Nuanced. - 20. Kim Gemmell: Author & Community Leader

Episode Date: February 10, 2021

Kim Gemmell is an author, wife, mother and inspirational speaker. Through life’s journey she shares her trials and tribulations, included with some great triumphs along the way. Her story sends a message of humbled gratefulness accompanied with the power to rise above adversity with new found strength. She equips her audience to find the tools we all possess, but perhaps don’t know we had, in order to live a wonderful life, even though it may not be perfect.Send us a textSupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Kim Gemmell, you have written two books. You are an inspiring person. You've worked so hard to share important stories, and it is an absolute pleasure to have you on. I'm wondering if you can start with a brief introduction of yourself. Okay, well, I don't know if I can do anything brief. Fair enough. Yeah, so my name's Kim Gamble, and I'm a mother and a wife and author, as you know. And yeah, it's just really great to be here. I've actually been born, I was born and raised in Chilliwack. I did live in Vancouver for 10 years, actually, in Burnaby.

And then when we moved back, my mom had offered to babysit for us when my baby was born. So we thought we'd take her up on that offer. And so we moved back Chilawak. And that was, my daughter's now, on Tuesday, should be 26. Wow. Well, I'd like to get right into it. it and just start with a little bit of the backstory because I've been reading Smile again. And as I mentioned in a Facebook post, it has really been helping just to know that other people

face different types of challenges. As many people know, I recently lost my grandmother and she was like my main role model. She really helped my mom in adopting her from Kokelyza and taking care of her. And she just took me in as well and has just always been that role model, that support, no questions asked type of person. And so I just recently lost her. And so being able to read a book that is about processing things and understanding the adversity and understanding it as just a moment in time that we have to work through and that there's a lot to get out of those moments. There are moments where you get to recognize the people who are supporting you. And I really think you did a great job in bravery of doing that, of recognizing the people who don't realize

in hospitals working so hard that they're making an impact that lasts and when people leave they're still impacted by the small kind gestures that are made in those circumstances and I thought you really did a good job of focusing on that and letting other people feel valued and I think that that's something that we miss out on in social media and in shorter interactions is really getting into and understanding where people are coming from and the difference people make and that's what this podcast is all about so I'm really grateful to have you on to be able to talk about these things. Can you give us just a little bit of a summary of bravery and then we'll do smile again?

Yeah, certainly. And first, I want to say how sorry I'm to hear about your grandmother. We share that in common that our grandmas were our mentors. And when we lose them, it's just a hole in our heart. But we take the valuable lessons and all that they gave to us. And they live on in us because we pick up their traits. So you'll find that even as you age, you'll be like, oh, that's what my grandma would have said or, oh, that, you know, and it's, so it's wonderful. So they're still really with us.

But, and I think without my grandma, I don't, I don't think I'd have the strength to have endured all I have with what our family has gone through. She was my role model and my mentor, and with people like that, it's if we can be lucky enough to have somebody like that in our life to influence. us to, you know, we don't even realize what strength they give us when we're young, but once they're gone and we are carrying on in life, we see the impact that they had and we're grateful for them even more than almost when they were alive sometimes. Yes, absolutely. Yes, but so my grandma was my biggest influence, along with my mom and dad. I grew up on a little horse farm, and we had, I had a wonderful childhood.

Couldn't have been any better. really, really blessed. I had a horse when I was five, and even though I was too young to ride it by myself, my dad would lead me around the farm on it. It was, yeah, it was pretty neat. That's awesome. Yeah, then post-graduation, I went to UFE, and I majored in French and minored in art history, and I got an opportunity to go to France, which was wonderful. And then I took some sociology courses as well. But I just couldn't decide what I wanted to be. And I ended up moving to Burnaby and going to BCIT and taking some courses there. And I ended up getting a really good promotions job at a health club.

It was like a kind of a lifestyle health and country fitness club. And that's where I met my very kind and handsome husband, Cam. And that's when we started our family and decided to move back to Chilawak. And had our daughter, Jesse, in 1998, was amazing, just a blessing. I think my friends were more worried about me because I'd never really been around babies and I was like one of the first to have babies. And it just was natural. I just fell in love. I still remember having to go back to work because back then maternity was only six months. So it was just too quick, but I had to do it back then, right? So then it was almost three years later when I was expecting her second. This is kind of when the white picket fence got blown up because everything had been going just fabulous.

And then I was three and a half weeks due with my second baby when just excruciating pain sent me into the emergency. And within minutes of lying down on my bed, I thought my water had broke. I was like, felt this gush. And I'm like, my water just broke. And I remember looking up at Cam and the nurse's face and they went white. and I looked down and the sheets were just soaked with blood. And the nurse just said, I'll be right back. And then she came back with the doctor who, fortunately, there was an OBGYN on call.

And they whisked me into the ER for emergency surgery. And when I became conscious, they had told me, the nurse had said, you have delivered a baby boy, but he's very sick. We believe he has a critical heart defect. and the team of specialists from Children's Hospital are coming to pick him up. And so, yeah, they came and took him away before even got a chance to hold him. I could kind of see as they wheeled him away, but he was, you know, covered in attachments and breathing tubes and everything that, breathing for him.

And that was with the beginning of all the changes and, I guess, kind of the purpose that inspired me to become a speaker. and an author because we would go through almost five months in children's hospital and Avery had four heart surgeries, including cold blue, respiratory rest, renal failure. Cam and I were staying in the parking lot of the hospital because they had hookups for RVs for out-of-town parents. So we were staying, and there was many times in the night we would get calls to come in because AV saturations had dropped to like 39, which are supposed to be around 100, and they

didn't think he would make it to morning. Yeah. Can I just ask, because Rebecca brought up a good point. We were on a drive, reading Smile Again, and one of the thoughts she had, which I think is important to bring up, is that you've been loving and preparing and excited about having this child and had so many months of just looking forward to it to see that baby rolled away and just barely get a glimpse and wonder, in the book, you just say it so clearly that you didn't know if you would ever actually get to meet Avery and that that's where your mindset was at and I think it's just important to highlight that because I think as like Rebecca saw that but that didn't click in my head

just from my perspective I wasn't thinking about the nine months prior and that that prep the excitement right and that's all went the opposite direction then where your mindset was going and so it's just important to me to highlight where your mindset was out which was this is an exciting time and then it goes the complete opposite direction yeah completely opposite of having a baby supposed to be one of the happiest times in your life and to find out that mine may not live.

Devastating. Humans have this unique ability to have coping mechanisms that kick in when you're needed because I thought it was the biggest wimp. I was like, I don't know how I'm going to be able to deal with this. But somehow you do. And I think that that possibly could be because of the mentors in my life

that instilled that strength in me that allowed me to just cope with it because we have a choice in life. We can curl up in a ball and wither away or we can, you know, stand up to it. So it is really all upon a choice of what we decide to do with it. I just felt lucky that I was, I made the right choice to, you know, to fight through it and be okay. So, because it gets harder because, you know, Jesse was experiencing delays. she was three.

And I had done a lot of studying on my own. And back then, people didn't know really a lot about autism because that would have been 23 years ago now. And I would go to doctors and they would say, oh, she's social, she has eye contact. She's not autistic. But I know, you don't know the ABCs at three years old but not know how to put a string of sentence together.

So anyway, so we're dealing with that and with Avery. And then in the middle of it all, my dad at home one day died suddenly have a heart attack at home and Avery was about three and a half weeks old and then it still had to have two more surgeries ahead of them and so it was like yeah this perfect little life I think I would put in the book it felt like a tornado and lifted me up and hurled me onto another planet but yeah you just you keep putting one foot in front of the other and that's when you draw on the strengths that you had from all the mentors growing up and that's when I realized, oh, I'm not a wimp.

And through the grace of God, we were able to bring Avery home after nearly five months with his heart all patched up. And I remember a surgeon saying, Dr. LeBlanc, a wonderful man, he's now retired. But he said, well, patched up his heart, but can't guarantee you what kind of shape he's going to be in. I remember thinking, I don't care what kind of shape he's in. I get to bring him home. I remember making a promise to God saying, you know, if I can bring Avery home, I'll be the

happiest mom in the world. And to this day, 23 years later, it still holds true. And so people would say to me, like, wow, you know, you've gone through all this adversity. Your daughter's autistic and your son, you know, he's had all this adversity with all this heart surgeries and heart problems, and yet you're just always so happy and positive. And I thought, well, it was obvious to me. I got to bring my son home, and Jesse and Avi were healthy. I met to a lot of parents that didn't get to bring their babies home.

So I just saw it from a different perspective, and I felt really blessed. And that's what I thought, hmm, I have to write a book. I have to write a book to show people how life can be wonderful, even if it doesn't go as we expected or plant. And then I thought, hmm, I can't write a book. I'm not smart enough to write a book. My English professor, if you didn't think I had the writing talent. And when we're young, we're very impressionable.

And we're taught to believe what the professionals say. So I pushed off the notion to write bravery because I didn't think that I could, I was smart enough. But it wouldn't go away. Kept coming back. And I thought, well, I guess I got to write this book. So that's when I started writing. But I think it took me five years or so to get it finally into the hands of people. It was a process, but fortunately, I had journaled during the months in the hospital.

So I had a lot to draw from when I started writing the book because I chronicled from the whole journey that we had. So, and of course, it brought back a lot of memories, and I think that's why a lot of people say with bravery, it's so emotional and passionate because I'd be typing away at my computer and, you know, all these, you know, all these, you know, memories would pop up, and I felt like I was there again, and I'd be like crying and piping, and, and, but it was carthartic, actually, to be able to, I think, to do that, to be able to do that, and take that experience and turn it into a purpose to help others. That, to me, was pretty cool, and now, you know, in my later years, feel that if we, if we can do something like that on earth to give.

back to others, whether it be writing a book, volunteering your time in the community, you know, whatever it can be money if you, you know, donating proceeds of things, just giving back in some way, is makes sometimes really crummy experiences not so crummy because something good has come from it. Absolutely. And I think that one element that it's easy to get caught in the adversity you faced, but you also set like an amazing example as a mother. And as a person who grew up in downtown Chilliwack. I had a lot of friends who did not have good mothers who didn't have loving, gentle, understanding, patient parents. And so they grew up in a world where that just wasn't the case. And I think a lot of people face that. And so both of your books are also a

testament to the approach a strong mother would take. And I think that that really comes through in both books, which is just an abundance of care and love. And that's so important for people to hear when I think also in Smile Again, you mentioned the impact social media is having on people that we don't ever get that compassion. I think there's been a few studies that have talked about the connection between like a parent and a child is like five minutes a day of like quality, real conversations of understanding each other. And so I think we're in a deficit of having real connections where we open up and both of your books go to that point of opening up and having the real conversations. Yes, thank you. And that is important, you know, thought to bring up because I did my TED talk about that as well, the thought of how, you know, with social media, you know, where we are all more connected,

but we're actually more disconnected because although we might have a thousand friends on Facebook, we're more lonely than ever. And we're missing those valuable, intimate connections with people, with family, like with, you know, growing up, you know, spending all the time, that I did with my grandma without our noses buried into our phones or laptops. Yeah. And when we would go to dinner at my husband's, my mother-in-law's house, she made us put the phones in the basket at the door.

Right. And I thought, wow, how great is that? We really need to do more of that so that we can pick up those stories and all that our elders can give to us. Right. Yeah. Yeah, and I just want to get more into the book because you're going through this experience, you're working with the doctors to try and get Avery, Avery finally gets home, and then from there what happens? Well, yeah, that was tough because, you know, for almost five months, I had the doctors and the nurses beside me, helping me, you know, supporting me, and then to be told finally, okay, he's all fixed, go home and have a nice life.

And you're like, what? Thankfully, we became really good friends, almost best friends, with one of Avery's primary nurses. Really? So on her days off, she would come out, which was great for me because I felt like, you know, I had that support and if anything went wrong. Because I had a little bit of PTSD after everything that happened. I can't even count how many times I called 911 when Avery would start crying and his face would go red. And I'm like, oh, my God, he's going to have a heart attack. and I'd call 911.

So it was a process to go through to come to terms with that, you know, he's going to be okay. And, you know, it takes time. Like with anything, I think it just takes time. But Avery, I think because we coddled him so much, he was quite, I don't know if we'd say spoiled, but he got away with a lot because we were just so happy he lived. And I remember saying to his cardiologist, because we would go free. for checkouts at Children's Hospital, and I would say, okay, you know, like, do these kids grow up to be the biggest spoils brats? Because, like, he, you know, we just let him get away with it. And he said, no, Kim, actually, they grow up to be very caring, kind, hearted, wonderful people. You can't spoil somebody with giving them too much love. And I thought, wow, you know, that's so true. But, yeah, we, our house was locked up like Fort Knox. I kid you not. Like, a couple times he, he, escaped. One time we were at the hotel in Kelowna of the ground, which is right on the water,

and we wake up in the morning, and Jesse is not talking yet. And we're like, where's Avery? And she points to the door. And we're like, oh, my goodness, we jumped out of bed and it's running down the hallways because we're like, you know, when did he leave? We're right on the water. What happened? You know, like, oh, my goodness, we're just panicking, and Pam franticly is pressing the elevator button. And then the door opens, well, there's Avery standing there and his diaper down to his knees, basically. So I think Jesse must have kind of tried to alert us that, because at that hotel, you know how the latch is on the top door so you can't get out for, they didn't have that. Oh, okay. So somehow he unlocked the door and took off.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, no, it was. So he, yeah, he put us through quite a bit. But, you know, Dr. Human, Avery's cardiologist, was right. Avery has turned into the most well-mannered, kind-hearted, this lovely, lovely soul. And so, yeah, he was right. Wow, that is so important because I do think that so many people go through these tough times and face challenges. But there's no platform that really wants to hear somebody's story.

And if you're just going through, say, Vaughn Foods and they're like, how's your day going? there isn't that opportunity to share what I think is an important story for our community. And I think too often we rely on big media corporations to tell the important stories for us. And that limits how many stories get told. And it removes the idea that someone within our own community could have their story told. And I think that this really shines a light on that we have role models right here. People who have faced insurmountable challenges, times where they didn't think they were going to be able to get. get through it, but found a way through. And that idea that someone can do that is a shining

light for youth in our community who are struggling with drug addiction, feeling like both their parents don't love them, knowing that there are people out there who write books telling their story what they faced and how they came through it and how family got them through that is the story to me and something that we don't hear enough of because it's all becoming more and more about whatever the current news is, and we're disconnecting ourselves from the idea that there are real important conversations to have that aren't about politics or current events or stuff like that. It's about who the person is behind the scenes and what they're facing and just losing my grandmother and seeing your story of like, when you're in the grocery

store, people don't know what you're facing. They don't know the load you're carrying. When you're just running out to grab something and you're just trying to keep it together when you have to go pick up that one thing, people don't realize that you are doing your very best. And we forget, and when we treat people in the stores, we just treat them like they're just normal people who could be facing things that we can't understand. And that's where I think that being more compassionate understanding is so important and just being humble enough to know, hey, I don't know what these people are going through. And I should just be compassionate and understanding until I have other information. And I think that came through in Smile again. Wow. Oh, that's

great to hear. Thanks, Erin. Well, and thank you for doing this podcast series that you do bigger than me, because it is something that we need. And I, you know, when I first watch your first one, I just came across it randomly. And I thought, well, I'll check this out. And I always like to know more about people who are doing local things in our community. And I was really impressed. I thought, yeah, we need more stuff like this. And you be so young, but yet so smart and intelligent to realize that gap in the community that you want to help fill is really quite remarkable. So I can see how, yeah, your grandma must have been just super fantastic to be able to instill a lot of those values

and you to want to be able to do something like this, especially at such a young age. Yeah, well, I definitely experienced it because before I started this, it was a few years earlier. And I was talking to Rebecca, like, I don't feel like this. there's anyone I can go to to have meaningful conversations with. Like, I'm not, I don't know everything. I'm not crazy intelligent about one thing, but I want to be able to talk to people who know more who can teach me things. And within my circle, it just didn't feel like there was somebody who knew more than me in the topic that I wanted to discuss. And so that made me feel like, okay, I respect all the people within my community, but I don't have a role model. I don't have

somebody to say, that is a person I want to be like. That is a person I'd like to emulate. Like some of the stuff they're doing here locally. Right. There's lots of people, celebrities and stuff that you can look to, but here locally and actually work with them and learn from them because I was always a person. I want to learn from you, like show me how to build something and I'll build it and I'll follow after, but I didn't have those role models to say, hey, this is the tools you need and this is how you do it.

And so it was all like all the podcast was through YouTube videos and learning through that. And it just came a point in time where I was like reading news articles and being. like this is not real. This is being played up a little bit to cause drama instead of having conversations. And there isn't a good platform where we can hear from people fully and go through not just their work, but their personal experiences, the adversity they face. We don't have that. And so that's what this all came about. And I'm grateful to have it because these stories need to be told. And as I mentioned in my post, it's about telling the stories that you don't get to hear unless you go searching for them. And that to me is,

your story and we're so lucky that you chose to share it because you could have said, nobody wants to hear this, like, I'm just one person, and that's the wrong mindset. So can you tell me what that process was like to decide to write bravery in a time where most people do just go, like, I told so many people that they could write a book on a topic that they're interested in, that they are passionate and tell me about, and they're like, no, I couldn't, like, who cares? And it's like, you care, and that's what matters. Right.

And so can you tell me a little bit about that? You know, again, I think it goes back to the mentors and our, you know, our influencers growing up because I just, I felt that, you know, my grandma was a giver and my whole family, they were givers. And I just felt that, you know, it's important. If we have something that we think we can give or help somebody else, and we, you know, we should take advantage of it and we should do it. And we should throw caution to the win because, yeah, I did at first think, I'm not smart enough to write a book and who's going to. going to want to read my book and um but it's bigger than that so you know you just got to say well you know let's see what happens what's the worst that could happen right and so many people don't take that leap of faith they let fear hold them back and you know fear almost held me back but i

said no you know no so that is what i you know really want to emphasize to people who want to do certain things but feel they can't for whatever reason it may be fear or insecurity or or what have you but it holds us back from doing so much one of my favorite things that i that i was able to do was speak at schools because i wanted to tell them that hey you know don't listen to the naysayers i almost didn't write my book because of what a professor thought of me and and uh he's since passed so he's not here anymore so i I don't feel bad that, you know, that, you know, I don't dislike him for that. It was just, that was, you know, how people were more abrupt back then.

But so I love to tell these children and the teenagers to follow through on what they want to do. If they have a passion for something, if they feel they can do something to better the world or better themselves, don't let fear or insecurities hold it back. Give it a try. What's the worst thing that could happen? And it was so rewarding. And I think, again, that's why we, you know, I find, I found, I found, very rewarding to hear people's thoughts on how I've affected them.

And to hear students say, wow, you know, I am going to write that book or I'm going to take those classes, Spanish classes that I didn't think I could. You know, like, I've had all kinds of people come to me. So that's pretty neat. If you can pay it forward, kind of like thing and give back, then I don't think there's a better reward in life than of public service. I agree. And I think that when I was starting the podcast, there was just this feeling that there's going to be somebody who shows up who says, no, you can't do that. And I don't know if you felt that when you were starting to write the book of like somebody just thinking, no, no, no, you have to have these credentials. But that's our mindset when we go into things. And in one of the sections you talk about how to approach things differently, it's on page 60, and it's eight simple ideas for getting started. And one of them is finding positive people. And I like that because we can surround our ourselves with naysayers who say, you shouldn't do that. No, just stick to your job. And I know

that Rebecca has faced that within her world of people just saying, oh, you want to do that? Well, you probably want to get these things done first and then maybe eventually. And it's like, you need to just know where you're going. And I think that that is the transition from becoming like a young person to an adult is the realization that nobody knows your path better than you. And it's a tough thing to accept because we like to defer to our parents. or to whoever it is to say, oh, what should I be doing? And that's the comfort zone of being like, other people know what I should be doing better than I do.

And that's just that at a certain point you realize that's not the case. What you want to do is what you have to do to make your life meaningful. And I think that you've done that and you took that risk. So from this experience of writing this book, what was some of the responses you got and what was it like to try and find a publisher? Very daunting. I was excited to finally get it out there because, like I said, it took, I think, at least five years from me writing it. And being a new and unknown author, not a famous person, you know, who Kimmel, yeah, no one wanted to pick me up.

I couldn't find a literary agent to represent me. I couldn't find a publisher who would want to publish. And I tried. I tried. I know what a rejection is like because I probably sent a... at least 300 query letters to publishers need more than that all getting back oh good luck but you know it's not right for us it's not right for us and so you know you hit a roadblock you know you finally you write this book and get it done and then boom another roadblock hits because you know

how because i didn't know anything about writing a book how do you publish a book you know so but then again if there's that will you know you just got to follow that will you got to follow that instinct that tells you to do it. We really need to rely on our instincts more than we ever know. So I said, okay, well, option B, self-publishing. So that means I've got to do it myself and I've got to put everything together and I have to pay for it myself too. So I just did my research and found a self-publishing company in Victoria who took it on and together we worked on everything from the title to the cover to the content to getting it out there to the public

and it did well for being a first time author that no one knew of it did it did really you know pretty pretty good but what was even if it you know just didn't reach didn't come a bestseller I was fine with that because that wasn't the purpose of writing the book I did want to share proceeds with children's hospital because that was a hospital who saved my baby's life. So to give back some of the proceeds was really important, but also the message that life can still be wonderful,

even if it doesn't go as we expected or plan. That was what was most rewarding when I would hear people's thoughts on that. People who have had great adversity and said that my book helped them believe that they could get through it too. That was more rewarding than anything, even if it reached, you know, just a few people. It was just exciting to feel that the positive impact of the purpose of me writing it was met. It was pretty cool.

Well, and I really like how you wrote it because it feels like a conversation. It feels like you're telling the story in a first world way where, like, I can relate to it. It's not distracting with complex words. It's not distract. It's not like you were trying to put on a hat of being somebody else who is a professional author who's done this before. It felt real and like it's right where everything was going on. You retell these stories and share what your mindset was. And I think that that's really personable, but many people can put on the hat of like, I'm going to go do this thing. So I'm going to go become this other

person. And I think it's cool because you brought with you what you wanted to tell. And I think if you had found certain publishers, maybe they would have said, actually, we want you to write it this way in a less personable way, and then we might have missed out on some of that. Yeah, good point. Actually, you're right, because I know from other authors that I've chatted with that they're like, wow, my book that I wrote, I don't know, is so different than what is on the shelves because they edited and edited and changed so much of it. So that is a good point that perhaps, you know, everything happens for a reason.

And I don't believe there is coincidences, which was kind of neat how, you know, smile again and it came across your path kind of at a time when you needed that. And so it's wonderful to be able to think that it's reached people on that level and being able to have some kind of solace for them. Absolutely. So let's carry on. So Avery's home, things are going well. What happens from there? Well, we kind of get settled. It takes a while and Jesse did receive her autism diagnosis. And that was, it was challenging because Avery also was diagnosed with a mild cerebral palsy because when he had one of his cold blues, lack of oxygen to the brain, they didn't know what kind of effects that was going to have on him when he was

older. And fortunately, it didn't have a lot of effect. He had stiffness on his right side, so his gait was awkward, and he became left-handed because his right hand was too stiff. but other than that you know he was really healthy so but we we had to go through a lot of physical therapy and Jesse had to have a lot of behavioral therapy so my my job was basically a mom that had to take the kids to all these different various appointments and and but it was it was okay because they were they were doing well they were happy and with Jesse's autism she's in the I would say the moderate spectrum so I feel blessed because she's very much a rule follower and she's very independent and she can do a lot of things

for herself. So, but yeah, it was, it was a lot of appointments and all going back and forth and, and, uh, uh, but at the same time, I think, you know, that, that promise that I had to, you know, feel so grateful that we were able to bring Avery home changed me because I, I always just had a lot of gratitude I carried with me every day. Yeah. Yeah. That's so important because you had been through so much during those times where it probably didn't feel like there was going to be an end. And to come out of it and to have two loved children is all that you wanted as a parent. Oh, and there was meltdowns. You know, I have to be honest, like, there was days of struggle. There was days when I'm like, oh my goodness, this is too hard to do. But they

didn't last long. And I think that it's okay to vent. Like, if we're having a bad day, we're human. There's going to be bad days. And don't beat yourself up on it. So many people carry that with them. They're too hard on themselves. And I thankfully have that notion to let it out and, but be okay with it. You know, we are human. It's going to happen. We're going to make mistakes. We're going to have bad days. It's part of life. That's awesome. Can you tell me about what your dynamic was like with Cam, your husband, and what going through all of that was like as a team? Because all of Obviously, it affected both of you. Yeah, you know, a lot of people say, wow, I don't know how you guys made it through

because a high percentage of divorce and separations for people with special needs children. And with all that we had went through with Avery and Jessie, you know, we had our share. And I, yeah, it was, like you said, teamwork. It was when I was feeling kind of weaker, Cam was there and it was strong and vice versa. So it was just really supporting each other. And just not being too critical on each other, not being too hard on each other. I mean, yeah, there was challenging times, and there's no doubt as any marriage. But, you know, we were fortunate to work through it.

One of my favorite sayings in the whole world is one of my favorite stories is Barbara Walters, who's a famous interviewer, which I talked the other day, because I think you're kind of like her a little bit the way you draw things out of people. But she was, I think it was her that was interviewing Paul Newman's wife, or her name escapes me right now. But they were married for like 50 plus years. And she said, so how have you been able to stay married to Paul Newman, the Hollywood heartthrob, be together for 50 years? Like most Hollywood marriages, barely make it a year. What is your secret?

And she's like, well, I don't, Joanne. Joan Woodward, that's her name. She said, well, I don't think there's really any secret. We were just lucky. We never fell out of love at the same time. And that just kind of resonated with me. And it was like, yeah, I mean, there's days when I'm sure, you know, count things. I don't even like you, you know, and vice versa.

We have those things. But we never at the same time, you know, so I think that that was kind of brilliant because we've been together now over 30 years. So that comes with some ups and downs. And that's, I think, what people need to realize, too, is to, you know, work through things and try to balance each other out and be there for when the one is not as strong, because we're going to have those days. Can I just ask then, do you, when you're having a tough day, do you view that as just something intrinsic to you that you are responsible for sorting out? Or because that does sound like there is that give and take, but it also requires the person to be able to look intrinsically within where they're at. in their day. And I find that a lot of my peers can have trouble doing that. It's always about

whose fault is it other than my own? And who, how can I make you the reason that I'm unhappy? And so we put that on to other people. And that's why relationships don't do well is because one side will be like, well, it's their fault. They're not doing these three things. So that's why I'm unhappy. Yeah. When you point a finger at someone, you have three pointing back at you. That's something I learned really early on. So it's, it's, there's two sides to a story. I think a big part of, of that is realizing that, you know, we are perfect. And be saying, sorry, I was wrong is, I think takes a bigger person than to not admit it or to point a finger.

Yeah. So, and letting go. Letting go. Like, we're, you know, we're not always perfect. You know, we're not always going to be nice. You know, we're going to have kind of days where, we're, we're going to have kind of days we're angry, we're mad, and we maybe say things that we don't mean. But we have to realize that, that it's just from the moment, and we have to let it go. Yeah, I definitely agree with you, and that's one thing I've run into a surprising amount with the podcast, is just guests being like, I don't know if I'm a role model, I don't know if I fit your criteria, or the second they come on, they'll be like, well, I'm not perfect. Like, let's just be clear. I'm not a perfect person. And it's like, I never thought you were. I just think you're setting an example. And it

might be more through your career or it might be more through your personality or your approach, but there's something about you that I think people can pull out. And that's why I want to have X person on is because they're doing something in the community that's making a difference. And too often, I think we get reactionary where if someone says you're doing something good, people's reactions are, I'm just not perfect though, so don't hold me accountable for how well I'm doing right now. And I think that that's probably the wrong mindset, because there is an avid flow. I know I'm not perfect. I know that I'm not always doing the right approach or I could have phrased things better. I make lots of mistakes every day. But the

podcast isn't just about the mistakes. It's about what are you doing as a whole that is making a difference? How are you approaching things? And that's what I'm looking for in this. But I do get that reaction a lot of people saying, oh, this platform is probably not for me. I'm just, I'm not a role model. And it's like, well, by your own definition, most people aren't role model. I don't consider myself. I don't walk around and go, hi, I'm Aaron the role model. I don't view myself as that. But it is something that others bestow upon you as someone to emulate. And I think that recognizing that you can do great things is a good thing. And we all make mistakes. And that doesn't need, we don't need to add those words in of like, I'm not perfect. Because that's

just a given. We're humans. And just like you said. And so I do think that we get too connected to having too much praise and then we start to push it back too soon. And that's just one thing I've noticed with a lot of podcast guests is being like, no, I'm not that person. Don't confuse me with a good person who's making a good impact. And it's like, why are you so afraid? Like, I know you're a person. I'm sure you make lots of mistakes. I'm sure you, like, get mad at people when you're driving down the road. But that's separate from the good things you do. Right. Right. And so I think that this really highlights the importance of recognizing the good because you recognized the hospital staff you were working with and you recognize the people who are making the difference to help

you through these tough times. And you didn't, the book isn't just about you and your triumph. It's about a community's triumph. And I think that that's what resonates the most is because it's not just one person. It's not how I conquered these problems. It's how I worked with a community and we got through it all together. And the fact that you have connections with the healthcare workers just goes to that. So can you tell me a little bit more about that? Yeah. You know, that's so true because without those support workers, we couldn't do it. I couldn't do it alone. If I didn't have all the support that I did from the Chilocks Society for Community Living, for the Chilac Developmental Center, all these places that supported me with the therapies that the children

needed, it would have been overbearing for me to deal with that. So to people out there, you know, utilize the resources that they need. Because a lot of times, People think they don't need it, you know, but, you know, that's not true. We all need support at certain times of our life, no matter whether we have children who are special needs or we're going through any of our own health problems. We all need support, so to be able to reach out. And that's why, you know, things like your podcast are great because it highlights what is out there because a lot of people don't know what is available out there.

So to be able to shed some light that we have a lot of resources. our community to help us get through these challenging times and to reach out and get that support. Absolutely. And just the way that you approached it in the book was just so well written because you talked about how like as a mother you wanted to do anything and everything to make the difference. But I think you said like I'm not a scientist or I'm not like a doctor. So I have to rely on other people. What was that like to have everything in somebody else's hands and just hope they were making all the right calls? Because I think somewhere in there you talked about how the doctor that was going to be operating had just had like a giant cup of coffee

and this person's about to start moving around with your child's heart and so what was that experience like yeah you have to let go of what you can't change or what you can't do that and that's really important because I try to always not focus on things I can't I don't have any control over but it's hard it's not easy because yeah the morning of surgery when you know, Dr. LeBlanc had to operate on every's tiny little heart the size of a walnut where they had to cut and switch the great arteries, which was the size of a pin, and any kinking wouldn't mean a heart attack. That's like, you know, oh my God, do you imagine the pressure on the doctor or the surgeon? And he goes walking in early in the morning. He's, you know,

got this big cup of coffee and these big hands around the cup of coffee. And I'm just looking and I'm going, I remember I think I said to camp, I hope that's decalph. Because, you know, what else can you do? I didn't have any control over it. I had to let it go. But that's okay because, you know, we have our parts and we have to understand that, you know, we do what we can. But I did have a great little story of when Avery was in ICU

and on life support and in renal failure. And it was a really critical time because if you go a certain amount of time without urinating or having a bowel movement, you're going to die, you're going to poison yourself. So it had been almost a few days since Avery had done anything, and, you know, the doctors would come, you know, around the bedside, they'd do the rounds, right? And this one particular time, I'm rubbing at the bottom of Avery's feet because I remember thinking, reflexology, because I knew a little bit about reflexology. And so I remembered thinking, well, I wonder where the kidneys are.

So if I can stimulate Avery's kidneys to pee. So I go running upstairs to the library, and I go on the computer, which was quite archaic back then, and I type up reflexology in a human body, and kidneys, where are kidneys located? And I found where the kidneys were located on the bottom of the feet. I ran downstairs, and I started massaging his kidneys, and the doctors came by on their rounds, and they're like, what are you doing? And I said, I'm stimulating every kidney, so he'll pee. And they're like, okay.

And the next day or that night he did. Whether it was dialysis, was it me? Was it, I don't know. I like to think maybe I had a little part in that. Yeah, well, and it gives you that sense of purpose, and it allows you to be involved in the process, whatever that looks like. And I think that that's that energy that we provide other people that is love.

And like there are a lot of studies that show children who are in these serious circumstances, is hearing their mother's voice makes the impact and plays a role. And I think too often we lean towards science to disprove those things where it's not necessary. Like, there's no, science isn't about just disproving the human experience. And there are aspects of how we live our life that cannot fit within a scientific lens that is silly to try and apply in a scientific circumstance where feeling loved is not really scientific. It's not something that we go and research how loved we feel via some chart.

But knowing that your mother is there trying to do whatever she can makes a difference to a human. And I think that that's so important that we not put too much weight on science in certain circumstances where there doesn't need to be some sort of competition between what's scientifically factual that somebody would read from a book and what the experience of is a mother and son having that experience. there's no need to have them overlap. I loved that in the book. Yeah, you can combine the two, right? I think that we keep an open mind and whatever we feel works, it's worth giving a try. And I don't put my thoughts into one way or the other, but it's a combination of everything, I think, that provides love and healing and support.

Yeah, and I think that science does a good job of telling us what the material world looks like, but it doesn't tell us how to act. And that's where these books are important is because they are, although you don't say it, it is a guide on how to tackle adversity and how to go through with humility and understanding and how to treat everyone right, which is what I wanted, I created a definition of what a role model was

and it's about somebody who's willing to put their family first, their friends first, their community first, before themselves. But it's not only that, it's about doing that in a sustainable way where you can make that work over a year, over five years, over your whole life. And that's a very tricky balance to find because we do fall down. We do make mistakes. We do go down bad paths at certain points. But this book, to me, is a guide on if you're in a dark place, the first few pages are

that insight into somebody else's dark place and how you were coping with something that is insurmountable to me still and incomprehensible to go through. And so I do think that the information within this book transfers over to youth struggling with drug addiction, youth feeling like there's nobody out there who cares, people who have felt alone and disconnected during the pandemic. I do think that it's the same, the contents are how to behave under trying times. And that's what you wrote about. Right, right. Yeah. Thank you.

That's great. I'm so happy that you were able to take the time to read the book to be able to talk about your podcast because it's, it is a, kind of relevant to the times that we're going through. I had wanted to write Smile Again for a long time now. But, you know, you're busy. You're kids in life and work, and I never had a chance. I knew the name. I knew it was going to be called Smile Again, and I knew the premise of it.

And then COVID hit. And I wasn't working. We weren't going anywhere. We weren't doing anything. And it just occurred to me. This is when Smile Again is supposed to be made. This is when we're going to be. need it more than ever now so as i said earlier there's no such thing as coincidences things

this happened for a reason and so it was the timing that was was perfect because i thought now i can share my philosophies and my stories of how i uh got through adversity and not only me but my mentors people who i looked up to that gave me the courage and strength to um follow through and to to keep going. So that's what's the kind of neat about Smile Again is it's a lot of different stories. Somebody asked me, you know, if you could sum up what Smile Again is about in a sentence, what you'd be saying. And I'm like, oh, that's hard for me because I can talk and I ramble. I'm turning into my mother. And sorry, mom. But I, yeah, I thought, well, you know what? It's, it's kind of like chicken soup for the soul with a twist of turn your wounds into wisdom.

I thought that kind of captures what it's about in a nutshell. I agree. And I think that the approach is so important because we are seeing record numbers of people with depression, the suicide rates have increased. And so there are real things that are going on. And I think it touches on that and it addresses this feeling of disconnect within our communities because now we're being recommended to use social media as a primary platform of connecting with people. when we all know that that doesn't seem to be working and not seem to be a viable solution. And so understanding that we all have dark times

and feeling less alone in those circumstances, I think, important. What was the process like to write this and how long did it take? Well, you know, it's quite something because as I mentioned, it took me over five years to write bravery. Well, it took me 10 months to write smile again.

Yeah. And it just was all bottled up inside. And it just flowed. Like every morning I'd get up, get my coffee, get the Jesse ready for the day because she was at home too because her program that she goes to was closed as well. So, and Avery was home as well doing UFV online. So, you know, we would get everything settled and then I'd sit at the computer. And sometimes it wouldn't be until 1 o'clock in the afternoon and I would stop.

And just, yeah, I just was, I could have stayed there all day, which was completely different from how bravery was done. So I did it very, very quickly, because it was all in there. And I pulled some of the resources from my blogs, because I've blogged over the years. So I kind of took some of my blogs. Because when the inspiration hits you, you feel like, okay, I've got to tell this. I've got to share this. And so that was really resourceful for me, was to pull from some of my blogs, certain experiences that I've gone through that helped me and to put that down in the chapters.

So it just flowed really smoothly, which was quite different from how it worked with bravery, but I was very grateful. And it was also really excited because I thought, okay, now I'm finished the book. We're back to the process of querying literary agents and publishers. I'm like, oh, great. I remember how much fun I had doing that last time.

But I was lucky this time, perhaps because I had written a book and all these years later, and I did a TED talk and was a TED coach and judge. You know, I thought, maybe I had a bit more credits in my belt that people would think, okay, maybe, well, people will want to read her book this time. Yeah. I wasn't really sure, but, or was it maybe just because this is what the world needed right now, was it was a book about smiling again.

But for whatever reason, I was very blessed because a publisher from Ohio picked me up. And so they don't do a lot of the more. marketing. But they did all put the book together. My artist friend painted the cover. It was really important. I wanted to signify beauty coming through the cracks. So I thought that was kind of a poignant title. So I would send them all the, you know, the copies and everything. And together we worked on getting it put together. And then, so they did it all for me. So it wasn't like the first time where I did it all myself. So that was a blessing because I didn't really like doing that part. That's not really what my strengths are.

And that's, I think, another thing about human qualities is to realize that we all have our strengths. They're not good at everything. And that's okay that we're not good at everything. So this time I was pretty lucky to have them support me with that. And my marketing team that I've had for years, the Vanden Speck Marketing, they're local. They work out for Chilliwock and Abbotsford, great, great team that have really helped me get the word out there about Smile again. Wow. So that's, you know, you need that support because that's where social media does come in handy.

So that's what I talked about in my TED Talk was a balance. We need a balance. That's what it's all about. We have these lovely resources, but we tend to overdo them. But if we just sit back and use what we can and find that balance, then we'll be much further ahead of the game. I completely agree. And Rebecca and I obviously, we drastically changed how we looked at our social media. I almost never post as myself anymore unless it's something relevant and important.

Right. But, like, I changed how I look at posting on Instagram. Like, I used to post, like, a photo of, like, landscape and be like, huh, like, some weird caption. And it just felt like I was obligated to because everybody else posts on Instagram every day. Right. And so you're just part of this ecosystem that posts, and you look at the likes and you go, huh, I didn't, like, seven likes or 12 likes, and then you're worried about that. But once I started the podcast, it's like, I don't care.

about how my post does personally I care about how these posts do and what are people looking for what posts do they appreciate what's what's hitting the the deep part of the conversation what is meaningful to people that's going to get them listening and paying attention and so I looked at it as more of a way of getting the word out on something rather than I don't know why I'm used like now I don't know why I was using Instagram five years ago because what was I trying to tell people like what was the purpose yeah there was no purpose behind it it was just fitting in and everybody else uses Instagram. They use Facebook. I have to use Facebook too because people are going to say, oh, did you see my post the other day? And you're going to be like,

I don't know what you're talking about. And so it was all about that. And once you switch your thinking to, I want to get the word out on what I'm doing, I want to get the word out on this person, then it changes your relationship because I've had people on it. I'm like, they don't have a big social media, so I need to do the pushing. And how do I do that in a respectful way? How do I try and get the word out on different platforms. And so it's changed how I look at social media as more of a tool to reach people rather than a place to try and fit in and post photos that everybody else is posting photos of and stuff.

Interesting. And so it's been interesting to have that balance come over Rebecca and I, where both of us just used to try and fit in and now we see it as a tool to reach people. Yeah, that's exactly right. And it's nice to be able to post some uplifting things, like cute pictures of your of, you know, your dog doing something funny. That's cute, too, but, you know, it can be overkill. Like, some people, like, overdo it.

But that's kind of fun, too, just to do light posts that are funny or cute or uplifting or enlightening, but not to really be obsessed with having to do it and how many likes you get. And sure, it's a natural human response to feel good when people are giving you praise about your posts or saying good things about, you know, all that, that meal looks delicious. or you're such a good cook or things like that. It feels good, but it shouldn't really define us. Yeah, and it can become an addiction where you're looking for that approval because maybe you're not getting it in your work.

Maybe you're not getting it in your home life. And that's where people will go there and not strike the balance because they're going there as an escape to try and get feedback that they want to hear. And instead of having the conversations. And so one question that I did have is, how did you approach conversations during these dark times? because I find that people approach things the absolute worst when they're in the absolute worst situation. But it doesn't sound like any of that was approached that way, yet it seems to be a tendency.

When people I meet that are angry or frustrated, they do not respond at all well. Kindly. But you seem to have had that approach, at least for the most part. So can you tell me any times that that didn't go well or what your process was to try and get through this? do you mean like certain experiences or what like yeah how did you keep some chapters particularly or exactly what was it like to be in such a dark place and have to go to the store and have people maybe be rude and you're just like okay i can't have that right now like i have enough going on without you adding on yeah yeah what was that like well you know meditating in walks really

you you become grounded and you don't let that interference get in your way because there's going to be negative people and there's going to be naysayers out there and yeah when you're in a dark place you typically want to hunker down and and uh but for for me i guess with my experience is just knowing that we know we can come through these challenging times um helps you to get through it but in each each each endeavor each each challenging experience a person struggles when they get through it become that much stronger because if we had this perfect white picket fence princess life we wouldn't know the beauty like just the other day so we've had as you know a lot of rain it's been windy

it's been rainy and i have to walk my chubby little dog every day and i need some exercise because my gym is closed so rain or shine i got to get out there and walk and i go through the trails by little mountain there and then through the graveyard and so forth and it's been not fun and my dog hides under the bed he doesn't want to come out I have to ring the doorbell to get him to run out but now he's on to it so now he knows it's me ringing the doorbell so now he I have to disguise my voice as if I'm a guest entering the house but anyways I see squirrel side paths but yeah so anyways it's been just crummy weather and we've not liked to be enjoying our walks and so then the sun came out the other day I think it was Tuesday and I just

went on my walk and it was like wow this is beautiful the sun in my face that just everything's glisting and so clean the rain has washed it all the way and i thought yeah that's what it's about it's about you know when we find those silver linings when we you know this too shall pass you know the sun is going to come up one day and and it's going to be a nice walk so it's just knowing that it's just having those experiences. But had you not had the storm and the rain, you wouldn't appreciate those beautiful sunny days. So I think that that's what helps me a lot, but it also helps me understand people going through a darker time. And that's probably why I felt compelled to write the books, was to show them how it can be done. We can, you know, find those silver linings. They are there.

So just to point that out and show examples, because when we lead by example, it's so much easier because then we see that, okay, well, if they can do it, I can do it, you know, and that's just, yeah, part of probably the process of my inspiration to write small again. Awesome, because one story that I'd like you to share, because I think it illustrates the point I'm about to make, which is I think that you have a philosophy when it comes to coincidences, that you don't accept them as coincidences. And I think that that's an important element of your philosophy within this book because you can easily look at things as a coincidence. And you can say things just happen and it doesn't matter. But the way you've

approached this podcast so far and your book was that nothing is a coincidence. And I think the element there is that if it's sunny, you take it as an opportunity to utilize. And that's a really important element that I think a lot of people miss out on because you did that with the Wally story as well. You didn't view when you saw Wally as just a coincidence. You took advantage of it. You had the conversation. You connected. You invited him over and you connected. You didn't take it as just a, oh, we're just here at the same time. Whatever. Have a good day. And so that element, I think that when tough times happened or when things occur, take it as an opportunity. And I think that that's where saying that it's not a coincidence is taking it as an

opportunity rather than just viewing it as the world is a random place and whatever happens is just the way it is taking it as hey this person's in front of me i have this opportunity so can you share the wally story for people who haven't read the book yet sure but before that i just have to say how old are you 25 you're so smart for 25 oh my goodness there's like yeah it's amazing to be how you've you pull all that from the conversations and from the book it's a really good book it's fascinating. I'm just so impressed at your wisdom for such a young age. But yeah, I don't believe in coincidence. For example, I find four-leaf clovers all the time. That's the picture of bravery as a four-leaf clover. And it's not a coincidence. It's, it can't be. You can't find that many

four-leaf clovers in a month, like 20, you know, almost every day on your walk. You know, that can't be coincidence. So that's a comfort to me, knowing that, like, for example, with the four-leaf clovers, the, the buoyancy of that is when I was young, I would find four-leaf clovers all the time on my grandma's farm. And my grandma would say, how do you find them? Like, I'll be riding on my horse and get off and see a four-leaf clover. And I said, well, I don't know. And she'd be like, I never found one. So when I was going through the harrowing time after bravery was born, I'm inside the hospitable at the time. I'm not outside. But every time I go outside or sit down, I look down and there's a

four leave color. Well, how can that be a coincidence? And I'm not looking for them. And so I'm, I'm so glad I see life that way. And I want other people to see life that way, too, because it isn't a coincidence. And when people say, oh, that's just a coincidence, I'm like, no, it's not. It signifies much more. And it's wonderful when you, because you draw strengths from that kind of thing. And so, yeah, the Wally story was wonderful because he was one of my dad's best friends and if we we have experiences in life where a situation happens and we're angry at somebody or some person and we let it ruin our day and it's like oh my goodness I'm letting that person ruin my day bring that negativity in maybe it was somebody you know a relationship with or just

some rude person at the store you know or what have you but I always have tried to say you know I'm not going to let that person ruin my day or I'm not going to listen to what they say so on my bike ride, I was, you know, kind of going through, you know, I wasn't having greatest time. I was, you know, not feeling wonderful. I was like carrying negativity a little bit. And so, and then I ran into Wally and hadn't seen him for years and he was my dad's best friend. And, oh, I, you know, think of my dad every day and miss him dearly. And we just, you know, how things happen. We lose touch with people. And so Wally was in the passenger seat. And there was no. one in a driver's seat and he was parked on the side of the graveyard and I knew it was him

right away and he knew it was me right away and so I thought off my bike and gave him a big hug because of COVID of course and it was so good to see each other and and you could tell he was he was not long for this earth he was on an oxygen tank and his skin was gray and but it was lovely to see him and I'm like what are you doing here all he said oh my grandson is taking flowers up to Rina's grave, which is his wife, Rita. And I thought, oh, isn't that wonderful, you know, that he's still, after all these years, because she passed away, I think, over 25 or more years, and he was still coming and putting flowers on her grave.

And, but he said, I'm too old, and with this oxygen tank, I can't make it up the hill to her grave site, so my grandson comes and does it. And I'm like, I said, oh, that's so. nice of him to do that for you what a great guy and and he's like yeah and he says oh boy he says didn't we have some great times together you know you and my dad and i said yeah that was i said oh my goodness i said some of the stories my mom still tells i just i love to hear them and he's going on and about some of the stories and and a tear comes to his eye and i was like oh my goodness like what and he says you know and i don't know why he said it i don't know what prompted him where

it came from but he said you know Kim don't ever stay mad at anyone he says life is too short and don't bring that pain on yourself that you don't need to and i just it just was like you know i got goosebumps it's a hot sunny day and i i got goosebumps because it was just like what i needed to hear at the time and just to release that that negativity and i just you know thought that was just very wonderful and not a coincidence that happened at that time. And we did reconnect. And my mom and I went over to his place and played crib, and we did have some, a few times together before he did pass. And now he's up there with his, with his wife. And I go and pay my respects quite often because it's upon my path of where I walk. But it was also neat that summer. He says, Kim, do you think, he says,

do you think you could water every once in a while come and water this plant? And I said, yeah, I said, you you know what, Wally? I said, I come up here every day. I said, so I will water that plant. And he says, well, you don't have to do it. I said, no, I'll come up here every day anyways. He says, well, thank you. He says, well, it's not that far from where there's a water faucet. And I said, no problem. I don't mind. So every day that summer, I went except for we're on summer holidays. So I got my graveyard worker friends to water it for me. That's awesome. Yeah. We kept that plant going all summer long until the deer's came by and ate it. Yeah. Wow, that's so awesome. and I think another point that you just landed on

is the importance of stories and I think as humans we really enjoy meaningful stories and I think that that's another thing that young people who are facing poverty and stuff we miss out on that because there aren't like my getaway

for myself we were in a food, unstable home when I was growing up and so getting to go to my grandparents' house and feel free and not stressed about food not stressed about what's going on in our community, is there drug deals going on, those types of things, having the space to just have a story and have that culture and have that

sense of community. And when strong families can tell a story and everyone remembers it and they're all laughing and crying and having that, that's what brings people together. But I do think that it's something that people in poverty miss out on because there aren't always those great stories of like, remember when we were all together and we all treated each other nice. It's like that's few and far between. That's a moment for them in comparison. And I think that that's where

these stories are so important to share because there are people who are going to read this book and go, I never had parents like that. I never had a house like that. I've barely had my own space. I don't have any stories of my parents being great and funny and bringing everyone together. And so sharing

those stories gives people that sense of culture that this is the community I live in and I have a community of people who do share stories and do have stories to share with people because if I go out into the world and people are like, oh, you're from Chilliwack, what's Chilliwack all about? I can say, okay, well, we have some great authors here who have shared some harrowing stories of what they've been through, and I can be proud of my Chilawak because these are the people within it. And that's what gives

a community strength, is being able to draw on your experiences and say, hey, I know Kim Gamal, I know Angela Murphy, they've written these books, they make this impact on the community, and I can be proud of that. And that's what I'm trying to pull from because too often we can be like, oh, what's so great about Chilawak? We have some mountains. And it's like, we have so much more than that

if you just dig a little bit deeper. And I think that that is where people who have tougher lives can read this book and smile again because the stories within it are stories of love, care, culture, community. And so what is it like to live and have so many strong stories for yourself to be able to share with people?

And like, do you get, is that exciting for you to be able to share these stories for people? Yeah, thanks, Eric. You know, it's never too late for people. So, you know, we all are going to have adversity, whether it's growing up in an impoverished home or later in life, abusive relationship, or illness strikes us. Like, there's always going to be adversity that hits us. But it's what we do with it that makes the difference. And it's never too late. One of the stories in the book is, I think it's a chapter devoted.

to do it's never too late because of my friend who is in her late 70s who is starting to write a book you know it's it's never too late and and why you know i remember her saying well you know what if i die before it's finished i said so what if you die before it's finished you've got some chapters of a book that's great it didn't have to finish it so it's it's you know it's it's a wonderful rewarding to have people take that away and maybe do something that they thought it was too late So it's funny because the book, even though it's just newly published, I've been getting some feedback from it already, and I'm overwhelmed with the wonderful responses. And each one is, it's funny, each one is though it was the first one because it touches everybody differently and in a different way. And so it's like the first time I've heard a compliment from somebody.

you don't get tired of it you never get tired of it because it's touching each person differently and so that's the biggest excitement of it all is and i'm always surprised it's like i'm surprised to like it i could get a thousand people say how great it was and i'm still surprised i don't know it's just funny it's how i am that's how i'm wired i guess you'd say well and absolutely because this i'm sure they're relating it to their own experience and that has meaning when they tell you that like I couldn't I just focused on this one chapter and I couldn't get past it and that was just so meaningful to me and that's where those impacts you don't know what the reach is going to be in those moments and I know we were talking about that prior to the podcast that when you write a book like this you don't know when somebody changes their approach with their boss or reconnects with their father or does things because of your book because it's unlikely they'll ever tell you oh I reconnected with my grandfather because you wrote this and it reminded me of my relationship and it was time to mend fences. And so the depths and the impact that these can have can be underestimated.

And same with the podcast. I have no idea if somebody decides to start a business because of this or do something differently, approach people differently because of it. And it's unlikely that I'll ever get to hear that story of how they approach things. And I think that that's where we have to say, we will never know the reach of it, but it's still worth doing because we'll never know. And it's important that you do it because we don't know. Yeah, and if everybody had the mindset of, well, no one's going to listen or no one's going to,

then nothing would ever get done. So you just got to say, well, follow your heart, follow your passion, and just know that you feel like you're doing the right thing. It's kind of like a call. Yeah, absolutely. And so one other part that I found really important about your book is that it comes with an idea. And I don't know if you know this, but we have lived historical. in an individualistic society, which means that we operate as a family unit and communist countries

operate as like everyone is the exact same and your family doesn't really matter. And that's how communism has approached things. And so I really like the emphasis on family because it seems like so many things are shifting within our communities that is moving us away from family. And so can you just tell me a little bit about your philosophy when it comes to your family and then we'll lead into what your family dynamics were like and are like now. Yeah, well, you know, some of us are fortunate to have a big family or a small family. We're all really different. And some aren't close and some are close and some are close and some have eight siblings and some have none.

So it's all different. But if you have family support, you want to draw on it. And that can be, you know, I even find like some of our, you know, what's that saying? You can pick your friends, but you can't pick your family. So even if we can draw on support from outside of our family, they become family. So it doesn't have to be blood-related, to be family, because unfortunately, there are families that don't have great families. I know people who have come from very broken homes and didn't have the opportunity to have the love of a family. But if you bring in those people and bring them under your wing and give them love and support,

then they become your family. Having Jesse, with my daughter being autistic, she goes to a program where she does a lot of great things in the community. She delivers meals on wheels and she works at the Salvation Army and walks dogs at the SPCA. Some things have been changed and altered during this COVID time. but a lot of the participants in her program have special needs and don't have family. They live with caretakers and caregivers. And some of them I've become very good friends with.

And they love those children and those special needs people that they live with in their home like that. They are the mothers, like that's their children. And that just melts my heart that there's people out there that do that. So they're not blood-related, but they love them as their own. And so family is a very broad sense for me. It doesn't have to be somebody that you're related to. And there are people out there that can give you the love and support that you need if you don't have that at home.

Yeah, absolutely. And so what are your family dynamics now, like now that things of your children are growing up? What has life been like now? It's really great. I mean, it's an adjustment, you know, because we have this preconceived notion of what's going to happen. We're going to graduate, go to school, maybe get a degree, get married, have children, have grandchildren, and, you know, so on and so forth. Well, not like that with me. Different family dynamic altogether.

So big adjustment. It's not what we're taught to believe it's going to happen. For example, when some of my friends' children started getting married, you know, their daughters are. were getting married and their dads were walking down the aisle and then they started having babies and I remember you know I was for a spell feeling like oh you know that's not going to happen with with jesse you know she's not going to get married and she's not going to have children and so it's different it's not the typical family dynamic and for a spell that can get you down because it's not what you had hoped for and but then I think you know but I have so

many blessings from Jesse. I get to have her to myself. And that is a joy because she is always happy, always smiling, tells me how much she loves me every day. So my goodness, who cares that I don't have that typical life of what I thought it was going to be? It's much more richer in that sense. So it's just about spinning, spinning it around. People may think, oh, it was me, didn't go the way I thought, yeah, but you know what, look at the good things that did come from it. And Jesse is my little sidekick and lover to pieces. And one day, she'll kind of live semi-independently. But for right now, I just cherish the time that we have together.

So it's, you know, that old saying, making, you know, lemonade of lemons and just feelings blessed that I have that time with her that I wouldn't have had had things gone a different way. And Avery, well, he's going for his business degree and minor in English at UF.E. So he'll get his degree in a couple more years. And he works part-time at Home Depot. And he's just doing great. I mean, it was hard because when you've been so overprotective for him,

like when he gets his license and he kind of breaks free, you're just like, ah, you know, because you just know that feeling of coming. so close to losing them, it never really completely goes away. But you learn to accept it and find the great things that come from it. So, and yeah, it's great, you know, to still be able to go and family holidays together. Just before COVID hit, last February, the four of us went to Mexico and had had a fabulous time together. So you just look for the wonders that come from things that aren't expected. That's amazing. That's such a good story. you retell the story of Avery and he was in a race? Oh, yeah. That was a really good story.

Well, you know, yeah, he had the determination of a giant because he, you know, he had these limitations with his cerebral palsy and his awkward gait, but yet he had the desire to be an athlete. Like he, you know, because both myself and Cam were quite athletic when we were younger. My husband went to SFU, and he was top 10 in hurdles for the track team. So very athletic, played soccer up until a few years ago, to the joints, you know, start giving away. So Avery had that in him, but he didn't have the power, the notion of the passion on the inside, but his outer body wouldn't allow that to come through. So it was hard because he would get so frustrated.

And as a parent, you want to help them and do it for them, but you can't, you know. So it's a struggle that you learn to deal with and get through. And sports days was painful because he would try so hard, but he couldn't do well. And I would say, well, you don't have to go today, honey. No, I'm going. And I thought, well, he's teaching me the determination and not to run away. I'm like, this is remarkable that this, you know, 7-year-old is teaching me perseverance and determination.

So it's how you kind of look at things. And you still learn. I'm still, you know, I'm 54 and I'm still learning. But so this particular day, it's a, I don't know, 50, 75-year dash. And he's going. And he's not last. He's actually not last. And then he bites it.

He wipes out and he just goes tumbling. And then he's not getting up. And I'm like, well, you know, petrified. He's crying. He's not hurt. He's just, he's crying. He's on his knees and he's crying because he's wiped out and he's embarrassed because all the parents on the sidelines were watching him. And as a parent, you just, you freeze, you just don't know what to do. And all of a sudden, one of the other parents, one of the parents of a friend of ours, comes in, remember, swooped them up, puts him on his shoulders and finishes the race with avi on his shoulders.

Well, there wasn't a dry eye in the sidelines. Like men, women, mother's fathers, all were crying because it was so emotional. And I'm, of course, you know, crying. And, you know, Avery, you know, got off of remit's shoulders. And he was, you know, he actually started to laugh a little bit because he couldn't believe that this had happened. And it was like almost like it's seen from a movie or something that you would see. So, yeah, it's how you perceive things. But he, you know, he ended up getting surgery where they cut his attention.

Achilles tendon to stretch it and cast it. So now he has much... What was that like? Was that hard for him? I could not imagine. Like when I even touch my Achilles tendon, I'm just... Oh, yeah. It was...

Well, it was... He seemed okay with it. He's resilient. Like, I'd tell you. But Cam and I were like, oh my God, back to Children's Hospital again. Oh, my goodness. Here we go. But it did help because they cut it in two places,

stretched it and cast him for, I don't know, six or eight weeks. He didn't really like having the cast. But it was great because after they took the... cast off, he had much more mobility in his legs. And then we were back to the hospital again because Jesse had bad scoliosis. So she had a metal rod fused to her spine. So we're back at Children's Hospital again when she was 14. Wow.

Yeah. What is it like to have that resource there? Because obviously, I know Chilawak Hospital wouldn't be able to meet those needs. What was it like to be able to go to a place where you could have confidence in? Yeah, it's just remarkable, life-saving. what Children's Hospital does and all they help and support. That's why I thought it was really important to support with proceeds of my book because they're just, you lean on them for so much.

And I didn't even know, until Avery was born, I didn't even know there was a children's hospital, what it looked like, what that was about. And so often we don't until we need it. And we're completely reliant on it and then we're aware of the resources. Yeah, exactly. but it's one of the best hospitals in the world as far as the care that they give to the little ones, that's for sure. Wow, that is so great to hear because it's got to be so difficult to put your hands to your side and say,

okay, you're taking this on and you're the doctor and to be in that circumstance and trust their service and their care, that they care hopefully close to what you care about making sure that everything goes well. Right. Yeah, exactly. And it's not easy. you don't get used to it. You would think, you know, okay, well, Avery went through the first time, oh, this will be nothing. And it's like, no, this is still something.

And parents would say to me all the time, you know, if their child broke or bone or something, they'd be like, oh, I shouldn't complain. It's nothing compared to what you've been through. And I said, no. I said, any time your child has hurt themselves or in pain or cut themselves or sick, you know, you feel angst. It doesn't, you know, whether it's a heart defect or a skin knee,

you don't like when your children get hurt. it's not a matter of degree of how right yeah and we get into that bad habit a lot where we compare ourselves to somebody else's circumstance and say well i'm not where you are so you have it way harder than me so i just don't get it but you're still facing something like it doesn't remove that you're facing a challenge and you have to overcome that challenge regardless of other people's exterior realities as well yeah yeah yeah so moving a little bit forward where do you hope um this lands within the community because I think that it's obviously having the impact, but what have you seen in terms of response? Because it's interesting to me because we live in a community that's so

diverse, both in faith, but in our politics and all of these different things. And we have so many different leaders in our community. What has the response been like for you in terms of living in Chilliwack? And was it exactly what you expected, or was it surprising? then? Yeah, I think it's a bit too soon to tell because it's just, just touch the surface. It's just getting out there. Like, Save On Food's just got the books on the shelf yesterday. So it's just starting to affect the community. So I look forward to see how and what it does out there in our community. And hopefully, you know, we'll get, you know, as the time goes by, I'll get to hear more feedback of how it affects people.

And I'm still working at looking at who could benefit from it. So organizations like Chilwaukee Society for Community Living and people that need resources of putting the books in those kinds of communities where people will be able to maybe find some resource or strength from it. The Ann Davis Transition House. There's so many different things that we have here in our community to support people who are having challenging times and going through struggles. So hopefully it will have a positive effect. And I'm really good friends with the mayor, Kent. So I'm going to tell him, and he's going to read it and spread the message of what the book can do.

That's a brilliant idea to put this into vulnerable areas where people are facing challenges that are so difficult to get through, to put this into transition societies and to the hands of people who could really need to hear. a story of facing adversity and overcoming it, where did that come from? Or was that, did you do that with the first book? Yeah, I think it's just something that, you know, as I mentioned, no matter whether we're rich or poor or what color of our skin, we're all going to go through challenges and adversity. And everybody has their own strengths. And I think if you follow your callings, follow for that feeling, like I almost didn't with not writing bravery, almost pushed it aside. And I think that if I could, you know,

pass anything to people is to follow their passion and whatever your strength may be because we all are different strengths like jesse's strength is volunteering um i've never been great at volunteering at all i i on the rotary and the hospice society so i do volunteer but it's it's not part of my daily activity whereas that's what jesse does every day and cam to mom when she retired she volunteer it almost every day. So whatever your strength is, however you can give back in your community, whether it's a book or your time or money, that's what motivated me. That's amazing.

Can you tell me about some of your role models through all of this and what you took from role model, the people specifically, because I think that one thing I want to make more clear is that we can draw specific things from specific people. and it doesn't need to be emulate the whole person and everything that they've done and just go copy it, it can be bits and pieces from different people. So can you give us a little bit of the lay of the land on people you look up to and what you get from those relationships? Yeah, if every experience, you know, I try to pull something positive from it. And luckily maybe that's just my nature.

I'm not sure, but I don't think I was always that way as a kid. but yeah, you know, he's in the book, Dan, he's a friend of mine who has major cerebral palsy. He has no water control of his limbs, and his speech is very challenging to decipher. But he is a famous artist, and his documentary went an Oscar called King Gimp, because he learned to paint by strapping a paper. paintbrush to his forehead and doing these master art pieces. And so I've like, you know, cheapers, you know, people think that they have limitations, but they don't, you know, everybody can be a role model. And what a role model he is, because he's got no use of his limbs,

but yet he became a famous artist who had an Oscar, you know, like, so that's just so important that we pull from people who have done great things and we never stopped learning we never stopped learning I just took a very valuable lesson from a friend of mine who was heartbroken because her she was a widowed at a very young age and a little girl she had a little girl going up and she she dedicated her time to raising her daughter never had another relationship for probably 15 years And then now her daughter graduated and off to university, and she started a relationship. Well, she was so happy because she didn't think she could love again. And I told her, I said, you will be able to love again.

No, I don't think I'll be able to ever love again. Well, she found love again. And she just had the skip and a step and the sparkle in her voice and twinkle in her eye. And it was wonderful to see that she had that ability to love again. But unfortunately, it didn't work out. He was unfaithful and crushed her, crushed her. And I thought, oh, no, oh, no, oh, no, this is going to devastate her. This is going to crumble her.

And she was quiet for a couple weeks and didn't really want any contact. And then she said to me, after I called her after a couple of weeks, she said, you know, I said, how are you? She said, I'm going to be okay, you know. I realized I can love again. And I thought, wow, that is amazing. Like that's, you know, she's devastated and I thought she wouldn't recover. So we can never underestimate the power of people and who our role models may be. It may be your neighbor, your friend, a family member, or a stranger.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that does go to that point where for some reason, we never test our true potential. And I know I've been on runs. And then you hit this point where you're like, well, technically I hit my six kilometer goals. So I'll just stop now. And it's like, why are you stopping? Why are you putting this artificial boundary on yourself that you can only do this much and you need to stop here?

And I think we do that too often where we draw those boundaries and we're like, I could never go do that. Same with the book. And we just draw these artificial boundaries. And then we never get the opportunity to really see what we're capable of if we just went 100% in, took the risk on herself. And again, going back to, I want to make sure I get the page right. I think it's page 60.

where you talk about these different approaches people have, and I'll just read a few of them off because I think that they're so important. It's eight simple ideas for getting started. And the first is surround yourself with positive people. The second is filter out negativity and discouragement. And the third is exercise more. And get your blood levels checked. And I found that that one was really important because I think that a lot of adult start to not worry about those things. anymore. And I think that that's important that we start to recognize that we need to check up on ourselves and on our health and where we're at. And I think too often we put our focus on other people and going exterior, where if we put a little bit more work into our own health and making sure that we're okay, making sure that we can be present for whoever we're seeing, we can handle those situations better. And like, when I'm approaching the podcast, it's like, I make sure I know what I'm eating the night before, what I'm having the most, morning of to try and make sure that there's nothing that's going to I'm not going to be in a

cranky mood or like awesome in your optimum shape exactly because it impacts you it impacts the listeners if they feel like I'm off track or I'm not making any sense or I'm hopping from topic to topic it's going to discourage them listening to the podcast right exactly and I want to make sure that that's always cared for but it requires me to take care of myself if I want to be a good host I have to take care of myself where often people will be like I'm putting it 100% into the book or I'm putting it 100% into other people exterior to myself, then we wear ourselves out and we're no good to anybody. You're right.

And so I'd like to get your thoughts on that because I feel like you are this caring person for so many people that keep an eye on things, but how do you keep an eye on yourself and make sure that you're cared for? Yeah, I think that I just realized that you can't take care of other people unless you take care yourself. I remember hearing that many years ago and I thought, oh, that's so true. Like when the, you know, there's, the oxygen's falling down on your airplane, you, you have to put it on yourself first to be able to be there to put it on your child or what have you. So I just realized that, you know, I have to take care of myself to be able to take care of other people.

And I think this, especially with what we're going through right now, with the crisis on, with the COVID and people's mental health, we need to focus even more on taking care of ourselves because this is going to pass. This too will pass. I talk about the pandemic in 1918, how, you know, some of the great things that came from that. And the same thing with this. But we, in order for that to happen, we have to take care of ourselves. And I've just been lucky to reap and feel the benefits of what it is, taking time for yourself, going on your walks, like going on my walks every day. Like, that is like, you know, it's important to me as saying my prayers at night.

Can you tell us a little bit about how you approach your walks? Because I noticed that Rebecca and I have gotten more and more into birdwatching and looking for certain things in the experience. And I do, like you did write, like, exercise more. So I'm just more curious as to how you approach your exercise. What are you looking for and what do you take out of those experiences? Because I think for some people, I know I have a lot of friends who just hop on social media and they're walking down the street with their phone. And then it's like you're missing out

on what you said you were going to do. It was staying present. Staying present is really what, like to me when I think of going on my walks, it's a bonus of many sorts because I'm getting my exercise. I'm getting my heart rate up because I go on hills. That's why I take that path is so I can get my heart rate up by going up on the hills. But the best benefit of it all, aside from the health is just being in the present moment because so often we caught up with what happened yesterday or we're worried about what's happening tomorrow that we don't take time to just be in the present moment like watching that bird, you know, and listening to the sounds because it's therapeutic. It's the best thing you can do other than meditate, even probably more so

than meditating because you're just grounding yourself. You're releasing all those tensions of what bothered you yesterday and what you have to worry about tomorrow and it's medicine it's actually you know and you feel better when you can release all that you it releases those endorphins so scientifically it proves that it is good for us to get out into nature so if we can learn stuff like by bird watching different kinds of birds who are exercising our brain when we're being present with nature uh we're feeling a peace peace of mind and And so you just look at all the benefits of what it can do. It doesn't seem like a chore anymore.

You actually start to look forward to it. And again, one of the, I think one of the nice things that came out for me from COVID is not being able to have to go to the gym, instead of doing the one hour on the treadmill, do the one hour on the walk, rather than my dog getting 20, 30-minute walk. He's getting 45-60-minute walk. So those kind of things We can find

But we have to understand it It's a choice And I talked about that before It's how we think about it How we choose to think about it Like even like I think I talk about it in the book It was vacuuming I hate vacuuming

I hate housework completely totally And I have a friend who loves housework She finds it very therapeutic And I don't understand that Because I do not like doing it one bit But I have a cat A four cats and a dog and so I, and I don't like hair.

So I'm vacuuming all the time. And I'm like, why do I have these animals? I hate vacuuming. And so I thought, I have to come to terms with, you know, have my animals. I'm going to have to vacuum. I have to be okay with it because I'm a procrastinator too. So I thought, how can I not hate vacuuming so much? And so then I just started playing this little exercise in my brain thinking about,

just focus on how good it's going to feel when it's done. and it's only 20 minutes. It's not long. And then I started putting in my earbuds and listening to podcasts while I vacuumed. So I'm making productive time from vacuuming too. And so do I love vacuuming? No, but is it much more tolerable than it was? Absolutely.

Yeah. So just things like that. It's a mindset. It's our choice. It's how we choose to deal with it. Because there's some things we have control over and there's some things we don't. Exactly. And I think that nature can be a really good thing for that because from my understanding,

with technology's growth, we have really disconnected from the reality that we are very, very small creatures on a very small planet in a galaxy that we are just very small in and just reminding ourselves, when you look up at the stars, you can recognize, like, that is all going on without me being okay with it or I don't get a vote on this. And with living in a city, and as our city continues to grow, we're going to distance ourselves more and more because of ambient light and because of developments we're going to lose out more on more on that nature side of things and that wilderness experience of recognizing that bear does not have an opinion on me it doesn't care if I'm a good person or a bad person it will take care of me regardless and being

able to have that humility is I think something that some people miss out on when you're on social media all day and you see I got a hundred likes it can feel artificially like you are now an important person and things can't touch you the same way, but you're still just a person. And I think that it's important that people start to incorporate recognizing that the ocean is a vast thing. And if you get stuck in the middle of it, you're just, that's it. And that you're a very small part of this ecosystem and we all have a role to play. And I think that sometimes we can disconnect ourselves from that and think that we are this important person at the head of this law firm and we are vital to the role of everything. And it's like, eventually you're not going to

be here eventually that's not going to matter exactly we've got to get over ourselves yeah exactly and I think that that's that's so important that you recognize that you're playing a role within other people's lives thank you so I'd like to move this a little bit more into you and your personal experiences just in terms of your development as a person because I think that you are a role model to so many people and your philosophy is so key to people being able to do better but I'd like to more of what your experiences were like in education because I know a lot of people are going into university and it's good to get an idea of where your approach was with the university because you wrote the you went got the education and still left probably feeling like I could never

write a book but you wrote a book and so how does education play a role in someone's development while not only being the only way to succeed because you obviously wrote a phenomenal book without the education playing the main it's not like you went to school to become an author and then you became the author it's like that the education helped but it wasn't the thing that led to the book so what what role does education play in your life well it's a balance it's a balance and it just depends on if you know what you want to do I didn't know what I wanted to do and so education is very valuable especially if you know where you're going what you want to do It's very valuable, but life experience is just as a valuable.

Like, there's many people out there that are very successful, not only monetarily, but with their philosophies and their beliefs and their, that, you know, didn't get a degree. So I think, you know, education is very important, especially to specialize in something. Like, you know, whether it's kinesiology, sports medicine, whether it's sociology, to understand. And like, my goodness, without education, we wouldn't have our surgeons and our doctors and, you know, everything else. So it's key. But you have to have a passion for it because it's like anything. If you don't like what you're doing, you're not going to be good at it. And I think I realized that young, but when I thought, okay, I'm going to major in French.

We're going to be a French teacher. Well, no, you know, realize that that's, no, I'm not going to be really good at it because I don't really love it. or whatever it may be, you know, business communications. No, I'm not, I'm not really the marketing-minded kind of person. So I'm not going to continue with it. So just, you know, to throw your passion into what you want to do. And then that way, because if you like what you do, you'll be great at it. Because I don't know many people that love what they do that aren't good at it.

Yeah. It's just, you know, a lot of people in high school, they go through the motions because they have to. They have to, you know, that they've got to get there at grade 12 and then go on because that's the way we're a predisposed condition to become. So, you know, for me, I still say, I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do when I grow up. And I have a friend of mine who's in her 40s who's going back to school, going back to university. So again, I think, you know, it comes down to that it's never too late. And if you know what you want to do, then you're going to get there a heck a lot quicker. Well, and I think that that's so important because a lot of people can look at their life, and I know I did this when I graduated, was I graduated with a criminology degree, and then I was like, I don't know if this whole criminology, criminal justice thing is for me. And you can feel a little bit like, did I just waste my time? And I think that that's the error a lot of people make and why people commit too much to, I could have just said, well, I got the crime degree, so I better go become a police officer. Or do whatever that education told me to go do.

right and that's what you didn't do and so I think that that's so important for people to recognize the education can offer value it can help shape your understanding of the world but it doesn't define you right the same way that people will do with their careers and they'll be like well I am this person so I act this way and like I know lawyers are bad for that all law shows show the same type of person in all the different shows and so you can think if I want to be a lawyer I need to act this way and present myself that way. And that's where we just try and fit ourselves into these categories. And I think that you breaking that category of like, well, technically, I got my education

in this, so I can't write a book, is so important for people to take off those caps of what are the rules to you sharing your story? And so I'm curious as to how you would, what would you say to somebody who's considering writing a book for themselves? And what is some of the advice you would give if somebody's, you would say, you would, considering it or they have something that they'd like to share, what would your approach be? Just dig in. Just dig in. Just get started. It'll come. That movie, I love that movie, feel the dreams with Kevin Costner, you know, build it and they will come. Just get started.

Because I didn't think, yeah, I knew nothing about writing a book. But I just said, okay, and the rest falls into place. So taking that leap of faith is huge to be able to get things done that you never thought that you could or that you keep shelving, that you keep dusting under the carpet. And there's also, there's mentors out there. I'm just becoming a mentor to a special needs adult who wants to write a book. So we have a Zoom meeting set up for next week. That's awesome. And I thought, wow, how great this person is. I'm not sure what the nature of the disability is, but here's this disabled person who wants to write a book. And now there's resources from our community that are going to make this possible.

So they reached out to me and said, would you be a mentor to help somebody give them the path to what they need to do to become an author? And I thought, absolutely, and that's what it's all about, is sharing our experiences. and one of my mentors, Glenda Stand, even, she wrote a book before me, and she became my mentor because she had, I remember reading her book and remember seeing that, you know, when she came to her cancer diagnosis and she lost her leg. And I'm like, oh, my goodness, my grandma lost her leg. And I thought, I wonder if they know each other because my grandma, when she lost her leg, she would mentor all those in the community who would lose a limb, taking them to the best prosthetic

places, the best doctors, telling them that they were going to be okay. So I found her email and I emailed her and I said, I've read your book and I wonder if you know my grandma and I'm writing a book too and and she got back to me right away and she said, you know, I heard of your grandma but she passed away before I lost my legs and but I heard wonderful things about her and she's like, so you're writing a book and I said so she helped me and so it's again paying it forward so now there's this person who wants to write a book and is coming to me so if we you know don't give back or pay it forward you know how sheltered and limited we would be so that was my you know most exciting time is seeing the benefits of passing on what we can you know to give

back and pay it forward that is such an important story and like i'm sure listeners are like that all makes sense and i completely support that approach but i just have to say At my law school, right now, the first years were just caught recently guilty of gathering information on people's social media pages of people who were not following the COVID-19 protocols and they were planning on sending who broke the rules to employers, to ruin their careers and to prevent them from being able to get jobs. And so it's really easy to see what you did in your approach of supporting other people and helping and giving them a ladder up to find their own success and your mentor doing that. It all sounds like it's straightforward and so clear, but there are real people out there who have the exact opposite mindset of tearing other people down. And I think that that's important to contrast with because it can be so easy to say, that makes sense for sure and not realize that there are real circumstances where people will hoop you in order to get themselves ahead. And it is a really important thing to set the example of how to approach things because that is a way of you. offering the opportunity and sharing what you've learned with somebody else. And I completely agree with

you, but I think that there are so many bad actors out there that do the exact opposite. And they can kind of become the culture because within, again, the legal community, it is very well known that a lawyer will hoop you in order to get ahead and that those things really do happen within the workplace. Yeah, we get stereotype. We do, we get stereotyped. And typically, you know, lawyers are known to, you know, have a bigger ego. I know some personally some lawyers who are lovely people who founded foundations and charities. But it's, you know, like the old saying, one, bad apple ruins a bunch, right? And that's how we perceive it. That becomes a stereotype, even though it isn't so in all cases. But also, there's a chapter in the book that I talk about ego. And so those people that

want to tear down rather than build up, they need to simply get their ego in check. And it's not impossible especially but if you're not aware that you're doing this something wrong how can you fix it it we have to be aware of the our actions and our behaviors and realize that it's not acceptable or not doing it with the best intent so by doing that is learning about the ego and that was really important for me because I thought ego was meant that it was just having a big head people who thought they were all that. But it's so much more than that. It's about not trying to identify ourselves by who we are,

our title, so to speak. And when we can release that and understand that we don't have to do that way to prove anything to anybody, we can become more giving better people. And it's not that difficult, but you just, have to be aware because like I said, if you don't know that you have these challenges or problems, you know, if you don't know it's broken, you can't fix it. Yeah. Yeah, and especially if you get into bad communities that support the behavior you're having because that's one problem that law schools have faced is that there's reason, there's incentives for people to do these

things. And that's the job. And everybody wants that one job. And so they're all competing and willing to hurt each other. And so we need to change how the whole system operates, and look at trying to support people doing the right thing and making that the currency of our communities rather than financial incentives, which can incentivize people to do the wrong things just to get themselves ahead. And that's why I think that you set the example above all else, because you are putting in the work to not only share your story, but to help lift people up and give them more opportunities to help other authors who are interested, supporting the healthcare workers who did that work,

and doing so much supporting children's hospital, that's all going beyond yourself and looking at how can I take the new position I'm in that I've moved forward and also help raise everybody else up and I think that that's that thing of rising tide lifts all boats and that's exactly what you're doing.

When did that start? Was that as a kid? Was that later in life, where did that all begin? I think it was through our examples. I think it was like through our mentors. Like with my grandma losing her leg, it could have, you know, really changed her life for the worst. And it didn't. It enriched her life because it made her aware.

So she would say things to me like, oh, you know, Kimmy, I never appreciated riding my bike until my leg was gone. So she taught me the value of appreciating things now because we don't, we take it for granted. We often take things for granted. So it's kind of like what I said before, we can't really appreciate the sun until after a bunch of stormy days. So it's all kind of that I think was instilled in me because I think that a lot of it is predisposed, like who we are genetically.

But that doesn't mean that it has to be who we are because I lived a very rose-colored glasses life until this happened with my son. I had the opportunity to either let it learn from it and grow from it or not. And I wonder, had my grandma not had I not had her as my role model as my mentor, would I have done the same? I don't know.

You know, that some things that we just really don't know, but I know that it's never too late to stop learning. And something, as we know where there's no such thing as coincidence, is something at the right time will come by if we open up our mind to it. If we are always living life with blinders on, we're not going to see the opportunities that come our way. So I think it's really important to tell people to look for the opportunities. Even if you didn't have a great life growing up, it's never too late because a lot of the greatest things in life were accomplished from people who rose up through the ashes.

Absolutely. I agree with that. Can you tell us a little bit about the Heart and Stroke Foundation and your involvement in that and what that's been like? Yeah, well, I saw an opportunity they were hiring a person to do some campaigning for the Heart and Stroke Foundation, and so I applied, even though I didn't have the creditations to do it because it was a lot of, you had to have like a degree in communications and so forth, which I never finished my degree, but I had the desire and I had the passion to apply for it, even though it said, you know, you had to have these qualifications. But I thought, well, you know, you never know until you try. So that's my motto. And so I had the interview and they, you know, they said, well, you know, you don't really have the qualifications for this job. And I said, I know, but I have the passion to do it even better than somebody that has the qualifications.

And they're like, okay, you know, well, we'll talk about it and, you know, we'll get back to you. And so I didn't really know where I stood as far as getting the job or not. I had no clue. I thought, well, I did good, but I don't have qualifications. So I'm walking back out to my car, and I look down, and there's a feather. And that's a sign. That was a sign, because I know that when I see feathers are certain things, that that's a sign. So I just immediately big smile on my face, and I thought, I got the job.

Well, they were supposed to phone me on a certain day, and it never came. Phone call never came. So I thought, oh, do I phone them? What do I do? Maybe it was wrong. I didn't get the job. And then I didn't get the call, and I didn't get the job. And that was wonderful because of, and when I said I had the passion for the job,

it was because of my son having a heart defect and giving back to the Heart and Stroke Foundation was wonderful. So to be able to make money and do good things, like that's a win-win. It doesn't get any better than that because, of course, we need money to pay our bills and put gas in the car and everything else. Otherwise, I would do it for nothing. So I thought that was great. So I was able to, what I did qualify for was a speaking part of it.

So I was able to go to different places and tell my story and speak to people about the value of supporting foundations like the Heart and Stroke Foundation. And, you know, all the foundations out there, we wouldn't be where we are if we didn't have the support from the people. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about the Heart and Stroke Foundation and what you would talk about because I don't know as much as I probably should? So you tell, you know, I would tell my story about what happened with it with Avery, you know, and which, as you know, with heart and stroke, we can be born with a heart defect or we can find out later in life that we have a heart defect or we can have a stroke or a heart attack when we're a kid or when we're older. So it's mostly, what we did was raise awareness. I think that was, you know, of course, we raised money for the hospitals and all of the, you know, therapies that go post heart attack because we but most of all we want to prevent them but we

also do support people who've had them so it was kind of nice to be able to look at both ends but prevention is key you know so we would raise a lot of money to put defibrillators in every store in every gym and every health club and those have saved thousands of lives just by having that there because the quicker you can get to somebody who's having a heart attack the better chance or a stroke, a better chance of them living and having a full recovery. So we talked a lot about preventative signs to look for things like that and introducing education in schools, like the jump rope for heart and that kind of thing as well. So again, mostly just, you know, things to create awareness of what we need to do, diet, exercise,

you know, just spreading the word of what we should be doing. That's awesome. And you also mentioned that checking your heart and stuff, within the book, which I think is so valuable because it all does tie in and your experiences really do make up the book. Moving forward, you recently just joined the Chiluac Hospice Society. What has that been like? Well, it's different because I joined in COVID, so I haven't met the people in person. I mean, I do know Sue previously, and she's a remarkable woman. I just, and I love the podcast

that you had with her. I didn't know a lot of the stories that came from the podcast that you had with her. So I look forward though to being a part of what they do because again it's supporting people who have gone, who are grieving. And right now during the time of COVID, I think we really see the value of that more than ever. I did volunteer for hospice. So years ago, I would volunteer on the committee for the gala that they would have, which of course we haven't been able to have with COVID, but we will again, you know, next year we're planning on having it going forward, so we'll be looking forward to raising lots of money for that. So it's about raising money and having fun. I mean, that, you know, that's the thing is I'd like to explain to people that, you know,

when we're doing volunteer work or volunteering on committees, it's about making connections and making friendships and having fun while you do good things, because I'm all about having fun and laughing and being silly, and you can do that while you're doing something good for our community, too. That's so cool, because you can often get stuck with the title of, like, you're on the board of directors for this society, and it can sound serious and dull. Yeah, I'm on the board of directors. I'm a board of director, oh, you know, but I can, you know, it's fun.

And Sue, for anybody that knows Sue, that she's a vivacious woman, and she'll make any endeavor fun. Yeah. How long have you known Sue? since probably now she's better at knowing numbers than me but I would say I've known of her for a long time because I remember going to the gala with her

and sitting at her table when she was a city counselor but we became more personally connected when she married my dad's best friend really? Yeah wow yeah that was pretty special it was quite something so so we really connected through that relationship blossoming

that's awesome because she is such a role model and works so hard and has that giving spirit just like you. Oh, she sure does. And it's so authentic. Like she just has a passion for community like no other. Yeah. Can you tell us about recently in November you posted about trying to help people through this pandemic? And I think that that's important to highlight because during this time, we have seen a reduction in the access to income for a lot of people because of the pandemic.

And you made a post basically just reaching out and saying anybody who needs anything, I'm here for you. Right. What brought that about for you personally? You know, that was just, you know, I remember seeing it from somebody else. I think it was Bill Turnbull, who you did a podcast with him too, which was fabulous as well. So neat how we all are connected and know each other because he's on a rotary. And I've always been, I always looked up to him because he is so supportive of community. And I saw he made that post and I thought, what a heck of a great idea. because there are people out there who are suffering, whether it's monetarily or emotionally, especially during this time.

So I thought, yeah, that's just what humans who have something to offer. It's just, I think it's what we should do, naturally just be able to do it. And it's also contagious. So I saw it for Bill and then I did it, and then hopefully somebody seen it for me and then they did it. and so it's contagious. And then we just feel good if we can help somebody. So it's kind of almost a little bit selfish too because when you help other people, you feel good.

So it's a win-win. It's just kind of like when we smile at somebody, it coaxes them to smile back at us. So it's a win-win thing too. That's awesome. Since we're on the topic of Bill and small businesses, can you mention some of the businesses you think set an example in the Fraser Valley

and some that have just stood out to you that go above and beyond in certain ways. Oh, well, the bookman comes to mind because Amber, who has done so much with our community and the downtown core to clean that up and the murals and the garbage. I mean, and our mayor can pop off. He's done a fabulous job. He's born and raised in Chiluac, and he's always had a passion for Chiluac. He's always thought it's the best hidden gem that there is. So what he's been able to work with with the Downtown Business Association, and then as a Chilliwet counselor, and now as mayor,

so he's really looking at taking our community and making it as best as it can be. Yeah. Is there any businesses that you enjoy visiting and going to to shop? Oh, I love going to Mary's in Wellington. I love Mary. She's just a breath of fresh air and a big, a huge supporter of Chilliwack and shopping locally. Of course, the town butcher is always great to go to.

All things being, Eco, is a great store. I just bought some stuff there yesterday, and they have natural laundry detergents and essential oils, and every kind of gitch and gadget and gadget. They have socks made from hemp. It's just, you know, and they all support local community. The owl and the cat bookery. It's a new bookstore.

in Garrison that is the most charming store. They've got gifts and kind of crafts and jewelry and books. And it's just an adorable little store there. And, yeah, I could go on. That's awesome. Like, there's so many I can't even begin to think of where. But, yeah, it's really important to stay with our local community to shops because they need them more than ever right now.

And there's some that have opened up that I look forward to going. Bravo is one of my favorite restaurants to go to. I'd look forward to going to the Boundstern, but we just haven't really been going out to restaurants. Yeah, I see there's so many opening that look great, but sitting down in a restaurant is not something that we're doing right now. Yeah, yeah. So it's been tough.

But moving forward a little bit more, what are your plans for the future for the next couple of years? Because you do have two great books available now, and you're working hard to promote them. So is there any other events that you have going on or any plans you have for the next couple of years? Well, I look forward to doing some more public speaking. I've talked to a life coach that I know, and we've talked about doing some workshops where, you know, so people who are taking like smile again to the next level.

So people who have read Smile again, okay, now they want to make improvements. And so doing like workshops to help them through that kind of thing to get it in motion. So get it from it peer to actually concrete and happening. So that's what I hope to do. So once the rules loosen up with COVID, I think it will open up a lot more doors to be able to do that. But for right now, I'm just really enjoying doing podcasts like this, you know, just to spread that awareness and to be, you know, talk about other things that we can do to be able to find the silver linings. I did a podcast that was out of Las Vegas, and I'm doing one next week that's out of New York. Wow.

And so it's kind of, and I work part-time at a medical aesthetic place as well in Langley. And Rejuva Medisbon Laser, fabulous place where we treat everything from acne to acne scarring to sun damage to wrinkles. and all kinds of other things. So it's the doctor that I work for. So I do consulting, which is fabulous because it's all about helping people feel better because so many people are coming in and they're just not feeling good about themselves. Like they see the signs of aging coming in and it's making them feel not good. Like so many women come in with the frown lines and they're like,

people are saying, are you angry? And I'm like, no, it's just these lines here that are. are just informed now. I'm not angry. So to be able to help somebody feel better about themselves, you know, who have like acne scarring, that we have lasers that can smooth the surface, just so that they feel better. It's not really about looking better. It's about feeling better, about how it makes them feel. So it's quite a rewarding job when, you know, because I'll say to women and men, because women are coming in too, and, you know, and I'll say, you know, you zoom in to look at, and all you see is like these wrinkles here or the sagging here, you don't look. You don't

look in the mirror and go, oh, I've got beautiful eyes or, oh, I've got a beautiful smile. Oh, I've got lovely hair. And they're like, no, I never do that. I'm like, well, start doing that. Start focusing on the good things. Because just as the things that bother you, there's beautiful things to focus on, too. And some start crying. And I'm like, like, you have beautiful eyes, you know, and you have a beautiful smile. And they're like, oh, and they just, they instantly start feeling better. So it's what we focus on. So we can look at the good things and say, oh, yeah, I have, you know, nice, kind eyes or I have this, or we can say, oh, I don't like these wrinkles or, you know, what happens. So it's kind of how we look at it. And I'm, you know, if I think I can help them feel better

in any kind of way, then that's a good thing. I did a blog that said outside beauties and inside job. Yeah. That's such an important thing because Rebecca and I faced that in the beginning of our relationship because she would put on makeup and it would take like 45 minutes to an hour and to me I would just be like okay if I sat and she would just come back and say I didn't like this or I didn't like seeing this part of me or like yeah have you seen this new like pimple yeah whatever it is and it would be like right but if I spent an hour staring at myself in a mirror I probably would start to find things too and that's where I really do think that women can be at a disadvantage because I don't look at myself in a mirror unless it's like right away I'm getting

ready and then I'm out of there. And it's whatever needs to be done and then gone. And I don't look at, I don't have mirrors set up where I think that that can be a disadvantage to spend so much time critiquing yourself and going, what are the problems here? And it's like, if you spend too much time doing that, you're going to start to pick on yourself and start to focus on only those things. So when somebody shows up, I'm sure it's like, oh, well, I'm sure you can clearly see this one thing. And you're like, see what? Right. I know. It's so interesting. how we focus on things that don't really matter that much, like,

or what we think is bothersome, that other people don't even notice. You know, it's like, so I admire people who have those imperfections and that are cool with it. Like people that have like big gaps in their teeth or whatever, they find the beauty in that, like that famous actress Lorne Bacall,

you know, who, you know, that's beautiful, that she embraces that. So, uh, and that's a work in progress for me.

I mean, I would love to be able to come to this podcast with not stitch of makeup on, but I don't have that security enough yet to be able to do that because I do realize that we are judged by perceptions. And, you know, and I get that. It's like when I was my child's advocate in school and not going to the meetings because I needed to fight for my child's rights, to get the support, to get the extra help, to get that laptop computer with the books put in for Avery. If I had come there with messy, greasy hair, tattered up. torn clothes, but those principals and teachers have looked at me differently than if I walked in

with a suit and all manicured? Probably. And it's sad. It's sad. Just because of what I'm wearing doesn't really define who I am, but to the eyes of many, it does. So, you know, it would be nice to work towards that not happening, but I think we're ways away from having that happen. But I'm working on it. And that's the thing I want to really get my point across to people, too, is it's okay to have flaws or have things to work on and to admit it because you can't change it until you can admit it. 100%. And I think that men, especially with makeup, have a role to play because a lot of it is if I stay silent, if I let her sit in front of the mirror for an hour each day, that is me condoning that behavior. And at certain points, if we're just running to say, Yvonne, you do not need to dress up. You don't need to stress. Right. If somebody's going to make an issue of this, I will just call them out.

And like, there are certain lines where we should give people a break. Like, if you go into the store, there should be no obligation that you're dressed up and ready for a business meeting. It's in context. Exactly. Of to what you're doing. Yes. Well, exactly. No one would balk at you if you walked into Savon after work with paint on your clothes.

Because you've obviously just come from work and you're a painter. So we shouldn't judge that. So it's in context and, again, balance, right? And it's something to be aware of. of not judging a book by its cover that way, but we have a lot of progress to be made in order for us to make some headway when it comes to things like that. Absolutely, and especially because we can get caught up in that that's what matters, and I think that things like your book show that there are way more depths to people

than just the cover of the book and just the surface level of what's going on, because, again, the stories that you have to share with people are very profound. the questions I had regarding it, is it available in audio? That's a good question. So I emailed my publisher about that because I have a friend of mine who had a stroke and he's not able to read, but he can have audiobooks. So I emailed the publisher and said, can we make this an audio version? And he said it's what you can do is purchase it on an e-book and then use that volume

on the computer as an audiobook. book. Does that make sense? So does somebody else read the book? Did they pay someone else to do the reading of the book? Yeah, I'm not really sure how it works because I'm technically challenged, but he said something about by downloading

the e-book and using the volume off the computer to hear it. Okay. So that you don't need to be read it. I was just going to say, because I think that having your book read and your voice would be so valuable to people because it is your story and so if there's a way that we can make that happen,

really cool that's a good yeah that's that's a really good point i i mean i would i would like to do that i wonder i'll maybe check in to see how that can be possible yeah because i think no matter how it happens whether or not you just need to connect with your publisher or we can just sit down and have you read the book whenever works for you to read it because i do think that that would mean a lot to people especially for people like me when i am doing my cleaning i'm not somebody who usually sits down and reads a book right i'm usually an audiobook person who prefers it through that lens. And so I think it would just be able to reach more people, especially youth, who are not known for reading. That's great. Thank you for bringing that up, because I'm going to pursue

that more for sure. I'm going to make that happen. Because I know a good friend of mine, he really wants to read the book or hear the book because he can't read it. So that's great. I'm going to make sure that happens. Yes. And I just prefer when it's done by the author of the book, because then it makes it that more personable feeling. And the feelings come out in the words. that the passion comes out in the voice rather than just the words that you were reading. So that's a great point. Exactly. Thanks. So moving forward, I feel like you are also a very artistic person with both of the images. And I'm just curious as to your approach with the arts and your relationship with it. I used to be a painter. So when Avery came home from the hospital, I thought, well,

I don't want to work. I don't want to leave the home during the day time. because I didn't want to leave him at all. So eventually, I think it was after about close to a year, I thought, well, you know, I would like to do something. So I opened up my own interior business where I did specialty painting. And because I've always loved to paint. My husband and I would buy houses and we would, I would paint them and I would do fancy things.

I could paint over the ugly brick or the ugly tile and make it look like rock or granite. And I just had lots of fun doing it. And that way I could work on the weekends or in the evenings when my husband was home with Avery and Jesse. So that's how it all kind of started. And I just, I love, love the arts, love the arts, and love painting. And that's kind of what got me started on wanting to do the covers a certain way. You know, those images pop into your head.

Because I think anybody who has some kind of an arts background or artsy person, they can see it in their mind. you can you can visually see the outcome of it in your mind if that makes sense i'm not sure but i could it's just kind of like when you're when i'm cooking this sounds funny i don't know what it is strange but when i'm cooking and i can't follow a recipe to save my soul that's why i don't bake because it would not turn out but for cooking i'm like no it would taste better with this or no i'm going to use this and no i'm going to add that or i'm not going to use that but i'm going to use this because i can almost taste it before it's made yeah what it's going to be like so it's it's a weird thing in my head

that I do. That's just funny because that is just so Rebecca as well in terms of her approach where she, I will say like, oh, this is the recipe and she'll be like, we're not making it that way. And it's just like, okay, I don't know how to make it. Yeah, it's just kind of, you just see it, feel it, touch it, taste it before

it's done. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit more about renovating houses and the role your husband's played? Well, he wasn't always a realtor. He just became a realtor. I don't know, probably 10 years ago now, maybe maybe a bit more.

It's time goes so fast you forget, right? So yeah, he wasn't a realtor when we were buying and selling the homes. Like we were just trying to get ahead so we'd buy a fixer upper, renovated to just do, you know, surface things and then sell it for a bit more money and then buy another one and do the same thing. What was that experience

like during that period of time? It was okay, because I like doing it. It was very rewarding taking something ugly and making it look good. it was therapeutic I think and you know you look back and you think how did I do all that with kids and all but you know you had a lot more energy back then I would stay up to 12 or 1 which I can't do now so yeah so it was very rewarding and we were able to do that and then when my husband became a realtor and we bought a house well we've been in that house ever since 16 years I'm ready to move but he doesn't want to but that's okay I'm like it's a it's a lovely spot and we have lots of great friends around us which I think is I'm learning more important than the actual house you live in is the people around it.

Yeah. So what has that experience been like for him? And can you just give us a little bit more detail on where he's at? Yeah. He always wanted to be a realtor. It's something that was a passion of his before we even had children. But then, you know, you've got to pay the bills and this and that. And so it just never happened. And then finally, I think he just realized that I'm not getting any younger and something he always wanted to do. So I said, yeah, let's do it because we spend so much of our time working that we want to be able to like what we do. You know, my heart goes out to these people who are working in jobs that they just don't like. And I think I talked about that too in the chapter, about life is too short to spend so much time doing something that you don't like.

But then also for people that don't really have a choice, try to make the best of it of how you view things. So he, when Cam became a realtor, you know, it's a tough gig to start out in realtor when there's so many, you know, already respected realtors out there to make headway, to make yourself known. So, but because he's authentically loved what he did and he has really the buyer's best interests or buyer's seller's best interest at heart, he did really well. Because people can see that. People can tell when you're just a chister salesperson or if you really have the client's best interest. So he's been able to do quite well with it because he really loves what he does. He has a passion for doing it. That's awesome.

And it kind of seems like both of you guys are in the public eye a little bit by trying to promote the book and promote real estate and sales. What has that been like to move more into the public light and to be more in front of cameras and microphones and stuff? I don't know. I don't really feel like I'm out there a lot. I guess I am because you do it because you want to. But I remember thinking like, geez, for people who are famous, they have to be careful of what they say and do because they're known out there in the community.

And I remember thinking, okay, I have to make sure that, you know, if what I'm doing in my house because if somebody walks by, it sees what you're doing. but I'm not, like, people don't recognize me a lot. Some do, but I think it's, you just do it because you want to get your voice out there. You want to get what's important out there to people. And I don't really like being in the public eye or watching myself on TV. It drives me crazy because I watch my TED Talk and I'm like, oh, horrified.

I'm like, what am I doing? That's, I don't know if we have time, but there's a little funny story. story about that. Let's keep going. Okay, well, so I'm prepared for this TED talk, and I think I'm prepared, because I've studied it, and I've got it off by heart, but you don't want to sound rehearsed, right? You want it to sound natural, like you don't, like, not like you're reading. And I'm a big improviser. Like, I don't follow my script, just like I don't follow a recipe. So that stressed me out a little bit, because I knew I was going to go off into a tangent and talk about something that wasn't in script.

And then that's added pressure because you only have a certain amount of time. If you go over your time, your talk is done. So there's all this pressures. But I think, I'm good, I'm good, I practice enough, I'm okay. So I get out on the stage. And I'm wearing high-hill shoes. And the red, you know the red circle carpet for TED Talks? Well, the carpet that we ordered had thick shag like this.

I'm getting stuck in the carpet. No. And so I'm trying, and I can't just stand still when I talk. I can't stand still. I have to move and address the audience and move side to side. If it's a nerve thing, I don't know, but I have to move. So I'm trying to move, but I'm getting stuck. And so I'm lifting up my leg to move around.

And it almost threw me off. I almost like totally had a breakdown. Like I just threw me right up. But somehow I was able to hold it together and make it through the talk without too many people noticing. They did a great job of editing. The TEDx Chilliwack people are fabulous at putting their talks together and doing everything that they've done to make it very professional. Wow. So I look forward to being on the panel next year as a judge and coach again.

Wow. What has that experience been like? It's been really rewarding as well. But, you know, to have, first of all, to do a TED Talk, which was on my bucket list. But then to be asked to be a coach was like, wow, that's pretty cool. And then it has to be a judge. I'm like, that is so great because it means that, you know, you get to have an input in somebody creating the end result that's going to be heard by so many. and providing that advice to people because I had a coach

when I did a TED talk and I think thank goodness I had a coach because they taught me a lot of things that helped me succeed with my TED talk so again it's kind of like paying it forward that's awesome what is the judge experience like do you judge the TED talk well it's it's you get like

I think we had a I don't know 70 80 applicants so they what we do is we narrow it down from what whether you know is it perceptive to what the topic is? Is it relevant? Is it newsworthy? Is it entertaining? All the guidelines of what a TED talk is about. And then, so then we narrow it down. So then each of those contestants that we've narrowed it down to, they speak for five minutes. And then, so we take those top 20 or however

it is, many it is, and then we pick from them. So it's hard. It's challenging because how do you know from five minutes whether or not it's going to be a worthy TED talk or not and it was it was a little bit stressful because I'm thinking you know there's these are good ones they that we have to say goodbye to I want them all to speak but um there's always next year right wow that is such a unique experience I can't just because I'm on a platform where I can speak as long as I want and I can make as many errors as I like yeah it's such a weird idea of being in that stressful circumstance of not having your story shared that year, but also so rewarding when that your story is chosen and shared with the community.

Yeah, yeah. So moving a little bit more forward, I'm just curious as to what your family's reaction to the books have been. First, let's start with bravery. What was it like to have that written and share that with Avery and with your family? Well, it was spectacular. It was wonderful to be able to share their amazing qualities. you know, we could talk about how wonderful they are.

And Jesse, being just the gem that she is, so she was in high school when it was published, and she had her own copy of the book. And one day I come home, and I'm taking out her stuff from her lunch kit to make her lunch for the next day, and there's a copy of bravery in her lunch kit. And so I said, Jesse, why is there a copy of bravery in your lunch kit? And she said, oh, well, there's my friend at school who can't read, So at lunchtime, I'm reading it to him. And I just thought, oh, my goodness, melt my heart.

How wonderful is that? And I noticed in the book, all the worn pages were the pages about her. So she was rereading the pages that she was in it. I thought it was so cute. That is amazing. Yeah. So that was so funny. It was so great.

And, you know, Avery was really proud to have a book written about him. And hopefully it helped his self-esteem because he struggled with, having this cerebral palsy, not being able to be an athlete and do the things that he wanted to do. He was restricted. I wanted him to know what a hero he really is, and that was the biggest inspiration to write the book, and that dedicated the book to him because I wanted him to know that how special he really was, because there was many times in his youth where he didn't think he was. Yeah, and I think that just the fact that he kept fighting and kept moving forward just as a baby, he and just kept defying the odds as you wrote about is so motivational when you hear it and

when you know that there's this person who endured all of this. So, and then how was you, what was your husband's reaction like for bravery? You know, he's always been supportive of me no matter what I do. He's always, you know, and he thinks it's great. He was actually the first one, he said when he was born, we should journal this. And I'm like, I don't even, I can't even breathe, let alone journal. Like, I was just, we were so stressed out. I thought, I just couldn't do it.

So he started. He was the one that started journaling our day, days. And then he stopped in, for some reason, I took over. So he was really, he's my biggest advocate and supporter. So he, which is great. And that's probably why, you know, 30 years later, we're still together. Because I think what relationships, especially disposal relationships, are about supporting each other. And like, I supported him when he wanted.

to be a realtor because I'm like thinking now in your 40s you're changing your whole life career and oh my what's going to happen but you have to have again that leap of faith and be supportive I absolutely agree and like Rebecca and I have definitely experienced that because there are points and like when I was like I think I'm going to start a podcast that's like you're in law school like you're busy you've got other things going on and I was like you know what like the pandemic's just starting up here things are calming down I think that I wouldn't mind and then it took me months to pick all of the equipment I was going to use and figure out how all of that was going to work. And there was a financial investment into all of this that she had to trust my

follow through. And I actually had a peer of mine who was like, I'm starting a podcast too. And he was like one of those people who you're kind of like, are you? And so he had all of his equipment and his is yet to start. And it just that ingrained in me, that belief. Like, if I'm going to do this, like I can't have a podcast that did two episodes and then I quit. Like, that's not the option. I'm investing a lot into this and I have a vision for this that I need to follow through on and so to have someone who can say, you know what, I have faith that you're going to make this happen and you're going to do well at it was something you need to hear when you're in that circumstance. Yeah, it's huge to have that support. It kind of, it gives that green light

that, you know, I've got the support of this and it also helps you to follow through. Yeah. Yeah, sharing it with somebody else and saying, I'm going to do this. It makes you want to do it well because they're supporting you in it, they're taking the risk on you. Yeah, and you want to do it even better because they're supporting you. So you want to prove to them that you can. Yeah, exactly.

And it can be so gut-wrenching when you're getting into it and you're starting to write the first few pages and you're like, oh, I don't know. And you're taking that risk. Like the first episode I recorded, it looks completely different now than when I started. But I knew I needed to start.

I knew I needed to record that first episode because so many of the discussions on how to start we're like just do it don't get stuck into that it's not perfect so i'll wait right and sticking to your your guidelines because one thing that like i heard from almost everyone was three hours that's too long like nobody's going to tune in and i was like i don't care i need to get the full story and i've had people reach out and say oh i'm sure i could get you this person on but they'd only have like half an hour and i was like why would they want to come on and only share 30 minutes of who they are when they have years of stories and experiences

to offer the community. Like, that's doing, if I were to cut this down to 30 minutes, that would miss out on so many experiences and stories you could share. And so it's not doing me a disservice. It does the guest a disservice to try and shorten it. Yeah, I get that. And that makes perfect sense. And I'm glad that you didn't listen to what people said

and went with your own thoughts because they don't have to listen to it all in one sitting. They can listen to it on their way to work, on the way home, on their, you know, like, well, vacuuming. And if they're interested, they'll find a way. They will. That's where I want to make sure the content is there, that the depth and the quality of who you are is in there, because that's what makes people go,

I'm not done that podcast. I need to pick that one up and finish it off. Yeah. Yes. So true. I completely agree. That's why I said, I'm still so surprised at 25 how smart you are. Yeah.

So moving forward to Smile Again, what has the reception from your family been with this book? It's being so much later. Yeah, they're not surprised with me because I kind of just do things on the spur. Like, I'm going to do a TED Talk. Okay, well, I'm going to write a book. So nothing surprises them, I don't think, but especially because they know that it's really important for me and my calling, I guess, to be able to help people in their time of need. And I kind of took over what my grandma did, you know, when she was younger.

And so I think a lot of it is genetic, but a lot of it is learned. So I think it's a combination of both. But most importantly, just having an open mind. And my kids and Cam know that about me and support me. And they're happy. Like, Avery, because he's minoring in English, he helped edit. He picked out things that the publisher didn't pick out. and so yeah, and Cam read it before it was published

because he's just naturally a good spelling and grammatic person. Like he just is really good at that. So he read the book too and he said, yeah, it's a really good book. And I know I can tell when he's fibbing me or not by how he says it. So he was authentic with his compliments. That's awesome. What was it like for Avery to kind of have this happen as he's going through university? stuff has it been completely able to support it or was there a bit of nervousness sharing his

side of the story what was that like he's so chill about that kind of stuff like he you know the fuss about him he doesn't like to be fussed upon um but he's very um just very he'll he just take it's so easy going he's just yeah this is you know my mom's doing this and it's you know but he doesn't like the focus to really be on him it's like when i um when i put the book in his school library and people were reading it. He was like, oh, they're going to know it all about me. And I said, but there's nothing bad to know. And he goes, I suppose you're right.

So he lets things roll off his back like water off a duck's back. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. I was just going to say, because he seems like a great guest to have on as well. But if he doesn't want that spotlight, I totally understand. I just think that his story is unique as well. Yeah, it really is.

And he's cool with that, too, because I think he said to me, when he found out, because he knows Rebecca. They went to school together since the kindergarten. And he's always thought Rebecca was a great girl and really nice because Avery, you know, he had some struggles with his speech being cerebral palsy. And so, you know, there was times when kids, you know, were maybe not very kind to him. And Rebecca was always like really, really kind, which is really nice to have that when you're young because kids can be cruel.

But when he found out that I was doing the podcast, he's like, oh, am I coming to? So he would be cool with it. That's awesome, because I do think that what he went through and that story of recognizing where people have been when you don't realize. And that perseverance that he went through and even being willing to participate in those things, to me, deserve to be recognized. Because there's lots of people, I'm sure, on playgrounds today that need that support, that need to know that there was somebody, else in that circumstance that got through it, and I think that that's what that goes to. I agree. Yeah, thank you.

So can you tell people where they can find the books in Chiloha? Yeah, so so far, a few more locations are opening up, but right now, we're at the Al and the Catbrookery, all things being eco, the book man, save on foods in Chiluac. The starst location will be getting their copies soon, and a couple stores in Harrison will be picking up some copies. as well, hopefully this month, and the Harrison Gift Store, I think, is one that's going to be taking it as well. So that will be great. And then it's online, available online on Amazon.com or Amazon.com or Amazon.ca. Which is, it's neat because my girlfriend from Australia is going to get it. Wow, that's so crazy. Yeah, she's like, I can't wait to get a copy of your book. So it's nice that it is available online and people from all over can get it. Wouldn't it be cool

if it was translated into different languages and stuff, too. That would be so valuable for people to access the book and be able to read it in different languages and connect with it. And that's why, again, I think that it would be so valuable to hear it in your voice. I love that idea. I'm going to definitely pursue that. Well, you know, it's interesting when you think about everybody in the world right now is going through the same thing.

We're going through the same struggles. It's not just Canada, North America, UK. It's everybody. So everybody, every language, every face of the earth is going through this. It's so universal and it really helps us understand that we really are one. Yeah, absolutely. And we get so disconnected and I think social media can focus on where we disagree and not on all the things that we agree on as a community. We never focus on those conversations because I don't think if we were able to get this book as a topic on social media, I don't think it would be controversial.

And like on those levels of like going viral, it's always things that differentiate us and separate us. And I think that this would be something that would go in the opposite direction. Right. And so how can people find you online? They have on my website, it's kimgal.com. And I've got my email address on there as well as they can purchase a book through my website and contact me. Because I love hearing people's reactions and their personal journeys. Because I find that when we tell our story, it opens up people to tell their story, and it's therapeutic.

And so I always encourage people to share their thoughts with me. And it's great because it makes me think that, oh, I am reaching people. It is doing good. All those thousands of hours were worth it. Do you have any stories from anybody who's approached you and said, this was my experience, or this is what I got out of it? That's unique or interesting? Yeah, it's, you know, it's pretty amazing already that, you know, it's only been out a few weeks, but one person commented on how they're using it as their Bible, and it's made them deal with something from their past that was terrible, and it's made them do something about it, and it's made them go to the authorities and make, do something about a raw, right or wrong that somebody did to them. And I just was like, they were crying when they were talking

to me. And I just, you know, it just is so, it makes it all worthwhile. I completely agree. And I do think that there is overlap from your book. And when I was talking about the philosophy side of things is because when you're, science doesn't tell us how to act, as I mentioned before. And I think that your book says, when something happens to you, you don't know what it's going to be. So stop trying to predict what the outcome in the end is going to be, accept where you are, and act accordingly, act positively, don't try and harm people and go into this hump with humility, and that's how you approach this unbelievable circumstance of being in the circumstance that almost nobody knows about. Definitely half the population of men have no idea what you were going through,

plus all the people who haven't had children don't know what that situation is like, and it's overwhelming and it's got to be lonely and scary. And the fact that you said, I'm just going going to keep going forward. I'm going to keep doing the best I can. And I don't know where I'm going to land. I don't know where anything's going to land. I'm just going to keep moving forward. That's the message of this book. And that's what you're telling people. And there's lots of people in circumstances where they don't know where they're going to be in a year. They don't know if their housing stable, their money's stable. And it's just move forward, treat people well and do the best you can as a person, and that message is archetypal, it is biblical, that you should do it

that way, because that's what the Bible's guide is, don't be cane, be able, don't betray people and the hoop people, act in other people's best interest, and it will all come full circle. Eventually, just be patient, and I think the fact that you have two books now shows that that can come full circle over time, that from that position that you were in that day, when you've received that news and all of that was going on, who could have predicted that years later you would be here, an author sharing the story of your two amazing children that went through so much and be able to go through that. We couldn't have predicted that at the time.

No, no, if somebody had said, Kim, you're going to have two children, one's going to have a heart defect, the other one's going to be autistic, and then you're going to write a book about it and do a TED Talk. I'd be like, are you on drugs? I would have been, no way. I would turn around and around and said, I'm not signing up for that. but now I where it's taking me the people I've met the people I've reached with my experience I wouldn't change it and and you know we all you know how blessed to feel that way because

you can't coulda shoulda wooda because we can't you know we just have to accept what has happened be present make the best of it make those best choices and realize that there are silver linings to every situation we're in even this current pandemic yeah and I think that you did a good job of that near the end. You talked about how even if you're 80 or 90, you can still share your story. You can still try and write the book. It's not someday. It's not some specific year that you're supposed to do these things. It's with your own relationship with time and the people you're around and surround yourself with people who can support you in achieving those goals that you've set for yourself that you just believe are part of who you need to become.

Because for me, this podcast, it just felt correct. And every step of the way, when I saw the person create the logo, I was like, that's it. that's what I'm looking for and it just all clicks it comes together when you once you open your mind to it that you're going to do it and you make that decisive decision it's like that you know that old saying when one door closes another one opens like you have to be open to it and accept it and have that leap of faith like that's just and it does it comes together somehow like and you don't know how but it just does and you have to have have that faith is so important and just just do it because we're here for a short time and make the best of it and it'll come together and you'll just be so surprised

how it just happens. Well, I think that we are incredibly lucky to have people like you who take the faith, who take the leap and move forward because you set the rubric on how other people within Chilliwack within their own lives can go and write their own story who can share that with the community because there is no end to how many good stories that we need to hear. We don't know how many are out that we're missing out on if people were just able to say, you know what, today's the day, I'm going to start page one and start moving forward. And I think that you set that example and show that this can be successful and that you can find meaning in the tragedy that you faced at that time. So I really appreciate you taking the time to sit down and share your experiences

and share these books with people. And I think that people can get a lot of value out of them. And I'm just really grateful to be able to promote something so positive and something I can get on the page with 100%. Well, thanks so much, Erin. And thanks for doing what you do, for bringing force people in our community who are wanting to give

a positive impact and reaching people and you yourself taking that leap of faith and spending the money to do this is fabulous. And to invite me as a guest on your show is just an honor to

you've been able to have some very interesting talent and interesting people on your podcast. So it was meant to be. So yeah, you just keep doing what you're doing. Awesome. Well, I thank you again for sitting down and I really hope people go get it. It's Smile Again by Kim Gamble and Kim Gamble, Bravery, Our Journey of Faith, Hope and Love, go pick them up now. I highly recommend them. I'm halfway through. Smile again and looking forward to reading Bravery. Thanks, Aaron. Wonderful to chat with you. Yes, and we just did two hours and 45 minutes.

Wow. Yeah. Holy cow. Time flies. Time flies. That was great.