Nuanced. - 12. Shanal Prasad: Lawyer, CPA & Business Owner

Episode Date: September 16, 2020

Shanal Prasad is a lawyer, Chartered Professional Accountant, and owner of Alpine Legal Services. He has also faced immense adversity throughout his life.Growing up near Langley, B.C., Shanal attended Kwantlen Polytechnic University where he graduated with his Bachelor of Business Administration majoring in Accounting. Throughout this time, he worked for his family business building and installing cabinets and doing home renovations, while also running his own tutoring business and volunteering in the community. It was during these times that Shanal developed a passion for working with small businesses and entrepreneurs, and providing assistance to those who need it.After graduating with his BBA, Shanal went on to obtain his CMA (now CPA) designation, while working in a variety of roles in industry. At this point, Shanal decided to pursue his dream of becoming a Lawyer, and enrolled in Thompson Rivers University’s Faculty of Law, where he obtained his Juris Doctorate. During the summers between law school, Shanal volunteered with the UBC Law Students’ Legal Advice Program where he provided free legal services to low-income persons.After law school, Shanal completed his articles at a law firm in the Fraser Valley where he also worked as an Associate. From there, Shanal branched off to start his own law firm, Alpine Legal Services, in Chilliwack where he presently resides. His practice areas include business law, real estate law, and wills and estates law. A firm believer in giving back, Shanal serves on the board of directors of Community Futures South Fraser, and also volunteers his services through Access Pro Bono. As a self-proclaimed "tech-geek", his approach to running his law firm is to fully embrace, utilize, and leverage the latest in technology as much as possible, and to ensure his practice is streamlined, flexible, and efficient in order to maximize value for his clients and to save them time and money.Shanal is a member in good standing with the Chartered Professional Accountants of British Columbia and Canada, as well as the Law Society of British Columbia and the Canadian Bar Association.Find Alpine Legal Services:https://alpinelawyers.business.site/Send us a textSupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Hello everyone and thank you for listening. My guest today has seen an immense amount of hardship. You wouldn't know it by his credentials, but he has experienced poverty, racism, violence, and an immense amount of doubt. His parents immigrated here from Fiji, both brought an amazing work ethic that is hard to comprehend. His father worked two jobs concurrently, from 7.30 a.m. to 3.30, then from 3.30 to midnight. My guest worked incredibly hard to get to the position that he's in today. He is a fully licensed lawyer and accountant. He created his own business called Alpine Legal Services, where he puts his accounting skills, marketing skills, business skills, and legal skills

together to offer a phenomenal services. Without further ado, please give it up from my guest, Chanel Prasad. And we're live. Chanel Prasad. Would you mind giving a brief introduction of yourself? All right. So, yeah, my name is Chanel. I'm a lawyer out here in Chilawak.

I'm my own practice, Alpine Legal Services. I just moved out here last October and started out my firm in November, so last November. But prior to that, myself and my fiance were both working out here for a couple years. and decided that Chilliwack, it would be the place to be for us, right? Just checked off all the boxes. So I said, you know what? Let's plant some roots here, set up shop here, and call this place a new home. Also, yeah, and then through my practice, I practiced in the areas of real estate law,

wills and estate's law, and business law. So it's my three practice areas, and I don't do litigation. So purely a solicitor's practice. Right now, it's just myself. I'm the only lawyer. but my focus is to basically do things different, right? So that's kind of the whole goal is, you know, law is always considered, you know, very old school kind of profession, very slow to change.

And there's reasons for that because with change comes a lot of risk. And risk is something that lawyers obviously don't like, especially risks for themselves, their business, and their clients, right? So, for example, technology, right? A lot of lawyers are kind of hesitant to embrace technology because with that comes, well, first of all, they don't understand it, and don't have the time to necessarily go ahead and figure it out to understand it. But second of all, what if client data gets breached?

What if we lose everything? What if all the data gets wiped out, right? So they're hesitant to, you know, trust new technologies or necessarily embrace them because of the risk involved. But for myself, you know, I do have a background in technology as well. So I feel more comfortable, you know, we're using technology and understanding the risks and trying to mitigate those risks. So I figured, you know, if I have that background, I have that experience, I have that unique skill set, why not set up a practice where, you know, I can make things more efficient,

more streamlined. And with that comes cost savings, time savings, and then pass that off onto the clients, right, and run a very lean efficient business model and build it from there, right? That is so interesting. I cannot wait to get into this. Tell us a little bit about Alpine Legal Services. Yeah, so, I mean, it's, so I guess I'll start with the name Alpine Legal Services, right? So people call me and they don't know if I'm a law firm. a notary firm, like they're kind of confused, right? It's intentional because it's a new way of branding. So from my experience, you have a lot of law firms and they go for, you know, last name and

last name LLP and company or lawyers and that kind of language intimidates clients, I find, right, where they feel like, oh, okay, if I call this firm, I'm going to have to pay a lot of monies to talk to them. They get intimidated. Off the bat, they just don't feel comfortable, right? So my thing is I want to create a brand that feels more approachable. And that's something that I think the notaries and their marketing and their branding for the longest time, they've had that, where they're more approachable in that sense, right? It's the marketing, right?

Where people always think about, hey, I should go to my notary for real estate transaction or whatnot, right? But as a lawyer who also practices in the area, you want to be more approachable, right? So I figured with my branding, with the color scheme, with the logo, the design, and the branding is to make it more approachable, right? So clients, you know, they come to me and they're automatically, they're not as intimidated, the more likely to want to open up and share as opposed to, you know, being afraid of being judged or opening up a kind of worms and not have to pay lots of money to deal with it, right? And, you know, but I try to get through all that and say, you know what, I'm going to build a brand separate from myself, build up that goodwill, create something that's approachable and people can engage with and try something different in that way.

Yeah, that's so cool because you're right. Often what happens is you put your name on a building and then people start to look at you as you're trying to be grandiose and show yourself off. And often that's part of the job is advertising yourself. But you've kind of removed that. And now Alpine Legal Services is its own thing. Just kind of like how it's not the Aaron Pete podcast. It's the bigger than me podcast where you make it more focused on something other than just yourself, which makes it more approachable to the individual. Yeah. That's so cool. What else are you going? What else is going on? Because you're doing a great job of branding and putting out great merchandise to bring people in.

Yeah, it's, um, see, my, my background is, um, I worked for Labrouries and the marketing team as well after, after university. So this is before law school, um, before I became an accountant, I was working for them. And you get an idea of how really high level marketing works, right? It's very cutthroat. It's very competitive. And every, they think of everything, right? And it's a marketing machine, right?

When you're operating at that level, you've got to pull out all the stops, right? And then you also see how some of the smaller players in that market, what they do and how they compete with large established brands with millions of dollars in marketing budgets, right? And so with that experience, you know, I got to see things differently in terms of marketing and just the way, just how all these little details matters, right? So, for example, my first piece of swag was a pen, right? Alpine legal services pen.

People love it. I've got clients that come in. they take it like a fistful of pens and they just walk out, right? And they love it. And it's every little detail though, right, that went into that. It's, it sounds silly because it's just the pen, but it's the details that matter, right? So I was signing some paperwork one day. This is before I came with the idea. And it was another law firm's pen. And it was very flimsy and it kind of fell apart when I was writing with it, right? And you can tell it was very cheaply made. It's very low quality. And now imagine clients using that at home, right? And it falls apart. What are they going to

think, right? They're going to have a negative impression. Like, oh, I'm signing this document. I'm in a hurry. I'm not going to find another pen. And they look at the brand and they say, wow, this company, you know, they made some really cheap product, right? And, you know, that's negative, right? You paid money for that pen. It handed it out and now you create a negative impression, right?

So for myself, I was like, you know what, I want something that's sturdy, that's attractive to use, that feels comfortable to use. And so put all that effort in, found the right pen, which I've only found one supplier that has that kind of pen, right? did my own, you know, graphics, got everything lined up, and just got some made and figured, you know what, we'll see how this goes. And it's interesting because a lot of clients, they like it, because they like writing with it. They take some home, right? They even take some to hand out to other people. And the interesting thing, too, is I had a client come in, and this person had

they were going in for emergency surgery. So they had a progressive condition, and now they're losing sensation in their limbs. And so I met with them kind of last second to help them out with some few things, because if they ended up passing away during surgery, they wanted to make sure at least their bases recovered in regards to their state. So as a result, that difficulty signing, though, because they couldn't really move their hands. My pen fit perfectly into their hand, and they were able to actually write with it. And they were so happy to be able to just write because they weren't able to properly write with anything else that they had. And it just brought them so much happiness, right? And they were like super stoked about it. And I didn't anticipate that,

right? I never thought in that much detail, but I've had a few clients who are like that, right? And it's like I said, you know, it's interesting to see what can happen, right? So I put that much detail, that much attention to details, everything I do, right? So even the phone wallets that I hand out, they've got the stands built in with the little pop socket kind of thing, right? And that's pretty neat, right? Because now you're appealing to people who not just need a phone wallet, but maybe people who just want the pop socket kind of thing to hold on to use of the stand. So now you've expanded the amount of people that would be interested in having that product. And it looks different, right?

It's blue and gray as posted as black, right? So it stands out a bit more, right? It's more attractive. People want to rock it, right? Got tukes, got umbrellas, and it's all carefully designed and planned. And, you know, because like I said, you want to build an attractive brand that people want to represent. Even if it's, you know, yeah, law firm in Chilowak, but they might even find the design attractive, right? And they want to represent that and people ask about it, right?

And, you know, you got to pull all the stops when it comes to market. Absolutely. And I had that experience as well with pens. When I was at the native court workers, we would have these really high quality pens that lit up. and they were a little bit more sturdy, and people preferred those, and I'd hand them out to sheriffs, crown counsel, lawyers, to try and build relationships. And they absolutely did that because it isn't always the big things where you're investing in a giant logo on the front of a newspaper. It's what can you do for the client that's right in the room. And it seems like

you're really good at figuring out how to advertise and work with the client that is in your office and less worried about getting it out to every single person in Chilliwack. You're more focused on making it a positive experience for the person who's in there with you, right then and there. And that's so unique. So can you tell us a little bit about the business model because you have an accounting background, a law degree, and marketing experience? That seems like the trifecta of an effective marketing and business operation system. So can you tell us a little bit about how you bring all those three things together? All right. So yeah, before I was a lawyer, I was an accountant. So I had my CPA designation at the time was a CMA. So CMA is certified

management accountant, right? So my interest in accounting, I wasn't really too interested in the financial accounting, so like the day-to-day bookkeeping payroll kind of stuff. I liked management accounting is what they call that area. And what it does is you focus more on costing, budgeting, and a lot of analysis. So one of the things I really like is analyzing what they call the value chain, right? So you think about your clients. And every step of their relationship with you, you map out, right?

So from the time you first engage with them, right? Or even before that, your attempts to engage with them, right? Straight through the point where, you know, they become a client, they solve their matter. You solve their matter with them. They paid the bill and they moved on and then mad your relationship afterwards. So every step in between, what are you doing for them? Right? You list everything out.

And then along the way, what am I doing? So real estate transaction, let's say, right, client comes in. What's every step of the process? List it all out and think about every step. and does this add value to the client or not? If it does add value, how can I add more, how can make it more valuable, right? And how can I do it a more cost-effective way?

If it doesn't add value, why are you doing it? Right. Is there a way to automate that function then? Is there a way to just eliminate that step if it doesn't have value to the client? So when you start thinking about what adds value to the client and how can I deliver that in the most cost-effective way possible, and the most effectively possible,

and the numbers work out, now you're working towards having a much more streamlined, more effective service delivery. And because I have experience in that, I can regularly look at my business processes and think about ways to just do things better because there's always ways to do things better, right? Just no matter putting the time, the effort, the energy, and really looking at things, right? And I find that having that experience is very helpful because when you're in law, you're not necessarily a business person, right? All kinds of people going to law, which is great, but it's a diverse profession, and that's the way it should be. But when you're running a business day to day and you don't have any business experience, you don't really see some of these details, right?

So from my experience anyway, seeing how some firms are run, they just go overboard on the overhead. And they don't think about these things. So you end up with a lot of bloated costs. And the way you can get around that is just by charging more. But that's not necessarily, the clients want to pay that bill. And if you have competitors who are doing things better, more efficiently, how are you going to compete with them? On an ongoing basis, if you have a lot of overhead that you can't really deal with. So that's one of the things I learned looking at other firms, working for other firms, et cetera, is, you know,

what do these people do really well? And what are some of the areas that they could be doing a lot better, right? And you see things like, for example, higher turnover, right? That's a cost. And I've talked to some other conveyancers out here and just in the Valley in general. And you notice in some industries that more senior staff are being replaced with junior staff because they're cheap. But the thing is that when you have the junior staff, you're also paying to train them. They're going to make mistakes you have to fix.

And hopefully it's nothing too serious. But now you're investing in them, right? And there's no guarantees that once they learn the rope, so they're going to necessarily stay, right? So it's a gamble, but at the same time, we've more experienced staff. If they've been with you for a long time, they're obviously loyal, they know what they're doing. You can be more hands off with them. And but when you do the math, you know, is it justified? And in my opinion, yes, right?

But some other firms, they think that going the model of, yeah, getting rid of them turning over and that kind of stuff, makes more sense. But from I've seen, that just makes things way more expensive and more difficult. But you start to analyze businesses and so you think about it. it this way. And then you realize that the decision making thing goes on behind the scenes, there's really not a lot of thought really put into it sometimes. And like I said, the end of the day, all that becomes overhead, all it becomes extra costs, and all that gets passed on to the client. So if I can find ways to analyze my business in that much detail and do things better, now I've got a business model that's really hard to compete against.

Exactly, because you built it from the foundation and you were aware of what you were doing. I know a lot of people who go through something similar, but not in a business model, people who will take jobs at a place that maybe was paying them $20 an hour, which is above maybe what the market is asking for. And these people will build their lifestyle around the job that they've just accepted, even though they didn't have the credentials. So I know people who have these $20 an hour jobs and they've got a $40,000 car now, rental payments, and they're now stuck. They can't get out because they've built their life around this job that they now require. Now they can't go to a $15 an hour job and work that to save money.

And so that's kind of similar to what you're saying, which is law firms kind of build themselves into a position where they don't have as much negotiating power with what their overhead costs are. And so I think that that's important for people to understand because there's a lot of businesses that do this completely by accident and completely because they're more focused on the product they're putting out or whatever their endeavor is.

They're more focused on that. And I think that that's so interesting and so important for people to understand that you thought of all of these things before you named it before you did anything, you were thinking of how do I do this the right way that is going to be sustainable for the long term. And that's why I think that Alpine Legal Services is going to be run for a really long time. Because again, your competition can't out cut you because you've already thought of all the details of how the pen works to how the business model is going to be laid out. Can you tell us a little bit more about how the accounting affects your

business? Because that is such an interesting thing that I do think a lot of lawyers and a lot of people lack is the word accounting. Everybody knows it. But it is incredibly intimidating to So can you just tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah. So, I mean, with the financial accounting side of things, I've integrated a lot of my practice management software with my accounting software. So I purposely adopted programs that work together. And you set up the accounts in such a way where it's super efficient, right?

So if a lot of it can sync up and be automated off the bat, then my accountant has a much easier time, you know, dealing with all the books, getting reports that much sooner, which you need the, when it comes to financial information, you want that as soon as possible, so you can make decisions. So if you've got a really complicated accounting system, it's a huge mess, and you don't really find out actual numbers until much later. It's too late to really use that to make a decision, right? So you want your accounting system to be as smooth as possible,

A, because law studies a lot of rules regarding reconciliations, especially for trust accounts, which for good reason. And, you know, B, law firms move so fast. So you need to make sure every process you have is, just as quick, right? Because if you're looking to catch up on files, like the accounting on files from like months ago, you're so far behind. If you discover a mistake or an error or something like that, you know, the client suffers, right? So if your accounting is really smooth, it's really synced up and you've got a really, you know, a really simple system, it just works not much better,

right? So for me, my financial accounting process is, I'm still trying to find out in place. I just hired a CPA as my accountant, right? So we're getting all that together. But yeah, right now it's it's really smooth sailing for that right everything that's out i can and that also reduce my overhead because i'm paying less on accounting fees because my system is so efficient i get the information that much quicker and i can leverage it a bit more right and then when i look at my numbers and then you have the actuals right so when you look at your numbers look everything line by line no matter how small the cost and think about well how can i cut costs in this area right and it's interesting it's an interesting exercise because some people just look at budgeting and

say okay you know what i'm covering my expenses making so money for myself i'm good right but that's not necessarily you know the best long-term approach to building your business because once you've tacked on a lot of overhead it's hard to go back later on and try to cut right because now you're too busy it's it's really hard to then change things after the factory when the machines are already built right um so for myself every step along the way when i'm getting into new contracts and you pick up new services what's the most cost effective way for me to to have this um business function or this activity dealt with, right? And like, even for example, my office space, I work out of the co-work space, right? Much cheaper rent than having a separate, you know, commercial office.

And like I said, comes down to the value chain, right? What do clients, when they come to someone for, let's say, real estate services, what do they want? Do they care about the fact they have an army of assistance? They care about the fact they've got a massive building. They don't care about that at all, right? A lot of them, it comes down to, they want to make sure they, they reach out to something, they can get a hold to someone, they can get answers that they need, and they can get the service done in a quick matter in a way that saves the money, right, in a way that's cost effective. And having a big office does not add value to any of that, right? So cut out, you know, all those bells and whistles, it's focus on, you know, the core service and do that

really well. And then there you go, right? That's how you build it. And the co-work part is so cool because that's also a way of facilitating more relationships and becoming more community oriented where other law firms, if you go into the big ones, they're disjointed, they aren't really connected with the community, maybe their locations are really good, but they are their own space completely different from everything else. But when you go to co-work Chilliwack, you're seeing a bunch of different people all doing the best they can working and trying to cut those costs and trying to be as effective and efficient as possible. And so you're in a community of people already that kind of support your ambitions and you can work together in a more holistic environment. Yeah. And that's actually huge because when I first learned about the co-work space, I was going to their startup grind event, right? So every month they do a startup grind. Well, not now, obviously. But before they used to the monthly startup grind events, right? So they feature local entrepreneurs, local business owners. And you go there and you hear the story and you have networking. And it's a really cool building. And that's when I first got to see the place, look around. And I said, this is a really cool building. You know, so Tim McAlpine, he's owner of currency marketing. You know, the only the space and, you know, the attention of detail I went into making that space, right? Like, you've seen it.

The studio, the way the officer designed is set up what they offer, it's a really nice space. It's one of the better spaces I've seen, right? The best space I've seen, actually, right? And I was really impressed. And I said, you know what, I would really have to open up shop here one day, right? I like the space, like the community behind it, the support behind it. You get clients that walk in and they're like, wow, this is a really cool space. And they want to, they want to look around, right?

And it's, it's good to see that because people appreciate the technology that went into it, like the design aspects. And I really, you know, congratulate Tim on that. He's really thought that through, right, him and his team. So, you know, when I went there, I said, you know what, when I'm looking for an office space, this is the place I want to be, right? The location, it's really central, right next to all the banks, the real estate board. It's really central, easy to find for people, get a nice office space. There's lots of perks to being a member of their space and the community behind it too, right? You got so many businesses working out of that space, right?

and my first client on my own was a member of that space and they just walked downstairs and said, hey, can you help me with this? And then another person walked downstairs, hey, can you help me with this? And just, you know, a couple weeks ago, someone walked upstairs to my office and said, hey, can you help me with, you know, like a mortgage, right? So it's cool because you're part of that community, right? You're part of that space. And I like that. You're surrounded by entrepreneurs. You're surrounded by your business owners and I have a passion for business, right? So my other practice area is also in business law, and I just love being around small business. So for me, being there just makes that much more sense.

And yeah, I'm glad that we have a space like that in Chilawak, right? Yeah, it's so unique because I didn't even know about it until I started doing the podcast, and I was looking into what other podcasts are going on in Chilawak. And then co-work obviously has a space specifically for podcasting, and I was very interested in that space. And I think that that is so important because now you're, you've reduced the overhead cost of having office, but you're also now connected to people who might need your business where if you were in an office by yourself and where you're renting isn't going to be worried about whether or not you're getting more business, but co-work is there to kind of facilitate and help and support

you in that? And I think that that's awesome. Can you tell us a little bit about the business side of things and what kind of work you're looking for through Alpine Legal Services? What goes on there? So right now my focus is on building the real estate practice, right? So the way I want to build things is I want to focus on one area at a time, right? So even though most of my background is in business law, I still have a real estate background as well, and that's an area that I want to build first. So for me right now, that's in the residential conveyancing space. So purchases, sales, refinancings, private real estate deals. I want to build a really good base for that first, hire some conveyancers, and build up that before I go into more commercial real estate.

At the same time, I'm also focusing on wills and estates, but wills and estates is an area that, like, like, for example, when I have conveyance and clients come in, I give them, you know, coupon for 10% off their wills and estate planning package. Because buying a house, you know, selling a house that there's, in these major life events, you want to get your state planning looked at, right? Maybe people haven't thought about it yet, but now you've given them an incentive to get that done, and you get that done through you, right? And once you've helped someone, you know, with the real estate transaction and you help them their state planning, you know, they're going to come back to you for something else in the future.

right because you got to know them pretty well they know you pretty well you know the service which while they came back and you've got that relationship right now you've scored yourself a good client relationship and that's only going to you know paid evidence because if you never deal with a lawyer in your life at the very least you're going to deal with them at some point regarding real estate or a mortgage if you're you know going to be getting into the housing market or getting your wills and estate planning done at the very least you have to deal with those things right so for me if i can be you know that lawyer um and win that relationship um like I said, that that pays dividends, right?

So I've got past clients who, you know, they have someone they know and they're going through maybe a separation of divorce. Maybe they go into a motor vehicle accident, right? And they're talking to this person and say, do you know a lawyer you can help me with this? And they say, well, I don't know a lawyer who can do that, but I have a lawyer that I've used before for this transaction. Why don't you give them a show and they can refer you to someone who takes care of that if they don't themselves, right?

So then I get all kinds of calls asking for doing any family lawyers, do any personal energy lawyers, right? Criminal lawyers. And, you know, then I can refer them to people that I know and trust who do good work in that area, right? And then again, they work with them. They get a good relationship with them going. And they appreciate me making that connection as well. Absolutely. So, you know, it's the way I look at it is trying to build real estate, but that's a, that to me is a good way to start because you get more clients in the door that way. And you can build that into other relationships and build that into your network, right? Make other connections with people.

and that will then translate into me building on my other practice areas as well, right? So it's just a really good base to have. And I do enjoy the real estate work too, right? Because you're dealing people who, you know, first-time home buyers, it's very exciting for them. That's cool to be part of that process, right? And people is going through life changes.

Sometimes you get investors as clients and you get to pick their brain for a bit and, you know, learn more about what they do. And, you know, you get all kinds of clients that come in, right? And it's really cool to just, you know, meet them, get to know them. And that's part of what I like about high volume work, right? Is they're always meeting new people, right?

as opposed to if you're dependent on a few big business clients, you get to deal with them all the time, but it's good to always, I don't know, I like meeting people all the time, right? So for me, that kind of have volume work. I, you know, I find myself enjoying that. That's awesome. Can you tell us a little bit about what conveyancing is?

Some of the viewers might not know exactly how that works or what goes on there. Yep. So when you're looking to purchase or sell real property, the first step is for people, they usually contact their real-term mortgage broker, right? Find out what they can qualify for, go house hunting.

And once they found the house, they make an offer and they get an accepted offer, great. Then you have subject removal, and the realtor does all of that, right? And so once subjects are removed, now you've got a fully binding contract. And at that point, the file then goes to, you know, the lawyer-notary. Sometimes it's a referral from the realtor. Sometimes it's the client that finds their own realtor notary or lawyer-notary. And then you get sent the copy of the contract along with the instructions on the firm of the realtor's brokerage in terms of commissions, dates, deadlines, who's the other side's lawyer,

notary, and then now you've got a deal, right? And so you go through the, you know, you go through the paperwork, you get all the documents ready, and then you sign, let's say it's a purchase, you sign the purchase documents with the client, you have the other side sign their sellers documents, you get the mortgage document signed to the client as well, figure out all the numbers, let the client know what they have to bring in, and answer any questions they may have, right? They may have questions regarding property transfer tax, GST, first-to-home-buyers exemption, different things that come up on title, right? They want to know about what happens in this event or this event.

What if we figure this out? What's title insurance about, right? So they have all kinds of questions, and, you know, and they want answers. So you should make the time out to answer those questions, right, for your clients. Because this is a significant life decision for them, right? What does a purchase or sale? So, you know, you help them out, answer the questions, even the realtorment of questions. So before the deal even become subject-free, they may call you up and say, you know,

hey, Chanel, I found this thing on title. what should I do about this or I'm having trouble tracking this information down. How would I go about getting it, right? So sometimes, you know, the realtor is reaching out to beforehand. And then you see the deal come to your desk. Everything is kind of completed, right? But yeah, so they come to you, the other paperwork signed, you answer the questions, the don't have to bring in, and then deal with any issues that come up, right?

So one of the advantages of being a lawyer is you can provide that kind of legal advice, right? So if you have clients in a position where I had one client who they entered into a purchase contract, subjects are all removed and then it came out afterwards property is a former grow-out property that was never disclosed never really it was it was you know it's definitely very shady listing right so a client is now in a subject-free contract and now they're stuck with the deal to buy a home that was a former grow-op right what can you do right so now there's a lot of issues involved right can they still get financing what other issues are there in the home because your typical home inspection is not going to be as detailed

as it should be for a grow-up operation. So you need an inspection done again. Your insurance company can't even get insurance anymore. And what if you wanted to terminate the deal? What does it look like for you in terms of your deposit, your legal rights? What does the argument look like? So you can take over for that for the client. You can advise them on those matters, right?

Whereas if a notary is involved, they can't give that legal advice. They wouldn't want to give the legal advice for liability reasons. Now the clients go find a lawyer last second to deal with that, right? So when you do have a lawyer involved, we're able to step. been in those kind of situations and provide the client with advice and you know if push comes to shove you can at least represent them yeah right so that deal ended up closing thankfully and the you know that's what the client wanted right you managed to make it work but it definitely took a lot of legal wrestling to make that happen yeah so what would you say so somebody's sitting down with a

realtor and the realtor's like well we already use a notary or we already use this giant behemoth law firm what would your pitch be to them where you say we are different in these ways yeah Yeah. So what I say to them is we offer more in terms of service offerings, right? So for everybody involved. So for realtors, I run seminars. So I go to brokerages and talk about topics of interest like, you know, dealing with leasehold interests and property. Right. So First Nations land transactions, we have leasehold interests. How do they work? Right. So I run seminars like that for realtors, right? And it contributes to their development and their understanding. And, you know, they appreciate that. I make myself available to answer whatever questions realtors in my house. I've had realtors call me up, ask me questions. about certain things on title, certain transactions, et cetera. And then for the client themselves, to get the better price point, like I said, I keep my cost down as much as possible, pass the savings onto the client. So my goal is if I can sustainably deliver the best prices in the Fraser Valley, while still making a healthy margin for myself, now I've got a competitive advantage that can't easily meet.

So I win that. I went on the price point. And in terms of service delivery, like I said, you have to make yourself available to answer questions for clients, right? So they're like having that point of contact. And if you start passing clients off or ignoring them and stuff like that, it's like, oh, you know, it's a small file. I'm not going to deal with it. That's a great way to lose business and get negative word of mouth, right? So, you know, to some people, don't be saving time or just a really silly question. But no, you know, it means a lot to the client. That's why they're reaching out

to you? Help them out. And if you're not willing to do that, why are you practicing this area? That's just the part of the game, right? So focusing on the client service delivery and in multiple ways, right it's not just to answer the questions it's also being available in terms of um i've extended hours of operation until seven because i find a lot of younger younger families um they got kids they want to be able to um meet after work hours um maybe they want to house visit that's especially valuable for those with children um like i've signed up real estate documents with people while they're feeding their kids at home and it just makes sense for them right um that way they don't have to take time off of work because that's a cost to the client they take time off of work

if they're paid on hourly wage, they lose that money, right? If they have to hire babysitter, they lose that money. So if you're only open 9 to 5, Monday to Friday, you're losing, you're inconveniencing the client in a lot of ways. So for me, especially in this day and age, everyone's used to convenience, right? We can order everything online same day. Your realtor comes to you.

Your mortgage brokers, you know, they can come to you as well. They can meet you at coffee shops, right? Whatever it takes to get the deal done, you know, everyone else is doing it. But the last piece of the puzzle, you know, the lawyer or the not consistent with that, right? So when I talk to realtor's the mortgage broker, I say, you know what, you guys do a lot of the heavy lifting, you know, I think the last piece of puzzle should be the same. It should be cohesive, should be consistent. I mean, in theory, a client can buy and sell a house, get a mortgage and all that kind of stuff without even

leaving their house, right, except for to do some viewings, but they don't even have to leave their house to get all that stuff done, right? So the potential is there for really convenient service offering and a really great price, but who's doing that? Who's delivering that, right? So that's my pitch to, you know, referral partners to clients is, you know, you get service delivery in all aspects, you get the better price point, you get someone just committed to your development, why go anywhere else, right? What's your reason for going anywhere else, right? And if you have people you've already worked with and you're just referring to them just because, and it's like, well, your client's going to pay more and probably not get the same value added services. So what's the real incentive there for them, right? What's, you know, what's really keeping you tethered, right? And if I can get the message out there to realtors, mortgage brokers, and clients, especially clients, if you can get directly to the client and market to them, they're going to ask those questions too. You know, hey, why are you referring to this person when I should be going to Alpine because

they offer what I need at a better price. I've called around and I want to work with them, right? So the goal is to get to that point, right, where the word spreads and, you know, people realize, like, you know, hey, why go anywhere else, right? So that's my objective is to build a business where, you know, there is no answer that question. Why go anywhere else? Right? Because there's no reason to.

That's awesome. And I think that that's so important because I think one common thing we always see is lawyers with egos. That's how most shows are set up to instill that, like suits, the good wife. They're all set up in a way that really promotes the idea that lawyers are something different and they have a different type of brain. And what you're showing is that you are open to removing the ego from the law firm altogether. and really just working on getting the correct work done and being that person that people can call. Because that is a huge problem is if you pick up a phone and call a big law firm, you're getting put through to an assistant,

and then you're being put on weight or being told to call back later or they will call you back later. That isn't instilling confidence in the person paying real money to try and get a service. And yours obviously is because you're willing to put in that work and be so flexible. That's so amazing that you're able to work till seven, and you're open to that to make sure. that the business succeeds because obviously you're making a personal sacrifice to be available during that time what is that what is the future look like in terms of that because obviously that's a great service but that's obviously going to put a lot of weight on you personally yeah yeah and that's and that's part of the game right is when you're running your own business you're working

all the time anyways like there's always something that needs to be done even if it's not related to a client file maybe has to do with getting remittance is done working on your marketing you've got meetings for you know like marketing meetings and stuff like that you've got there's always something to do right there's always something on your plate so i figured you know if i'm gonna be working those hours anyways um i might as well open up a couple appointments lots um just be there in case clients need it right and there's been a lot of times where that's come in really handy for clients but sure last second issues and you know i'm there to deal with it right so in that sense like yeah you know it is a commitment on my end but that's part of having your own business as well

is even if your hours are nine to five, oftentimes, like I've seen other lawyers, their hours might be nine to five, but they're in the office until late anyways, right? They don't leave at five. They just use that time to finally focus on getting some other stuff done, right? So when you're in the,

when you're, you know, a lawyer, even if you're an associate at another firm, whether it's a small firm, large firm, or if you're on your own, you're always working around the clock anyways. And it's not because you're necessarily, it's not because you're, you know, boss or whoever's telling you,

oh, you have to stay here for, long hours, whatever it is, it's your clients. They need stuff done. And if you're going to always shine your clients, you're not going to have any clients. So, you know, like, for example, you know, Friday, yesterday, I had a few files where I was waiting to hear back from like the court registry, waiting back to hear from the other side. And I wasn't expecting to hear back for a while. But lobehold, I hear back on all of those files on the exact same day at the exact same time. Now I've got a lot of work to do. And if I don't do it, who suffers? The client suffers, right? So now you're working weekends, trying to make things work, right? And it's no different.

Like, if I was an associate at a big firm in the same position, I'm doing the exact same thing, right? You're staying up, you're working late, and you're just getting the job done. Because then the day, that's part of being a lawyer, right? You're getting stuff done. So for me, adding that 5 to 7 appointment availability does not really change the course of my day. matter if I was on my own working from the firm, it's pretty much the same, right? So it's just part of being a lawyer, right? Yeah, that's one really cool part, though, is because you have this hunger inside of you where you are trying to do every single thing correctly. And I think that that is something that I really want people to start to understand is that it isn't just about doing the

one big project perfectly and nothing else. It's about getting the pen right. It's about getting the hours correct. And building these relationships from the ground up, And that's what's going to make you sustainable. And so I'm curious as to how all of this came to be where you wanted to start this practice and where that came from within you, because you are putting in the work, you're willing to work the weekends, and you've got this fuel inside you. And I think it's coming across that you are willing to do whatever it takes to try and make sure that this succeeds and willing to make the sacrifices necessary to make that happen. And I think that that's important for people because people stay at jobs for 20 years and never progress and then wonder what the heck happened. and you're waking up every single day with this hunger. And that's how I feel about the podcast, is I'm waking up.

If it's 7 p.m., I'm going to keep editing, even if it's in the background, trying to accomplish just a little bit more, keep moving forward, and never letting my foot off the gas. What has that been like for you? It's my comfort zone, right? That's like, I'm someone who, when there's a lot of pressure, that's when I do my best. So when the stakes are high, there's lots of pressure, that's when I really shine. And I've learned that about myself, right?

When things are slow and you don't really feel challenged, that's when I just fall off, right? That's when I become sluggish. I can't get stuff done. I need that high pressure, right? That's just how I work. So for me, in addition to that, I've always been surrounded by entrepreneurs, right? My dad's business owner, and I've seen how smaller businesses can really, you know, lift families, right?

You have people to come, you know, from other countries. They probably have difficulty with language, right? They've got skills that aren't recognized here in this country, right? And they've got a dream. And a lot of those dreams, you know, they start up a business. They plug away for so many years, right, decades and decades. And now they've built something. And their family's been lifted out of poverty, right?

And I've seen that happen from a very eyes time and time again. And at the end of the day, it's all come down to just sheer hard work. And I find that, you know, some people, and when you meet a lot of people of natural entrepreneurs, they have that ability where if a problem comes up, they don't complain about to deal with this or whatever. they think about how can I get this done, right? They think about ways to move forward and succeed and just constantly be progressing. You know, they don't have that mentality where, oh, what was me kind of thing, right?

They're always plugging away. And, you know, and I've seen that. I've seen that my whole life, right? So that's how I develop a passion for business, right? Is I really respect that spirit and drive. And that's what I say is every time I meet business owners, right? It's like, you know, some people will say, I don't like this person because of this. And I say, you know what?

At the end of the day, you always have to respect them for, going their own way, doing their own thing, making their decisions, and nobody can take that away from them, right? When I build no business, nobody can take that away from me, right? And that's, you feel very proud of what you accomplish. And when people leave your good reviews, people see good things about your practice, your firm, people refer you clients and files because they believe in you, the trust, you know, to support your business, that feels really good. And to know that you built that, you know, it's very humbling and it's very, you know, it just motivates me even more, right? So for me, um, that, um, that, um, that,

drive has always just come naturally, right? And like I said, when I'm in the deep fryer, that's when I do my best. So when you mix all that together, for me running my own business, it's natural for me, right? And building it, I've got some pretty large goals and, you know, I'm going to plug away every day until I achieve them. Yeah. And if you've got a plan, you've got a, if you got a goal, you've got plans to achieve it and you work really hard, just a matter of time before you accomplish, right? That's one thing I've learned in life is if you've got division your head and you can break it down to little steps and just keep plugging away, you're going to accomplish, right? And that's just the way it is. And I've seen that.

I've been through that. And that's my plan for Alpine is the same, right? Just keep plugging away, doing good work and building the business to the best it can be. That's awesome. I did have one person asked me, they were like, well, is your podcast about role models or is it about small businesses? And in my mind, it was like, well, often they're one in the same. The people who are willing to go out there and decide whatever their passion is, whether it's the law, whether it's the town butcher and meat, whether it's Garrison Running Cohen's shoes, people are committing to, this is something I'm interested in, this is something I want to know more about, I'm going to start my business, it's going to be based around shoes, and I'm going to learn everything there is, and then I'm

going to try and get people the product that they really want, or that's going to make them run longer, better, get the house at a more affordable price, do these things, and that's what makes small business owners role models is because they've committed to whatever their endeavor is and they're pushing it every single day for the most part obviously there's some where they're not putting in that and they've been doing it for 20 years but i'm talking about the individuals like yourself who are really passionate about what they're doing and willing to put in that extra mile that is a role model because maybe your passion isn't shoes or the law but you can certainly see them and their passion for whatever their endeavor is and appreciate and respect the fact that again nobody can take that

from them and that they've built something from the ground up and worked really hard at that and that's something to admire and respect about people when they're able to put that in. What made you name it alpine legal services? Because obviously it makes sense that you've moved away from using your own name, but what made alpine legal services? It was interesting. I'm trying to think back at that time. I wanted something to do with the mountains.

I've always been a fan of the mountains, right? And out here in Chilwack, you've got a lot of mountain terrain, and it's just really beautiful to look at an experience, and it's just, you know, just, it's just part of the beauty of the valley, right? I wanted, I wanted something that ties me, my brand to the valley. And that's why, you know, I picked, you know, that sort of design. And I just thought, and we think about all the different names that I could have chosen along those lines. Some of them are already taken by other firms. Some of them are taken by other businesses with similar names, et cetera. But when I thought about Alpine. I was like that. I mean, I get messages all the time from people thinking I'm

Alpine Legal Services from Colorado, which is pretty neat. But my gosh, you got tagged in one of their social media posts. I'm like, just so you know, I'm a smaller firm out here in Chilliwack. I'm not, I'm not that organization in Colorado. But, you know, so that's how the Alpine and the Mount Cassidy kind of came around. And legal services, I found, I just think it sounds, it gets to the point. What do you do legal services? But it's generic enough to not put people away in terms of, let's say, if I say Alpine real estate lawyers, right? They're going to think they just do real estate. And then they see lawyers in it, right? And so, okay, you know, their law firm, it's going to be more expensive. I should just go somewhere else, right? But legal services I found

is neutral enough. It gets the point across. It does it. It's generic enough to not, to appeal to a broader client base. And so when I combine the two and go outpine legal services, I figured, you know, I think that's the way to go where, you know, people see that connection, you know, to the mountains, to the community, to Fraser Valley. They can see legal services. They understand legal services means, right? So it just has that broad appeal. And that's why I selected that name. And so you do the real estate part, but can we talk a little bit more about the other things you're interested in moving towards? Yeah. So like I said, real estate's area trying to really develop right now business law as well like I said I've grown up around entrepreneurs I've

always been into entrepreneurship ever since I was like in high school university even I was like I went to business school I've always been involved in small business initiatives I was even a member of Vancouver trade I was in the small business committee for a bit too and now I'm volunteering with community future South Fraser as well I'm on the board of directors so whatever I can do to get involved with small business you know that's that's what I really like doing so it'd be great to, you know, once I got the real estate practice kind of built up and streamlined and good to go, then I can shift my focus to building more of the business side of things, right? And I'm going to do that differently as well, right? So part of what I'm experimenting with

is how do I, you know, deliver better value for business clients, right? And I mean, first off, if I have a business client, they're dealing with not just a lawyer, but also a business owner. And the mentality is very different. When you're viewing things as an associate, another firm, and talking with a client, the way they talk to you, what they share with you, it's definitely very different from talking with you

as a business owner of a law firm, right? It's very different. And I find that, you know, there's more understanding there, right? So, you know, so when I talk to them about, about business issues,

things that they're facing, I've probably dealt with the same thing. And I can talk to them one on one about it, right? So they get the advantage talking to someone who has been there, done that as well, is also on their business journey,

who's also a lawyer, and who also has that accounting background. So I understand the numbers and I can talk to them about things like that, right? Not giving them accounting advice because I can't do that in my capacity as a lawyer, but I can at least understand their business not much better, right?

So when they deal with me, they're getting someone who has all that along with the technology background as well, right? And the marketing experience. So they get someone who does have that background in business. So when they're talking to me, they're getting advice from a more multifaceted approach as opposed to just, I only know the law.

right and I think that adds a lot of value right for business owners and that also makes it that also makes you a more valuable addition to their team because you are working with their accountant and the other professionals they have right so there is that value off the bat and the second thing I'm trying to really focus on is maybe a different pricing model for business clients right so one of the things I was thinking about is even like a subscription based model right so if you're a smaller business you've got things that come up throughout the year sometimes it's Excuse me, a smaller issue. Like, okay, we got, you know, a contract that we're trying to whip up here, et cetera.

Can we just get this done, right? Sometimes it's a larger issue where now we've got this on our hands. We don't know how to deal with it. It's going to cost us a bit of money. And maybe they don't have the money to that month to cover that kind of expense, right? So maybe they want to, you know, have some more certainty when they call their lawyer, right? So what I'm thinking about offering is you pay a monthly fee and you are basically prepaying for a bulk amount of, legal services at a discounted rate right so that way you pay a monthly rate but you can call

me up for x amount of hours in a year and it's all included in that right so it smooths the expenses out over the months so that way there's no you know cash one stability where we get a legal problem this month we spent a thousand dollars to solve it it smoothed out a bit more and because they know they're prepaying for x month of hours they're more likely to get legal advice because sometimes people want to save money they don't get legal advice when they probably should and not like themselves into a bind right so they're more likely to call call you then as a lawyer and then you can have that more really better relationship with them because then you feel more approachable to them right so maybe that's the way to go but you know it's it's a new idea right and I'm still kind of

testing water to see if business clients would be interested in a service like that right but at the end of the day it's it's about trying to do things differently in a way that is currently being unmet, right? And if there's enough demand for that, great, then we can offer that as a service. Maybe business clients will appreciate that, but if it is not something that draws a lot of interest, maybe there's another way, right? That another legal need that's not being met in the market, right? But that's kind of my plans for the business side of things, right, is to see how I can do business law differently and then my other practice area as well as in the States, which is something that I never really saw myself practicing in when I was in law

school, but then again, law school doesn't really go into the day-to-day practice of any really any real area, right? So, but when I was working at a different firm, those lawyer who I worked with who was really passionate roles in the States, right? And so I worked with them and got to learn the ropes about the area. And I just went very fascinating, you know, because it will, it's just a document. But the impact it can have, especially if it's not done properly, or if people haven't put their affairs in order before passing away, the impact it can have is very serious, right? So you have, and it's very, very small things, right?

Like, for example, let's see if it will, and it says, you know, I've got four children and I want my state to divide equally between them. And they just think, okay, that makes sense, right? But behind the scenes, what they're really thinking of is maybe we have like a vacation property, it's got sentimental value to my family. and I want it to be, you know, given to my children, right? And they can all live there and stay there. Well, now you've said that your estate is divided in quarters.

So technically, the house, the other property has to be sold to become part of the estate to be divided, unless they can work together to buy out the property. But now let's say the parent passes away and now they got the situation where it's not very clear, right? And maybe not all the kids have the money necessarily buy it out. maybe there's disputes over it or how to proceed. Someone says, you know what, let's just sell the family home. And then now you've created that, you know, friction, right?

And it's over something that's pretty small. But you were surprised at how something that seems small can blow up, right? Because then it leads to other discussions and other problems, other conflicts arise. And now something that started off as an issue that was relatively minor is not blown up into a larger family dispute. That gets locked into litigation for years. And I've seen all kinds of matters that. because of lack of clarity in a will or something wasn't addressed, now there's issues, right?

Maybe a client has an idea for how they want things to be done and meet with a lawyer and you just whip it together in accordance and instructions. Great. But they might not have thought through all the potential legal implications, right? That's your job as a lawyer to point out, right? So when I sit down with my clients, my focus when I do wills in the state's planning, it's not just, okay, well, what do you want to put into place? But I'll give them advice in terms of how do you minimize disputes, right?

And that's one thing I really try to focus on the clients is you want to do things this way, just so you know, this is what can arise, right? How do you feel about that? And, you know, because when those issues do arise and the parents aren't to deal with it, now you've created, you know, separation there between their children, right? Which they don't want, right? And when you explain to them in that way, they say, you know what, you're right, we should probably consider doing things in a different way to minimize the potential

they're being a dispute, right? So that's what I really try to focus on is minimizing disputes when it comes to that planning and also trying to get people to think about what happens if you don't pass away, but you're in a state of mental capacity, right? That's what you could really use, the power of attorney, representation agreement, getting that stuff put into place so someone can step in as your attorney and help you with your financial decision making or as your representative to help me make medical decisions, right? And I've seen cases where it's extremely important to have that in place, right?

So I'll use one example where there was, the client, you know, their parent was in a care home and, you know, their children were all from out of town. And in that care home, there was someone who was trying to befriend them and basically manipulate them and control them. And so, and now the parent doesn't have mental capacity, but this person is basically trying to take advantage of them. And even though they don't really have, capacity is not really black. in white, right? It's a tricky area medically and legally to get into. But long story short, this elderly person is being essentially exploited and abused in care. But thankfully, we made our presentation agreement before capacity was an issue. So they were able to use their authority to transfer them to a different care facility that's closer to one of the children so they could

at least look after their parent, right? But if they didn't have that ability, now you have to go and try to argue as to whether that parent has capacity or not to step in to make decisions for them. And it's not fun to try to go to court and argue that your parent is incompetent, right? Because sometimes, and I receive calls from the other end where someone calls me and says, you know, my children put me into care, but I am perfectly fine. What do I do? Right? They argue that I was incompetent. And I'm like, well, now you've, that's a totally different area. But stuff like this happens and it's very serious, right? So wills and the state's plan. to me, I look at it from that lens, if it's not done properly, it can cause a lot of issues for people, right?

Really significant problems. So that's why I like doing it. And as well, you get to provide, you know, you can get really lift the weight off of people's shoulders. I've done so many, what they call like deathbed welds, where I am called to go to a hospital or like some kind of care facility. and the client is going to pass away very soon and they don't have their will in order, right? Maybe it was a condition that progressed a lot more quickly than they thought, maybe it's something really sudden, but they're going to pass away. And now they have the weight of their will on their shoulders in their last moments. And I've helped clients as they are in that state get their state planning sorted out, and then once they're all sorted out and signed, they have that relief. and now they can focus more on talking to their family and stuff like that because they're not worried about

what if there's a dispute after I pass away over my assets, right? What if my one child is not taking care of or there's all these things that go in their mind they weren't resolved and I can help them get through that and I have done so and it's really neat to know that I was able to at least help them in that way, right? I mean, it's a will, it's not like a big money kind of file, whatever it is, but that's not what it's about, right?

It's about I get to be part of that, I get to help them. and their family, right? And I've done, you know, definitely many, you know, kinds of files like that. And it's, you know, makes me very happy, right? And even people who have, like, I've had lots of clients as well who are disabled and they're at home.

They can't leave their home. And they need legal services too. And I've had all kinds of people, like, reach out to me. They're really struggling financially. They're trying to do a debt reconsolidation. No one's willing to go to their home to meet with them. And they can't leave their home, right? And even if they were to try to leave their home.

home. They have to bring all the medical equipment with them. They needed a specialized van taxi, which costs more money. And so these people are disabled. They have a fixed income. They don't have a lot of money. They're going through hardship. And there's really nobody out there who's willing to step in. Like I've had mortgage brokers call me from Richmond saying, can you come out and meet with a client from Chilliwack? Right. And because these people have been trying to get this deal done, but no one's willing to meet with them. Right. And it's sad, right? And I've had people even locally, right? Same thing. You know, we're bedbound, we can't move, we have difficulty, and it's, you know, they want someone who can come to visit them. And I'm like, you know what,

Chilac is small enough, right? I'm going up and down better all day, right? So, you know, it's not a big deal for me to pop by on the way and deal with them, but it's, it's, you know, and these people who, like, access to legal representation, right? It's a huge issue in law. And I'm just, the way I view it is I'm doing my small part in that way, right, but targeting some of these clients as well, right? So that kind of gives an overview of how I view my practice area is. Yeah. Right. And there's a reason why I do each one, right? And if I don't have that, my opinion is if you don't have like a genuine joy appreciation for practice area, why are you doing it, right? I don't dabble in other areas because I'm either not interested

in it or I don't think I have the right skills for it. But you do what you're good at, right? So, for example, family law. I would not be a great family law lawyer, right? You need a very different skill set for that area of law, right? And it's a very hard area of law to practice in. But, I mean, you met in Oak Crawford, right? I knew that she was a really good family lawyer before I even really came out to Chilliwack, right? And that's when I encouraged my fiance to try to get a job with her firm, right? But you need that skill set, right? And you got to stick to what you know, right? What you're good at. That's what I'm doing. Yeah, that sounds so important because the whole part with wills and estates is that most people don't have a will. Most people don't

have a plan. And in our community, we do have an overrepresentation of elderly people who do need those services and they need it done in a way where they can feel heard, understood, and it can be done in a process that is less intimidating. Because if you're trying to convince someone to go into a giant law firm to try and have a will done, that places the person at a disadvantage and is very intimidated, doesn't know the area. So when you're bringing up conflicts that may arise, that's so important because then they have reassurance that when they do pass that we've mitigated to the best of our ability any foreseeable problems that might arise that allows that person a certain sense of peace and you're never going to be paid for that nobody's ever going to pay like a peace premium

and that's something that you're offering to the client while you're offering other services and i think that that's so so wholesome to hear because often with law it becomes so impersonal and so disconnected from reality. And that is a very personal moment for the client coming in, having this conversation about this is what I'd like to happen when I die or this is how I'd like to set it up. And you being able to answer those questions and connect on that personal level, I think is important for people to hear because most of the people I know are very intimidated by lawyers. So having someone give the facts and the details of this is what the reality is going to be if we

set it up in this way, these are ways to mitigate it and try and make sure that there are less conflicts. When you do pass, your family is more together than apart. I think that's so important because there are people who try and steal during will issues and there is a lot of shadiness that can come out of that. So you trying to mitigate that is so important for somebody who's trying to resolve all of this in a healthy, positive way. And you have the opportunity to reduce the amount of hell somebody goes through after they lose their parents or are in those circumstances. When it's just all just reflecting on the funeral and trying to connect, that's what you want to be focused on. You don't want to be focused on the fact that, well, this person got 20% more than

you want this payout, or you're not getting this payout, or you don't get the home in the Bahamas. You don't want it to be about any of that. You want it to be grieving and reconciliation and coming to terms with those things. And I think that that's something that you never hear the legal profession ever talk about. And so I'm so grateful to be able to talk about that. Can we get into a little bit of your current relationships? Your fiance is working at Vail Family Law. What has that been like for her? And how did you two meet? Oh, boy. Okay. So we met in law. school actually. So she's from Calgary and she went to TRU for law in the same year as me. And yeah, we just met in law school and started going out. And then, you know, obviously

had to make some decisions along the way in terms of, well, where do we really see ourselves in the future, right? Do you want to go and live in Calgary or Alberta? Do we want to go stay in BC? If so, where in BC? Where do we really want to set roots, right? And the option for originally way back. So I've always wanted to go into law school and become a lawyer since I was about in high school, right? And when I was in university and really thinking about it, at the time I had a mentor who's an oil and gas finance guy. And he was trying to convince me to work in securities law in Calgary, sort of getting to more finance, right? And so when I went to law school, I was just like thinking, okay, well, I know there's probably an opportunity out there in, you know, oil and gas finance.

And I can also think about something I had about practicing in real estate and business in the Fraser Valley, right? And that's when the, you know, oil and gas market kind of tanked. And I knew other lawyers who, you know, were definitely, you know, experienced lawyers really bright and they were losing their jobs, right? And I'm like, well, I don't want to deal with that instability, right? So, you know, being reliant to the oil and gas sector, I was like, you know, I don't really feel like I would want to set shop in Alberta. And in terms of the weather, too, like, it's beautiful out here in BC. weather's great, you know, you can't beat the views, especially out here in Chilliwack, right? So, you know, I said to Aaron, my fiancee said, let's go to, you know, I have a good feeling about the Fraser Valley, right?

Let's go and set up, let's go get to place in Abbotsford once you graduate, and from there, we're kind of equidistant to the neighboring cities, and, you know, we'll find articles, we'll find work, and then decide from there, where do we want to officially stay? Is it in Abbotsford, Chilowac, Langley, we'll see, right? And but because before that, I haven't really been to Chalawak. Chilok is always just a stop on the Greyhound, right? That was pretty much what it was. And we would come out here sometimes, you know, to buy, you know, corn or fish or whatever. But I never really got to see the community, right? And so anyways, my, my, the first job that I got was at a law firm out here in Chalawak.

And so that's when I got exposure to Chalawak working out here for a couple years. And I encouraged Aaron to also find a job, preferably in Chalawak. but there's very few firms out here, right? So I said, you know, if you find a job, at least in Langley or somewhere else, you know, we both have like a similar kind of commute, right? Because if we set up shop in Chilawak and I find a job in Chilawak and she finds a job in Langley, then she has to go through a really difficult commute every morning, right?

So that's what we decided to stay and I was from the beginning. So anyways, I had heard about a Crawford's practice in family law, and Aaron has an interest in going to family law. And so, you know, I told Aaron why didn't she try to reach out to her, right? at the time she wasn't really looking to hire right just got a small small family practiced then she's running it herself you know as a single parent as well so she's got a lot on her plate and she managed it pretty well um and i said to erran you know what just because they're not looking right doesn't mean they're never going to be looking right so the best thing you can do is develop

yourself and always you know keep her head up and look out right and so sure enough sometime in the future there was an opening at her firm but it was mostly for you know an associate i think who had some kind of experience, right? Because when you take on an article-link student, it is a huge commitment, right? Because, sure, they do billable work and they make some money, but a lot of the times probably get written off

because of inefficiency, and you're still taking the time out to train them, to coach them through a file, fix their mistakes. So if a senior associate or partner could have spent one hour doing the work themselves,

now they'd probably spend four hours because they have an article student on board, right? So it is a time commitment, it is an expense, and so that's why I can understand, especially why smaller firms want to take on associates, right? Because taking on an Arlington position,

it is a commitment, and I really respect lawyers who do take on students because it does a lot of work. It's difficult, really good principle, right? But I said to Aaron, I said, you know, just because you haven't worked in family law, you're just Arlington student, it doesn't mean that you can't, you know, do your best to learn more about it, right? You can still do CLE courses.

You can still go to, you know, events and stuff like that and show that you're committed to learning about your practice area and develop is professional in this area right and even though you are looking to article and start from from scratch you're putting the effort in right and that worked for her right and so um she ended up getting the position and um you know getting called to the bar working with umville family law and it's been really good to see her really mesh well in that environment um and to practice with the lawyer who is really good at what she does and i like her approach so it's um you know i'm glad that

she was able to find her fit there, and that we were both able to then work in Chalawak. And then after being out, working out here, we decided, why don't just buy here and really settle down, right? And so we ended up buying a place here, and then my parents also decided to relocate here. The community is just so much better out here, right? I just like the way things are out here in Cholawak, right? It's a very different vibe from what we're used to, and we love it. And so, and then my sister and her husband also moved out here. So it was really neat, right, that we all kind of just realized. you know how great it is to be out here in Chiluac right and it's like definitely the hidden

gem I don't know why there's like that invisible wall between Abbotsford and Chilwack people think oh Abbotsford's average it's fine but chalk's too far it's not very far the highway is right there right and it's a pretty cool city so that's when we decided you know what we're both here in Chiluac but we know we both bought in so really committed to the area right and yeah I mean we had wedding plans as well we wanted to go um in a little bit open a different country, but COVID kind of changed that a bit. But, um, I mean, that's, you know, it's not going to be forever, right? And sure enough, once things, um, once things change with COVID, if we're able to travel again, um, first thing we're going to do is, you know, go out there and,

um, you know, have her, have her wedding and do all that, right? So, um, but yeah, I'm, I'm really grateful to have someone like her on my team on my side, right? She's, uh, very supportive. Um, she really compliments her personality. Um, um, Because she has a lot of the skills and attributes I don't have, all the qualities I don't have, that, you know, I value. And she brings that to the table as well. And likewise for myself, right? Like we mesh really well in that way. And it's like the, it's good to have that balance, right?

And she keeps me in check and obviously having my own business and the hours involved, it's really stressful, right? And that can take its toll in terms of relationships of sure, right? And just like think of any business, right? we're going to business, you're going to do your best, but you have no idea what's going to happen. Maybe you'll get, like, that gold ticket client, great. Maybe you won't. Maybe you're going to struggle for years, right? But then at the day, that's going to impact your finances, your relationship, and you

have a partner who can really understand that and be supportive, right? If it means that they're going to pay the bills for whoever knows, who knows how long until you can get set up and running, they have to be fine with that. If it means dealing with a lot of things at home by themselves while you're working a long hours, they have to be okay with that. And at the same time, you have to make the effort on your part to try to do as much as you can to soften that for them, right? That's that is a burden as well. But, you know, to have a partner who can be supportive through that and understand that, you know, that's huge. And, you know, I think that's really critical as well, you know, to

anybody's an entrepreneur or business owner, right? Is having that, you know, relationship that works with your business as well, right? And having that balance and having someone who gets it. Because otherwise, it can lead to a lot of problems, as you can imagine, right? So, but. I completely agree with you because I go through that as well, especially right now with doing the podcast, law school, trying to keep a job and trying to maintain the house and make sure that everything's in order. You are taking on a huge responsibility, but you're doing it with like a long-term goal.

And so you recognize that obviously you'd like to do as much work as you can now, build up the business to a certain point, but then you'd like to get more comfortable hours and be at a place where you can actually enjoy your life. And that's what you're grinding towards right now is these are the grinding years for you. And I recognize that with myself is these are the years where I don't get to have a regular schedule. I have to put in time from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. to try and set myself up to be more comfortable and finding that partner that is going to support you and understand when you've had a crazy day and you are just absolutely exhausted and you don't have any energy, but that that is all within the broader framework of working towards a long-term

goal of both of you being absolutely comfortable and happy and recognizing when both of you have gone up against a big, long day where the person yelled at you or miscommunicated or you had a bad experience at the grocery store, whatever it is, is that that person is there for you to listen and not to hound you to go in, clean the room or do whatever it is, that they're understanding that you are doing that for the family, for your community. And I think that that's amazing that you found someone that you click with in that way because I don't think we hear about those types of stories in media, even talking to people. You don't hear about how strong their partner is and how supportive they are of their endeavor. And you just don't see that.

You see the falling in love part, which is great. But it's the day after that actually is the most interesting because that's when they made your breakfast when you were running late and you were able to take that to work or whatever the circumstance is. They're able to lift you up when they don't have to when they could just focus on their morning and their client, they're focused on you and trying to make sure you get out the door in a positive way. And so I'm so happy to hear that. When did you guys meet and how did that happen? What was the first encounter like? Oh, yeah, I can't even, that was, it was, I mean, when people go into law school, right, usually you're going to be, I mean, you're out of undergrad. You probably had some kind of work

experience. Maybe you're already in a relationship. Like you're, you know, usually mid-20s, right? Mid-20s, sometimes early 30s. That's your typical demographic for law school, right? Law students. So you go in there, you probably already have a relationship. I've got plans and stuff, but it's a really pivotal moment, right? And you learn more about yourself. You meet more people and, you know, things change. And one of the things I realized in, um, in law school, especially in the first year, and especially if you're from out of town, which a lot of people, when they go to, you know, for example, TRU, if you're not local to counts coming from out of town, where a lot of people in general for law school, right? They go somewhere else, right? Because you

apply to a bunch of schools, you go to where you get into or maybe go into your dream school, whatever it is, but oftentimes you're going somewhere else, right? And it's a really pivotal time because now you're in a new city, right? And you're going to a new school. You're meeting new people. You're going to a new area, right? You're going to law. And, you know, you develop as a person, you change as a person. And then it's a really pivotal kind of moment. And you find that a lot of relationships really change in law school, right, where people find someone else or they realize that, you know what, hey, this person that I'm with right now, we're not compatible anymore, right? And things like that. So the first year of law school, when everybody kind of meets,

it's interesting because you're going through a lot of that in the background, right? And you get to meet a lot of people. And, you know, it's one of those things because I, you know, I was already in a relationship at the time when I went to law school, right? And, you know, that didn't work out. But, you know, I met Aaron, right? And we mostly clicked. over humor, right? So I have a very weird sense of humor, right? Sometimes it's a bit dark, sometimes it's a bit sarcastic, sometimes nobody finds it funny, but she found hilarious, right?

She'd always find everything I said hilarious. And, you know, so that leads to, you know, you know, as spending, obviously, more time together, getting to know each other a bit more. And for the same time, it's, you know, entering into a relationship is, it's also a commitment, right? committing to being there for that person and making the time for them and making sure you're emotionally available and ready and stuff like that

when you have the stress of law school or in a lot of cases people have relationships that are long distance it's really tough to maintain maybe the relationships are falling apart and all this is kind of going on when they're juggling like several classes right and trying to find work after right

and juggling student loans and it's a lot of stress and pressure so you want to kind of make sure you know you're in the spot to enter into a relationship right and really put the effort in right and so um you know at a certain point um i realized um you know i really want to um you know be relationship with this person you know i really want to to be with them right and um yeah and so you know things kind of just naturally progressed and um you know he became official right while we're in law school and uh it you know

and the more time we spent together, the more time you want to spend with them. And before you know it, you're moved in together and then your daily routines are all synced up and then you realize, well, I'm spending all day long with this person and I don't even notice it, right? And it's just kind of how it just progresses, right?

But what brought it together initially was just that chair for humor and, you know, similar interests, right, where, you know, hey, look, both of us, at the exact same time, had a craving for an Echman muffin and we're behind each other in the drive-thru, and it happened so many times.

Like, just small things like that, right? And so, yeah, we'd run into it for a lot of the same places because we had the exact same kind of habits. And then it's like, okay, well, obviously there's something more there, right? We're both kind of kooky in some ways. So that was, yeah, I know I love her very much. She's awesome. That does sound awesome.

You guys met each other in the drive-thru. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah, because I went through something similar with Rebecca because the first time we met, we were at Coltis Lake. And we were there with the same type of people, but we weren't there to see each other. We didn't know each other. And we bonded over discussing what happened to the sham wow guy because he was super famous.

And then he was all of a sudden gone and nobody talks about sham wow anymore. Yeah. And just interesting things like that where it's off topic of what people normally say that, hey, how are you doing? So when you can bond over a unique thing, it really does build a strong foundation. And so can we get a little bit more into your childhood? growing up because I think that that is where we need to focus a lot of different people go through different things when they're growing up and it shapes who they are today. And I think

that you have a phenomenal story that I think people absolutely need to hear. Yeah, it's, it was definitely, yeah, definitely a struggle to get to this point. It was, so my parents are from Fiji and they came here separately in about the 70s, right? They didn't meet until later on but um so my mom you know from vg the thing is when you go a lot of countries out in the world um public public education is not kid to 12 it's back then it was i think fourth grade and so if you want you to go beyond fourth grade you had to pay right to pay money and so for a lot of families especially farming families you can't afford to send all your kids to school so maybe you can afford to send one or none at all. But the first people, but what's, so back in that time,

and I mean, you still see this today, the people who get, the children get chosen to not go to school are usually daughters, right? And they're expected to pick up household duties with the goal of becoming a homemaker, which is a really tough job, but all the same time very limiting, right, obviously, right? Because, just because their, your daughter doesn't mean they're any less capable, right? Or have any, the goals are worth less, right? But unfortunately, that's just the way things are in a lot of parts of the world, right? So, you know, that's what my mom had to go through as well. So, and then for my dad, I mean, he went to high school here. And, um, but for him, so he worked in a bunch of labor jobs, right? He's always been naturally a more trades person, right?

That's just what he loves to do. Um, so anyways, when he met my mom and I was born, um, he really, um, wanted to, you know, be that great provider and to really create a future for, you know, for us, for his family, right? And so he would work, and so he told my mom, you know, because my mom had a bunch of issues in terms of her neck and back. She had a couple really bad slip and falls, just a bunch of, just a bunch of things that led to her having a lot of pain in her body, right? That she's had to deal with her whole life even to this day. And so my dad said, you know what, stay at home with the kids. And then I'll find a way to make things work, right? And so for him, that involved going to different factories and trying to find work, right, starting out.

And he ended up finding a job at a cabinet shop, right? And that's when he really, they put in a long hours to learn the trade. And he really excelled at cabinetry. He really excelled at woodworking. And people really noticed his talent and his passion for that, right? And at the same time, he was also working at a furniture company, both full-time jobs. So he would start his first job at 7 a.m. The shift ends at 3.30, so he would skip his lunch break, and then I just hard to talk

about sometimes because he really struggled. But he'll skip his lunch and then take the bus to his other job and work until midnight. And then sometimes if he missed the bus, he'd walk back home the whole way and he did this for 10 years. So, and what's really sad is, is a one moment keeps coming back to my mind where he fell asleep at one day on the job on top of a saw and lost his finger. But based on how he fell, he could have easily died at that time. And I remember getting that call for us to go to the hospital and my dad's there. He's missing his finger. It was just there next to him in a jar. And he lost his finger. And, you know, ask you like what happened is like I'm just too exhausted I fell asleep on the saw and I mean

what do you do right you get um there's wcb which you know covers some things and you know but it's not a whole lot right so um he had no choice but to wrap up his finger and get back to work right so didn't even get a chance to really fully heal or recover or really absorb what happened to him and it's back to the grind and on top of that on weekends he was building custom furniture and selling it right so he went through a lot of struggles and it wasn't just the work side of it it was the fact that you know he was really getting it from all sides right um people who would say that they're their help would just try to find ways to exploit him and our family people would try to take things from us landlords always try to take

advantage of us at one point they just kicked out all our stuff out for no reason at all other than the fact that they just don't want tenants anymore. And they didn't like the fact that, you know, I was a little boy, and I was riding my bike in the driveway. And they didn't like that, right? They said it's their driveway, stay off of it. We don't want your kids playing in our yard or playing in our driveway. And my dad's like, well, we're renting this place, right?

And they said, well, tough. And they kicked all our stuff out. And they said, go to somewhere else. Obviously, it's illegal. But my dad's working all the time. What's you going to do? Are you really going to go and try to fight this and whatnot, right? So most time, what happens with people in the situation, they just take it.

and they just go somewhere else, right? And they don't put up a fight, which is why, to this day, a lot of landlord-tenancy disputes really grind my gears because people get exploited, right? But, yeah, so anyways, he really struggled for very, very long time. And he, yeah, really bore,

he took on that whole burden and shielded away from the rest of his family, right? And he made sure, like, he would still come home and read books to me and play video games. Doesn't have to late at night early in the morning. He would always find a way, right? And he put all that effort in. And, I mean, looking back on that, I always tell my dad, like, how did you do it? Like, that's monumental amount of effort and work ethic you need and just grit, right?

Because a lot of people, when life gets to them in that way, they find it really tough to just continue on, right? And he was just like, well, you know, it's when you want to do something, you do it. And he's like, you know, you put your mind to it and your card. And you don't need anyone else's help and support. You just need yourself, right? If you can't rely on anybody else, you can't trust them. They take advantage of you. At the end of the day, you can always rely on yourself.

so sometimes you just got to pull yourself up and just do the best you can and you'd be surprised the way you can achieve and that was his mentality so that's what I picked up but for me as a result of him having to work all those hours right a lot of times I was about myself and especially growing up as some of the rougher parts of town you have friends who are also going through a lot of things like poverty racism some discrimination, neglect, and you get to meet them, hear their stories, and you kind of bond over it, right, about how, you know, like them really hard sometimes. And you go to these schools, and they're often also good areas, there's needles all of the

playground, and I went to school, my friend and I got robbed multiple times with older kids, but a knife point, they pull a knife, take into, like, a closet or the gym area, and then just take all your stuff. Sometimes you even take your clothes, right? Take my shoes, and, you know, makes me very upset because my parents worked hard for that, right? take someone to you and take your food, right? And it was definitely really crappy to go through, right? On top of the racism.

Because when you're a kid and you're going through a lot of this stuff, your mind is shifting away from school. You're not really caring about that because you don't really see a future. And you're surrounded by people like your friends and they'll have similar kind of background, similar kind of things going on. It's really easy to lose hope and it's really easy to not really see a future. And so you think about what's the point of school. And I see that a lot with lots of children who have.

troubles is they don't see the point of school. It's not that they're dumb. They just don't see the point. They don't have that confidence. They don't have that yet. But a lot of the times, society writes them off. And I was written off many times over. So I've had teachers make all kinds of comments to me, other students, and what hurt most of the teachers? Because I expected more from them, even when I was a kid. And I heard all kinds of comments that were very racially insensitive. teachers thought out calling you dumb. I had teachers joke about the fact that they thought that I was dumb because of ESL

when I was born and raised to hear English from my first language. But they assumed that I was just too stupid to really just, you know, even know English. Even though I spoke English perfectly, but they're just trying to find ways to poke at me, right? And even teachers who would purposely deny me the ability to go to the bathroom,

other kids are fine, but me as the only, you know, student of color in the class, they'd always deny me. and then, you know, and even when there was issues like this going on, and I don't really talk to about it, if I complained, they would then tell my parents that I was out of line, that I was misbehaving.

And they would then force them, so my dad had to come home from work early, lose his wage, to come deal with the stuff at the school with my mom. And that irritate me even more, because now he's taking time work with something that's just a bunch of BS. And it was really unfair. And so, you know, when you're growing up like that, you feel very isolated, you feel like there's really not much hope, you know what, and it's hard to even understand things like racism when you're a kid, right?

Why is this happening? Why me? What's the reason behind it? What did I do? And you can't really understand it. So what you do is just blame yourself. What if I did something wrong? What if I deserve this, right?

So you blame yourself. And that can help you become a better student? No, right? You really don't care about, you don't have hope for that kind of stuff, right? So for me, you know, I was not really interested in learning much because also there's stuff in the background. And it wasn't until, I mean, there's definitely a few events that kind of ignited that kind of spark in me to want to do more, right? And the first, I remember that as a friend who's this boy in my class, this is, yeah, wouldn't have been like grade one or two or something. But he was a good friend of mine.

And we used to always hang out and play game and stuff. And then one day his dad said, listen, you can't hang out with Chanel because he's just a really dumb kid. And I don't want you to hang out with kids like that because you're going to become dumb yourself. And flat out told me that. And he's like, yeah, sorry, we can't hang out anymore because my dad said, you're just too dumb. And that hurt. And I was just like, I'm your friend, right? And so anyways, my friend was like the math all-star, right?

He was doing all the advanced math stuff. He's acing every quiz and all that kind of stuff. and said, you know what, I'm going to make it my mission to really master math, right? And so I went home, I studied, did whatever I could. My dad got me like some kind of like, some kind of math, a video game kind of thing, right? Like, I was interested in it, right? And so I ended up becoming really good at math. And for the rest of the entire school year, I beat my friend in every math quiz, every math test, every math assignment.

And I became number one. And then his dad called my parents and left a very angry voicemail calling me a bunch of names saying that I was cheating in school, that I was still a loser, blah, blah, blah, and that he doesn't want anything to do with me and he wants to keep his kid away from me. And I'm like, looking back as an adult, that's really pathetic, you know, but as a kid, I was like, I put my mind to something and I accomplished it and it really irritated this guy, you know, but I felt victory. I felt like, you know, I accomplished something, and I did on my own, right? And I really liked that feeling. And, you know, and it was a few other times like that, but it wasn't until about the seventh grade when, I keep in mind, during this time, they would always put me into the special learning classes for kids who are usually troubled or have difficulty learning. They put me into all those classes, even though, so since that time of second grade, I was always an all-star at math, right? Once I learned the passion for it, I just kind of ran with it, right?

But again, there was all kinds of special programs for kids who were really good at math. But when I would ask about them, they would always deny me. I was like, I have the best grades in math. And you're getting, letting the other kids take this program and learn more and nurture their talents. But you're always denying me. Why is it just me? Right? And they never give me a reason.

They just told me to, you know, get lost or whatever it is. So I just miss you in a very harsh ways. and, you know, but looking back, it's clear, you know, that there was a lot of instances where as a kid where I saw as an innocent comment, or maybe it's the way the world is, but it all came down to discrimination in the day, right? Discrimination is writing me off because of my upbringing, my background, the fact that, you know, I am personally only person of color, right, in that classroom, and the conceptions come with that, right? And dealing with those comments, dealing with that, people trying to knock down opportunities for you, right? And realizing that,

and at some point I realized that as a kid that no one's helping me and no one's going to help me and that made me angry in a way but also motivated me that you know I have no choice and but to really just believe in myself and that's when my dad's words can hit home and so from that point I was just like you know what I'm going to do my best to learn I'm going to be so good at what I do that you can't ignore me and I'll make a statement and I think that And so in seventh grade is when I kind of had the mentality. And I think the teacher noticed that. And that teacher then gave me straight A's on that report card.

And then that's when everybody in the class was like, what's going on? Did they make a mistake? Right. And that's one of the parents says, well, he just worked harder than you. Right? And, you know, that was a very happy day, you know? And I was very happy with that teacher for going out. I was away from me, right?

And really helped me. and that kind of instilled in me the confidence of myself that I don't need anybody's help or support. I don't care for it, right? If I can just focus and put the effort in and ignore all the negativity, all the other nonsense, and if I can just focus and do my own thing and just be tough and work hard, there's no stopping me. And it was that mentality that got me through all of that, right?

And since then, I've always been to the top of my class. and no matter what I did, right? And I really developed a passion for learning and education. Because when I was university, I ran a tutoring business. And was I, like, the 4.0 student or whatever All-Star? No, I was definitely a really good student, but, you know, academically I'm not, like, the number one. But the skill I did have in terms of what really helped me being really effective as a tutor

was knowing how to build people, knowing how to coach them. because of my experiences, right? Just because someone's struggling doesn't mean they're dumb. Doesn't mean that you have to write them off. It just means that maybe they need to be built up in some other way. Maybe just a matter of confidence. Maybe just a matter of the second-guess themselves a lot. Maybe just a matter of they need to look at things a little bit differently.

But don't write them off. And so I had a lot of students over the years, and it was, my tutoring business did really well Because people really, when they worked with me, they wanted to keep working with me. And it got to the point where when I was, my third year of accounting, I had MBA students reaching out from all of the province, wanting help with learning accounting, finance, economics at the MBA level, right? And these are business professionals, you know, the directors, companies, VPs, and they reach out to me. And once they work with me and they realize what I bring to the table, they're extremely impressed. I've had students who, these are the All-Stars, right?

They're at the head of these massive companies, massive organizations. They're doing their master's. And they're really bright. And they're even really good when it comes to the coursework. But they just need a little extra, right? And I'm able to help them with that, right? And it was really nice to have the word of mouth when, you know, someone who's a really high-ranking person in a big business,

reach out to people in the program and say, go see Chanel. He's a younger guy, but he's really good at what he does. And to get that vouch and to then have students who I can work with and build them and build that confidence in them and watch them learn and develop and do better than me even, that's extremely rewarding. And that was, it makes me feel very accomplished. At one student, he came from India, his two kids and a wife. He really struggles with the language. And he was in the professional program, like the accounting program that I was in as well. And he had an assignment due in a week. And if he failed that assignment, he was kicked out of the program. But he really

needed to pass this program and get his designation so he could get promoted at work and provide for his family a bit better, right? Because, you know, go wife and two kids in Vancouver especially, right? Like, it's difficult, right? So I said to him, I said, okay, we have a lot to work on. First is English. Not just learning English, but also business. English, right? Learning how to read a case study, learning how to communicate in the business sense, that's a totally different skill to just English. And on top of that, getting through the material, making you comfortable with it, making you confident with it, because it's not just a program we can just memorize and just get through. You have to really understand how to synthesize

information, analyze it, come up with your own opinions on what's the best you would deal with this, and defend it, right? So it's really comprehensive. And so I had a week to get him through this one assignment. And then after that assignment, we got two years left of the program. And I was like, we were, I was very dedicated to this guy. He reached out to me, he says, I really, really need your help. People speak really highly about you. You're my guiding light.

I'll do whatever you say. I really want to make this work. Can you help me? And I said, that's a lot of pressure to put on me. But if you're willing to put the work in, I'll be right there with you. But you've got to be willing to put the work in. That's going to be a lot of work. a lot of long hours and to be very tough,

but if you believe in yourself and you can do it, I'll be there with you. And this guy did not disappoint. We were there sometimes going through material for 14 hours straight. SFU, Surrey, had a 24-hour campus back then. We were there sometimes until like 3 a.m. working on stuff.

And he lived in Burnaby. And sometimes we'd actually go out there to Burnaby. I'd go out there all night, coffee shops, whatever it is, his house, go through the material, learn it, right? Whatever it takes. And he put in the effort, and I was there to match it, right? And I even charged him for a lot of this, right? I just wanted this guy to succeed.

And he never felt, he didn't fail that assignment. He passed it. He passed every assignment since, and he finished the program. And to see how he was when I first met him to how he was at the end, you know, this is someone who now learned English really well in a business sense. He could, he felt really confident in his ability. And he, you know, really impressed me. And to know that I was, you know, there to witness that and to be part of that was very rewarding, you know, but, you know, it's, it was really cool to be able to do that, especially my own business, working by myself, I've no one to reach out to, I'm just doing this stuff, you know, on my own, right? And to get these kinds of, you know, clients, students, to have them spread the word of mouth, to have them

believe in my ability to that level, and to accomplish and achieve, that was really rewarding for me, you know, and that gave me my first dose of having my own service-based business, having client results, and feeling that sense of accomplishment that comes with it, right? And, you know, and I think that's extremely valuable to have, especially as a business owner, because every day you're working with staff, working with other people, right? And it's not just, they just throw in the cubicle here to your job. everybody who, if they work for you, they're helping you with your business. They're helping you build your business.

They're supporting your dream, right? Treat them well, build them, coach them, guide them. Have them become a better person in the word yesterday, right? And do the same for yourself, right? And if you can build that, if you can do that with your employees, you know, now you've got employees for life and they're very happy that you're committed to their development as well, right? And it's something I think a lot of managers don't do. They don't know how to do, but it's when you have the ability to build people up around you,

right, that's extremely valuable. And I love doing it. And that's my goal also with Alpine is to get people on board who are, you know, committed, they're loyal. And I'll put just as much effort to them, if not more, for them to develop. And, but it goes two ways, right? I told people, just because, you know, it's my business and I'm the lawyer, doesn't mean that, you know, I'm some almighty being, whatever it is.

I'm always learning all the time. And if you're someone who's been involved in the law firm industry for so many years, you've got lots of experience, even if you're a paralegal assistant, whatever it is, you got great ideas, you've got opinions. I want to know, right? Because you might have all the information that could really benefit me in the business. And I want to know, right? I want to hear your opinions.

I want your advice. Just because I'm the lawyer doesn't mean that I'm too proud of myself, too much ego to ask you for what you think. that's not the case at all right i value your opinion i want to know what you think i want to know if you have opinions in terms of how i can do things better what am i doing wrong right i want that feedback um so i can turn me a better lawyer a better business person right when i worked a different firm i was always talking to the staff asking them for what their opinion is on things learning from them sitting down with them right because they're a huge source of there's this wealth

information that no one really taps into right and so that's so kind of like my it's interesting because all of that stem from my experiences in education as a child, right? And all the stuff had to go through. And to overcome that and to put that same attitude other people and watch them succeed is, that's amazing. Right. And so that's how I also want to run my business is, you know, to be that kind of leader, to be that kind of manager, right, that really invest in people and really builds them instead of trying to bring them down. And And I've seen people like that, you know, they, you know, it's really sad because you go through all these experiences, you kind of see how things should be done and you do your best to,

to do that, right? But if people that come in, you know, they become partners at a law firm, let's say, right? Just because their buildings are good. They probably have no ability to manage a business to be a good manager, to be a good leader. They have none of those skills, but they can bring in the numbers, right? And maybe they bring in the numbers because other partners feed them work, right? If I can sit a desk all day, turn out files, and make a lot of money and become partner that way, great. That says nothing about your ability as a lawyer or as a business person, right?

And I've seen people like that where, you know, they walk into partnership. I don't like the partnership model at all, but they walk into that role. They abuse staff. They belittle people. They have a big ego. They have lots of flaws. They'll never address them. They don't care about their personal development.

They probably never had to really build or struggle. And they bring that to the workplace. And all it takes is one person like that. And it ruins the entire culture, the entire vibe. It causes turnover. It leaves a bad taste in your mouth working there. And I've seen that happen so many times. And that's why I've always, my mentality is,

if I bring somebody else on board with me as another lawyer, they must understand my business and the way I run things. And they must bring that attitude to the table. Because I don't want someone who just brings in a bunch of business, a bunch of money, but they can't treat people right. They can't build people up and they have that toxic attitude, that the ego, I don't want them on board. I don't know how much money they bring to the table, right? I'm having none of it, right? So I have those principles and I stand by them, but that's, you know, I've seen that and I have, you know, I want no part of it.

I'll never work for a firm or be with a firm that does that. That's why when I kind of saw, you know, how different firms practice in that area and what kind of people are out there. I say, you know what, instead of complaining about it, instead of seeing all these things done wrong and just putting up with it, I'm going to go out there and do it right. I'm going to do it my way. If I think my way is the right way, why not back it up and do it, right? Have your own firm, go by your principles, do things the way you think that should be done and stand by it and see what happens.

And if people value it, great, then you succeed. If they don't value it or it's not a good idea, at least you tried, right? So that was my thing, right? Why complain about it? Go out there and do it, right? So, but again, that's why I tie it all back to the, you know, my past history and stuff is your experiences that get to this point, that will determine how you practice as lawyer, right? All of it. Students reach out to me sometimes ask, what background should have to get into law school?

What experiences should I have? And I tell them it's not about that. What experiences do you already have? What's your story? What's your background? What do you bring to the table? That will influence how you practice, what area you practice? and who you work with, how you run your business,

what kind of a person you will be in the future, right? What do you bring to the table already? And don't be shy about it, right? You're proud of it. But really understand yourself and know yourself, right? And don't let anybody take that way from you, right? Because I've seen people, like, come in and they've got a great act, too, great skill set, but maybe people up top don't like that.

They don't want something they can mold to do things their way and be like them. And they break them down, they belittle them. They try to, you know, force them to be something they're not, right? and they become unhappy, they become miserable, but they put up with it, right? And I tell them, no, that's not right. But, you know, I'm not saying they should all go out and start their own business. I mean, if they want to, that's great, but that's a whole new set of challenges. But, you know, I think it's really important to know yourself and what you bring to the table and, you know, have a set of values and beliefs and principles and really stand by them.

And that's why I have my own business, my own firm, right? Because that allows me to do that, right? And to be the kind of lawyer I want to be, to practice, to practice, and to create the kind environment that I want to create. But yeah, that's why when it comes to stuff like, you know, role models and stuff like that, I always say it's my dad, right? And my mom. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So, yeah, it's, and it's interesting too because, you know, it's that, that struggle and the work ethic, it's, you need that to be successful matter what you do, no matter, and people do it all the time, right? Just because they don't necessarily have a lot of money. It doesn't mean they don't work hard enough. No, it's not the case at all,

right? People work hard every day, long hours. They put whatever it takes. in and just because they're not a lot of money to show for it doesn't mean that they're lazy doesn't mean that they're not accomplished doesn't mean that they're not a good family person no bearing right and i've seen that and even to this day i still see it where you know kids families they'll get written off because people make assumptions about them but you know they don't understand what it's like to be there and as someone who's been there you know i have that ability right so when i that adds to my perspective right so when you're dealing with myself as a lawyer You get someone who's got that experience, not just in the academic side, the business

side, but also in the life experience side of things, right? I can see things from different perspectives. I can understand things in that way. And when people work, right, do work for me. They're not just a cost. Oh, I can replace you tomorrow for someone cheaper. They're a person that I'm committed to. They're committed to me as well.

I'm going to build them up the best that I can. They're relying on this job for stability to support their families. I'm not going to take that way for them, right? I'm going to create a place for them where they can grow and develop and be themselves and we can work together. And I would love to have staff that can say they've worked me for 20, 30, 40 years and be proud of it. And that's what I want, right? So, and when I see some people don't have that background, maybe they come from a more privileged position, they don't care about any of that because they've never actually been in a position to understand or appreciate it, right? and I think that that humility and that sense of empathy and understanding, you know, it's, we need more of it.

I absolutely agree. I cannot believe some of the things you've said and how much you've gone through and to take all of the things that you've gone through that can make you so jaded and so angry at the world and your dad was never treated fairly. You weren't given a fair shake throughout most of your life and to turn around and to try and build something better out of those things and to look at it from a different perspective and say you want to offer opportunities and to help that person succeed when when you were in that circumstance, the only person who helped you was you and you putting in the work. And you could

have easily looked at him and said, well, I figured it out. So you go figure it out. But you didn't do that because you know how valuable it would have been to have someone there for you during those moments. And to go through all of those things alone and to try and sort out what's going on in the world is so difficult because you are being told by teachers that you're not enough and you're not doing the right things and I went through that too where you assume that they know more than you because they've lived longer and that sometimes isn't the case and you're put in a position where all you have to do is keep working and that shows through that you went through hell and your parents went through hell to get you here and you did not take advantage of the work they put in

You went and got a degree in accounting and law, and you pushed yourself and you continued. You took something like math that you didn't feel confident in, and you turned that around into being very knowledgeable on the subject and making your business based predicated on that. And these are things that people need to understand is that when you're placed way behind the start line and treated unfairly, that doesn't mean you're out of the game. It means that you have something to tell other people about and share with them what you're you've been through and set an example and that's absolutely what you've done you've set an example for so many people to say well yeah this isn't working and this isn't working and this isn't working

but i still have to wake up tomorrow and put some sort of work in to organize my life the way i want it to be and that's what makes you that's why i'm so happy to have you on is because your dad's sacrifice it needs to be recognized and appreciated as for what it was and he didn't expect any praise from anybody during that time and he certainly didn't expect years later that you'd be talking about this in this way and that's what I think is so important that people understand is that people are going through hell when they're in school when they're from grades one to 12 they can be in hellish circumstances where they're at risk of losing their home and when you're a kid you know those things like that's not above you because you're like seven years old

you know what's going on and you just don't know what to do about it because you're a kid and to go through those circumstances and to want to stand up for people and protect them from what you went through is what a role model is. They lead by example and they try and prevent horrible things from happening. And that's absolutely what you're doing now by trying to set people up and answer the questions that they have that your parents would have loved to have had answered in the exact same circumstance is so important because you're right, the lack of access to legal information is so harsh on the people who really need it most. The people who are at risk of losing their home, they have no one to call and they don't know who to call. And they feel like

if they do call, they're going to have to pay outlandish amounts of money for just a little bit of guidance and a little bit of support. And I'm just so grateful that we were able to talk about that. So the next part that I want to talk about is just focused on where you want to see the business grow in terms of people because you're absolutely right. You're looking for a very specific type of person who's willing to share their ideas. And a lot of businesses don't want that. They want you to fit into their mold. And that's something that's so unique because, again, you're building other people up and giving them the opportunity because if that person works with you and grows and starts their own thing you like I have no doubt that you would support them in the endeavor

they want to take on because you're on your own endeavor so what what do you see the future of the next five years of alpine being well um yeah before I get to the point I just wanted to go back and just say I also want to give full credit to my mom as well yeah because she was there with my dad every step of the way and that's when I learned early on that if you're going to go out there and really try to do things, you really need a partner who's there to support you. And that's kind of, when I saw that, I was like, yeah, definitely need that, right? So definitely want to give her full credit as well. That's why, you know, I like the fact that they're out here.

I get to at least be with them and, you know, be near them. You get to appreciate them every day, right? But now in terms of the next five years for Alpine, so the goal is, the goal is to basically get the real estate side of things really hammered down, like completely. get the name out there as much as I can, build it up as much as I can, get as many conveyances, as many staff as I can to work on that piece and build it as much as I can, right? So I really want to explode on that part of it because I think that there's a huge demand for a more modern legal service in an area, especially at a more cost-effective price point in the entire Fraser Valley, right?

I think it's a huge area of opportunity, and that's a good way to get my name out there, get more volume, more people know me than I'm a brand, and then if I can also get really great staff people on board and really support them, be there for them, you know, and give them a nice, stable place to call home. And, you know, that would be, that would be the goal, right, is to build that and to then expand to other areas. And if that involves bringing another lawyer too on board, great. We'll see. It's really hard to find, you know, associates out here, especially in Chalawak, especially ones that want to partner up with a newer firm, right? Because, I mean, they have their own fears, right? But for me, if I do bring other people on board, they're also

going to have to be very entrepreneurial because they would then understand how to build and, excuse me, run a business and I know that they would put the work in, right? So that's the goal, build at the real estate side of things really well, expand in that way. And the hard part is what they call economies of scale, right? So usually it's easiest to scale. It's, it's cheaper to run when you're small, right? Because your costs are very low, right? And you can sustain up to a certain point. But up to that point, you're going to need to then get, if you need more staff, you need more space, you have to get a bigger building, right? And you're going to have, and then with that comes, more equipment, more overhead, et cetera, but you'll need that to sustain the next level of

business. So that's usually the difficulty is managing the economy of scale. At a certain point, are going to have to move into a bigger space, get more staff, et cetera. But the goal is to build up to that point in a very cost-effective way, but at the same time maximize what I can do now, right? So if I've got a space where it's myself and two people in a space, right, how can I do more work with that physical constraint? And the answer, which is very clear that no one is really doing in law is remote working, right, and contract work.

You'll see that more, I guess, in Vancouver, but not really out here. There's a lot of people out there who don't necessarily want a full-time job in whatever it is they do, right? Let's see conveyance saying maybe they have kids at home they want to look after. Maybe they want to work only part-time. Maybe they want to work whenever they feel I can take on the odd contract, right? So my goal is to build up a network and people like that as well. And if I've got two people working for me in the office and they're maxed out, I've got a whole network of people that work remotely from me out there, right? Right. And if there's anything we've learned during COVID, is that it definitely is possible. The whole time, people have been saying, oh, we don't do remote this and whatever. And, you know, but it's definitely doable. It's definitely possible. It's just a matter of having the right systems in place, the right? The right people, the right, attitude towards it. And before you know it, you can run, you know, you have like a three person office, but you're really like a team of like eight, right? And you're working, you know, all over the place. And you're getting stuff done. And that's definitely very possible. So that gives me a ton of leverage because.

now I'm able to do a lot of volume and a lot of work with a vast network of people on my team, right? And with, and especially you have people who work like that on a contract basis, like on a per job basis, that works great for business because I don't have to worry about their, you know, vacation time, medical leave or stuff like that. If they want to take on the file, they can take on the file. If they don't, they don't, right?

But that makes it a lot more, you get a lot more flexibility in terms of your business in that sense. and I think that it's I think that's the way forward I think that's what's going to happen eventually in law is that we're going to have networks of lawyers who do work together remotely you know to achieve

outcomes like I have a business lawyer that I work with it's a friend of my name Jack he's a he's a very great business lawyer right he has experience in the states he went to an Ivy League school he worked at big firms in New York in California and came

here through his wife and kid I settled down here, he opened his own firm in Vancouver, right? And he's probably, I can't remember how much experience he has, but he's definitely got more experience than me and doing some pretty high-level business work. And so if I've got business files, and depending on what's involved, sometimes you get files where it's kind of out of the norm

for something you'd see in an everyday transaction, right? We've got all these complicated different kinds of agreements, international contracts, you know, more complicated share structures. I have someone like him with my team, right? and we can work together on files. And so from the client's point of view, they're dealing with me, Alpine, but they're really giving the value of two lawyers, right,

with, you know, who contribute their experiences and you merge them together, and they get all of that in one go, right? So that's, and that's really awesome because it's like when you're going to a firm, right? What's the advantage of having a bigger firm is you get that network, right? You get multiple lawyers, different areas. They can work together on it, right?

but with this with this model you get the same thing multiple lawyers in different areas who work together the difference is we're all remote and he's got his own business i've got my own business and the the cost of client is the same if not less because we don't bill for client told me about the file i told you about the file we both bill for that time no we get up to date you know we all get up to up to date together and then build a client for respective contributions and as a result the client gets that benefit, we all benefit, and it works, right? And so I think that moving forward in the future, we're going to see a lot more of that, where it's not so much about we're a big law firm, come to us for everything.

I mean, you're still going to have the mega firms, right? Because their clients need that, right? And they definitely pay the price for it, right? But you always have firms like that, the mega firms, because, you know, there's always massive clients who need that kind of service, right? But for when you're dealing with, you know, more smaller business clients, medium-sized businesses, there's definitely potential there to have networks of lawyers work together on files, and in a way that is seamless for the client, it's convenient for the client,

and if you're not ahead of the game in terms of seeing where, seeing how law is developing, you're going to be obsolete, right? Because technology moves really quickly, and especially with our generation millennials or Generation Z or whatever, Z, they're really quick to embrace technology and change. Whereas some of the older generation of lawyers, they're not really too keen on change, right? But with the way that we would have grown up, change is a constant. And change is something you just learn to embrace. And technology changes really fast. So if you don't practice in a very modern way, you risk becoming obsolete. And then it's hard to play catch up, right? But if you want to be a leader in that way, you need to see where things are going and try to stay

one step ahead of it, right? So that's what I'm trying to do as well is to try to build that remote network. So out of my small space, I can do a lot more. And people working from home, for example, they work remotely. That's great for them because now whatever cost you would have to have a bigger office is shifted on to them. But for them, it's a benefit because they can work from home as well, right? So it makes a lot of business sense. I can see why people don't want to do it though, because sure, being in person, having that communication, build that relationship is definitely very valuable as well, but working remotely doesn't mean you can't have that. You just have to have, it comes down to mentality and how you approach it, right? You can still

have that, but you have to really put the effort in and try to create that kind of culture, right, which is more difficult, but the reward is definitely there if you can pull it off, right? So that's my goal is I can still stay small in the physical sense of the office space and stuff like that, but scale to a much higher level because I'm leveraging technology, I'm leveraging the remote work. So that's my plans before COVID. So when COVID came about

and people are now wising up to the idea of, hey, we could work remotely and still make things happen. Home offices become more of a thing. And now is a great, so that presents opportunity for me, right? Because now people are in that mindset, they want that, right?

They've got a taste of it. They want it. And if I can offer it and nobody else really does, that gives me an advantage. Yeah, and now other law firms are paying for giant buildings that are absolutely empty because everybody's working from home and their overhead costs remain and yours were never existent in the first place.

I don't know if you've heard of him, but his name is Naval Ravikant. He is an angel investor slash philosopher slash a bunch of other things, but he basically said exactly what you said, which was that we are seeing a technological revolution slowly occurring and he gave the example of traditional hotel now Airbnb taxi service now becoming Uber or Lyft and you're seeing these moves and one of the predictions he had was lawyers and moving towards contract work where you hire the lawyer specifically for what you need them to do and then they have connections and if you need three lawyers you bring three of the best together and you have them work on one file and then they go their separate ways and do whatever they wanted

to do to begin with or what their firm is based on and so he predicted that I think his podcast came out like a year and a half ago. So you were right on the curve of where this is going. You've just started up very recently and you're implementing these ideas. And I think that this is fascinating because this is right on the cusp of where law is going in the future. But in Chilawak, I think you're the first to really embrace it and believe that this is the future and put your money where your mouth is because as much as other people may say remote working is a good idea, they're hesitant to follow through because they haven't hired people the way you're you plan to, which is you hire someone and they expect to be there from nine to five and then go

home and not think about work or nine to seven and not think about work after. You're looking for people who are more passionate who are interested in the work when it comes along and actually passionate about it when they get to take it on, which is completely different. So even the firms that you might be competing with who are working to work towards remote working, you're already ahead of them because you're hiring staff that would already be predisposed to be able to actually follow through from working from home because I don't know how many people I've heard I'm working from home and I didn't start to like 930 and I'm supposed to start at 830 and it's like they have a culture and a mindset of I'm not going to put in my I'm not going to put my best

foot forward but you're going to hire based on that and so I'm so excited to see where you go with that can we move into a little bit of Chilliwack and can I get your thoughts on what brought you to Chilliwack specifically and then if we can also talk about some small businesses that you're a really big fan of here that you've had experiences with and you can tell us a bit about them. Okay, so yeah, we had a bit of a list that we're looking for, a bit of a list, checklist of things that we look for in determining where we want to settle down, right? So affordability comes down to it as well.

You know, I didn't like working in downtown Vancouver or I worked in Toronto as well, but The idea of having, you know, small condo and working all the time and being the hustle bust and the city and having to spend like at least half million bucks for the privilege, it just wasn't something I was interested in, right? Your money goes a lot further out here, but at the same time I also have to look at the community, right? So out here in Chilowac, it's very interesting because people are more community-minded, I find. And I think that's really neat.

And I like that because, like, even look at all the Facebook groups, there's hundreds of them pretty much, right? And people are talking to each other, helping each other out, right? And then you see people like, you know, kids are playing in the street, right? In Surrey, you don't see that at all. Right? Parents are always saying, come in, don't go outside. And kids are sitting home all day on their phone, just doing nothing, right? But people out here actually are playing the streets and, you know, people talk each other. I go check the mail, you know, neighbor I've never met, starts talking to me, right? And it's, it's that community vibe, right? And the other thing, too, is that also reflects in how the small business community

is treated right because out here people are more interested in the smaller businesses right because they understand this is not just a business this is a family behind the scene right and when you're working with them working with you're supporting their family by supporting their business right and these are your neighbors these people that you know um your kids probably go to school together and you have that vibe and i've known as people are more likely to want to support small businesses right i have clients that come in and say i'll say well so you know why did you choose my firm i want to see what which our marketing efforts are working right and to say, well, you're in your business and you're a small business, so we want to support you,

right? And that's, that's it, right? And, you know, that's really cool, right? I like that. And it's, um, so having that community mindset to me is huge. And as well as, like, the views and the natural beauty out here in Chilliwack, um, you know, like all the greenery and just, it's just so nice. You've been breathing in the air, taking the water, like, it's just so nice out here, right?

And I really think it's a hidden gem. And, you know, it's like, a lot of my friends are, definitely quite a long ways away. And, you know, so it's really hard to really get to see them, you know, especially during COVID because a lot of our friends have young kids and stuff too, right? But at the end of the day, you know, we do still stay in touch. And, you know, Aaron and I always talk about it. Like, yeah, the downside is, you know, we don't have as much of a social life out here, I guess, because of how far we are from, you know, our base. But we do love it here, right? And, you know, we're both busy with our work and our business. And,

and we still have my family out here. We always go back to Calgary to visit her family as well. And we're really happy with that, right? So in terms of Chilliwack, it's just checked off all the boxes. And now that we're here and living here, it keeps getting better, right? And it's, yeah, I'm really happy we made that choice. And even my sister and my parents say the same thing,

that they just really love it out here, right? And it's really cool. Like, when they go down to, like, the nursery, they went to do some gardening, and they talk to the owner of the nursery, and they get to know them, right? And they like, oh, it's really nice out here. Like, you know, I know this person,

and this person, and they talk to me and they tell me about their family and stuff like that. And they like that, right? They really do, because you don't really get that anywhere else in this day and age, right? And, you know, it's,

so yeah, that's, that's, a summary of what I like about this city, right? And why we decided to settle down here because buying a house here is one thing but having a business out here and really setting up shop. That's a real commitment because I can't take my clients to move to Habitsford or Langley, right?

You're here. You're committed, right? If I go anywhere else, I'm starting to scratch over again, right? So it's a real commitment to the city. Well, before we move on, I think that it's important to also recognize that we're lucky to have you to choose to invest in our community and to lay your roots here because that's a benefit to us, to me, absolutely, because I've, through this podcast and through our last meeting, I have learned a significant amount and gone through topics that I would have never thought of. And I get to benefit from your knowledge and your experience and so do your clients and so does our community from you choosing to commit to this community. And so I really think that it's important that we keep in mind that people, we are proud of Chilliwack, but we're proud of these qualities because they bring people in like yourself who invest, who bring a business, who builds things up, who help our community members get access to more affordable legal services and get those supports because that is something that I as a community member want. I want elderly people to be able to get their will done at an affordable cost with somebody who isn't looking to take advantage of them.

I want someone like a Nook helping people address their family issues. I want these people here so I can recommend them and I can give good ideas because before I met you, I don't know where I would have sent someone to get legal services for their wills, for real estate, those types of questions. I wouldn't have that answer. And now I do. And that's through your choice to invest in our community and believe that this is the future. So I just think that you deserve a lot of credit for that decision as well. Thanks, Aaron.

Really generous. I appreciate that. It's, you know, and yeah, and that's one of those things where, you know, when you're part of the community, you also want to give back and to show your support, right? And so I'm always trying to look for other businesses to support, right? Smaller businesses, especially get to know them, get to know the story, and really support them, right? So there's so many great businesses out here that I've just met in my short time just living here, right? I'll start with, I guess, you know, this fella, Johnny from elevated pizza.

We go there for some delicious pizzas really around the corner from our place. And, you know, great guy, got to know him in his story and, you know, great pizza too. And when he says it's ready in 30 minutes, it's literally ready in 30 minutes and it's awesome. And you call him up. you know those customers as well he's a really cool guy and you know love supporting his business as well there's um

what do you get there that's your favorite thing to get there honestly like I probably the flicia bread's really good I always get that as part of my order and then I always get I switch the pizzas up all the time because they're all pretty good right so depending on mood I just order whatever right but all the pizzas are pretty good

the fulcation bed's really good and then I've got a huge thing of marinerdip at home just for this purpose right and then you have there's Nina, she runs a Luna float I think it's a really cool business the float spas

that's really neat so she has that and I've been there a few times and it's a really good way to kind of sit down just relax and it's if you haven't tried it before I have not yet yeah I'd recommend it it's really neat and it's really cool that we have that out here

in Cholawak right it's really neat and then we have sorry how does it work so you go in there like is it like a 30 minute thing? What is the process? I think you have 60 minutes or 90 minutes you can choose between, and it's basically all about sensory deprivation, right?

So you enter into the float spa and it's got water and it's filled with tons of Epsom salt, right? So you're floating, right? And so the whole thing is when you're in there, it's dark, it's quiet, you're floating away, you're essentially senseless. Like you have, there's no there's nothing to distract you. And

if you can filter all that out, all the distractions, stuff going on your mind and really just be in the moment, and experience in nothingness. It's very, like, freeing. It's very relaxing. And it's definitely very unique in terms of the experience that you get, right?

And so it's, I think it's really valuable, especially for someone who's always, like, on the phone, like, I'm always picking up my phone, right? Someone calls, I'm just like, okay, yeah, like you're always on edge, and it's good to just have us a bit of time that's just unwind and relax

and just be completely free of distractions, right? It's like a form of meditation, it sounds like. Yeah, exactly. or cold? It's kind of, well, I can't really remember it, but it's pretty neutral. Like you don't notice that, oh, this is too hot, this is too cold, it's just the right temperature, right? And it's purposely designed that way, right?

And so to have something like that out here in Chalach, I think it's really neat because it's, it's one of those businesses where it's, people don't necessarily understand the benefit of it, right, until they've done it. But how do you get them to actually do it in the first place, right? And that's kind of the hard part, I would imagine, right? But Mina's a great person. If you haven't met already, I recommend touching base with her. But she's really cool, really easy to talk to.

She runs her business, and she does it really well. And I love to support a business and refer people her away as well. And if you haven't checked it out, I recommend. Where is it again? It's in Garrison, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's right there by the, there's the envision there. There's like the waves, right?

It's within that same complex, right? So you definitely check that out. And how much is it usually? Well, I can't run off the top of the head. Like $100 for one float or something? You get discounts based. I think you can buy packages and stuff like that. Yeah.

You can't remember off the top of my head exactly because I just bought, I just bought multiple passes at once the last time I went and I still got a couple. What made you do it in the first place? So the first time I actually went for a float was in Vancouver. Okay. And it was in Gastown. And I worked there and said to try it out and I liked it, right? But back then, you know, I was still kind of a student, right?

I was like, well, I don't have the money to spend regularly. But I'd still go check it out. And then I went to one in Calgary. And so went a few times. And then I learned about the float spot here. And because I said, well, I haven't been to one in a while. Do we have anything around here? And then that's when I found their space, right?

And yeah, so I heard about it. But then I didn't actually get to meet Nina until we came part of like a networking group, right? And I met Nina, actually. And then I was like, oh, so you own that business? Okay, that's cool. I always wanted to check that space out. But then I checked it out, right? So, yeah, it reminds me overdue for a float soft of one of those pretty soon, right?

But that's pretty neat to have, right? And then just so many businesses come to mind. Like Tim McAlpine, for example, with the co-work space, that is awesome. It's the best base I've seen. Can you tell us a little bit more about it? Yeah, it's a lot of the corks spaces I see are just older office spaces. And what they do is they just put up walls, add some locks to doors and say it's a corks space. It's not a corks space.

It's just a shared office space building, but it's not nothing fancy about it. It's very bare bones. I see a lot of those, right? But to have like actual purpose-built co-working space, that's really neat where, you know, like, for example, there's no key to get into the front door. It's your phone, right?

Your phone is the key. And you could access the building and everything is really modern. Everything's all like teched up, right? Thermostat's all like, it's all fancy stuff, right? And you've got the decor, the design, like even stuff like the, like there is no,

moldings on the floor. It's like that kick plate kind of thing. It looks really neat, but it's very, functional, it's very cost-effective, and I appreciate that in design, and I get to see that, and even clients notice, clients, it's interesting when they enter the building, first thing to say is, I do idea this place existed. A second of all, this is a really cool space, and they want to look around and get to see more about it, they see certain design features, right?

All these little quirky things, and they see it, and they notice it. And that, to me, shows a really strong attention to detail in design and the customer experience. And all of that, right? It doesn't happen accidentally. So to see that, I think that's really neat. That's something, you know, they thought about that, Tim and his team, and they put that into motion. That's really cool, right?

And everyone's got their own office space, right? All kinds of office space sizes. You got the studio in there. So you mentioned the podcast studio, right? Full on professional setup, right? All the best gear. They got the studio space as well. Like, all the cameras, TVs.

Like, I don't even know, like, what any of the stuff does. Like, I have no background in AV. But I can tell. This is a really professional high-end setup, right? And they run events out of there, all kinds of events, all kinds of cool things going on, right? And it's really neat to be part of it, right? I'm working, and then I hear, you know,

some band is practicing out of the studio, right? Or shooting some kind of podcast or some kind of seminar going on on there, right? It's really cool. Yeah, and then you have the kitchen areas, you know, get coffee, get tea, get full-service kind of kitchen. You can put your food in the fridge for one and two, heat it up. like it's it's all it's all shared it's all really neat right creates a community kind of feel to it right and like it's different people different businesses that work out of there

so you get all kinds of businesses it's really neat to learn about people and businesses in that space because there's such diversity right and yeah it's um yeah it's like like i said the best space i've seen and so when i saw that space and i was like wow we had this in cheloac that's awesome and location the pricing like everything works out right I said, this is a no-brainer. And every time I see him, I tell him, like, hey, good stuff for this space. Right, my clients commented on it and, you know, great work, right? But, yeah, I know.

So, yeah, he's great. And he's been involved in supporting small businesses for a very long time, right, with his activities out here. But, yeah, he's a really good person to know. And he's very passionate about education and small businesses, right? And those are two things I really, you know, get. So I have a lot of respect for him and appreciate what he's done out here. And who else? there's a lot of family-owned restaurants out here, right?

Like, I know there's a burger shack and trying to start their franchise. Yeah. They got really great burgers. It's right close to the home. I love that place. That place has phenomenal burgers and phenomenal fries and great service.

They're always just working in the back, trying their best to offer the best food. That's really delicious. And they have I Yong family restaurant in downtown Chilac there. Great service, right? Family-run business. And every time I go there, you know, it makes me feel like,

good to support their business right just just really great that's one of a nox's favorite spots as well right there's also hallmark promotion so um laura runs that space she did my um the the phone wallet kind of thing right like i'll bring it up here right i don't know if you can really see that really well but you know i wanted something that kind of stood out a bit more right in terms of color design but also you know something like this right because most of these phone walls we don't have this right But you can use this to, you know, hold on to the phone. You can use it as a stand, right? It has more functionality, right?

And when I talked to Laura, I said, listen, like, I'm not just looking for, like, the basic stuff, right? I want something that offers a little more. And I'm really hard to please in that sense because I've done my own marketing ever since day one for not just this business, but everything I've done, right? So I'm really picky, like, I design my own pens, business cards, everything, right? So I was like, I'm really picky when it comes to this stuff. And I need someone who kind of gets what I'm looking for, right? And so she threw a bunch of stuff together and we eventually found really great quality, great looking products.

It really just made sense. And I was like, thank you, right? So she worked hard to piece that together for me. And yeah, her office is Hallmark Promotion. So it's right behind the co-work space pretty much, right? But, yeah, they do a lot of really cool stuff out of there. And, yeah, when it comes to swag, like I said, if it's an umbrella, a two phone wallet, pen, whatever it is it's it's your brand it's people will wear it they'll use it and they'll think

of your business right and it reflects on your business if you've got stuff that's low quality or it doesn't make sense or it's just you know i don't know like a gimmick kind of thing um it reflects kind of poorly in your brand right so you want someone understands what you're trying to do right and so she understood it um and put that in motion so that's great um and then we have um there's another fellow, Steve Emmond, he's a home inspector out here, and I talk to him. And, you know, he's a really cool guy to know. He's helped me out and other things as well. Just give him a call. He's always there to help, but he's really thorough in what he does, and he loves what he does, right? And I've worked with my dad in the cabin business for a long time. I've met all kinds of traits, right?

And it's always disheartening to meet people who don't love what they do, right? My dad loves what he does. And he has people he knows who refers to work too, who also love what they do, right? but sometimes they're a job site and I worked in him for a long time but people don't love what they do and it shows in their work. There's sloppy work, nothing's on time, everything's off schedule,

they hold up everybody else and they just don't care, right? And it shows and it's like, well, why are you doing this job, right? And, you know, but with Steve, he has a passion for it as a home inspector, right? And he really gets into it, he has the science behind it, he explains everything inside and out, and he's a good person to know, right? So if I have clients who have a need to get that kind of work done,

I say, hey, you know, give this guy a call, right? But it was good to hear about his passion for it, right? And I had some issues with the car wants. And we thought there might be like a monoxide leak from the exhaust or something, right? So he swung by, right? And got underneath the car, test everything. He used to do a mechanic, right? So he did all of that, you know, no cost, just helping someone out, right?

And I appreciate that, right? and he went out of his way. So he's a great guy to know. And there's... Is there any real estate agents that you work with right now that really support what you're doing and how unique your approach is that we can talk about? There's a lot of really...

So when it comes to service-based industries like, you know, we're going to be realtors, mortgage brokers, they all have their edge, right? So you'll have, for example, some realtors and you know they're going to work really well with a certain type of client, right? They have a different approach, they have a different kind of background,

and they'll have the different strengths, right? So it's one of those things where there's no real, like, this is the best realtor of all time kind of thing, right? It's like everyone's got the strengths, everyone's got their weaknesses, and they all appeal to different people, right? You might send one client to one realtor and they say, you know what, or mortgage broker,

they'll see, you know what, I don't like their approach, right? And then it's okay, well, try this other person, right? And they're all highly reviewed, highly-reeded people, right? and they might say, okay, well, I like this person's style more, right? So it's a matter of finding that fit for the client. And I think a lot of realtors and mortgage workers will say the same thing is they're not going to please everybody, but when you find the clients that really fit with you, understand what trying to do, you work well with them.

Yeah, that's what I liked about Brett was that he was not saying, I will get every client in Chilliwack and I'll get all 80,000 people here. He was very clear that he has a very specific approach and a very specific mindset and perhaps a very specific clientele that he enjoys serving. Yeah. And there's this one realtor who's starting out. His name's Tyler Billen. He's with Rolla Page.

But he started out and he was, I remember the call. He wanted to learn more about what did lawyers and notaries do, right? And so he just gave me a cold call. I did a seminar at his brokerage, right? So he gave him a cold call. Say, hey, I saw he left some marketing material here. I want to give you a call and learn more about what do you do, right? And why should I refer clients to you over somebody else?

like what what advantage would there be and what's your role and it's kind of learning that kind of stuff right so total okay well when you refer clients um you get them the names of lawyers notaries right this is what our role is this what we do right this is what i try to do differently um and you know and this is my business this is what i'm trying to get set up um these are my competitive advantages and so okay cool and so you know it became clear off the bat that this is someone who's very keen on learning, right? Excuse me. It's not afraid to ask the questions.

It just wants to really just learn and dive into things, right? And so he's okay, sounds good. So we referred some clients to me. And every time he's got a question, it gives me a call right away, right? And I do my best to help them out, right? Answer what are questions he's got? And we had a file where it was, it turned out to be a First Nations land leasehold property, right?

And, you know, I try don't take too many of those on because, you know, it's, it's a bit more work in terms of dropping things off. Each First Nation land registry is different. So each local band is different in terms of how they deal with those transactions. So for me right now, it can be a lot to take on. But it's an area I want to get into, obviously, a lot more. But for now, I'm trying to not get too much in that space and tie up more staff, right? but so you had a file like that and I'm like okay well there's a lot of things we have to kind of discuss right and it's a different kind of transaction altogether and you know I could tell

you really put the work in to learn as much as he could about it right and called me up we talked about all the different ins and outs what do I need what's going on and you know I explained it to him and he was just like yeah he's like I'm all about learning and not like the challenge and and yeah and he uh you know really took that on, right? And I like that. Like people who are tenacious, they're new, they're starting out, they're not lazy about it. They call up, they figure out the answers, they get it done, right?

And I like that, because I'm the same way, right? So when I see that in someone else, I'm like, you know what, I like that, right? I want to support that. So he's been really impressive. He's referring me some files for sure, and he's and it's the same thing as when you meet people like that, especially younger realtors, mortgage brokers, any professional in that kind of space,

you can kind of, you know, tell which ones you're going to work better with, right? And so whenever I meet people like that, you know, it's, you want to support them and they support you and do you build your business here together, right? And that's the way it is because otherwise I tell them, like, you know, hey, look, you want to work with someone who's going to be here with you, with for you and your clients for the years to come. Not someone's going to retire soon, who's not going to refer anything back to you because they've already got their network. You want someone's going to be there for you, right? So if I have these people who are younger professionals like myself and we work together,

support each other, we get to build a business ticket together, right? And you're not going to get that trying to work with someone who's a totally different kind of new group, right? Not going to support your business. They've got their own network, right? So you're not going to get anything back from them, right? Not even Christmas card, right? So why bother, right?

So I'm trying to build those connections, right, with the up-and-comers. and, you know, when I see someone doing good work like that, putting the work in, you know, I do what I can to keep them in the back pocket and be there for them and build that relationship, right? So, but yeah, it's a tough world out there for, especially in the real estate and realtor a mortgage game because there's many players and it's really competitive and it changes all the time. it's really fast-paced technology. They're really quick to embrace it and get the word out there, right? Because if you don't have clients, you don't have any money, right? And if you don't close a deal, you don't get paid. So the pressure is always there, and you're always working.

And so I can appreciate the struggles that have to go through to build clientele because if you're a new realtor, why would anybody pick you or anybody else, right? It's tough. So I appreciate how difficult it is in that area, right? And so that's why I always try to offer to support them, right? Because even if you have a realtor or broker who's extremely successful, it didn't happen by accident. It didn't happen overnight. It took many years of grounding to get that point and a lot of challenges, right?

Because like I said, it's pretty cut through industry, right? And the mortgage side of things, I mean, there's quite a few, but to have worked with Jason Sadie. He's pretty well known here. But I've had files with him where, like, I always try to give clients credit, like, not clients, but I try to give people credit for what they do to the client. because sometimes the client doesn't know what their realtor broker had to struggle with to get to this point, right? And so I tell them, like, hey, look,

just so you know, for this deal to have worked, your realtor really went about for you. Like, they really put the hard work in and, you know, you should really appreciate that, right? And same with the broker, right? So at a file where Jason really went above and beyond and told the client, like, hey, look, like, he really, really went out of his way

to put this together, right? Like he put the work in. And, you know, when you give that credit, clients then know what goes on the background and they'll appreciate it a bit more, right? And it's important to, you know, give that credit, right? So, you know, realtors work with me, mortgage brokers who work with me, they get that. I support them. I support their business, right?

And these are the ways I do that, right? If you go anywhere else, would they do the same? I don't know, right? I haven't heard anything, right? Like usually it's for high volume command saying it's file comes in, file gets done, that's it. Talk to the client for 10 minutes. That's pretty much the game, right? But it's, to me, there's more potential there for providing that service to client

and also providing more to your referral network, right? Realtors, mortgage workers, whoever it is, supporting their business as well. Well, and coming across is a real team where you're all, you're saying the good things they did, and they're saying the good things you've done, and it's cohesive where the person who's being served feels like, okay, Chanel was honest with me that this person did that. Now I can go thank them. And you feel like you're part of a team. Like if I was buying a house and I had the opportunity to work with you and Jason, it would be like, wow, I really feel valued and that these people are being cohesive even when I'm not part of it and they're being upfront with each other and connecting

on that level. That makes hypothetically me feel good that I'm a part of a team that's working so hard and so cohesively and there isn't that Chanel's just trying to beat the other person and show that they made a mistake and show that Chanel's better than Jason like yeah those moments can arise and it's clear that you don't want that and that isn't something if you were to sit down with another like a notary that they would make clear is that we're going to give this person like that wouldn't be something you would say I'm going to give your broker credit for this role that they played you wouldn't go in with a consultation and have that conversation so it's awesome that we can have these conversations where those things do come up.

Yeah, and that's the goal is to create that seamless, integrated experience of the client where your realtor works hard for you. They're always available, always mobile, save with their mortgage broker. And I think the lawyer should be the last step, the last step, but they're often like the kind of off to the side, right? It doesn't really integrate. But for me, it's to be that last piece, right? That's the seamless integration, right?

Where you got a team working with you every step of the way to get this whole deal closed, right, to get you what you need. And that's what I'm trying to create is that kind of experience, right? So we work together as a team and the client feels great. They're part of the team. They're not like, oh, I'm working with my realtor, a mortgage broker, an inspector, and now this lawyer is like some random side piece at the end where it's like, okay, now I've got to meet with them.

It's not integrated. It feels kind of different, right? But it's to be seamless, right, to create that. So that's what I'm trying to do. That is awesome. Can you just tell us anything else you want to know and then tell us how people can find you? um yeah you can find me on um i've got a facebook page um that's uh i believe it's under alpine alpine lawyers but if you search for website all the information should be on there should come up

on google as well but i'm on facebook i'm not as active as it should be almost because i'm super busy but i try to at least post some stuff on there once in a while i've got my LinkedIn page which i use for a lot of networking other than that i need to definitely do more on the social media front. That's one of the things I want to do more of is how many lawyers or notice do do podcasts in this kind of space, right? We'll talk about real estate, whatever. I don't know anybody who does, right? I definitely think you are the next step to start a podcast because you're a very good speaker. Oh, thanks. Yeah, but that's the goal is to get more into that space. So once you get set up a bit more, have some staff that can help me with some of the workload, then I can then focus

on, you can have a name out there in that way, right? Other than that, I mean, feel free to always just shoot me an email, right? It's on the website, hello at alpineloiners.com. Like, even chose an email address, hello, right? It's because it sounds more inviting. Yeah.

People are like engaging, right? So, you know, yeah, and then even my business line, right, on my website, that's, so that actually forwards to a second line on my phone as well. So on my phone, I have two phone lines dedicated to that, right?

So I get calls from personal line business, right? So I'm very easily reached in that sense. Clients text me all the time, you know, and it's that accessibility. right where if I'm out and about all the time meeting clients at their houses going to banks doing all kinds of mobile services you need to be reachable right so that's one of the ways that's one of the things I offer is it's not just a phone sitting in the desk on desk somewhere where I'm not going to answer all day because I'm out and about it's for it's right to my mobile phone right

so I'm always reachable and accessible because you never know what kind of stuff comes up right and yeah and like I said if anybody needs kind of legal service even if I don't offer that service you know feel free to reach out anyways I can least refer you to someone who I know does good work in the area and I can refer you to them or I can even you know just do what I can to at least help you on some way right like I try to get my name out there and it's as helpful as possible and yeah I know and I really appreciate what you're doing with the podcast I think that like I said I thought about podcasting beforehand and I'm just like oh you know know, we could really use someone who can focus on all the good businesses we have out here,

all the stories out here, but I don't have the experience and that kind of stuff, right? And it's one of those things where I was always like, yeah, we great, someone did that, and then you come along, and you've got your own take on it, and you're really doing it, you've got the history of being here in Chilliwack, you've got your own stories, and you've got the interest in people, interest in businesses, and you put that together, right? And you really work hard on it, right? And I see the effort you put in, and, you know, it's, I respect that work ethics. and what you're trying to build, right?

And that's, I want to support that, right? And so I really appreciate you shining that spotlight, you know, on Chiluac and the great people we have out here, the great business that we have out here. And yeah, just keep doing what you're doing. And then whatever, how much way I can help you out, let me know, right? And especially in terms of yourself as an aspiring lawyer as well, right? The skills that you have, very hard to come by, but very valuable, right? And I'll also look forward to seeing you come out here in Chalawak and, you know,

you know, be a successful practicing lawyer as well. Well, the podcast isn't possible without stories like yours to give it the depth that it needs. Because if I was just interviewing regular people who have none of that life experience, who have none of those stories, the podcast doesn't have the foundation that it needs. So I'm so grateful. I know that you don't usually share the stories you shared on social media or stuff like that. So I'm truly honored that you were able to share those stories. I really hope that people got a lot out of this.

I know I did. we just did over two and a half hours. So I'm so grateful to have taken your time and I'm so grateful to have had you on. Not a problem, Aaron. Thanks for having me. We're going to be able to be. So, I'm going to

You're going to be.