Nuanced. - 121. MP Joyce Murray: Liberal Government, Politics & Conservation

Episode Date: August 15, 2023

This week Aaron sits down with Member of Parliament Joyce Murray to explore her impactful journey. From her early work in reforestation to her pivotal roles in British Columbia Provincial politics and Canadian Federal Politics, this episode provides a deep insight into Joyce's dedication and service.Joyce Murray is a Canadian politician and Member of Parliament (MP) known for her diverse contributions to environmental stewardship and governance. Co-founder of a reforestation company in British Columbia, she transitioned into provincial politics, serving in various cabinet positions. Elected as an MP in 2008, Murray's dedication to sustainable development, climate change solutions, and community well-being has marked her as a significant figure within the Liberal Party. Her career illustrates a blend of entrepreneurial spirit and political leadership at both provincial and federal levels, reflecting a commitment to responsible environmental and social practices.Send us a textThe "What's Going On?" PodcastThink casual, relatable discussions like you'd overhear in a barbershop....Listen on: Apple Podcasts   SpotifySupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger Than Me podcast. Here is your host, Aaron. Fish Populations is a topic we dive into a lot on this podcast. I care a lot about protecting wild salmon populations and understanding what steps we can take. I had the pleasure of speaking with someone who is a kindred spirit in this regard. Their work has had a vast impact on how we protect wild salmon populations. I had the pleasure of speaking with Member of Parliament, Joyce Murray. Joyce, would you mind introducing yourself for people who might not be acquainted?

Well, thanks, Erin, and great to be on your podcast. My name is Joyce Murray. I'm the member of Parliament for Vancouver Quadra. And I've just celebrated a milestone of 23 years in elected politics. Brilliant. Well, can we maybe start closer to the beginning and your work with the environment, planting trees. Can you talk about the early days

of working to protect the environment and this great gift of our land? Well, sure. So, Erin, I really was not clear about what I wanted to do as a career, actually, as a young person. So I did quite a bit of traveling and went to school in Cape Town in South Africa,

studied languages and music. I went to Europe and lived for a year in London. Again, I studied languages and music and traveled. And so I was not clear what my next step would be. Then when I returned to Vancouver, I went into archaeology and things like linguistics and discovered that sciences was of interest and began to fund my university through planting trees.

So that's kind of the early exploration. That was part of my first 23 years of life. And then I met and married my now husband, Dirk Brinkman, and we've just celebrated 46th anniversary. So my second 23-year period of life was marriage, raising a family and building a tree planting business from what was a part-year one crew initiative to what became a much more substantial reforestation

and ecosystem restoration company. And so that was my second 23 years, a chunk of life. And my third was seeking a nomination to go into public life and contribute some of the, eclectic and diverse interests and talents that I had after doing an MBA, which was focused on climate policy and environmental policy at SFU. So that's really some of the non-linear voyage that I have undertaken, and it's been an amazing opportunity to work with people.

and to navigate complexity to aim, aiming for creating positive change. Fair to say that that was one of the deep dives into protecting the environment and starting to understand ecosystems on a deeper level, or was this something that was of interest of you before starting the reforestation projects? You know, environment was not as much on my radar as people. and people's well-being and adventure. It was always on my radar. So I began to really resonate with the need for thinking about ecosystems as a tree planter,

spending days sometimes in a burned-over almost wasteland of a former forest. And, yeah, so that translated into when I did my MBA and started in 89. completed it in 92, I was very focused on public policy that is constructive for ecosystems and the environment because, you know, clearly that is an important way to have healthy people. And as you probably are aware, I did my final project, which was a substantial body of work on climate change and nature-based solutions. And so I've had that on my website is a politician ever since. So when people encourage me to do more on climate, I thank them for their advocacy, and I invite them to take a read of my climate policy research

from 30 years ago, and I assure them that I am and will always be an advocate for strong action on climate change. Brilliant. You then, as you mentioned, start to dive into provincial politics. What was the calling? What was the inertia that brought you in that direction? I was recruited, actually. It had never occurred to me that being a public representative would be my career path. And so I met Gordon Campbell, who was the opposition leader at the time at a truck

Loggers Convention here in Vancouver, which is the annual convention of various components of the forest industry, all of the representatives of this industry, and I was there with the with the reforestation contractors. And I went up to the mic to speak and challenge some of the what I was hearing from captains of industry and government. And I think the, the, Gordon, who later became the Premier, observed that and thought, okay, there's somebody who's going to fight for what she believes in, and he said, I should run with you. And my answer was not a chance. The party I've been involved with is the Green Party. Anyway, so I definitely backtracked on that and decided to seek a nomination. And that was 23 years ago. So here began the most recent

23-year chapter, and I've just turned 69, so it was a moment of reflection about three weeks ago or four weeks ago as to just the rhythm of my life, which one does on a birthday. And I was very curious as to what the next chapter would bring, and so I remain curious. I'm wondering about entering politics. When you talk to people, people who might have an interest or an inkling that maybe they want to make a difference. There's all of these understandings that you kind of think of politics as. As an outside viewer, you don't know what it's like to get into some of these rooms and start to have conversations about what are we actually going to accomplish.

What are the actual next steps for politics? Was it what you expected entering into it? When you enter into the actual rooms, was it what you anticipated and did it meet expectations? Well, Aaron, I hadn't a clue as to what it would be about, and I had not spent, you know, time or years thinking about this might be something I want to do. So it went from being a suggestion by Gordon Campbell to deciding to seek a nomination and then becoming elected in a writing that had traditionally been NDP, but, of course, the BC Liberals did win a landslide that year, and that sort of flushed me in. And my very first time entering the BC legislature

was as the appointed minister of the environment. So it was a great, it was a grand adventure. It was, of course, a challenge. But I do bring a business background and a commitment to a good environmental policy. and a problem-solving set of skills. And so being part of the BC liberal government when our mandate was to bring the economy back

and strengthen the economy and find ways to advance good public policy on the environment was my challenge for those years. And I had the privilege of setting the foundation for what became the BC government's groundbreaking, climate policy that they put forward in 2007, but the foundation was something that I was able to put in place. So what's my advice to people?

Just bring yourself and your interests and your capabilities and be open to what the opportunities might be. I mean, that's my view. And whether I was a backbench MP and office. opposition or a cabinet minister, I looked at what were the opportunities to move things forward in a way that I felt would be constructive for people and the planet. And I think it's really use your own talents and find the opportunities and work to move the aisle.

So a past interview I had was the former Speaker of the House, Daryl Plekis, and he talks about one of the challenges being that there's this group mentality that you have to be cognizant of. You want to make sure that if you want to advance something that it's an issue that's important to you, that you hold on to that and don't have things kind of push to the back and make sure that you advocate for the interests that you have for your constituents, for your members, and for people at large. and it seems like that's something you've been very good at. And I'm just wondering, how do you make sure you keep that balance? Obviously, as a party, there's sometimes different goals than as the individual you might have. How did you strike that balance? Well, that's a really great question, Aaron. And I don't have a formula for that.

And so what that tells me is everyone is going to figure it out based on their strengths and their worldviews and their training. I mean, somebody with a legal background would do things different. different than somebody, you know, I mean, I actually finished free men in that set of explorations as to what I wanted to do. And so I have a very eclectic background, and it's just really about maybe stubbornness and a strong sense of purpose. So I do get that I need to bring people on board. I mean, one example of, so there's been a number of initiatives that I've picked up and pushed forward that have actually made it into a public policy. And just one example is plastics. So you never know where these things are going to come from.

But I had a Karen Riston, who was Living Ocean Society executive director, brought a constituent with. her into my office, you know, back six, eight years ago, to say that there is a real problem with oceans plastics and that she had been working with others on a volunteer basis to go and collect plastic off of beaches because it affects sea life and both birds and fish and actually can be a killer. But the money had run out. I said, what money? She said, well, we had three years of money from Japan post-sunami.

And what can you help us find out if there's any money in the federal government for this? So I went to talk to the minister of transport, the minister of environment, the minister of fisheries and oceans, Dominique LeBlanc at the time. and there was no federal money for cleaning plastics out of the ocean. So I decided we got to have that and did a two-page paper with lots of references and, you know, footnotes about size of the problem, which is that we would have more weight of plastic in the ocean than fish in the ocean in 50 years if we didn't tackle this. And so as an MP, a backbench MP, well, I was a parliamentary secretary, actually,

but as a non-cabinet minister, you still get to be in front of people in caucus meetings. And so I did a series of presentations to caucus because I had found out that the DFO said, you know, plastics is not our issue, check environment and environment and said, well, if it's in the oceans, it's not our issue. And, you know, we talked to transport, and transport said, unless it's coming off of ships, it's not our issue. So both the Environment Minister at the time, Catherine McKenna, and the Prime Minister's office, key people,

were kind of paying attention. And Catherine McKenna came to me and said, I'm interested, can you share that paper with me? And I also recognize it was, we were the leaders for the upcoming G7.June meeting. And I went to the prime minister's principal secretary at the time and said, if you're looking for things to put on the G7 agenda, here's one, gave him the paper. And so the prime minister did put it on the G7 agenda. And Catherine McKenna put it on the G7 Environment Ministers meeting agenda.

and our government has moved forward on plastics in a way that is leading edge. So it was just a bit of a nudge from me in a position that nobody asked me to, you know, work on plastics. I think all MPs do that. You see MPs do some amazing work on whether it's on human rights or gender equity or food policy or environment. That's the opportunity of being in elective office and it's available to everyone. and it is fabulously satisfying. I'm really encouraging people to get into politics if they see it as a potential path.

Beautiful. Can you tell us about the difference between provincial politics and federal politics? What motivated you to make that change? Well, a simple motivation, Aaron, was that the BC liberals came in in a landslide and I was in an NDP constituency. And when we had the next election,

and I was not re-elected. So it's like, okay, now what am I going to do? And so, you know, that's why I decided that this was a very good application of my eclectic set of skills and interests. And, you know, my business and MBA enabled ability to analyze things and to move things forward and bring people together to get action. So I decided to run federally in New Westminster. Quigitlam, ran with Paul Martin's last election, which, of course, we lost, and then was asked by Stefan Dion to chair his leadership campaign for BC. So I was the BC chair. So I spent about a year on a, you know, voluntary basis helping get delegates to Montreal for that convention. And of

course, he went, squeaked through, which was really awesome. And so then I thought, okay, this is the leader that I want to work with, and how am I going to be able to do that? It's not by running in New Westminster, and I decided to move to my, to the neighborhood where I grew up as a child and went to school, which is Vancouver Quadra. And when an opening came, I ran here, and that's what's led to this amazing 15 years as a member of parliament. Do you notice a significant difference in the quality of conversations or the issues that are rising? Obviously, they have two different jurisdictions. I'm just curious what the interactions are like. Do you find that federal politics was a better fit for you than provincial politics?

What are your thoughts on that? Well, so I didn't really answer your question, though, about what are the differences? But, you know, from my perspective, you're working with people, you're working with public policy, you're bringing your constituents' interests and priorities forward, and you're using your own skills and experience to convert that into change and making a difference. And so to me, the basic, you know, whether it's local, provincial, or federal, those key elements are the same. And so I've just gone back and answered your previous question.

Can you tell us about your work as a minister? I have heard glowing recommendations of your work from Elder Eddie Gardner, who's a local to my area, Chilliwack, Robert Chamberlain. I've heard amazing things about the work you're doing from Dean Work. Several past guests have said that they've been on a boat with you where you're looking at things and you're getting information on the front end that you're able to take back and start to make informed decisions about fisheries, about our oceans, about how to best protect.

this land in these waterways. Can you talk about your work as a minister? Well, sure, I can. So first, it's very kind of you to pass on those positive references. The work of a minister is of a different character, but fundamentally, the purpose is the same as the work as an MLA or MP, which is to get to know the priorities of your constituency, your own priorities, and, you know, bring them together and

seek to make a positive difference for people and the planet. So there you have a bit more direct levers as a minister for sure. So, I mean, I was a minister for four years in the BC government, three years as environment, and one year as the Minister of Management Services. and then almost five years in the federal government. So it's hard to summarize that, Erin. I bring me to whatever job I'm doing. I don't think it's more important to do one thing or another thing. Whether you're a minister or not a minister,

you need to bring people along. You need to listen and work with other people. You need to make sure that you're listening and that the things that you're trying to do. I mean, it's just like any project, you do your best, and some things are going to work and some things aren't going to work. I had the chance to work on aquaculture when I was Environment Minister provincially, actually, because for the first time, I brought in regulations to protect the seabed floor. from the accumulation of waste from the salmon aquaculture farms, which in some cases were cited where the tides and the currents were not moving the waste away,

and they were actually suffocating all of the sea life on the seabed floor. So, you know, there was a bit of a closing of a circle that become a minister for DFO, which has been an absolutely awesome opportunity also to think about people and their jobs, to think about conservation, how do we manage fisheries? So we're creating opportunities, but that we're not overfishing. And also to introduce climate change and the kinds of restoration of the sea to have nature-based solutions in the ocean, so ocean-based climate solutions. So that was a big theme for me at DFO is how can I help contribute to my country

and the world's action on climate change through my leadership at DFO. So very satisfying for me to embed some of that into the department and thinking and the policies at DFO. I'm going to push back a bit and just say that I think your role really does matter because when we look at it from an indigenous perspective, trying to make sure that there are salmon for future generations is a huge concern for so many members of my indigenous community and people at large. And the work that you are doing is impactful.

It has a scaling effect across a whole province when we're talking about healthy salmon populations and starting to get a better balance on how many fish farms exist. What was your mindset on that particular issue? How did you process the information from my understanding? you get a lot of people coming to you saying, this is what we think you should do. This is what we think you should do. This is our perspective.

And you have to kind of soak all of that in and make the best decision as possible for everybody involved. And that's a balancing act. And I'm just wondering, how did you kind of process that particular issue? Wow. Well, that is a very challenging question, Aaron, because there's a lot of elements to that. The transition away from open net pen salmon aquaculture is one that I advocated for back when Dominic LeBlanc was the fisheries minister because I was concerned about wild salmon. Now, our government has done a historic amount of work to restore habitat and focus on restoring wild salmon, and that's through the Pacific Salmon Strategy Initiative, accompanied by 750. million dollars. So I think that to sum up the aquaculture transition, we are as a government

committed to that. And it means really having a thoughtful approach because they're first nations who have jobs and small businesses in those areas. And so I was recently really thinking deeply about what would it be like for communities that are dependent on the salmon aquaculture industry in their historic territories to have opportunities to create equally jobs, businesses, benefits from a conservation-based economy. And so what would that look like? And what would they choose if that was available, if there was a menu of possibilities? If we go back to the Great Bear Rainforest Initiative in the Central Coast of British Columbia, that's exactly what was done to reflect the fact that the giant cedars and fir trees and the Central Coast rainforests that were being clear cut, have an important ecological as well as social value.

So the Great Bear Rainforest, actually that initiative started with Gordon Campbell when I was the Environment Minister sitting in a boardroom at the downtown PMO or Premier's office down a Canada place with a set of leaders from the conservation community and the Premier, myself and Stan, Hagen, who is the lands minister at the time, and the premier saying to the conservation leads, you know, there's probably 20% that you and I don't agree on, and 80% that we do. Let's work on this 80%. Do you think that's possible? And we have this two-hour meeting that set the foundation for what became the Great Bear Rainforest and now is emerging as the Great Bear Sea, because the ocean conservation commitment of Mr. Trudeau's liberal government is very, very strong, and it's very ambitious and underway. So that's a long way of saying, we have done this before, had a transition.

We've done it in a way that is respectful of indigenous peoples, legacy, reconciliation, their culture, their values, and their opportunities to earn a living where they have traditionally lived. And I think that there is equally that possibility with the open-net salmon aquaculture transition to work through what would a conservation economy look like that would be paying in terms of jobs and businesses and benefits. And so I'm optimistic that the new minister will continue that work and that the indigenous communities will see that opportunity and be part of a discussion. I have two more questions for you.

Thank you again for being willing to do this. This is so fascinating. The next one is just around the weight that sits on your shoulders. When I think about how Eddie Gardner, who's an elder, talks about how important salmon is to our communities and how important these issues are to him, I imagine that you feel that when you're making decisions like this. And that's a lot of weight to have on your shoulder when it comes to making a decision, whether it's to make an industry a bit smaller, to do things a bit differently. That's a lot of onus that you have to carry.

How do you process that and how do you carry decisions that are going to have vast impact over years and years and years? Well, Erin, I mean, firstly, there is a new minister of fisheries. And it is so when you put, when you say this in the present tense, that is no longer my, my responsibility. So I can talk about my experience on that from almost nine years in cabinet between provincial and federal. And that is that if it's the right thing to do for people in the planet, and you're working with the different constituencies, which you have to do to make any policy changes. And one of those most important constituencies is indigenous. communities, with our deep commitment to undrip-based reconciliation, it's really by listening

to people and including them that I'm convinced one moves forward on a path that is the right path. So, I mean, it's hard to crystallize an answer to such a broad question that I think it's about including people and not charging ahead to do things oneself. And I'm also by nature, not somebody who's easily deterred from what I think is a positive pro-social, pro-ecological, pro-economic outcome. And so if we hit a roadblock, it's like, okay, let's sit down and think about what more we can do or what else we can do, and let's talk about it. So, you know, the weight of responsibility, I think we all share that every individual and society has a responsibility for how, you know, what kind of world we will, our next

generation will be living in. And we all feel that way to some degree. Being an elected representative, I have had and still have an opportunity to, to make positive change, as I talked about earlier. And so I don't see that so much as a weight. I see that as an, you know, an incredible blessing that I need to use skillfully and wisely. And I am also very compared with when I started in elected politics 23 years ago, the role of indigenous communities, just the powerful role, it's been, it's like night and day, and I think that's also so positive for our future. So I'm an optimist, but I'm also a pragmatist.

So there's a lot of work to do. I mean, I started out writing a thesis on climate change 30 years ago, and I shopped it. I actually flew out to Ontario to sell it to the head of Ontario, a hydro and that was doing coal-fired plants and nuclear and I shopped it to the deputy

I actually had a meeting with the deputy minister of natural resources, federal natural resources department and said I want you to read this. This is about that we need to do nature-based solutions but really it's a climate change thesis. So read it and let's start

incorporating these kinds of this kinds of thinking. And I think people thought I was a little bit off my rocker years ago. But we're doing that stuff now. So I know it takes time, takes so many people all moving in the same direction, so many climate activists and so many thoughtful citizens saying this is important to do. Our government is the one that picked up the baton and has been working on that for 15 years. And I think that that's incredibly important to continue.

that momentum on conservation and climate and actually accelerate it for the benefit of future generations. So it's not a weight. It's been a huge opportunity. It's been a thrill. And I remain at this point still the member of parliament for Vancouver Quadra. And it's those voters that allowed me to do all that I've been able to do in federal politics. And so I want to express my appreciation, my deep appreciation for their trust in me.

The final question is just you've talked about how you're reflecting during this time. You're starting to step back as minister. So I'm just wondering, what are some of those reflections? That's a long time to serve. It's a lot of legacy that you're leaving behind. What are the emotions you're feeling? Well, I think that the, um, Emerging emotion is curiosity and enthusiasm for what my next adventure might be. Erin, my philosophy about this all along has been that life is an amazing adventure. And so to be open, to trust my intuition, learn to listen to my intuition and trust it. And then, I mean, I did so many things that were, you know, not very rational, really.

Over the years, they were just intuitive, like seeking the leadership of the Liberal Party of Canada when I was pretty much an unknown. But, hey, that led to a whole lot of things actually going into our Prime Minister Trudeau's first election campaign, everything from gender-based. gender equal boards and commissions and cabinet to putting a price on carbon and, you know, other things. So you never know what's going to come out. You just have to trust your instincts and be willing to be curious and open to what your next adventure is and then use all of your strengths and skills to do your very best to make a difference. So I know that that's not over for me. It may be over in the form that my last 23 years is presented, which is elective office, and I remain enthusiastic and curious and committed to making a difference.

I couldn't agree more. As I said, I have so many people who have spoken so highly of you having the opportunity to speak with you and work with you on some of these key issues that impact our communities. I can't thank you enough for your time today. I really appreciate you being willing to sit down and share some of your reflections over such a long period of service to Canada, to British Columbia. I really appreciate you being willing to take the time. Well, thank you, Erin, for what you're doing, really, to acknowledge the broad range of people who make a difference in our society. I mean, it really is a team. This is a team play. It's the people of Canada. Thank you for being a leader.

Brilliant. How can people find you if they're looking online, how can they connect with you and your journey as you move into new endeavors? Well, that's a good question. I haven't over right now. Joyce.murray.p9 at parl.g.c.com.c.a. I'm a member of Parliament for Vancouver Quadra. They can pretty easily look me up that way and send a message and it'll get to me. Thank you again for your time. Okay, yeah, thank you.