Nuanced. - 148. Chief Willie Sellers: Indian Residential Schools, Indigenous Leadership & Reconciliation

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

Chief Willie Sellers of Williams Lake First Nation discusses Indian Residential Schools, the harmony of cultural preservation with community advancement and reflects on his reconciliation efforts, in an enlightening interview with Aaron Pete.Willie Sellars, from Williams Lake, BC and a member of the Williams Lake First Nation (WLFN) of the Secwepemc Nation, became one of the youngest elected Councillors in WLFN history at 24 and, after a decade on Council, was elected Chief in 2018. Previously a Wildland Firefighter and later the Special Project Coordinator in the WLFN Economic Development Department, Willie managed new business initiatives and community consultations. He is also an award-nominated author of "Dipnetting with Dad" and the upcoming "Hockey with Dad."Send us a textThe "What's Going On?" PodcastThink casual, relatable discussions like you'd overhear in a barbershop....Listen on: Apple Podcasts   SpotifySupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Welcome back to another episode of The Bigger Than Me podcast. Here is your host, Aaron P. As a council member for my community Chihuahawafel First Nation, I'm always looking at other leaders to see who are setting a great example and who I can look up to and follow in their footsteps. Today I'm speaking with an author, dancer, and the chief of Williams Lake First Nation. My guest today is Chief Willie Sellers. Willie, I have been looking forward to this.

I've been watching you on LinkedIn and you are doing so many great things. Would you mind just briefly reminding people who you are in the work you do? Wake up, cookbeat, Willie Sellers, and Squex, de Geckle, S. Sequemulu. Hello, my name is Chief Willie Sellers. And I represent the Williams Lake First Nation. And I am a part of Sequitmulu. Very honored to be back.

You know, I've had some good things happening. But, you've been killing it too, man. I follow along at this rising start. I mean, the studio keeps looking more professional. There's like a sound guy, you know, to check us out here before we started. I appreciate it. Are we able to start with your reconciliation award that you received a few months ago? What was it like to receive that? You're always working behind the scenes and it was, it was such a nice moment to see you receive that. What was it like? Yeah. Oh, man. It was, uh, you know, you have.

receive an award like that you think like do i deserve this award and i feel like i'm fairly young that there's more people that are deserving of that award and you know i i contemplate these things and i even debrief them with our team about how i get honored when when it's really an all of us thing here at w all fn you know we have such a strong and supportive council and we got great staff where you know, I'm the figurehead of this organization, of this government, of this community. Like, I am not this person without all of them. And that's always, you know, what's going on in my head. I mean, we want to recognize the team that we have.

But a big part of our evening was, you know, how we've been able to rekindle this relationship with the city of Williams Lake. You know, you just have to Google the city of Williams Lake and the Williams Lake First Nation over to the last, you know, five years. and there's crazy headlines that have come out where we've proactively went after council and the mayor and asked people to step down because of statements that they made. You fast forward to 20, 23, 24, and we have a great relationship with the city of Williams Lake.

We're working on our artwork for our airport with an overlapping personation hat suits than the city of Williams Lake in the Kirby from the district. We, you know, we were going to ceremonies together. I was at the mayor's house over Christmas, you know, some interesting food options, but, like, tasty.

It would be an understatement. And, you know, the way that we've been able to build towards this reconciliation discussion, even with them, and promote indigenous, non-indigenous relationships for the region to the better, has been such a fun ride, and to be acknowledged for that is just crazy. The whole ceremony was pretty wild, too. It was that government house.

I'm not sure if you've ever been there, but it's this massive house, like on the hill in Victoria. You go in, and that's where the lieutenant governor lives. And, you know, we were, my schedule is, like, really crazy. You know, I have four kids, and we were just talking about it earlier. It's playoff season, so it's a busier than usual right now with the hockey rinks. but on top of that we got a number of different things going on so the only time that i could find to fly out to government house for this reconciliation award ceremony was the morning of so we got there the award ceremony started at 530 we roll into government house at five and it was that big snowfall in vancouver victoria so like we were 60k from the airport the whole way we barely made it next morning we flew out 545 a m to salt lake city for a whole other story, but, you know, it was a bit of a whirlwind week for us that one with this Reconciliation Award and, of course, Sundance Film Festival.

Can I ask about how you process reconciliation? How do you think about it? Because so many people talk about the past and what has gone on and there's truth that needs to be told in that regard and the challenges that indigenous people have faced. But then there's the looking forward and how do we overcome these obstacles? How do we create momentum within First Nation communities to rise above the past atrocities and continue forward and to flourish and grow and share their gifts? How do you think about the balance that needs to be struck between looking at the past and looking at the future? I mean, it's such a valid, you know, point that you bring up. It is a balance.

We have this debate all the time. We have this conversation and the dialogue with our elders and with our membership and with other leaders all the time about, you know, how we manage our traditional territories even. And, you know, we have that sovereign group, that anti-industry, anti-pipeline. And yeah, I mean, we can support them. But then we also have this other side where, you know, we need housing, we need infrastructure, we need better programs and services. And, I mean, you really go down the list and all these things cost money. So, I mean, it is a balance that we need to find in this reconciliation discussion.

It is really at the heart of that, you know, as the provincial and federal government start holding up undrip and we start honor. the vision around reconciliation, it's leveling the playing field is a big part of that and having the conversations and making those uncomfortable conversations comfortable. There is this massive movement

in this country right now around I guess recognizing the legacy and the history of residential schools. With that has come investigations across the country, which one of which we are leading here at WLFN in regards. to the St. Joseph's mission. And it's sparked a lot of, you know, hate and untruths and

just negative feedback towards some of our communities and some of our peoples. But, I mean, what it's also doing is it's uncovering the truths that make people uncomfortable. And by doing that and holding up our culture and really focusing on language ceremony revitalization, we're starting to see, you know, those elders and those ancestors, those survivors be brave and starting to have that conversation helping us educate the non-Indigenous peoples of our regions. And while that is happening, you know, the cycle is being broken in our opinion, which is a big part of what reconciliation is. It's an education. But it's also, you know, creating more allies I found where, you know, before when we would strike a deal or we'd have a major project or we would

conclude a settlement or an agreement with a major proponent in our traditional territory there would be animosity from the non-indigenous population where they're just like you know why do we get that and that's not fair and that's our tax paying dollars and you hear those conversations often but now it's like you know hell yeah william's like first nation we got to continue to support what they're doing because they're making our region look better and that is a win for all of us yeah they have to realize that we have to work together in these conversations. And when we have a massive victory at WLFN, we get an award or we sign an agreement or we start a business, that money and that

recognition is like bolstering our economy here. That money is staying here. That that conversation about how good of a place that is is here. Now, it's us realizing that balance that you talked about and then just doing our part to make it a better place, not just for the Williams Lake Personation, but for the City of Williams Lake and in care of a regional district. Now, there's lots of things that we should be working on together, and it would be a lot easier if we were working together, but those conversations are easier said than done. Just got to continue to move towards that common goal. Can I ask about reclaiming the St. Joseph's Mission Indian Residential School, how did that

process come about and what did it mean? Yeah, so, you know, we've, we had the prime minister here in our community that brought a ton of profile to the region. He came and he visited the site of the former residential school of St. Joseph's Mission. That is the residential school that my dad went to, my grandma, and numerous others from multiple nations throughout this region and really through the province of British Columbia so far through our investigative works we've identified over 50 nations or 50 communities sorry that are represented with children at that school no but it wasn't just a Williams lake first nation school it was you know there was sequitin kids that went there were chilquitin kids stallium de geth newhoch you had done the list of of kids that went

there i mean it was pretty scary there aren't very many good stories that came out of that school, a lot of trauma, and a lot of triggers. So when the announcement of the 215 came out of KIB, we started, you know, down our own path, our own investigation and working collaboratively with the province of British Columbia, with the federal government, and making sure that we had the funding and the resources and the support, but that we were leading those works. And of course we hold up ceremony in that conversation but what we found is it's um it's resulted in us you know further reinforcing that there's a lot of healing that needs to happen in our communities you know it's not just like i said a williams like first nation concerned an issue it is an

indigenous issue and why aren't our kids learning about the residential schools in the curriculum of our school districts and our territories no i never learned about them I'm not sure about you, but we're starting to see that movement where curriculum is changing and those teachers and those educational institutions are starting to hold up and educate individuals on that story. I mean, that is just as important as the work that's going on over there. We want to be able to break that cycle. And on the other side of that, we still get conversations and we still get comments with our

survivors and our elders around, no, they don't want to talk about it anymore. And they don't want to hear about it anymore. And that's in the past. But by keeping in that mainstream media, we've been able to continue to make sure that work is getting done, which is not easy. I mean, I hold up our investigative team that Whitney Spearing, Charlene Bellew, Nancy, Sandy.

I mean, those are Charlene and Nancy. Those are two former chiefs that are really spearheading. That interview, investigative piece with our research team led by Whitney Spear. hearing and I just, you know, you hold them up in your thoughts and your prayers on a daily basis because of how intense that work is. So in our territory where St. Joseph's Mission is located, it's all private property there. So it's private property where the school used to sit in the outbuildings, and then as private property as you move out into the valley, more private property as you get to the edges of the valley on top of the valley. And as we start

ground-truthing the the I guess the properties you start to realize how complicated it gets right away through interviews or research through that through the archives we're bringing those survivors out onto the grounds and having them tell our stories and show us you know areas of interest to get started with the ground penetrating radar works but when you're dealing with multiple property owners it gets so much more tough because you're like really kind of you know hoping and in so far so good it's been really great with the private property owners um but i mean they could stop those works if they wanted and that's the biggest fear and that's where we push the feds and we work collaboratively with um brooks and shannon waddell on the 14 acre parcel where the school

used to sit and we were able to um find some success and purchase that 14 acre parcel where the school sat where the gym sits, numerous other outbuildings where the nuns used to stay and the priests used to stay, for example, and where the graveyard is, the historical graveyard that sat in that valley. So, I mean, that has alleviated a lot of the pressure around making sure that we can continue to get those works done. You know, it's brought us together as a team and as a community. And it's just made the conversations easier on how we move forward and chart that path and gives us peace of mind of what we can make that site because that's also going to be a big part of it. You know, there's maybe eventually we get to an excavation, exhumation,

conversation that brings all the other communities together in ceremony. But, you know, what about after that and how we make that site into a place of healing as opposed to a place of hate and anger and frustration because, you know, people want to gather there and we've got to make it safe and we want to make sure that we honor the ancestors that are buried there. This is a very complicated subject, and I don't know if you saw that I interviewed Candace Malcolm, and the organization she founded True North Media, wrote a book called Grave Error, where she disputes a lot of these claims. She questions a lot of it. And I did my best to have a sensitive conversation with her, where we start with these are human beings. These are individuals who were connected

and had family members and loved ones and never got to reach their full potential. One of the places we started with, though, was she pushed back and said, do you really think that nuns and these types of people were just letting kids die and letting them be murdered and that that was just going on in Canada and nobody cared?

That was one of her first comments. I'm wondering what your perspective on that is. I mean, I've heard those stories firsthand of the horrific things that happened at that school that is known as St. Joseph's mission. So I would contest her right away in the comments that she makes. That's calling our elders liars. and when you see the emotion you hear the stories

and you look at the abuse that has been done to date and then you look at that archival works the charges that were filed historically and taking those priests to tasks

and there is a legacy of horrific act so I don't know how she would want to say otherwise I mean it's it's documented but um i think uh you know that there's always going to be naysayers and when we think about you know i don't know i want to talk about proving them wrong getting

to a place of excavation uh you will never prove that those anomalies or reflections are unmarked graves until you do that so i mean eventually we'll probably get to that place but it's going to take time and um there's a lot of healing that needs to happen for for that to take place as well i mean you look at even even our site and where we're at and where we're going i mean we could we could still be a year or years away from that conversation and that's you know um maybe that's even being ambitious there are a lot of communities that are saying they don't want to do that and that's something that we're going to have to weigh into um the decision-making of how we move forward in the year and coming years.

One of the other comments that she made was that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission took place and they know exactly how many students went there and how many students passed away due to illnesses or like her claim is that that's all already been documented. And so if there were missing children, they would have been documented in the National Truth and Reconciliation Commission. and so this work is already complete. And my counterpoints to her was one, if you did lose a child in an organization like this,

there would be incentives to cover it up, to not have those stories told, and that many people were fleeing from these circumstances, and so there would be arguments that they ran away, and so they were never documented leaving. What are your thoughts on the fact that some of these people may not be documented? 100% facts.

You hear even stories at St. Joseph's, mission, I mean, these are public stories that are even told in that sugarcane documentary that is going to be coming out later this year, made public, and, you know, kids getting thrown in an incinerator. I mean, how do you approach that without getting emotional, extremely challenging and difficult and the amount of trauma that comes from even hearing story like that is something that we have to live with and hold up the individuals that are telling it in a way that is super challenging. Mental health and wellness of our survivors is it's of utmost importance in this language, ceremony, culture, revitalization discussion

that we continue to have. They fought so hard to give us this life that we have. uh as indigenous peoples in our communities that we have the ability to to celebrate that part of our history you know speaking our language and singing our songs and participating in ceremony um and sometimes we we take it for granted and we need to get passionate about it again to to honor and hold them up and really, you know, bite back to those individuals that are calling us liars or are saying that it's not true and it's a money grab. I mean, you can't put a price tag on the health and wellness of our community. It's just something that needs to be done. On that point, I'd just like to point out that like, and I'm hoping you can share your your story as

well. My mother was born with fetal alcohol syndrome disorder as a consequence of her mother and during St. Mary's Indian residential school here in the Fraser Valley. And so when I think about it, I go through the atrocities and the terrible trauma that my grandmother must have lived through in order to survive that and then have children. And then she has multiple children. and then those children are born with that same intergenerational trauma, but there's hope in having a child that things can improve. And so to me, I have a responsibility to lead the community the best I can, to lead my family the best I can, to set a positive example,

to show that we can break these cycles, as you were talking about earlier, and that we can show that we are resilient and that we can overcome these things. But that thinking about things in a seven generations lens is encouraging in that you know that people sacrificed so much that you could never comprehend in order for you to be here today. And that is a shared story, I think, for so many people, if their parents fought in World War II or World War I, that many of us have a story where our families fought for us to be here today, and it overcame horrendous odds in order for us to be here, and we should be grateful for that and appreciate it. And I'm just wondering if you can share your perspective on that.

i mean it's totally true and you know that healing piece a big part of it is for is forgiveness i mean i think about the history that i had and how fortunate i am that my mom raised me and you know she is a non-indigenous woman who raised just on the reserve in community of w lfn You know, she instilled hard work and good values and, you know, at the same time, did her best to hold up who we are as indigenous people and what it means to be sequim. You know, I had a lot of animosity towards my dad growing up and sort of my sisters because he was never around. And you start to learn your history and you start to learn the traumatic experience. that your parents and your grandparents and great-grandparents went through and you hear a story about how important it is to forgive in order to heal and um you know me and my dad have never been

closer but it took me a long time to get to that point you know to understand why he is the way that he is and and make sure that me as a parent isn't doing that same thing right i mean you've brought it up and i think uh you take the best qualities of your parents and and use those with your own teachings to to raise your kids so that you can put your kids into a position to break that cycle in generations from now you know we're not going to be dealing with that we're a generation removed from the indian residential school system in this country and um you know we're going to learn about it and we're going to talk about it but that same trauma that impacted my dad and intergenerational trauma that impacted me isn't necessarily

going to have the same impact on our kids and future generations from there so i mean it is exciting having these conversations too like it's inspiring to think about you know how successful we are considering and how successful you know our kids and great grandkids and grandkids and great kids are going to be um moving forward we just have to continue to be that mold and that model and you know make our ancestors proud and every time i pick up that drum i feel a little bit better even if i'm having a bad day or every time you participate in ceremony you feel a lot more pride we're seeing in our school districts too where kids are are proud to be indigenous and wasn't necessarily the case even 10 years ago which is not that

long ago. In our community here, we have a great powwow culture and we have two powwows per year. Our Father's Day powwow, that happens June 14th to 16th this year. Get a plug in here. And of course, our repetitive powwow, that

happens September 6 to 8th. We have a gorgeous arbor that our community actually built 25 years ago and 20 years ago. And you start to see more and more of these kids dancing and wanting to pick up that regalia and the amount of pride and how proud our elders are seeing that is um it's so

unbelievable to see and that's just like one piece you know the ideas that we need to continue to make them proud both present day and into the future would you mind also sharing you have a book hockey with dad and then you go and get to dance at a connect's game can you tell us that story it is one of my most favorite life moments we are a diehard kinnuck community here or diehard family i mean i grew up watching the kinnocks you know through the trials and tribulations of winning and losing and making cup finals and not winning the grand prize and uh you know i didn't start power dancing very long ago i'm just into my second year now and i got great mentors here in community

I look at a dancing water Sandy or Lenny Supernalt and just how they've been able to kind of coach me along and give me good tips and advice. Even William Lulawa, who's 18 years old, who coaches me on how to be a power dancer on the moves and even how I should do a better job but staying hydrated, which is something that seems simple

but is often overlooked when you're having fun out in the dance surface. But of course the Canucks were super fans. I got approached by Joanna Sparrow and she asked if I would be available to speak on Truth and Reconciliation Day or profile around what

we've been able to do and how we've been a part of this reconciliation discussion and this investigative works at St. Joseph's Mission where it got me on the radar and they wanted me to come and be a part of September 30th National Day of Truth and Reconciliation or a sure day with the Vancouver Knux.

I was going to get to speak, you know, and be part of the puck drop and i was like you know there was no hesitation yes i will do that and i'm super stoked to do that and then they phoned me on tuesday and they said hey uh would you be willing to dance at center ice in between the periods and i said yeah no hesitation can i bring somebody they said yeah i'm bringing william bell you then he's a band member he is one of my uh powell mentors he is an inspiration to me and then they phone me on thursday and they're like hey Hey, can you speak to the dressing room in the morning of Truth and Reconciliation Day? And they said, yeah, that seems simple.

Oh, man. I speak at a lot of events. And when we did the puck drop, my eight-year-old got to be a part of the group that dropped the puck. We have this great picture in my house now. But speaking in front of 16,000 people was not hard. It was very easy for me. it was not stressful at all. But earlier that day,

going into the dressing room and speaking to the Vancouver Canucks players about, you know, what truth and reconciliation and what this day means for indigenous peoples is probably the most stressed I've ever been at a speaking engagement. The most stress, arguably,

that I've ever been in my entire life. Wow. I walk into the room and all those guys in there, they're like legit, You know, my heroes. You got Pedersen and Miller, Demko, Rick Tockett's sitting to my right. Quinn Hughes, you have coaches like the Sedeen brothers. And I just, it was really a surreal moment.

And, you know, I always like to speak from the heart in these instances. That's one of the things that a lot of former leadership has taught me. You know, one's like Anne Louis and Nancy Sondi, the late Rick Gilbert, Willie Alphonse, you go down the list, and that was such a cool moment. Once all that was done, then, you know, we still got to stay in the bowels of the building, right,

at Rogers Center. You know, you're like a kid in a candy store in there. You're like in awe, in the hallways, down where the Zambonies are. You get our own little dressing room for VIPs. where like our regalia is all set up and we're starting to get ready to dance this is like the fun part the cool part earlier that day we got to go out there when the building was empty and we got to practice on this little you know like 10 by 10 mat or 10 by 20 mat or whatever it is under the jumbotron

you hear like uh you hear the the the music just just blasting um and you know there's just a crazy amount of pride and excitement that comes with with powwow and powwow music and um when when when when we're looking at getting to do that uh to help the team that you love and and get to honor indigenous people in a pack stadium it was it was a real surreal moment that was the easiest and funnest part was was a dancing piece and and i keep pounding the vancouver canucks for that footage for those pictures, but I haven't gotten it yet. I don't know. Maybe you're saving it. That would be

amazing to be able to watch and be able to replay and share with the community. I'm wondering, and I don't mean to put a damper on it, but I'm just wondering how you think about these moments because I've heard comments. I, Niz, Louis from the Stolo region, called out the Canucks at one point in time. She was

going to go sing the Canadian National Anthem, I believe, and the financial offer I think the Canucks were making was not in line with what she was looking I just sort of think about some indigenous people have this perspective of like there's too much tokenism going on or there's a fear of tokenism. Does that ever cross your mind when these opportunities come up, a fear that you're not getting the respect you deserve, or is that easy for you to process? Yeah, it's tough. And I mean, maybe it's a little bit easier for me, you know, like I'd do those things for free. It's not even a contemplation. It was funny when they asked me,

I had a list of demands, and they're just like, no. And I said, okay, well, I don't care. This is my team, and I'm going to do it anyways. And you have those conversation afterwards, like we were able to secure a handful of tickets for members. We were able to secure a handful of tickets for some of the kids that were down there on my son's hockey team

and that was good enough payment for me I understand the importance of making sure that we pay and we honor our artisans and our cultural leaders because I know how it is in our community even here at WLFN we have four cultural workers on staff they make an annual salary and we try and hold up and honor the importance of those individuals in our community

because we know how detrimental they are to. Our healing is a community and our revitalization discussion that we continue to bring up. But, you know, there is, again, I mean, you continue to talk about it, even you had mentioned it earlier, this balance that we need to strike, you know?

It's very easy to call individuals down on both sides of the table, but, I mean, we need to see progress. And if I'm making a sacrifice to see that progress and being a part of that movement in a good way. Hopefully what it does is it blaze that trail so that, you know, it's easier and individuals are fairly compensated for their time and how they hold up indigenous peoples in this country.

But, I mean, it's way easier for me than it was 10 years ago for those leaders, 20 years ago for those leaders. I just had this conversation at lunch. actually about you know you think about how grandiose the afn first nation summit ubcic is in regards to how easy it is for me as a leader to get down there and be a part of it and participate you can participate virtually now or you could fly down drive down and you're in a hotel you have a per diem it's it's super easy and simple you just have to find the time to go where i mean you look historically and those leaders were carpooling hitchhiking sleeping in a

park benches, getting apartments together and sleeping on floors and on couches and bathtubs, just so that they can make those meetings so they could make it easier for future leadership to have say at the table with the provincial and federal government. So, I mean, it is a balance there. I mean, you don't want to be a token. I understand that part of the conversation, but you want to make sure that you are being a part of making it easier for future generations so it's a tough a tough balance to find for sure just like anything else for the Vancouver Connect so I would have hitchhiked my down there myself if I had to well said I'm wondering if you could describe what it's like to be a chief with with

somebody who is non-indigenous somebody who doesn't understand often we get compared to municipalities but I do find that like our housing is completely different. Like so many processes on reserve are so unique. Culture is key within First Nation communities in a different way that it would be for a, for a municipality. Would you mind describing what being a chief means in comparison to other leadership? Yeah. I mean, it is like being, I mean, obviously it's different than a municipality or a provincial or federal government, but I mean, it's fairly similar, except that every single one of your constituents has access to your cell phone, knows where you live, and for the most part, you know, grew up

with you and knows who you are on a very personal level. And I think about, you know, we've had these conversations in the past with our non-Indigenous staff and individuals that we bring in to help provide better programs, services, and policies, et cetera, in our community. It's like, you know, there's this hybrid. model that we need to have in regards to governance. That isn't necessarily like municipality because we have to hold up the history of who we are as indigenous peoples and what our governance look like. That is not an easy question to answer by any stretch of the means. But, you know, I look at the misconceptions that you always have with non-indigenous

people around. We don't pay taxes. We don't pay for housing. We don't pay for education. Everything just comes to us for free. And, I mean, we are supported by. the federal government. I look at our staff here. We have 108 staff now, 50% of which is paid for by funding that we get flowing and scraping from the federal government. The rest comes from own source revenue, from successful businesses, from agreements that we signed through, you know, our own means, our own blood, sweat, and tears. And, you know, what we get from the the feds isn't enough to provide proper program services for our community, continue to improve the housing crisis that every single one of us has, improve our infrastructure and make sure

that we have clean drinking water and proper sewer system. People take these things for granted, but it is stressful on a day to day because we are in charge of all of that. But, you know, as a chief, you were the figurehead of that community, of our government here at WLFN. But I am one person at that council table. And, I mean, I'm sure that you can relate. Everyone puts the chief on a pedestal and they get all the glory. I also get all the crap. But, you know, it's, I'm not the one that's going in there and, like, changing everything and making decisions by myself.

We make that as a collective, but we also make that on the advice and guidance. of the staff that we have that is also something that we were very blessed with here at w and we've been able to develop a lot of capacity both in-house bring a lot of capacity in that allows us to do these things and do them in a timely manner now it's not as easy as like hey we want a new rec center or we want a new administration building you know make a statement like that it's uh you know it's very complex thinking about you know where is that money going to come from to build it going through the engineering the detailed engineering the site prep i mean you these things take years and um that's where that's where i've been really blessed again in all

honesty is my timing seems to have always been really good former leadership did a ton of work and really set things up for me so that when our administration got in some big things happened right away and uh you know it's like wow chief willie's doing all these things but it you know it's that former administration which i was also a part of that set that up in the in the timing just worked out when when we were able to get in but you know we continue to to raise that bar to do it and we have non-indigenous people coming in and asking us you know what does it mean to be chief and how great it is and you know what they don't see i mean they see that that positive front that we always put on, but they don't see, you know, some of the stuff

that really weighs in on your mental health, you know, weighs in on you as a dad, and you get those in any kind of politics. And that's probably the toughest part of what it all is, is weighing that for the better good of our community. You know, I'm not shy to shed a tear or cry or I'm not shy to speak to our elders or talk to a therapist and, you know, go play hockey a couple times of week because that's what helps me find my balance. But, you know, you only can do what you can do, and the membership recognizes that. But, but again, I always fall back on, they have to recognize our counsel on our team here because they're pretty special, too.

may I ask about your election process when I first ran on council for my community we didn't have any processes like a debate portion or an all candidates meeting where people can get to know our community still very much votes based on whose last name is big in the community and you have a few big families that vote for their kin and it's the hatfields and the McCoys continuously where they're battling for grounds and they're making decisions in the best interest to their family and luckily I'm from a relatively small last name but I ran on a platform I went forward I held all candidates meetings only a few people showed up I posted a lot on Facebook I did an interview with the local reporter I said what I wanted to accomplish and what I thought I could bring to the table that was unique and I came in second place for both running for chief and running for council and I believe that I was in large part because I was running on something I was I was saying what I was going to do rather than just running on my last name and I'm wondering how your elections go, and do you have any processes that I could bring in for my next election that have worked for you or that seem to bring out the best ideas rather than just the last names?

Yeah, well, I mean, my first plan of attacks is going to continue to have kids, and then eventually they'll all become voting. I'm just kidding, but we have a custom election code here at WLFN, so we run on four years staggered terms. So the next election is actually this summer. There'll be three council positions up for grabs. And, you know, some people say it's a popularity contest. But again, I mean, I come from the same background as you. I mean, you lead by example. You show the community that you care.

You know, you bring a certain set of skills that may be a little bit different than other people. But your passion for the community is a big part of what our membership will recognize. You know, they see you at community events. They see you talking and portraying this positive image of not only who you are, but where you come from and what nation you're from. And there's a respect piece that comes with all of that. We always have to carry ourselves in a good way. And I figured that I always have at WLFN ever since I was a kid and it comes from those teachings from my mom and certain teachings from my dad too and my family on both sides. but making sure that the membership knows who you are

is a key piece where if there is a debate or an open forum, we have that as well through our custom election code and you have to make sure you participate in those. I mean, it could be the difference, but you also just want to make sure that people are making informed decisions when they're going to the polls

and it doesn't just based on family. I mean, you need the best people that you can in these positions because they're making decisions on behalf of all of you and um you know that has drastic impacts on not just this generation but future generation seven generations from now like you were saying earlier and um you know it's good to having the staggered terms i think for here at w lfn because then you get consistency in that leadership group so there isn't a huge upheaval you know every every four years and what what i found is you know it's very consistent we've always had a good counsel since i've been in this role but um you know there was

there is always great voices at the table that challenged the administration that currently is in i remember even me i used to i used to have full-on arguments and yelling matches with former chief anne louis and i think that is healthy i think that's probably why she respects me the way that she does and it's why i have always respected her is she she would never back down and she was always so passionate and i took great lessons out of that even to this day um you know she's so strong she's back at the council table now and we don't have those same yelling matches but um but she always you know puts me in my place and then it gives me a lesson when it's needed uh which is also very important to me it's good to have

those competing minds but at the end of the day when we do make decisions i always say this we all support that decision moving forward and we put that united front out so that membership can see that we are strong and I think that's benefited the best in the short term and the long term here where we come from in our small part of that interior I've written an opinion editorial and basically the thesis is that I think my main concern moving into the future is I think first nation communities need to somewhat be treated like a municipality in that those council meetings are public record and that there should be reporters that are able to come and ask questions and make sure that we're leading properly because the tragedy that i see with other first nation communities that are still in poverty is sometimes those leaders aren't

being accountable for taking action for taking necessary steps and for moving forward so we have communities that like yours that that shed a beacon of light for communities like mine to go we want to move in that direction and your health building looks amazing and we want to move and we want to be more like that but then i see other communities and they're stuck in the same slumps they were when i was a kid and they haven't moved anywhere and i think healthy journalism would be able to highlight and help inform that dialogue not all not all members know what questions to ask or how to phrase the question or how to get an answer but journalists certainly do and they know how to hold leadership accountable and ask the necessary questions and i think right now one of the fears that so many people have

is insulting a First Nation community or coming onto the land inappropriately and of course there's a place for that but when we're talking about getting First Nation communities out of poverty this has to be a part of the conversation in my opinion to make sure that the leaders are actually delivering on what they said

they were going to do and that there isn't just the positive stories that there's tough stories too where we find out this leader isn't on the up and up and they need to be removed from office and another leader needs to step in so that we don't stay in these ruts for 2030 years and so that we don't have such a huge discrepancy between successful first nations and unsuccessful first nations when leadership seems to be the challenge do you have any perspectives on

that yeah i mean it's the timing of you asking that question is this crazy we had a community meeting last night and it was the discussion around williams like first nation pursuing a self-government agreement starting a rights and recognition table with the federal government moving the direction you know for the last 30 years we've been in the treaty process There's been a ton of amazing work that has happened. 30 years ago, 3D was really the only option to be a self-determining First Nation, achieving self-government. Legislative landscape has changed significantly over the last 30 years,

with numerous court cases that have changed, you know, and evolved and given us additional options. So self-government agreement is something that we wanted a table with the community and get some feedback and have some conversation around. Is this something that appeals to you and that you would support? We figure we have the mandate through the treaty process because self-government agreement is a part of that process anyways. So paralleling the two would be a benefit. We would put the needed pressure on the government

so that we can achieve one of them in a timely manner instead of waiting another decade or more. But one of the comments that we had at our community meeting last night just from one of, you know, I don't know how you term it, like a radical individual saying we don't have community meetings and we need to be more transparent and our communications suck. And it's just like, okay, well, let's just unpack that for a second. And, you know, I'm always quick to say and even said it last night, like, you were not going to hurt my feelings or counsel's feelings by asking questions. You know, all we ask is that you'd be respectful. And you say to the room, you know,

we're not going to proactively go out there and comment and answer questions on aggressive social media posts. But if you come into the office and you want to have a conversation, bring it on. If you don't feel comfortable with doing that, you know, forward an email and ask those questions. And we're never going to, you know, judge an individual for doing that. I mean, we want to be challenged at the end of the day. It's healthy conversation to have in transparency, which is what the membership

wants and we're quick to rebuttal last name i mean we've had numerous referendums to move ourselves along in the treaty process we have had uh we had our specific claim referendum our land code ratification referendum we have numerous meetings that are more engagement sessions around the direction of how we approach industry so you know there is validity in the concerns that we need to have more yeah I mean, COVID really jammed us up in that conversation. But I mean, now we're getting back out there and we're starting to open back up. And that was one of my comments to some of our team today was, man, we need to have more community sessions, just even information sessions about what's going on so that people can feel more comfortable and give a shit if they want to. You know, like those are my favorite sessions because you really get to hear what the concerns are.

And the last thing we want to do is muzzle people and not feeling comfortable, but voicing. their opinion. So moving towards open council meetings is another priority for our administration. I was talking to a member last night. He said, when is that going to happen? And I'm like, I know I sound like a broken record around these things, but we have all the latest and greatest technology here at WLFN with our new administration build. It's going to happen. We just need to make sure we don't roll it out and fumble it. And that is the task to our team that we have with our CAO and our communications group on how we tighten up our minute taking and our messaging and how those meetings are structured in a way that is not going to, well, that's going to keep

us safe as a council and as a community because really once you open it up to membership and having those public council meetings, the world is going to see them and that's something that we need to be cognizant of and know how to properly structure our meetings to reflect that. Making sure that we're being as transparent as possible is something that every community should strive for because that is often the misconception in indigenous country across Canada, is that they're protecting, they're hiding, they're corrupt, and there's, you know, it's the same in every community. That's the one if I guess they're encouraging things is that the same problems that we're having here at WLFN are the same problems that are that are happening in every single country. some of us are just, you know, getting better at how we deal with them, but there's still, you know, we're not perfect here. There's still a ton of work to do on a number of different fronts that keep me awake at night.

Yes, I just had an open house recently in regards to housing, and we had the Ministry of Transportation come out, Fraser Valley Regional District. We're working on getting 30 new units. We're working on how to communicate that and then getting member feedback on how to design it. And I spoke with all the stakeholders afterwards on how they thought it went. At times it got a little bit louder. So I was like, did everything go okay? How are you feeling? And the response was how impressed they were and how passionate the membership was about sharing their thought.

I think for so many, it's like you just don't have the opportunity to say the one thing you want this road to be expanded a little bit so that you can fit your bus that you're getting picked up for your kids for. And like these very simple things that community members need to share. And I'm always very cognizant of making sure that even if it doesn't make sense at first, that I kind of steal man the position and try and figure out what's the best part of that argument and how can I carry that piece forward because there is this balance of like if you put it out to the whole world to see information can be misconstrued or misunderstood and you want to be cognizant that certain information isn't kind of going off in the wind. I know whenever we're in a specific claim now in my community, there's talks of like, oh, are we getting a payout? Is membership getting a payout? So like how things. are communicated is something you have to be cognizant of, but you never want membership to feel that cut off. And I certainly sympathize that there's lots of TikTok videos out there about indigenous leadership and how we can do better. I mean, it is so true. And you get into those community meetings, and usually it's the loudest voice that really commands the room. And, you know, free housing is one that's always thrown out there, per capita payouts. And the debate that we have in our

community meetings around people that say things like that or comments that are made on our social media is that, you know, we just won this specific claim that was a 30-year court battle, went to the Supreme Court of Canada, went through the tribunal process, and we ended up settling out 135 million. We took $5 million, we did a per cap, we paid off some bills, we put some aside for some infrastructure improvements, but then we locked up $130 million into a community trust. And there was a ton of debate around this. How could you do that?

You should be paying it all out. This is BS and, like, those are what the loud voices were saying. And if you don't look closely, I mean, that's what you think the entire community is saying. But when we go to referendum, you know, it's 90 plus percent vote in favor of locking that up into a community trust. And that's something that really opened my eyes around, you know, the loudest ones in the room don't necessarily speak for the room and we have to make sure that we keep that in mind when we're making decisions on behalf of the community you know it's easy to succumb to

that loud voice and think that they're speaking and part of as part of the broader community but they're for most part not and now there is no way and I said this in those engagement sessions and to people that would talk to me is now I would I'm ready and willing to be voted out to make sure that this gets locked up into a community trust because that isn't just the legacy of his current administration or staff. I mean, protecting that money for future generations is the legacy of every single elder and ancestor that fought for that specific claim

in writing that historical wrong over the past 30 years. And that was just so much more important. I mean, my kids will get a nice check to start them out in life when they turn 18 and every single future kid moving forward, which is pretty great. plus I mean the annual interest off of that specific claim is is going to allow us to do whatever we want really that that is a lot of money annually that will be coming into WOF and long past I'm gone and that's something that we're very proud of but again I mean it doesn't

come with making sure that we are being transparent and communicating with our membership I mean, simple things, like just even returning a phone call to members, whether it's good news or bad news, is what they want. I mean, people want information they want to be communicated with. And sometimes that's not easy to do because it's not good news, but it's something that we have to do. We always have to make sure that we realize that we have our positions in our organization, whether it's a chief and council or whether it's a CEO or whether it's social development, senior manager or senior manager of education. And we have jobs because of our members. And that has to sit close to our hearts when we're doing this work, too.

That's beautiful. I have two more questions. One of them is a little bit longer. And I didn't just invite you on for altruistic reasons. I actually would love your perspective on my work on council. So I'm going to give a little bit of a rambling talk on what I've been working on. And I'd love to hear your feedback on the end on where I could take things. We're about 18 months from our next election, so I just love your thoughts.

So I manage the portfolios for housing, economic development, finance, and tax. On housing when I joined Chihuahawthal First Nation on their council, we had no housing manager, no housing plan to repair the existing 89 homes in our community, and no plan to ever build new homes. Since about 18 months ago, September 2022, I've brought on a housing manager. We've repaired about 15 homes. We have a plan in place to repair another 15 within the next year or so. and a long-term plan over the next three years to repair all 89.

I would say when I came on, all 89 had severe health or safety issues in regards to them. So we should have that resolved by the time that my term is up, or we should be on the way and there should be shovels in the ground repairing those existing homes. We're putting in an application right now. We did one for RHA3 for CMHC. We were unsuccessful in that bid because we didn't put in our own source revenue. Now we're working on a BC housing application for 30 units, and I'm optimistic that we'll see results on that.

So housing is moving forward on all good fronts in that regard. Then economic development, when I came on, everything was done in house. We didn't have an active economic development corporation that operated separate from our First Nation community. So we've gotten that up and running. We have three board members. We're working on getting up to five. And they're now dealing with the responses on procurement and processes and what we're looking for. And we're working on an economic development plan in that regard so that we can operate,

based on what the members actually want and what jobs and businesses they'd like to see started in the community. So that's moving in a really good direction. And then for finance, we were three years behind on our audits. And come March, we should be caught up on all of our audits. We're working on bringing in a controller so they can manage all of the finances and make sure that we stay up to date. And then we're now implementing budgeting for all of the departments, which we didn't have previously. So that is also all being sorted out. and we're working on getting approved by First Nations Financial Management Board certification,

and we should have that in the following year, which will likely be 2025 by the time that we're starting to get approved on all of those fronts. And then taxes, we were on the previous system, and now we're working on getting up to date on the new federal system that goes outside of the Indian Act. And that's moving quite well, and then we'll start to have certification by the provincial authority on taxation property assessment, PC assessment. So that is where I'm at, but I'm very eager to continue the momentum forward. And I'm wondering what advice would you have for a council member that I might not have heard before and how can I continue to do better if I do choose to either run for chief or council again in 18 months? How long are your terms again? Three years. Yeah, well done.

You know, you listen to all that work. And I mean, it is inspirational even for me. I mean, we have a massive team of individuals that help us move these things along. W.O.F.N. I mean, I am no crackerjack when it comes to taxes and finances. But I mean, we have individuals that are on staff. You know, they deliver the vision that we have as a council and it's communities like yours that, you know, help give us that mold. When we hear stories like this, you take that little bit of what other communities are doing. and you tailor them to the needs of your own community.

One of the biggest pieces of advice that I have for anybody that's getting into leadership is to make sure that they realize that they have to be patient. You know, like these things don't happen overnight. And we see it time and time again. People are running for leadership roles in their territories is that they're going to change the world. They're going to do this. They're going to do that. And then they get in there.

And it's just like, you know, there is a bureaucracy with indigenous communities just the same as there is with municipalities and provincial governments and federal governments. I mean, we can act a little bit quicker, obviously, but we need to have the proper people in place for that to realize. And, of course, you need community support,

which, you know, you want to come in and you want to fix 89 homes? I mean, geez, that is, you know, an undertaking that could potentially take decades if you're relying and waiting on the federal government to do it. And I can imagine how challenging it would have been for you to even get 15 and then have the commitment for additional homes in the future. I mean, those are probably, you know, pestering and just being aggressive on your calls with the feds

and just the consistency of doing that on a weekly basis probably to make sure to shake loose that funding. and how you're partnering that up with BC housing and other funding sources to make sure that it happens. And then on the flip side of that, people are still screaming for new homes, I bet, right? And when people want new homes, subsidize homes, or it's free homes, which isn't a reality in indigenous communities because somebody has to pay for that mortgage.

So if you're giving a free home or you're subsidizing homes, that money comes from own source revenue. And it's that educational piece that we need to make sure that we are sharing with our members. If you don't pay, well, I mean, how do you expect us to even fix the homes? And this is that recurring cycle that we see and also making sure that we're educating them how to properly maintain their homes. I mean, I'm a homeowner. I owned a trailer and then I eventually bought a house in community here.

Built a house, got a mortgage. you do the things that need to be done and like being a homeowner is like stressful you know like looking at your roof and making sure that you're you're maintaining your uh your your your plumbing and and and the soft i mean you really it's it's an educational piece that i wish i had when i was growing up and and we think about wanting to make change in in our community I mean, these we just, you know, going back to, we just have to make sure that we are patient, but we are also persistent that those conversations are continuing to happen on a weekly basis. Because, I mean, you have experienced it firsthand.

If you're not continuously hounding those funding groups, bringing it up at the council table, you know, they're never going to happen. It's that squeak wheel that's going to get rewarded for the most part, unless you're a massively successful community and there's revenue streams that are just flowing in and you're able to use that own source revenue and allocated to the different initiatives in the community. I mean, that's a really cool conversation too. I look at our community and the success that we've had. We're resource-based economy here. I'm sure you know it's forestry, it's mining, it's pipeline. We're trying to diversify, of course, and we're doing our best with

our cannabis initiatives, amongst other things. But, you know, signing an impact benefit agreement with the local mine doesn't necessarily sit well with the entire community or Indian country for that matter. But, you know, signing that impact benefit agreement, creating that relationship with proponents in the territory and striking up partnerships with industry is about building a revenue stream and having a seat at the table and finding, again, going back to that balance, right, of being proper stewards of the land and being able to provide better program, services, housing, et cetera, for your community.

All of those things cost money. And that's the balance that we need to continue to stress to our community. And we're not sellouts at WLFN, but we are doing what's best to make sure that we can be better and we can see progress so that we can make sure that houses are being repaired and people are working and providing for their families and the health and wellness and the family structures continue to improve in our communities.

you know but again you go back these things don't happen overnight and we have to make sure that we are being patient in how we approach them but as long as progress is happening we have to make sure that we have to be it was chief clearance louis who said it's the economic development that pulls the social cart and i thought that that was an apt statement to keep in mind for first nation communities who are facing those challenges my last question for you because you are such a great leader is what makes a great leader in your perspective. Oh, man. I've been blessed with good timing.

I always say that. I got into council and I got to work under some pretty amazing people. I got to mentor under, I mentioned her already. Former Chief Ann Louie. I got to mentor and sit beside the late former chief and sat on council the entire time I was in leadership. Rick Gilbert, Chris Wycott seniors at our table. Nancy Sandy,

former chief, she works on our St. Joseph's Mission Investigative team. She is quick to put me in line always. And I feel that's because she respects me. We have to always make sure and hold up those former leaders because there's going to be a point in time

when I'm not a leader anymore. And, you know, I'd like to hope that I will be respected the same way that I respect our former leaders. You always have to make time for them and appreciate their opinions and respect the comments that they make because they always make them in a good way

and they used to be in the seat that you're in right now. I think about the lessons that I've been told that could have arguably got me removed from office or tainted my reputation or, you know, just how they were used as life lessons to me because of just how stressful this position is, right? And, you know, the life that we live is filled with stress and anxiety and we're always trying to find the balance and keep everybody happy.

But, you know, everybody has their own issues that happen and their own stresses that happen. And we have to also make sure that we're respecting those as well. So what makes a good leader, being fair, being honest, and just making sure that we're making that time to listen to every single one of those members that we have in holding up our elders and our ancestors that have, you know, done it before and lived it before and honoring them at the same time. I mean, it's no easy task.

I come off shiny, but, you know, I don't. about a Rocky Road, just like anybody else, which is, you know, a part of the process. It's funny, I had this conversation with my dad the other day, and he was saying, what are you going to do after you're done as the chief? What are you going to do if you get elected out? And I said, I don't know, celebrate. It's a stressful position sometimes, and he freaked out. He was like, what? And I'm just like, you know, I'm half joking with you, dad,

but like not having to worry on a daily basis about the direction of the community and, you know, how we improve the health and wellness and life of future generations. You know, we'll still do that to an extent outside of leadership. But, you know, life would probably get a little bit more simpler. And then that's a good thing, too. I'd probably have more time for family and more time to learn my language, for example. I mean, those are also important things. The same conversation pivoted into, you know, dad, when are you going to retire?

When are you going to, you know, be an elder in our community? And he's like, I can never retire. I can, you know. But it's just like, no, seriously. You know, why don't you retire? You can come drive our elders bus. you uh you can work part time because you know it's not a full time job and then you could also you know pick that drum back up and learn your language and be an elder in our community and uh you know

he laughed like i was joking but i was dead serious um you know we we have to understand the stress like it's put on our leaders across indian country and and recognize that um as we move forward and as we look at, you know, the future generation of leaders that are coming up. And it's not an easy position. It gets only even more challenging when you factor in all of the, you know, social media and access that people have to you. Because really, I am a phone call away from every single one of our members, and I know that because they phone me all the time. Sometimes they phone me to call me down, and sometimes they phone me to thank me. And sometimes they phone me just to have a conversation.

And, you know, we have access across the board on every single different social media platform and making sure that we're honoring, you know, what each of our leaders go through and holding them up at the same time is very key to that conversation. That's the messaging that we need to continue to have as well. Brilliant. You have a few powwows coming up. You mentioned the documentary coming soon. Would you mind telling people what's coming soon for you? Yeah, we have our traditional. powwow June 14th to 16th that'll be fun more low key but still awesome we have our

competition powwow September 6 to 8th that is like the big show it's like the Stanley cup for territory here last year we had championship dancers from all over western Canada we had nine drum groups some big ones from even back east it was some show you know we had some very talented individuals in there you know i dance and i put in you know hundreds of hours every summer try and like be sharp and in shape and i don't even touch the the talent that comes to our powwow uh in in september and and even honestly in um in june so we have those two everyone is welcome we continue to level up on both of them and then we have of course the documentary about our investigative works over at St. Joseph's Mission,

which premiered at Sundance in January. We won, I think it was a Best Director Award. It got picked up by National Geographic, so it'll be streaming on Disney Plus within the next six months sometime. So, yeah, that will be, you know, a big one. It is something that, you know, the vision, I'm in it, like, I'm not the star or anything.

I'm just in it, which is cool. But there's some really important stories that come out of that, you know, about the history and legacy of residential schools and some of the atrocities that happened. But, you know, the vision of that documentary will be that it is added into the curriculum of every single school in this country. That's something that we'll push for because it's an important story to tell and it should be a part of that education of Canadians, indigenous,

non-indigenous for years and years and generations to come so that's fun we'll have the premier for that in williams like hopefully before it debuts on uh disney plus but um we'll keep you updated on that one that sounds great you have dip netting with dad and hockey with that and if i'm not mistaken uh there was a really recent uh story in your local newspaper saying that you're going to do a live reading uh with one of the schools yep no we we we i try and fit him in you know, as much as I can, because it's really important, right? You know, you instill that pride into those indigenous kids to see not just an author, but a leader, you know, taking the time to be a part of their day and hold them up as

young indigenous people in this world. It was funny that the one, I've done a couple over the past, I guess, March, last month. And one sticks to mind where a girl, a young girl, in the school says my mom dries fish and uh we're like at the end of dip netting with dad and i say yeah and you know what your mom is the best dry salmon maker in the whole territory and she was like beaming with pride right and everyone's like whoa yeah that's so cool and they're like you know it's like an exciting moment and then i run into the mum and she's just like now i got to make dry salmon for a whole that's all so funny but you got to hold up those artisans too because they're a very important part of that revitalization of our culture and our ceremony language

discussion you know and there's a whole economy around that too it's a whole other conversation right people are trying to provide for their families at the end of the day and the easier that we can make it for them uh the better i mean you you you commented in our previous reamble about some of the shirts that I've worn and I think about like dancing water sandy it's built in the majority of the shirts that I have Rosemary Johnson and they're gorgeous shirts and you know that is the kind of talent that we have right here in our communities and that's just WLFN right and go across the board of those artisans that we should be holding up and showcasing their work on the events that we participate in go to

not only as leaders but as indigenous people because everybody always asks those earrings that my partner wears you know everyone asks or who your cousin wears everybody asks that's that money that goes into the pocket that stays right here here in williams lake we're going to make sure that we're we're holding them up and proud to showcase them so lots of exciting things we'll have hopefully a couple more books coming out and announced within the next year or so. You know, we have them ready, just waiting on the illustrator. It's a tough cookie that Kevin Eastope. Kevin, if you're listening, man, sign up. Let's go. Chief, you are an inspiration to communities like mine. Your community is an inspiration to communities like mine. We're looking on

who's doing it right, on who's setting the example, on which footsteps we can follow in and who we can learn from. And I'm regularly looking at you. My fellow council member, Kelsey John, is regularly talking about how we need a health building. We need a multi-purpose building like WLFN. And so you guys have set the standard and you're inspiring other First Nation communities to go, we need to give our members better. And I thank you and your community for all the work you're doing on setting. Such a great example. Oh, man. I appreciate it, Aaron. I mean, you're an inspiration to us, man. Like, this is what makes my life funner and our jobs easier as leaders is that we don't have to recreate the wheel every single time we want to do something. And when we think about, you know, the rising tide and other communities flourishing, well, I mean, that's healing.

That's a lot of pride. So just keep doing what you're doing too. And I appreciate the kind words. And just remember when you say them, you don't say Chief Willie Sellers, you say the Williams Lake First Nation. because we are a team here at W.LFM. That sounds good. I will definitely do that. Thank you again for being willing to do this. It's always a pleasure connecting with you.

I think we're going to have to do it in person one of these days. You know, I watch a lot of Joe Rogan, so maybe we could even talk conspiracy theories and Indian country and all those kind of cool things too. But we've got to keep sitting across from each other. Exactly, yeah. We'll have to have you in studio if you're ever down in Chilliwack. Come on down, and we'd love to host you.

Okay, sounds good. Awesome. Aaron, have a good one. I'll know I'm going to I'm Thank you.