Nuanced. - 186. Harrison Lowman: Trudeau’s Legacy, Poilievre’s Rise & Canadian Media

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

Harrison Lowman, Managing Editor of The Hub, speaks with Aaron Pete about Canada’s shifting media landscape, Justin Trudeau’s legacy, Pierre Poilievre’s rise, and the challenges facing the country. They explore journalism’s role in shaping public discourse, media subsidies, and why conservative perspectives are gaining traction.Send us a textThe "What's Going On?" PodcastThink casual, relatable discussions like you'd overhear in a barbershop....Listen on: Apple Podcasts   SpotifySupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger Than Me podcast. Here is your host, Aaron P. The media landscape is changing and fast. Many news organizations are trying new models and new approaches to reaching Canadians. I'm speaking with the managing editor of The Hub, an online news outlet, about Justin Trudeau, Pierre Polyev, journalism, and the future of Canada. My guest today is Harrison Lohman. Harrison, it is an honor to have you on the show. We have talked behind the scenes a lot about our perspectives and how we come to them.

And I'm grateful for you to be able to join the show today. Would you mind first introducing yourself? Aaron, the honor is all mine. I've followed your story for quite some time. Who am I? I am Harrison Loman. I'm a journalist. I'm the managing editor of a news and commentary website called the hub.

can we first start off with you're a journalist and i'm wondering how you digest information a lot has gone on over the past six months to to process and digest and a lot has risen the risen to the zeitgeist in my in my opinion like the christia freeland resignation that really reached people and there's a lot to take in how do you go about processing that information i think Being part of this industry, you know, being devoted to journalism, it's a blessing and a curse, right? Because the membrane between what you're interested in and what your work is is very thin. There's a lot of overlap. And I've caught myself shaking my head often when I've come home from work.

And on my break, I'm watching a Christia Freeland speech. And you start thinking, what the heck is wrong with me? This is some sort of strange addiction. I should be on like a TLC show. of some sort. How do I consume information? I have ADHD, so it's quite easy. I'm constantly on Twitter. I'm, you know, I'm listening to podcasts. I'm reading everything I can find. I'm talking to as many people as possible. And that all congeals into a giant blob. And then I get to sort of form of opinions on that and understand, how should the hub be approaching this? As a small,

you know, small to medium size outlet, how can we, you know, against the big boys, take things from a different angle and offer some sort of new perspective on, you know, the issues facing the country, which are numerous, as you know. What would you describe as the top stories we're facing right now? I think that I was talking to Margaret McMillan, who's a famous Canadian historian a few days ago. And we basically came to the conclusion together that the last 30 plus years or so, you know, that's around our age, I think, Aaron, of relative stability are like an anomaly in world history. History is usually chaotic. And I think Canada, a country that has thrived on stability in the, you know, a world order that involved institutions where a, you know, a world order that involved institutions where a,

mediatory middle power like ourselves could make deals and, you know, rely off of our friendship with world superpowers. I think that's, a lot of it's up in the air. I think those world superpowers care less and less about us. And they would say that over the last few years, we've not been pulling our weight. And I think one of the big issues for Canada is we're like playing catch-up in a variety of places, whether that's domestic issues like inter-provincial trade or the fact that we are just millions and millions of dollars behind when it comes to spending on defense and defending ourselves. We've been relying on others. So we're, I don't know, it feels like we're shrugging as a nation right now. We don't know where our place in the

world is. We realized that the fortress walls we had around us might not be as high and as fortified as we thought they once were. And at the same time, and I think Trump is capitalizing on this, we've spent the last few years looking inwardly, feeling guilty, and it's impacted our national pride so uh internally i don't know not the most unified as we meet all these challenges which kind of concerns me you said looking inwardly feeling guilty what are you referring to this is stuff we've talked a lot about right erin like it's always about filing balance right like one of the things we don't want to do at the hub is be like rage baity and uh black and white and uh you know ignore what are real chapters in Canadian history, but it just seems like, and a lot of this being led by

the, you know, prime minister that's currently on his, on his way out, that the focus has been on like, what have Canadians done wrong in their history, that we should emphasize those things, those should float up to the top. And what was initially, you know, when we were younger, an ignorance towards Canadian history, a lot of us, you know, would say objectively, it's pretty boring, has also been met with, okay, we'll, you know, we'll then teach it to you, but we'll teach it, you know, almost exclusively from a negative perspective as it relates to have we treated certain groups, including indigenous groups like you and I have talked about over the years. I just think that, you know, some sort of perspective is needed. And, yeah, we could use a little

bit of that these days it feels like and i'd like your opinion on this metaphor that perhaps Canadians have fallen asleep over the past 30 years to what our role is what our values are and how to how to be a proud of a lot of those pieces and now this news button doesn't work anymore we're waking up we're realizing that action strong leadership is needed and we're scrambling to to figure those pieces out now that we're awake. How do you feel about that metaphor? So I'm like somewhat of a patriot and I'm all for the symbolism and the waves of, you know,

Canadian pride we're seeing sweep across the country now. But for me, Aaron, it has to be grounded in something. Like, otherwise it's meaningless. It's like saying you're Catholic and then going to church for like Christmas one day a year. Um, like, you have to do something with that. Um, when, when we talk about coming together, uh, what does this mean? It's like getting actually involved in your community. Uh, it, it means, uh, donating your time and money to charities in Canada. It means, you know, helping your fellow

man or woman, uh, you know, in your neighborhood. Um, it involves teaching others, you know, about Canadian history, about Canadian values. Um, it can't. just be what's going to be, you know, happening in the next few days. We're going to have flag day. A bunch of people would be waving flags and people will buy more like Canadian soup at the grocery store. It's like, I don't know what that is. One of the things that frustrates me most about, you know, identity politics is that so much of it is just gesturing. It doesn't mean anything. It's just a photo op. And at the end of the day, you're not really doing anything. You're not doing the hard work, which is ironic because, you know, I have a lot

of these people who are into the identity politics stuff talk about like doing the work it's like you okay you should be actually doing the work and you know i'll pat you on the back here because i think you're an example of someone who literally does the work it's like oh i i care about my first nation and like the struggles these people are going through um you know what does that mean it makes making sacrifices in your own life it means it means like being selfless and you know instead of going out for uh dinner with your girlfriend on a friday night uh you're answering the frantic cell phone calls of someone in your community whose basement is flooded. That's what it means to actually do the work.

There's my little rant for you. I love that. I think we're under a time where we're really thinking about leaders and what it means to be a leader. And we have these moments that we get a glimpse of what it means to be a leader. The standout one for a lot of people is Trump being shot in the ear or having a fragment hit his ear. And actually standing up in and saying fight, fight, fight. like regardless of how you feel about the man that's that's a statement of leadership you can't make that up that's not scripted that's not planned despite what uh some interesting people have to say

that is uh real could you describe justin trudeau prime minister justin trudeau from your perspective what is this that um uh in terms of leadership like did you want me to tell you first what what i think you know what is impressive about it or where i like about him and then potentially give me a description of your understanding of who he is um i think uh he's someone who at the end of the day got to where he was because of his last name i think he's someone who is uh extremely empathetic and cares uh about what he does but i i just don't think he's think he's a politician of substance necessarily. The sense I got from speaking to folks who spoke to folks within his administration is that he saw and sees the role of prime minister

as being sort of like a mascot or figurehead, right? I don't think he's someone who's up late at night flipping through policy books and is really sweating over the numbers. He's someone in a lot of ways he's someone that's interested in that you know you know symbolic gestures appearances um how how he's perceived by the media how he looks in the media um yeah but again I'll hear I'll give him some praise too I think you know he's proved himself he looks like he's he's a great dad uh he um you I don't think we can say he didn't when it came to issues about climate change, you know, drinking water on indigenous First Nations. You can't say that, like, he didn't care about the people involved in this stuff and that were hurt by this stuff.

But in terms of his tenure, I don't know, I'm not, you know, let's make this a conversation. Like, what do you think he'll be remembered for in the next, you know, over the last 10 years? What do you think are sort of the, you know, the major things that stand out? The major thing that stands out for me has been and will be his action on reconciliation on the issues you just described. From my perspective and from everything I've heard, this has been an opportunity over the last 10 years for First Nations who actually want to address the issues that they talk about, an opportunity to do so and actually have the funding in order to reach some of those goals. And my community is just an example of that, 35 out of 89 homes with significant investments in renovations, funding available to develop more housing, more water systems, upgrade water very quickly. We have received that support, and our process in negotiations has been smoother than from what my understanding is under the Harper era. So that's my standout piece.

That's why I was interested in speaking with Minister Gary Anansangre. Minister Patty Heidu is understanding that piece because I don't feel like that part of his platform is getting any light. And I think in part that is because of the mass grave story. Okay, so that's that. And then, you know, we look at like his economic management of the country. We look at, you know, we talked about the nation's sort of perception of itself. We look at Canada's standing on the world stage and the assertion that he made when he came in that Canada was back. again, whatever that meant, you know, going to New York, making this grand gesture,

and then it's followed by, you know, not so much doing the work as we discussed. So definitely you can say, and you and I remember when Gordaunni stepped forward before he passed away and he said, like, if there's any prime minister that's going to bring first, bring indigenous issues to the forefront, it's going to be this guy. And maybe we, you know, we look back and in the textbooks like 20 years from now, you know, that's next to his name in the chapter about Justin Trudeau that at the very least he brought um you know indigenous issues to the forefront obviously you can then argue about um to what extent he's improved the lives of indigenous people and you and i have talked about um even like i think

where you guys are in bc like life expectancy of indigenous folks and the the you know what's happened there on his tenure this kind of stuff um incarceration etc so that these are the things i worry about Like, how do we, you know, substantive change? How do we think about Pierre Pollyev? He's a name growing. Many are touting him as the next Prime Minister of Canada. How do you see him? What are your perspectives on him?

He's been someone that's been involved in politics this whole life. He wrote an essay when he was a very young guy, and he talked about what he'd do if he was prime minister. he actually won an award for it and was uh you know went down to ottawa as a result um so he's been like deeply immersed in politics for uh his his whole life i think he very much took advantage of like a uh you know center right uh populist wave that we've seen sort of surging across the western uh world and cat and uh you know is riding that wave and um has a lot of, and this is, you know, an interesting development, has a lot of blue-collar working

class Canadians who see themselves and him, or at least see him as like a voice for them. That's a new thing, right? To have, like, you know, workers, potentially union members, you know, voting conservative. I think another exceptional thing is that you're seeing, like, young people vote conservative or consider voting conservative. you know he gets criticized for like what we call the cut of his jib right like he's unapologetic he's aggressive when it comes to speaking to members of the media i think to a certain extent erin if you're going to be like a kind of populist center right leader in the west these days

um you need to you need to voice some of the anger that is in that base that you're sort of representing. But yeah, one of the critiques that it gets launched in him is like whether he has another gear that's a bit more serious when it comes to being like statesman-like. So we're going to see, and I don't mean to date your episode here, but in the next few days, the Conservative Party is realizing the ballot question has changed from cost of living and going after Justin Trudeau, carbon tax, et cetera, to more about, you know, affordability plus the future of the U.S. trade relationship and the future of the Canadian economy as a result. So we're going to see Mr. Polyev like change tack, and maybe he'll take a tonal change as well

with that. To follow up, you kind of described the cut of his jib. I'm thinking that might be some sort of alignment with a more masculine presence. There's that video of Justin Trudeau reacting to a labor worker making comments like, what the hell are you doing for me? And Justin Trudeau, I think, offers him a donut or something like that. And it just, the response was underwhelming to the pressure and the questions that that person was asking. He's like, how is dental care going to help me?

I can't afford to go buy groceries. how is this going to fix my issue and justin trudeau was like well you're welcome to like have a donut or it was something along those lines that wasn't a substantive policy discussion when pierre pauliev has been pressured the reaction is more assertive a bit more masculine a bit more willing to push back and get into a debate right on the spot and that seems to be a space in which he's much more comfortable than justin trudeau is getting into a bit of a debate based on substance not based on, I guess some would say that he's more of a slogan person, but he's able to respond very quickly to things.

How do you process that more masculine element of Pierre Pollyev? Look at him. He's gotten, like, jacked over the last few months. Like, it's pretty self-evident, and he's wearing these tight shirts and he's got the aviators on. You know, I would say it's two things, right? It's weird. You got the sloganeering part, and he is probably the most on-message politician that Canada's

ever seen. This guy is doing, like, radio hits that are seven minutes long, and in every answer, he's repeating, you know, acts, the tax, build the home, stop the crime, fix the budget. Like, it's wild. It must be working to a certain extent if he keeps doing it. So you got those slogans, but then you also got these long, like, mini-docs, right, about, like, debt in Canada. He just released another one on his plan for the Canadian North. again, Aaron, like, because conservatives have been out of power for 10 years now, there's like a beat, there's like a buildup of frustration.

So they're waiting for someone who, for example, you know, does an interview on the CBC and when they're asked what he considers to be a biased question, he like calls it out to their face. And they, you know, some people would say it feels like owning the libs and that's satisfying. But it's so gratifying to folks who feel like they haven't been represented in the mainstream media and have been, you know, forced to see the same people in front of the cameras for many, many years and the same issues covered. And it feels good when they have a leader that calls that out.

Now, that's, you know, these are the tricks of the trade when it comes to being leader of the official opposition and, you know, you know, beating back against the opposition. You know, he'll have to extend the tools in his toolkit when it comes to potentially being prime minister right it's a whole different ballgame and as soon as you become prime minister you're in charge of just it's hard to even describe the mammoth amount of like departments and bureaucrats and ministers and files and there's just so much that can go wrong and you've got to wrap your arms around all that and do the best you can when it comes to managing that and it's a tough job for anyone uh i think he's pretty relentless in terms of how

he's prepared to do that. And I know for a fact that he's got a team of folks sort of furiously writing policy over in Ottawa right now. But yeah, it will be, you know, it's going to be a different job title with a different set of skills required should he get that top job. Jordan Peterson, in an interview a while back, talked specifically about how one of the mistakes the conservatives made through Aaron O'Toole, Andrew Shear, during that period, was that they conceded the grounds on what the key issues were. For example, reconciliation was considered a key issue, and perhaps that isn't where the conservatives should have conceded the ground on the debate stage, that that was a key issue that needed a proportional amount of time to the

economy or to the housing issues to cede that ground, cost them the election, because they weren't able to talk about the issues they would have rather discussed. Do you think there's any merit to that argument? Like specifically on reconciliation or? Climate change would be another one where that was a significant piece of the debate discussion and perhaps conservatives ceded ground by allowing that to be a key priority of the discussion during that period. By agreeing to those terms that those were the key topics, they may have cost themselves

the election because that is an issue that they want to be talking about. They have other issues they'd prefer to be focused on. It's funny now, right, that, like, back then, like, climate change, sorry, the carbon tax was this, like, center, it was this ruby at the center of the crown where it came to, you know, climate change policy. It's like if you didn't have a carbon tax, then you weren't beating back climate change. I think, like, you obviously have to have some sort of a plan, and you can't be seen as, like, ignoring some of these issues for the conservatives on the indigenous issue specifically, I think, and you're seeing it now, like, it's about, like, autonomy and self-governance and the ability for First Nations folks to, like, be able to extract, handle, et cetera, their own resources. I think that's, like, a response from the modern conservative party you're seeing to what you're seeing to what you're. you just described? So they're like, how can we approach indigenous issues, but in our own unique way that's different from the other parties that distinguishes us from them? Because, you know, going in, yeah, there's this perception, I guess, specifically as it relates to climate

change and indigenous issues that, like, conservatives don't care. That's very low on their priority list. You know, it helps them now, not on the indigenous issues. I think, you know, people are still thinking about this. But when it comes to really focusing on climate change and making that the issue you're voting on, I think for most voters as a result of the affordability crisis and the trade stuff, it drops further and further down on their priority list. So I guess that helps the conservatives in some way. In the media right now, one piece that I just don't know how to grapple with, and I think a lot of Canadians are in this boat, we hear comments from Pierre Pollyev about Jagmeet Singh's pension and that that's one of the reasons he's making a lot of

the political decisions he's making. How should the general public process that discussion? I don't know. I think it's a it's a bit of a bit of a side show. I think the more intelligent criticism of Jagmeet Singh is like, you know, when the dust settles here and we come out the other side of this election and he's like eviscerated. The NDP thinks about, did we make a deal with the devil? Like, you know, there's NDPers that would say as a result of the supplying confidence agreement, we were able to push through, you know, on major issues like pharmaceuticals and dental care, etc. You know, the response back to that is like, okay, how many people did this actually help? you propped up a government for years as the result of doing this.

You didn't ask for any, like, formal roles in, like, a coalition government where you occupied, like, cabinet postings, et cetera. And it meant that, like, you actually weren't legitimately seeking power. You were just hoping to, like, influence from the sidelines. For years now, that the NDP's been trying to push away from this idea that they're, like, the conscience of parliament, that they are actually a serious political party that's aim is to like, you know, have a prime minister, a federal, a prime minister. But I think, again, once the dust settles, they're really going to have to, I don't know, wrestle with the fact that in making that deal, they basically, you know, it hurt them because they were then seen as being like partners with the liberals.

And then, you know, I think it's going to hurt their chances than next elections. They're going to have to potentially revisit that. Can you tell us about the hub? How did it start? What is its background? Sure. So the hub is, we're celebrating our four-year anniversary. It actually was founded during COVID, which is wild.

Say it? Yeah. Things were birthed amongst the pandemic. Beautiful things. It's a place for intelligent, you know, reasonable center rights. thought, analysis, news. But when I say news, I mean, the selection of topics would be what someone potentially, you know, on the center rate is interested in. But, you know, we're going to play it straight in terms of the coverage. Like, I think one of the problems here is, like, you

know, so much trust has been lost when it comes to journalism in this country. It's important to sort of play it down the line when you're reporting on news. So I'll put that caveat there. A lot of people ask me, Aaron, they're like, why have we seen, like, you know, center-right outlets pop up over the last few years, whether it be like the line or us? And my response to them is because mainstream media leans left. So, you know, people who are interested in folks on the issues on the right being covered or folks on the right being sort of platformed, they don't really have a place to go. So it leaves opportunities for places like us to sort of pop up. Another thing we're interested in, and this is a problem that you see in Senate of Right Circles is like, you know, someone phrased it to me as like there's often commentary from

like frothing boomers who are like, you know, old man yells at cloud is the Simpsons analogy that you might know. And I'm less interested in that. I want to hear from young voices like yourself and, you know, you've been featured in the hub about people who will actually be alive for the changes that they're being. proposed and the next version of Canada we discussed. Canada's facing all these issues. When we come out the other end, how many of the people sort of complaining about it and just saying it's broken are going to be around to even be there to pick up the pieces. So we're there to offer like

deep analysis. I come from a current affairs background at the agenda with Steve Paken. We're driven by policy and data. You know, we're patriotic. But at the same time, you know, we don't approach everything's from sort of a black and white angle. And we also don't believe in media subsidies, which we can get into. I don't think people realize that, you know, we don't just have the CBC and public broadcasters like that in TVO, but increasingly under the Trudeau government, the private outlets have been propped up by a variety of different subsidies, whether they be payroll subsidies or different programs. And from our perspective, we think that impacts trust. it also stunts innovation right if you're just being if you have this uh this if you're a hamster

and you have a machine that's just feeding you pellets and you don't have to go find your own meal and uh you know have creative destruction see what works see what doesn't be rewarded for your readers for doing things that do work um i think that's going to harm the industry and then you know once that hand that feeds is taken away likely by a conservative government that's not interested in the What happens then, Aaron? You know, the whole ground collapses underneath you, and we have, like, extinction level events in Canadian media. So that's what I'm worried about.

What are center-right issues? What are center-right issues? I think you'd see people being interested. These are things that I, you know, having worked here just for over a year, became further exposed to. And there are issues that, you know, when I worked in mainstream media, I thought, why the heck aren't we looking at this more? So issues around history and patriotism, issues around fertility, what's going on with Canada's

fertility rate? Why don't we talk about like families, family formation and the fact that, you know, Canadians is having less and less kids, looking at immigration levels, again, respectfully without dipping into like bigotry and racism, just like legitimately raising the fact that, you know, we've seen the temporary foreign workers program skyrocket. We've seen international student numbers skyrocket. And like, you know, we speak to demographers. We speak to statisticians.

I'm like just putting those numbers out in the open free of like the racism I just described. I think those are certain issues. We have a bunch of lawyers that write for us and aren't the biggest fans of the charter or the Supreme Court. and having unelected officials make decisions for the populace rather than elected officials. I think that's something else that we look at. So that's just sort of a taste of, I think, sort of beats that you'd see in the page of the hub.

Can you walk me through some of the writers that you work with and what stands out about their perspectives that make it unique from a traditional newspaper? Sure. So I would preface this all by saying, like, media, and maybe I'm, being a utopian think you're here. But media should be like a smorgasbord, right? Like, you should be consuming stuff on the left, stuff on the right, more centrist stuff, and then putting that all together and coming out with your opinion.

The problem is that we're- In a hub-type fashion. Yes, yes. And I say this at the same time in that, like, you know, we will, you know, I make an effort to feature people that aren't just, you know, of the center right, that you should be, you know, exposed to different ideas and have your ideas, uh, challenge. It shouldn't just be, um, you shouldn't just be affirmed all the time. Um, let me, do you want some stories that we've recently been looking at or? Absolutely. Sure. So like, uh, you know, we, we, we had to confront

the fact a few weeks ago that there's a subset of the, um, of conservative voters that are Trump fans. Um, Either they're like fans of the guy or fans of his issue, fans of the issues interested in. And they're having a real problem. And we had an article written by Spencer Fernando, who's, you know, a Canadian conservative who basically said, like, the time is now. If you're Canadian conservative, you know, you need to abandon Trump because all that stuff you like about Trump is coming up against the fact that this guy wants to annex our country is potentially invoking massive tariffs that will, like, destroy our economy. So he wrote an op-but on that that got a lot of attention. What else did we look at? We spoke to David Coletto, who's a pollster, and he had, often it's boring to look at polls there. And so we instead had him create something that the

conservatives did many years ago, where you know, you create voter profiles to get a sense of like, who are still interested in voting for the liberals at this point in time? And he put together these like characters, you know, through all his various statistical surveys. And he came up with Laura Lynn, a 73-year-old widow living in Scarborough, Sophie, a young unmarried lawyer living in downtown Montreal, and described to us, you know, their personalities and what their priorities were. And I think that, you know, that helped give our readers a sense of like who the liberal voters were these days, rather than looking at some cold, hard data. We've looked, extensively through at, you know, this is exclusive data through an economist out in Alberta

called Trevor Toom. He broke down like how much Canada stands to lose as the result of these tariffs and through our countermeasures. I think that's been huge. So yeah, that's sort of a little. There's your smorgasbord of hub articles over the last few days, Aaron. When somebody reaches out to you, who's a writer with the hub, who are the individuals, you get excited to get their perspectives on because certainly you're going to read it over prior and

understand what's going on who are the people you you go I'm excited to hear this perspective I don't know what it's going to say but I'm excited to click that email open it up and find out what's happening so we as we've grown we get like like 10 unsolicited requests a day or something now it's almost like it's too much so um Got to keep the email brief and get the really cool, unique stuff up at the top, I guess, or in the subject line if we're going to pay attention to it. But we do do our best to sift through all of them. I don't know.

I've always thought this too, like, and we kind of touch on this already, but like, for me, it's young people. For me, it's young folks who are energetic. Names. Give me names. Give me people. Give me real people. What is this?

You give me a voter profile right now. Well, I'm just going to end up talking about yourself. Aaron, you came to us. We met through a mutual podcaster Tara Henley, and I should have said it's not allowed to be me. Here, I'll give her another example. We have a correspondent at an Ottawa named Ellie, and he's a young guy in his 20s, and he's wise beyond his years. And I'm astounded at his ability to, you know, learn, work for us well pursuing a university education at the University of Ottawa. And he wrote a piece recently for us, you know, from his perspective, but also speaking to his colleagues about why the heck a poll recently showed that 43% of, I think it's Gen Ziers in Canada, would get, would seek American citizens.

citizenship if their assets could be converted into U.S. dollars. And why are young people in Canada willing to give up on their country? And looking at the hand that we've dealt this generation and how for the first time it's going to be worse than the hand that their parents were dealt, that frustrates me. And what frustrates me is the quotes from articles like that when young people say, you know, I did all the stuff. Like I got the university education. I did the internship. I worked my my ass off. And then I just, I don't see like a path ahead of me unless I come from an upper middle class family, unless I get into business or finance. Like that's,

that's a sad state of affairs. When, you know, the people that are supposed to be most optimistic when it comes to the future of Canada are the people that are most pessimistic. I couldn't agree more. I see so much of that. And it's hard to balance. I think I got into this a bit with David Eby. How much do we try and inspire people to stop looking for an already carved path? How much of this needs entrepreneurs to be driven, motivated, like, nothing is going to stop me from reaching my goals. No government action, no government in action. I am going to go get it no matter what. And how much is like, When if you look 40 years ago, like you could be on social assistance and end up with a house and be in a financially reasonable circumstance where you weren't in jeopardy or homeless or going to food banks every day. Like how do we find that balance of keeping that energized workforce that's willing to do whatever it takes versus having empathy and understanding for people's circumstances? I think it's a balance, right? like you can't have the state putting up blockages in front of you so you have to create an environment in which someone who wants to make something can thrive um but also you i don't know

you need to you need to nudge them along give them some help i'm big on mentorship erin i'm a a cubs scout leader and i've been involved in it for uh like 30 years uh so that explains a lot the warm kindness thank you yeah so so so i i don't have kids in my own uh but i hope to but every wednesday night i'm in charge of like 37 to 10 year olds and uh they are delightful and um i try to uh set an example for them um i try to explain to them and i'll get sappy for a minute here it's like for i'm like for this whole neighborhood community machine to work it takes a bunch of different things working at once. You guys are tiny cogs and you've all got, you know, the, you have to be spinning next to one another and giving back and doing what's expected of you.

And yes, that involves, you know, responsibilities placed on you, not, you know, rights and, you know, what the state should be giving me? What can you do for your community that helps this whole thing work? I also tell them that they're like from a long line of, of cubs you know that have been in the community for like a century and that i think those linkages help as well they don't the worst thing especially when it comes to young men erin like if they're idle and they don't have a sense of purpose and like they're part some like they're you know they're they're they're like cherished and part of some sort of club um and they're aimless i think it only leads to problems. So how, like, I don't know, someone like yourself when you're,

how did you ensure that you weren't just sort of floating around and ending up in the wrong crowds? Like, what, what allowed for you to, you know, chart that path straight ahead and not, you know, ambling off of it? I was that person for not an insignificant portion of my life, um, without direction or a sense of where I needed to be. But I always just felt underestimated by teachers and and people like they they kind of treated me like I had nothing going on in my head meanwhile like I was kind of critical in my own head of how they were doing their own jobs like teachers who didn't like me I was like well I don't think you're a great teacher like it's not it's not a one-way street for me it's not like you're the best teacher and I'm a

terrible person like I've always been I'm I did Jordan Peterson's um personality assessment and it found me in the 99th percentile of most disagreeable people So I have a very difficult time agreeing with what the majority has to say. So I think that led me down a path of wanting to chart it for myself. And yeah, I guess that involves too. Like maybe your thing wasn't school. But it takes, you know, a teacher or someone else noticing that like, okay, maybe he struggles here. But like this other thing, he seems to really be interested in.

And let's foster that. Like, let's get him doing that kind of stuff because, uh, uh, to not be encouraging i think you know those people failed you to a certain extent if they were just sort of putting you down i think i remember you telling me like one of them said you know this guy's going to end up in prison or something like that is not yeah and again thing to say like yeah it's a it's a wild thing but i'm glad that you're you're playing that role and it's got to be unique for you to be able to see young people growing up and also being able to see the state of the world that they're going to be leaders of one day that they're going to be taking responsibility

for that they're like um within my culture it's like this idea of seven generations and that we're supposed to steward this and pass it on to the next generation and give it to them in a good way and when you talk about this like um we've heard the statistic that younger generations are going to be the first time worse off than their parents were that's such a change in the relationship amongst um families like to to understand understand that there's an inequity there. I do want to ask you a little bit about your perspective. I've heard some comments and I'd like to get your understanding. How is the hub actually funded? I've heard some some ex posts about it. How does that function and how is it different than media

subsidies? So the official line I'll give you. So it's a not for profit funded by subscription revenue, advertising dollars and a partnership with a charity called. the Center for Civic Engagement. So we're up against it, Aaron, and like everyone, you know, if we're, if we're all in a race to get as many eyeballs as possible up against all our competitor, other news outlets, we're at a huge disadvantage because they're all, like most of them, there's a few of us that signed something called the Ottawa Declaration saying we're not going to take media subsidies, but the rest of them are on the media subsidies.

So they're at a massive head start when it comes to that. So, yeah, we will do, you know, we will do, you know, sponsored series, but they're, you know, a fair, we did one recently on the future of news with meta, which you can see and was a finalist at the COPA Awards this year, where we looked at the, you know, given the state of the media, what are different, and how do we profile them, what are different news organizations that are, um, I guess, succeeding in the current environment that show promise. So we went across the country and spoke to folks there. Yeah, I guess that's generally sort of how I would describe things. We increasing are moving into podcast and video. And we've begun, you know, in the last year or so, gating certain pieces to encourage people to become subscribers.

And it's all about like building that community, right? We have hub events across the country, whether they're pub nights or, private Q&As with you know Canadian and our American thinkers recently had

Oren Cass from American Compass who you know is the brains behind the tariffs in the US you know

he's been known to have crafted some of the thinking that you know vice president J.D. Vance has in his head currently and you know

were eggs thrown at him as he made his way into the event? No, we actually had a respectful dialogue and tried to get a sense of like, where are they coming from here? And then how can Canadian policymakers, you know, potentially respond?

You know, you've got to understand where the people you disagree with are coming from for you to form an argument against them. You know, and that's one of the reason why I described that smorgasbord when it comes to media. It's like, if you disagree on an issue or with someone, it would help if you've, like, read their stuff, I hope, or like have a sense of like how they have formed their opinions so that you can then form your own. I think it really helps. I just like to call them names and then hope they never come back up ever again. That's my preference. It's like you read that? Oh my gosh, it's such horrible disgust. It's like, well, I kind of want to know what they're up to.

There's the whole reason, you know, this debate between, I don't know. I hate the word platforming, but like, listening to, so for example, like Steve Bannon was interviewed by Global News a few days ago. And I'm sure a lot of people were up in arms and said, this guy's, you know, a living human devil and how dare global news send reporters down there to put a microphone in front of his face. And he was in prison and he's a bad person. Yeah, like what I see in that, it's like regardless of what you think about the guy, I kind of want to know, you know, maybe he's got the inside scoop on what Trump's about to

do next. He, you know, was a senior member of his White House staff. And I think it's far more interesting and helpful to kind of get where the heck this guy is coming from than to just kind of like bury that. I think often if you, with some of these folks, if you ignore them and don't whatever platform them means, you just force them further underground. They get angrier. They talked amongst themselves about how folks avoid them and how no one gives them the time of day, and they lash out even more. I think it extends your problem and makes it even worse when it comes to the division, conflict, et cetera. What makes a great journalist from your perspective? I wrote some notes here.

Put them away. We got to put it unfiltered on this or something. I think, I think curiosity. Wow, that's revolutionary. Nobody's ever said that before. I had to write that down. Curious. I have, I used to be described at my last job of like a child had, a childlike sense of wonder.

Like, I don't know. I still find, I'm, I don't know, I'm just, you have to be interested in the world. You have to be interested in people. you have to um you have to um i don't know just be wanting and i was a shy i was a shy kid Aaron like i would get my brother to walk up at like hotel uh you know front desks and like you know get the cards and stuff because i just couldn't do but but when you you know become a journalist and you're forced to be cold calling people uh you know all that sort of melts away. Yeah, I think I'm going to be lame here, curiosity. But you know what? Crushes

curiosity, activism, Aaron. So I think, yeah, I think it comes down to sort of curiosity. I also think that everyone is interesting. So when, you know, people will say to me, I had a, you know, I want everybody to know when I asked Harrison to come on, his first, I've got nothing to say about myself. I don't have anything interesting. the guy who finds everybody interesting didn't find himself interesting to discuss himself yeah like i was interested this guy i think someone's like i don't know if you'll get along like he works at mcdonalds you want to have much to talk about i just i like just interview people um who i meet because like there's so many things you can learn even from this guy who works at mcdonalds

you know who are the interesting characters that you know frequent your establishment how does it all work like it's like a you know a whole like factory assembly line back there how to you know how to you know How does that work out? I spoke into, like, plumbers and truckers and all these. It's, you know, you can gain a lot just by, like, peppering people with questions. And if they sense that you're actually interested in what they do, and you're not just bullshitting them, like, they totally open up. Dude, you just described this whole podcast.

You have to give away the whole secret. It can't be, it can't be fake. And it's so easy to recognize that someone's, like, putting something. something on or like playing a role. I think often we went off the top talking about politicians, it's like, oh, he's playing the role of X, Y, Z, as opposed to this is a genuine person who cares. Yeah, I think that that could be realized by someone in seconds. So, you know, it's important to sort of foster that. It's like, is he asking that question just because he's reading it on a piece of paper and it was handed to him by a producer? And he's like some sort of action.

that's able to give it this little tonal, like, hmm, and like fake curiosity, or is he, like, actually genuinely interested? And people are so interested. That's why they're listening to podcasts. That's why they're listening to alternative media. That's why they want something beyond the, like, CTV broadcaster,

Welcome tonight. And, like, someone's putting on this voice, and there's all this blitz and glam, and this person's in, like, seven layers of makeup. And people don't want that. They're, like, desperate for politicians and media personalities who are just on their level, genuine and real, as opposed to, like, all this

stuff that gets in the way of, like, two people interacting with one another. So, yeah, it's funny. And now we're having, you know, podcasts that go, like, four or five hours. And then meander around. When, meanwhile, Aaron, I was taught in journalism school, like, this is the opening question. This goes here. And, you know, one question could dismantle the whole thing, because You didn't follow this, like, direct path. It's just weird how it's, you know, it's all, it's all just, the whole thing has been blown up by the last few years. What made you interested in journalism?

Well, I think it was partially the fact that my grandfather was, like, a Toronto Star journalist for, like, 45 plus years coming out of World War II. So that's part of it. He actually passed away before he saw that I, you know, got into the industry. But I, you know. Can you tell me a bit more about him? That's interesting. Okay. So his name was Ronald Lohman.

He was in the Royal Air Force. He came out of the war. And, you know, you talk about, you know, better hands being dealt, you know, as you proceed down the generational line. This guy friggin walked into the Toronto Star Building and wrote some poem that was, I think, entitled Penn for a Hire. And, you know, I think they looked, they were happy to have former servicemen, you know, joined their rank. So he got a job. And then Aaron, they flew him out all across

the world to cover the refugee crisis post-World War II. And he came back and he said to his wife, who had had two kids, one of them being my dad, we cannot try and have a third kid. We need to adopt. And they adopted a young baby from China. You know, the one-child policy been enacted. And my aunt, Susan, had been left in an apartment. building in Hong Kong with the door locked by her parents because they didn't want her because she was a girl. She wound up in an orphanage. And what did my grandfather do? They flew her over. She was one of the first adopted Chinese babies in Ontario. And he made a new story out of it. And it was on like A2 or A3 of the Toronto Star, her coming down the staircase of the plane

and my dad and aunt and my grandpa and grandma, like welcoming this girl with open arms into extremely white Scarborough, where she had wild culture shock. But she was, you know, welcomed into Canada. She is a proud and happy Canadian today. And I have a Chinese aunt as a result. But this was all part of, you know, this was him as a journalist covering a topic. And then I guess it, you know, it affecting him enough. that he was like, you know, I need to do something here because this is just so horrible,

the displacement of people I'm seeing here. And then, you know, it changing his life and the life of my family. How do you enact that in your own life, that piece of like you cover stories, their stories, but how do you take it home? Or how do you incorporate what you learn about the world into your own life? Hmm. I don't know. The big one for me, and this may seem a bit off topic, is like when I was at TVO, I covered a lot of stuff about like Afghanistan and specifically around like Afghan women. I think it's a, it's an issue that's near and dear to my heart. Just because again, it's like we talk about Canada.

I think it's another example of like Canada promising the world and delivering not so much. And then I don't know if you knew this. like, I think we were the first G7 country to leave Afghanistan as it fell to the Taliban, and we are ambassador left on a half-empty military plane, and foreign affairs put up a plaque honoring their great job in Afghanistan, and that really gets to me. And I think that's an example where I was covering something, and I was like really pissed, to be honest and like made an effort as much as I could to pitch these stories and to try and get it to stay in the news even people don't talk about this anymore because it got replaced with Gaza or

it got placed with Ukraine and feeling sort of in my heart that like we have legitimately abandoned these people we promised them especially the ones who helped uh Canadian service members you know we said we'd be there for them and we said we'd be there for them you know if the moment came when we you know lost this conflict and uh I think we really screwed them over and it was left to former Canadian soldiers to literally volunteer and put together, like, evacuation efforts to get these people out, as opposed to the government that had made these promises to them. I think that's an example of something that I really get angry about.

And, you know, I did a speech recently about it at the Royal Canadian Military Institute. And, you know, I donate money to. to help with these efforts. So that's an example. You know, you're not, it's hard, right? Like, I still believe in objectivity in journalism. You know, this is an example of obviously

kind of where you can take sides. But you do have to watch that, but every now and then, and I think a lot of journalists will tell you this there, there's that one issue that kind of tugs at your heartstrings that you get involved and then you find yourself getting really involved in, and then it kind of to a certain extent

becomes a part of your life. I was in an Uber ride a few days ago, and I was speaking to a kid in his early 20s. And this was amidst all this talk of Canada being broken and the trade war looming and us, you know, feeling bad for ourselves. And this kid was from Afghanistan. His dad had passed away. He grew up in Afghanistan. His mother was still over there under the, you know, Taliban. Apparently they don't give her too much.

trouble. But over there, Aaron, like, women are you even allowed to appear in front of windows anymore. They're denied education. They're just, you know, complete second-class citizens, barely treated like humans. Anyway, this kid, uh, he loved Canada. And he would not stop talking about how, um, when he was applying to leave and get out of there, it was his dream to come to Canada. And, um, this is today. This is the Canada that's a supposedly crap that we talk about being bad. This is a kid who spent nine months. in a refugee camp in the Middle East, with hopes of coming to Canada,

who made it here and is taking English lessons and driving Uber and who had a giant smile across his face nonetheless and was just so happy to be here, had heard that maybe the country was better 10 or so years ago, but it didn't eliminate the smile from his face. And you know what?

I asked for his number. That sounds weird. Like I wanted to date him or something, but I was so struck by this kid that, you know, as a journalist, you're like, my gosh, there might be like a story about this, or maybe I should interview him for the podcast, because, you know, we've got to tell good stories as well. There's so much doom and gloom and negative whining about what goes on here. And I agree there's like so many deep-seated problems with the country. But it's just so refreshing to hear from someone and get the perspective I talked about at the beginning, pull the lens back and realize that like, yes, there's systems that are buckling and struggling. But like, man, we have a lot to offer still. And we should. should, we should, you know, make even better version of this country in the future. And

people are still dying, literally dying to get here. How can people follow along with your work? Check out the podcast. How do people stay connected? Well, I don't know. I have a raft of different things I'm doing. Thanks to the hub. You can visit us at www.thehub.ca. We have a podcast of our own where we interview interesting people called Hub Dialogues. You can find that within the Hub podcast channel. And then I do, you heard me complaining a lot about the media. I do a media criticism podcast called Full Press with Tara Henley and Peter Menzies over at Hub Podcasts as well. So that's where you can listen to me, you know, go on and on and drone on and on even more, should you be so interested. Harrison, it's an honor to know you. I appreciate all of your support

helping get my perspective out there on the hub. I have a lot of admiration. for the approach you take. I think that humility and that eagerness to learn really shines through in this interview and in your approach. And I think that gives people a lot of hope and a lot of space to think about things differently. I love this space because I think for a very long time we treated people like truck drivers, labor workers, like they didn't have a lot to think about. And just hearing about how many people who are truck drivers who listen to long form podcasts and learn about all types of topics and really engaged in complex issues. it gives me a pause to know that we are stewarded by people we might not expect in our society.

There are voices out there you might not expect have a lot to say or a lot of wisdom behind that. And that gives me a lot of hope. And that's what I get from you is just a willingness and an openness to learn more every day. And I think we can get through all of this if we bring that kind of mindset forward. There's no shame in changing our minds, Aaron, in listening to these folks and then saying, oh, I didn't think about that way. I was wrong and, you know, building layers of perspective. So thank you for your praise.

You're obviously biased. You're very biased and you're, you know, thinking to me. I'm non-objective. Yeah, yeah. You're a good guy yourself. And yeah, let's try and stay positive. I like to be pessimistic, so I'm surprised when things go well. But I'll take that to heart and try to be more positive moving forward.

So thank you. You're working with kids because you can't be too pessimistic. You're working with the next generation there. Yeah. So when they don't poo their pants, you're like oh we had a good day amazing thank you again for being willing to do this and for bringing such unique perspectives to Canadians thanks sir