them, well, you know, like, well, what do you like doing? And so somebody would say, well, you know, we,

do some gardening or something like that. Oh, did you, you know, if you want to see a really unique garden center and go to, go to, you know, mentor country garden because, you know, you're going to find almost, and then you would say, well, you know, are you interested in gardening or whatever? And then they would start saying some things about that and say, okay, well, why don't you head over there? Because you're going to find, you'll spend all afternoon there if you've got time, you know, if you've got the time, right? And they do and they come back later and they say, oh, that was just great, you know, or the next

person is, you know, kind of, oh, just going for a walk and just seeing stuff, well, birds, birds and stuff. And so you send them to the, to the, you know, Blue Heron Reserve, right? And so there's lots of those kinds of things. So that's kind of the way, that's kind of the way I would approach a lot of that is, you know, and that's what we would encourage people to do, you know. And so you've got somebody that comes in and they want to, you know, Yeah, it's their anniversary.

Well, where would you want? Well, you want a good meal? Go for the Bravels, you know? Yeah. Or something like that, you know? I mean, bravos is an excellent place, right? Yeah. Can't get a probably nicest place in town at this point.

Absolutely. You know, but very good, very good place. And there's other places. And of course, if that's not your kind of liking, you want to do something a little bit different than, you know, some of the other places, right? Whether it's Bocinis or Greek islands or who knows where, right? Yeah. But I think it's that checking with, checking, checking with guests and that's what I, and I've always enjoyed doing that, you know, like getting that little bit of information. It just helps you when you ask those kinds of questions, and I think you learned how to do that as well.

You had asked those kinds of questions, just find out, what are they doing here in town? Well, we're just visiting a bunch of friends or something like that. Or somebody else is, you know, looking for something really, you know, more adventurous to do. Well, you know, you tried better, you know, hiking, you want to do some hiking, whether it's better mountain or Mount Cheam, which you haven't climbed yet, right? Yeah. But, you know, it's those kinds of things. And the other one, the other one that actually is an intriguing one is, is the people that come with the, with First Nations interests, you know, especially when we'd have the Europeans coming, you know, from Germany or wherever it is. And they would be just fascinated with that.

And of course, it deservingly fascinating, some of that history is just very fascinating. So, and so even just at some point sending them over to the, you know, the cultural heritage site, you know, over to. Stolo, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, and then there's the one in Mission as well, the Satum. Right. Yeah, the site there.

But anyway, you know, there's all those kinds of things there, which are, you know, just neat things about our community. And so. Well, let's talk a little bit. bit since we're on the topic of your favorite small businesses and ones that you enjoy. I know if you asked my wife as to where the best place to go to eat for an anniversary would be Greek islands. She loves it. Yeah. And that is on hawking. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. They're very good. What's your favorite thing to get there? Oh, you know, actually sitting around with six people and ordering their platter of, you know, their, you know, their, you know, their platter for six or whatever it is.

That's, that's the great, that's the best one. Oh, awesome. Oh, that's great. And then Al's Supply House? Yeah, you know, a unique little place, if you've ever, if you're, if you're into, and I do a little bit of that because I've got an old car that I'm trying to fix up. And so if you need, you need ideas or tools, you know, unique little tools or whatever it is, go to go see the guys in L's supply hose. He's, the guys in there, you know, you run into a problem with the welding, especially if you're a do, you're just, selfer kind of guy. And, and they'll take the time and he's got an interesting kind of response to a lot of stuff, but he's, but it's really good and, and the unique sort of stuff

that you can find in there. Good, good place. Yeah. I like it. You know, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's something nice about the bigger places like the KMS tools and those kinds of places as well, but, but, uh, else is a good guy. Yeah. And you're a do it yourself type of person, right? I love it. Yeah. Yeah, too much sometimes probably according to some people, but what are some of the things that you've done it yourself and enjoyed. Oh, well, over the years, you know, when our kids, I have three daughters, right? And, well, I'll just say, first of all, my wife and I decided when we were, you know, having kids and whatever that we wanted to raise our own kids.

In other words, we didn't, we, so that meant certain things in terms of salary and earnings and stuff like that. And so that we, she did work. She certainly worked from time to time, but not where it was a career in the same sense that, you know, where you've got a family with two people both working in careers. Anyway, so as a result of that, our income levels were based primarily on one with some additional, right? And so when our kids got to the point where we needed a second vehicle because our kids were starting to drive, then the deal was that I would, we would buy them. them a car, as long as they paid for the gas and the insurance, and I would keep it running for them.

So that's my do-it-yourself kind of stuff, right? So I've done everything from pulling the engine apart and rebuilding it to, you know, doing other kinds of repairs on that kind of thing. And so they managed all through those years until they finally said, Dad, that's enough. We'll go buy ourselves a new car now. And so they've done that, you know, but that took them through high school or college years or whatever the schooling that were going through for their early. years. So we were able to do that. But that was fun. I enjoy that kind of stuff and fixing up

around the house too. Yeah. Yeah, we've done, I've done some inside, you know, the renovating and that kind of stuff. We did that kind of stuff too. That's such an interesting topic. And that's what I wanted to get into was your family dynamic and the work you've put into your family because I think that that is a part of the podcast. I've really wanted to focus on and build up is that it starts from home. It doesn't start in the career. And I think, think a lot of people have maybe, maybe I've done a bad job of communicating this, but where I want to start is the home and careers are great and working at a hotel and the impact you made there is monumental. But you've also created three people who are now going to carry on your legacy

and carry on some of your mindsets and some of your approaches. And that is an area I really want to get into with you because one thing that I experienced at the hotel was that you were in an amazing relationship. And I felt that because your wife would come in. She would check in with me, see how I'm doing? And then she'd check in on you by saying, how is he doing up there? And it's like, he's doing good. He's working hard. He's, he's focused. He's grinding upstairs. And that connection where she'd be bringing you dinner or she'd just be checking in or she'd be driving someone from somewhere and just checking in on you. Those are such amazing things. And for my generation, I hear way too much of cheating, Tinder. I know we've had some guests on.

who've done well on Tinder and found their soulmates, and that's great. But I'm talking about the people who have a bad mindset when it comes to love and commitment. Can you tell us a little bit about your experience? Well, you know, I think, and I guess I don't mind speaking about it. And I will, but I just want to say that I do it with all humility because there's much that contributes to, well, we've been married 45. years back in June our anniversary, and there's much that's contributed and spoken into our life in various ways over the years, everything from our, well, even at this point, our children and our grandchildren, but our friends, our church, our relationship with our people at church,

our friends and people like that, they've all spoken into our life, into our life and our relationship at various times. And, you know, to, we could have never done it on our own. I guess that's the way I would put it. And as much as it is Marilyn and I that have been married for 45 years, but if it hadn't been for the people around us that have, that have been there to support us and to encourage us at times and to walk with us at times when it's been crap, you know, when things have been really rough.

And they have, there have been rough times. and if it hadn't been for those people and for the fact that, you know, I think Maryland's commitment has been to our relationship just as much as what mine has been. It's been a very mutual thing. And so if it hadn't been for that, we wouldn't be where we are today.

We, you know, it's 45 years. I met her, I was actually working for her dad. I worked for him for two years. There's a volunteer, in fact, with the Midnight Central Committee. or MCC, and I was doing a volunteer thing at a group home, basically a rural group home that her dad had just started running, and I was the first volunteer that worked there. He had ran the place for a number of years, but I worked for him for two years.

And, of course, I had met her older sister, and when the first time I met, it came into the home, I knew the older sister. She was a very, very fine sister. And then I saw there was a younger sister, and I knew those two were there. and then when I came into the home the first time because he brought me into his home because he knew I was a little lonely at that point and so he brought me into his home

and I realized, oh, there's another sister there and so kind of a thought, hmm, well, anyway, it grew into a friendship really to begin with and we became, I think we both had, we're in other relationships at the time but those kind of fell away at some point and there was a friendship that grew there And long before there was any consideration of anything else,

there was the friendship there that existed. And I would say that's probably been the basis of it. And there was shared, there was shared faith. There was shared, you know, a lot of other things like that that were shared. There was similar in our upbringing, although there were differences. She grew up in the city. I grew up in Yarrow. So, you know, rural country kid in a very narrow kind of community, right,

which Yarrow was at the time when I grew up, narrow, I would say almost narrow minds. in some, because the church life was very much part of what we grew up with. But she'd grown up in a very different environment, and yet we brought those two things together and just enjoyed friendship, and then there was a time to which I guess we decided more. You know, and I remember, again, thinking about, you know, people that speak into your life or contribute to you for the relationship. at our wedding, her dad brought her down the aisle. And one of the things, the thing that he said,

and it's stayed with me. In fact, I've, well, what he said was, Len, because Maryland's chosen you, we also choose you to be part of that family. And to me, that was just an incredibly powerful statement. because marriage and a commitment and that marriage covenant and whatever it's a covenant and it's a marriage commitment to each other that's very much a choice

it's a choice to do that it doesn't it's not it's not magic in that sense it's a choice that you make to to commit yourself and to covenant with each other and to say and the covenant kind of perspective and getting a little technical here But the covenant, and I'm using, I guess, probably I would say a Hebrew-Jewish kind of understanding of the word covenant.

The covenant basically is that my decision to love you as my wife isn't based on you loving me. It's simply, that's my choice, that's my covenant with you that I will love you regardless. And her response is the same thing. So it's not a contract. It's not, if you do this, then I'll do this. It's simply, that's my decision. That's my covenant with you. That's my choice.

That's my decision. And that's the direction I'm going to go. And so that's why then you can say through, you know, through sickness and health or whatever you want to say those things. And we didn't say them exactly that way. We had our own way. We wrote our own vowels, basically, is what it is. There were certain requirements that we had to include.

But beyond that, we wrote our own. And so that's been the basis of our, of our relationship. And then we've gone through some tough times. There's times where things haven't necessarily always gone well. There's no question about that. But on the other hand, that's been the choice. So I remember, I think it was, you remember the preacher, Billy Graham, you probably don't remember him, but do you remember the name? Oh, okay, he was an evangelist many years ago, and he did these great big things, you know, talked to 50,000 people in Los Angeles or wherever it was all over the world.

But he traveled all over the world, and his wife one day was asked, or this was in their later years, he just passed away, he was almost 100 or just 100. But anyway, his wife one day was asked, you know, well, with your husband gone so much, you know, like did you ever consider divorce? And she said, no, murder, yes, but never divorce. So, but, but it's that kind of, that's kind of thing where, where there's a, there's a choice. And so, and I understand that things change. Not everybody's the same. But, but, but I think that's the, that was, that was the basis. That's the commitment for us. So we've had three, three kids. We've kind of. have tried to instill some of what we valued there. So with each of our three girls, our daughters are all married at this point. And, you know, over the last number of years, some 15 years. But anyway, they're, there, we did the same thing. When I did the same thing. When I, you know, it was, it was a choice.

We've, we've chosen those guys to be part of our family as well. And our daughter's chosen, we've chosen as well. And so they're part of the family. Can you go a little bit more into the choosing part? Because I do understand what you're saying. But for listeners, what does that choice mean for you when your daughter chooses to marry a person? What is that commitment to you when you say you choose them? And what that meant to you when Marilyn's father said that to you?

What is what is that? How does that manifest itself? You know, I think, I think I would say, I would say it this way. You know, there's, there's, there's, there's times in. in your friendships or your relationships where you, you kind of, you're with someone and you sort of realize, oh, I don't like that part about that person that much.

And so you kind of say, well, okay. You know, and eventually sort of drift apart and you don't become, you're not necessarily good friends. With your, I would say, in a relationship with your sibling, you know, if you've got a brother or a sister, or a sibling or whatever or whatever at least this is the way I would put it okay with my I come from a family of eight kids right

so there was there's there's more than just me and and but with my I remember somebody once talking to me and saying oh your sister she's really good looking or whatever and I looked at her later and I thought oh I don't know she's my sister right and so the imperfections

that might have been there or were not there really didn't mean much to me because she was my sister. My commitment, my choice, or my commitment in that relationship with her was not changing because she was my sister, right? And I think when I, coming back to the question about what does it mean to choose, that's kind of what it did. You know, in this case, he wasn't born into my family. My son-in-law wasn't, my son-in-law, sons-in-law haven't been born into my family.

But at the point in which I said, okay, my daughter has chosen you to be her partner and I'm choosing you as well. Basically, you're coming into my family and the choices that you are now part of it the same way. And so you're imperfections or you're, you know, whether you're good looking or not or whether you're, whatever it is, those are no longer a part of what I'm going to choose or what I'm going to use to say whether I'm going to have my relationship with you is going to continue or not. I'm committed to you. I think we need way more of that because I do see a lot of people having exactly what you're saying, where they're like, I don't like how this person doesn't do their laundry and stuff. And it's like, you can work together with the person to address those issues, but that should not be an issue you're bringing up as to whether or not you should be with another person. And that's how I approached it with my partner, which was, hey, you have some family that's not so great. I've had struggles with family.

Obviously, I don't even know who my dad is. So I know what it's like to be left, but I'm not going to operate like that with my uncle, with my mother, with my close family. I don't think about whether or not I'm going to choose them or not. You don't think about, oh, this person talked to me this way. Maybe I just won't be their family member anymore. You don't run through that scenario. You kind of go, well, they messed up. I've messed up too.

Let's try and find a way to come back together. And that's what it sounds like you're talking about. And I think that those are the things I want to be able to talk about because that's so important. And that is such a nuanced way of looking at relationships, which is some of you choose, your work relationships, whether or not you talk to the person every day or not, that's a choice. But when it comes to these fundamental people that you have in your life, that you're saying, I'm going to be there for you in the tough times when you're stuck on the side of the road at 2 in the morning. And you call me, I'm going to be there.

It's not a choice. It's not something I'm going to reconsider and be like, well, I don't really like you that much. So I'm going to roll back over and go back to sleep. It's like, I've agreed to have you in my life and I'm going to do what that means. And so what has that been like? What is it, has that, is that a meaningful way to live your life in your opinion? Yeah, I would say it is. Again, I'm going to, I'm going to relate that to my faith in the sense that I guess I see that there is no other,

there is no other way to do it but that. And again, for me, that comes down to a real question of faith in the God, in the creator, who is there, who cares, and who's cared so much for me. That, and that's his commitment to me, right? Regardless of how badly I screw up or not, he's never, he's never leaving me. He's never gone. He's always there. He's always there.

And I may be, you know, I may have turned around and not figured out where he's at, but he's never, he's never left and he's never gone. And so that's at the root of that for me, and I guess that's the reason why I say, yeah, I think that I think it's very important. And I guess I'm called to emulate and to do the same thing. Yeah, that is amazing. You know, just a funny little story about that, though, because it has its funny little instance about that.

One of our, how much should a person say about your family? But at one point, there was a comment, there was somebody that called and said, Dad, I'm so frustrated. I want to come home. And I said, no, you're not. And you kept them there. Yeah. I won't describe more of the situation, but it has those funny kinds of things as well, because basically it was a statement, and, and, you know, the person on the other end understood, the daughter on the other understood what we were talking about, right? But, but, but it's, it's one of those where, well, no, no, just a minute. That's a decision you've made. Now we move, now we move on. And, and, and, and again, I mean, that's, that's, that's a difficult thing.

to say and I know there's good there you know there could be people that misinterpret misunderstand that you know like if it's a situation where there's nasty physical abuse like what are we talking about well that that's not the situation I was referring to

right in the story I was telling you so those situations need to be addressed as well I mean those aren't right right so and so I'm not trying to say that you know somebody in that kind of a situation that I have

all the answers and that what I what I've just said solves all of that for that I that's I don't think where it is and that's that's the interesting what's the word paradox about these things right that's the interesting paradox because there is there is this this commitment that says

it's come hell or higher water you know come for good or for bad you know whatever and yet there's there's this other side which which is destruct can be destructive and all kinds of things. And so how do you deal with that? Yeah, it's like 80% of the time.

It's probably going to be something where they can resolve it themselves, but 20% of the time, it can end up being something severe and serious where involvement is required. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely have a friend who's kind of in a similar circumstance being in a relationship and then they kind of broke up. But then the families encouraged them to try and see each other's perspectives and look

at the long game of, of course. you're going to disagree. Of course you're going to misunderstand and be just right at the end of what you're capable of carrying. But it's about trying to get through it. And it's about having that long-term mindset. And I think that that's something that adults, real grown adults, understand. And for most of them, they understand that you're sick of them leaving hair in the, in the shower. Yes, of course you are. But think of the long game. Don't focus on these short frustrations because there are always going to be short frustrations. And that's so interesting that you're able to see that as well and work through those

things. And I wish more people had that mindset because I know guys who get into relationships and they put in a lot of good work that the first three months. And then it's like, well, now we're together. Now I don't have to do that anymore. And that is wild. Can you talk a bit about that, about that idea that at some point in time, you're done and you just get to relax and watch TV?

Yeah, I don't think that ever happens. I mean, it doesn't mean that, you know, yeah, I don't know how exactly to respond to that. Other than that, the fact of the matter is the relationship is ongoing. I mean, you know, we've been, again, we've been married 45 years. And I'm sure you can find many other people married 45 and 50 years. And they're saying, oh, I'm learning all kinds of new things about my partner at this point that I never knew before, you know. And is it because she's got that much smarter or is it just that I finally opened my eyes to something, you know? And I think that's, that's really what it is.

And that's any relationship, right? A relationship. And it's, it's never, I guess it's never really done, right? A good friend of mine said, you know, I retired so that I could, so that I could get to know my wife better. Yeah. That's an amazing outlook. You don't hear that very often. No.

No. But, you know, but there's a truth to that, right? Because over so many years, you're both, you're working or both, or if it's only one of you, but you're working and you're doing, you know, you're doing your thing. And then, and then at some point you realize that, you know what, we've had, we've shared all these years together, but there's a lot of things we don't know about each other. And we got into it probably because we really were interested in each other and, you know, enjoying a lot of things with each other. And now we've sort of let some of that slide. So how do we get back

to it, you know? Absolutely. I think that that's a really good example of the two sides pulling on each other is the idea that children come first in a relationship or they don't come first where it's like it's kind of in the middle where your relationship is still incredibly important when you have children. You always created the children together for some reason. And so hopefully you love them. But the idea that the relationship is obviously going to outlast with each other, the children are going to one day move out, leave, find their own partners and live their own life. and some people don't realize that when they're in the toddler phases is that they invest everything into the kid and nothing into their partner and then five years in they're like

why don't like my partner anymore I should leave and it's like but you guys were supposed to be doing two things at once raising the children and being a team and some people forget about that what was your experience with that where you do run into like obviously children come first in their health and their safety and their warmth but you also want to maintain and keep a romantic relationship with the person you've chosen to spend the rest of your life with. Yeah. Well, I think at some points there's no question that, you know, especially when the kids are younger, whatever, it pulls you in all kinds of directions.

I think one of the things we always tried to do was we always tried to make sure that even our Our working with our kids was that we were both involved with it. And, you know, I think I would certainly, you know, that is an example, for example, I would say certainly, I think Marilyn Cleave, you know, changed more diapers than what I did when the kids were young. On the other hand, I think I did a fair number, you know, I did my share. In fact, I tell my kids now when they want me to change the diapers on the grandkids, not until you've caught up and with. as many as I've done, you know, but, but I think, you know, and, and, and as much as there, you know, because, because I was working out of the home differently than what she was. And so, um, a lot of the time, not all the time. There were times when she did as well. Um, but, but, um, just

the way we, we, we had our, our, our, our, our, our, our income and that sort of stuff. Um, but, but I, I, I, I, I think, we never kind of looked at it that, you know, I mean, those things are all your job and mine is just the other stuff. And I think we certainly tried not to do that. You know, you probably

have to ask her that question in a sense and see what she says about that. At the same time, we did do some things together at times where it was just us as well. And, you know, there were you know, well, I guess our two oldest kids

were quite young. In fact, I think well, the youngest one might have just been a year or two. And at one point, I had gone to a leadership training course in Florida with a camping association that we were

working with at that point. And she flew down there at the end of that week and we spent four or five days in Florida together just the two of us. And we left, I mean, my parents were around and they were great grandparents to have. They looked after our two young girls at that time.

We just had two at that point. And, you know, so we did those kinds of things, right? I think at times we might have done more. It could have, maybe should have done more. But even the small things that you do, whether that's going for a walk or just out for dinner at some points or whatever. And I think, you know, it's just a matter of nurturing some of that. But I think part of it, too, is just making sure you view that, you know, your kids, for example, that's a team effort. you should be doing that together and so that's an important part of that it is interesting though

that you know uh i mean lived how many years now without without our kids in the home right and so it's a number of years and so yeah there's some there's some new growing that happens at that point as well yeah i'm so it's okay i'm so curious about that aspect because a lot of people do get caught up in the idea that it's about the trip to paris it's about the trip to paris it's about the trip to wherever it in New Zealand, wherever you want to go, that that is, that is the moment that you're going to be romantic. That's the moment you're going to treat the person, right? And you see it.

You see people thinking that that is where they need to be. But it does come down to they made you the cup of coffee. They made your lunch. They said hello to you. How was your day? They listened to whatever happened at work and they didn't rush you through it or try and get to the end of the conversation, turn on the TV, ignore what you had to say. it's about having those conversations and those are what over time build up to be the whole

relationship how you walk in the door maybe be 15 seconds but it's 15 seconds five days a week for three like for a whole year every year for however long you've worked that's a lot that's a huge part of your relationship what is what are those core components been like the making the breakfast the lunches the saying hello to each other after your long day at work what has that been And what can people learn from that? I don't know. You know, it's funny because when we first got married, we were in Edmonton, and I was working and she was working.

And in the first, our first, you know, month or so after we got married and we're getting back to going to work, and she had this image that she needed, or this idea that she needed to get up in the morning and prepare my lunch for me so that I, I could go to work. And she tried that for, I don't know, a few days or whatever it was. And finally, I looked at her and I said, you know, Marilyn, why don't you just let me do it myself? I'm much better at it in the morning than what you were.

And mornings aren't, you know, doing that sort of stuff in the morning wasn't her thing. And she's done a wonderful job, like all of those years. She did a wonderful job of always making sure that there was something for me that I was okay with to have for my lunch. And so I would make my lunch in the morning, but she never made it for me after that. Yeah. And so I don't know if that's, that's one of those kinds of things. But she did that job of making sure the stuff was there. There's no question about that.

I mean, there are times I contributed to it or whatever, but, but overall, you know, she, she did that. But making my lunch was the last thing I needed her to do because it took way longer for me to get out the door. If she made my lunch and if I did it myself. And so that very quickly, we resolved that one and it went on very well after that. That was great. Yeah. So, but I think, you know, for example, the years at the comfort in, the years that I worked there, and that was almost 18 years there, I, because our head office was in Toronto, and so they were three hours ahead. So by the time, if I got there at seven, they were already at 10 o'clock in the morning, and they were wondering, where the heck are you, right?

It's getting later in the day. You haven't been at work yet. No, I mean, they knew what, but there was that kind of, you know, the thing. but I think one of the things that I did every morning I would get up and have my most of the house wasn't up yet necessarily by the time I left and and and but I but for me I always went into the bedroom just as I was leaving and you know gave her the good morning kiss

and said okay I'm on my I'm on my way that was that was part of the regular routine just a little thing I don't know to me it was always important I always came and said goodbye to her as I was leaving on my way And, oh, she's done all kinds of stuff for me over the years that way as well, you know. There's all kinds of things. You know, I think during the years of the kids there, I'm just thinking whether there's anything specific. I mean, certainly her role in, and again, I'm not suggesting that that's her role. But during those years, the fact that preparing meal,

You know, just doing that for the family on an ongoing regular basis. She doesn't do nearly as much. She's not interested in doing nearly as much cooking today. And there are times where I think, well, you used to do it all the time. You don't want to do it anymore. Yeah, no, that's great. She doesn't want to do it anymore. So I get a little bit.

I have fun doing it. And, you know, we do a lot more of it together today much differently than what we did at that time. But that was what she did. It was a contribution she made. And that was a, I mean, I guess I, I, I valued. that over those years because it wasn't something that I did very easily because I was coming home and she'd been at home with the kids and she she would yeah what else what other specific little things that she would do just gave we I think we gave each other space to be who we

were yeah that's one thing that makes me really disappoint like it concerns me a little bit because we do have this hesitation with saying that that was her role in your family and we get hesitant on whether or not that's something that's appropriate to say or are we saying that about all women and that's a that's a frustrating thing that we're in right now because I think that there is a lot of growth in what we're saying women are capable of doing which is great and incredibly important but at the same time when we talk about our own families there's still this well like my partner regularly makes our dinners as well and but is that all women like there's this idea that when you say it you might be meaning all women and that's never the position that people

are coming from hopefully and for the most part people are reasonable and talking about their own family but that is one interesting thing that I didn't notice you were like well not all and like I get it but it's frustrating because that is your relationship and that was decisions you chose to make and one thing I wanted to ask about was what was it like making that decision to choose your children over the income because, again, a lot of people I know are choosing that income every single time. All my friends are very focused on their income and not about the family values. And I'm so proud of our community because I think that religion in our community has led to family values and trying to instill that into our community.

And I've seen a lot of that. I've grown up with a lot of great people whose parents have that mindset, but what is that like for you to kind of see this playing out? And what are your thoughts on the people who don't have those family values? And what, sorry, what was that? What was the experience like of making that decision? Yeah. Well, certainly we, I think we made the decision, you know, knowing full well that it had some implications. There were implications of it, which at times I've thought, yeah, I guess that is true. It didn't impact those things. For example, the ability of the kids to continue with education beyond high school,

where it starts to cost something, where there's financial decisions that have to be made, in them. How much of a loan do they take? How many years do they go to school? How big a loan do they want? And so there were those kinds of implications there. And there were times, I'll be very honest about that, there were times that I looked at other families where it had been, you know, both parents were working and drawing full incomes. And I looked at it and saw that, you know, their kids were able to go to school because they had a nice, you know, much, much bigger package of money to start with and whatever it didn't cost them nearly as much

and they were perhaps able to carry on education further than what my kids did. I don't know. I'm not sure whether they and there are times where that entered into the discussion with our kids at that point when the kids were going to university

and they were saying well I wish in a way I could go further but I don't know how much money I need I'm going to have to borrow do I want to do that or not. And so those discussions happened, I think, with each of the kids at some point. So that was part of that decision making. In terms of, you know, as much as we made that decision, I think I want to be careful

and make sure that I don't imply that, you know, that's the only decision that should be made. I think there are situations where there are other people that make other kinds of decisions where they both are going to be employed and are both working. And does that mean that you can't have a good family and solid values and all that sort of stuff? I don't think that's the case. For us, it was our choice.

You know, it was our decision to go that way. And I'm glad that we did. You know, Marilyn was typically at home when the kids came home from school. And we didn't have to arrange for care for them, but she was the one that was providing that care, particularly when they came home from school. And she will tell you today, and I think the kids would affirm that, that there were many times where that's when interesting conversations about what happened at the day at school and with friends or whatever it is that happened at that point. And she was the one that was there to hear them and to, you know, to work through them with the kids. I miss some of that.

I would get it sometimes afterwards. but I missed some of that and so she you know and well they have a good relationship with their mother because of that not saying I think their relationship with me is good as well but I think their relationship with her mother

is very good because of that because she was there and was able to work through those kinds of things with them and so I'm not sure if that answers exactly the question but that does and just to jump on that it doesn't feel like you made that decision like right when the child was born and then committed to it all the way to the end. It sounds like you reevaluated throughout what was reasonable, what was working and kind of

reflected on whether or not that was the right decision. And I think that that's where maturity comes in, where you're willing to look back on that decision and not just pretend that there wasn't difficult times and tough decisions that you were making between two very good goals to be home with the children but to have enough for university. That's a tough, that's a conversation every family should have. which is what is our priority here, and there were benefits to one and drawbacks to the other. Of course there's going to be.

Those are tough decisions that you have to make about your family, and it sounds like everything worked out well, and everybody's happy and healthy. And I think that that's so great to be able to talk about those decisions, because I think there's a lot of political pressure right now to have a certain viewpoint that both parents should be working, and it's a very difficult conversation to have right now. So I'm just grateful to have you on to be able to kind of discuss the decisions you actually made and not just discuss it in theory. And what was that like for the children now? Are they super happy with the decision? What were their thoughts? Because I'm sure you had a conversation later on of what was that like.

Yeah. In other words, when they look back at it now, how are they thinking that, you know, well, I think it would be fair to say. that there are times where the comments have been made that, yeah, I wish sometimes would have had a bit of, you know, that I could have gone further with some things. I think there are some of those. Those comments have been made at times. I don't think it's been, at least I haven't felt it in the sense that, oh, we really

failed as parents because we didn't do that. I don't think any of them would say that today because they also valued very much the fact that mom was home when they came home from school, for example. I think they've all said that, how much they valued that, and I think when I look at particularly the older two that have children that are now in school, they are very conscious about how they interact with their kids and how they look after their kids, particularly after school. And I'm not saying that they haven't used some care additional to, you know, because, they've both been, those two both are working to some extent, but they're, they're conscious of the fact that they want to be the ones that are parenting their children. And, and I think

that's, that's probably the critical piece, isn't it? That, that they're the ones that are conscious, that they're the ones that want to be making the, you know, doing the parenting for their kids. And I think that's kind of what we were saying as well. We wanted to be parenting our kids. And again, I'm not knocking daycares here. That's not what I'm saying at all. They provide a very valuable role. But to what degree do you want to be the one that's providing that parenting for your kids? And how do you manage that? How do you best make that happen? And so I think and that's probably something that comes from our culture in North America, probably more. You know, I think when you think of some, like the kids, a kid coming from Taiwan or China and going to school here, you know, and being in a different setting, that's, so there's different ways of parenting in different cultures.

But I think that's one that comes in North America or in our culture. It's probably more so. And I think when I think of it in terms of what I believe in my faith, that's where it, again, And my view is very much that I think as a parent, that's my, that's my role is to do the parenting. And so I guess I kind of believe that because of my faith as well. And I see that. Not that I'm going to, that means I'm brainwashing kids. That's not what I'm talking about here. But I'm just saying that's my role is to encourage them and to allow them to grow.

They've been my, they're a gift to me. That's, I mean, that's the biblical view, if you want to look at it that way. You know, that children are a gift to you. They're given to you by God to raise and to, and to nurture and to allow them to sprout and to grow and to become people that are also going to be doing the work that should be done. And so, so you have a responsibility to take that, to take that role and to do that. It's a very biblical kind of value as well there for me. Well, that's one thing that I do want to talk to you about a lot because I think that it isn't something I've touched on enough and maybe I've been the one touching on it and talking about religious values and where those come from too much where I'm not talking to people who actually hold those values. And the reason that it's so important that we hear from this is because your religious values have impacted your work at the Royal Hotel.

they've impacted the way you've risen your children, your family dynamics, how you've treated your partner, how you've interacted with vulnerable populations in the homeless communities, and it's overlapped with almost anything that's important to this podcast, role models, treating people properly, trying to be a pillar in the community. Your religious values have impacted that, and for me not to talk about that or to avoid that seems irresponsible because it is such an important part of, who you are and it is where you draw how you make decisions and I think that that is a valuable thing to hear from and not a strong man it or try and like avoid that topic in in a negative

way because it is something that helps shape you. Can you tell us a little bit about your religious values and where they come from what it's called? Yeah. Boy, that's a that's that's a huge and a big a big topic. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, the the church that a part of the Sardis Community Church, okay, over in Sardis there. And it's part of what is the Medanite Brethren of Churches in British Columbia, so it's a Mennonite Church. And that's the home church, or that's the home group of churches that I grew up in. I grew up in Yarrow, and that was the Medanite Brethren Church there.

But that's the church side of it. the values that come out of that is, I guess, where does one start with that? That's an interesting, because we could talk a long time about that. But basically what it is, is it, I think here's the way of putting it. It would look at the, get very religious here, but, okay, basically what it would look at is say that the life of Jesus that lived, you know, at the, at that, the point at which we used to call BC and AD, right? The life of Jesus is pivotal in the history, in the history of God's relationship with humanity.

It acknowledges that God is the creator of the world and of the, of people. And there was something that happened early on, and then there is this person of Jesus that comes along at that point in history. And after that, everything changes. And it's because Jesus is this guy that, for however he was born, we celebrate that with Christmas and whatever. But basically, he lived the life for three years, which is recorded in the Gospels, he lived more than three years. He lived the life of both 33 years. But three years of ministry, if you want to call it, of life which was public, where people interacted with him. And that's recorded primarily in the Gospels.

And he lived out for three years. And at the end of it, basically the culture that he lived in was so mad at him. The religious culture was so mad at him that they convinced the Romans that they should do what the Romans did with many people. They crucified and they put them on a cross. And the Romans were known for doing that, right? And so they convinced them that they should be doing that with this guy as well. So that was after three years of, so he must have really done something over three years. And if you, and then, so they crucified him.

They stuck them in a, in a cave, in a tomb. And the information, the information, the story, the gospel stories, the evidence from people that lived and were there at the time is that three days later, he showed up in different settings. And he was no longer dead. but there was something different about him that had changed. So that kind of pivotal kind of thing is there in history. And that forms a basis for me. That says that there's now a hope which is much different than that there's going to be something different coming down the road than what we've experienced, where relationships are going to be changed, where this world is going to be changed, the environment's going to be changed.

There's a renewal, and there's something else that's coming down the road. And this isn't a pie in the sky kind of thing. It's something that is beginning to happen today and is happening already. And so with that pivotal change that's occurred, there's an infusion of something different into the world. The religious word is that there's the spirit. There's an infusion of something else that's come into the world, and in particular, into people that acknowledge it and recognize it. And I guess I've seen that. I've dealt with that.

I've reckoned with that in my own life. And that's what's, that's what's, if the word is right to say, that's what changed me. Because the experience of that goes way back as a 9, 10 year old, grew up in an environment, but as a 9, 10 year old. But that's been an ongoing kind of process of understanding what does that change mean? How is that recreating? How is that renewing me, the world that's it? I live in and all the people around me, the relationships that I'm in, that's the, so that's kind of what forms the foundation of that. And it comes to, you know, taking a look at this

guy by the name of Jesus that lived at that point. And quite frankly, if you read what he says and what he did, it's just getting off and look like a sermon, and I don't want, that's not what I'm trying to do. But if you read what he said, the guy's either lunatic or it's true. Because it's not that he's just a good teacher. Because if he's just a good teacher, he says way too many things that only a lunatic would say as a teacher. And so you have to look at it from that perspective. And that's what I've had to do.

I've had to look at it. And I've struggled with it at times, to be very honest. There are times when I wondered, what am I doing with this thinking? Because it doesn't make sense. And then at other times I've read something. Yeah, man, that's where it's at. And I'm beginning to see, to experience that. And at times I've experienced it differently than I have at other times.

And so it's an ongoing journey. It's not something that's, you know, there's something that happens at some point, but it's an ongoing kind of thing. And anyway, but that's kind of the foundation of it. That's what it is that there's more than what just presents here, you know, and it's, that's what I believe. That's what I've seen. And so that that infusion from,

of whatever comes into, it comes into us in the spirit that works in the world is, and it works in people that acknowledge it. And there are times when I see, when I acknowledge it and deal with it and other times and it's it's just, I haven't, I'm apart from it. But it's a, it's just something that just keeps moving you. And it's an acknowledgement. And I don't know of, I don't know if that's a good explanation for it. But it's, that is.

it does lead me into something that I wanted to talk about, and I had mentioned to you before, which was that I think that one of the big problems that I ran into growing up was that there are these people who have established that that didn't happen, and if you believe that you're unreasonable, and what's kind of caused, what's kind of happened is that I don't hear anybody ever talk about the religious views unless they're atheists, and unless they don't believe anything, and then they're allowed to talk and even with this, people might call it a religious podcast and that's something I'm going to have to grapple with, which I'm fine with because I want to take the discussion seriously and I want to stop sidelining it and stop avoiding it.

I want to hear the best experiences and when you're saying that this has impacted your whole being to avoid it and not to talk about it is again irresponsible. But on top of that, I hear comments about Chilliwack, about my community, about Abbotsford, which is that we're just a Bible Belt, that we're stuck, that we're not moving forward, we're not progressive, we're just conservatives, and we're just going to stay that way. But there's a whole story underneath that that deserves so much more respect than any of my peers give credit to, which is that you grapple with it, you come back to it. It's not like at 10 years old you chose to become religious, and then you've just been stuck that way

ever since. It's been something you've worked through and to treat anyone the way I once did, which was, like you've heard, brainwashed and those types of things. That's a misrepresentation of what's going on. People who are religious, who I actually talk to, are educated and work hard to keep connected with their religion. They're reading the books. They're trying to understand. They're thinking about it. They haven't come to a conclusive decision sometimes. Sometimes they get pulled away from it. Sometimes they get pulled towards it. And it is a whole process of somebody who's being awake and reflecting and thinking, well, I didn't treat this person very well.

What is my faith tell me that I should, how should I have approached this? And that reflection tells me that person isn't brainwashed. They're reflective, they're thinking, they're putting in work, they're trying to be an outstanding part of the community. And more recently, I've realized that I'm lucky to live in a community,

even though I don't have a religious affiliation with a specific church. I'm lucky to live in a community with people who have a belief, who reflect on their belief, and work through it and try and bring that to their community and try and let that manifest in pianos, in treating people properly, in trying to be a part of community organizations, is that is something that religious people can bring to the table. And that's why I think this conversation is so important. It's because that is underlying the great role models of Chilliwack is that most of them have a religious connection. And I have to treat that with respect and dignity of that

you're not just brainwashed. You are thinking these things through. You are pondering what these stories mean and how to interpret them properly. So please tell us more about what it is like to be part of that church and what it's like to see other churches, because that's where I don't get to hear from people. Usually someone has a belief, but I never get to hear about their thoughts on other belief systems. So have you ever had to interact with another belief? Oh, I think, yes, certainly.

And more broadly at some points than at other points, I would say, you know, just in, you Before we speak to that specifically, but I think one of the things that I would want to make sure is clear is that, and I think, you know, one of the statements that Jesus makes is that he says, look, this is the way people are going to know that you're my followers, and that's if you love one another, and you love the world around and the people around you. And that's really what it boils down to. And I guess, so I guess I would just say, I, I, I lament the times where, you know, you get the letter in the, in the paper or something like that, where, where somebody on the basis of their, their beliefs or whatever is, is, is, is, uh, putting somebody else down and, and, and, and treating with this respect, somebody else who, with whom they disagree or, or, you know, it's a, a perspective. that they seem to think is inappropriate lifestyle or whatever it is, you know, those kinds of things. I lament that because the call that comes from God that comes from Jesus, and I'll say it in those words,

the call that comes there is that, you know, the famous verse is that God so loved the world that he gave his only son, And so if that's how much he loved, I have no choice but to do the same. And so when there's disrespect and, you know, rudeness and all those kinds of things that are being thrown around out there in the name of religion, that's hurtful. It's very hurtful. I mean, it's hurtful to me. It's just the wrong way.

And there are times when I wanted to write a letter as well, and it probably would have been the same thing. In fact, one time I had one letter and I sent it to my good friend and he says, Len, don't send that. And I thanked them so much for saying that, you know, because that's just not the way to do it. That's not the mark of people who have followed Jesus, who have taken that position. That's not the mark. The mark is that it should be the things of supporting other people and of loving and of caring and of walking alongside and finding ways and solutions to make things different and better.

I'll just give one little example, the church, the SARS Community Church that we're at, that we've been part of since 1980 for many years, but they have a program called Doorway, and it's run for, I don't know how many years now, but one of the ladies from the church started, it's actually a separate program, but it's there for single moms who are who are having a basically single moms. I don't think they're involved. But they run,

for single moms, it's one day a week during the school year. And they run this program for single moms to come in and just get a morning out. And the moms can do almost anything they want, I think. But they have all kinds, they have programs parenting, single mom parenting,

financial supports and, and all kinds of stuff that they're doing, they're doing there. And they, and they do that one day a week. And, that it's been on so many single mums, and they come from all over there in the community.

They limit the number of people that can be there. But they've been doing this for a number of years, and the changes that have occurred in a lot of those moms and their kids as well. There's all kinds of volunteers working with the kids, and there's probably more volunteers than there are people there otherwise. But it's just an example of just saying, look, we have to care for what's around us in the community,

and we have to work with that. And there's no strings attached to anything. It's just a question of common. You know, if you need mail. Your question, though, on terms of other faiths and other beliefs. So this speaks to some people within that. My experience with people of other religious traditions, you know, whether you're talking about Islam or whatever it is, is probably fairly limited. It's not extensive by any means.

But I have at times, I had, you know, employees that are of different faiths or whatever that have worked with me. And I found it very invigorating at times, depending on who it is, to the degree of having the discussion. And I don't mean by that in having a negative discussion or a confrontational kind of thing. Although that might happen at some point, I don't recall whatever happening. But I remember one lady that worked with me for a while, and she was from Pakistan. And just a wonderful lady. I mean, and she was as committed to her faith and, you know, as Islam. And she's just a fine, just a fine lady.

And his children, just so beautiful family, you know, a neat family got to know some of them and met her from time to time over the years. And just to meet people, I don't know where to go with that. I didn't say that, you know what, I just like her as a person. And she's a good person. And I'm not going to make those decisions at the end. You know, at the end of time when all of this stuff,

and you know, talk about whatever is going to happen to the world, how it ends or whatever and what the resurrection and all those kinds of things are going to look like. I don't know all the answers to that, but I don't know how that's going to go, but I know that again, I'll come back to the fact that as I see it, there's a

loving God there and he's created this, the humanity and the world that we live in, he's created the humanity and he wants nothing more than to enjoy their relationship together with them. And so how he's going to deal with

the people of other faiths and other races or faiths or other ways of things, I don't, I don't know. All I know is that he's pretty trustworthy. Yeah. So, so that's kind of the, that's kind of the way I've approached that. And I enjoy the interaction, you know. So for my experience, I don't know if you've heard, but I've been doing the Jordan Peterson biblical series. And so he goes through Adam and he even talking about the psychological effects of it. And so I've been really trying to get into understanding it better.

And so for the, I think I've already talked about this, but the Kane and Abel story is so interesting because it is true in like not a literal sense. It's true that there's always two brothers, whether it's like Thor and Loki from the Avengers. Like there's always two people and they have two different mindsets and there's a cane mindset of wanting, of not making the right sacrifices and being at the, mad at the world for that. And I see a lot of people mad at the world for how things are. And a lot of anti-human rhetoric of wouldn't it be better if humans just weren't here anymore? Wouldn't like,

the health of the earth be better? And it's like, you don't, what you're missing is the value of a person. And the fact that that person can choose from right and wrong and improve everything around them until the day they die or make everything worse. And so that's true, whether or not I'm religious or not, that is the case that some people have these negative mindsets. And then there's the person who's willing to make sacrifices, give back to the community, and that's able. So even if you're not religious, you can still pull a lot of knowledge and a lot of ability to move forward in the world better because of these stories. And that's where I've started. So I've finished the biblical series, but I'm still hungry for more because it proved to me that all of my comments

about religion were wrong. They were unfounded because there was a depth to the story. that I had never thought about. I'd never thought about Harry Potter and the impacts of the biblical series on J.K. Rowling, who wrote the stories, who saw these types of relationships. Like, I know so many people who say they aren't religious. And then they love the Avengers movies. And it's like, you don't think these people are making sacri-like, you don't think they're reliving these original stories in some form or another. Pinocchio is another one where this person wishes his son to be a real boy. And the fairy says to be a real boy, to be a real person, you have to make the right sacrifices, you have to treat other people while you have to be a good person, you have to know the difference between right and wrong to be a good boy.

And then he goes off and he makes a bunch of mistakes and he handles things wrong and he doesn't listen to his conscience, which is a cricket. And so realizing that the stories are there, I enjoyed the stories without realizing it. And so to say that you're not religious when you're enjoying the Avengers, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, all of those movies is just silly because the story is rooted in the original stories, the archetypal stories of how these things are. And so that's where I've been able to humble myself and then look at the newspaper and be frustrated because a lot of people aren't taking these conversations seriously anymore. And a lot of people have just done away with religion and basically say they're all the same. I disagree with all of them. And it's like, you haven't even read the stories yet. You don't even realize the depth.

What is that like for you to live in a community where we do have a strong religious population, but we do have a small minority of people who have probably never read read any of the books, have no understanding where you're coming from, a person who's just trying to uphold his community. What is that like for you to see? I guess what I would add is that I believe you treat these people who you disagree with on this issue. you treat them with respect, but what I see out of the newspaper is or out of any publication is less and less respect for where you're coming from. And that's what concerns me is the lack of respect on the other side of the issue. Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's true. And I find that, I mean, there are times where I find it disappointing. I often feel like, you know, I wish I could challenge somebody to just, you know, take a look and read something. I have one good friend that, that, not a stupid person, very, very intelligent person. And, and, and, I, you know, claims to be an atheist, whatever, whatever. And so there's this, you know, bantering back and forth at times with regards to stuff. But my concern at some points is that, and this person has done some reading, you know, But there's some really interesting and very profound reading that can be done, and you can educate yourself to it.

And, you know, like you said, some people just haven't, some people just haven't looked at it. And it bothers me when they're, you know, it disappoints me, I guess, when I feel like they're, they're just not prepared to even read what could be there. And in fact, in one case, I said to one person, I said, look, I don't even care whether you believe this book or believe what's written in this. book or not, but you're intelligent enough to point out some of its errors if indeed there are some. So I'd like you to read it just to get back to me on that so that I can deal with that. So that's that's the one side of it. The other one, and that is that when in the going back into church history here, looking particularly at the, you know, the first and second century or whatever after, you know, in those years just after Jesus was on this earth and then left, or, you know, it's no longer seen.

But if you look at the way that that church exploded or exploded or what, but distributed through, particularly around the Mediterranean and then even eventually beyond that, and who knows exactly how far, because you'll find, you know, Christians from way back there in India and you'll find, you know, where that have roots from those years. But they, rather than, they, how shall I put it, they worked at the fringes of society as opposed to trying to change what Constantine did by making it Christendom, right, where it became the state religion. And they worked at the fringes. And that's where the huge impact on society came from by working on the fringes. And so I guess sometimes when I see some of these kinds of things, And this is where my one friend has been very influential to me. There are times where, because I've been involved on the BIA board and I was on the tourism board for many years.

And so I've been at the seat of some things where there was ability to influence some things in the community. And I'm not talking about religious faith here. I'm just talking about, but I've been involved in that. And so there's times when I feel like, well, you know, we should we should just make those kinds of statements publicly or whatever it is. And his question often to me is, well, okay, does that really make that much difference? Or does it make more difference if you and I or if I become involved with the stuff that's happening around the outside, the fringes of the stuff or in one-on-one ways and we interact at that level? And where's the greater impact?

And so, I don't know if that kind of answers your question. So there are times where, you know, I don't think we're in a world which is very different than the Constantinian Christendom. You know, like we're post-Christian in that sense. And I think it's much better. because I think the influence that people who are part of the work of the church or the kind of thing that Jesus asked us to do, that if you participate in that, you don't need to be in the halls of power to make that happen.

In fact, you're probably better off at making that stuff really happen if you're not in the walls of power. Yeah. If that makes sense. That does make sense. So, yeah. So, yeah, so I don't know. So when you're coming across these people who I'm just more focused on what happens

when you have to read something that's so blatantly disrespectful to your values and where you're not, like, as you've said on this podcast, you're not here to push them on other people. You're not here to force people to agree with what you're saying. But it's that respect of you have a belief and we should let people have their beliefs. That's where I see there's a huge movement to try and just unreligiousize people in some sort of way where it's being put so blatantly on papers that say like religion is a bad idea. And if we just stopped having these religious people with these ideas, then everything would just be perfect. And that's what frustrates me when I'm reading it.

even as a person who doesn't identify with the faith, it's like, you're not treating this issue with credence and respect. Yeah. And I think, I think that's a, that's, I'm going to use the word, that's an ignorant response. And I don't mean that as a, derogatory. Yeah. Yeah. But it's, but it's, it's just an ignorant response that doesn't, it doesn't recognize what, what people of faith are doing in your community. you look at the work

the kind of thing the Salvation Army does and they're people of faith I'll tell you and they are they are involved and they're doing an incredible kinds of stuff

you look at the stuff that Ruth and Naomi's doing I mean and again where's the root of that I mean boy that was the root of it is in faith and then like the program I mentioned at our church and that's just that's just a few of them

And, you know, the community is replete with that. I know in, I don't know what the name of the program is, but in Abbotsford, there's a, there's a program from one of the, one of the churches that, that is, that's working with the street worker, the prostitutes or, you know, the people on the street. And it's a, it's a, it's a, no strings attached kind of, kind of program of service, you know. that they're doing and they're working with them, but they're just knowing that these are people that are looking for something different. You know, there's the, what they call it, the Adelton and Teen Challenge program that's in Yarrow for drug use.

I don't know if you're familiar with that one. It's in Yarrow on Eckerd Road there, Akers Street. And they're dealing, they're working with, like it comes out of a program that started many years ago in Bronx and New York. But I mean, Wilkinson, I forget his first name. But anyway, but it's Adelton Teen Challenge. And there's no government funding coming to it at all.

It's all just paid by either people that are attending the program or churches or whatever responding. And they have an men's center in Yarrow, and they've got a women's center in Abbotsford. And boy, you listen to the stories of those women and those men telling their stories of their drug, you know, how they've been just bound by the drug stuff. and how they've found something different, how they've released and not perfect, not everybody makes it, but they're incredible. But I'm just saying that it, it, it, those kinds of things are all over in the community, and the churches, the churches are doing, are, are involved in that.

And so, yeah, at some points, it's, it's, it's ignorance to, of, of just not knowing of what, what is really happening and and yeah it's unfortunate i read it sometimes too and then i figured forget it don't read it don't read it it's too it could be you know it annoys me sometimes i wish these people would but the question is how do you how are you how are you going to address it how are you going to address it because if somebody's you know if somebody's already got their mind made up you know what's the comment something about if i change your opinion against your will you're of the same opinion still yes yeah right absolutely And so unless the person is experiencing it and sees it firsthand and is part of it, you know, it's really hard to.

And so, you know, there's lots enough to do. Just go and do it. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think of the, if I can, just that one little story of that fellow, remember a couple of years ago, there was a fellow that in the paper because he had painted over some graffiti in the tunnel, you know, under the railway. there was offensive graffiti or whatever it was, racist kind of stuff. And do you remember the story? And I think he eventually got deported back to the UK because he had grown, he'd been a very white supremacist kind of person in the UK.

And then when his child was born, he'd been in the hospital. And his wife was, or his partner was encountering some major difficulties. And the people that looked after his wife were not white. And at first he was offended by it. And then when he saw the care and the way they looked after her and everything that happened, it turned his life around. It changed his perspective. And when he came here and he said, that's why I'm doing this because I'm no longer that guy that was that. Now, unfortunately, I think he was, I don't know whether he was deported back to the UK or not because of something, I don't know, some unfinished stuff there.

But anyway, when you experience something like that, that's when it can change. change you, right? Yeah. And so as a person of that faith, my kind of way of looking at it is, and like I say, my good friend encourages me in that, that, you know what, just work with the one-on-one, you know, those kinds of situations where you are so that people can experience it. Because if you challenge the story in the newspaper or whatever it is, some people will be convinced, but most of them are going to, they're of the same opinion still. Well, and that's why I like this as a platform to be able to go over these things when people do have a religious substructure that they operate with is because that is a part of who you are. For me to avoid that

question again would be unfair to you because that does influence your decisions. And so that's why I want to make sure that that is a part of what I respect and make sure that you have the opportunity to tell your experience. Because as you've said, you're not trying to sell anything. You're not trying to convince other people of anything. But this is who you are. And that's what the podcast is about who you are and how did you get here. And that's one of the components I think is important. So, appreciate that. Absolutely. So the last thing I want to talk a little bit about is Garrison Running Coe and your running experience. Because when I worked at the hotel, you were always finishing a run or about to go for a run. And I started thereafter. I think I did my first

half marathon after I had worked at the hotel with you. And so that is something that you kind of showed me when I was there was a little bit more about running, and that was always a part of what you were, you've been up to. And then this morning, I did Mount Tom and you went for a trail run, I think. So let's talk about it. Oh, well, Garrison Running Co is a good, great place as far as that goes. I mean, Janet, the owner of the places, I mean, she's coordinated the run for water for years. And, uh, and, uh, she knows the running industry. She's, she's a runner herself and has done some incredible running over the years. And so she can, if you need, If you need to know what you need, she can certainly speak to it from a lot of good experience.

And, yeah, good place. I mean, I bought some shoes there, and they've been just so supportive with the, I also sit on the, around the lake trail race society. That's the 30K around, called us Lake trail race. That's, pardon me, supposed to happen in October, but it's not happening this year because of COVID. But she's been very supportive of that. she's been involved with it as well, coordinating a bunch of it.

But the running coal has been, Garrison Running Coal has been very much a part of that too. Yeah. And, but yeah, that great, you know, good, good store, good, good place to get that in sort of information. Awesome. And what is your running experience been like? Well, you know, actually, I've, I, I, I, I've had injury in a knee, or I've had some knee damage. And so I've, for about a year and a half, I didn't run at all. And I've been back to running just one day a week at this point. And it's my wonderful time of running trails on Saturday mornings like it was this morning. And Aaron, a good two hour run, exfoliates the soul.

That's my, that's my line. Two hours. Two hours. Well, about 11K this morning. Wow. We're out for two hours and probably both, what, 600 meters of elevation or something like 600 meters? Yeah, probably six, seven meters. and 100 meters of elevation or whatever.

So it's out for two hours. It's a wonderful time. It's a great time. I mean, it's a camaraderie with other people as well. But yeah, it's great. I've been doing that running, well, I've run that, I don't know for how many years, but it's been the last year now that I've been back just one day, one day a week. And that's because my knee is, I want to keep my knee for a few more years.

And so as long as I can do one day a week in a couple of hours, And I was going to run the run for water back in spring. And of course, that's canceled. That was got canceled. There's a 10, like on Sumas Mountain, there's a trail run on, back in May, end of May. And that was canceled. But there's a 10K trail run there. I was going to do that this year.

And then I might have done the, around the lake, just the relay part. There's a, like it's a 30K race, but you can do it as a relay. It makes out between 16 and 14 or something like that. And I was probably going to, I was hoping to run one of the legs, but basically the race isn't happening this year. So because of COVID. But yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's good for the, it's good for the heart. It's, it's, it's really good for the head as well, because some good hard workout like that is really good. And, and, yeah, I love it.

I love it. It's, I don't know, it'll be a, that year and a half that I didn't run. That was not a fun year in that sense. That's so unfortunate because that was such a huge part of each day. When I'd come to work, you'd either finished one or you were heading on one and you were very focused on doing it then. And you were involved with the run for water back then as well. And I think that that's so awesome because that is how you've been throughout this whole podcast, which is community involvement, connecting people and trying to put forward really good ideas.

Yeah. Yeah, it's been good. And it certainly has done you good too. You know, I, you know, just, you, you, you, you were pretty soft and round when you came to the hotel. You look, you look a whole site different at this point. And that's good. That's good. I don't know what inspired you, whether it was some of that or whatever.

But I know that didn't, I know you did back then. You already started some different stuff, some training and stuff. Yeah, when I started at the hotel, I was probably like 220. Is that right? Yeah, something like that. Wow. All fat, no muscle, not an ounce of muscle on me. And, yeah, over that time, you even.

You even noticed it when I had given my resignation, I was like, oh, like I'm leaving and you're like, well, like one of the biggest changes has been your absolute appearance because I had to change, I don't know how many times over that year, my dress shirts and have to buy new ones because I kept changing size and I kept getting smaller and smaller. So, yeah, that was something you definitely influenced me on because I think you invited me on the run for water back when it was going on. And I think I said no, but because it was like 30 kilometers or 15 kilometers, which I was nowhere near. But yeah, I was so grateful to have you on and have the opportunity to talk about these issues, to talk about the Royal Hotel, which I do think is incredibly important. I'm so grateful to have had you on. Well, thank you. It's been my pleasure. Well, I hope we, you know, I will just say one more thing, if I may.

Remember I said to you a long time ago when you started there, when we were talking politics at one point and you'd help somebody? I said, the only thing I know with is that someday I'm probably going to have to make a decision. but whether I vote for you. You haven't decided that yet. You do not have to worry about that. I have no political plans in my future. I think this is where I like to be just because the hard part about politics is they're complex issues and people want sound bite answers. I'd much rather have long-form discussions on the issue than ever try and simplify one side or the other.

Well, my comment would just be there and you bring a lot to the table and you've been working very hard at doing that. And so just continue to do that. Blessings on you. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on. My pleasure. You know, I'm going to be able to be.

Thank you.