Nuanced. - 118. Dr. Elizabeth Gow: How Many Birds Do Cats Kill?

Episode Date: July 25, 2023

Dr. Elizabeth Gow, a research scientist and environmental advocate, answers the question of how many birds cats kill. Delve into the delicate balance of ecosystems and the profound impact of human actions on nature. Marvel at the fascinating world of bird migration and explore the crucial need for conservation amid ecosystem threats. Engage in thought-provoking discussions on the unique role of cats in our environment and their influence on bird populations.Send us a textThe "What's Going On?" PodcastThink casual, relatable discussions like you'd overhear in a barbershop....Listen on: Apple Podcasts   SpotifySupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger Than Me podcast. Here is your host, Aaron. Thank you for tuning into another Bigger Than Me podcast episode. Did you know that bird populations are declining? They're a bio indicator, which means they tell us about the ecosystem and what's going on. Biodiversity is something we hear a lot about, and this is one of the indicators that things are not going well in those ecosystems. With my guest today, we discussed this topic, but we also discuss cats. I have a cat. His name is Mo.

Mo gets up to all types of things in the house, but with my guest, we dive into what cats get up to when we're not watching them, when they're out in the environment. Did you know that they kill birds? These are some of the topics we cover today. My guest today is Elizabeth Dow. Elizabeth, what a pleasure it is to sit down with you. I've been very excited to speak with you. Would you mind introducing yourself? Yeah, well, thank you, and it's very nice to be here as well and to meet you in and be on this podcast.

Yeah, so I'm Elizabeth Gow. I'm a research scientist in the Wildlife Research Division of Environment and Climate Change Canada. Can we start with animal behaviorist? What does that term mean? Yeah, so an animal behavioralist is someone that studies the behavior of animals. So, you know, we have human behavioralists. You become often psychologists, but I'm kind of like a do a lot of behavior and study, like, what animals do, why they behave, how they interact with their environment. How did you get interested in this?

Well, as a kid, my dad was a biologist when I was really young. And so I kind of just got exposed to animals. And then as I was growing up, I was watching documentaries. This is back in the 90s. So like crocodile hunter, Steve Irwin, and just got really fascinated with all kinds of different animals and why they behave and how they behave. And then eventually, you know, sort of one thing led to an animal. another and ended up making a career out of it. In a lot of Western culture, there's this idea that humans are at the top,

animals are at the bottom, trees below that, there's kind of a hierarchy understanding. Within indigenous culture, it's different. We're all humans are reliant on nature and animals and the ecosystems around us. What lens did you see things through at an early age? I saw sort of the opposite. Like, well, not entirely the opposite. I didn't really see humans as, like, above everything. I kind of saw us, like, at the bottom as, like, the whole ecosystems and all animals being above us.

We're very similar. There's a lot of similarities between us and humans and animals. Do you, would you find yourself admiring animals around you and wildlife around? Yeah, I think I was just very fascinated. I think most kids have an innate fascination with nature around them. You know, I think of you can take, you can find a frog and pick up a frog. And the kids are all excited to see the frog and hold the frog and the adults are kind of shying away from it.

So I think there's always this innate thing when you're a kid. And then, you know, some people stick with that and other people shy away from it as they get older. But it's just a fascination of just seeing, seeing animals and then starting to get like, well, why are they doing this? Like, why are they behaving in this way? And that's kind of where, you know, the science kind of comes in later on. Do you see yourself looking at people differently with your ability to see animals and look at their behaviors? Do you see overlap with looking at people?

Often they say that like communication isn't what people are saying. It's body language. It's tone. It's behavior. It's action. And sometimes we miss out on that because we're so focused on what people are saying. Yeah. I think all the time, yeah, I study birds.

That's my main, like, sort of taxa that I work with, the same animals I work with. And I see parallels all the time. And when you dive into really trying to understand birds, it's like, oh, that's just like what we do. And it makes me sort of understand humans, I think, very differently. I often understand them from an animal perspective or try to. Then we're like, oh, this is what this bird does. And then, oh, this human does this as well. What pulled the initial fascination with birds?

Why did that kind of become a pillar for your understanding? Um, well, I, I, my dad was a birder. And so I kind of got dragged along on birding trips and I was a kid. I didn't really like birds. Um, I was kind of, I think it's kind of like, you know, your parents kind of pull you along to do something. You, you kind of rebel against it. And also there was never, um, everyone I knew that like birds was over like 40 or 50. And when you're, you know, a teenager that you don't have well, roll miles there younger. So I didn't get into birds until I started to meet some younger scientists that, um, you know, I got to see a little bit of what they're doing. And, and, I got to see really colorful birds and watch them through photography. I was like really into photography and trying to take photos of mammals, which are like the charismatic animals, but there's not as many mammals around as there are birds. And so as I was like waiting for, you know, mammals to do something, I'd be watching the birds and then starting to get really fascinated with them. And then you start to look in bird books and see, oh, wow, there's like these amazingly beautiful

birds like scarlet tenders and they're bright red and black wings and these warblers they're bright yellow and green and uh and black and it and it gets really when you start seeing that and then you start seeing those birds in nature it like opens your eyes up to in a whole different world bird migration is also an area you're interested in and i've interviewed a birder previously and one of the things that's hard to comprehend is the vast distances they travel with no maps, with some sort of innate understanding of where they want to go. Can you talk about bird migration? Yeah, I can.

And I'm going to preface this of a bit of a story because I think it would be good. So I've been saying bird migration for almost two decades. And back in 2007, we didn't know much about bird migration. That was when I was kind of getting started as a researcher. And I had an opportunity working with Dr. Bridges Suchray, who is my master's supervisor. and of these little tiny devices called geolocators, or light-level geolocators, that you put on the backs of birds.

We put them on like a little backpack that goes on their butt. And so these tags, they could tell us where birds were going. And back then, no one had ever tracked small birds. You could put on larger birds, they could take these big tags, and you could follow them. These little tiny birds that are 50 grams. So 50 grams is like four tunis in your palm of your hand. So very, very light.

So these devices were like a gram. So again, very, very light about the size of your fingernail. And so we put them on the box of birds. And back in 2007, we'd never done this. We put them on. We had to put them on the birds. They had to come back the following year. And when we got them back and you download this information that tells you all about

these different light levels. And light levels can tell you wherever it is in the sense of like you can get the latitude and longitude from the sunrise and southern. sunset times as well as the local midnight in noon. And then that information can tell us, where are they on Earth? Because there's only one place that has these specific sunrise and sunset times, knowing one place for a specific noon or sunset are midnight. And from there, we could see exactly where they were.

And so as we caught our first birds, which is a little bit, like when you catch a bird with this data on it, it's kind of like winning a big championship when you catch this bird. And then we download the data into computer and we got to see, you know, the first record of a small 50 grand bird on its migration from northwestern Pennsylvania down to Glees. And this is, it's remarkable because it was doing this migration in like five, six days from Belize up to Pennsylvania in the spring. And so a 50 grand bird is flying, it's like three, four thousand kilometers. and in days. And so bird migration, when we sort of present that work,

people were just so fascinating because no one had really realized how fast these birds were going. We thought they were moving fast, but we'd never actually seen these tracks. And so I think that story, to me, kind of shows just how amazing bird migration is because they move, some birds will move very, very fast.

They cover big distances, and they're doing it all in their wing power. Why are they traveling these distances, unlike other mammals that are able to stay in the same location for so long? What motivates this migration? Yeah, so birds, you know, they need food. And so we can think of it as, well, if you're a grocery store or close to you runs out of food, you're going to go to one farther way. It's a little bit like that for birds, where in the winter in, you know, Canada, there's not a lot of food. A lot of birds eat insects.

The insects aren't here in the winter. So they have to go and find them. And so they go down to southern areas in the tropics where there's lots of insects, there's lots of food. And they actually spend most of the year in the sort of southern places. And it's about 70 to 90% of birds that are migratory in Canada. So a very large number of birds are going, you know, southern U.S., southern Canada in the lower mainland region of BC. There's a lot of birds from Alaska that actually winter in that region. and then a lot of birds are going down you know central south america mexico uh quite quite far

distances wow what is the farthest distance that we're aware of that birds can travel well i think a lot of people are aware of the arctic turn that travels like over 10 000 i think it's over 10 000 kilometers uh so it goes from the north pole to the south pole a lot of uh a lot of shorebirds will travel very very long distances that come all the way up from like Alaska down to the south, very South America, like as far south as you can go in South America. And so they're traveling, you know, under their own wings, you know, these couple hundred grand birds are flying thousands and thousands of kilometers every year. There's one bird that the birder I interviewed previously talked about that needs to stop in

Delta in some sort of area in order to get some sort of algae or amino acid. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, the Western sandpipers that are breeding up. up in the Arctic, and a very large number of them will come down onto the shores of Delta B.C. And eat the, it's like a biofilm. It's like a very nutrient-dense substance. And this is unique to them, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, it's very unique to, I think, this species and a few other species that might need it too. Is there a reason why they're doing that and others aren't? I just find that it's, A, interesting, but B, concerning when you think about,

the potential for development, the potential for using that for building houses instead, and the lack of understanding of people who are outside of that community to fully comprehend the importance of some of these ecosystems. Yeah, and I'm not a short bird expert, but, you know, what we know about birds is they have specific niches. And a niche is something that is like, it's specific things that they eat and are specific things that they need to survive. So it's kind of like, you know, some people really like certain types.

food and other people don't. So it's like you go and you try to make sure you eat the food that you really like. And that's a lot like birds, although it's a little bit more specific, but their whole digestive systems are adapted to certain foods. And so a lot of these Sherbirds in Western Sandpiper, you know, they've been doing these migrations for thousands and thousands of years. And so over their evolution time, they've evolved to feed off these resources. They're very plentiful because it probably, there aren't other birds, interfering or using those resources. It's a resource that they can get that's beneficial for them that they need to get to

the nurse their non-breeding areas. It reminds me somewhat of the resident killer whales and their need for wild Pacific salmon. Yeah. Yeah, it's very similar to that where there's specific food sources that each species would need to survive. Are there lessons we can take away from bird migration or bird generally, in your opinion? I think there's lots of lessons.

I think birds are bio-indicators, so they can tell us about an environment well before we even really understand it, so they can tell us if an environment's degrading. So if it's getting really poor, often bird populations or birds will tell us that. So we've lost, in the past 40, 50 years, we've lost over total 3 billion birds.

And most birds, songbird species, that breed in Canada, their populations have declined 30, 40, 50, 60%, some of them even 90%. And so there's way, way fewer birds now than there was 50 years ago. And I've seen that in my lifetime. You know, most most birders have seen that change. And so birds are telling us, they're literally a canary in the coal mine. They're telling us that we're, you know, changing our habitats so much that it's affecting us. And we start to see that, you know, human health effects.

We see that with climate change, all these things where birds have literally been telling us this is happening. And we just haven't always been taking attention. So when birds start to not populate in certain areas, that's a sign of like a lack of biodiversity? Or what is it indicating? It can be a sign that there isn't the right habitat for them. And so a lot of habitats now are very sort of engineered by us. You know, we're cutting down trees. we're sometimes planting trees that are not the same.

We're changing everything about the environment. And some birds are very, they're fine in that sort of thing. They're just adapted for that, but others aren't. And a lot of the birds that are declining, they're really picky. So they're kind of like picky eaters or they're picky about where they live. And, you know, they're ones that are really telling us, yeah, we've changed the environment so much. There's nowhere, nowhere they can live or where they're kind of. comfortable. Are there any qualities you're describing them as picky, but things that they need

that we're doing to the environment to make it more challenging? Are there clear things that we can stop doing or modify our behavior in order to start to address these issues? Or are these more niche areas where it would be challenging to kind of make a movement or an approach that everybody can get on board with. Well, I think there's, like, these are really big, complex challenges. You know, we're talking about climate change. We're talking about habitat conversion and destruction and, you know, forest changes from forestry or forest fires, all these different things that are affecting for it.

So they're really big issues, but there's a lot of things that, like, people can do, individual people can do. So, you know, these big things, but there's also sort of direct. direct mortality things. There's things like birds hitting windows, so you can put decals on your windows. And, you know, it's hundreds of millions of birds a year in Canada that are killed by windows.

Cats, you can keep your cat indoors. You know, you can provide enrichment for the cat inside. You can, you know, you can drive less, which helps with climate change. There's a lot of little things that you can do. And people often forget, they think, oh, what I do is not going to make a difference. But all the little things that you do can make a big difference.

Even, you know, buying recycled toilet paper is beneficial. It uses recycled paper as opposed to cutting down trees or not using as many resources for things. I think you described this as a bio indicator that the birds are a canary in the coal mine and that their reduction can be an indication to us that we're having effects on the environment. I'm just curious, are there birds that stand out to you or a species that's predominant that that kind of gives us that feedback more clearly? There isn't like single species, but you can look at a lot of the species that are, a lot of the aerial insectivore species. So these are like the swallows and flycatchers. And most people have seen swallows, like even if you live in cities, they're the little tiny birds that buy very, very fast.

It's a nice through our streets. I think there's lots of barn swallows where I live that are zipping around my street. But they're very small birds and they eat insects. And there's some of the birds that have faced some of the biggest declines. So some of them are 80, 90 percent of their populations are gone. And they're really indicators showing that, you know, our insect populations, which insects are one of the base of the pyramid over ecosystems. And part of the reason that those aerial insectar bears are declined is likely.

due to changes in insects, either insect abundances, biodiversity, basically massive changes in the food that they need. So not only maybe they're losing habitat for them to nest in, which is one factor, there also isn't the food necessary for them to raise their young. This isn't a position I hold, but I have this person in my mind that's saying something like, well, evolution is the goal is that the strongest adapt and that that's how evolution works. is if you can't adapt, if you're too sensitive, if you're not going to be strong, then only the strongest survive. What do you say to those individuals? Well, evolution takes a long time.

So I think that's one thing that people forget is that, you know, we're looking at changes that are happening in a very short time span, like hundreds of years. And evolution, in many cases, takes thousands and thousands, hundreds, tens of thousands of years. And so with the changes that are happening, they're so rapid, animals can't evolve in that pace and that speed. And some are more flexible than others. So they're able to, they just have even a broader niche or there's more things that they can eat. There's more places that they can nest. There's more places that they can go.

They have a bigger habitat that they like to be in. And they often are doing much better than ones that are very narrow focused. And so it's really is a matter if they just don't have the time to evolve. With your understanding of this, I think you are also working on how to address these problems. I'm just curious, do you have hope that we'll be able to address this? Is there a plan in place that we can look forward to to make sure that we address these issues? I think these are, there's some of the biggest issues facing us as like humans. I have hope in some ways, I think there's, I think we're very close to tipping points we can't go back from.

And, you know, we've seen some very big global efforts, like with COVID, you know, massive rapid responses. That's sort of the effort that we need now with climate change. You know, we need these massive global efforts to change our emissions and decarbonize. And those are kind of like the foundational things I think we really need to do right now. The way I discovered you was cats. I'm sure that you're aware that those articles reached a lot of people because we think of our cats just in the backyard, hanging out, usually just sitting around, but your research really shined a light on how much they move, their actions, and their impact.

Can you talk about your work on felines? Yeah. Yeah, so I've been working with cats for a number of years, and cats are one of the most popular pets in Canada and around the world. So most of your very large number of your listeners probably have a cat sitting at home, probably watch it on like right now as they're listening. And so, yeah, my research is looking at what cats do when they're outside and we can't see them. And so I've been, we attach little GPS trackers on their callers and also some cameras on them.

And we also use remote trail cameras in people's yards to see where cats are. and then the cameras that we have on cats that's to see what they're doing. And so we've been sitting cats for a number of years and we're still kind of, I can't really tell you all the results, but we are seeing cats will move, some cats will move

a lot. Some will go several city blocks away from where their owners live and others will stay in their yard. And some cats are very adventurous. They're traveling quite far. They're going into like people's basements. They climb like on people's cars. They're climbing up trees and going through fences and

sometimes into construction sites and others like they don't do a lot. They just kind of go to their yard, their neighbor's yard, they come back home and they repeat over and over again. And so we're getting this really interesting view on what cats are doing, which is important because knowing what they're doing, one from my side as an ecologist, you know, I'm interested what sort of impacts cats have on birds, which is something we know it's a lot. We know cats kill a lot of birds, but we're missing some of the like specific details, particularly in Canada. So knowing, you know, when and what context are they, the killing birds, where are they doing it, what species, but also the other side of like the cat behavior. How can we, how can we

learn about cat behavior outside so that we can create better environments for cats indoors. And I think that's key. That's one big question I have. Approximately, how many birds are cats killing per year? I think I've heard statistics in the state of millions of birds being killed. Yeah. Do we have any figures? Yeah, in Canada, it's 100 to 350 million birds a year.

And so this is, that's a massive number. And it's probably somewhere in the middle and somewhere in the middle of that. So maybe around 200,000, 200 million. And it makes, it makes a lot of sense because when you, I don't know how many, if you, if you walk around neighborhood, I probably see way more cats than most people. But I walk around my neighborhood in the evening and I see four or five cats. And there's actually probably for every, I have to say for every cat you see, there's probably one or two more hiding that are outside. So cats are the most plentiful mesopreditors. So mesopreditors are kind of, they're predators, but they also have a predators above them.

So, for instance, coyotes, they're the most abundant predator in urban systems by like six or seven times. So there's more cats than pretty well any other predator in urban places. And so cats are around people. Birds love to congregate in cities. And so cats certainly do, they have lots of opportunities. need to capture birds and kill birds. The exact numbers we don't know. And that's some of what my research is trying to get at is more details on that.

But it's a very large number. And it's not just the adults that they're killing. They also will take down nests and the parents. And sometimes if a cat kills a parent that has a nest, those nestlings also die. So it's a lot. there's a lot of potential impacts on them. And also mammals, we forget to you, like, we think, oh, cats hunt mice and pests and rats and all that, but they also hunt a lot of native mammals that are beneficial for

ecosystems and bats. Bats are also, you know, like birds, declining very rapidly, and cats will also hunt bats. And with the bats and a lot of other animals, they can spread disease to the cats, but then spread it to other cats that then spread it to their owners. And so cats are often like these major disease transmitters. So, yeah. This isn't a science podcast. So I'm just curious on your perspective. When you say that some aren't going out and hunting the same way, they're staying mostly in the backyard. Would you project that this might be like that 80-20 rule that maybe 20% of cats are killing 80% of the birds? What do those figures look like? Yeah. It's,

likely very much like that. So what we find is only about half of the cats will hunt, actively hunt. And there's sort of these super hunters. So it's like, yeah, that 20%, I don't know exact number yet, but it's probably around that 20, you know, it were from 10 to 30% that are capturing, you know, one to five animals a night sort of thing. Not all birds, but it's, it's, you know, certain cats are, you know, the main ones. Is this a predominant amount of these cats? I think of the roads I go down and it's exactly what you're describing, five or six cats just hanging out on the side of the road or up a tree.

Is this the failure of owners to properly manage? Are these wild cats that don't have owners? What are we looking at in terms of the cats and whether or not they're being properly taken care of? Well, it's a bit of a mix. And it's a very complex problem. You know, we're looking with human behavior. We're looking at long history of cultural influences. We're looking at evolution of cats.

And so cats are, they're one of, we talked about evolutionary, but they're one of these animals that have evolved fairly recently to domestication. So it's only about 10,000 years. That's quite recent. And a lot of people say, well, cats domesticated themselves. So they have these two sides. they're wild. They have this very wild side and anyone that has a cat is going to tell you your cat has a wild side. It's like this predator living in your house. But they also have this very

companion animal. Like they're in our beds. They're, you know, snuggling up to us. And so these two sides make them a very conflicted species. And so they have this very long history of being sort of this conflicted species. And so some of the cats that are outside, they are cats of people put outside. In Canada, it's about 30% of people will put their cats outside. So most people don't, but a small portion do, and they put out sort of one to two cats. Most people have one, sort of one or two cats. And so a lot of the cats outside are cats that people own, but if the cats don't have owners or they aren't spayed or neutered, sometimes their populations can get very, very high.

So cats are not treated like a lot of other domestic animals. People think of them as more disposable types of pets, unfortunately. And because you can leave them, that's one of their characteristics. They can actually, they're the only domesticated animal that I know of that can live without people influence, so they can completely survive on their own. And so sometimes people get a cat, they can't manage that cat, and they dump them. you know, I just saw an article that someone was hosting on like a local community group about a pile of cats that were just dumped, you know, where I live. And it's like, yeah, this is this is a common problem.

When people sometimes just like, oh, I'm just going to let the cat out and I'm going to move away, which happens. Those cats sometimes they'll reproduce with other cats. There's kittens. And the populations can grow very, very fast. So cats can have anywhere from one to three litters a year. And so one cat that you put outside that's not spayed can suddenly have 20, 30 cats in the year. It's really interesting when you think about the domestication and the relationship we as humans can create with a species over time. My understanding is that like our history with dogs is very much the same where we've built this relationship over time.

And you see on one hand the beauty that we can have, this connection we can have, but also the challenge. that we can create when, as you kind of described, I find that word fascinating, the word conflicted, that they have these two sides. Can you elaborate a bit on that? Yeah. Yeah. So I think they're quite conflicted. There's actually a group in the UK that calls them wild companions, which I think is like the best term, because it's like that really is what cats are. You know, cats are real characters. They're great. They make great pets. you know, people love them. But they, they really do live sometimes these conflicted worlds where, you know, some of

some cats are very, like, they're afraid of going outside and others are like, if you let me go outside, I'm going to run around and they love it. But then, and others are much more wild. So there's a lot of sort of variation in personalities with cats, just like where every person's a little bit different. So, yeah, it's a very, I think it's very conflicted in that in itself. creates a lot of challenges. We're looking at, like, you know, people have different views on cats as well.

So it's not just the cats. It's, you know, people's views. A lot of in cities, most more people keep their cats inside. There's in rural areas fewer people do because they see cats more as like pest controllers and in belonging outside. And in cities, I think people are aware of, like, increased chances of them being hit by cars or the coyotes that might run down the streets and capture the cats and all those sorts of things.

A lot more people tend to keep their cats inside in cities. And some of that is like a cultural norm too. In some places there's there seems to be pockets of places that more people put them outside. And it's like if your neighbor puts your cat outside, you're more likely to put your cat outside. Just because like you want to fit in. So you just kind of do what lets you fit in.

But if no one has their cat outside, people tend to follow that. So it's really like thinking, you know, cats, we call them challenges associated with cats are really like one of these wicked problems. And we talk about like wicked problems are these problems that don't necessarily have a solution and they're really complex and challenging and there's multiple different sides to them. So, you know, domestic cats are the challenges around domestic cats, because there's a lot, isn't something you can just solve. saying everyone has to keep their cat inside.

It's like, oh, we have to work with people. There's social justice issues or challenges of cats. If you don't have the resources to stay new to your cat, it costs like $5,600 to your cat's feet are neutered. A lot of people don't have that, but they need the companionship of a cat or how a cat can provide them. And so there's a lot, it's a very complex, challenging problem. that's a really good point i was just about to ask you what do you think people can do in these

circumstances to start to take meaningful steps to address this and it sounds like it's more of uh in the future if you buy a cat try and keep it indoors but not like a clear like oh if you see a cat walking down the road take it into your home keep it inside like that we're just going to address this overnight yeah i think it's you know it'd be nice if we could just address things overnight. But I think of cats, like a lot of the big challenges that we've faced. Like, you think of smoking, how that was. Like, I know I grew up in the 80s, and so everyone still smoked everywhere. And it was a multi-year, like, you know, decades of transitioning to, you know, these multiple steps to reduce, like, you know, you can only smoke

in certain areas now. Like, you can smoke in your house. You can smoke only in certain places you can't smoke in restaurants and all that. It's moving slowly through these. steps where, you know, I talk with a lot of cat owners and, you know, people do what's best for the cat. They want to do what they think is best. And, you know, they think putting their cat outside gives it exercise, it gives the enrichment that they maybe they don't want to or can't provide at home or the cat's always been outside. So it's really hard to change habits. Like, just think of any habit that you have. It's super hard to change, right? As the same with cats. It's the same with cat owners. You know, it's really hard to change those habits. So it takes time. And

And it's also like, if you get another cat, like, let's start it off right. You know, there's lots and lots and lots of resources online. Like PCS, BCA has tons of resources on how to like keep your cat inside, provide it in Richmond, you know, making sure that it has different climbing structures. It has toys. You play with it. It gets exercise. All those different things are really key.

And it's much easier to do when you have a kitten that you start from that level than a cat that's been outside its whole life. Is there any other pieces you can. provide for people. I find individuals like yourself who have a deep understanding of the animal world or the behavior of animals, that there's a lot we can take away from your understanding of those topics. Is there anything else you can share in terms of what people can learn from the work you've done? Yeah, I think when it comes to cats, I think one of the big things that, like, I came from it of like reading those papers, like how many birds cats kill a year? So I came from that side. But once I

started, you know, talking and talking to people in cat welfare, talking to veterinarians, talking to cats, like, lots of cat owners to put their cats outside, talking to people that focus on how to improve welfare in people's homes for cats. It really started to make me kind of see the bigger picture. So I think having conversations for people. And so, you know, you, You know, cats are really divisive topic. And I think some people really hate cats. I hear that a lot. But also people really love cats.

And so there's all these different sides. So I think really trying to see where others are at and why they may have different views and values and kind of just trying to have that conversation. I think that's sort of the foundation of a lot of conservation is really people and how we can be better as a society. to help conserve our resources and so on. The first step to addressing a problem is starting to understand it,

and that's the work you're doing. How can people support the research you're doing? Well, sometimes we're looking for volunteers to take part in our research, but aside from that, I think trying to learn more, like, educate yourself, but like if you have, say, a pet cat, figure out, well, maybe after listening to this, go online, check out some of the SPCA or resources online. I think a few of the Nature Canada has great resources. The Sewer's Center of British Columbia has great resources on like how to provide enrichment

in the home, how to least train your cat. So, you know, maybe try to learn a little bit about like what you can do. And I recognize like, as I mentioned, it's maybe not your cat, you know, the cat now that you have that you put outside, but maybe your next cat. or maybe you start having conversation if you were kind of on the other side where you really don't like cats, starting to talk to people that maybe put their cats outside and find out, why? Why do they do that? And, you know, it's really, you know, people always like to do what they think is best. And there is certainly a large body of, you know, veterinarians and there are people

that think, you know, cats should be outside because of that wild side. And just, I think, trying to understand those different perspectives. I think any sort of big challenge, it's always good to understand the different values and perspectives of people. Brilliant. Elizabeth, I can't thank you enough for doing this. I think you've provided such insights on how people can proceed. I find birds and cats very interesting, and it's always a pleasure to interview people

like yourself who really understand the topic and help give us insights on how we can better relate to the wildlife around us. Yeah, thank you very much. You're a cat person, or are you a cat person because of constraints and would prefer to be a dog person? Wow, good with the questions. Look at you. You should be sitting in this chair. Yes, it's exactly that. When I was a kid, when we got Mo, it was because cat was a little bit more feasible. If we wanted a dog, it would have been a larger, like a German Shepherd, and that just wasn't feasible. at the time.

Hmm. And so now, what's your cat's name? It was Gizmo, but now it's Mo Mobius. Oh, I see. Got it. And Mo spends all or most of his time inside? 100% of the time inside. He goes on the balcony sometimes just to go soak up the sun, get some rays.

And has there ever been an attempt to fly from the balcony? Or no, he's quite contentist. One time we found him on the first floor balcony. Whoa. And we were on the third floor. Okay, that's one time you found him. That's all the data we have. We don't have recordings of him and how he got down there,

but he was perfectly happy on the first floor balcony. And when Elizabeth said, 300, 350, before she said million, I put the word thousand on. And this is in Canada. 350 million or 200 million birds dying a year? Yeah. Holy cow. And if I'm not mistaken, it's a billion in the U.S.

Yeah. Pretty good. Of course, right? It's going to be by a factor of whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And all like unconscious to people, right? like we're not monitoring what our cats are doing when we're not watching.

So it's this whole thing that you're not even paying attention to that's an issue. And that's how I found her. And it's a topic I've always found interesting because it's incredible that it can have that impact. But it's also fascinating that we own these animals and we have no idea what they're doing. A question I was wondering about was what percentage of the dwindling bird population is cats versus environmental factors. Right. Do you want my chair? No, no, it's a good question.

It's a good question. Interview with her. Yeah, I didn't know what to expect. I always enjoy diving into biology because it's an area where we relate, even if it's unconscious. We have an effect, even if we're not thinking about it. And I think of crows and seals and how their populations have just shot up, again, somewhat unconsciously to us because of how we deal with our garbage. Right. Interesting, for sure.

Here's my new big problem, though. We're good humans because we want to put our organics in these containers now, right? We're good people. We care. But now we've got rat problems, and we've got, like, at our apartment building, we've got, like, 50 different rat traps now. Wow. And it's like, well, like, benefit of, like, composting and all of these things,

is somebody sitting there weighing this with like increasing the rat populations and and how what's the scale is it all good increasing rat populations because I interviewed Aaron Ryan who works for the BC SPCA and she points out rat poison is horrible because the rat eats it gets out and then a bird eats it or a cat eat it and then they're poisoned and then something else eats that and then they're poisoned so it's not it's not like automatically better to do these and it's like I think about these issues and I'm like I hope somebody else is weighing these things because I am not proficient enough in this information I just know cause and effect when you try and do something good it can have negative ramifications see this is exactly why time travel is a bad idea there's all sorts of how did we get here did I did I miss something I don't know of time it's the unintended consequences. Everything is you do one thing or the butterfly effect or in this case the cat effect I had no idea about. But yes, if you've not watched Back to the Future, it's just, it goes south quick. Yeah, I feel, I worry about this. I'm all about taking care of the environment and understanding these issues, but I really do worry about putting it on individuals. Of course, we have a role to play but the example I like to use is this relationship with single-use plastics somehow we are we are as consumers taking the brunt of

the responsibility when it is absolutely industry and business that should be footing the bill for these impacts and when I think about now I'm asking for a bag it's 20 cents per bag well in the 1980s and 90s those those paper bags are free so why am I now paying for this when it's better for the environment, so you should incentivize business to use those instead. But that shouldn't come on to me as a consumer, and I want to play a role, but now we're just adding in these little extra charges. So when people are already stressed about going to the grocery store,

now we have to stress about whether or not you've brought an extra bag. And to be clear, those reusable bags are horrible for the environment, long term. In the short term, yes, you can use those more. than a plastic bag, but they are no better. And you are not a better person for having a hundred of those bags. That's not a long-term improvement. It's just offsetting a long-term problem. So I think about these issues a lot and get frustrated because I don't know what the right answer is, but I do worry about putting it too much on the individual. And don't get me started about paper straws. Oh, brother. If I go there, people lose sympathy for the argument because they go,

man up. They go, you can take off the lid, you can drink that side. Like, you can troop on. And I don't know, again, it's like putting it on the individual because there's this feeling of like, what, you need to do your part. And so you don't get to say anything. And it's like, this giant industry is making millions of dollars. And you don't think the paper bag industry saw an uptick in their sales and their profitability. Like, it's 100%. And somehow it's on me to know, foot the bill for this transition. Yeah. And the cities have instituted. aren't making any money from it. It's the stores are now able to buy more paper bags.

And like you said, the paper bag manufacturers are ringing their hands in delight. Exactly. Well, this was a bleak way to this today. Yeah, this was a bleak ending. As always, go check out the next episode. Very excited. We've got some big things coming, don't we, Tim? We certainly do.

Orvoa. Thank you.