Nuanced. - 116. Roy Ratnavel: From Prisoner to Executive - The Power of Resilience

Episode Date: July 4, 2023

Imagine being imprisoned at just 17 years old in a Sri Lanka prison camp and then miraculously finding your way to Canada, where you'd go on to become a successful executive. That's the incr...edible story of Roy Ratnavel, author of Prisoner Number 1056, who joins Aaron in this deeply inspiring conversation. Aaron Pete and Roy Ratnavel explore the importance of hard work, resilience, and staying true to one's values, as Roy shares his remarkable journey that highlights the power of hope and humanity even in the darkest situations.Together, Roy and Aaron discuss the challenges of populism, the strife and war that erupted in Sri Lanka, and the key message that people must see each other as humans and focus on our shared bonds. Roy reflects on his experiences in Canada, the kindness of strangers that touched his heart, and the importance of work-life balance, differentiating oneself in a competitive environment, and continuously striving for improvement. His story serves as a potent reminder of the potential for growth and success in the face of adversity.As the two wrap up our conversation, Roy shares his lessons in gratitude, balance, and recognizing the opportunities afforded to us in a free country. The endorsement of his book by Prime Minister Brian Mulrooney brings Roy's journey full circle, further solidifying the impact of his experiences on his outlook on life and the world around him.Send us a textThe "What's Going On?" PodcastThink casual, relatable discussions like you'd overhear in a barbershop....Listen on: Apple Podcasts   SpotifySupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger Than Me podcast. Here is your host, Aaron P. My podcast guest today is the author of Prisoner Number 1056. At the age of 17, he is put into a prison camp in Sri Lanka. Miraculous events had to take place for him to end up in Canada. With values instilled from his father, he ends up working in the mailroom in Canada and works his way all the way up to the executive suite. In our conversation, we discuss why Canada is an amazing.
Starting point is 00:00:30 in place to live, the values of being a Canadian, and his book, Prisoner Number 1056. My guest today is Roy Ratnaval. Roy, it is such an honor to sit down with you today. It's rare that I have the pleasure of sitting down with someone I would say is of principle, somebody who has true values that they live by every day and that they hold true to them. Would you mind introducing yourself for listeners who might not have heard of you? Okay, sure. Thanks, Aaron. Thanks for having me. My son's name is Aaron, so I'm already very fond of you.
Starting point is 00:01:05 Yeah, now, where do I begin? So let me start from saying that I was born in a small island nation called Sri Lanka, which is to give some perspective for your audience. It's a small independent island nation to south coast of India. And the country was a former British colony in 1948, got independence. And then since then there's an ethnic strife between the minority Tamils and the majority Singhalese, which led to a war that peaked around 87 is during when I was rounded up by the government soldiers only for being the guilty of being a Tamil. At the age of 17, I was sent to prison where I spent numerous months being tortured. And then once I miraculously released from the prison, my father decided that there's no future for a Tamil young boy like me in that country and send me away to Canada at the age of 18 when I arrived here on April 18, 1988, at the age of 18 with 50 bucks in my pocket,
Starting point is 00:02:19 not knowing anyone in this country. And that's how I started my life. Eventually found myself on a Bay Street farm, which I'm sitting here right now, at the age of 19 in the mailroom. I was the 25th employee, and today I'm the executive for a company overseeing the Canadian business. You have a remarkable story. I'm wondering if we could perhaps start with populism. You make comments towards it in the beginning of your book, Prisoner 1056. I'm wondering if we can talk a little bit about how the strife came about.
Starting point is 00:02:54 out? In Sri Lanka? Yes. Yeah. So the, the Tamils are the minority. I'm a Tamil, and Tamils are predominantly Hindus. And the Singhalese is the other language culture, predominantly Buddhist. And the Buddhist nationalism driven by the majority of people felt threatened by the Tamil minority and it became a fodder for politicians to divide and rule by making laws that eventually discriminate Tamils from achieving education, business opportunities or job opportunities of the government. So in 1956, they enacted the law called Singular only, which means that you have to learn Singlese language to be able to be employed in any government jobs. And that's how it got started and it was all driven by populism.
Starting point is 00:04:04 And over time, that pushed the Tamils into poverty and lack of opportunities. And also they started making laws where they will restrict Tamil students from entering university, further curtailing the Tamil progress in that country. And as they say, when you have a whole bunch of young people with no opportunities that leads to strife, and so many young women and men were unemployed, no future. So what do they do? They organize and fight against the government. That's so the war got started, and it lasted for 30 years and consumed thousands of lives.
Starting point is 00:04:49 and expelled so many millions out of Sri Lanka, brain drain, lives lost. And the sad part is this is how so sad about this, is that in 1948, when Sri Lanka got its independence, it was considered to be the post-colonial nation most likely to succeed economically and democratically. Unfortunately, since then, Sri Lanka was ruled by leaders with penchant for racial hatred and bigotry. Through their hate, they have destroyed that country. And the reality is that can happen anywhere. It's not Sri Lanka alone. I mean, you could see it now around the globe where people are leaning towards populism, whether it's right or left. I'm not taking one side or the other.
Starting point is 00:05:43 I think when you start playing this kind of games for political gains, you essentially destroy a country, a society, and destroy hope. And you create strife. And one of the reasons I want to write the book is to really talk about that at the end part of it, is to really give a warning shot for people to really be watchful for that type of rhetoric and language and where people or politicians mainly can divide people to create us and them scenarios. And so my message really is Aaron is that I think that we need to pay, instead of paying
Starting point is 00:06:29 attention to the past divisions, we need to pay attention to our present bonds. And the bond being that human beings have more in common than difference, regardless of whether you are from, I mean, the fact that you found me, even though we never met before but you found there is some bond that you could resonate and there's a story that you can get behind. And I think that's what makes humanity beautiful. Once you start seeing people as humans and then all the walls come down. And I think maybe it's a more naive thought on my side, But I've seen destruction and despair, but within that, I also see humanity in it. And the reason I'm alive today is because there's one human thought that I should be given a chance to survive when my friends all died.
Starting point is 00:07:24 I couldn't agree more that I think that there are synergies between stories and there's a lot that we can take away. As an indigenous person, I look at the immigrant story, what people have to overcome to find success in Canada. and I see a lot of the same messaging needed for indigenous communities. I see the value of saying, you know what, you're absolutely right. Terrible atrocities were committed in Canada, wrongs that no one could ever justify. But the success you see in your life today, it will be as large consequence of the decisions you make and the actions you make in your own life. And no government, no other authority will ever be able to fill those gaps on your behalf
Starting point is 00:08:05 and fix your problems better than you could yourself. and give you a direction brighter than you can look for yourself. And that's what I found so inspiring about how you communicate this, is you said you weren't looking for handouts. You weren't looking for charity. You weren't looking for anybody else. You were willing to do this by your own efforts and put yourself forward. There's one comment I want to dive a little bit more into, though.
Starting point is 00:08:28 And you use the word miracle. And I find that somewhat unique because it's not a word you hear very often. Would you mind talking a little bit about the miracle that happened that allowed you to end up Canada. Yeah, I was in prison for over two months, and the communication between North, where my parents were the South, where I was kept, was already bad, even the best of times. And so during the war, it was completely disconnected. So my worry was seeing my friends dying in front of me or hearing them screaming and dying. I just didn't want to end up that way. And I thought I really need to get the message out outside of the prison wall to let somebody who would care about this kid named Roy Rattenville, 17-year-old boy, to come and save me.
Starting point is 00:09:23 And as I was contemplating this, the then defense minister's wife was coming to visit the prisoners. So it's more like photo op, you know, so they can put it on national teeth. and show everybody how human they are and all that stuff. So she came in and, you know, I have always believed that if you relinquish your responsibility for your life to someone else tacitly, as you just made a point about it. Like, you have to control your own destiny at some point. And I just figured that if I sat there eventually going to die, so I'm going to just
Starting point is 00:10:04 go and take a chance at this. And so I was able to get an audience with her one-on-one, and I was able to speak her language a little bit. She also spoke English a little bit, so we were able to communicate somewhat. And my father had a very good friend who was a colonel, who was fighting against my people, believe it or not. But he was a colonel. His job is to defend the country, so I don't blame him for his role in this conflict. I remembered his phone number. For what other reason when I was a kid, I remembered his home phone number.
Starting point is 00:10:42 I have not seen him in 10 years, and we used to be very good friends, but because of the war, we got separated. So I gave my phone number to this lady and said, this is my uncle, we used to call him Uncle Fernando. His name is Colonel Fernando. And I'm not an insurgent. I'm an innocent kid. And she said, okay. And then she left with the number. And at the time, I would have put zero possibility that she would ever try to contact him because, to me, people do things over on camera, but they'd never do anything right behind the camera.
Starting point is 00:11:17 So I didn't have that kind of positive, I had a jaded view of the world at the time. But guess what? Two days later, this gentleman showed up in his military outfit and gave me a big hug and took me away and took me to his home and looked after me until my father showed up to take. me from there. So that's the point that I make. It's he didn't see me as an enemy. He saw me as his best friend's son. And that's what I say. There's hope in humanity. When you start, take the walls down and see people for who they are and there's more in common with people than differences. That is incredible. You get released and then it sounds like it's a journey to Canada. Can you talk about that journey to Canada?
Starting point is 00:12:06 Is this something on your mind that's exciting you? Do you have hope as a consequence? You talk a lot about how when you were in prison, there was no hope. And so when you're in this circumstance, are you starting to be optimistic? How are you feeling? Yeah. So, you know, when you see the gentleman who came and saved me, that certainly started turning my view on the world. It's not, you know, there are people like Uncle Fernando in the world.
Starting point is 00:12:33 Maybe there is hope for humanity, you see. And then my father wrote a letter to the Canadian High Commission in Colombo, Sri Lanka, which is the capital. And I've got a reply from the Canadian government saying, they're willing to hear my case. And at this time, it's 1988. So Brian Mulroney was the prime minister who had an immigration policy that really catered to conflict zones where he wanted to make sure that people who are directly affected by the wars will have a say in coming to Canada, which was very generous of his government at the time.
Starting point is 00:13:14 So my father wrote a prolific letter. He's a great writer to the Canadian High Commission, and we got a chance to have an interview with a gentleman named Robert Orr. I never forgotten his name. I was a young immigration officer, took me to his office, and he was very keen, he was asking all the questions, and he was doing his job because he wants to make sure that I'm legitimately someone who says what happened to me. It's not someone who was faking his way into Canada. He asked me for evidences of my torture so that he can actually believe the story, and I remember standing up in front of him and took my shirt off. and there was enough evidences on my body and then he asked me to put my shirt back on and then two or three weeks later we got a letter saying that you've been granted a visa to enter Canada that's a second opportunity to see the hope in humanity and then certainly I was very troubled because I always been under the watch of my parents
Starting point is 00:14:20 and I was still an 18-year-old boy. Here I am in a plane, never been out of the country flying through Amsterdam, trying to figure my way out of connections, and, you know, I'm not a season traveler. Finally ended up in Canada on April 19, 1988, so 35 years ago. And when I got off the plane, I saw two uniformed, well-built police officers at the customs desk. And, you know, someone like me who comes from a country where my members of my communities routinely tortured by people in uniforms, understandably, my heart was pounding and I was scared as a kid. And as I walked towards them and they were walking opposite to
Starting point is 00:15:12 me in the corridor, they merely looked at me and smiled and said, good afternoon. At that moment, I decided to become a Canadian. Because to me, that was shocking, that people in uniform is nice to other people. Because all I saw was batons and guns and beatings and stuff like that. So that gave me hope. And then, you know, fast forward to a few years later, meeting amazing Canadians who helped me, supported me, mentors, bosses, colleagues. nobody wins alone in this world, but you have to be able to, I always say to win in life, you've got to get out of your own way.
Starting point is 00:15:55 And because it's so easy to sit there and feel like a victim all the time. And I did that earlier on in my career, my life here in Canada, because what happened to me, you know, made me feel like the world owed me. And I can't transfer my trauma to others who have nothing to do with this conflict. And I was carrying this, this hate within me. And I, when I looked at them like there are some, someone should on the opposite side of my transaction owed me sympathy. And I, my father used to, he's such an amazing inspiration person to me.
Starting point is 00:16:39 He used to tell me, son, there are two types of problems in this world. Yours and everybody else's, you have to fix your own. And then the second one, I will never forget, is if you say you're a victim, you'll remain as one. If you ask for sympathy, you'll get sympathy. But sympathy never solved an issue. And so those lessons I learned, so I kind of said, you know, whatever I was trying to do wasn't helping me. So I have to change. You know, I believe though past events are unchangeable,
Starting point is 00:17:13 they can serve as an important lesson in overcoming struggles in life to strive for a better future. When we are no longer able to change a situation like I was in, we are challenged to change ourselves. So I decided what I was doing wasn't working. So why keep doing that? Let's try something different. Well, the difference is this. Humanity thrives on hope and optimism. And, and I say that even today as a 53-year-old man, because people think I'm being naive, but it's not. You have to have hope that you're going to win this battle, and you've got to have optimism. Because I never met a successful pessimist in my life, right? Because most optimistic people, you don't want to be overly optimistic. That's
Starting point is 00:18:05 delusional. But you can't be pessimistic because that's depressed. You need to be pragmatic, but you've got to be optimistic about the world. And so that's, you know, if I would sum it up, that's what I would say. It's interactions with things that I've seen over the years, and now I know what works and what doesn't work. I wish I knew that earlier on in the game, but I'm glad I learned somewhere in the late 20s and changed the path to my destiny. I think that's what's so fascinating is because I've heard some of the
Starting point is 00:18:40 the things you're talking about, but you're coming from a perspective that truly understands the darkest parts of people's hearts. You truly understand the worst in people. And yet to have any optimism, to have any hope is a testament to your character, but to the benefits of it, that it isn't naive when you know how dark things can be. And I think this is something that so many people lack because we do want to be understanding and empathetic and see people's perspectives almost. currently to a fault where we're not pushing people to take responsibility for their own lives.
Starting point is 00:19:15 I'm just curious where that came in. Were you in a circumstance where you saw it? I'm just thinking about people who get stuck in this mindset and can't seem to find a way out. What was the catalyst for you? I think the catalyst was when I got a job here in this firm in the mailroom, I was lucky enough to run into people who have seen what I have seen in World War II. So the gentleman who, it was a small privately held company. It was owned by a gentleman.
Starting point is 00:19:46 Now he passed away many years ago. So there was Robert McCrae. And Robert McRae was a World War II pilot. And he fought in WW2. And his good friend, Adele Bud, who was also working at CIA because he hired his friend. And I see these two gentlemen, they were much older than me. So just so give a perspective. I was 19.
Starting point is 00:20:08 They were probably in there. early 60s or 50s, oh, sorry, late 50s, early 60s maybe. And what I saw was, here there are two gentlemen who saw war the way I saw war. And they had nothing but smiles,
Starting point is 00:20:28 positive attitude, and they were successful, kind, empathetic. And I just looked at them and I felt like, why am I so bitter? you know and I just want to be like them looking at the world in a different way and they were so kind to me right they used to call me a kid hey kid how are today and I would call Mr. McCrae Mr. Bud out of respect and and I started seeing that in people that realizing that
Starting point is 00:20:59 yeah you know what world can be dark but there are sparks of humanity out there that gives you hope and then I met that. this very young man who is 10 years old than me. He was 29. His name was Bill Holland. He was a salesman in the company, as I found out later. He came to drop off some mail in the mail room, and I got up and introduced myself, said, hi, I'm Roy Ratnable. He said, I'm Bill Holland, and I said, that's a nice tie. Because my father always wore nice ties, and I love nice ties, and I couldn't afford any, obviously, but I could appreciate beauty of the tie. And a week, and a half later, maybe I saw a shopping bag on my little workstation and opened it up and there's
Starting point is 00:21:43 maybe a half a dozen ties, you know, canalsies, bryonis, and Awanis, bosses. The stuff that he wasn't using, then he gave it to me. And again, that was kind gesture, right? And I jokingly say that then since then I became, since then I was the, the best dressed mailroom guy on Bay Street. but yeah so so so those incidents little by little start building um this this darkness in my heart to let it go um because if you if you are if you're hung up on your past you're not going to prepare for your future and uh and so i needed to learn that lesson thankfully i learned it very early on and uh and that helped me um because despair can become, despair actually can become a doorway to your future.
Starting point is 00:22:37 I always say that. That is a lot of really good advice. I'm curious about work ethic. I'm wondering about this effort you're willing to put in. Once you put it on yourself, once you're willing to take your load on and carry it, you choose to start working three jobs. You're trying to go to night school. You're pushing all of these things today from what we hear.
Starting point is 00:23:01 in commonplace society is that you're going to get burnout. You're going to overwork yourself. You need a work-life balance. What are you doing? You shouldn't go too hard. And I think that there is a place for that at a certain point in your life. But that hunger, that willingness to push yourself, that belief that hard work will have a positive result for you long term is something I think we hear less and less that's not being encouraged. And I think you're a person who can speak to some of the benefits of it.
Starting point is 00:23:29 Yeah, you know what? I think you and I have a very similar view on this. And I get this all the time. And I mentored a lot of people. I publicly speak about careers and successes and things like that. And I get this work, life-bound stuff that come up. It's a very new-age stuff. And I'm not saying people should not have work but life-end balance. It just should strive for that, always. But the thing is, it come at a cost, right? Like, it really depends on how you want to look at world. Like, I have a very good friend who, is amazing father, great husband, great human being, he looks at world differently than I do. He wants that, right? He wants to go home and have a balance. But that comes at a cost of career advancement. And there's nothing wrong with it. As long as he's happy with where he's that. I, on the other hand, believe that if you want to be really successful or specialize in something, at a very young age, you shouldn't really have balance. You should just work, work, work. And I used this line in the book, but I didn't want to know what that meant. I said, you can't achieve something abnormal by behaving normal. Beaving normal is
Starting point is 00:24:49 nine to five go home. Abnormal is, you just constantly, crafting and getting better at your craft, right? And so I want to do something abnormal, which is, here's a kid who didn't speak English, with an accent, come to Canada, with nobody knows any, no one, nothing's going on. I have to do something abnormal. And the abnormal thing is to work harder than anyone else, differentiate yourself more than anyone else, and always constantly learn, evolve, and change. And I truly believe nine out of ten human interactions are not memorable. And so you have to differentiate yourself and you got to work harder than the guy next to you.
Starting point is 00:25:35 And these are the things that I did. So for me, when somebody says I want to work like balance, I always say, well, it's going to limit your success. So you really need to know what is important to you. Again, I'm not advocating for no balance. What I'm saying is I'm being realistic about it. Like, you are in a firm like this. There are many people try to compete for the job that I have today. And why do I have this job?
Starting point is 00:26:03 It's not because they thought, well, some immigrant kid, we should probably hire him. I was better than everyone else who applied for this job. And that's why I believe in meritocracy. Because if you're good, you're good. And if you want to be the best, you've got to beat the best. And that can't happen just by saying, I want to go home at five. So, you know, we were asked to do X number of meetings when we were in sales. 80 meetings a month is the quota, right?
Starting point is 00:26:33 Like 20 a week, 80. I would do 120. Instead of doing one hour meeting, I would do 20 minutes meetings because that's being memorable. I would be punchy, fast, quick, get to the point. Don't waste people's time. And they'll remember you. And the third thing is, when the. the facts change, you always reserve the right to change your opinion. Those who do not change
Starting point is 00:26:56 will never succeed in life. I always said that don't be afraid of change, but be terrified of not changing. And over the years, I've changed my personality, how I look at things, even as a husband. You know, I was a terrible husband out of the gate because I didn't know. There's no manual for it. And I realized over time, look, I'm making a lot of mistakes and hurting the other person. I got to figure this out. And it's really having that, knowing your blind spot is important. No one is perfect. And I talk about it in the book. And I had a lot of PTSD, anger issues. And it was affecting, mostly affects people who love you more than the people who do not know you. Like, you don't go pick a fight with a stranger. You pick a fight with someone
Starting point is 00:27:41 you know, right? And so just having that perspective always saying, hey, listen, you know, I can be perfect. I'm hurting people. I got to change, evolve, and grow. And so that's how it's a really, the book is not about suffering. It's about success. It's about failures. It's about triumphs. It's about life. It's about struggle. It's about, it's a human story. It applies to, it could be an indigenous person. You could be a person from somewhere in trouble nation, Africa. You could be anywhere. It's the common thing. that I keep coming back to is the human connections. And when I was traveling to Western Canada,
Starting point is 00:28:25 I met so many amazing people from all communities. And I was in Saskatchewan. I met many native leaders there in OK Falls. Chief Louis and I have been in panels before. And so I can just keep repeating this line over there. There's more in common with people. than differences. And if you can just remember that, it's unfortunately, politics and divisiveness come from whether social media, mainstream media, political rhetoric, whatever that is. I think
Starting point is 00:29:06 we need to overcome that. I couldn't agree more. And it's the basis in which I founded this podcast on, which is that there are things to find admirable in most people. who are striving towards something. You might not have the same goal as them, but them striving inspires you to want to strive forward as well. This also kind of leads into this idea of imposter syndrome. And what I often think about in regards to imposter syndrome is if you feel like you're not,
Starting point is 00:29:35 if you're holding a position you don't deserve, then you need to work harder to feel like you deserve it. Because people who have grinded and put in a ton of work in order to get to where they are are often appreciative and recognize all of the long hours and efforts they put in. If you're feeling that kind of weight of like maybe I don't deserve this position, earn it. Make yourself believe that you deserve it. Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, listen, I've said this before. It said, you can't control the outcome, but you're 100% in charge of
Starting point is 00:30:05 the input, right? And just because you work hard doesn't mean you're going to get promoted. There are many things you have to do, right? First, you've got to work hard. Then people need to know that you're working hard. Because he was just a hard worker. You're going to be a hard worker. You're not going to progress. And that's being naive too, right? So the bosses need to know that you are doing the things more than the other person's doing. So you've got to be a little bit of a self-promoter, you know, shamelessly. But not an ask you sir. But a person who shows, here's the work I've done. Because if you don't show it, the bosses that you're reporting do will not know that you are doing the work.
Starting point is 00:30:49 And then the other is really being likable. You know, you need to be that person. I always said, just because someone is nice, that doesn't mean they're a good person. Right? Nice doesn't mean good. Nice just mean nice. But I've learned over the years that likable people, like people need to like you first to first deal with you.
Starting point is 00:31:13 So you need to be a likable person. And that's a lesson I learned. I was a very rude kid at enough time for things. I just curred and very short with my sentences. I was not warm and fuzzy about things. Because I was trying to, I'm on a clock, you see, because I want to be successful. I want to do these things. And because it all was driven by the fact that when my father died two days after I landed here,
Starting point is 00:31:39 which we haven't touched on, but bring it to the audience, two days after I landed on April 21st. 188, my father was shot and killed. So when he died, part of me died with him. The other part became a fighter because I had to live for two people after his untimely death. I thought if I did well enough in life, somehow I could give the life he should have had. That became my call for my furnace of ambition. And so because I was so ambitious, I got my blinders on. You see, I wasn't paying attention to people's empathy, feelings, any of that stuff. I just need to get to this thing.
Starting point is 00:32:19 I don't get how I'm going to get to it. I want to get to it. But along the way, you create casualties. And so I had to kind of backtrack a little bit and learn about how to manage people networking and be likable. Because nobody wants to deal with an asshole. And, yeah, I still have that streak in me, but I've got it managed and control. controlled and try to win people over first before you pitched them an idea. I did want to touch on your father. He's a role model to you. And I think brilliant because he has both principles and philosophies that he lived by that he passed on to you.
Starting point is 00:33:03 And when I look at so many universities now, there are one department that is not succeeding is their philosophy department. And that's very concerning to me because we need to instill based. principles into people, and watching some of your interviews, you talk about the philosophies that he brought to you, hard work wins, do things to perfection, don't just survive, live. I'm wondering if we can talk about how these philosophies shaped your mindset in terms of living a meaningful life. Yeah, you basically captured all three things that he used to say, hard work wins, there's dignity and hard work. Because look, there are times in our lives, even today, sometimes I don't
Starting point is 00:33:48 want to do certain things. You know, like I really don't. And I go, I have to do this. I have to do this. So that part is important. And then really do things to perfection. And that's something that he drilled into me, right? How you look, how you dress. And so he would continue to pound it into my head. So he will ask me to do some chores in the house. And then I would do it. And he'll say, well, you miss that spot, that spot, it's a redo. And as much as the time was so annoying, but I knew what he was trying to get at. Like, you have to do things to perfection. And then the third part is really, there are many other things, but the other thing I would say is like evolving part was important to him, right? He says to me, you have to simulate.
Starting point is 00:34:42 into society. You've got to learn from others. So when I came to Canada, his strict orders were, is not to hang out with my own community. Like, have friends, have your friends in your community, that's fine, but always make friendship outside of your community, because you want to learn about how other people think, and how they eat and what they eat, and how they practice religion, and what kind of philosophy they have. And so I was always very intellectually curious to the time I was arrived in Canada. So I started making friends. Many of them are still my good friends, you know, friends from Jamaica, friends from China, friends from, you name Eastern European countries, all new immigrants, because we're all in the same kind of running into the same
Starting point is 00:35:28 circles and making those relationships. And I think that's probably one of the most important lesson is really seeing other people's perspective and really understanding that everybody has a voice. And even if it's not something you agree with, you have to listen to them. And that's why I increasingly get, I think you and my, I have this probably view, is that this social media got us into these chambers, little bubbles that we are in. So if you are this politics, you get the same algorithms and you're the same thing. And you listen to the same. It's called confirmation bias, right? If you're being confirmed on things you already believe in, and that's not how you learn. So that would say, I would just say those three things, been important.
Starting point is 00:36:14 It's that hard work, do things to perfection, and evolve with your thoughts and beliefs. This is one of the concerns I have, just particularly with the reserve system in Canada, is I'm a council member with my community, and I think about the reserve system. And the argument for it is that we get to keep this land. This is our land. We don't have to worry about other land. But then the challenge is everybody is in the same boat. You don't have that kind of mixed community where people are coming with different experiences and I often try and explain to people that like their next door neighbors aren't doctors or
Starting point is 00:36:48 dentists or people of different worldviews where you go, oh wow, maybe I'll go over to my neighbor's house and ask about how to go become a lawyer or a judge or do these other things that I might not have thought about, which is what you get in regular municipalities. Your neighbor might be in a completely different field than your parents were. And you get this kind of new worldview that inspires you to think about a different career path or different opportunities and go, I want to go live like that person. And I think that's where I got it from was seeing family members who I'm not blood related to living a quality of life that I aspired to and then looking at my indigenous community and going, wow,
Starting point is 00:37:24 they're struggling. They don't have comfort. They don't have this quality of life. I want this over here and not this. And I want better for them. And I want everybody to live like these other people over here. And I think that that's so important that we mix our communities, that we get to know other people because it gives us insights into where our blind spots are, where we can learn, where we can grow and develop. I could not agree more. It's really about at the end of the day, being a better at everything, being a better father, being a better husband, being a better spouse, I should say, better friend, constantly improving. It's the Japanese term called Kaizen, right? Constantly improving. Constantly improving. And look, I'm far away from
Starting point is 00:38:09 being a perfect person. I will never be. But I know I'm a far better human being today than I was 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago. That I could guarantee. You know, I learn every day as, you know, even interacting with my son. You know, he's 18. I was 18. And sort of having his exchanges with them, then you realize, oh, yeah, I should have probably not. said that to him because that was me, right? Like, I apologize. I mean, it's not about age. It's about people say dumb things, and I say dumb things sometimes.
Starting point is 00:38:41 And I just say, hey, man, I'm really sorry that I said that. It shouldn't have hurt your feeling. Park your ego, right? I mean, it hurts me to see when people clearly in the wrong will never admit it. And I always say, don't apologize because it's not popular. I apologize because you're wrong, you know. You can say something unpopular and still be right. And I will never apologize for that.
Starting point is 00:39:09 But you can be wrong, and if you know you're wrong, first thing to do is apologize and learn and grow. And this interaction between many people from different background is an amazing experience, and it's an asset to a human being, really. I actually personally will go sit down with people I don't know, if I'm at a conference, I'm not going to hang out with the people I know. I'll just go take a seat somewhere. I wouldn't say not every interaction has been positive that way, but more than not,
Starting point is 00:39:43 you just find amazing people. And I talk about one in the book in Lethbridge. I was going and sitting with this couple that didn't feel like I could ever have a conversation with because we all judge them, let's not get each other. And I was prejudged them and sat down. and had no other choice but to talk to them because they were next to me. And then I realized what an incredibly great human beings they were. And I learned a tonne that night sitting and talking to them.
Starting point is 00:40:11 And the amount of charity work they've been doing in Asia and helping orphans and things like that and immediately we clicked and still friends after 15 years of that first conversation, right? I love that. I'm wondering, one of the challenges I think people struggle with is they go through struggle. They go through challenge. They go through barriers. And then some want to protect their children from it as much as possible. They want to shield them from the realities of the world, the adversity they're going to face.
Starting point is 00:40:41 And then others say, this instilled something healthy in me, but I obviously don't want you to go through the exact same things I went through. And you want to create this balance where they're sharpening themselves. They're growing as individuals. And I'm just wondering how you approach this. How do you think about both instilling the discipline and the principle. as you grew up with while balancing and making sure that they do have a more comfortable life. Yeah, I mean, you mean for my son? Yes.
Starting point is 00:41:10 Yeah. So, interesting, we had a conversation, a heated argument on Father's Day. Bad day to have a argument with your boy. But it was, I saw something that I didn't like. And I don't want to get into the details just for the sake of time. So I dropped the hammer on him, right? And his response was, dad, just because I didn't grow up in a war, doesn't mean I don't have challenges. You know, you should almost knock it off.
Starting point is 00:41:39 Like, you can't just always bring up the war as a year. I didn't say that, but he felt that in my voice that I thought he was just a soft kid. So I guess what I learned was it is tough because I look at him and I go, wow. You know, he's living in a great country, in a great city, and going to great school, and it's got everything. I had the opposite. I was in a horrible country, in a horrible environment, and went to horrible school. And so you carry that kind of, not grudge, but that fear that what would happen to him if things turned bad, right? Of course, there's no war in Canada.
Starting point is 00:42:22 I don't want it to be. but what kind of hardship can kids of his age could ever experience so it can toughen them up because I believe that humans do better in adversity than in luxury. It's like going to the gym, right? You give resistance to your muscle, it grows. Same with human beings. There's resistance you grow. It's like it's a pressure that makes a basketball bounce.
Starting point is 00:42:50 And so, you know, how do you? So it is a challenge, to be honest. And sometimes I see it makes me incredibly frustrated, just frustrating to see him do certain things in a certain way. And I wouldn't do it that way. But I had to kind of restrain myself from being overly critiquing him. Because to his defense, he's in a country that is far different than what I grew up in. So I would say to answer that question, it's a challenge because I'm a very driven person, even at this age, I never stop. You know, I write books, I do speeches, I'm up at 430 working out, still here, we'll do a podcast, I'll go lunch right after this, and I've got a ton of things going on.
Starting point is 00:43:39 And it's because I like being busy. And I will be busy until the day I take the last breath. and so yeah i got to find the balance in that because my sons are kind of a little more chill guy and there's nothing wrong with that he's i think he's going to do fine but i just need to i haven't really figured it out to be honest i'm still working on that brilliant i think that's a very honest answer and i think it goes exactly to that challenge it's a constant finding the balance between the two there isn't a day where you get the right answer and you get to do that forever. Can we talk about Prisoner 1056? Can we talk about how you went about writing this book,
Starting point is 00:44:17 how you came up with the name. You talked about how the dam broke. You talked about writing 95,000 words in 60 days. It's just incredible the amount that you were able to put into this. Can you talk about how this book came about for you? Yeah. When I was around my mid-30s, I was living in Vancouver, as I said. I was living there, building a life and business and just had a son born. in 2005. And I thought I should write a book one day to tell a story of a tortured prisoner, teen prisoner, and to give the people who are either directly or indirectly affected by the war of avenue to grieve, maybe, the word, and to have a cathartic experience to let the pass go. The other is to really give a voice to the next generation of Tamils who are either in Canada or other Western countries to give a voice, the next generation a voice, to understand the struggles of their forefathers and parents.
Starting point is 00:45:28 But third, probably the most importantly, is to really let the Canadians know that what a wonderful country we have. despite the fact it has its own colonial past. It's very ugly. I don't have to lecture you on that. But the reality is human history is a horror story, right? Along the way, humans have done horrible things to each other. But for someone like me or many like me who have come here from conflict zones can tell you this. Canada is a million times better than what's out there.
Starting point is 00:46:06 it doesn't mean we stop progressing. And I always said that admitting the progress has been made doesn't mean we stop. Denying doesn't make you a better person. So what I wanted to convey in this book is to we all have a responsibility to the places we were born in. So in Canada, I inherited this place. I wasn't born here. But I truly believe I want to leave this place, this amazing.
Starting point is 00:46:36 nation better than I have found it. And that's the responsibility we all should strive for and share. Because at the end of the day, you're not going to take accolades with you is the impact you make. And for me, that was important part of the book because I don't want to just write about an experience like, oh, a teenage guy came here, tortured kid, came to Bay Street and made a bunch of money. And, happy ending. Well, that's a story. There are millions of stories like that out there. And there should be because that's where people come here to have a better life. But what's the message? What's the third act? The third act is this, is that it is so easy to denounce freedom. It's very
Starting point is 00:47:24 hard to attain it. And a lot of people who are born here, I'm not saying everyone, but a lot of people that I know who are born here, many generations here, do not appreciate this precious commodity known as freedom. There are only two things human beings need to be guaranteed in life, freedom and choice. That's it. World owes you nothing more than that. When you have freedom and choice, you'll be rewarded for the good choices you make. You'll be punished or not rewarded for the bad choices you make. That's the price of freedom. So for me, me defending this freedom and democratic rights is important. So what I was trying to convey to the readers is that when you have those freedom and choice, you can create a society that
Starting point is 00:48:15 can be at harmony and thriving. And Canada is a very good example of that. Sure, can this country be better? Yes. Can we go back and fix the past? Certainly not. But can we acknowledge the past and make sure we're doing the right things to never to repeat the mistakes we have made. Because in the final analysis, a civil society depends on, for the most part, not on the law enforcement, but on civilized people making the conscious decision not to do bad things to others. the democratic political system assumes a certain minimum level of, say, ethical behavior and responsibility and civility on everybody's behalf. And also on the elected government's behalf as well, that is about what is explicitly spelled out by the Constitution. If those ethics
Starting point is 00:49:10 are absent, the democracy isn't going to work. It's really at the end of the day, it's you, Aaron, it's me, it's collective us. as doing what is ethically right. I know it's too much to ask because there are bad people out there. There will always be bad people. And I tell my son this old time, son, when you get out there in the real world, sometimes you're going to find mean, unreasonable, awful people.
Starting point is 00:49:37 But that doesn't fundamentally will stop you from doing great things and leaving an impact on this world. Because you can't let someone you don't know set your mood, set your tone. You can't live like that. You have to really be thinking about as an individual and demand these two rights, freedom and choice. And don't let that grow up because that's a scary scenario
Starting point is 00:50:04 when people today are cancel for saying perfectly normal things. And I find that bizarre because I grew up in a country that did that. And it's a basket case economically, democratically, all that stuff. And it all happens with taking away people's freedom. And so I worry about that part. I'm not saying it's rampant in this country, but I'm just saying I could see the signs of it. You know, I used to say, and I still say it, in Sri Lanka, you had freedom of speech, but you don't have freedom after speech
Starting point is 00:50:47 and I don't want cannot have to ever get there we have to protect that we have to die on this hill this is our value it's who we are as freedom to practice religion freedom to think for them to say
Starting point is 00:51:03 as long as it's not hateful speech I think we should be able to have a discussion and I often believe that I don't need to agree with someone to like them. And I have many friends who we don't share any political views at all. And we constantly debate about things. We never agree on anything, but we're good friends.
Starting point is 00:51:26 And I think, unfortunately, the social media has made everything into clubs, right? Either you're this or you're that. And if you're not saying what I believe in, then you're a bad person. It goes both ways. So that's why I wrote the book. It was fast, 60 days. And so I wrote it in Canada, Venice, in Toronto, sorry, one Easter night at a few glasses scotch,
Starting point is 00:51:51 and I told my wife, I'm going to write a book. And she goes, not tonight, honey, go to bed. And I said, no, it just feels right. So I started pounding away, and I wrote like 7,000 words in 7,000 and 8 hours and just pounded out one chapter, and then it just, like, a damn broke. 60 days I had, wrote about 95,000 words, and it took us 18 months to edit it, and then you have a book. It's incredible.
Starting point is 00:52:17 I think the design is so thoughtful when you look at how you design the chapters and how you go through the process. I think it's really inspirational when you're talking about this idea at the end of racism and that you dealt with people who were racist but never stood in your way. I think that I took a lot from that because going through my undergraduate degree, they talked about systemic racism and that indigenous people are overrepresented because of systemic racism and going into the courts and working with the judges while they wanted better for indigenous people and then talking to the crown and they want better for indigenous people
Starting point is 00:52:51 and talking to probation officers, same thing. And I couldn't find this person or this policy the challenge is that we need to support indigenous people in their communities so the crime doesn't occur to begin with so that they can find economic prosperity so they can start to succeed. And I think that that's the message you leave people within this book is that the benefit and the weight is it's on you. And I think that that's such a strong message.
Starting point is 00:53:14 I'd like to close this up with Prime Minister Brian Mulroney because I love when people work hard that things seem to come full circle even when you don't expect it. And I think that that's an incredible anecdote of how things come full circle. Yeah, I mean, I was incredibly honored that right honorable Brian Mulroney would endorse the book. And one thing I forgot to mention is that the prisoner number 1056, is my prisoner number, so I wanted to name it that, and then I put up like a hatch there, basically indirectly saying I'm no longer a prisoner, except at home with my wife.
Starting point is 00:53:52 She decides what I need to do. But it was so incredible to be able to tell the story, so incredible to talk to you, Aaron, and hopefully maybe when I'm out west, I'll look you up and we'll go out and have a me it or also something. But I really beg of everybody who is listening or will be listening is that we're an incredible country. Don't ever forget that. It's not perfect. It's upon us to make it better for the next generation. And the next generation will ever do that to make it better for the following generation. And that's what we have to operate. And if you don't do it, you end up getting Sri Lekra.
Starting point is 00:54:35 incredible I really appreciate you being willing to to tell your story share it through this book I highly recommend people go grab Prisoner 1056 it's absolutely inspirational I've really enjoyed all of the interviews you've done I think it's so important that we hear this message it's just been such an honor to share this time with you today thank you Aaron appreciate that have a good day what did you think what did you learn um incredible story I I constantly think because you put together vertical TikTok and YouTube at just how concise he has his message and his sound bites, just from lessons learned along the way, there's just so much to share there.
Starting point is 00:55:21 I couldn't agree more. I was so excited when you get to see somebody how I survived war and found peace. That's exactly the types of messages I think are so important for people to hear because it seems like many people are stuck when we're talking about the overdose rates continuing to increase depression rates being high is that in some ways we don't realize how good we have it and how we should appreciate and when people come on and they're able to share this story of where they started from being in prison in another country and dreaming of the day they could be here it reminds us of how grateful we should be every day that
Starting point is 00:56:00 we're here in this in this free country yeah absolutely and i loved his story about his son essentially saying dad not everything is about you being in prison and war right like imagine just the perspective from both sides of that relationship so yeah it's it's complicated right because you carry that and then i think the other challenge is other people think you carry that in a lot of ways Like a lot of people, the weird one for me is always like Father's Day, like the comments around like, oh, like is this day hard for you? Is this a chat? Like people put it on to you, like you're carrying something. And then if I kind of minimalize it or I go, no, like it's all good. Like I'm fine. Like it's not a big deal. It almost comes across like I'm pretending. Like I'm not taking it seriously. And so often people put what they think you feel onto you perhaps sometimes unconsciously. And that's, sort of how it is. He was like, I wasn't doing that, but having gone through this experience, he thinks that that's the perspective I'm bringing to this disagreement. I also appreciated the perspective on work-life balance.
Starting point is 00:57:13 Like, I couldn't self-identify with all of what his belief system is, but it definitely that people are on the spectrum of where they want to be with that. And if you think of Bay Street in Toronto, and it's, you know, it's our Wall Street, essentially. And I can't imagine that world. But it's... Yeah, I'm very much a part of that world where it's like I said that once we have the basic things that I define success as, a home, a family, like those pieces, a nice vehicle, then I will take a break. I will calm down. But I don't want to take my foot off the gas.
Starting point is 00:57:57 during these years that are often for people considered the grinding years, where you are working hard, you are doing a little bit too much work, but in the effort of making our lives comfortable for the long term. And so I agree with him to a certain extent. I don't know if I'll do that till I'm 50, but the mindset right now is definitely put in as much effort as possible because these are the days where you have the most energy, so utilize it and try and make the most of it. For sure. I think, and I'm also trying to visualize, what would it be like? to work in a skyrise building where it is just literally the ladder of floor by floor going through the mailroom to the executive suite and just the amount of interactions and everything being
Starting point is 00:58:47 somewhat of a clinical interaction of just trying to climb that ladder. Yeah, and seeing the people around you and things. thinking, like, that person's up for the promotion and I'm up for the promotion and how do I differentiate myself? Like, it's almost more clear cut than in a rural community where there is less of a clear, how do I get to where I want to go? Yes. Yes. And I must admit, I've never had an 80 meeting quota that I've had to meet. Probably for the best. Yes. But an amazing story, amazing interview, and well done.
Starting point is 00:59:27 Again, people, go check out Prisoner 1056. It's an incredible book. He has an incredible story. He has a bunch more interviews where they take different approaches. So I recommend people go checking that out. And get excited for the next episode coming soon.

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