Nuanced. - 178. Federal Minister Patty Hajdu on the COVID-19 Pandemic & Reconciliation

Episode Date: December 2, 2024

Aaron Pete sits down with Patti Hajdu, former Minister of Health and current Minister for Indigenous Services, to discuss leading during the COVID-19 crisis, reconciliation, the $360 billion Indigenous infrastructure gap, residential school denialism, and the challenges facing Indigenous businesses in Canada.Send us a textThe "What's Going On?" PodcastThink casual, relatable discussions like you'd overhear in a barbershop....Listen on: Apple Podcasts   SpotifySupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger Than Me podcast. Here is your host, Aaron P. Being a leader is not easy, especially when times are tough or the issues are complicated. I'm speaking with the former Minister of Health who served during the COVID-19 pandemic and the current Minister for Indigenous Services Canada. We discussed the pressure of decision-making during crises, the infrastructure gap in indigenous communities, pretendians, and whether or not we should criminalize Indian residential.

school to nihilism. My guest today is Patty Heidu. Minister, it is an honor to have you on the show. Thank you so much for being willing to share your time and thank you to your team for helping set this up. Would you mind first introducing yourself? Sure, I'm Patty Heidu. I'm a member of parliament for Thunder Bay Superior North. I'm a liberal member of parliament. And I'm also the Minister of Indigenous Services, Canada, and FedNOR, which is an economic development agency for Northern Ontario. I'd like to take this back somewhat to the beginning. I think it's important when we're talking about politics, current events,

those types of things, that we humanize the conversation. You were actually the executive director of Shelter House Thunder Bay. Would you mind reflecting on your work in homelessness and substance use during that period? Oh, yeah, thank you very much. In fact, that's when my first, well, I guess my interest in politics really began to grow in leaps and bounds. I had previously worked for public health and in the areas of drug policy and youth development and housing and homelessness.

And when I decided that I would apply for the job of Executive Director of Shelter House, I didn't know exactly what I was getting into other than I felt that the organization was at a really critical moment. They had just started to offer a managed alcohol program which many people didn't understand very well in our community but was such a critical piece around connecting people to housing.

in a compassionate harm reduction way. And the executive director there at the time was very tired and asked me if I would consider applying because even though he was tired, he loved his organization, and so I did. And those three and a half years that I spent at the shelter were really pivotal in my growth and development. I had done a lot of public policy work.

I'd worked with youth and different youth groups and indeed met lots of substance users and people that work with substance users. but this was my first intensive experience with such a vulnerable, marginalized group of people. 80% of the people that Shelterhouse served approximately at that time were indigenous from all kinds of different places, a lot from Northern Ontario and small communities that were very remote, but some from across the country as well. There were men, women, and youth over 16 were eligible to stay at the shelter.

and it was a really tight small shelter, and yet we managed to provide a combination and two hot meals a day, not just for residents, but also for people in the community. It was a unionized environment, which was a very interesting space for me to learn about. But what I learned mostly was just the, you know, I used to say that if you really wanted to see

the end stage of colonization, visit any shelter in Canada, and you will meet the most traumatized people, often through the process of colonial policies that inflicted so much damage, not just on them, but on their own families. And so it was there that I realized I wanted to be part of something bigger so that we could hopefully start to stem the tide of that kind of suffering. I think that that experience must be so valuable in the work you do

because the challenge of people struggling with addiction has somewhat become, well, has very much become polarized. and become a political issue rather than the reality. Like I've served as a native court worker for five years and worked with people in these types of circumstances and you start to have such a deep understanding of like the circumstances and the issues they're trying to overcome.

And that this is a lot of back history that's caused them to be there today, that it's not their preference to be in that circumstance. And I think the tragedy of the conversation we're having around drug use and how to address this issue, is we're looking at the most vulnerable, the most marginalized, the people facing the toughest times as the problem, when it's often, they've experienced the most problems. The system has failed them again and again and again.

And then they're the ones we're kind of looking at is like, well, these people are like, no, you have to look at these people as individuals that have gone through trauma and abuse and support them. And so what is it like to take those experiences in that work into the roles that you've played within government? have real world understanding. Some politicians, they don't have the real world experience working with these individuals. How has that shaped you? Well, I've been really fortunate to carry the voices and experiences that you talked about with me in all of the roles that I've served as a federal cabinet minister over the last nine years. And I think you're absolutely right.

The more that we can actually use our experiences in community to influence the way that laws are created or money is spent or policies are put into place, the better, I think, the outcomes. You know, you're right, this has become a really polarizing conversation. And I think we live in an age where everything is so deeply polarized, you know. But, you know, I think you're also extremely right when, you know, the very people that are getting blamed or the very people that are getting sort of punted around like a football, really, are the most vulnerable that have the least voice in any system.

And, you know, when I ran that shelter, I used to say, after I'd been there for a while, and saw how this whole entire system just grinds people through, you know, that not only are individuals who are experiencing homelessness, not only are they placeless, but they're actually voiceless and faceless. And, you know, how many times have you seen that where there are, you know, people on the street and other people walkers and passers by are, you know, too afraid to say hello. And, you know, not only are they not welcome in, you know, public spaces, but they're often and, you know, not welcome in spaces where there might be washrooms or a place to wash their hands or a place to get a glass of water.

And so I always celebrate compassion whenever I see it, no matter if it's the smallest act of compassion, which might be stopping and saying hello to see if someone needs a sandwich or hand or something. Look, I'm not naive enough to think that a sandwich is going to cure someone's, you know, entire situation. But I can tell you that kindness goes a long way to making people feel like they're might be some value in their lives and there might be some hope for them that there is a better tomorrow. And it starts with that nugget of compassion. And so, you know, sometimes compassion is at this very basic level of feeding a hungry person right in front of you. And sometimes compassion is thinking about how the policies that you're putting into place are going to affect

the people that have never had voice in the systems that are in some cases designed to harm them. And in some cases, it's designed to control them. The other piece I wanted to ask about, and I'm not an expert, so I'm just more curious about the human experience, you were the Minister of Health during the pandemic, and during a time where all of us were overwhelmed with information, perhaps scared in circumstances, you were in charge of trying to make decisions during this period where information was starting to flow. what was the weight of that responsibility of that file during that period? How did you process that as an individual? You're trying to go to bed. Like I've had the opportunity to interview the mayor of Abbotsford shortly after the 2021 atmospheric river that absolutely like destroyed farmers lives and livelihoods and careers.

And like those moments when you're a leader, it's like you don't expect those moments to come up. You didn't take on the file knowing that that would like these experiences, you can never expect what the experience is going to be. And I'm wondering, what was it like to hold that file during such a heavy period in our history? Yeah, thank you for the question. It was very difficult, and I'm sure the mayor of Abbotsford told you about some of the feelings that you have as a leader in significant portfolios when

there is crisis. I think, you know, for me, it happened in stages. You know, at the very beginning of the pandemic, I was a brand new health minister, had just been appointed. I was super excited, actually, in a large part because the public health agency of Canada would fall under my purview. So in the early stages, I would say that I felt a lot of fear about what was coming. And I probably was one of the people in the country that had, aside from immunologists who were, you know, and virologists who were watching this happen across the world,

I probably was one of the people that felt the most scared about what. what potentially could happen. But then when we were in the crisis of making rapid decisions in those early days and trying to manage the Canada's response, we did that collectively as a cabinet. I, of course, had a leadership role as a Minister of Health, but certainly wasn't alone. And thank goodness for that. There were many, many moving parts to Canada's response. But I would just say that I think whenever there's such a stressful crisis response that drags on,

in my case, I was a Minister of Health for well over two years. That is an extraordinarily life-changing experience. And I don't think I've ever been the same since. I think I've profoundly grown since that experience. And I've certainly done a lot of healing over the last couple of years. I've been the Minister of Digital Services for three years now. but it is something I'll never forget. And, you know, there were times, of course, where I wanted to quit.

I will say about 50% of, you know, roughly health ministers across the world either quit or got fired. And I was no different. There were times where I was exhausted and fearful and frustrated and I felt, you know, very demoralized. But what kept me going was I kept telling myself, I've been called to do this for some reason. I'm put into this position at this particular time in our history. and I cannot quit on my country.

And so I just kept going and dealt with each, I called them COVID chapters, each COVID chapter as they came. What were some of those lessons that you took away from that? What growing did you go through as a consequence of going through that in your life? Because I imagine there's a lot to learn. But for us who will likely never be in that position, it would be interesting to hear some of the lessons you took away from that. Well, that's a really good question.

And I think, you know, first of all, I would just say that one lesson that I took away from that was the need to, even in those moments when you're under, you know, incredible stress and pressure working, you know, 14, 16 hours a day with media attention, nonstop, relentless media attention is to be as centered as possible. And that does mean that you need to take time to recover. You know, there's a difference between a crisis that lasts a week or two weeks and then a crisis. crisis at last two years. And so for me, I had to develop systems of connecting with family, systems of being able to decompress and carve out, even if it was just a few hours for myself, to reflect and to grow, you know, more calm, actually, in between each kind of episode of COVID. You'll remember that at the beginning, we were evacuating people from Wuhan and putting people in quarantine in Canada and managing vast numbers of Canadians and trying to make sure that they were healthy and we could support them, any of them that did in fact have the virus. And later on, we were, you know, trying to procure medical PPE. And, you know, there were

many, many different twists and turns in COVID. And I think a big piece of that was me trying to stay as healthy as possible. I also used, you know, I had a number of different people that exterior from government that were there for me as mentors. And some of them were medical professionals and other were leaders that I trusted so that I could go to them and talk about not just practically what I should do in a situation, but also just from emotional perspective, how to get through whatever onslaught was happening. And then finally, I would just say that, you know, it's really important afterwards to have some time to reflect on, you know, what could have gone better. And, you know, I continue to hope that Canada will hold a public inquiry into the

COVID response. I know that this is something that our government has spoken about doing. And I think at some point, we will need to unpack how we can better ensure that the systems and structures that are designed to help manage these kinds of crises are really well equipped. Because part of the challenge I will, and I think this is well documented at the beginning, was that there were, you know, obviously layers of response, whether it was provincial response or federal response that, you know, intersected with each other. And many times roles got crossed about who was supposed to do what and who was best positioned to do the very extraordinary heavy lifting

of a variety of different needs that the country and that provinces and territories had. So I learned a lot. I think I'm a much calmer leader than I've ever been as a result of having to be calm for Canadians in times where there was so much uncertainty. This was a follow-up question I had. I'm a counselor for my First Nation community,

and you get feedback. Sometimes you can kind of see, well, like, maybe that person doesn't, like they just don't understand the system we're operating in. And so they're giving feedback, and you take that in in a respectful way. But how do you go about taking in information with people, maybe you disagree with

or people who don't have all the facts, but maybe there is a nugget, a kernel of information there that is useful. like obviously there were huge responses during this period people were scared, frustrated, livelihoods impacted. How do you try and take in information without obviously being overwhelmed, but also knowing they may not have all the information, but also you're willing to adapt and change to the circumstances and maybe they have a point there. How do you kind of balance taking in that information from a whole country of people who may have feedback on how you're doing things? Well, there were kind of trends in that as well. At the beginning, I think you'll remember people were, you know, painting my portrait in B.C. or sending presents to me from all over the country and really, I think, grateful for the leadership that Canada was showing, and especially in comparison to some of the other countries, even the one closest to us that was not responding in a similar way. But then people, as the crisis continued to drag on, there was frustration as well. I found what was useful was that each week I carved out time to do constituent.

calls. So my constituency was very busy, as you can imagine. And some of it was, you know, citizens from across the country, but others were right from my own neck of the woods in northern Ontario. And so every week I carved out time to call a number of constituents back. And I found those conversations, even when people were very upset or angry with the government, very, very helpful so that I could keep my pulse on what the average Canadian was thinking or feeling. I'll give you a good example during the time of prioritization of vaccination. There was so much fear. And everybody wanted to be first.

It seems like a fugue dream, doesn't it? Where we were fighting about being first to be vaccinated. But people were. And, you know, we followed the advice of something called the National Advisory Committee on Immunization. And they set out a schedule of who should be vaccinated first based on who was at most risk of dying from COVID. But some people felt that they should be prioritized over other people. the list. And I'll never forget this conversation that I had with an elder constituent in my writing who was very upset because there were some other people that were being vaccinated

before her, even though she had had her first dose. And so understanding her concern and listening to her concern really helped me formulate my communications in a way that could be more compassionate, in a way that could be more understanding, in a way that could actually reflect the fears of Canadians from a variety of different perspectives. So even though it was busy, even though I couldn't physically go into my office and meet with people, I still took those calls. And I'm so grateful to everyone who asked for those calls because oftentimes it helped me understand a piece of the communication that was so important to get across or

understand the kinds of fears and worries that were plaguing people on the ground in a day-to-day way. I think that's really important that you were able to stay connected because that's often the common criticism or challenge that federal leaders face is they're more disconnected than perhaps a municipal or provincial leader. So the fact that you were able to do that I think is really valuable. Then you move on to an even more challenging file, I would say, because it hits at the home of so many individuals and the challenges are daunting to say the least. And I'll say this personally. I asked Minister Gary Anansangre this question, but I don't think it's fair. I would say it's really challenging because it's very hard to hold space for successes or wins. And I say that because within my community, we've managed to repair 35 of 89 homes with the support of Indigenous Certivists, Canada,

in the two years that I've been serving as a council member. And I am incredibly happy about that accomplishment. I know that our members are living higher quality lives, that they're rising out of poverty because of that support. And now they're starting to see that their hydro bills are reduced because of some of those other supports that they can actually pay their bills that with properly designed homes, they actually experience energy efficiency savings that they actually have more money to take home. But it's hard for people to hold space for that because they felt like they deserved that 40 years ago, 30 years ago, 20 years ago. And so there's this challenge when you're a leader is I'm very proud of what we've been able to accomplish. But it's very hard to hold space for those successes. What was it like to take on this ministry?

Did you recognize that going into it, that it would be hard to kind of celebrate the wins or to have momentous moments? Because anytime you do anything, why couldn't you do 20% more? Why can you do 30% more? And so how did you take on that file? How did that feel? Why couldn't you do 20% or 30% more? I feel like it's the answer or the question you get in the media, no matter what you do in any file. It's always not fast enough, not good enough, or not enough money.

So that piece I was kind of used to, you know, I wasn't so worried about that. But what I did feel really, I felt a high degree of apprehension because this position is so colonial. And I actually spoke to my husband about it. And I said, you know, I don't know if I can do this job because it's really where the Indian Act lives. I mean, I am the minister responsible for the Indian Act. We apportion, as you know, you will fully know as a counselor what Indigenous Services Canada does. But for your listeners, it's all the things that go into municipal life. You can imagine the support, financial supports, come through the department. And we also have individual supports through the First Nations

Inuit Health Branch and many more other programs and streams of funding. But I felt that, and so I talked to my husband about that. And he said, you know, you're kind of fooling yourself. if you think that the other roles have a bit colonial. You know, like, it's like, it's not like you can just ignore that that one exists. And I laughed when he said that because he was right. I mean, you know, the entire system is extremely colonial. It's built on colonialism. And people don't like hearing that still.

I mean, non-Indigenous Canadians have a hard time understanding that the system itself is still colonial, that the government of Canada and other provinces and territories still have an an inordinate amount of control over the lives of indigenous peoples, and especially for first nations that are not wealthy or don't have natural resources to draw on or another source of revenue that can supplement what they receive from federal or provincial resources, mostly federal, but, you know, there are still some provincial sources as well. And so I sort of dove in, and, you know, the prime minister said something interesting to me when he appointed me, that gave me comfort and he said to me, I expect you to fight for indigenous people.

And I sent it back to him, the biggest fight we will have is with ourselves. So I'm willing to take that on, and I'm happy to do that work. And so I have had the support of the Prime Minister over the last three years. And have I got everything that I wanted all the time? Absolutely not. But have I moved the bar significantly? Yes. And I can tell you that, you know, we, as you know, have seen incredible.

And you would feel this as a counselor, incredible increases in a number of different funding, streams. We still have, you're right, an extraordinary long way to go. The infrastructure gap on First Nations is estimated at $360 billion in counting. You know, that's, I would say, a conservative estimate with small C, conservative estimate in terms of, you know, the gap. But we also have invested incredibly in indigenous communities, in indigenous priorities, in indigenous self-government, in a number of different spaces where First Nations leaders, I think, are starting to see that the government of Canada could be a partner in reconciliation for real. And so that has given me a lot of comfort.

And I think the other thing is I didn't come in brand new. I actually wonder about this now because I, you know, I come from Northern Ontario. I have a lot of First Nations and largely First Nations partners who I worked with for many years prior to politics that are, I would consider them friends and advisors, people like Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler from Nishinaabiyoski Nation, who, you know, is just an incredible supporter and never hesitates to either give me a word of encouragement or kick in the butt, whatever it is that he thinks I need. But the honesty, integrity of that relationship is very valuable to me.

And so, you know, this is a position of relationships. And relationship rests on truth. And so when we're talking about truth and reconciliation, it's not this broad principle. It is a broad principle. But it's also a truthful conversation as the minister with the community to say, I think I can do that. I think we can get to that place, but I don't think I can pull this one off. And here's why. And to be able to look communities in the eye and tell them the truth is the foundation of a better relationship.

And so when I think about these last three years, that's kind of how I've tried to govern myself as a minister, is someone that you're going to get the straight goods from. And if I don't think I can do the thing that you really want me to do, I'll give. you the limited options that I see. And of course, you know, First Nations have other options that I maybe can't see. But that for me is got to be the foundation of this work or else we can't get anywhere if people don't trust each other. And so I'm grateful to people like Alvin and others, David Paul Ashney Pineska from the Tawa. And so many people, you know, elders, elder Jerry Martin, who was the first person I called when I was appointed to say, oh my gosh, like,

what do I do with this? And people have been so kind. and so encouraging and so motivating that it's been the honor of a lifetime. But it isn't without a lot of pain. And I do think that that is a very real part of this job. This is my big call to action for my fellow leaders in indigenous communities is I think it's time for a somewhat of a dialogue shift. And perhaps you might disagree. But I think from what I experienced, I joined September 2020.

onto my council. I took on the housing portfolio, which, as you can imagine, is one of the most challenging. And I do think that sort of tongue-in-cheek the council gave it to me because they saw this, oh, this guy thinks he might have some things figured out. We'll give him the tough portfolio. But we've been able to accomplish so much. 35 homes are repaired out of 89. We did a housing strategy through Indigenous Services Canada funding that gave us guidance on where we needed to go and how we wanted to get there. We were just approved in September for 31. new units a five unit elders lodge from bc housing which is valued at approximately 32 million dollars over the course of the whole investment and people are starting to rise out of poverty have more affordable homes to live in and this is all to me possible and we weren't chasing after these dollars before i came on and that's not i'm not some expert these dollars are on the table and i do think that when we talk about this infrastructure gap absolutely you and and everybody at the federal level has a role to play. But we as indigenous communities, I think, also need to start to step up and say, what are we doing? How are we making these improvements? Are we going

after every dollar we can? Are we making sure we're accountable for these things? And I think that's a growing curve that all First Nation communities and Méti communities are going through. But I think that's an important part of the conversation. And what I see right now is that's a very uncomfortable thing for people to have to say, is that there's two parties. When you talk about, like, if you're working with the municipality, you're allowed to say, hey, the municipality has a role to play to and we hope that they come to the table in a good way. And I think it's fair now to say that for all First Nation community that I've been working with other ones trying to support them so they can reach their housing goals so they can improve their infrastructure. The dollars are out there.

You have to find them and sometimes you have to get creative and sometimes you have to be patient, but it's a process that we can start to go through now too. And so I was very much looking forward to this interview because I wanted you to know that. I wanted you to know that at the ground level. We have similar goals, similar objectives, and we're getting there. And I have a lot of hope seeing my counterparts in other First Nation communities starting to say like, hey, we can do this. We can take this on. And I know that when you're managing this at the high level, political organizations are giving you feedback. It's not fast enough. How are you going to get to that 2030 target? But I also want you to know that we're seeing a lot of those investments take place.

And it really is changing people's lives at the front end. And we can always talk about their areas of improvement but i think it's important when you're holding these types of files when you're holding the crown indigenous file and like when when people are in those roles that we do see it at the front end things are improving things are moving in the right direction and i would say that it's the only perhaps tragedy i see within the political lens is we're not talking much about the successes we're still we're very much focused on these challenges do you see that are you allowed to say that are you allowed to feel that way as well You're right. You know, it's an interesting, it's a really interesting space you're talking about because, you know, you have to, I think, as the colonial partner, not, you know, you don't want to be placing blame on partner, you know, on partners, right? I mean, look, there is pain, there's trauma and there's dysfunction as well as a result of colonial practices that did actually disrupt, you know, a longstanding governance of First Nations and of indigenous people in general. But what I can tell you,

is that when a community has that self-determination, that they are going to get better and whatever way that looks, and it looks different in different communities, different communities approach it differently, they have different priorities. Yes, I bet you the beginning feels pretty muddy, you know, when it's all very chaotic and there's not a lot of structure. But that's why I think things like the Financial Management Board that the federal government funds to support communities that are really struggling, to get their governance in order, to get their financial matters in order

is so important because at the end of the day, what we, I think, are all striving for is self-determination so that the government of Canada has an obligation and a fiduciary duty according to treaties and other organizations, and ideally, increasingly, those fiscal transfers are negotiated between parties, but that also the First Nation,

nobody can do it for the First Nation. The First Nation must do it themselves. It's sort of the cruel irony of colonialism is that the only person who knows or people who know how to fix it are actually the people themselves. You know, Paulo Frere wrote this and the pedagogy of the press, and I didn't understand it when I was young. I didn't really get it as I was studying it as a young undergrad, you know, student doing my BA. But now I actually do.

How could I possibly know what your First Nation needs in order to succeed? How could I possibly tell you how you can get yourself out of whatever situation it is that your community is facing? What I do have a responsibility to do, though, is to be there with you truthfully in a space where I can say, this can happen, this I'm not so sure about, this we're going to have to fight like hell for. Those are actual truly authentic conversations that then give people actually choice. You know, I often say in the community, if you have the truth, then you can choose.

You can choose to, you know, pursue that option. You can choose to abandon that option. You can choose to sue the government. But at least you have choice. And the choice comes from a truthful conversation. And increasingly what we're seeing is that communities are, you know, saying we know what we need and we do know the way forward. And, you know, a really wise chief taught me that when I first started running, Duncan Machano from Bitagong, it used to be called Pick River. They have their own name, traditional name now.

And Duncan, I asked him that one day, you know, in my writing as its current formation, there's 12 First Nations. And I said to Duncan, how is it that B2Gong is doing so well? They have so many B2Gong members that live in the community. They are road access, to be sure, but they live in the community. They are the teachers, the nurses, the construction workers, the water operators, like, how come? And he said, you know, 40, probably be 50 years now.

He said 50 years ago, we decided we were going to put children and children's education at the forefront. And every little extra dollar we had, we put into the education of our kids. And he said, this was cancel, you know, then. And this is still our attitude as a community. And so we prioritize the education of our children. And we take what we can get from government and we supplement it with every little extra bit of money we can because we know that when BTAGong members are strong, they'll come back

and keep rebuilding. And it's just such a powerful story, I think. I love that because that's exactly what I did. I was my First Nation community with the support of Indigenous Services Canada, allowed me to get my undergraduate degree, get my law degree, and then immediately I wanted to go and serve within the community and give back those opportunities, back to the community, offer my knowledge and any experiences I have.

I have a couple more quick questions for you. I'm hoping you can share your perspective. Obviously, we get the news version of stories. what were the problems with the Indigenous Business Registry from your perspective? Is there a story there? Of course you've had a Cabinet Minister recently stepped down. But how do you, when you read it,

what are we missing out of this story? Yeah, well, first I'd just like to sort of put the Mr. Bwassano piece aside because his piece is not at all related to the Indigenous Business Registry, although I can see why it's been conflated. People are putting the two together. Yeah, people are putting the two things together. But his business was not on the registry at all. although I think, you know, there's been lots of conversation about his indigenity,

and it's a very uncomfortable space, I think, for indigenous people to be under a microscope about, you know, who's indigenous or not and why. And I said, it is a vestige of colonialism. And the list itself is a weirdly a vestige of colonialism, but also supposed to be a tool. And so we find ourselves as a country in these weird spaces where this government under Justin Trudeau has said, we should have procurement targets. So indigenous-owned businesses can actually benefit from the spending of the government of Canada. How do we do that?

Well, we should have a list of businesses that the federal government can go to to say these businesses are certified as indigenous. And so the department works with the businesses to ensure that if they are First Nation, that they have all the appropriate paperwork and where do they belong and how are they First Nation. Of course, there's, you know, Métis and Inuit companies as well. And the challenge with that is again, you know, defining who is indigenous and who gets to define who's indigenous. And yet that is important when there's benefits attached to being indigenous. And it's interesting, you know, I don't think 20 or 30 years ago when I was, how old am I now? Okay, so 40 years ago when I was 17, people weren't pretending to be indigenous. It wasn't really a sexy thing in 1984 to be like, I'm indigenous, you know,

because there wasn't really a social benefit and there wasn't any kind of financial benefit. And increasingly what we're seeing is that people, well guided or not, maybe because of ulterior motives, maybe because of misinformation on their own branch, you know, a lot of people have sort of urban legends about indigenous people in their families are, you know, stepping into the space because they feel that it's far less stigmatizing. This is kind of good in a way, right? But also, a problem because what we don't want to see is people taking advantage of, you know, programs that are specifically designed to help support, in this case, businesses that have been disadvantaged and excluded from a normal procurement process simply because of, in many cases, indigenous

and lack of scope. And so we're working right now on the business directory. The best case scenario is that it is an individual or sorry, an indigenous business organization. that takes over the list and that does its own process of verification. You know, it would be nice to see the federal government increasingly get out of the space of defining who is and isn't indigenous, but we also have to do so respectfully. And right now, I will say that there has been a working group on how to do that, and there isn't consensus yet about how to move forward. So in the meantime, we will continue to audit the list as companies change or grow or ad

directors or divest themselves, all of course, all of that changes whether or not the business is indigenous, you know. And so it's, it's, it's, it's unfortunately sort of being utilized by opponents as if they actually care about the indigenous business directory. And yet I think it is in some ways a backdoor attack on diversity and equity initiatives that actually really enrich all of the country. You know, I always say this in my last statement on this is when indigenous business owners succeed, the entire region succeeds. Thunder Bay is undergoing right now an economic development study in partnership with a number of indigenous business associations and the city to determine the economic impact positively

of indigenous people in Thunder Bay. And it's in the millions and millions of dollars. So we're shooting ourselves in the foot if we don't think of ways that we ensure that indigenous business succeeds because it's a huge piece of growing Canada's GDP. Interesting. Last major question is there's a lot of discussion right now around banning Indian residential school denialism. Do you have any thoughts on Bill C-143? Any reflections on that? Well, I can see the foundation of why that bill has been proposed. I mean, ultimately at the end of the day, it's extremely hurtful to individuals, especially individuals with an experience in

residential school, which is many, if not most, individuals in this country, indigenous, sorry, First Nations, indigenous people in this country. And so I understand the motive behind it. The government's still studying that bill to see whether or not, and it, of course, it's not even in debate yet, but eventually the government will decide about whether it supports the bill or not, and whether or not there's other legislation that, you know, is duplicative, for example. We do have hate speech laws in this country. Are they enough? So, you know, ultimately at the end of the day, I would say stay tuned for a decision from the government. But what I would say that the government agrees with is that the experience of denialism is very painful for people that are, you know, mourning the loss of their family, mourning the impact of their parents and the experience of their parents on their own lives.

there's just so much loss and grief in this space that, you know, what I hope is that Canadians increasingly want to understand and be compassionate to the healing journey that First Nations people are on. I couldn't agree more. My personal perspective, as I mentioned to the Minister of Crown Indigenous Affairs, was that I believe it's very important that we advocate for this from a free speech lens. I've had the pleasure of, of speaking with Candace Malcolm, many of the authors of this book grave error, and I've debated them. I've disagreed with them. I've argued with their points. I've explained to them what they're missing on their points because I think particularly like I don't think there was as much denialism until these 215 unmarked graves. And I think there is space to say there are some questions because we're deciding whether or not we want to pull these bodies out or or go through that process. And so we leave ourselves vulnerable. If we choose not

to do that. We have to be willing to come to the table and have conversations about why we're doing that and whether or not we need other people to be convinced by us and what position we want to have. But when we start to make laws, again, I think I agree with you. I think there's likely laws already on the books in this regard that will cover this. But I want to be able to have those conversations with people. I want to be able to go through them with them and help them understand rather than trying to hold them accountable through another lens. And that's just my personal perspective. And I think it's a really important one to consider because I think what we don't want is more polarization in this country. What we really want is we want people to actually embrace each other in

communities. We might not all like each other. We might not all understand each other. But ultimately, the challenges of the day, whether it's climate change or changing economy or increased, you know, military or a conflict around the world, military activity, like challenges are here for us. And I think for Canadians, what I'd like to see, is a way that we actually pulled together. And the way that we pulled together is to try to listen to each other. You know, there are spaces, I think,

that can be much more productive than fighting each other about, you know, to your point, you know, whether or not the, you know, the unmarked graves are, this is a very sensitive topic. Should they be, should they be exhumed or not? That's not a decision for me.

me to make. That's a decision for the community to make. And they're agonizing over that decision. And I can tell you, communities are agonizing over those decisions for a host of reasons. But for me, the most helpful thing for Canadians to do is to try to listen to each other and get to know each other so that we can actually have these conversations about, you know, yeah, about not whether or not those 215 disturbances are grave, but the true terror and horror that residential school is inflicted on families, regardless of whether or not those disturbances are graves or not, the reality is that the residential school existed. And it damaged people profoundly. Some people did die. Some people were scarred irreparably. And some second generation

children, you know, have grown up with parents that were stripped of the ability to express love and joy and physical touch. Like, that in itself is a tragedy. So I think we're getting a little, you know, we're getting a little consumed in a way on one aspect of residential schools at the expense of really understanding the whole story, which is this is a terrible, terrible thing that happened in our country. Agreed.

My grandmother, Rita P, went to St. Mary's Indian residential school, and she faced all forms of trauma. there. My mother was a part of the 60 scoop and she was born with fetal alcohol syndrome disorder as a consequence of her mother using alcohol to cope with that abuse. And I'm the first to be able to start to unweave and unravel some of that trauma and hopefully bring a better world. But I am so grateful to have an individual like yourself in the position you're in. I think that's incredibly important. I'm glad that your husband made that comment and I'm glad Prime Minister Justin Trudeau encouraged you to take this on and work alongside you on this because I really do feel like you're a very very good person for this position, which is an incredibly heavy role. I really appreciate you being willing to take the time to share some of that story today. Can you please tell people how they can keep up with your work? Yes. Well, you can follow along. There are a number of websites and web pages that have my name attached to it that you can follow along. And of course, I have an Instagram and a Facebook and all of those things. And we do try to communicate as

frequently as possible about all of the things that the department is doing. So, Erin, I just want to congratulate you on what you're doing as well. I know you're running short of time, but it's no easy task to recover from family legacy and trauma. And although my story is a bit different than yours, I too have a story of, you know, being raised by people that were not my birth parents. And so I just want you to know that I know that that journey is difficult and painful. And thank you for doing it and being where you are now, leading your community. It's just such a, it's just so, it's so It's so heartwarming, actually, to see you do what you're doing. It's an honor to be able to play that role.

On behalf of my community, Chihuahua First Nation, I'd like to thank you and your team for the work you do to make sure that indigenous communities are able to access these fundings because we are benefiting from that. I appreciate you. All the best. And thank you again for joining. Take care, Narpa. Bye-bye.

Thank you.