Nuanced. - 209. Á'a:líya Warbus: Conservative MLA on Cowichan Tribes, Mass Graves & Reconciliation

Episode Date: September 29, 2025

Indigenous MLA Á’a:líya Warbus joins Chief Aaron Pete to discuss breaking stereotypes by joining the BC Conservatives, her journey from treaty work to the legislature, navigating the toxic drug crisis, Indigenous land rights, the unmarked graves story, and what’s next for the party and reconciliation in British Columbia.Send us a textSupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

What I grew up seeing and hearing around my community was that Conservatives and support Indigenous people. And that was the only real understanding I had. There's a preconceived notion that indigenous people will vote NDP or liberal. I imagine you experienced a lot of shock and awe from so many people like, you're breaking the mold. What was that journey like to make that decision and go down that path? One of the things I noticed about the NDP, when I,

look at purely the facts, the budget, the decision. When I think about policy as related to open drug use, criminal activity, harm reduction, where are we putting our money? I just think our communities are suffering. Our kids are dying because of a toxic drug crisis and these policies are not working. Cowich and Tribes decision adds fuel to the fire that it's everyday British Columbians versus indigenous community. It comes at a time where Canadians can't afford a How can you explain the story and what it means? That's what they signed on for, was to settle the land question. But now it's our fault?

This is Canada's responsibility. This is BC's responsibility. Indigenous people are caught up in the fray and the fro of how people play politics with it, how they decide to frame it because it's beneficial to them, how they decide to skew. MLA Dallas Brody has chosen to leave the Conservative Party and start her own party and regularly posts on Twitter now, I would say views that indigenous people get too much support. Aalya, thank you so much for being willing to join us again.

This is your second time on the show. I'm wondering if you would mind just briefly introducing yourself for people who might not be acquainted. At Alia, Telskwi, Huamach Telizu Kwa, Skokhale First Nation, Kesta, Khomaskwim, Samath, Skowlitz, Taelis. My name is Aaliyah, Warbis. I'm Huelmuk, person from the Stalo Territory, specifically born and raised in Skokhale First Nation. And my grandparents all come from communities around Coast Salish territory.

My grandfather was from Mosquiam. My grandmother grew up in Sumas, Samath. I mean, I could go into where their parents are from, would be here all day talking about my family tree. My other grandmother is from the community of Scalots, and my grandfather was from Sealis. My only living grandparent, Rina Pointe Bolton, she was gone for a long time, living in Terrace.

She married up there. She's back now in the Valley. And, yeah, my parents, we were raised in Skokale First Nation where my dad grew up. Beautiful. Are you able to share a bit of the work you do? Yeah, for sure. So I am a member of the Legislative Assembly elected for Chilliwack called This Lake. For short, they just say MLA.A. And, yeah, I do a lot of different work. And it has to do also with the role that I was appointed to by our leader, John Rostadt. I'm part of the Conservative Caucus. So I'm host leader as well for official opposition. It's been a long time since we sat last, and I'm wondering if you can take us back to the beginning.

There are rumblings of an election coming up. When did you start to ponder entering provincial politics? And what was that early process before you had committed to one party or another? What was the kind of things going on that were contributing to you thinking of entering politics? I remember actually the day that this conversation came about because we were in the limits of getting communications, reports, progress ready for a meeting that our chiefs had through the treaty process in order to update them on where they were at with stage five. So there are a number of stages when you're entering into a treaty process.

They identify the stages by the progress that you've made until eventually you get to a document that the federal government, the provincial government, the chiefs, their communities are all happy with that outlines your territory, your different structures that you're going to put into place to govern that territory, land, there's so much technical material that goes into these treaties, these modern-day treaties now, and that's why it takes so long. A lot of it has to do with consensus as well in communications, right, getting people to the table. It's a tripartate effort. And then, of course, because we have such small community Indian Act bans, as defined by the Indian Act, there's a lot of leadership that has to

come together in unity. So anyways, that aside, I was working for our treaty association, which was known as SXTA at one time, and then they moved over to SXG. So they were trying to move and formalized from Stala-Huhulmuk Treaty Association, known as a society under the Society Act of British Columbia, to Stala-Hulmuk government. Self-identifying as a government, which they totally have the right to do under rights that are identified by Section 35 and recognized by the Crown, is to take on that responsibility and act as if. And when you start to do that, then you're imposing identity and a system onto the land, onto the governance of your own people, and reacting to the provincial government, the Canadian government in that fashion. So my role as cultural communications

was a bit of a dog's breakfast. They'll say it that way. It's not the most eloquent term, but to be able to communicate what is leadership doing to the people, to be able to communicate. be able to communicate their calendars and what was happening externally and politically that might affect their work to leadership, to be able to ensure that all the documents circulating were standardized, you know, the briefings were going out, that we had a communication strategy on social media through promotional materials, what's our target audience, what kind of messages do we want to get out to people and what kind of information do we want back for them. So it was this cog in between a really complicated process that, in my opinion,

our people were not really grasping onto, nor did they have the interest for, or even the bandwidth to be able to participate in and have a knowledgeable and informed two-way conversation about. So that's a long way of saying that I came back to work for my community because my heart's always been in that work. And what I observed as a staff, member, you know, sometimes changing my hat because I'm a community member too and I have an invested interest in the work and where it's going to go, is that we did not have that direct line into how does government make these decisions? How does government operate? What happens when government does something that we as an indigenous people are impacted by and that we don't

agree with. How are we understanding how to lobby government officials be able to make better, faster, more, I would say, fluid connections with them in order to get our agenda, move forward as indigenous communities? I wasn't seeing that. I'm not saying that it wasn't happening on any level or in maybe even other places and processes in around BC, but I would say that that was a gap that I had identified. And what worried me is that it always felt as though we're at the table waiting for government. We're waiting for that approval and that stamp to say, here's the process, here's how we're going to fulfill the needs of the process.

And this is when it's going to be up to the standard of what the government of the day says it needs to be. And getting everybody to those tables was just. as painful as potentially even the process itself, which has been going on for 20 years now. And I did notice the pieces fraying. There were missteps, I would say, maybe potentially missed opportunities or just grievances that were not being solved at the leadership level, and the communication was really starting to dwindle.

And I would say that was on the side of our indigenous leadership. and also, you know, like I said, that fluid and concrete conversation and relationship that we need with both the province and the federal government. And so seeing all of that, it started to almost spark those thoughts in my mind of how do we get in there? You know, how do we get knowledge, direct involvement, how do we get our perspectives and voices heard so that potentially, potentially one day these systems are not so inaccessible to us. And what that looks like I have no idea, but I had this impetus inside of me of this is what needs to happen. And I'd seen other indigenous people move into government, but also saw how difficult it

was for them, because it comes with a lot of judgment and it comes with a lot of weight on your shoulder as, oh, well, you're the indigenous person. I know if this ever happened to you, but being the lone indigenous person, and I don't classroom sometimes. You know, as soon as you flip the page to that chapter, we're going to study Indians. All the eyes are on you. And everybody has every question under the sun. And you're like, I'm not even from their paris. I know nothing about TPs. That's what was in our school books, right? When we were introduced, first introduced to indigenous history or culture teachings in elementary and middle school.

So I started to think about it then. It was something that just I couldn't help it. It was there. I had that question of how do we improve this? Because it's really not happening at a rate or a level that I thought was conducive to seeing a actual finished treaty. And we didn't get there. We didn't cross that finish line.

The office, they decided to disband the process. I don't know whatever happened specifically to the funds that were attached to the work and you know that meant that like staff was laid off and all those things but before that happened you know before it basically fell apart and and those six communities that were left in the treaty process in stalo nation in and around stella nation left the table it really did have me thinking about either civic or provincial politics and that gap and I had looked actually to see because Everyday people, I think average people, even myself included, I wasn't thinking about who's the MLA for Chilliwack?

What party are they from? Who won the last election? There are some people who really love this stuff and they follow it. Like a football fan follows the NFL, right? Here it would be the Great Cup, but, you know, Americans, like, what's that? But I really started to become interested, and I saw that we had two NDP representatives here in Chilwok, which actually surprised me because it's typically a very very,

conservative community. Stronghold, yeah. And we've had a, you know, federal conservatives have been here since forever and ever, Mark Stroll. And, you know, before that, it was his dad, Chuck Stroll. And it caused me to look into it a little bit more. And I started looking at different legislative members around BC and kind of looking at the climate of where provincial politics were even across Canada, you know, I knew of Wob Canoe, but I didn't quite know about his journey or, you know, he'd risen to being premier and those things. So it really just started to make that seed of thought grow. And I had said jokingly to my friend who was working with at the time, I'm like, that's it. I'm going to get, you know, I'm going to be an MLA or I should

run and you just kind of say these things and they're just I don't know how you where it came from or how it kind of locked in in that moment yes like how to even describe how these things manifest and then become words and that are spoken aloud but that's kind of what happened and in fact we looked at it and and you know the process and you have to be a part of party and we didn't even know those things. And we talked about it at length. We were kind of Googling for maybe half an hour. And I remember saying to him, I must be crazy because I would never have the time to fit this in with everything else I'm doing. It just wouldn't be possible. Why would I ever do that? And we laughed about it. And then we went home and I was like, ha-ha, I remember yesterday I was

talking about running for MLA. And he's like, ha-ha-ha-ha. And that was that, honestly. And then we had a few colleagues that were working with us at the time who had come from that world. Years and years ago, they had worked with different MLAs and ministers, and they knew a little bit more than I did. And I was sort of reflecting on that story at dinner and saying, yeah, like, oh, I thought about running or, you know, maybe that's just what I need to do. because, again, I had this frustration about the process, and it just felt like we weren't getting there. We were stuck in mud, and I couldn't quite figure out, you know, why was the communication between the different parties not working? Where are we lacking? Are there better processes that exist? Now people are getting into reconciliation agreements or additions to reserve process, you know, and all of this is, I think, positive on a very,

very micro level of these small indigenous bands with a few hundred people apiece because they're able to do it in-house. It's something they can incrementally kind of crank up and see their community grow and the benefits for just them. But to me, if we're going to be doing reconciliations, additions to reserve, and all these kind of deals, even the Heidelandtidal deal across BC for all the over 200 Indian Act bands, we're going to see these processes. this is drag on for a long, long time, just like we've seen the court cases drag on for a long, long time. And we don't have that real resolve in our hands that says,

okay, this is the boundaries, we're going to have by when, and so that people can move on from this land question because it's becoming quite contentious. So anyways, I had passively said to one of my colleagues about running, and he looked at me and he actually said, are you serious about that? And I said half serious. I mean, I just think it's kind of time

and we really need this right now and maybe that level of understanding would be something that we could all benefit from. And he actually started texting on his phone. And I didn't quite understand and we just kept eating dinner and talking shop and all these kinds of things. And little did I know was that he had a connection

to at the time John Rustad's chief of staff. Wow. Yeah. And had texted him to say, hey, have you guys filled Chill about Coltis Lake and sort of having these conversations and said, would you want to meet John Restad? And I said, who? Right.

At that time, you know, a lot of people didn't know who John was, right? And that he was leading this charge of revamping the conservative party. And he even told me the party. and I laughed like, yeah, right, because to me, I had these pre-conceived notions about what I grew up to understand conservatives as. And every group, I think, kind of has their standard opinion and relationship with one party or another that have historically been the same, you know. And to me, what I grew up seeing and hearing around my community was that conservative didn't support indigenous people. And that was the only real understanding I had.

And like I said, I don't think that we as indigenous people feel involved or called to follow politics outside of our communities. And so I said I would take them. meeting, but the entire time before the meeting, it was like my gut and my head and my heart was in conflict of what if and then what, right? Because I didn't really think that he would even approve me as a candidate. I was going there to kind of challenge some of the things I read in his platform. And then I didn't think that I'd actually accept and run. And then I didn't even think that I was going to win. I wasn't sure, right? Because again,

Chilliwack has traditionally been a conservative stronghold, but a lot of times when you live in minority or you're very different from status quo, that's been a difficult journey in a smaller community that has very traditional values. And so I took the meeting and talked with John. And when I did challenge him on things that I thought, as I read them, didn't make sense on paper, we were able to have conducive conversation. And that's honestly all that I really ask of anyone that I'm going to work with. Let's have a conversation about it. And we may not land in the exact same place. But if we can continue a conversation, then that's the important thing.

And we're actually going to be open to one another. That was my first exposure and understanding of who John is, what his values are. and the way that he communicates and he works. And so from that meeting, there was a good rapport, I think, built off of that and wanting to greenlight me as a candidate, but I needed to accept. And, of course, that meant I needed to talk to my husband.

I needed to talk to my children. I needed to talk to my parents, you know, my support system of people who know me and can help me to make the decision, yeah, process the information, make the decision that's going to be best for me. Because there's no certainty, right? Yeah, can't quickly just ask. So I interviewed all of the leaders,

and I was most nervous to interview John Rustad, and the main reason for that is because what is said about him online and how he appears when you read articles, about him is not, is often not the person you're sitting down with and speaking with, right? It's not a perfect matching of the person. So I was nervous because it was like, if he believes everything that I'm reading on the wall rest and all these articles, then we're going to be very combative. But if I go in assuming these articles are the case, then I may be speaking with a caricature

and I may come across as a bad interviewer because I'm like, well, you believe this, right? And he's like, no, that was just some article that was written about it. I don't actually, so like you can come across antagonistic if you lean too much on what was read. And so when I sat down with him, I was like, I don't know who I'm speaking to. Am I speaking to this person or is he a different person than who I'm reading about? Well, I'm just curious about the experience of going in. You have these emotions. You have this preconceived notion.

That's very much how I went into interviewing him. And so I'm just curious, what was that kind of journey through the conversation where you're like, whoa, like, but I read this thing. And it seemed so extreme. and then you're being reasonable. Like it's almost like the veil comes off and you're speaking with a real person. And I'm just curious as to what that interaction was like. Yeah, it definitely was probably similar to the interaction

and the experience that you had. I would say because for me, I go in armored up and I think honestly so many of our people do that. We come in thinking and feeling, well, you don't like me You don't want me to succeed. And, you know, we put already, like, a negative caricature onto ourselves that is going to battle this person. But I actually found John to be very disarming and open and willing to hear me. You know, he didn't speak down to me.

Like, oh, yeah, that's cute. You don't know. He wasn't, he wasn't, what is? patronizing, arrogant or patronizing towards me, and he was more open and willing to listen. And you could see his gears turning when I would talk. And he really listened, I would say, too. He's an active listener as well. And then he offers his point of view. And again, like I said, I wasn't okay, 100% every single thing that you've said. There were things that I thought, yeah, I have to know more about that, and before I can really engage in a conversation, this is the information you've

gathered in what your opinion is on this, because we talked about energy, we talked about SOGI, we talked about land title and DRIPA, you know, and the 435 agreements that he had that he accomplished as the Minister of Indigenous Relations Reconciliation. We covered off some broad areas, including the drug crisis, including, you know, crime rate and mental health and things like that. And I was able to come away with my own conclusion. But it wasn't solely based on the issues. It was about the interaction and the mutual respect that I felt and the communication flow. And the thing I have to say, and I think I've said it in other interviews and I'm not totally sure, is one of the things I've struggled with is being a leader in our own communities. I don't

know why maybe it's one of those things where the comfort and the familiarity at home we have identities that we wear and people know us and then they know us from that and it's almost as if that is a hindrance to being able to authentically step into a role and I just never felt that level of peer to peer relation and support. and that I was heard when I would have genuine questions, concerns, you know, points of view that I was bringing forward about process in terms of, you know, if our leadership is going to make this decision, what does that mean for, you know, an outcome around health for our people? What is, and then what? You know, if we're going to walk away from treaty and then we're going to go. going to individually go down these other paths, then what for kids who are from two to three different families and bands?

And they actually have the cross-section of all of them. Or there's a good program over here, but it's free for band members, but not for, you know, the families and band that's right next door to it. You know, I had real concerns and questions around government structures and governance decisions that I felt were short-sighted. But I didn't feel hurt. I didn't feel supported in those questions or ideas. I felt very like, oh, that's so cute.

Don't worry. We got it. And I just, that energy really turned me off wanting to be involved with our communities. And, hey, is it a provincial government or process perfect? It's a colonial process. It's based off of, you know, British system that was inherited here. No. But when you feel that a relationship is going to be, can do.

to work actually moving forward, then, yes, me personally, I'm going to be more inclined to invest and put my time into that than I am going to be somewhere where I actually don't feel like I'm being heard or supported as a community member would be. Can I ask then, what was the response when you mentioned you spoke to your family and your friends about this may be the path? Was there any consideration, or did you meet with the NDP or other parties to kind of go, do I want to look somewhere else? Is this the right relationship? And then to your point, there's an overwhelming feeling in so many First Nation communities that it's liberal or NDP.

And I really like the struggle that you went through just in terms of understanding that it's the same challenge I saw. I often try and weigh the amount that Justin Trudeau spent as prime minister and how the amount of spent, and causes inflation, and who does inflation impact people on fixed incomes, who are on fixed incomes, many indigenous communities. And so the amount of investment he did versus the cost of inflation on those communities, you will never know the exact amount of benefit versus cost for people who are just trying to buy milk at the grocery store. And I do think some parties think they are more connected to indigenous communities and

don't always go and earn those votes and learn about. those communities and build those relationships to the same extent. And so there's a preconceived notion that indigenous people will vote NDP or liberal automatically. And your decision to do that really just, I think, I imagine you experienced a lot of shock and awe from so many people of like, you're breaking the mold. And so I'm just curious, what was that journey like to make that decision and go down that path? I did experience a lot of internal question. along the way to saying yes, to door knocking, to wearing that conservative shirt, honestly,

you know, and asking my own family members to come and doork with me, it was almost like a a mental and emotional struggle day to day. And it had to do with how much do I let in that people are going to say to me, challenge me on, and want to eat up my time and energy, having an online, on-a-comment, thread, argument back and forth about the history of land title and rights or what it means to, you know, stand up for a minority group or what are the real facts about this

or this person who's in your party said this. And so what do you have to say for that? Really actually learning how to navigate being a public figure. What do you spend your time on and what do you let go of? Well, guess what? There's this much time. Everybody's got the same amount every single day. half of it you need to sleep

half of the other half goes to your children your family your self-care all those things and then you've got this little chunk left for work and focus and where are you going to put your attention right and for me I really had to start to make those separations from what people are going to say versus what am I going to do

am I going to respond to every negative comment or a person who thinks I'm doing the wrong thing or doesn't understand the intricacies of how politics are evolving and shifting right now in BC in 2025. You know what do party labels really mean if conservatives are going to claim the space of everything right of center?

Where is the conservative platform and movement right now in Canada? I can't speak for other provinces or even federally. But answering that question was something I get to be a part of. I get to make those goalposts move. And one of the things I noticed about the NDP because you brought that up for myself

is that as a young person and even like throughout being an activist for land rights and, you know, people will try to put you in a hole and say, oh, at one time you fought for this or that. A lot of times it's really just about voice. The issue is this secondary peace for anyone fight and that includes the marches that we did and the speeches I've made

in all kinds of different venues. But when I look at purely the facts, the budget, the decisions, and I think you're etching on this when we're talking about Trudeau and his time as prime minister, what's the benefit for BC? What am I actually seeing with my own two eyes and in my community that I live in, when I looked at those facts and then the policies and the ideology of the NDP, it's not that I couldn't see my heart fitting there, you know, because they're very open and care about, you know, social issues and there really is like an acceptance value that's very high. but when I think about policy as related to open drug use, criminal activity, harm reduction,

where are we putting our money? To me, I just think our communities are suffering. Our kids are dying because of a toxic drug crisis. We're the ones that run the majority of those negative statistics. We are the ones that are bearing our nieces, our nephews, our brothers, our aunties, our uncles and these policies are not working. And that was one of the main turning points for me.

Like I said, you're never going to agree 100%. The NDP don't agree within their caucus 100%, right? You're always going to deal with the spectrum of values and beliefs. But when it came to core issues and even things like resource development, I had a lot of learning to do. And I think the average person, again, like any issue, doesn't take the time to really understand what is the standard of environmental assessment? What is the standard of environmental impact?

Are there different nations around BC that want different things? We cannot assume that every single nation is opposed to development, pipelines, LNG. They are autonomous and they get to decide what projects will or will not go ahead. And there are so many layers to that decision, including the process, the, you know, the overlaps, all those kinds of things that could be fixed. And what happens is we just apply one label and one sticker to it. And we say, oh, this is what all indigenous people think and feel it's not, right? We have diverse education levels, belief systems, needs economically, otherwise all across the whole spectrum. And so to think that, oh, we all belong in this one box of one party is,

fairly outdated and doesn't give the benefit that, hey, we're evolving as a community too. Because ultimately, you're representing your community, right? Despite the party lines, you still are supposed to bring the voice of your constituents forward. When you decided to put your name forward for this party, it wasn't where it is today. It was in a very, very different position. Did you see the writing on the wall in regards to the conservative party? Did you see the opportunity where the BC United Party could collapse and then the conservatives would take over?

That just seems like such a shocking idea. And just in sitting down with Kevin Falcon, I mean, we had him on this show promise that he would never entertain such an idea. Like, gave that reassurance. And then when we released the episode, we released it two days before he ended up folding the party down. Oh, wow. And so just the, like, I could have never guessed that that was going to be the outcome. So what was that process to decide to commit to that party, but also did you know then where you could end up and that this would all end up where it did? I did have people that were advising me and who were looking at the larger trend of where BC was at and where people's frustration was.

And people who are steeped into the world of politics, they do have predictions. but it's like a weather person, you go, oh, it's 20% rain and then it pours, right? So we did have a mark that we were aiming for. I did look into who else was in and joining the party before I made my final decision. At that point, we did know there were talks for other BCU potential movement laterally, but all of that was under wraps, right? and so when I looked at other people who were running, that also gave me the boost of confidence to know that I had allyship within the party, people that I knew based off of the work and the

advocacy that they did or their profile, that we were of a like mind and potentially even background or understanding and life experience that there was going to be synergy, right? But, yeah, there were predictions, but nothing certain. And so we did feel that we even had a shot at government potentially. But that was before. Obviously, all the opposition research came out from the NDP. They had dug deep on a lot of different people that had run. And as you said, people look at an article or a headline and they take that as someone's personality.

Right? they just do that is how media works that's how public perception works and in a lot of ways that's the only access we have it for information for someone and so that is what we make our decision on we go well they said this about this group of people they must be evil they must be bad but people are complex like isn't anyone's grandpa ever said something off-colored well guess what he didn't have cameras and reporters in his face to make that live forever and now with things like Twitter, which became X, and, you know, the ability for people to just willy-nilly put their thoughts out there that can be captured by someone forever, we also had a lot of stumbling blocks,

I would say, where there's a lack of awareness or discipline for people having times where they've been rightly frustrated and how they express that and, you know, maybe how that gets captured and then resurfaced later on is going to affect them and discredit them. But by approximation and proximity, it's going to affect me as well. And that was one of the things that I struggled with with people posing a question to me. Well, they said this. So what do you think about that? And we want your opinion right now. And in the beginning, I just felt as though I had to give whatever anybody asked of me to them. Yeah, and you quickly learn that that's actually not true.

You know, as people, we get to pick and choose what conversations we want to be a part of what questions and demands actually require us to give our time to. And I was able to begin, and this is a big learning journey for me personally, to be a lot more autonomous, a lot more, you know, steep with my, my boundaries and my protections that I have around me and realizing that not every question deserves a response, especially when someone is coming at you with a volatility and a preconceived notion and a certain, you know, negativity towards you. A goal to hurt you or to hurt another person using you. Yeah, and whether that comes from fear, whatever, all those things, that's them, right? That's their reality.

But that doesn't mean they have to jump up and defend myself every single. time that I have to like argue to the bloody knuckle stage for every single thing. And they call those like hills to die on, right? And I just learned how to very quickly have discipline for, you know, what issues? What's my stance? I've made that very clear. You need to ask that person about when they said that thing at that time. But this is our stance. This is where the party sits on that issue. No, we will not do this. It's federal. You know, you very quickly learn what your lane is and how to stay in it. And that's, that's, that's, that's, that's a discipline of being a politician of being able to know where can you affect change and where can you not. And all of

those areas like have, have nots, you learn it's a federal thing. You learn that that's a case law thing that will never change. You learn that that's something that the party will never take on. And, and that's what you say about those things. You don't have to get into these philosophical woes and what ifs and oh, you know, with people that just want to take a piece of you. Like, that is their main goal. And a lot of times they're elevating themselves and using my platform to do it. And I started to learn how to just not pay attention to that. Can I ask about that?

And you can choose not to answer, but there are things that elevate to something where you do need to respond. And it's trying to find that balance. And there were voices in the conservative party that were, I feel like, probably very far away from where you were, and that impacts your, how people perceive you because you're under the same umbrella. And there's a balance between, well, like, we're all allowed to disagree, where MLA, Dallas Brody has chosen to leave the conservative party and start her own party and regularly posts

on Twitter now, I would say, views that indigenous people get too much support, that we're getting too much from the provincial and federal government. So how did you navigate that? Because that became kind of a public challenge that you were placed under. And I imagine that wasn't an ideal position for you to want to be and you weren't seeking out that challenge. I'm just wondering how you processed that and other perhaps conservative voices that were very far away from you on truth and reconciliation, indigenous issues and indigenous priorities. I always take it back to my purpose.

purpose, my why, for why am I there? And that's actually one of the reasons. It is that conversation that we've not been wanting to have. And that actually turns us away from being involved or being in an uncomfortable space and feeling as though we are targeted in some way. and there's a lot of understanding to be gained about why from their perspective are they saying and doing those things as well. And again, not saying that I'm going to engage in every single fact or fight or opinion or, you know, just like post that's going to take my energy or take the wind out of my sales.

But I return to the fact that we need to be there to what. those things, those storms, those misconceptions, ourselves. Because the further away that we are from the conversation and we may be doing excellent work. And I think a lot of leaders like you are doing amazing work in our communities. You know, before the podcast, we were talking about the housing and, you know, transference of knowledge and all those things. But we need to be in those rooms to start to kill those conversations and not kill them with, you know, hate and negativity, but with knowledge and kindness and patience, right? Because I'm not there to change anyone. I truly am just entering

these spaces as myself. I'm bringing my whole self, culture, beads, earrings, you know, trauma and all, right? And when there's really something that I feel needs my voice and that I'm going to stand firm on, then I'm going to fight. But there's been so many things that I thought would meet that threshold that actually haven't because it becomes, what power do they have? What truth are they really speaking? Who are they influencing? What, you know, what are they actually going to do about it?

And the answer a lot of times is no one, nothing, nowhere. and it's not my job to go around and educate people who are closed off to progressing reconciliation forward. It's my job to represent my constituents to be the House Leader for the official opposition, to influence policy conversation when and where I can, and to remember that I play such a tiny, tiny role in the larger provincial conversation of, you know, legislative process and laws and debates. And in my community, I get to go around and authentically be me and help an everyday person who has disabilities, who has trouble navigating the health care system, who's facing

and struggling homelessness, who's looking for their child, who doesn't have enough money this month, who needs advocacy for a health care center, the list goes on and on and on and on. And so when I go back to my focus and I'm able to emotionally detach from things that do make me feel angry, small, you know, attacked, or that feels maybe this is a racial profile or an assumption, I really just have to return back to my strength and my why and my purpose. And that is how I stay out of the shit. There's one issue that has really, I think, impacted indigenous communities, and that's this unmarked grave story. And I did an hour breakdown going through the full history of Indian residential schools, all of the reports that showed the horrible living conditions of those schools, the 3,200 children that did die at those schools that's undisputed. but this unmarked grave story, I feel like really complicated our relationship with Canadians. And that's what I tried to honor, because from everything that I understand,

to Kemloops found 215 anomalies, ground disturbances using ground penetrating radar. Their argument is that they have survivor testimony that say that there were children buried there and that this ground-penetrating radar goes to support that. Conservatives like MLA Dallas Brody, Francis Widowson, Nigel Beghar, Candice Malcolm, individuals I've interviewed argue that's not evidence of 215 lost children. That that is something worth looking into, but it does not amount to the claim the CBC made that 215 children died in that apple orchard. And in order to make that claim, you need more evidence.

to me, I view that as an institutional failure of the media to properly report that story from the start because then that brought in $246 million worth of federal funding for more research. It brought in the National Day of Truth and Reconciliation, which I think is a good thing, and it brought in a larger conversation, which I think was a reckoning we needed to have. But it was potentially, we don't know until they excavate, built on shaky grounds. and people who raise, hey, we don't have proof of 215 lost children are called Indian residential school deniers. And the challenge with that term is that they're not denying the history of a residential

schools, the 3,200 confirmed lost children. They're questioning a very recent story from 2021. And I've looked into Sean Carleton, who coined the term Indian residential school denier. And it's not even disputed that that does not mean that they deny any of that history. And so, to me, that was a political move by Mr. Carlton to use that terminology to denounce people and go, you're a residential school denier. And anybody who hears that is going to go, oh, my God, how could you deny such an atrocity? Like, that's sickening.

You're a bad person. But if you are just asking, well, we haven't excavated, that seems not unreasonable. And I think people who want to raise that, like MLA, Dallas, Brody-Franciswood, should do something. so understanding the full history of residential schools and the abuser who was at to Kemp Loops, who actually did harm children and rape children at that school, who did go to jail for that. Like, we have to put that all into the full context that exists, but it feels, and I like your opinion on this, it feels like that story is weighing the reconciliation conversation down

in a significant way. Federally, we didn't hear reconciliation didn't break the top five issues. It was the economy, it was housing, it was the Trump tariffs. It was all other things. But reconciliation was Trudeau's priority. It didn't end up being Mark Carney's priority. And it was not the same conversation provincially that it was previously. And so how do you interact with that story?

Well, when I hear you break it down in that way, I'm very grateful, first of all, because, again, I think someone like you with your background in school, schooling, your level of communication and openness, it allows for you to take a look at the whole picture and say, this is what this person is doing, that is their intention with that, and this is where their belief comes from, right? So you're actually breaking down not just preconceived notions, but what's behind that and the many layers. My big question, it comes down to being very, very simple, and that is why. And you can never truly get someone to answer that question.

And we don't even know if they've asked themselves that. And the issue with going on a deep dive down all of these rabbit holes of, what actually happened in this instance with these 215 anomalies and poking holes into the residential school narrative, you can call it a pursuit of truth, but quite honestly, is that the best use of an elected person's time? I know how busy I am as an MLA here. here until what cult is like, I know what my constituents expect of me. And if I'm spending

all of my time, that's not even, that was not even her critic role. We have a critic for that file for a reason. But if that is, becomes your main narrative and your passion, and then you start to gain a following. And I would say almost like a cult sort of, you know, explosion and in your identity and you become known to be this indigenous narrative witch hunter, it just kind of bakes the question of why? Why is that the top issue to you? Why are you doing that? Why has that become your passion and almost in a lot of ways your identity? When we have homelessness, health care on the brink of collapse, the largest deficit BC's ever seen, Food pink lineups beyond comprehension, you know, children in care, incarcerations are up, swinging door on crime, you know, people that are suffering and struggling, we still have the highest statistics in all of those categories.

Why? Because of all the reasons you said. Because of things that people did spend money on to get real reports about and the fact that many of our children didn't return home. I have a five-year-old daughter and the reality of that is when I look at her some days I have to hold back tears because I think about somebody coming to my door and saying no she's coming with us

we're going to cut her hair we're going to strap her hit her, punish her, lock her in a room starve her and also she might not come back and you're just going to have to deal with that otherwise you'll be arrested

That's our fucking reality I buried two of my nieces and nephews One killed themselves by train The other he was very smart He was in sciences at UFE He killed himself by using helium Because he knew that was the easiest way to die That's my brother's kids

My other niece drug overdose my aunt drug overdose, my other aunt, drug overdose. Young man stepped in front of a train. Our friend that worked over at Squyala, train just last month. That's our reality. So the fact that somebody wants to and feels it's necessary that they're going to police the government on how much money indigenous people get or don't get

based on the interpretation of a word that hasn't been all the way discovered yet and not giving the band and the people in that community time to grieve and process the way that they deserve you know, Camus is one of the most successful bands business case studies in all of British Columbia.

They've made a lot of money on their own. Has anybody crawled into their books and found out how, when, or why, where their investments lie? No. But on a surface level, it begs, the question of why and we'll never get a true

answer out of someone like that because they're going to say oh we're holding accountable we want the truth everyone deserves you know but really why look inside yourself look inside of your heart and be honest why is that

your main goal and purpose in life and thing that you strive for because you want reconciliation to go backwards. You want the average Canadian to feel less bad. You want them to see the residential schools as mostly good for indigenous people. Look what did Tim Tealman say in that one post? We gave you the light bulb. Well, guess what? We didn't ask for any of that.

We didn't ask to be ripped away from our families. We didn't ask for people in our community to be steeped in addictions. We didn't ask for smallpox. Thank you. We didn't ask for 95% of our people to die. People say, oh, you're only 3% of the province. Yeah, do you know why? Because 95% of our people died. Look around you. That's nine people standing around you right now.

Right? It's complicated. It has layers, but people are never going to understand the pain and the trauma and the loss and the fight like you and I do. And I like that because one of the pieces that you see in economically successful times is we're able to have complex conversations. But once you drop into a famine mentality, a zero-sum thinking, when Canadians can't put food in their fridge or heat their home because of a carbon tax or all of these different issues, they can't have those complicated conversations on how do we take care of the environment, regardless of what your position is on climate change initiatives and funding for, clean energy products. We all agree we shouldn't pollute our rivers. We shouldn't destroy our forests.

We should keep our ecosystems and these things fresh and clean and appropriate. But you can't have those conversations when you can't heat your home. Because people aren't just, they're just not able to sit at that table. And a lot of the time, it's where can we get to? And I feel like part of the reason these conversations are starting to happen is because we need a villain. And Donald Trump makes a tremendous villain. and this individual, Dallas Brody and others, see indigenous communities as being a tremendous villain to their story because it explains, well, you can't have food in your fridge because we're giving all the money over here.

And that's the real problem. If we stop giving the money over here, we'll have a great health care system. And no disrespect, we're spending a lot of money on health care, and our health care outcomes are not top-not. And just giving more money to people who are, I mean, one report about a year ago that I asked Premier Eby about, was that we're paying some of these people $300,000 a year, and we've got 11 health directors, and Alberta has, like, two, and they're making half of what they are in BC.

And so, like, where are we spending the money? It seems like a more productive conversation on the whole budget than one group of people, and these people have been disadvantaged. And so I think we still have control of the conversation in the sense of, like, most Canadians, a poll came out that found most Canadians are still very sympathetic, but that this conversation is having an impact. The next one I wanted to ask about is the Cowich and Tribes decision, which has recently come out, which again, I feel like adds fuel to the fire that it's everyday British Columbians versus indigenous

communities, and that continues to be, seems to be the framing of it. And I feel bad because I imagine these questions come more to you than all of your colleagues, but it's in part because you have a deeper understanding of how complicated this conversation is. But I do feel like, again, that decision comes in at perhaps the worst political time to have such a conversation about land rights when people can't afford a house. And then there's this decision coming out that's, I think, being misunderstood. It's going to be appealed. It's going to be a long process no matter how you cut it.

But it comes at a time where Canadians can't afford a house. And now it's like, well, even if you own your house, the narrative is, well, then maybe indigenous communities will be coming for your house after that. So can you tell me about that story and just maybe the weight that falls onto your shoulders in regards to when stories like that come out? I imagine everybody's calling you. Can you explain the story and what it means? Yeah, for sure.

And I go back to that analogy, right, of the lone indigenous person in a classroom. And I understood that there would be a lot of that pressure put onto my shoulders coming into it. How much pressure? By what measure is alarming. Right? And that all came to light with, you know, Dallas taking such a strong position on what she did with the 215 at that time. And I had to look into that as well. I had to go back and read, you know, reports and the TRC and do all the same things that you did to make sure that I was really steeped in the reality of the situation before even offering an opinion. But when we talk about things like Cowichin, there are layers. is a federal layer, there's a provincial layer, there's the indigenous to indigenous relation layer, Cowtran and Musquium, and then there's a civic layer, and then now we have

this private property fee simple layer, right? And the fact is for me that BC has sown its own complicated garden, and now it's right for picking. The land question's been around for a long, long time, right, since Royal Proclamation. And when indigenous people were put onto reserves, over 200 of them, and had circles drowned essentially around where they were at that time, many people were harvesting or, you know, fishing or added one part of their territory seasonally and said, hey, you're going to be stuck here. We're going to take your kids. You can't leave. You can't get an education. You can't become military because then you'll lose your status. And we'll be back to settle this and sign treaties with you. And that's the promise that was made. Not by us.

Yeah. By the crown. And that was inherited to British Columbia and Canada. You know, British Columbia became a part of Confederation. That's what they signed on for. Right. Was to settle the land question. But now it's our fault. This is Canada's responsibility. This is BC's responsibility. Indigenous people are caught up in the fray and the frow of how people play politics with it, how they decide to frame it because it's beneficial to them, how they decide to skew the actual potential outcome of something that hasn't happened yet, right?

We all know that case law exists because it sets a precedent that can then be followed. And indigenous land, rights, and title have always fallen under Section 35. The Constitution, thank goodness for the foresight of our leaders back then, you know, when they went on that train right across Canada to fight for that. Otherwise, we wouldn't even be having this conversation today. But we stand on a constitution that is homemade in Canada. Canada that actually cannot be changed and case law that has set precedence that's out of

your hands and my hands and every politician that decides to comment on it at the moment. The framing is all about getting the media jacked up on a story that's exciting that they can put out that's going to get a lot of clicks and comments and interaction and that's going to get people yelling at the screen and phone and TV, right? Because it carries it for longer than a 24-hour news cycle because then the next big thing's going to happen everyone's going to forget.

And they know that it needs to be somewhat exciting and alarming. That's politics. And one of the things that I struggle with is that people play politics with some of our deepest, most important issues. And that's just how the game

is played is what I'm learning. You know, like things are said a certain way because they know that it's going to spark a lot of controversy, or it's going to, you know, get reactions out of people. When the application of the law and the legislation attached and the conversation happens with those specific communities, guess what? It's just like that example of reading something of paper that someone said and then meeting

them in person. Exactly. People talk a big game behind a keyboard and an article and an opinion. And then guess what? You meet them in person. They're all smiles and handshakes and cordial. Because that's how we are as humans. We're so cowardly, right?

And the reality of these negotiations and land title in British Columbia is that's going to be another generation's bronte bear. We're going to push this along a little ways and hopefully have a positive impact on these conversations and bringing reconciliation to a good place, eliminating the fear, the race, to race, battle and misunderstanding, the road that takes us farther apart and set a closer together, understanding that as indigenous Indian Act bans, we're just as much a part of the

ecosystem as any municipality, you know, as any other large corporation business district stakeholder, right? We get, we drive on the roads, we go to the grocery store, we put gas in our car. A great many of us are trucks, right? We use all of the resources just as much as anybody else around us. And the fact is, is that inside of our bodies is the heart and the blood that every single person has. And we all kind of want the same things. But what politics does is it drives a wedge because that's good for politics. What the media does is it drives that wedge harder because that's good for media. That makes a great story. And as an indigenous, as politician, the Conservative Party of British Columbia right now

in the middle of all of these complicated discussions, I have to keep my head on straight. And I have to be true to my values and who I am. And I'm never not going to fight the good fight for indigenous people, but I'm never not going to be open to the conversation of other British Colombians who do feel worried or threatened or are, you know, it's hard done by. We've got to kind of catch everybody up and get everyone on the same page.

And for me, the way to do that is by being honest, forward-facing, forthright, you know, collaborative, kind, patient, understanding, open. But I have my moments too. And when it comes to, again, this very specific conversation, I'm not so into the fear-mongering as maybe other politicians might be because it's beneficial to them and their position or their goals or maybe. Maybe they really do believe that those possibilities are true or that that's what their constituents are telling them. And so they're having to come forward with that position and ensure their constituents know that they're fighting for them. Again, the people affected and people talking about this everywhere is because of the precedence, right? But where the precedence is actually going to matter, and you would know this as a lawyer is going to be Supreme Court of Canada. Right?

This is dropping a bucket. One judge who said, yeah, the burden is there. It creates the shadow on private land. Guess what? That's true. She made a true assessment, you know. And some people may have an opinion about how far that assessment went and the broach onto different land use rights, fishing rights of different groups.

And, hey, as indigenous people, we used to settle that with a slough game. And if that didn't work, then, yeah, we were at war with each other as well. like many other nations around the world. We're in a different world now. The war is suits and books and case law and arguments, and it takes a long, long, long time. But I'll go back to what I, you know, started with talking about this is

this was all handed down to us by a system and a government of the day that did not settle treaties when they had the opportunity to. And because that was, work was not done. Now it's an indigenous people's problem for trying to catch up economically, for trying to fulfill a promise of getting land bigger than, you know, this tiny, tiny little dots that we live on right now that give us no opportunity. Oftentimes it was right by the railway tracks or right by the power lines, right, you know, the basically like the crappiest pieces,

little corners, or like I said, somewhere way up and no man's land because we're hunting, whatever. and we're now trying to enter into and play in a level playing field economically with the rest of British Columbia, I'm not going to apologize for that. And no indigenous person should either. I like that because, yeah, when you think back, and most Canadians probably don't know this for British Columbians, that Tommy Douglas agreed on anticipatory reserves, and that's what he had substantiated. And then Joseph Trutch, at the time, brought those down from 100%, down to 10% all the way down to 1% in certain cases. basis because he thought that the Indian problem would come to an end in not too distant future because of tuberculosis and disease and stuff like that. And so so much of this needs the context in order for people to kind of grapple with the facts.

I guess my final question to you is you're heading back into the legislature shortly in about a month here. I'm just curious, what is the goal of the Conservative Party over the next year, over the next sitting? What can we expect? And how do you hope to hold the government accountable? Well, we're definitely chasing down a number of complicated high-level issues that affect all British Columbians right now. Crime?

Health care. The drug crisis. Education. Housing. Right? Maybe flipping the last two, because housing is obviously at the top of a lot of people's list right now because of the plain fact that a lot of people can't afford to get into housing. They can't afford to build a house. They've let go of the notion of being able to own, be a homeowner here in British Columbia,

and be able to feed, clothe their kids and all the other things, especially if you're on one income, right? So those issues continue to be at the forefront. The land question, it definitely bears weight because of the decisions, like because of communities crossing the line on being able to settle through discussions with government certain aspects of their, you know, potentially it's a treaty context or it's a reconciliation agreement context. You know, we talked about the different avenues right now.

That is always going to, I think, become a hot topic or hot button issue for people because of the way that it's perceived and how that's going to affect the larger community. So in session, I know that the union pressure is going to. going to only ramp up for the NDP. We have a lot of critical questions that have been building over the summer months, as we've all been doing casework in our own respective areas. And we're going to apply the pressure when it comes to the budget, spending, and cuts, because our constituents and our stakeholders need clear answers, right? And I know for a fact that the ICBC file is definitely ramping up. You know, there is a lot of questions from a lot of people. Where is no fault going?

How does private play a role in that? And when are we going to see legislative changes? That's going to be more conducive to the average person who wants good insurance. But guess what? When they get into a crash, they also want the grievances that's owed to them as well, right? And I'm speaking to lawyers in our local area about that. We have a lot of issues in the backcountry right now with their homelessness population. And there's a lot of issues coming up in and around education as well. And like materials in school follow up onto how our parents and our rights for our children going to be recognized under this current model of government

because it also does feel like the nucleus of the fact. family as being a little bit torn apart and it's as though we don't even recognize ourselves within the unit of the family anymore, you know, our connection to our kids and what rights we have to say yes and no. When other, you know, a doctor or a counselor or someone can come and overstep the right in the connection you have to your child, things like that can be very alarming for people, right, especially in the day and age of drug addiction and mental health, right? So a lot of the things that are going to come forth in the spring session, we're at the mercy of the government of the day. You know, they're the ones at table legislation.

They set the schedule and we respond to it. But I do know that we have legislation that was left over from last session. Some of that has to do with driving for young people, the graduated licensing program, getting rid of the second test. We debate about some nuts and bolts, things like that. But, I mean, it's anybody's guess what legislation that the government, the NDP government right now is going to actually put forward. We hope to see things that people have been asking for. I know that there's some concern around the sick days for small businesses and the burden that they have on their shoulders because, you know, there should be a certain threshold for what you need to provide as a business owner to your employees

and not just a blanket application. And we're finding that an issue with the NDP government is they attend. to have, you know, big swings and blanket solutions for things that actually don't work for the diversity that we see in British Columbia right now and the economic strain that people are feeling. We want to see a lot stronger advocacy with the federal government right now. We need to really push back for our forestry sector and ensure that BC is a contender in the arena right now,

and especially when it comes to talks and things that may be breaking down in federal level with Donald Trump and with the U.S. and our neighbors to the south. But again, we're doing work on our own, creating conversations ourselves with senators and elected officials in Washington who do want to be collaborative with us, you know, and that's more at the provincial state level.

So there's a lot of things that are coming down the hatch. There's a lot of things to address. And I feel like right now people kind of feel like their hair's on fire a little bit. In my position, that's what I feel any given day. You know, but I go back to the advice and the sage wisdom that I've gotten from other leaders and people who have been so gracious and kind

to take me under their wing to say, yeah, we're going to move and kick the can down a little bit further than the last person. But you're not going to solve it all the day. You're not going to change the world by yourself. It takes many. It takes you having these conversations. It takes other chiefs, other counselors

who have innovation and education. It takes other, the government and the minister you know, and it takes the nurses, the doctors, everybody, you know, every board, every stakeholder, every organization. And literally, I play like this, like, sliver role of going around authentically being myself, offering my voice and my energy to something and having conversations that need to be had to elevate an issue or bring a file, you know, closer to completion, that that's what we deal with in my office is case files for constituents and working on a toxicity thing

right now in Ferry Creek. There's a spray happening south of the border. We don't have control over, but we're in a hearing process right now. And we'd love to get more advocacy and support from the Minister of Environment and the Minister of Waterland Resource, right? But that has yet to come to fruition. And hopefully I get to have those conversations. Sometimes I bug them in the hallways at the legislature to be, you know, hey, I need help with this. And if they have the time, they're gracious enough to offer like staff support or they themselves will work on it with me, right? We work across the aisle all the time.

We may look as though we completely hate each other on TV and question period if anybody ever watches that, which I don't think the numbers are that high. But in reality, it is a collaborative process. At the day, we do need to have good relation across the aisle because we all have different needs and wants, right? But as opposition, we have to be tough. Our job is to question the government, hold their feet to the fire when things aren't working. And right now, things aren't working.

Beautiful. How can people follow your work and stay in touch? You can follow me. I have a website and a profile with a conservative party. I have also the same kind of profile and website as a member of the Legislative Assembly through the BC government website. You know, I have my socials. And the thing about social media for me is it's one of those places that I like to post what. I'm doing and my interaction with community, and I'm not one of those warrior, social media warrior politicians. It just has never really been my skill or my desire, but I will be on there from time to

time, especially if there's an issue that I'm trying to kind of get a feel or look into. But, yeah, all that stuff's out there. Just Google me, honestly. Thank you so much for this conversation. It was very refreshing not to have talking points or anything like that and have a real conversation and just kudos to you for being willing to take this on. There's so much going on in the provincial political level and it's a lot of weight for anybody to put their name forward, but you have really come in at a time where there's a lot of tension and a lot of politics

and trying to manage that. I just kudos to you for being willing to approach that. I really appreciate it and I'm grateful to have your voice in the legislature. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. You're just going to be able to be. You know,