Nuanced. - 122. Amanda Peters: Mi'kmaq Author on Her Debut Novel "The Berry Pickers"

Episode Date: August 22, 2023

Prepare to be enchanted by the power of storytelling as Aaron sits down with Amanda Peters, an esteemed author and professor with a deep connection to her ancestral roots and culture. In this captivating discussion, Amanda shares her journey to becoming a writer and the importance of community and identity in her art. From her inspiring family support to an exclusive sneak peek into her innovative creative process behind her novel, "The Berry Pickers," Amanda's transformative approach to writing and inspiration drawn from a conversation with an artist will leave you spellbound.Amanda Peters is an author and serves as an Associate Professor in the Department of English and Theatre at Acadia University in Wolfville, Nova Scotia.Send us a textThe "What's Going On?" PodcastThink casual, relatable discussions like you'd overhear in a barbershop....Listen on: Apple Podcasts   SpotifySupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger Than Me podcast. Here is your host, Aaron Pete. Where do stories come from? Do they come from the subconscious? Do they come from the unconscious? Do they come from the ether? How do we develop these stories and write great fiction? Today, I'm speaking with the author of the Barry Pickers,

where we explore the idea that great stories come from the ancestors. My guest today is Amanda Peters. Amanda, it is such a... privilege to sit down with you this morning. Would you mind introducing yourself briefly for individuals who might not be acquainted with your work? Sure. My name's Amanda Peters, and I live in work in the Annapolis Valley, Nova Scotia. I'm Migma and Settler from Gluscott First Nation here in the Annapolis Valley. And I wrote a, I'm a writer, and I wrote a book called The Berry Pickers, which I'm very happy with that people are liking it. So that's good. Yeah, and I just, I'm

I've just been hired as an associate professor at Acadia University, also here in the Annapolis Valley. So that's nice, short commute, and I get to do what I love. And people are going to pay me to do that. So that's really exciting. That's me in that show. Can you tell us about getting interested in writing? It sounds like this is something you were always really passionate about, and I'm just

curious as to what made you follow this endeavor, follow your passion in this way. Yeah, I've always wanted to be a writer in my whole life. Like, I used to write short stories in high school and get them to my English teacher when I didn't have to. A lot of people hated that, but I loved it. But when I graduated high school, I kind of wanted to make sure that I had a really stable life. And, you know, the old rumor that you can't make a living as a writer. So I was like, okay. So I did a whole bunch of degrees to get a really good job in administration and governance.

So I worked with the Atlantic Policy Congress here of First Nation Chiefs here in Nova Scotia. Atlanta, and I worked for my own community of Glooscat First Nation for a while, and then I worked for the First Nations Financial Management Board. But in 2012, I decided that now I have this, what I thought was supposed to be my good life, I had my house, and I was all set up. So I took a course at University of Toronto to their continuing education. And it was on how to write a novel. And I was like, I love the course so much. I ended up doing the entire certificate. And I was lucky to also the Nova Scotia Writers Federation had a mentorship program, which I applied for and I got, the Alastair MacLeod mentorship program. And then a friend of mine said, have you heard of the

Institute for American Indian Arts? I said, I haven't. I said they do a low residency master of fine arts and creative writing. And I kind of found my people there. It was a, it's just a brilliant, brilliant place. And I just, I got all the writerly love that writers need. And they helped me actually write the Barry Pickers through workshop in that course. So yeah, so I always wanted to be writer. I took a really long route to get there. And my first book came out when I was 46. So yeah, that's where I'm at. In a CBC interview, you mentioned that stories come from the ancestors. I'm wondering if you can elaborate on that. Yeah. People always say, where do your stories come from? And I always say it's this mythical place where stories come from. And in my instance,

I had a friend of mine tell me because I've always kind of had an issue with my identity. being mixed migma and non-migma. And I always kind of felt uncomfortable in my own skin. And he said to me once, your stories are your ceremony. Your stories come from the ancestors. This is how you are a migma. And that meant the world to me. And I really think that's true because I don't know where stories come from sometimes.

They just appear. So he said they come from the ancestors. And they come out through your arm and through your pen or through the keyboard. So I really hold on to that. And you also talked about how this is your. connection to your culture. And I think that that's really important. Many people who are indigenous are, have a complicated relationship with it. And I often comment that it's challenging to adopt that identity solely because we're complex individuals. We're not just one thing. And

if you didn't grow up on reserve, it can feel like you're distanced from your culture in some ways and that you're not fully indigenous or you're not fully connected. And so there's almost a hesitation to fully hold on to that and hold space for that. I'm wondering how you've navigated that. It sounds like comments from other indigenous people have helped support you in kind of fully feeling this and being able to show that side of yourself. Yes, you've said that so well better than I've ever could. But yeah, exactly. There's certain ways we can be indigenous. Everybody's a different person, right? I hate it when everybody assumes that we want to dance at the powwow or assumes that we practice spirituality.

My way of being MiGMA is to tell stories with MiGMA people in them to reflect our experience here on the East Coast because there's a lot of indigenous literature, brilliant indigenous literature from like Ontario and Alberta and BC, but I really think Nova Scotia and New Brunswick Migmagia here has so much brilliance too, but it's not as big. So I'm really excited to be contributing to that. And yeah, there's been so many people in my MiGMA friends and family who have just said, this is, we're so proud of you as a MiGMA woman doing this work. And it just means a world to me. I got an email from a lady from Eskosone, First Nation, who I don't know, who had read the book and said, I love how you captured our being in this book. And that meant

the world to me. The fact that other MiGMA people are seeing themselves in this and that I can contribute to us being in the world a little bit more. You write fiction. And it's often said that fiction isn't literally true, but it's meta-true, that it is representative of a bunch of different stories all culminating in one, but it's not a literal depiction of one person's life. Can you talk about the decision to write fiction to be able to pull from different ideas and to develop one unique story? Yeah, I had a mentor at the Institute for American Indian Arts, Pam Houston, and she said there's nothing true than fiction. And it is true because we are human beings. And so as human beings, we put ourselves into the work.

So I like fiction because I have a vivid imagination. So this particular book, The Barry Pickers, was actually a culmination of a whole bunch of stories told by my dad. So my dad, when he found out I was writing, was like, you should write about us. You should write about the Barry Pickers because he himself and his family were Barry Pickers in the 60s and 70s in Maine. And I said, I write fiction, dad. I don't write nonfiction. I make things up. So I said, no, I don't write.

I don't want to write about the Barry Pickers' Dad. So he said, well, just come with me. So he went to Maine, him and I for three days, packed up the Prius and went to Maine. And he showed me the fields. He showed me the Berry Fields, where him and the family used to work. He told me so many amazing stories, and I recorded them all, and I took photos. Unfortunately, I can't find any of those right now, which is stressing me out. But I took all these photos and listened to all these stories.

So while this is a work of fiction, there are little tidbits in there that came from those stories. Like, how do I know how they picked berries back in the 60s and 70s? Well, I took that stories from my dad. Or there's a few little humorous bits in there that are actually real. Like, there was a man down there who was afraid of bears. And that comes up in the story, just a tiny little bit, right? And even my mom's side of the family. Like, my grandmother loved pink peppermints.

So I put pink peppermints into the story. So, yeah, there's nothing true with fiction because we put ourselves into it. What was it like to be able to take this journey with your father and start to understand his perspective and some of the experiences he had. You talked about how there were ghost stories, how there were some fights going on. Can you just talk about being able to have that connection and start to draw inspiration from a family member? Yeah, it was so much fun.

Like, it really, I don't know, my dad's always been a storyteller. He tells the same story over and over again. But after he started telling this story and I started writing it, and especially since it's come out, everybody has a very picking story, right? So everybody has been calling me saying, oh, I have a story or writing me. I have very picking stories. And yeah, I think I forgot your question a little bit. My phone writing distracted me.

Some of the stories that you actually were able to take away. You talked about ghost stories and other pieces. I'm just curious, can you share any of those pieces of inspiration? Yeah. So like a lot of my dad included and a lot of people who are telling me these stories now, we're like, oh, I have the best ghost story. Like I saw a ghost when I was like little and I was walking across the field. back to camp and there was a ghost woman who came. And I was like, oh, really? And my dad always

talked about, my grandmother would tell them there was the hatchet woman and she wandered the road so that the kids wouldn't leave the camp at night because they were scared that she was going to get them. But it was, there wasn't really a hatchet woman there, but it kept the kids close to camp so that they didn't stray. So yeah, there's just so many amazing stories. There's stories of violence, of course, because we're all human and these things happen. But there's also stories of joy and there's stories, there's hilarious stories about, there's one about a monkey that I don't really remember, but why is a monkey in the Berryfields of Maine? I don't know. Yeah, so there's a lot of stories that I was able to pull from and still, still people are telling me. So, yeah, I don't

know what to do with them, but there's a lot of great stories. The Berry Pickers comes about, you work on the first chapter and then it seems like you're grappling with it for a period of time, and then you go off for further education. And as you already sort of described, this is where you start to develop a community and you're able to start to develop further how this novel, how this story is going to come about. Can you talk about getting started and that journey into more education that helped you kind of finish this book? Yeah, sure. So I wrote the first chapter like in 2017 when my dad and I went down there. I started it and I stayed on this first chapter for two years. That seems like a lot. But I thought it was going to be a short story at first. But I took it to a

workshop at the Banff Center. I was in the Emerging Writers Intensive in 2018, and they said this, this deserves to be a novel, or this feels like it's a novel. It's not a short story. So they workshopped it and helped me get the first chapter fixed. And then I was like, okay, now what do I do? And then I, in 2020, when I started at IAIA, I only had like an outline and a few things here and a few things there. But because I was working on it, we have to do creative packages every semester, I would use the opportunity to do a chapter and then have these brilliant minds, these brilliant writers that are so supportive and they're indigenous, we don't have to explain a lot of stuff, right?

It was just lovely and have them workshopping for me so that I could go back and revise. So, yeah, the other people, the other people who have gone into the making this story, I'm so grateful for them, so grateful. It originally was just one perspective. It started as just Joe. then somebody was calling to you. You were being called to write from another perspective. Ruthie was asking for her story to be told.

I interviewed an artist, Carrie Lynn Victor, and she talked about how she has visions, and her best artwork is when she has a vision of it. And it reminded me of your comments about how somebody wanted their story told. And I find that just hard to comprehend as a non-writer, this idea that this is being called to you. Can you talk about that? I often say that these are fully formed human beings in my mind, right? I know what they look like. I know what they sound like.

I know their body language just because I spent so much time with them. But when I was writing from Joe's perspective and talking about Ruthie and talking about Ruthie or Norma, yeah. And she was just like, I don't want someone else telling my story. I want to tell my story. Like it was in my head, obviously I'm not crazy. But, you know, I don't hear voices. But yeah, she just, and I think I was doing a disservice to the story and to the character herself by having someone else completely tell her story.

And I think it would have been a very boring book. I don't think it would have gone anywhere if it had just been that one person telling the story. You wouldn't have gotten all the details of how our life really unfolded, right? You wouldn't have got, it's a first person narrative. So you get to feel how she feels and what she thinks. So, yeah, I think it wouldn't have been a very good story. if I hadn't listened to that voice saying, please let me tell my story too.

How do you develop this inspiration? From my understanding, your approach is to sit down and spend a day writing. You like to really get into the zone and start to connect. It can't be 15 minutes here, 10 minutes there, kind of chipping away at it. You really get into the zone and work on this. I'm just curious about your craft because it's really profound to think that you have these fully fledged humans in your mind and that you're able to kind of of bring them to life and share their ideas and their approach and their visions and that

this was a journey that you went on. It wasn't like you were like, this is the story. It's going to have like beginning, middle, and end. It's all already fully fledged. You're on this journey with them and that it's coming about with you. It's a process. And I'm just curious about that craftsmanship that you have. That was a long question. Yeah, I did have an outline for this book. Obviously, it changed because, like I said, it was from just the perspective of Joe. So that went out the window. So I tried to redraft another outline. And that was a nice basis. It provided some structure for me. And I'm a very structured person. I like structure. But again, it didn't turn out that way. It was like 22 chapters. And it wasn't, there was a whole

bunch of different things. There's some things that were left out. Some, like, it was very different and how it came about. Sorry, I was going to say something else, but I forgot. Oh, yes. I can't, I'm getting better at sitting down and writing for short periods of time. But when I want to really write, when I really want to get into it, I do. I sit down like eight o'clock in the morning with my cup of coffee and I write to like supper time or I write till eight o'clock at night and I just keep going and going. Of course, some of that gets thrown out in the end, probably like the first hour of writing is just getting into the groove and getting into the feeling of the character I'm writing

or the scene I'm writing. But I tend to, I do write in those little tiny time periods like a half hour, but that's editing. I use that for like editing or or going through and finding my crutch words. A crutch word is something you say a lot, which you need to get rid of. And mine is just J-U-S-T. It was like 175 uses of the word just. And I'm like, oh my goodness. So just doing those things, I can do those in short periods of time. So it's not the writing process itself. It's the revision that I can do. But when I really want to write, when I really want to get into it, I find I have to immerse myself fully. So that's what I do. I just go right into it for hours at a time.

That makes sense. It's always tough interviewing authors because I don't want to give too much of the book away where people aren't excited to buy it and read it. Can you give people a summary of the book for people who might be interested in grabbing this book? Sure. When people ask me to do this, I just read the book, the fly of the book. So this is the book. But the elevator pitch, so they say, is a four-year-old girl goes missing from the blueberry fields of Maine, sparking a tragic mystery that remains unsolved for nearly 50 years. So what happens in the book is that a family does, of migma, berry pickers, leave from the Apples Valley and go to Maine to pick berries for the summer like they do every year. And while they're there this particular summer of 1962, their youngest daughter, Ruthie, who's four years old, goes missing from the fields. The rest of the book is told in a dual narrative of her brother Joe, who is six when she disappears and the last person to see her and his life as he deals with the guilt and the trauma of this event. And then the other narrative is Norma, who's a girl raised in Maine. by her parents, who's always felt that something was a little off about her family and there was something missing. So I just leave it at that.

Can you tell us about writing a book that's really heavy at points, the challenges of going on that journey? There are a few pieces that, from my understanding, it was difficult for you to write, that it was actually emotional to write this story. Can you talk about that? Yeah, there's a lot of heavy emotions in this book. And I think the one I'll use for an example is there's a pregnancy loss in there. I've never experienced that myself. But I wanted to very much respect those who have. And I didn't want to re-traumatize anybody who might be reading it.

And I didn't want to do a disservice to their experience. So for days, I just read, I got on the internet and I read first person experiences of pregnancy loss and how it made them feel and what what it was like. And so I feel like I'm hoping. I'm hoping, I can't say I did, but I'm hoping I was truthful to their experience in that. But there are some places. There's one scene in there, which I'm not going to talk about, but I actually cried after I wrote it. It was like, oh, why did I do that? But it had to be that way.

It was the story. Incredible. Can you talk about one of your favorite lines from the book? If I'm not mistaken, it's one from Joe. Are you able to talk about that one? Yeah, it's actually the very first line of the book. And it's a funny story. I'll tell you a funny story is that the very first line of the book, not the pro, not the prolog, but the actual chapter one, which is Joe, gives the entire story away.

So basically, right? And it is the day Ruthie went missing, the black flies seem to be especially hungry. I think that's my favorite line because it kind of sets up the rest of the book. And I've had people say, you give it away the very first line, but it's still a good book. It's like, okay, thank you. I'm glad. But yeah, that's kind of my favorite line. just because it felt like once I had that down, I knew what I was doing. I knew where I was going. All of the thoughts that were scattered everywhere on paper and in my mind and on my phone and on my computer, they all came together and they solidified after I wrote that line because I knew where the story was going to go. I knew what was going to happen.

I knew what themes I wanted to address some more subtly than others, but I kind of just knew what was going to happen. What are some of the lessons you hope that readers are able to take away when they read the book? A, it is heavy, but also there's all a joy, right? A lot of the world focuses on indigenous issues is about things that are not overly pleasant, but we are happy people, we are humorous people. So I just want people to see that, yes, while there is trauma, while there is sadness, there's also joy, happiness, family, the importance of family is so important.

Also, a little brown girl goes missing and nobody does anything about it, basically. And we, in Canada and the U.S., we all know that that happens far too often. So I want people to understand the impact of when that happens. So, yeah, just subtle nods to that. I didn't want to be like, here's in your face talking about, theme, but I wanted people to kind of sit back and think about those things. Reception of the book. Michelle Good, Revees your book.

You're getting lots of great recommendations on it. Can you talk about what that means to you as an author? You put this out there. You don't know what the reception is going to be when you complete it. Obviously, you have like an inner circle who's helped support you in doing it, but you don't know what third parties who've never seen it who don't know who you are are going to feel when they read it. What has that been like for you?

it's kind of a pinch me situation because all these people that I used to fan girl, right? Like Katerina Vermet blurbed it and Michelle Good. Oh my God. Like she blurbed it. And Shreedemilin and Morgan Talti. It was just like unbelievable to me that these people read something I wrote, these people who I have admired and I've loved for some of them for years. And now they're talking about my book.

They're asking to read my book. They're telling people other people they should read it. It's just it's very, very, I don't know. I'm a woman from the valley, a middle-aged woman from the Apple's Valley. I don't imagine in my, I never imagine my life that Michelle Goode would be like, this is one of the best books I've ever read. Like, wow. It's just so crazy.

I think I'm still in that place where I don't quite believe because this has just always been a dream. So it literally is a dream come true to write a book that other indigenous people like, that other people enjoy anybody. Yeah. You've made it clear that there isn't going to be a sequel to this story, which is, which is perfectly makes sense, but you have so much content. You're kind of describing earlier. You have photos.

You have stories from your father. You have all of this inspiration that brought it about. I'm just wondering if you've thought about doing a podcast or a video series, kind of talking about this journey and sharing some of that inspiration with listeners, with viewers, with readers. Yeah, I've considered just because of the amount of folks coming to me and saying, hey, I have a story from the Berryfields, but it might be a nice idea to start collecting the true stories of those who work the field so those stories aren't lost. So that's in the back of my head.

I don't know about that. It depends on, because I'm working on a new novel now, so I don't know if I have time right now, but I would really love, if not me, someone, to collect the true stories of the Barryfield. I never thought about a podcast or videos because that would be really cool to go and video people telling their stories and just going up to Maine, maybe taking some of them back to Maine to see. But the thing will still do go to Maine, just not in the amount that they used to. So, yeah, I'm not sure where I'm going to go with it.

I just think that there's a lot of content there, and it seems like it's a good way to kind of keep readers connected with this story, keep them inspired and keep them engaged on the work that you're doing. And I think when we find out that there's little tidbits of information that you have that we as readers don't have access to, it makes us all the more curious to kind of find out the behind the scenes. Yeah, that's a really good idea. Now you got me thinking. You don't often talk about what's coming next in terms of books, in terms of what your plan is. And I think that that makes sense because it's a process and you don't want to feel rushed or have people with

an expectation that it's going to be released on a certain date. But I am curious about your work with Acadia University. What is it like now? You've got kind of your connection to the community of writers. and I'm just curious as to how that came about for you and what it means to be able to share some of your knowledge and experiences. Yeah, it's really exciting. At Canada University did what's called a cluster hire. So they wanted to hire indigenous and African Canadian faculty to help bring more broader perspective to the academy.

So I applied thinking the English department is never going to hire me, Amanda Peters. I just didn't think about it. So I applied and I went through the whole process and they asked me if I was to be hired where I would like to teach. I said in the Department of English and yeah, and they hire me. So now I have this support system. I don't feel guilty for seeing down in writing because that's literally my job now.

And like all last week I was editing my short story collection, which is going to be out next year sometime. And I was like, oh, I feel guilty. I'm not doing class notes. I'm like, oh, right, this is actually my job now. Like they're even, I've only been there a month and they're so supportive of the writing process and just say, no, you write. right, that's why we hired you to do your craft.

And I was like, oh my God, this is so exciting. And now to be able to take all that stuff I've learned, especially through the University of Toronto and the Institute for American Indian Arts, and help other people learn it. And I'm taking a little bit different. Like, it is in English literature, but I'm focusing on people of color predominantly, indigenous people of color writers and poets and playwright.

So I'm just very excited to get in the classroom and maybe expose these kids to things. that they hadn't thought of or hadn't seen before. So we're going to be reading like Billy Ray Belcourt and Lely Longsoldier and Gwendolyn Brooks and just all these brilliant people that maybe they're not Wordsworth, right? They're not the English poets. They're not Steinbeck, although I love Steinbeck, don't get me wrong. But we're just expanding our knowledge.

And I'm really, really excited to get in there. And hopefully they'll find something useful in it as well. How can people find you? How can they connect with you? I am on Instagram, although I'm not going to. got a lot of you on 46, so I'm at that age where I really hate Instagram because I don't know how to use it properly. And I have Facebook, I have a website. It's just a Amanda Peter's author.com. I post things there. Reviews when I'm in the news. I post all my events

where I'm going to be. So this fall, I'm at quite a few festivals. So I'm at the Cabot Trail Writers Festival, Lundberg Festival, Toronto International Festival of authors, Eden Mills, Calgary. just, yeah, Niagara Falls in December. So I'm everywhere. So I post those when I get them. But yeah, that's where they can find me. The Barry Pickers is available on Amazon, on various other channels. Is there anything else you want to leave the viewers with today?

No, just if you stumble upon my book, I really hope you enjoy it. I hope you find, I always, I'm a reader. I'm a voracious reader. So when I close a book, I want to have that feeling like, oh, that was a good story. So I really hope people when they read it, when they close it, they think, oh, that was a good story. Brilliant. I really appreciate you being willing to do this today. It's such a pleasure.

I really enjoyed reading, understanding this story in a deeper way and trying to prepare for this. I think you're such a thoughtful individual, and it was just such a privilege to spend this time with you. Oh, thank you. And it's been great. Thank you for having me. Are you a fiction or nonfiction person? I go between both. and I find that I don't have a ton of time to read, read.

So I've been an audible subscriber for over a decade, and I think I have 400 books that I've, my wife says, listened or read. Is she a person who considers it, like, you have to read the book to read the book? Yeah, yeah. Whereas I like, I like the story coming to life and being told,

especially when it's a great reader or even a cast of readers or a skilled narrator that has some intonation for different characters, especially with fiction. Does it need to be read by the author? I rarely like it when it's read by the author.

You don't like it read by the author? Not fiction, because there are some amazing voice actors that do fiction and do it super well. So I had a whole stint of John Grisham. and being someone with a law degree you may sneer at that but I really enjoy his books and he has some fantastic narrators right that makes more sense I guess yeah when it's when it's more academic or or nonfiction and the person is capable but sometimes it's just pure pain to listen to that author I was struck by by two things with Amanda it's amazing how recurring imposter

syndrome is. Everybody has it. No matter what level, no matter from the outside looking in, you see someone incredibly successful, there's always self-doubt. And then the other thing that struck me was, wow, eight to ten hours, just solitary concentration without interruption on something, it sounds like a dream. A dream? A dream to be able to like just turn everything off and have your world and that's just all you you do and and and and then also the ability to actually like nudge through that type of work would you say you're more like that or you the 10 15 minutes kind of person in my world it's all just all over the place so I've I don't think I can really have hours and hours of just con there are times when when I'm

working on something and get in the creative zone and it's just away you go. but just the nature of my beasts that I've created, that it is bursts of time. Yes, you seem like you're very good at jumping from project to project idea to and keeping everything fresh in your mind. How about you? What do you prefer? It's weird because I wouldn't say that there's any one process, like the interviews, like I'm in it when we're in it, and then the editing process is just doing 10 different things in order to deliver it.

So I'd say I'm much more the 20 minutes on this, 30 minutes on that. 40 minutes on that, not one. Like, writing a book is nothing I have any experience doing, focusing on one thing solely and really honing in on that. It's not something I do often. But I would say when we were doing three-hour interviews, and then I do two in one day, that's six hours of conversation. That would take quite a bit of, like, mental fortitude to keep sharp. Yeah, and that singular focus, I do enjoy that. Like, if I'm recording something, it's that's all that's all you're thinking about and it's you're very present video editing you mentioned that that's something where you can just look up and oh wow that I've been doing

this for four hours where did that go yeah I always have to have corner gas on in the background doing that something that's not too engaging but something where I can laugh while I'm doing it got it for everyone listening make sure that you go tune in on other platforms check out Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, we TikTok it up there. Make sure that you like, subscribe, review all of the things. Did you just say we TikTok it up there? Is that a thing? Is that like an expression or did you just coin that? Just coined it just now. Nice. That's how I roll.