Nuanced. - 187. Karina Gould: Fighting to Become the Leader of the Liberal Party of Canada

Episode Date: March 1, 2025

Who will represent the Liberal Party in the next election? Karina Gould joins Aaron Pete to discuss her bid for Liberal Party leadership, her vision for Canada, the challenges facing the party, Pierre Poilievre, Mark Carney, the carbon tax, reconciliation, and the future of Canadian politics.Send us a textThe "What's Going On?" PodcastThink casual, relatable discussions like you'd overhear in a barbershop....Listen on: Apple Podcasts   SpotifySupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger Than Me podcast. Here is your host here and Pete. What is the future of the Liberal Party of Canada? I'm speaking with one of the candidates who is running in the liberal leadership race. We discuss Pierre Polyev, Mark Carney, the Carbon Tax, Reconciliation, and the Future of Canada. My guest today is Karina Gould. Karina, I am so grateful that you're able to share your time today. Would you mind first introducing yourself to listeners?

Sure. So my name is Karina Gould, and I am seeking the leadership of the Liberal Party of Canada. Can we start off with why? I'm sure that you've been asked this in many different ways, but no politics. This is something that when you join politics is maybe a dream out yonder. What if one day, maybe I have the opportunity? How have you gotten here and why do you want this position? Yeah.

So, look, I've been a member of parliament for almost 10 years now. I'm from Burlington, Ontario, and I've been very proud to represent my community in Parliament for the past decade. And I'm doing this right now because I care so much about our country, and we are at a very pivotal moment. We're facing some very serious threats from down south of the border with Donald Trump and the tariff threats that he is threatening. But we are also about to face a really important choice about who we want to.

to lead our country over the next coming of years and what kind of vision we have for our country. And I'm quite worried about Pierre Pahliav and his agenda of cuts. And I think we need somebody who is a candidate for the future, who believes so deeply in this country, believes in the people of Canada, and is going to put everything in there to build a brighter future for our country. I know you've been asked this before about the challenges in this race. You're up against some very well-known, becoming well-known names. I think Canadians love an underdog, and I think generally people love underdogs. Almost every great movie that you can think of starts with somebody starting behind the ape ball and working towards it.

How are you approaching this race and how do you bring that mindset of pushing up against people who might be more established than yourself? Yeah. It's yeah, it's kind of funny to think of myself as the underdog, but I definitely am, you know, and it's been so exciting to hear from people across the country who are excited about my candidacy, excited about my youth, excited about my vision for the future. And, you know, I've been approaching this race as I have important things to say. I have important voices to represent and important issues. to put on the table. And what I've seen over the past seven weeks is where, you know, the two kind of frontrunners, if you will, started the race in one position and have kind of followed my lead and moved further, you know, to where I'm going and the ideas that I'm putting forward. And that's something that I think is really important. Look, I'm, I'm so proud to be a liberal. I'm a progressive. I believe in a country that is, inclusive, that takes care of our vulnerable, that sets everybody up for success. And, you know,

when I think about the issues that we're debating in this campaign, yeah, we have to talk about the macro economy and we need to talk about productivity. But I made sure we were talking about people. I made sure that we were talking about Canadians. And I made sure that we were talking about poverty and the environment and indigenous issues and things that I know Canadians care about. And I'm really, really happy with that. And I'm really just so motivated by the encouragement that I'm getting from Canadians across the country. That is one piece that I've heard a lot about and you've heard, I'm sure, a lot of news stories about the liberals moving back to the center. I'm wondering, how do you digest that? What are liberal values? Well, look, being a liberal is

somebody who is socially progressive, cares about taking care of Canadians, but is fiscally responsible. And being a liberal means that we are the party of the center, which means we can have policies that are more on the left and policies that are more on the right, but that they're the right policies for Canadians. And, you know, I hear folks when they say we need to move more back to the center, but that kind of means something different for almost every liberal in terms of what that looks like. And, you know, what I have committed to as the liberal leader is that I will have a big tent party. I think the liberal party is strongest when we have that healthy tension of wanting to, you know, move Canada forward with big ideas, but also being pragmatic and

responsible in how we're managing the country's finances. That's, you know, kind of been the history of the Liberal Party of Canada. And I think that tension is good. And, you know, I've always been someone who's probably been, you know, a bit left of center and, you know, very proud of, you know, what we've been able to accomplish in that regard. But I think having that dialogue and that debate is important. So for me, what does it mean to have liberal values? It means that we take care of the most vulnerable that we work for equity and inclusion. We are responsible fiscal and economic managers. And we build the country where everyone has an opportunity to succeed. So that's what it means to me to be a liberal.

Do you think over the past nine years that the liberals have been economically and financially responsible? I do. Look, we had a major event in the COVID-19 pandemic where we had to make major investments in Canadians and Canadian organizations. If the federal government hadn't come through with things like the emergency response benefit, the business, loan and the wage subsidy, we would be in a very, very different fiscal situation and economic situation as a country. So we, outside event that happened that had an impact on Canada and on Canadians. And, you know, my belief is that the role of the federal government is there to catch Canadians when they fall and to provide that support that was needed.

I think we did the right thing. It was an expensive thing to do, right? But I think that we would have been in a really much worse position had we not done that. In an interview with CTV, you talked about how you get in these rooms. And of course, things happen behind closed doors. You're having conversations. You're trying to land on which direction you're going to go, that your voice, you have your own opinions that weren't always the way the party went. What do you think Justin Trudeau got wrong?

Well, so look, first of all, I'm really proud of our record as a government. I think that we have done some really big important things. I'm not going to run away from things like the Canada Child Benefit or Affordable Child Care, our record on Indigenous reconciliation, our record on the environment, and some of the really big important investments that we've made in our industries in Canada. But where I think that we missed the mark was in the immediate aftermath of the pandemic when the public health crisis was kind of over, but the inflation crisis was starting.

And Canadians were saying to us, you know, in kind of early to mid-2020, like, oh, my goodness, like, I cannot afford to live my life right now. And my mortgage is going out of control. Grocery prices are skyrocketing. I can't afford to put gas in the tank. And they were saying, like, hey, like, things are not okay right now. And we had just gotten out of the pandemic, if you were. will. And we were kind of like, you know, focused on the fact that we did a really good job

handling the pandemic. And for all intensive purposes, like, we did do a good job of handling the pandemic. But we didn't hear Canadians in the moment where they were saying, like, things are still not okay. And actually, I'm now entering this new crisis. And we kind of got there eventually, but we got there months and years too late. And so the job of the government is to have your finger on the pulse and to know where Canadians are in that moment. And so I can really clearly look and see that that was a big moment of departure for us. And when we finally got to the point of saying, like, we understand that cost of living is really on top of Canadians' minds, they were kind of saying, yeah, but we told you that. And you didn't respond in the moment that we

needed you to. So for me, it's about making sure that as Prime Minister, as a leader in this country, I'm connected with Canadians and listening to what is top of mind for them and responding to what their needs are. I think that's really important. The piece that really stands out to me that I've interviewed Minister Patty Heidu, Minister Gary Annan Sangare, about the work going on on reconciliation. And I have been amazed at how quiet your government has been on a portfolio that I feel like has been incredibly successful over the past nine years. And I've asked both of them in interviews, like, why is this not what the liberals are putting forward to Canadians as an area of absolute success? Of course, I'm going to have neighboring communities tell me there's always more to do. And I'm not disagreeing with that.

But from what we've seen over 30, 40, 50, 150 years, this is the most progress from everything I understand that's been made. Like, I'm a First Nations counselor. We've got 35 of 89 homes completely renovated. We're applying for more funds to continue to do that work. We have new water system being put through. Indigenous Services Canada has been 100% supportive of the work we're doing on that front. We're putting in a sewage system. It's going to allow us to put in BC housing infrastructure so that we have more homes on reserve

to bring people home and reduce the amount of people living homeless in urban centers. And I think that should be something that is being put forward. but I've seen multiple news articles saying that the liberals have been pretty silent on reconcilatory issues during this campaign, during this period, during the leadership race. And I'm just, I'm wondering why. I mean, what a great question, because I'm so proud of what we've been able to do on reconciliation with indigenous peoples over the last decade. It's one of the reasons why I ran in 2015. And yet, it hasn't figured almost at all into the leadership campaign. You know, the first interview that I did after I launched,

or one of the first interviews that I did after I launched my campaign was with APTN to talk about reconciliation and to talk about indigenous issues. You know, I was excited when Jaime Batiste was originally in the leadership campaign because I thought maybe that would mean that we would have a, you know, a bigger spotlight on reconciliation, but it just, you know, I don't know, it's an issue that I bring up. I brought it up in the debates a couple of times, both in English and in French, because I think it's important for us to discuss and understand where the candidates stand on it. You know, my commitment is to continue doing the work that we've been doing. I think it's really

important to implement UNRIP to make sure that we continue to advance reconciliation in this country. So, and, you know, it's not just reconciliation that we haven't been talking about. I mean, obviously, um, the long shadow of Trump has been something that has focused the mind of, of this leadership campaign. But, you know, we haven't, like, I've been talking about affordability. I've been talking about housing. I've been talking about, um, making our economy more competitive. I've been talking about modernizing our social safety net and opening up a path towards basic income. I've been talking about fighting climate change, but I'm not really hearing that from the other candidates. And, you know, I'm still talking about Trump, but we have to be able to walk

and chew gum at the same time. You know, we have to be able to protect our sovereignty and our economy, but also do the things that Canadians need us to do at home. On UBI, universal basic income. Some, from my understanding, during 2020, when Serb was a big piece, some point to that and go, this is evidence that this approach really doesn't work. That was one of the test cases of people being able to stay home. They were being supplemented their income. And there was a real slog for people to want to go back to work because of some of those resources. I heard it from friends and peers. What is your take on that? Does that inform any of your understanding of UBI? Do you think that's a bad example? Well, look, I would say that what we saw with Serb is we saw a massive

cut in poverty in our country. And we saw, it wasn't that people didn't want to go back to work. It was that when they couldn't work, they had the income and the supports that they needed. And we, in a way, have a basic income for children through the Canada Child Benefit and a basic income for seniors through old age security and the guaranteed income supplement. But we need to do more for some of the most vulnerable in our society. We don't have the supports needed for people who live with disabilities. And, you know, I can say that, like, I graduated into the 2008 financial crisis. It was hard to find a job.

I got a job. I was on contract. I've never had a job in Canada where I've qualified for EI. And I'm not alone in that. You know, there are many people in my generation, I'm a millennial or younger, who, work on, who work multiple jobs, who work on contract, and for whom the social safety net just doesn't work. And so we really need to ensure that we have a system that works for Canadians in 2025. Is that a basic income? I don't know. Maybe. But let's explore it and let's see what

makes the most sense for our social safety net in 2025 that is not just going to catch people when they fall, but also help them bounce back up and be even more successful. The carbon tax has, of course, become a live issue. Would you ask the tax? So my commitment is that I would cancel the planned increase for April 1st and keep it at the current level. I think we need to have an honest conversation with Canadians about this. When people talk about the carbon tax and you're in BC, like you don't have the consumer price on pollution. It's a different system in BC. and Quebec. What they're really talking about is affordability. They're not saying that they don't

want to fight climate change. They're not saying that they don't want to protect the environment. They're saying things are expensive and we need help. We know the price on pollution is not what is increasing the prices. What is increasing the prices are inflation, but it's also the high cost of housing. It's the high cost of groceries. So that's why I put forward an ambitious plan to tackle housing affordability, to end homelessness, to help first time homebuyers get into the market. But also, To cut the GST from 5 to 4%, at least for a year, we'll see how that goes, but to give people real savings immediately and also to really strengthen our Competition Bureau in Canada so that we don't have any more of this fake competition, that people have real choice and better prices.

Mark Carney has gone on John Stewart and Christia Freeland has gone on Bill Mayer's show. And from a Canadian's perspective, in a time where it feels like the tensions are high, among Canadians and Americans. I'm wondering how you digest the fact that they're going on American media when there is this high tension between us. Yeah, well, I think it's important for us to be on Canadian media. I think that's really important to support our own Canadian media. And, you know, I went on this hour has 22 minutes as one of the first things to do. But I also think as a time when Pierre Pollyev is a is threatening to get rid of CBC Haddio Canada.

We really do need to be supporting our local media in Canada. I also think that it's important to talk to Americans, but also to talk to the right audience, you know, and make sure that the message that we're delivering is reaching the audience that we need it to. You were the only one to criticize Mark Carney during the English debate. Why do you think that was? Well, I pushed all of my colleagues. You know, it's supposed to be a debate. That is what we call that.

And so that means that we should be challenging each other on our ideas. I, you know, think that liberal members across this country, we're looking for ways to see, okay, where did the different leadership candidates stand on different issues? They're looking to make an enforcement. choice as to who's going to be the next leader of our party and the prime minister. And so they have a right to be able to see where do I stand on certain issues versus others. And so, you know, I pushed each of them on, you know, different areas where we differentiate. And I wanted to understand where they stand as well. So it's supposed to be a debate. It was a friendly debate, you know, and that's good. We're all liberals. But at the end of

the day, it's about the direction of our party and the direction of our country, and people should be able to make an informed choice. Can you make a clear differentiation? How are you different than the two lead opposition? Yeah. So when they talk about households, I talk about families. When they talk about productivity, I talk about how people can make ends meet. You know, I'm a grassroots politician that has always been connected in community, and I know that politics is about people. We absolutely need to have, you know, a big economic plan. That is, you know, not a question. But at the end of the day, who is the economy? The economy are the Canadian people. And it's all well and good to say that our economic indicators look good at 30,000 feet. But if Canadians

don't feel like they're getting ahead, if they're struggling to pay for their groceries or put gas in their tank, the economy's not working for them. And so the big difference between me, and the others is that my focus is about people. It's about Canadians. It's about how to make their lives better. Whereas my colleagues are thinking kind of at a higher level, and that's okay too. And I think we need both of those things. But I think as Prime Minister, your job is to listen to people. It's to understand what Canadians are going through and to put forward solutions that are going to make a real tangible difference in their lives. What have you learned during your time in government and being host leader?

Oh, gosh, I've learned so many different things in my time in government. But I would say the main thing that I've learned is that my job as a politician is to put the human face on policy. I get the policy wonk stuff from the bureaucracy and they do a good job. But my job is to say, okay, and how does that impact people in their day-to-day lives? and is this the decision that is going to be good for people in Canada? So that has been one of the big takeaways for me, having been a minister for the last eight years, as I always push the excellent public servants that we have to say, okay, but what does this mean for people on the ground?

And is that going to make their lives better? And then as government house leader, the thing that I have learned is how to work with people that I don't agree with. I have to negotiate in the House of Commons every single day with conservative, block, NDP, green MPs, and to find a way forward. And so, you know, I don't necessarily agree. And oftentimes we don't agree, but we figure out ways to keep moving things forward and to work for Canadians. So I've developed some really good negotiating skills, but also how to find common ground with people where we share different visions of the country. If you're successful, you're going to be going up against potentially Pierre Pauliev,

who I would say is a very seasoned politician, a very good communicator. And then if you're successful against that, then you get to face off against Donald Trump in those circumstances. And I'm wondering, what can you tell Canadians, how can you give us reassurance that you're up to the task to go against some pretty heavy hitters? Well, look, men like Pierre Polyev and Donald Trump underestimate leaders like me every single day. And that's their mistake. I've gone up against Pierre Polyev

every single day in the House of Commons for almost a decade. So I know how to go toe to toe with him and I know how to win. I've won in my riding of Burlington three times. It's typically a very conservative riding. And again, I know how to fight and I know how to win. and when it comes to Donald Trump, it's all about strength.

And look, I grew up with three brothers who played hockey. I know how to hold my own. But more than that, it, you know, like, I think what Canadians can take away from me is that, yes, I'm nice. Yes, I'm smiling. But I know how to fight and I know how to fight for them. And I have been fighting for Canadians for 10 years in the House of Commons. I know how to stand up to bullies, and I know how to protect what I care about, and I care about this country. Last piece, we're nearing the end of this.

This is going to air on the Monday. I'm wondering, how do people show their support for the work that you're doing? How do they get involved in this election as it nears a close? Yeah. So, first, if you've joined the Liberal Party, you can vote for me. You can rank me number one on your ballot. That's the best way you can do it. And if you'd like, you can volunteer.

on my campaign. We're going to need your help to get out the vote. And if you really want to, I would encourage you to make a donation. My campaign is powered by people, thousands of people across the country who have sent everywhere from $10 to $100 or more to my campaign. Every dollar counts. And so you can do that whether you can volunteer or donate, whether you're a member of the party or not. And if you are a member of the party, please don't forget to vote by March 9th. Karina, I really appreciate you being willing to take this time, and I'm grateful for your team for setting this up. I have worked with the other potential leaders, and it has been a challenge to get their time. I know that they have a lot of obligations.

I know there's a lot going on with this, but your team didn't ask any questions about what I was going to be asking about. They just wanted to schedule this and share your time. And so I'm very grateful for that. I think that does speak to your approach of leadership, of just being willing to sit down with people and have the conversation. So kudos to you, and I wish you the best of luck moving forward. Well, thanks, Aaron. Look, I'm not afraid of the hard conversations or the hard questions. That's what leadership is.

And we live in a democracy. And so our job as leader, our job as prime minister, is to have a conversation with Canadians. So thanks so much for reaching out. I'm glad to have it with you.