Nuanced. - 234. Samantha Beynon: What Indigenous Stories Can Teach Canadians

Episode Date: April 20, 2026

Samantha Beynon joins Aaron Pete to discuss Indigenous stories, reconciliation, language, family, elders, and children’s books, and how food, culture, and storytelling can bring people together in a divided time. She is a PhD student and the author of Hamburger Soup and Looking for Luŋa Moon.Send us Fan MailSupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Samantha, thank you so much for being willing to join us. It's a pleasure to have you. Would you mind briefly introducing yourself for people who might not be acquainted with your work? Yeah, my name is Samantha Bainan. I was born and raised in Lecheon, so colonially known as Prince Rupert. And I moved to Victoria on Wissanich and the Gwanguan Territory when I was about 18 to attend post-secondary. I'm from the Nisca and Simciani. I'm a mom of three and my backgrounds in teaching. I just taught just for a short time. But, yeah, so I'm currently a PhD student and author. I'm so sorry. No worries. I'm just going to put this guy down. And yeah, so we're really busy. We have animals, cats, dogs, kids, writing picture books. That's just kind of my life, you kid. I'm just, I love it. Super busy. Well, I'm very excited to have you on. I don't know if you know this, but I'm entrenched in a lot of the politics of British Columbia and Canada trying to keep up and there's a lot of discussions in the Conservative Party about repealing DRIPA. From my perspective, the Premier has taken a unique approach to reconciliation and there's been some challenges with his response to the Musqueam Agreement and there's just a lot of politics that goes on. And I think sometimes even for myself, I need to ground myself. again in the culture and in the beauty of both cultures because I think one of the biggest errors we made early on in Canada's founding was that we didn't see the best in both cultures.

The West really started to look at indigenous culture as savages as less than, that they were better than, that they knew more than. And I think that misses the mark. And I think the more we get locked into, is it this agreement, is it that agreement? Is it that agreement? Is it it this law, is it that law? Like, we sort of forget what the goal of reconciliation, the goal of a country is, which is to share culture, share values, share food, share understanding of each other. And I think your books do an excellent job of that, and we'll dive into that in a minute. But I'm just wondering, how do you approach that? Do you pay a lot of attention to the politics, or do you just try and focus on the culture? How do you approach that?

I do, actually. So it's really, I think when a lot of my work is grounded in working with indigenous children, and I find that, especially with picture books, the category is quite young. But for me, it is very much strategic as well. Like how do we incorporate reconciliation, our history, and what's kind of going on right there, and how do we incorporate our indigenous research methodologies in our work? So for politics, yes, it is very much the work is how can we also take responsibility and work together and reconcile together without it, you know, not necessarily pointing fingers. But I do, I do often wonder if we move too quickly with some of the more trauma-centered narratives for picture books for children. And they're very

much needed because that is a part of our history. That's what happened. And we need to tell those truths. But I don't know if we were set up as a country to teach those trauma-centered narratives. And what I think is there's only, you know, sometimes like they say like two to five percent of indigenous peoples left in Canada. So I wonder like what about our feelings and when we're reading these books like how were the children responding? So yeah, I am paying attention to politics. And it's hard to fit that in in a very child-friendly way. I'm wondering how much do you think about the connecting people with the most beautiful parts, the most meaningful parts of First Nations culture and the value systems?

Because one example I often refer to is for people from the West who think their system is better, is how did they treat their seniors during COVID? because I think that that's a stark difference to how First Nations culture treat our elders. We look to them for wisdom, for guidance, and for support, and they're often the ones that look at the young ones and see where they're heading, what skills they have, what gifts they have to share with the world. And I don't think the West does a good job of uplifting their seniors. I think the whole approach of once you're 65, you go into an old folks home and people forget about you.

I think it's just a terrible thing. And so there's so many of those pieces that indigenous culture can help strengthen the West. And there are pieces of our life, like books, like writing, like having stories written down that are good from the West to indigenous culture. And so how much does that thinking go into your writing? You know, it's so weird because we grew up that way and we think that way. So naturally when I'm writing, it was so natural to incorporate elders. and to learn alongside an elder. But, you know, what's really weird was that wasn't necessarily like a strategy of like trying to incorporate indigenous ways of being. That was very much of just

like who I was and how I learn. And yeah, so I definitely do think that there's a lot of learning through that lens. But the stories that I write are contemporary with a little bit of like weaving history through there. And, And yeah, I love food. And I think that, yeah, children and elders are the ones that they're going to be, there are leaders. So I think that's what I do. I love about writing. And I think I'm, you know, obviously it is fiction when I'm writing.

But like, you know, a lot of it is coming from like my upbringing and how I grew up as well. I think that's true, right? Like so many stories, they might not be literally true. but they're like meta true in the sense that it's the lived experience of so many people that it is almost like a true story because it's so consistent across a population. Yeah. And there's so many hitting messages and that's what I love about picture books. Children read through illustrations and yeah. I love that. One of the other pieces that you had already just mentioned, but I'm curious,

could you flesh out the thought more? You didn't come at these books with anger first or division first or frustration first. You led with like beauty, with food, with family. And how much was that intentional or informed by what you already knew? And why do you think that's so important? You know, when being in the writing industry now, I started off self-published and I originally, you know, wrote a book and I wanted to write about fried bread and teaching. And I submitted it to so many publishers and they all kind of said like no way this isn't going to do well same thing with ulican moon like no way you know it's it's not going to do well so i went to so many publishers and then it was really lucy i feel like who brought the illustrations to life and then everyone was like

wow like this is this is very beautiful so in the western world it is very linear and so everything is so for example even in the language but there's always like a beginning middle and end everything kind of ends and that's what happens when you write a story and when you write a story there has to be a problem and then that's what the publishing industry is kind of used to so when writing indigenous picture books and when we naturally think about the problem right now I think that our brains would naturally go to the recent history like what's really like really like what's really traumatic for us right now. And for me, I just know that when I see a really traumatic story or when I see something painful, I'm like, okay, that's why. You know, like, that's maybe why

that happened in my life or the way I grew up. So it was very much like I want to write a picture book that picture books, I guess, that celebrate the beauty and that children can see themselves represented and celebrate all aspects of their culture and be proud and not how to, have this this linear, more of this, this circular, continuous of like, okay, it doesn't have to fit the Western system. But I'm going to keep on trying until I get there. Beautiful. Yes, I have a copy of it right here. And you're right, the illustrations really pull your eyes in. And it's just a beautiful book to have on your, on your counter, in your house. Like, it's just a very warm and inviting book. Food is.

a huge piece of the story. And I'm just curious, how did that come about? And why was it missing from so many other books? I'm just reflecting on the fact that that is something unique that you bring to your writing that I don't see. And I've interviewed quite a few authors. And food isn't often a staple of the story in the same way that it is for yours. You know, I actually think about that all the time.

And I think it's just because I'm a foodie. I love food so much. And, you know, when you live in your own world, if you might have like an intense interest for politics or for indigenous like teacher, you're very much like, oh, like everyone is kind of like into this. And I'm like, oh, what the heck? Like we're not all writing about food. So I think it's just the way that I grew up. Indigenous peoples, we have a unique relationship as well with Chinese people. So we're always, you know, the China Lily soy sauce or in restaurants.

And that's just, it's very much comfort for me. And yeah, so it was just natural to write about food because that's my love language. That's how I connect. And yeah, I think that's what it is. I like it because it's grounding in the reality of so many indigenous people, to your point. Like, I know a lot of people who love soy sauce and, like, those fried bread. and hamburger soup. Like all of these things are so consistent,

yet don't often get focused on because, and I'd be curious as to your perspective on this, sometimes I think we get lost in what the culture was 3,000 years ago, that like there's a fear to honor what the culture is today because that isn't what it was 3,000 years ago. And I'm wondering, how do you strike that balance between what is today, the culture, versus what was and finding that balance? Yeah, that's an interesting question because I have been thinking about that lately. And when I think it's because we were often removed from our culture and because that was taken to us. So I do feel like there's this urgency to kind of go back to those old ways. But you're right. Like we, we are different. And it would be interesting to see where it would be if we weren't affected by colonization because we would have, you know, progress.

in some sort of way. So yeah, I find that for me, the reason why I do focus on contemporary as well is I grew up urban, you know, close like in Le Hain, but I have moved away. And I do think that I have a responsibility only to tell my stories and some stories, you know, cannot be told without permission. And so I feel like the real storytellers, the the ones that are growing up in community. It's, it's there, those are their stories, you know, to kind of tell. And so I, that's my way of kind of honoring that like, hey, this is my story. It's very much more contemporary, indigenous, more urban. And that also gives the space for other urban indigenous children as well. But yeah, I think that's what I'm, that's what I'm kind of doing. If we were to kind of go

dive deeper into that. A lot of the listeners of this show follow politics pretty closely. and are used to hearing the contemporary politics of indigenous issues, reconciliation, where we're going. And so I'd be curious, if they were to pick up this book, what do you hope that they would take away from Ulican Moon or hamburger soup? Yeah. You know, it's not just for children. And that's the thing is there's so much more history that you can dive into each page, whether that's how we were affected.

by climate change, by politics. So there's just so many things. Like there's just so many little hidden messages. Like here, there's that like Chinese bowl that we kind of grew up with. And we kind of put a little bit of indigenous art around it. So yeah, that's what I would just want is just you can dive so much deeper into these books rather than just like hamburger soup. Like there's just so many different layers.

of other teachings. On that point, in hamburger soup, one of the most unique aspects is it shows the process of the culture being passed on, which I don't know if we always sit with because we get so lost in this is the culture, or that is the culture, or what we think is indigenous culture. And I think for a lot of my life and going to law school, the focus was on writing down the culture. So like the example I often use is almost everybody in the West knows why Shakespeare matters,

but don't know what he said that mattered. Like we all agree he's an influential writer, but we don't know what he said that was important or why his writing was so important. Because we were just able to absorb some of those pieces and just assume that there's importance to it. But they don't know why. Like if you ask the average person, What did Shakespeare do that mattered in his writing? Most people I don't think could answer that question.

What's unique about indigenous culture is that it was an oral tradition that was passed on through conversations. And so if something didn't land, if I gave you a teaching that you didn't understand, we would just talk it through and find a way to make it land. And I really liked that about hamburger soup because it reminds us that the culture is passed on, but it's often the best way it can be passed on is through conversation. through sharing, through mutual understanding. And I'm just, can you reflect on how you tied that into the book and how you took that in your own life? Yeah.

So I'll use an example of my PhD framework that kind of just came to me a couple of weeks ago. I'm just kind of reading up here. So the way, I was trying to figure out, like, how to organize these thoughts or like, what am I doing here? or where am I going? And the way that I look at picture books or engage, read, write, or teach, I think that there's three steps. And it comes from my crest. And so the first one would be the frog lens. So I'm from the Genada Frog and Raven clan. And we come from the house, Wilps Achduilogadu. And in our clan, we have a subcrest. So it's Frog, Raven. And then all my regalia, there's a human and it's it's really cool because when you look down, I see myself as the frog and raven.

But when other people look at it, it actually looks like more of a human. And so it's the way that you look at it. So the way I was able to organize these thoughts is through frog, it's more about like pre-contact. Like what lives in this story before colonization, before pre-contact, before everything. And so what I'm really wanting for readers or teachers or adults to really think about, is what kind of lived in this and lived in this story before this, before these turns into words, before this, you know, turned into a hardcover. And when we think about our artwork and pictographs and when we would put our art on totem poles, that in itself told, could tell like hundreds and hundreds of stories for thousands and thousands of years. And so that's what's so different about

indigenous picture books is with other picture books, you know, there's illustrations and they're beautiful. But with indigenous picture books, these just come down to like, especially the linework, like thousands of years of passed down knowledge. And so when we're thinking about often like paying our artists too at a respectful amount, I often think about that because I do think that indigenous illustrators should be, you know, paid more. And, um, and because children read through illustrations and we, we do all, often read through illustrations as well, that I love when, um, we're kind of putting, sometimes what we're doing is we're putting the illustrators first and, uh, holding them up for that. And then when I think about reading through the lens of the

frog, I think of it as like the disruption, the colonization, the wise, but the foolish. And so you're kind of looking at it through the lens of Raven now and you're thinking like, okay, well, what changed here? Well, first off, the fun thing that I think is just, just this book in general. You think about we didn't actually have to tear down thousands and thousands and thousands of trees to make a book. we we had them on our art. They just, they stayed there in our totem poles on pictographs for thousands of years. And now, you know, we think about like the process of just making a picture book and the words that have to go through here.

Whereas indigenous peoples, we're really, we're really good at critically thinking. We kind of knew everything just told a story. And sometimes when I think of myself as a raven and I don't like sometimes being in this world. I'm like, oh, you know, this is very colonial. I just think of myself as a shape shifter. Sometimes you have to shape shift into the colonial setting to benefit your people. And I often tell people that just, just shape shift. You might not like it. And sometimes like you might not, you're like, hey, this isn't like, you're just like, you're just to kind of meet their expectations and then you bring it back to your people. And then the third is the human. And that's looking at the lens of who we are.

are now as humans and our responsibility. So if I look through all three lens, not linear, but in a circular, you're not going to go and we think about what our responsibility is now. So acknowledging the artwork, you know, acknowledging that this is, this is something living. This is something that's changed. This is a lot of history. Yeah, that's kind of, that's how I kind of approach it now. in one of your books you share a lot of the language and what I like about that is or I guess what I run into a lot is a lot of pushback towards our language right now I don't know if you heard about the new naming of one of the bridges but there was a lot of negativity because I think Quatman had put forward a name and so it says it across the bridge now and some people were upset because they can't pronounce the language and when they see Squamish or

when they're driving through, they can't say the word. And so they get frustrated seeing that and they go, that's not me, that's not who I am. And I think that misses so much of the most interesting part of the conversation because one of the interesting pieces about languages is how you take complex ideas and size them down into shorter, more thoughtful words. Like in law school, I learned about Latin and how they take these big ideas and squeeze them into seven characters.

and how you'd break that down. And so I think sometimes we miss that. In Richmond, you have a lot of Chinese language because there's a lot of Chinese people there. In Abbotsford, we see a lot of Hindu languages and Indian languages, and that's reflective of those people and make them feel seen and valued and part of society and represented in a good way. And so I'd be interested to know what is it like to share that with young ones, but also what's interesting about the language from your perspective that people might not realize?

Yeah, so it's really important to bring our language back and revitalize it. And something that from my perspective is I want, you know, also young readers to know this or adults is I am very much also a learner. And I heard something interesting about intergenerational trauma. And we think about when we're when we're also saying our language, you know, sometimes I feel like this. imposter syndrome or I feel a little bit uncomfortable. And we're like, well, why? Well, if we think about our ancestors, parents, grandparents, they were literally beaten and basically just tortured for speaking their language. And so when we think about that intergenerational trauma and that how that affects us now, well, of course, we're scared to speak our language and to say words and it is uncomfortable. So when

I'm incorporating language into my book, I'm very much coming from a place of a learner and someone who doesn't know my language very much. I've also been affected, you know, in that way. And I've made mistakes, too, where I've, you know, connected with elders or recently. And so if you think about it from maybe the Ravenlands, you know, wise, but sometimes foolish, that there's protocol in our nation now to connect. with language and culture with our lives and government. And so now I'm going through this process of going back with the language and having language and culture director Esther Stedems kind of revise it in a very gentle way. They were like, yeah, like they're, you know, but every, every nation and host might have a different dialect. And so we want to make sure that everything is correct. And there's certain underlines there. And so, yeah, that's kind of where I'm coming from. I'm also. very much a learner and learning throughout the process as well. Is there something about the NISCA language that would be good for people to know that is

unique to it in comparison to something like English? Yeah. Growing up and hearing, you know, a bit of our NISCA language is sometimes it feels like it's like in the back of your throat. And I might even be pronouncing this differently, but it's, they say, that you have to kind of grow up really young to get it right. So like I can't like I'm a chatterbox. So that's called like a scabach.

And it's like kind of in the back through throat. So yeah, that's that's the one thing. Interesting. The other piece that I was curious about, your sister, Kelsey Fitzgerald, illustrated hamburger soup. And I'm just wondering what did it mean to you to have a story about family working together and then be able to honor it by actually having that illustration come to life. It's just so nice. You know, I have all these crazy ideas and I, you know, I'm kind of like,

hey, let's do this. And so it's so awesome when I have sisters that are, they're artists, but I very much think like, it's a lot of work. And they're like, okay, this is, this is, this is a lot. But I could just see like how much she liked it and kind of having her style and kind of contemporary. but she actually hand drew everything first and then it goes through vectorization because she didn't have procre or an iPad at the time and yeah she was pregnant and she actually gave birth to her first baby and his name is Simgun and something interesting is his name is spelled S M-A-Postrophe G-U-N Sim-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-N and then we actually changed Sim Gunn's name. Different ways of spelling and this is still correct is we spelled it this

way also for learners to, if they're like phonics, just to kind of sound it out when reading as well. So yeah, that's a fun fact. But yeah, it's awesome and I love working with my sister. What is it like the differences between working with Lucy and your sister? The illustrations are fairly different. Is there, what do you take away from it as? a writer when you see your work brought to life in artwork? Yeah, Lucy is also a sister, like first cousin, but we say sisters. So, you know, the difference between the two is, I would say Lucy adds like a little bit more of like linework and like vibrant like kind of colors. And Kelsey growing up was really good at sketches.

like human sketches and those sorts of things. Um, but yeah, it's a little bit more. It's, it's just, it's different, but, um, but yeah. And also Kelsey's, uh, part, uh, Haida. So we have different dads and she's Haida. And so you can kind of see like earrings here. Like she kind of, she kind of adds that in. And, um, yeah, so I would say that's, I don't know there. I don't know. I don't, it's just, it's so exciting, you know, having it being brought to life. But picture books take such a long time. So in the process, it can be like two years. So when it comes to life for everyone else, I'm like, oh gosh, like, I would have changed this or my writing or, you know, when you see work that it takes

a while for it to get, you know, kind of brought to life. But yeah, that's, that's basically it. You'd mentioned from the outset of our conversation that you see a lot of focus on the trauma and yours is, I think, more inviting to people, more warm and caring and the more gentle parts of the culture. And I would just be interested to know how intentional was that as you were working on these? Is that just your kind of style? Because for me, I thought it was important to speak with you because I do see such division taking place right now on so many issues, whether it's USA and Canada, whether it's, even with the NDP just watching the federal and the provincial, they're fighting. And I'd just be interested to know, like, do you just know that you're a bridge builder?

Is that how you like to approach the work? Or was that just these projects? Yeah, I think it just comes down to personality. And before going into education, I love history. Like, history is like, I love studying history. And so that is kind of how I weave it in there. I would say, let me just think about this, how I did, you know, how I kind of approach this. It's so, it's so difficult. You know, my original PhD research question going into UVVIC was I wanted to research if we had more trauma-centered narratives for children versus positive. And I was getting a little bit more, I was like obsessive about it and I was wanting to kind of figure out if there was an imbalance or if there wasn't an imbalance, but the ones that are getting picked up by big publishers were publishers actually possibly maybe even subconsciously like publishing more of these trauma centered narratives.

And these are the ones that have more money. They're getting published and just seeing them in libraries and books across Canada. So I, when I was looking into this, it was very much a self-centered question and very much rooted in only what I wanted. And through that, you know, Sean Wilson says something really interesting. He says, you have to be careful what you research because it can be catastrophic. Because if you put energy into something negative, it can be negative. And that's what started to kind of happen. Some weird stuff was happening throughout the research.

And I was thinking like, what is going on? And I didn't even realize. I said, ironically, I'm trying to figure out if this is negative. But I said, the, none of this really benefits too much. And it was starting to become negative in myself. And then that was the shift of like, okay, you know what? Like it actually doesn't matter. You don't have to create some groundbreaking knowledge or, you know, it's what does your nation need? What do the children need? How is this going to be brought back in collaboration? So then, recently it just kind of shifted to more of the study being, well, what if the study needs to be a bit about me and how I need to change? And, you know, we can apply for grants and go back to the community and just, you know, kind of work work there. So, so yeah, I think about that a lot. It is a little bit of still like an interest. I'm curious about, but I don't want to focus on it too much. All I know is that like children deserve positive narratives as well. And I'm also thinking about it from a different lens. When I do see more of the trauma-centered narratives, I do often see that they were made from love and good intention and good, and there's still

good teachings there. But I think we just need better tools on how to teach them. With all of that in mind, you're working with Harbor Publishing. I'd just be interested to know how was that decision made? How did you two connect? And how is that relationship been? Yeah. So when I was self-published, I actually would go to like bookstore to bookstore here in Victoria and like sell my, it was called Sisters Learned Traditional Foods book, went to Monroe's and they were like, hey, you should get this published. I'm like, I've tried. So they asked for a copy and they had some connections and they had sent it to a friend, I think in like the Okanagan somewhere. And then within, I think, a couple weeks, we had a bunch of offers, which was really exciting.

It was kind of overwhelming because I didn't know what a contract was or just trying to figure all this out, right? Like, oh, okay. Like, what's going on here? And Harbor was one of the first ones that got back. And I'm actually still so grateful that we went with Harbor because, of just that relationship in BC and I yeah, I just really like working with them. And so now, you know, you have different homes for your book and it's not necessarily because like that publisher might not have liked that book. It's just, it just fits their house like a little

bit differently. So with hamburger soup, yeah, it was just kind of like last minute. I sent them the manuscript and they loved it, which I'm really grateful for. And, And yeah, that's pretty much it. And I have an agent now. And so she takes more of the manuscripts and then we'll send. But I am very grateful for Harper and I love working with them. Fantastic. What do you hope indigenous children take away from your books?

You know, I just want them to see themselves represented, to feel safe, to read through illustrations. And I just want them to inspire them, not necessarily to write, but to find whatever is creative. I struggled quite a bit academically. And so I often talk about that with children that reading and writing was really hard for me. And so that, like, you can go to school if you want, you know, you can write a story. But don't worry about the grammar and the writing and all that stuff. That can come, you know, that can come later. But that's what I want children to really take away is that we're here and we were very underrepresented in children's literature, I think making up one to two percent in all North America.

And we've increased, I think, by 500 percent since the TRC. We are still fairly underrepresented in the whole market. But who we are is we're storytellers. you know, and if you don't write a book, it doesn't, that, if you're self-published, you're very much a storyteller. You're very much, you know, a writer. That's who you are. And so that's what I want children to know as well, is that if, if that's something that you want to do or write or draw, just, just go for it. What do you hope non-Indigenous children take away from your books? Yeah, I really want them to also just learn and to learn like the true history.

And also I want them to just kind of look at the illustrations, you know, through the frog raven and the humidus just really kind of getting comfortable and appreciating the beauty and how different we all are. and it's okay to make, you know, it's okay to ask questions. And if you are sounding out the language, it's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to ask questions, especially even for non-Indigenous teachers thinking like, hey, should I teach this? Like, absolutely. It's out in the world, you know, and you don't have to feel scared or, you know, we're here. And we're all kind of in this together.

because reconciliation takes all of us, not just on one side. When all the politics quiets down, what is the deeper truth you hope people take away from your work about indigenous culture, family, and the kind of country we want to be? I would say that much of this right now in politics, I often see that it comes down to money. and control and wanting to just hold on to like, hey, like, you know, we've moved forward in the past, but it's just, it's okay to move. It's okay for us to admit that we're wrong. And so what I would want is just to have more voices be heard and respected and, especially in schools when we're going into September, often children are just learning possibly who they are or about indigenous peoples in September.

And we're starting off the year with Orange Shirt Day, which is very much needed. But I often think that in October, November, December, January, February March, you know, all the way through, we need to be teaching about Indigenous beauty as well. And when we're just beginning with September, with just orange shirt day, I often think about the first time people might be learning about them as indigenous peoples or other children learning about indigenous peoples for the first time. Broadly, what do you think indigenous stories, languages, and ways of seeing still have to teach the rest of us? to be I think kind, respectful to really look after our elders. Like you said at the beginning, I often think about old folks' homes. And, you know, I know people are trying their best, but I often think about how we have to learn from our elders.

And yeah, so that's what I think. I often think, too, that, you know, there just needs to. to be more chances. We don't necessarily need these, you know, beginning, middle end with the problem and, you know, all of this stuff. I think that anything can be brought to life with good illustrations and good heart. And yeah. How can people connect with you?

Where can they find your books? Yeah. So you can connect with me on my website. It's www. Just my name, Samantha Bannon.com. I have lesson plans on my website. There's a little bit more information about me. You can find most books just like in any bookstore, I think, online.

And yeah. Thank you, Samantha, for being willing to do this. I showed these to my mother, and she read both of them cover to cover and was just very moved and reflective of who she is in a lot of ways. And I think stories do, they can divide us or they can bring us together. And as I continue to try and work through some of these complex issues, it's nice to see people like yourself trying to bring people back together and to share stories.

Because I think the beauty of a lot of your writing is lots of people have grandmothers, right, who aren't indigenous, who share those experiences. And at the core, I think so many people, they look up to their grandparents with admiration. And how they treat them in the later life in the West, I don't think is always great. but a lot of people do intrinsically know they need to respect their elders and that food is the best way to connect. And I think you made it so,

and this is no disrespect, but you made it really simple, that that's really what living comes down to. We can get so lost in the complexities of the world, but there is a simpleness to life that you can forget about and you can run from and you can make life really complicated. But having a good meal with a family member,

listening to their stories and what they overcame, learning how to cook with them, learning how they made that. Like, I think that's, that's all really important to how we connect ourselves, not just as a community, but to our ancestors and to the people who came before us. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. It was an honor to be here. And, yeah, I love all the good work that you're doing.

And, yeah, it's just been such a pleasure to spend some time with you today. Beautiful. Ulican Moon and hamburger soup are available online. I highly recommend them. I just think they're beautiful and the stories and just how you put the narrative together. I just think is fantastic. So thank you so much for being willing to join us.

Okay, thank you.