Nuanced. - 125. Roy Henry Vickers: First Nations Artist on Overcoming Trauma & Indigenous Wisdom

Episode Date: September 5, 2023

Join us for our 125th episode, as we dive into the richness of Indigenous wisdom, as revealed by our cherished guest, the acclaimed artist, Roy Henry Vickers. From his birthplace, the ancient village of Kitkatla, Roy Henry Vickers guides us through a narrative brimming with ancestral Indigenous wisdom. Aaron Pete's conversation with him explores not only timeless teachings but also his personal experiences. Aaron Pete and Roy Henry Vickers delve into his unique perspective as a colorblind artist, his battle with trauma, the struggles in sharing his art, and his path to recovery.Roy Henry Vickers is a renowned Canadian artist, born in June 1946, who has created a significant impact through his blend of traditional First Nations imagery and contemporary techniques. His art reflects his Tsimshian, Haida, and Heiltsuk descent and a profound connection to the land. In addition to his artistic achievements, Vickers is a public speaker on creativity, healing, and spiritual growth, and he has received honors such as the Order of British Columbia and the Order of Canada for his contributions to art and Indigenous rights.Send us a textThe "What's Going On?" PodcastThink casual, relatable discussions like you'd overhear in a barbershop....Listen on: Apple Podcasts   SpotifySupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

This episode is sponsored by the Real Estate Foundation of BC. REFBC is a philanthropic organization that supports sustainable, equitable, and socially just relationships with land and water. Learn more about the foundation's grants and initiatives at REFBC.com. We're back with another episode of the Bigger Than Me podcast. Here is your host, Aaron Pete. Elders are individuals we can learn from an indigenous culture, and I've had the privilege of speaking with a few indigenous. individuals who speak with a genuine sense of peace in their hearts. I have the privilege of speaking with an individual today who has deep understandings of the lessons of indigenous culture,

lessons on finding peace, and lessons on sharing your gift with the world. My guest today is a renowned artist, Roy Henry Vickers. Mr. Vickers, what a privilege it is to be with you today. I'm wondering if you could introduce yourself for people who might not be acquainted. I certainly can, yes. In the traditions of our ancestors, my name is Roy Henry Vickers. I was born in the Nishka country in a little village called Lakhadzap. But my heritage is Simshan, Haida, Hiltsuk, and European. And I'm coming to you from the land of the Gikshen. Xien is the ancient name for the Stena River and the Gikshian are all of the people who live. live on the Skeena River, as I do today. Beautiful. I'm wondering if we could start with Kip Ketla, one of the longest continuously inhabited villages, 5,000 years, if I'm not mistaken. Could you share a little bit about

that community in that village? Yes. Early in my studies, I came across a man by the name of Wilson Duff, who was in charge of the BC Provincial Museum. And he asked me one day, I was from. And when I told him, he said, well, do you know how old your village is? And of course, I had no idea. But he was an anthropologist and knew people who did the digs in Kit Katla. And they discovered that Kit Katla has been continuously inhabited for over 5,000 years. And when he told me that I, I knew, or realized why I had this feeling when I walk in the village, I can feel the ancientness of it and my connection to it. I think about that.

I'm indigenous from the Chihuahawathal First Nation community. We're stolo, and it's something I've been trying to think about and internalize more and more that we have records of my ancestors being here for 10,000 years, that we've been. had a relationship with this land for such a long period of time that at one point in time you have to think you would have walked in the same spot as one of your ancestors, that you would have taken the same step or that you would have had the same bad day in the same area. Ten thousand years is a very long time. So you have a deep connection.

And then I thought about how some people don't have that privilege. They don't have that deep connection and we don't have to judge them or be mad at them. it is unfortunate that you don't have a deep connection to the land in the same way that others might. And I just, I think that that's such a deep concept that you not only have a connection in terms of stories, but also of the land you walk on, on the territory you step on. Yes, yeah. The other thing that hits me as you speak of this is that our ancestors are in our blood. They're in our DNA.

They're physically part of us. All of our ancestors that walk the earth. Earth. And they are the Earth today. So we are the Earth. We're not separate from the Earth. We are connected to our Mother Earth in a very intimate, ancient way. And so are all of our relatives all over the world. And that's what I think of when I think of other people who don't walk on the land of their ancestors. They are my brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers and grandparents and they walk on the land of my ancestors, and we're related. So they walk on the land of theirs, and I find that I can give them some comfort that way.

But I feel that special, powerful bond to the land and to my ancestors, yes. You have a really profound story that I think is really important that people hear and know about, and it's about your mother, being adopted into the House of Eagle. and how that's a reflection of true inclusivity. Would you be open to sharing that story? Oh, my goodness, yes. Growing up, I didn't realize my mother was white from Europe. She was my mother.

And I didn't know my dad was Indian from Kit Kassah. He was my dad. and I never saw a difference between them and neither did anyone in my village and it was so powerful that when mom began teaching school there they didn't ask her to run for chief counselor the chiefs and elders went to her and said grace

we need you to be our chief counselor you are the one with the knowledge to help us in this village. And so she was appointed the chief of the council in the village. And I didn't realize what that meant or how powerful that was. But Kitatla was the first village in the entire country of Canada to appoint someone whose ancestors were not from the village to chief of a council. So that was very special, and I have had that spirit of inclusivity with all people as I've grown up and walked on the land of my ancestors. And she was accepted and brought into the House of Eagle despite this history of Indian residential schools with the knowledge that that had happened and that these atrocities had taken place, but that this individual was good. good, that we can, in fact, separate the wheat from the chaff, the problems with the good people

and have an understanding that there are well-intentioned people, that there is a difference between the two. And they did this to be generous, to support her in her success, if I'm not mistaken. That's absolutely correct, yes. It was a powerful move, and it shows the ancient way our people have of knowing that people belong in the village when they live there. They're there. They belong there. Why? Well, because they're there. And they always watch. The leaders are always watching people. And they see the leadership qualities in people. And when they do, and they adopt people into their family, it's done for,

reason and that is to make the family and the community stronger. And so that's what they did with Grace Isabella Vickers, whose ancestors I thought were English, but they're mostly Irish on the British Isle side, but also from the Iberian Peninsula, from Spain, from Germany, and from Northern Asia. So she has connections all over Europe, and so do I. One day I like to go there and see those places where I'm connected to.

There's a lot of wisdom that it sounds like both your parents shared with you. The one that stands out to me from your mother was to whom much is given, much is required. You are responsible for your knowledge. Yes. That was something that she always said to me. And as I grew up, I'm the eldest of six children,

so I always had this responsibility for my younger siblings. And sometimes I resented it. And I had this way of getting away from the commotion around me by picking up a pencil and paper and drawing. And as I did that and enjoyed creating images, What I realized was people were helping me, and people were encouraging me, especially my mother. And as I grew and achieved different goals and kudos, she would always say, oh, that's wonderful, son. But to whom much is given, much is required.

And you are responsible for the knowledge you carry. And I see that as a teacher. And when we look to the four directions, the first direction is where the sun rises, the east. It's the direction of the teacher. And so my life has been the life of a teacher, a healer, a visionary, and a leader. May I ask you to describe those four directions? You did such an eloquent job when you were at the Dalai Lama Center. I'm wondering if you could share that once again.

Yes, it's a centering exercise that I always use, and it's found around the world in indigenous cultures. We look to the east, the way of the teacher. Think of the face of the child, and we hear the bell, the instrument of the teacher. When I think of the teachers that I have and the teacher that I am, I ask that my eyes in my ears and my heart be open to the knowledge that is available to me right now, this day, as I walk through this world. As a teacher, I look to the south, the way of the healer. I think of the earth as the element. Fire is the element of the teacher.

Yellow is the color. Earth is the element of the healer. Our mother earth, the color is red. I think of ochre, one of the pigments that's used by our people. And I think of the teacher helping me to see those areas of my life that need healing. We all go through trauma in our lives, and sometimes parts of us run away. And recovery is recovering those parts of myself and bringing them back to me, to make me whole, and to be the healer I'm meant to be.

As a teacher and a healer, I look to the west where the sun goes down. And as I sit here with my eyes closed, I realize I can see in the darkness. I have vision. We all have this vision. I'm a visionary. And I ask that this vision be made clear by my healing and my education. As a teacher and a healer and a visionary, I look to the north, the way of the warrior, the way of the leader. And I lean heavily on the warrior mode, and that's not an angry warrior, but a warrior looking to fight for justice or truth.

And I ask that my heart and my mind be centered in the strength and the truth and the beauty of who, I am, all of my ancestors helping me, teacher, healer, visionary, and leader. We all are. And so I am. And so that's why I'm here speaking with you, Aaron, and I feel it a privilege. The feeling is mutual. I couldn't believe how profound that was during your speech. I'd also like to talk about your father. because I think one of the lessons, again, if I'm not mistaken, was this ability to look twice at something, to double check, to review. You have stories of thinking you heard gunshots, but recognizing that it was actually killer whales jumping into the water. And I just, I think that that's beautiful because we're in a time right now where it seems like everything moves so quickly. We're so quick to judge, we're so quick to assume, we're so quick to decide that this is what's true.

And this is at a great lesson on pausing and taking time and thinking things through, but also the humor of kind of jumping too quickly to conclusions. Yes. Yeah, that was actually my father's father, Henry Vickler, who I'm named after. I'm named after my father's oldest brother, Roy, who had an incredible positive attitude, and he was crippled. He was half of his body didn't work, but he could roll. a boat. He could fix things. He could do things. And he was always with my grandfather when we're out on the boat together. But this one day that I recall so clearly, we're in a rowboat and we're towing logs down the inlet towards the village. And I could hear church bells off in the

distance. And I kind of smiled. And my grandpa said, what is it? What are you smiling about? And I said, oh, well, I don't have to be in that church today. And then I looked at him and I thought, oh, he never goes to church. I've never seen him in that church. So I said to him, yeah, Grandpa, you don't go to church. And he did this to me. Looked up at the sky, the trees and the mountains and the ocean. And he looked at me and he said, this is my church.

What do you see out here? And I looked up. I said, oh, I see the sky and the trees and the hills and the ocean. And he did the same thing. He looked away like that wasn't good enough. So I thought, hmm, wonder what happened? He said, well, look again. So I looked again and looked up at the.

sky. And I'm thinking, what am I missing? What don't I see? Oh, there's clouds when they're moving on a west wind. So no, west wind's blowing. Clouds are moving from the west to the east. And there's still good wood. There's some logs on the beach over there. We could come and get another time. And the tide's running out. Oh, that's why we're going down the inlet right now, because the tide's running

out and it's easier because we had a row boat and you had to work hard rowing the boat. And the tide helped us move towards the village. And he looked at me and he said, now you see. See? You look

again and you see better spectacles. That's what These are spectators. That's what we are. So when you're looking, you're respecting life, the world, people. Now, if you look at me and you see something and you look again, you'll see something else if you look carefully. So we can apply this to not only to the land we live in,

but to people and situations that we're in. It's a beautiful teaching of respect. I definitely agree, and these are all lessons I think that we yearn for right now. The other one that I'm thinking of is with your grandma. She wasn't your biological grandmother, but this idea of silence, this idea of being able to communicate without needing to use words, without trying to argue a point. I've heard it said that oftentimes when we speak, we're almost avoiding the truth. We're not always honest.

The only way you can lie to someone is with your words. You can't lie if you're silent. And so I think that there's something we're missing with social media, with websites, with news, with constant consumption of information that we're forgetting how to be silent, how to have a connection with someone without our words. Would you mind sharing that teaching? Yes, yeah. I was six or seven years old. And in the summertime, when I was that young, all of the people left the village and the old ones were left behind. And everyone went either to the fishing boats or to the canaries to work in the summer.

And my mother was not only the chief counselor, she was in charge of the medicine in the village. so we had a dispensary in our house. So she looked after the old people. So my mom always stayed in the village in the summer and looked after the old people. And it was a lonely time for me because all the kids were gone. And today when the west wind blows

and I'm somewhere by myself, I still had that little pang of loneliness that comes through and I always smile because when I felt like that I used to walk up to this old lady's house who lived close to us and when I'd get to the house the front door was always open

and there were only a few windows in the house who was an old style house and I'd walk to the door and look in and try and see in the darkness and then I'd hear this voice seeing, come in so I'd step inside and my eyes would adjust to the light in the room and I'd see her sitting over by the stove

and she was working with cedar bark and she was using warm water in the stove to soften the cedar bark so the fire was on and the door was open to keep it cool in there because it was summertime she didn't need the heat and as I'm looking at all this and absorbing it all, respecting the situation, she says,

Dan, sit. And I look over and there's only one chair and it's right beside her by the stove. And I'm kind of a shy guy. That's my basic nature. And so I'd walk shyly over there and sit down close to her and felt the closeness.

And she didn't speak any English. And I didn't know her ancient language very well. I knew the basic instructions like come in, sit down. Thank you, goodbye. I sat there, and she's working away with her hands. And she's kind of then quiet. and she was able to touch me, to emote. And I know now that when we were born,

our emotional intelligence was all we had. As babies, we couldn't speak, we couldn't understand languages. and so here I am sitting with this woman and I can feel the love and the warmth not only from the fire but from her and she could feel that I liked it and I would just watch and be quiet and feel company, love, comfort.

And after a while, I'd stand up and she'd just say to me, to Melga's needs and I'll see you again. And I'd leave. And years and years later, when my English teacher in high school and Oak Bay would stamp her foot beside my desk and tell me to speak, I wouldn't speak, I just put my head down and I wouldn't speak. and she got really angry one day, and she said, Roy, you must emote. You must emote.

And I didn't know what she was talking about. And years and years and years later, I realized that, oh, I do emote. She just can't feel me. And these kids in this classroom can't feel me. Because I speak differently. I speak with my looks and my, my smile and how I'm holding myself.

And I learned those things from the old people who couldn't speak, but they could emote and they could love me. So they were good teachers. And what they taught me, I learned. They were gone by the time I learned, but I have learned. It seems like so often people have something to say, but we don't have this space to hear them. to understand them and being able to follow your work you're very good at being a student

at listening at absorbing lessons at not overlooking those moments to other people they rush through that and they go oh we're not talking i'm out like i'm going to go do my thing they miss such a beauty in the small moments and it seems like you've not only been able to take those lessons but to share them with others and to remind people that it isn't always in the glitz and the glamour that something is learned. It's not always by slamming your hand on a desk, that that's when people receive good lessons. Can you talk about what it takes to be a good student, to learn from others and to be really open your heart to learning from others? That's exactly what it is. Our heart should always be open.

we if we always look at the positive and always look at the bright side of things and we are open to the lessons that we have to learn that's what a teacher must do you know my prayer is that my eyes and my ears and my heart be open to the lessons and i do that every day and every day i learn something beautiful and every day i see something i never saw before and it strikes a chord in my heart and I hear words of people who've been gone for a long time and there are words that they used to teach me what I just learned but I did learn it I heard it and it went inside me and so the knowledge that we carry enables us to learn more the pain that we carry enables us to feel more pain. And why is that? Well, knowledge is to learn how to be a good person and to lead others to not to darkness, but to light.

And what is light? It's in your eyes. It's in your smile. So that's our responsibility is all. is to be open to the beauty that is around us and the beauty that is us and the beauty that we carry that was our ancestors as they walked in this world. You come from a community, if I'm not mistaken, that was a dry community, meaning there was no alcohol. You came from a community with no social assistance or unemployment.

Everybody had a role to play. Then you head into the city and people have all of these stereotypes and assumptions about indigenous people, that they all struggle with alcohol use, that they're lazy. You had such a unique, you're laughing now, I love this because you thought this was crazy. You thought that they had no idea what the world was because you grew up in this community that didn't reflect any of their assumptions. Would you mind talking about seeing that discrimination? Yes, it was, I was 17 years old.

I was in Victoria. I was going to Oak Bay High School, which is a very waspy school, and I was the only dark face in the whole school. But I didn't know that. And one of my best friends, and I realize now why Bill was such a good friend of mine, both of his parents were artists. One was worked with charcoal, and the other worked with watercolors. And when I would go and visit their place, I always felt at home.

And I loved watching his mom and dad. And he knew that. So I just became part of his life. Well, one day Bill and I were walking down Douglas Street and a friend of his stopped at the far, at the stoplight on the other side and was coming towards us when the light changed. We came together. Well, I grew up with people who always nodded and said hi and smiled.

And this guy looked the other way as we walked by and kept on walking. And as we got to the sidewalk on the other side, I said to Bill, what the heck's the matter with him? And Bill just turned red. And he said, I don't know. I said, yes, you do, Bill. I'll come you're embarrassed. You're a redskin just like me.

And he smiled and said, well, actually that's what it's about. He doesn't like Indians. And boom, it was like somebody just slapped me in the face. I didn't understand what that meant. And I grew up in this place. were people weren't like that. They just did not discriminate because of the color of your skin, or if you couldn't speak their language.

And I said to Bill, because I didn't understand, and he was a friend of Bill's, and I thought, well, he would be a friend of mine, but he wasn't. I said, do me a favor. Could you ask him why he doesn't like Indians? Yeah, okay. So time went by, and one day we're out at his place. I was there for the weekend, and he said, oh, yeah, you know, so-and-so that doesn't like Indians. I asked him, and he said, well, they're all drunks. And I laughed. They laughed. And he looked at me kind of shocked and said, well, why do you laugh? It's really not funny. I said, oh, well, I'm laughing because it's really funny.

I grew up in the village, and when you get off a boat and you go up the dock, there's a big sign. Liquor is not allowed on this village in this village. It's against the bylaws of the council. So I never knew what a drunk was until I was a teenager, and we moved away from the village to a place called Hazleton. He said, no, what else? And he said, oh, he thinks that all the Indians are lazy and they live on welfare. And I laughed again. Bill was just wondering why is it so funny.

It's a Bill. I grew up in a village that's really, really, really old, 5,000 years old. Before there was any money or cars or. any people from Europe coming here. People lived successfully there. They were rich, wealthy in knowledge and food. So they never needed money. And nobody could be lazy. You had to work to eat. You had to hunt. You had to fish. You had to roll. boats around to get firewood and in the old days people had to make boats out of big cedar trees carve them out of wood and carved paddles they nobody could afford to be lazy

so i i just think it's really funny that someone who lives in this big city and goes to this big school here doesn't know anything about me and our people and where how we live and how we've live for thousands of years. On the same note, it feels like, at least in Canada right now, we're focused on our differences. It feels like we're very focused on how indigenous people are and how other cultures are, that there is this distinct difference. And you do an eloquent job of explaining the difference between discrimination and racism

from your perspective. Would you mind sharing your perspective? Oh, I love to. Yes. Yeah, respect. Take another look. Listen to what scientists say. We are one race of human beings. And the ancient people have always said that. We are all related. We are all one. We are together. And when you live with me and in my village, you're part of me. Where you came from doesn't matter. What color your skin and it doesn't matter. And I don't know how many years ago it was discovered by scientists that in our DNA, if we all trace our DNA through our mother, we will come to one gene, all of us, red, yellow, black, or white, no matter what our nationality is, one race from one gene called the mitochondrial gene,

or the Eve gene. So for me, that knowledge is so valuable. And I'm responsible because I know to tell others, stop using the word racism. It's a fallacy. It's a lie. It's an untruth. You were taught that from the time you were,

a child in school. We all were. And it's time for us to put aside the untruths and speak the truth. The truth is, we are all one. So you can discriminate against me for the color of my skin and what you think about who I am and where I come from and because I speak a different language. But the more you know me and the more I know of you, the more we will realize how like we are, how alike we are. And the familiarity, familial, that's where the word family comes from. The familiarity of one to the other brings us closer together. So stop looking at our differences and appreciate our likenesses, our familiarities. And we will have more peace in this world and more love shared from one to another.

Yeah. It seems like the 20th century really demonstrates this clearly, that when we search for differences, we miss out on how we're alike, on how we can work together, on the different strengths that we can bring to the table. And if anything, we should avoid repeating those mistakes, even in the name of good. I see it a lot where we're saying, well, we need to highlight indigenous people. even more to fix the atrocities of the past. But when we go down this path of picking and cherry-picking people,

just based on their race or on some characteristics of a person, we miss out on raising everybody up together and recognizing what we all bring to the table, the strengths and the skill sets that everyone has, that they can contribute if we give them the opportunity. Yeah, we speak of Indians or first, nations or indigenous, doesn't matter what word you use, because we're all the same. However, it's important for we as a nation to understand the atrocities and the genocide that indigenous people have lived with.

since Canada became a nation. And it's time for us as Canadians to accept it and to see and to have empathy and to begin a healing process in ourselves. Like for me as a white man and for me as an indigenous man, I accept both sides. And that's the way we must be to see a change in our, I'd like to see a reservation. is gone because we are separated and it's helped us maintain our culture, but now we can continue to maintain our culture in our ancient ways because we live on the land of our ancestors.

So we don't need an Indian act that was set up by the government to separate us. We need a human act of love and kindness to accept each other. That's beautiful. You planned to become a police officer. That was one of your plans and that might be a surprise to listeners because you're well known for your incredible talent as an artist. But this was a road of adversity for you. This was a challenge, something that you expected to be that you weren't able to and a challenge.

And I think so many people have these challenges but they feel like it's just them. other people had the easy path and this is something that weighed on you heavily and despite this you've managed to flourish i'm wondering if you can share overcoming that that hurdle yeah when i was a child in the village i remember my uncle roy i was standing with him one day and we heard this powerboat coming and he just kind of stiffened up a little bit and he said cops And I could feel the fear in him. And so I'm afraid of whoever the cops are. I don't know what cops are.

Well, it was the RCMP, both the ML15, the motor launch number 15, Royal Canadian Mounted Police. And it was coming to our village. And I saw my first movie because they brought a projector and a generator into the village and the generator ran the projector. Well, what they were teaching us was how we could go and become Royal Canadian Mounted Police, peacekeepers. And as I grew up, I always had this affinity with peacekeepers. I mean, that's what a leader is, a peacekeeper.

So, teacher, healer, visionary, leader. so the leader I am should have peace to give to others. So when I got into high school and went through discrimination and all of that, I wanted to join the Royal Canadian Mounted Police because I also, when we moved from the village of Kit Katlett to Hazleton, I fell in love with horses and I learned to ride well. And I had this dream of being a royal convention. Canadian mounted police and ride in the musical ride all over the world and get paid to do.

So I thought, not only am I going to be a peacekeeper, but I'm going to be able to ride horses and I'll be a good rider because I love horses and horses love me. Well, out of high school, my art teacher realized what I wanted to do and he said, so you're going to apply to the RCMPI. I said, oh, I've already applied. I'm going for my medical. Well, tell me how it goes. And so I went for my medical and I thought, I'm going to ace this. I'm in good shape. It's just I'm young. This is great. So I went through my whole medical and I was doing really well and I went in. They checked my eyes. They were really good. And then they did this test with round circles with little colored dots in them and you have to

pick out the numbers that are different colored dots in the round circle of dots, I couldn't see numbers. I couldn't see any numbers. And the doctor, eye doctor, said, you are colorblind. And I am? Well, how can you tell I am? Well, you can't see the numbers. Let's do a test and you had different colors of lenses, and he put them in front of my eyes. And there were, it's kind of funny, but they were a rose-colored, rows-tinted lenses. And when I look through these rose-tinted lenses, I can see the number. I said, oh, 16, I can see it. And he said, oh, good, good. I want you to tell me something. I've never been able to do this with anyone. I'm going to take the lens away and I want you to tell me what happens and took the lens away and the the 16 disappeared

took about two seconds for it to disappear and I said well it just slowly went away and now I can't see it I know it's there but I cannot see it and he said ah that's good your memory was hanging on to what you saw and your eyes couldn't see it anymore so finally Finally, your brain said, well, it's not there. And so I cried all the way home. I walked back to our house in Oak Bay from downtown Victoria because I didn't want to ride on a bus with tears on and down my face. And I went to my art teacher and I said,

Mr. West, I'm colorblind. Oh, for goodness sake. No wonder. No wonder. And I looked at him and I said, what? And he said, well, the bold colors you always use. Those are the colors you see. I wondered why you use such strong colors. Well, you don't see all the colors that I can see. So you just paint what you can see. I'm like, yeah, but I didn't realize that that's what I was doing. He said, well, we are all unique. Every human being is unique. Know who you are and express yourself from that place that only you can. So what are you going to do now? Well, I'm going to be an artist.

He laughed and he said, well, you'll be a good one. You're already a good artist. Study, study, study, study, learn whatever you want to learn. don't go to university and study art. Please don't do that. And I kind of looked at him surprised. I said, why would you say that? That's what you did.

And he said, yes, and look at me. I'm not an artist. I'm an art teacher. He said, well, you're a good art teacher, and I'm glad you are. And he said, well, if you come from this place of uniqueness and you express yourself from this place, then you will do something nobody else can do. And I thought right away,

I am going to study the art of my ancestors and I'll have to go to museums to find it because it's not in art galleries, it's not in books. There wasn't a book. Nobody knew what a Simchan was. I had to study from beautiful people in the BC Provincial Museum, which is now the Royal Beery Museum.

And it was there that I met Wilson Duff, who taught me so much about the village that I come from. And that's how my knowledge of who I am and where I come from is so unique, just like my art teacher said. And I've always come from that place. And I promised myself when I first realized I'm going to support myself with my artwork, that I would only work when I felt that inspiration that gives me goosebumps in the hair and the back of my neck and my heart beats and I just have to do

this. And that's the way I've been as an artist my whole life. Every piece that I've worked on was precious and it was a story about something that happened and I still do it. And I'm still learning and I will learn until I'm done with this life. You were the one who taught me that inspiration actually means breath of God coming to you. And I think that that's so beautiful. We're in a time right now where depression rates are incredibly high. Everybody seems to be struggling with some form of anxiety. It seems like we're not at peace.

You know what this is like. And you share your story of addiction and recovery. and growing from the experience. I'm wondering if you'd be open to sharing any information about that. Yeah, so a number of things. I've grown up with people who suffered massive trauma and never spoke to me about it. However, I carried it because they carried it.

My father passed it on to me. His mother passed it on to him. My uncles and aunts all passed it on to me. and we all walk around with this incredible pain. And what happens when this trauma is not resolved is we get lost and we're lonely and we're afraid and we're angry and we don't know what we're angry about.

And we've grown up with anger from people who never told us. I asked all of my uncles and aunts and my grandmother what happened in residential school, not one of them ever told me. So I grew up with this, on one hand, this incredible growth is an artist, and on this other hand, this incredible pain as a person. And I remember creating this image of Christ and half black and half red. and I took it to this Christian bookstore and I thought they would love it

and they didn't like it at all and they didn't like it because it was pagan because an Indian artist created this and how can you do this? And I was devastated and so these things happened continuously as I grew and as my

reputation and my art and my profession grew to the point where I opened my own gallery into Finole. And I opened it on April Fool's Day in 1986 in the morning. And it's still there and it's still going in millions. And we figured that over 15 million people have been through that gallery. In 1987, my painting was given to Queen Elizabeth. when she visited Vancouver for the Commonwealth Summit and all the Commonwealth countries of the world were there

and all of the Commonwealth leaders received a print of an image called a meeting of chiefs. And it was about Hazleton where I live today and how there was this big village and people from all over would come to potlatches there. So I looked at this Commonwealth Summit as a potlatch and I created this meeting of chiefs. And the painting was given to Queen Elizabeth, and my whole world changed.

And the success was wonderful because I could do things I never could do before with money. But I was still lost. I was still in pain. I still had this deep well of not knowing. And I drank. I drank a lot and did all sorts of. different things that I don't do anymore and came close to suicide a couple of times. And it was Valentine's Day, 1992, when I was thinking seriously of ending my life, I planned on how to do it.

And in the middle of that, that evening sitting in a room by myself, in the darkness, this voice in my head said, you can't do this. You cannot do this. Life is given to you. Life is a gift. You have no right to end it. And I won't repeat what I said, but I screamed out loud if I knew of an effie way to get out of this, I would have taken it. And I was reminded that my sister, Patricia June Vickers, who is a psychologist, sent me a form and said, you know, we're all addicts, and there's a way out, those exact words. And so before the hour was passed,

I called a 1-800 number in a place called the Meadows in Arizona. And nine days later, I drove there. And I went through a process of recovery, learning what pain was, learning what addiction is. And it isn't just drugs and alcohol. Actually, they're just the tip of an iceberg. Addiction goes deep, deep, deep, deep. on what's underwater, we pay no attention to, and for most of us it's always drugs and alcohol, was not. It's power, it's money, it's sex, it's control, all sorts of things we become

addicted to to try and lift ourselves out of the lostness and the trauma. And all we have to do is find ourselves and recover those parts of us that ran away and bring them back. And for me, it's bringing a little Roy up and saying, it's okay, it's okay, and being a father to myself. And today, I live with this huge gratitude, and I speak of this with a lump in my throat and it isn't a pain, it's an appreciation and a respect for the life that's given me and the lessons that have been given me to be the person I am, to be able to share with you from this place in our hearts of who we are and how we can be in this world and be happy. You share such insights, and I feel incredibly brave and courageous for sharing this,

and I think it's important to people hear how you moved through this and how you grew as a consequence. I want to talk about some of the art. Over 26 totem poles, if I'm not mistaken, that you've made so many different artistic ideas. You've contributed so much to the medium. Would you mind talking a bit about that? Yes. as I grew in strength as an artist and knowledge as an artist,

I've been blessed by being received by my people. I was adopted into the house of Waukes and Rivers Inlet and given the chieftainship, Black Gila. So I carry this chieftainship as a leader in community, not only in that village, but wherever I walk in this world. I represent a lineage of chiefs that goes back thousands of years. And that knowledge has enabled me to be two different kinds of artists. The last totem that I created wasn't to be sold to anyone.

It was put up in the village of Owekino and Rivers Inlet, and it was to replace a totem that was taken from our feet. family in that village. And it stands there today as a token of regeneration, of repatriation, of revitalization, of coming back to ourselves and to creating images that are part of our ancientness and so part of my art is done not for sale but for community and then this other part of my art that and i always think of mr west when i think of this um i created my first exhibition was in victoria in the old old emily car building and she was one of my heroes and uh i think

Mr. West was there, and he was looking at this piece of a canoe in the rain, and people were in the distance digging clams on the beach. And that's what it was called, digging clams. And he stood there looking at it, and he said, whatever possessed you to, there's a stroke of genius. You have this huge canoe right in the front of the scene, like it takes up half the scene. whatever possessed you to do that it's brilliant

and I smiled and kind of humbly said well that's what I saw that's what you saw what do you mean well I was just a little boy and my people

were digging clams and it was raining mostly in the wintertime it rains Tsum Xien means in the rain and my responsibility was to look after the boat because you dig clams when the tides weigh out while the tide comes in and it covers the ground and they dig up until you can't find clams anymore

and my responsibility was to stay with a boat and keep pulling it in and keep pulling it in so the boat was always right in front of me and that's what I saw when I was looking at the people digging clams and it says there again you see uniqueness. You create from that place of uniqueness and I'm looking at it as your art teacher and I think

it's a stroke of genius. So it's like those lessons that we give as teachers we have no idea how they can bring other people's lives into another plane of existence and awareness of the world around them. And so I was never afraid to use color the way I see it. And at first, when I first tried to paint a more contemporary scene, but it is the lines and the shapes are controlled by my ancient culture of Kikatla

and the way we look at the world. So when you look at a tree, children love my paintings because when they look at the trees, they can see birds and the birds are sometimes positive shapes of the branches, and sometimes they're the negative shape

of the sky coming through, and the shape is a bird or a whale. And that's, I'm this little kid painting still. And it's like this place of wonder that I always create from. And I'm thankful to be there because it's such a wonderful gift. And when you come from that place of inspiration, you are creating something that is divine. You are creating something that's bigger than you and all of your teachers and all of your ancestors

because it's bigger than all of us. It comes from this place of infinity. And so I love inspiration. And when we speak, when you speak, when I hear you and you hear me, we hear words that come from inspiration. So it works in many different ways. Roy, it has been such a privilege to share this time with you. You are so insightful.

I think you bring so many lessons that are so needed at this time. Thank you so much for doing this. I highly recommend people go visit the Roy Henry Vickers Art Gallery in Tafino. It's incredible. I recommend they check out your website. Is there anywhere else people should find you? Well, that's about the best place to find me. I'm also on Facebook and Instagram.

You see me just say hello somewhere. I lift up my hands to you and what you do here and how you reach people. Thank you, Eric. Thank you.