Nuanced. - 257. Kennedy Stewart: Did China Try to Remove Him as Vancouver Mayor?

Episode Date: August 6, 2026

Kennedy Stewart joins to discuss Chinese foreign interference, Mark Carney, Pierre Poilievre, the NDP, Vancouver housing, policing, and democracy. The former Vancouver mayor and NDP MP explains his CSIS briefing, why party nominations are vulnerable, what Avi Lewis must fix, and whether he could return to politics with host Aaron Pete.Send us Fan MailSupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Did the Chinese government try to remove you as mayor, in your opinion? Yeah, I mean, there was a whole bunch of people trying to get rid of me as mayor. That was all this activity that was happening on the ground, which if you piece it together, it was at least somewhat coordinated by the consulate out here. Are party nominations the weakest link in Canadian democracy? My wife, that's her specialty. Like, that's what she's written books on it and stuff. Like, it's, she calls it the secret garden of politics.

And it totally is. Like, when you get in nominations, they are, you know, Loads of people showing up, fake membership. So you get all this kind of stuff. All parties experience it. Is Mark Carney legitimately attracting people from other parties or building a majority that voters did not give him in your opinion? Because I don't think Carney's really a Democrat. I think he's a banker.

You've said CIS officials approached you before Vancouver's 2022 election. What exactly did they tell you? Kennedy Stewart, thank you so much for being willing to join us today. I'm very excited to speak with you. Would you mind briefly introducing yourself? Yeah, hey, Eric. My name is Kennedy Stewart, and I come to you today from the lands of the Muscoons, Squamination, Slaviltoth people. I am an academic now where I teach at the School of Public Policy at Simon Fraser University.

But prior to that, I was a member of parliament for seven years, and then mayor of Vancouver from 2018 to 2022. And in Parliament, I was a member of the NDP caucus. I'm excited to talk to you about all of that. I do want to start, though, at the beginning, because I think you have a very unique upbringing. And I'd really like to focus there because I think it will root the rest of the conversation. You've described your family losing its home and falling from a comfortable life into rural poverty. And I'm wondering, is that how you got introduced into politics?

how does that impact how you think today? Thanks for asking. I just actually came back from visiting my mom in Nova Scotia. So I grew up in rural Nova Scotia down in the Annapolis Valley, most of the time in Wolfhill, but also on the South Mountain, which if you're from there, you know that it's got a bit of a reputation. Yeah, for up until I was about age of 12, I was in a kind of a regular middle class family. my dad was a management consultant and my mom was a stay-at-home mom.

But in the late 70s, Canada was going through some pretty tough economic times, and my dad lost his job and we went bankrupt, lost our house, all our possessions, and we had to move out from Willfield to the South Mountain in a little hunting cabin that my grandfather had built by hand and lived there for about five years. It was unwinterized. And in that part of the Maritimes during that time period, there was a lot of entrenched for rural poverty. So, you know, every day we would get up in quarter after six, get on the bus, take us two hours to get to get the junior high school and high school. And then on those bus rides, you're surrounded with kids that have had all kinds of abuse, all kinds of effects of.

poverty. And so it really, you know, I went from the rich boyle kid who took tennis lessons to trying to survive in this, in this environment. And it really shaped who I am, gave me kind of internal sense of justice. And, you know, also kind of set me on my path because I had to figure a way out of this. My family had kind of blown up a bit. My dad was present at sometimes, not present others had kind of developed alcoholism, and so that was all pretty tough. I turned to music. So the one thing I could do at that point was I was a bass player, and I joined a bunch of country rock bands, and I was 15 and started playing bars all around the Maritines, which I don't think was legal

at that point. But that did eventually get me to Vancouver. I moved to Vancouver in the late 80s as a musician. How do you think that shaped your thinking as you started to look at politics and all of those other things? Like, how does that carry forward? And then I would, my follow up will be around. That seems to be happening yet again now. We're not in an official recession.

But we have all the hallmarks of people starting to not be able to make ends meet and falling behind. But how did that shape your thinking on politics and your role within that? Well, from about, you know, from the bankruptcy when I was 12 to around, I would say in my early 20s, it was basically survival mode, right? I had to figure out really, you know, a lot of times my folks were absent. And so I had to look after my brother and sister. You know, my mom was trying the best she could, but she was really struggling with, you know, the circumstances. And so, you know, I had an early admittance to university. when I was 17, so finished my degree.

And then, but at that point in Nova Scotia, the unemployment rate in my area was 20%, so there was no jobs. And so me and my friend, we got one-way tickets to Vancouver, 100 bucks in our pocket and landed out here. Very happy to have done that because we were able to land jobs. I worked at Radio Shack for my first job as the salesperson, and then ended up running a printing press for three years. so there's opportunity here.

But how it now that I, so I didn't really have much political awareness at that point because I was just surviving like lots of people are doing right now. Like just how do I pay my rent? At one point there are five of us living in a one bedroom. You know, you got to rotate, who got the couch,

who gets to sleep on the floor. But looking back now, it really shaped how I've taken my political roles. You know, when I was mayor, I became kind of quite obsessed to making sure folks I could try to help as many families as I could not to go through what I and my family went through and so many people around me in Nova Scotia went through.

So that's why I really focused on, for example, building affordable rental housing in the city. And it also, you know, it made the NDP, the party for me was recruited by Jack Leighton. And then, you know, trying to have a social conscience and a large, you know, give it a bigger voice in parliament. what has driven everything I do. And even when I work with my students now, I'm always thinking about, well, how can I get you jobs? How can I make sure that you get out and you're okay? Maybe it's slightly traumatic, like how I kind of have internalized these things. But I do realize how bad it can be for your family if you have to go through something as tough as that. I want to linger on this for a second, And just because I do think so many people are falling behind and of no fault of their own.

And I came from a background where my mom had a disability. I've never met my father. And so we lived in downtown Chilliwack in poverty, having the same meal night after night after night, not always having food until the end of the month. My mom's sliding food onto my plate in order to make sure that I was full as a kid. And I think that shaped me in a lot of ways. In one way, just the amount of responsibility I feel like I need to take on. Because as a kid, I started going, okay, if you buy toilet paper, you buy the 12 pack, it's not a bad deal. If you buy the 36 pack, you save some money and then you can do other things with the leftover savings.

It costs more on the upfront, but then you're buying in bulk or supply, so you're saving a bit of money on that front. And so I just carried a lot of that mentality around trying to, budget and take on responsibility, fill in gaps where needed. And I do notice that that's one of my vices is trying to take on, like I'm chief of my community. I run a podcast where I'm trying to address complex issues. And I try and support other nations in trying to strive towards supporting their members in rising out of poverty. And when people ask like, how do you think about like reconciliation and stuff? I always go back to poverty because that you can't participate in the economy. You can't create a business. If you're so far behind, you can't put food in your

mouth. And so how did that shape you're thinking about your role as a politician and seeing politics as the space to enact change to support people? Yeah, I mean, I think we have a similar approach. Your earlier seem a bit rough too, and it does kind of drive you to achieve. Like, I guess what they say is that it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger. And so a lot, I mean, my brother and sister also kind of adopted the same thing. So they've achieved a lot. But you we were surrounded on people who didn't, right? You know, lots, in my high school, we'd have girls that were kind of 14, 15, that were having kids at that point.

You have folks that had failed multiple grades and, you know, all that kind of stuff you're surrounded with. And you just think, well, if there were more supports there, these folks could also have thriving lives. And it's a weird philosophy that I have, but, you know, I'm not a religious person, but I kind of think about every single person is their own universe. Like, like within your head. with all the people that you have around you,

and every life is worth the same as every other life. And I really get upset when, I mean, you know, straight up racism with when some people say some folks are biologically inferior to others, right? That is this totally unacceptable. And I really get upset when I hear that, and you get that with race, you get it with gender, you get it with all kinds of stuff.

And I do think that it's the job of the government and to kind of protect as many of these universes because they're the most precious thing we have. And, you know, just the privilege, I guess the one thing I didn't realize growing up was how privileged I was, right? Because you're busy surviving and you're going through these things.

But I remember when I was, I went to UBC for a year, and the class was full, and I went to the prof and I said, well, I'd like to get admitted to this class. And the prof said, oh, Stuart, that's a good Scottish name. We'll let you win. And I think, like, I didn't, quite get what was going on there, but now I really look back and think, like, what I went through was tough, but I had the privilege of being a straight white male in a culture that's dominated

by that. And so it took me quite a while to kind of get over myself a little bit and then think, well, okay, how can I use this privilege that I have to kind of try to help as much as I can? And, you know, and you kind of fail along the way, right? Like, I have a, you know, you were mentioning reconciliation, I've got a good friend who's a former Slaveltooth chief, chief lead of George Wilson, who very kind to kind of lead me through, you know, talking about reconciliation. And it always sticks with me that she says, you have to remember that we did nothing wrong. And I think, oh, well, how can you repair a relationship or how can you move ahead with a relationship if you and your ancestors and the colonial powers are the ones that kind of inflicted the damage. You can't expect

your partner to, or your potential partner to kind of make a lot of suggestions. You have to make a lot of offers and hope they're accepted. And that really kind of guided my approach, not just to, say, reconciliation efforts, but also kind of all forms of trying to help people live better lives. is like make offers first and then see if they're, except, you know, inform yourself as much as you can, but don't put all the pressure on the person that, that perhaps needs to improve things to come up with all the answers. You know, don't be afraid to fail when you're trying to make things better.

So I think that's kind of, you know, every life is sacred, everybody's intrinsically equal. The world is not a fair place, you know. There's people that have privileged, people who are not privileged, people who are not privileged just by luck. And so the systems that we have in place have to kind of balance that out. How did you develop your political perspective? Like, as you've described, the NDP, they obviously, like when you're a part of that,

you have a certain ideological viewpoint. And at times when people go through what you went through, sometimes they get very conservative. You pulled yourself up by the bootstraps. And so those people will look back at people who are in similar circumstances and go, you need to pull up your bootstraps. Other people go, I went through this. I don't want other people to ever go through this. And so those develop over time.

My perspective is very much that like both ideologies have a role to play. And the reason that we have the system we do is so you have a portion of people who represent a more liberal left-leaning perspective. And you have like a conservative voice. And they hash out their ideas and bring those political perspectives. So hopefully we end up with something that's well-rounded in terms of its. in terms of its approach, how did you end up coming to your political philosophy? You know, like I said, after I kind of, I started at, you know, university was a great place for me. When I did my PhD at the London School of Economics, and I was exposed to some really good thinkers.

I'm not a political philosopher, but I like to hang around political philosophers. and I became really kind of attached to the idea of justice's fairness. And fairness is not necessarily about the outcomes, but it's the process by which you make decisions. So as long as you're like, and my own work is that if somebody's permanently excluded from the decision-making process or loses time after time after time again, then the process isn't fair.

And so the outcomes can never be fair. So I really focus on procedural fairness, like making sure that how you make, decisions. So, for example, when women didn't have the vote, right? You know, you couldn't say that there's going to be justice for women because they weren't allowed to vote or run for office. Same with indigenous folks up until the 60s. Many immigrants, like there's old city of Vancouver, the legislation in the city of Vancouver actually names people that cannot vote or stand for office, like different groups of people. So if you don't have procedural fairness, you can't have justice

and your society, and we don't. There's so many procedures. I mention my own privilege at university, you know, oh, Stuart's the good Scottish last name, you're going to get in. Procedurally, that's not fair. I should have just been on the list like everybody else and probably not get into that course.

My grades are terrible too. So I think thinking about how we make decisions, making sure that they're fairly conducted is probably the best thing we can do. I would say pulling myself up on my boot bootstraps, I don't really kind of, like, I would never get into my master's programs if there weren't student loans. Those are government programs. You know, I'd been on employment insurance three times when I'd lost jobs. So that's not pulling myself up by the bootstraps. That is

government programs that are helping me. I was quite ill as a kid. And so I was hospitalized a bunch of times. You know, the healthcare system, you know, I probably would have died if I hadn't had it. I don't think I could afford, you know, just to pay for the service like they have to do in the U.S. So I really think pulling yourself up by the bootstraps, I did have that for a long time. I thought like, oh, I've done this. But then when you look at all the support that's around you and maybe folks that say kind words or help you along your way or mentors, you think, I really didn't do this by myself. I really, it really, I relied on my community to kind of get me there. So I disagree with you a little on that. I do think, you know, there's my own privilege that's

baked in that I didn't recognize, but there's also the systems that we have in place in Canada that are, I do help a lot of us who, you know, don't start at the top kind of, you know, do well. That's interesting because I actually, yeah, I'll, I'll push back on you a little bit because pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, I don't think anybody thinks that that's a result of having no social safety net. But I think the impetus when you did get laid off or when those things did happen, you got back up. You started pursuing again. There are people who get, like, go from a job and stay on EI, then start using drugs, then go on social assistance, then become homeless. And like, there's a direction. You leaned into the resources and programs. And,

But I guess the other area I'll push back on is like I understand this impetus towards privilege. But I mean, I have immense privilege. When people hear that I'm a First Nations chief, they want to interview me. They want to speak with me. They want to understand what my worldview is. So things have changed quite a bit. And I guess my fear is that you're not, I think, giving yourself the credit you're due because there's a lot of work that goes into those things. There's a lot of guilt and pity that you can take on.

And when you choose to say, no, no, no, no, no, I'm going to proceed and I'm going to push forward. I'm going to get back up. I'm going to try again. I'm going to do this. That's pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. And that's to be commended. And the fact that you had those, I think everybody, even conservatives, even though they get this criticism a lot, I do think want some sort of social safety net. Now, the debate is how big, how large, how expansive. Can we have a giant safety net that supports 20% of people? Those are the kind of debates I think we end up in. But I think you did pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You did take the challenges you saw and didn't hate your family, hate your parents, get resentful,

get bitter, and fall down a rabbit hole where you were not a productive member of society. And I think that's to be complimented and to be upheld because that's the only way we proceed. I guess, I mean, but I'm thinking about each person as their own universe. I mean, I referred to, you know, these young girls that would, you know, have a kid when they were 15, often. that's through an abusive situation where that happens. Geez, I mean, that's pretty tough. At the time, there was a conservative government in Nova Scotia, and they decided they were going to cut welfare for these women.

They had a policy in place that if you were an unwed mother, you would not be able to receive welfare. This was something that, so that is removing a social safety net, and I think taking that bootstraps thing to an extreme, because you can imagine what is done, right? So, I mean, I do agree that, you know, you can build incentives in the different programs and you can incentivize and disincentitize people,

but you also have to meet people where they are. And so if you're, you know, I came from middle class, dropped down for a while and they've moved back up, you know, lots of help with the social safety net and other programs. But, man, the young women that was going to, you know, junior high school with,

that's, uh, that's a tough one. Like, you've got a kid at 15, 16, it's already probably come out of an abusive situation. Like,

you're, if you don't, uh, they are pulling themselves up by the bootstuffs because they're, you know, their challenges would be to raise their kid and to try to, um, you know,

so try to make the best life they can for themselves and, and their children. But, you know, we can do much more to help that situation, which I think benefits, benefits all. I don't like kind of, even though programs are for groups of people, I do think you have to meet each person where they're at and kind of think about what is, how can we contribute as a community to this person's well-being.

So, but I think debate is healthy. And that's one thing I didn't like about, like, I would never call myself a socialist. I used to, I hang out with socialists, but because socialists always have the answer, the state should run everything. But I think, well, that's, I mean, I would annoy people because I would go to meetings and they bring up all these problems and I put up my hand and say, oh, I know what you're going to say. The state should do it. Right. But it's not true. I mean, there's lots of, you know, the state can regulate. There's lots of place for market, you know, like you don't want government to take over all the housing construction, for example. Like, there's lots of market stuff that has to happen there. So I do think you need to be open to different solutions to be prepared to debate them. And I fear in Canada, we're kind of. we're kind of entrenched now where we can't actually look at a problem evaluate and say what's the best way to address it. And that's what I do at the policy school is we, you know, and I think when I was an MP, there was a funny thing where people would say

I was the most popular MP in all parties but my own because I would always talk to the other side. You know, I'd talk to liberals, the conservatives. I'm still, I would say good friends of Michael Chong, for example. We wrote a book together. You know, that's like that surprised people in the NDP who always saw, you know, I came when Harper was there, right? And so the conservatives were the enemy, the NDP was the official opposition. Like there was no way you're always going to win, but you could never see the other side having points, right? And I just, I reject that.

I think if it's a genuine, if people are making genuine appeals or genuine points, then you have an obligation to consider those. If it's just wrote, you know, talking point crap, forget it. But if it's a considered opinion, then you have an obligation. I think whatever position you're in is to think about it. I love what you just did there because I think you just juxtaposed the extremes of the left, which is what you just described, where they get very tribal and they view all of their opinions as correct. And anybody who deviates is betraying the team. But then you also pointed out, I agree with you.

I would land in the same category as you. I think that was an excess of the right if they didn't want to support unwed mothers. I can see their argument, which would be, well, we want to discourage this behavior. We think that that's not going to be productive for society. Like, I can get their philosophical perspective. But to your point, it doesn't really meet people where they're at on the ground. And you can never know the really challenging unique situations of somebody who was abused. And we have community members who are 12 and 13 who have been sexually assaulted.

and we're trying to respond to that in an appropriate way, but that will reshape that child's life for the rest of their life. They'll never forget what they went through. And so you have to meet that person where they're at and walk alongside them. And so I just appreciate that perspective. You have studied political institutions, served in parliament, governed Vancouver. What originally pulled you towards politics and what did holding power teach you that studying maybe missed the mark on? I wasn't really, my parents weren't engaged politically really a little bit where I grew up,

but I remember I took a first year of Polysy class and I could either write a paper or there was an election campaign going on so you could get involved in a campaign. And so I thought, well, I'll get involved in a campaign and I really had no preference for any parties. So actually, I joined an NDP campaign and the NDP had never won in the writing where I was, where the election was being held. And then we went door knocking and all this kind of stuff as part of the assignment. And you could go to conservatives or liberals or whatever. And the guy won. He won by nine votes. And it kind of turned lights on for me that, oh, like, change is possible.

You know, if you get involved. And, you know, I was 17, 18 years old. Then what happened later is that the, it was an NDP member became such a threat to the governing conservatives. They appointed this guy as a judge. and then he left the legislature. So it also taught me that politics is a tricky place. Right? So, I mean, that was very early on.

And then I did study history in my undergrad, which I really enjoyed. I take solace in history. It makes you realize that you're not really that significant in the grand scope things and don't take yourself too seriously. But then I went into political science. from my master's in PhD and just totally loved it because it's all about power. It's all about who has power and what they do with it and how you gain power and what you do with it.

And I love thinking about power. I do it everywhere I go. I look at power dynamics and situations. I can't. I was, you know, even in the university departments, I'm kind of looking at who's on what side and who's controlling the room. I just love that stuff. And being able to put theory to it and is, my wife is also a doctor. Dr. Jeanette Ash, she's at Douglas College. She also is a political scientist, so it's all, all day, all things all day every day, which is just kind of like a dream come true.

Fascinating. Again, I think we disagree mildly that I think because when you look at history, you understand, A, one person can make a difference. Yeah. One person can reshape a whole society's thinking when you think of Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King Jr. or Tommy Douglas. And like these people can reshape things. And so, me, when you look at history, you realize that's the piece, and then you have a duty to try and make things better with the very limited time that you have. Yeah, a challenge, for sure. Take the challenge and push yourself as much as you can. And, you know, it's an aside, but there's a thing called the Book of the Dead, which is in Egypt. And it's basically 200 spells that they wrote on mummies as they were, you know, after they passed.

And this was in place for 1,500 years. this is a practice for burying people that was so think how long that is one so i mean when you think about your own lifespan or even canada's lifespan or you know colonial north america like it's really nothing compared to what's gone on and so so i think try to make the people's lives around you as good as you can you know whether it's students or people in your community and um and you're going to make mistakes you're going to put programs in that are cost too much and you're going to have to roll them back and then you're going to, you know, defund programs that you're going to have to put back in place, you know, and so we've got to be a little more patient as we kind of walk

through this increasingly unstable, I'd say, world. Agreed. I'd love to get into the politics now. When you won the NDP nomination in 2011, and you can correct me if I, if I mistake this, you said the entire riding executive resigned that night because they wanted the other candidate to win. What did that experience teach you about who really controls political parties? Yeah. And actually, the president of the writing, it was unrelated, but actually went to jail for fraud for four years. So there was corruption within the writing executive, which I suspect happens more often than we think. And it needs more oversight by elections Canada.

Like there's some reporting that I think these are places where nefarious. I mean, you think of nominations and how in a state, the one thing I like about the U.S. is they have primaries and they're regulated and everybody plays under the same rules more or less. But man, when parties run things, you get up to all kinds of shenanigans that you shouldn't be getting up to. So, I mean, what did it teach me that politics is a lot harder than I thought it was, you know, that it's kind of a 24-7 type of enterprise. and I mean, I was pretty full of myself. Like, you know, I was a prof and, you know, I thought like, oh, I study politics. I know all this stuff.

I actually ran before in 2004, where I won a nomination, but I lost the election. And, man, I just had such a massive ego. And the guy I was up against the nomination was a bus driver. And I thought, oh, and he almost beat me. Like, I went to my first debate and he totally wiped the floor with me. And I realized, like, I don't have the skills that I think I have. have and I need to get better and better. And I'm still not, I'm a bit of an introvert.

So I find it quite draining to kind of go out and talk to large groups and, and I can do it, but it's not my preferred thing. So, you know, I have to learn that stuff about, about who you are. But it is a pretty ruthless game. But as, as you know, I mean, you're elected too, right? It's, it's, and you're never going to be there that long. So you got to do the best you can while you're there. Absolutely. Are party nominations the weakest link in Canadian democracy?

There's lots of weak links. I think it's bizarre that they've changed all the FOI rules and so now we can't ever see what cabinets do nationally. Like it really is, it's so secret. Canada has the most secrecy around government procedures and basically in the Western world. That's bad. I do think first past the post elections are not good either. I think we could reform those. But the nomination process, that my wife's, that's her specialty. Like, that's what she's written books on it and stuff. Like it's, it is, she calls it the secret garden of politics. And it totally is. Like when you get in nominations, they are, you know, busloads of people showing up, you know, fake memberships.

You get all this kind of stuff. All parties experience it. And I think it's one of the main things that turn people off of politics. Like even if you're involved, you know, involved around the edges in these processes, They're so, you know, they're from the 1800s, right? I mean, we really have to modernize that. We really have to, and I think the only way is to kind of move towards some type of primary system where everybody knows the rules and you have procedural fairness because right now

they're not. Some parties are better than others. Actually, I would say conservative party nominations, at least in the past, I was always impressed with the conservative party, like how they organized themselves. Like, I thought it was a very professionally managed. The liberals are a little less and the NDP not really. not as professionally managed. So, conservative's do some things very well. I mean,

I did spend four years in parliament with Stephen Harper, who my NDP colleagues hate me for saying this, but I actually think he was a genius to be able to bring together those factions, to able to build a, you know, he wasn't a mainstream centrist politician in a time when Canada was like that. And to be able to hold power for four years, like, and the discipline that he, like that was his genius, was his discipline. I still is. I mean, I'm glad he's working with Kearney and others. I didn't agree with any of his policies, but how he managed things was very, very impressive.

On that note, I'd just be curious, did you see the last NDP convention federally? Because it got a lot of news because they had privileged cards and not just that I think that didn't land for a lot of Canadians. Did you see that? And what was your take on that? Well, I mean, you know, I was with. the NDP when they had 103 seats. And I would get up every caucus meeting and talk about getting ready for the next election.

I would say, you know, you got to go contact. But a lot of the debate was in the type of stuff you're talking about. Like, I do agree that privilege and under privilege has to be addressed. But sometimes it goes to the extreme to the point where it alienates everybody, including the people that are so-called, you know, not being treated very well. It's used as a weapon. And now the NDP has five seats. So, you know, I, I was always say to my colleagues, like, if people aren't coming into your store, you can't blame them. You have to blame yourself, right? So something that the NDP is doing and has done for quite some time has not appealed to voters. And I think the great thing about elections is the results are in parliament when you see how many seats you have. And the NDP has to take how they manage their party more seriously.

Now, you need to have good debates at conventions. I mean, you get wackadoo stuff at conservative conventions too, right? You have total. But you need to have a place for people to be able to say those kind of things. And sure, it's going to cause problem for elected officials, but you really need to hear all sides. And if you start shutting it, I mean, you know, if it's straight up racism or sexism, I think every party would, stop that and you should. Like you just can't have a, you know, there's other places. They can go work with Maxine Bernier if they want. But, right? I mean, you, you know, that, that's the kind,

there are very fringe parties for that type of stuff, right or left. But mainstream parties, they have to allow space for debate or else you're, you're never really going to, to come to a conclusion that everybody agrees with. What do you think of Avi Lewis? Oh, I mean, I've, I've known him, you know, on and off. Uh, uh, uh, He's got his work cut out for him. You know, I, and my thought is, I mean, people, when I supported Jugmeet Singh when he came in, and I worked on a transition plan for Jugmeet, like, you know, how to move it. And so I've done a lot of analysis about how money flows through the organization,

you know, how they're restructure. And that went up the window on day one. And you can kind of see the decline kept happening because the NEP just, didn't, you know, they didn't embrace professional kind of management accounting, that type of thing. And I really think Abby Lewis's main challenge will be to professionalize the NDP. I do think it is a good brand. I think Canadians know what the NDP is. I think they know that it's a party that stands up for the little guy and is willing to take on very tough challenges, uh, unpopular positions. I mean, I think about how, geez, I think about my predecessor, Bill Six-A, how we champion trans, and trans rights way, way before anybody was really talking about it and how difficult the task

that is to kind of, you know, that segment of society is, it just really gets, you know, really unfairly treated and to stand up. I mean, that's what the NDP does, right? We've always stood up for groups and, and I think people know that. However, they're a little confused when times are tough as to how we're going to get food on the table. And I think now whether Avi Lewis is the right guy to kind of propose an economic agenda, I'm not sure. But it can't just be no all the time, right? There has to be yes.

So I actually, I'm good friends with Daniel Blakey who works in, you know, he was an MP, but he works a Wob Canoe. And they're thinking about doing a pipeline through, you know, from Alberta to Ontario. and I was, you know, saying, hey, make sure you get refineries built on that, right? Like, if you're going to, I was, I was never against pipelines, even though I was arrested to stop one. I was against the kind of, it just, just shipping Canadian resources out with very little benefit.

I do think, like, I can't understand why Canada doesn't focus on energy security in a real way. Like, why aren't we refining our own oil? Why aren't we getting benefit from that? why aren't we making sure if we're going to use liquid natural gas, why isn't that used domestically? Like, I really don't understand why it's all just about shipping it out and not kind of adding value and using it ourselves.

So, you know, I convinced the concern is to do a committee study on refining in Canada. And it was shocking how, how, like, we used to have refineries, they've all basically disappeared. and now we ship our oil to the U.S., they refined it and sell it back to us, I think, well, why don't we have refineries in Ontario and on the prairies and in British Columbia? Like, what are we thinking? You know, the jobs that would come, the security, I mean, it doesn't make sense to me. So I, but I would think the challenge for Evie Lewis is like, can he pivot to a point where Canadians are nodding their head and saying, that's going to be good for me. You know, that's going to help my family. And, That's what the NDP used to do, right? Layton certainly did it. Tommy Douglas. There's put your own, like, climate change is an important thing, but if it dominates everything, you know, I don't think it's going to sell these days.

Fascinating. You are a difficult person to put into a political camp. How could a foreign government use memberships, nomination contests or leadership races to gain influence without ever changing the result of a general election? Well, my last year as mayor, CES has came to brief me in my office to basically say there's foreign interference in your election. The Globe Mail covered this quite extensively. I saw you have Bob Fife on your podcast. I mean, he was right into this.

And so through that process, you know, I've been involved also in foreign interference. there's all kinds of ways that, you know, a favors, you know, like whether they're, you know, all sign up a bunch of people, they'll come, they'll vote in your nomination contest, you win, and then they come back and say, well, you owe us. It might be that people, maybe it's as little as hire this person into your staff, right? So like you win the nomination, you win an MP and all of a sudden you have this person on your staff that's feeding information back to the foreign government. You see all kinds of privileged emails and stuff.

I mean, it is, so it is the weakest part of our political system is the nomination process. And it's the most vulnerable part. And I think that nobody's really overseeing it. Parties just, you know, they use it to kind of get the people in that they want to get in and keep the people out. Would they have this illusion of democracy? But it's, it's in trouble, like in all parties. And, I mean, one solution is, hey, just appoint the candidates. Like, forget about that local executives matter because the parties don't really think that anymore.

They do parachute people in like this. And that's what they do in other countries. They just select the parties just select the candidates themselves. It's happening here in British Columbia, actually. The elections B.C. no longer does really anything with the local executives. Like, if you want to look at a place where a local executives, The negatives are starting to really collapse and fall by the wayside here in British Columbia is a place. But it does remove a vulnerability to foreign interference if you do kind of take that measure.

Or you can make them better. Following up on that, you've said CIS officials approached you before Vancouver's 2022 election. What exactly did they tell you? It was a weird meeting. Like I had no idea it was coming and it was two officials. One was, I found it eventually was a China expert. They went through kind of stock material on how interference can happen within elections. They quizzed me and my chief of staff an awful lot as to what was going on.

And then they went through a bunch of reports that had been reported publicly, but I didn't know about. That happened before the election and nothing else happened. but then post-election, the Globe of Mail, Bob Fife and Wamsley, who's the editor-in-chief, came to me in Vancouver and said they had been fed wiretaps from the consulate here in Vancouver

in which I was included and there was collusion to get rid of me. This kind of carried out for quite some time, so they were basically supporting Ken Sim and as mayor and going at, you know, wanted me to go. mainly because I was very pro-Taiwan. Like, that's another thing I totally agree with the conservatives with is the pro-Taiwan stance.

And the liberals have been a bit wishy-washy on that one, but I do think that the conservative... To say the least. Yeah. And so that kind, and then I had all kinds of other people, like they told me about, so the Chinese consul during the election, too, had issued this press release saying that I was going to burn and fire or something. trying to alert the local Chinese residents that were kind of pro-Beijing that I was the guide not to vote for. So they were actively interfering all the way through the election, which has covered well in the Globe of Mail and other sources. I did, I thought most of this was over, but then last year I had a team of federal lawyers that came to Vancouver. They entered me for about four hours.

And the good thing about these kind of interviews is that you get as much. back as you as you give. And so all the course of this stuff, I learned that the Chinese government had set up a radio station in Washington State that was brought, you know, so it's outside CRTC rules. And they were basically broadcasting anti-me propaganda through the whole election. So I think this is quite widespread. I have some friends, some academic friends who study this stuff, and this is so widespread. red and in countries all around the all around the world.

And it's happening here in Canada right now. I think CES, our CMP are aware of it. But the government just doesn't really take it that seriously. So that's not good for us. So we need to take that more seriously. And I mean, municipal elections are so vulnerable. Like, it's, there's no, there's hardly any oversight. They're all usually run by the municipalities themselves.

There's very low information and media coverage. it is the perfect place to crank up a funded social media campaign. And you're not, you know, it's hard to track how much that costs. If it's done from outside of Canada, there's no way of stopping it, really. So it's a big problem that I don't think the recent commission has really dealt with. So just to clarify, they contacted you and scheduled a meeting. They walked you through some of this stuff. Is this all super confidential at the time?

or are they saying like, hey, you can let people know because this is a concern that people should be to let people know. I think the reason they came and met with me is they know I have a big mouth and I would go out and talk about it. I really do because I think what I was, what I remember is quite a while ago, but what I remember being told is that they were telling people and no one, they said no one upstairs was listening. So they had fed a lot of this information up and then nobody was really paying attention.

I mean, the Globe Mill kind of covered this in a couple of stories, so everything I've said more or less is public record. And then, sorry, what did you do with the information after you received it? Like, what was your initial reaction to hearing this? Was it stress? Was it fear? Was like what, and then what do you do with that info? Yeah. I mean, I don't know.

I don't know what to do with it. It's like, CESA leaves the office. That I look at my chief of staff is like, what do we do? It's like nothing, right? So we just conducted the election like we would. And I did get the same amount of votes, but the way it shaped up with the, you know, when you have different candidates,

Merrill candidates, it kind of splits the vote differently. So ended up having the same amount of votes as I did before, but the vote split gave the victory to Sim that time. So, you know, that's the way it goes. But, but yeah,

that afterwards I thought it was all over and that it just kept popping up with the Globe of Mail interviews and with these federal lawyers. And so, it's still, I don't think it's resolved itself and I'm sure there's going to be interference in this election too because nothing's been done. Do you have any regrets on that you may have been able to do more

or that you could have done something differently? You mean just on this issue or just in general? Just on this specific issue. I'm just curious, like you look back now, now you've got way more information, you kind of have a broader understanding of the systems in place of the reporting that Robert Fife did,

like now looking back what you've approached it differently? I had some information that I think I should have made public that I didn't. I've subsequently run into other examples of foreign interference that I, that I brought. For example, recently, I was, you know, I'd forgotten. I hadn't told them people this, but there is a member of the BC cabinet that was under investigation for colluding. And I probably should have done more with that.

but I think that's also public now. There was questions asked in the legislature about it, and then nobody did anything. So I think, like, as mayor, it's not, you don't really have any authority or jurisdiction or anything. You really depend on your, your intelligence services and RCMP, Justice Minister to really deal with this stuff. So, uh, I don't know. I keep speaking out.

And every time I do, I get totally killed for it. Like, so I guess the problem, yeah, people, you know. they call me racist they you know I'm not you know like it's it's a government that's interfering not a people right and uh so so like every time it comes up I just say oh man I got to go through two weeks of like people hating on me and then so I mean I'll keep speaking up but um I think it's higher powers that need to really deal with this um just to clarify you said there was something that you wish you had to come forward and said previously was that about the NDP person or was that something else right the BC

cabinet member that was under investigation and I think that I probably should have mentioned that earlier I just you know I was transitioning into academia and stuff and you know being living in a town of 750,000 people after you lose election isn't that much fun you know like for the first couple of weeks you know you get people that are kind of want to get in your face and say like who voted against you but then it's got to become a much nicer place and now that they hate the new guy, like everybody's nice to be. So that's great. And so now I feel like, and with the Chinese interference, the Chinese government interference,

you know, I regularly meet with Taiwan officials. I offer help or I can. But it really is up to elected people now to deal with this. With regards to the cabinet minister, you have not named the person. But I'm wondering, what do you know firsthand and what have you been told? by others. How did you come by this information? Well, you know, I've said it, said it publicly before that when I was interviewed by, you know, by these federal lawyers, I had some early information that this cabinet member had some links to China, but it was

confirmed in these conversations with what these federal lawyers. And so I guess I probably, I did actually, after I left the meeting, I called CIS and I told them about this. They never got back to me. But I'm sure, and I do know there's an active investigation. I'm still going from what I know from the limited details that I have. But so far, nothing has come out. And I do think you saw this too with, you know, the liberal MPs and stuff that were, it takes quite a long time for law enforcement to kind of deal with this stuff.

but I don't think it's good if you have cabinet members that are not loyal to your country. I don't think that's a good thing. Yeah, so I'm curious, why make such a serious allegation and not name the minister? Well, I've already been sued once for defamation, you know, because when I was mayor, it was kind of the rise of Trump and there was a lot of racist stuff going on here in Vancouver and inst amongst the someone of the political parties so I called it out

and then I got sued for defamation and then I had to go through then I triggered an anti-slap anti-slapp kind of pushback and this went through many levels of court I think it was appeal I won each time but if I've lost it probably would

cost me $400,000 personally in fact I won so it didn't cost me that much but I think I've been through one defamation suit So I was, in the end, the court said what I said was not defamatory, but that whole process was about three years and super stressful. So I think, again, other people who are elected that are higher places, whether they're in law enforcement or they're in cabinets, they know this is happening and they need to do something about it. And I think I'm kind of in a way whistleblowing, but I don't need to get sued. So, and I think that's why other people haven't come out either. There have been threats of legal action if this goes any further.

So up to the Premier to do this. May I ask, like with great respect to the fact that you have been willing to push this issue, I guess the fear that Canadians, British Columbians, so many have is nobody's coming forward. This isn't being addressed. Nothing's being done. And so I just wonder, has there been a thought of like if you all came out at the same time and did it together rather than like you're vulnerable as an individual, but as a group of people coming forward and saying, hey, this is what we know. It's going to be

a lot more work. It's going to raise a lot more media attention. You're going to have a lot more support if you do it as a cohesive group rather than as individuals. But I guess my fear is, my understanding is the premier is basically saying, I have no idea what you're talking about. And so it's not clear that this is going to be addressed if you don't do it. And I don't want to put that on you. I don't want you to have to go through the legal troubles. But for the sake of our democracy, like, that is, that's what we're talking about. And I just wonder, how have you grappled with that? Is there pathways to do this in a safer way?

There's total pathway for an elected member of parliament because you can't be sued. If you stand up in your seat and say something and you bring it up in the House of Commons, you can't be sued. Right. You're immune from that. And so for the MPs and MLAs that are protected with parliamentary privilege, they should be the one saying this, right? I mean, it is known by multiple people that have these parliamentary protections and all the resources,

and they're staying quiet. And they know about interference in all kinds of aspects of things. I mean, they're, you know, the folks that they get the confidential briefings from the security, I understand that they can't, you know, they go to jail if they talk about confidential documents. But, you know, what happened in the end, how this came out was, You know, basically somebody within CESIS leaked transcripts to the, through the globe of mail. Like, that's how I think desperate CESIS is at the moment is that they, nobody, like it was explained to me, nobody's really listening upstairs. Somebody leaked transcripts to the globe and mail.

Like, I, I didn't see the transcripts, but I was looking at the reporter's notebook when I was, and they had quotes that they had, they had seen the transcripts. They had written quotes down from the transcripts, and that's what they were asking me about. So this is all hovering just below the surface and it's going to take, it's got to, like, it's got to take somebody like, I know, like Michael Cooper is a very outspoken, you know, Sam Cooper. No, not Sam Cooper. Okay. Michael Cooper? The MP. Okay.

Very pro-Taiwan, outspoken guy. I think somebody like that should kind of take this on as a bit of a quest to try to get to the bottom of the stuff. Like those, somebody, I don't think the liberals are going to do it as something that a conservative MP should probably take on and use parliamentary privilege to kind of push this out and try to get more movement on interference. I had Premier David E.B. on the show. I asked him specifically about this allegation. He said, he says neither CIS nor the RCMP have raised concerns with him about his cabinet or his caucus. How do you interact with that claim? Do you think that that's true? What's going on here?

Well, I would listen very carefully to what lawyers say to you because they're going to phrase it in a way that's not confirm or deny without saying anything. And so when you say, I have not been briefed by CES or the RCMP about this, full stop, it doesn't mean he doesn't know. Right. So. Can I ask? Yeah.

Did the Chinese government try to remove you as mayor? in your opinion? No, I mean, there was a whole bunch of people trying to get rid of me as mayor. The police were another group. Like, they endorsed Kim Sim and ran a big campaign against me, first time ever in the history of the city. So I had the police were against me. I think that, you know, I do have friends in the Chinese community

who were reporting all this stuff that was, all this activity that was happening on the ground, which if you piece it together, it was at least somewhat coordinated by the consulate out here. But in the end, Like, the Vancouver voters decided that election, right? Like, I do think interference made it difficult both by the police and our own domestic police and the Chinese government to kind of fight back.

Plus, like, I had all the baggage of COVID, right? Like, COVID was, if you, all the mayors across Canada, I'm pretty sure of the larger cities that went through COVID are no longer there. Like, all of them either resigned or lost the election afterwards. it was really COVID was really tough on local governments. People were really mad. Like my election was 2022, right? People were really mad about COVID, all the lockdowns, you know, all this stuff.

And local governments, like, we were shutting down restaurants, right? We were having to work with the police to, you know, illegal gatherings, issuing orders all the time, you know, really oppressing people's freedom, which you can understand has a backlash. And it's like a lot of mayors caught that, caught that backlash, right? people were, that's part of the reason why I got the World Cup, right? Like I was thinking, what can we do to spruce people up? I know the province didn't want to have the World Cup here, but I actually worked behind the scenes with FIFA officials. And we were able to, John Oregon, rest in peace, sorry, he's passed, a good premier.

He was against the World Cup. Didn't want it, didn't want it, didn't want it, didn't want it. But we got him in a press conference and say, well, maybe. And I knew once we got him, maybe, there's nowhere, he couldn't go back to no, right? So we finally got him to a yes. So I was really happy. Like, you know, World Cup's just, just over. It's been a total shot in the arm for Vancouver.

I'm really happy that we were able to get it here. But I was thinking about that through COVID because COVID was so bad for the city. And it's like, what do we have to look forward to it? And why not bring the world to your doorstep? And it's huge success. So I do think, you know, Chinese interference, the, you know, Chinese government interference, the police kind of, I did call them out for racism within the police. Like I had a series of press conferences where, you know, I was the chair of the police board, too.

And I was saying that police are systemically racist here. They, they stop indigenous, black, racialized people, way more often than white folks. We've had reports that said that and they needed to reform. Cops did not like that, right? So, anyway, I guess if you pick too many fights, eventually they're going to take you down. And that's kind of what happened. But anyway, I do it all again. Do you have any regrets on how you approached COVID or some of the comments about the police?

Because like one pushback I'll make about the police because they get this criticism a lot. And you may have other data that refutes what I'm saying. But like the most likely to be homeless and on the streets are often indigenous and black people and people of minorities. So they're more likely to get pulled over no matter what because when you go into the downtown east side, you're just that's the dominant groups of people in those hardened circumstances. So it's just statistically more likely you're going to see those types of people than white people. And that's not because the police are racist. It's just a matter of who, which marginalized communities are in those circumstances.

So broadly speaking, what are your folks? To mention the report, like taking all that into taking all that into account, we still found it was even higher than what the circumstances you suggest should be. So, you know, and they know it too, right? I mean, like, it is a very tough job being a police officer. Like, I mean, in my mind, they're workers that need to be supported. So it's usually up-level management. That's the problem, right?

So I'm not saying police officers are racist. I'm saying the system is built. It's like all colonial structures, right? They are, they were built. I mean, think about policing at the turn of the 20th century, right? I mean, well, you know, you think of RCMP, residential schools, you think of all that stuff, right? And that was a colonial structure that this structure is still built on, right? So they still have to do more work and it's got to go beyond land

acknowledgments. It's got to be like serious factual looks at how the city's being policed. And so I didn't say, you know, I know that police chief was saying, no, I'm not a racist. He would say it's like, no, I'm not saying you're not, you know this too. They know it. They know themselves. They do their own internal studies, right? That they know. And I would say the VPD is probably one of the better police, you know, services in the country. There's still a long way to go, though. And your job as mayor is to call us out, right? Like, you have to make the city work for everybody, especially the ones who is not working for the most.

You know, the people that are kind of worse done by, you've got to help them the most. Do you have any regrets, broadly speaking, about your time in office? I don't know. What I went there was to build, really the main goal was to build as much rental housing as I could. And even with my massively fractured counsel, if you look at the stats of approvals, man, we've built so much rental housing. And much of it was we locked in rent controls. So we say to developers, we'll give you an extra 10 floors, but you've got to make 20% of these units permanently affordable to people who make minimum wage. And so where where I got in trouble on the west side of the city where they never built any rental housing is we just put tons of it in the west side of the city.

So kits, other spots like this, they hadn't built rental housing there since the 70s. And so we were putting in building after building. And, you know, I was winning these votes on council like 6, 5. It was really, really close. But that, like, so. And that was going so well until COVID blew everything off. Like, it was so brutal. I had to lay off 20% of.

of my workforce, you know, we had massive revenue cuts. If we hadn't, like, I got in a lot of trouble because I said, wow, I'd run a survey with residents saying, can you pay your property taxes, you know, right at the beginning of COVID? And 25% of the city said no. So I'm like, holy crap, that is going to put a massive hole in our revenue. So I went to the federal, you know, I had a press conference and I called on the federal provincial governments to start helping municipalities. I got in all kinds of trouble for that. But, But in the end, they did. In the end, the Fed sent a whole bunch of money out to cities.

And we were able to kind of not balance our books, but at least fill that hole because, you know, policing costs went up. Revenies went down. It was a really tough time for cities. It was really hard to explain that to people, right, who are already, they're out in their patios, banging their pots and pans, and they're saying, you know, no, there's no vaccine. They're not, they're worried if you're going to lose their jobs and their homes. And you're the person on TV saying,

got to shut down your restaurant, sorry, uh, had to declare a state of emergency, cancel St. Patrick's Day, you know, like,

it's, it's not, it's not, it's not, people need a while to process that type of stuff. Right. So, and we didn't really have a chance in COVID.

So, uh, yeah, regrets, um, I don't know, I would have liked to build more rental housing. I build a ton,

but I would like to, to build more. And, um, uh, I don't know, like, uh,

I don't think so. I think, I mean, I'm sure less than people can point out things I did wrong, but I think I was very true to my principles and I try to do, I always think the middle class and rich people can kind of take care of themselves. I think who we have to help is the modern and low income folks. Like that's, that was kind of my own. And you can tell from the first bit of our conversation that that's very important to me. And I think that's how all mayors should be. You know, if you own a $20 million house, you don't really need much help. But if you're, if you made it into Vancouver, you come from top, top circumstances, and you're just trying to get a job. And, you know, that's, that's a place where we're a little bit of boost will help everybody. We've seen several opposition MPs cross over to the liberals. Is Mark Carney legitimately attracting people from other parties or building a majority the voters did not give him, in your opinion? Yeah. I mean, people ask me, they ask me, what do I think of Mark Kearney?

And I go, he's a banker. Like, right? Like, he, Stephen Harper is dreaming about what Mark Kerney is doing, right? Mark Kearney is basically got Harper's agenda and some, right? Increased defense spending, you know, more doubling or whatever oil and gas production. Like, that's everything Harper wanted to do, reducing social services. Like all that stuff, Carney's doing it in a way that Harper would have got destroyed over.

But people are embracing this. So I do think he's a very crafty dude, right? And he's been able to woo people over or send him out. He's going to use every tool in his toolbox to keep himself in power. Because I don't think Carney's really a Democrat. I think he's a banker. Like he wants to run an efficient country. And even though that might seem unfair,

I actually think he's the right guy for the job at the moment because the economic turmoil from Trump is, if Kuzma gets canceled, we are in deep, deep trouble. Like, it's already bad. You're seeing housing markets drop and all that kind of stuff. Like, if Kuzma gets canceled or altered in a way that a lot of our trade is unprotected, you are going to see massive job losses. And that is not good. So even though Kearney's not going to put me on any panels, I can tell you that he's probably at the moment the right person. I do think, I don't think Pollyev is. I think Pollyev is kind of, kind of reimagined himself.

He was built to defeat Trudeau and he did that, but he's not built to defeat Kearney. So I think the NDP's job with Lewis is to just make sure Kearney doesn't. and make sure he kind of keeps the social safety net in place and expands it where he can. I guess I'm very surprised to hear you say that because, first of all, I just had Robert Fife on the show. And what was really interesting is he said something similar. He said he's, Mark Carney's doing a remarkable job. And he hasn't done anything yet. Like, none of what he's saying he's going to build more pipelines, that none of that has actually come to fruition.

he said that he wants to change the tax code. None of that has happened. A lot of the guests I've had on recently have been like, we have to wait and see. And so there's not a lot of meat to the bone at this point. And then I guess my other piece is like Mark Carney portrayed himself as a very environmentally focused individual, came out with a book called Values,

and has just completely moved from those positions and has made a lot of promises. But it's been a year. He said we were going to build. at speeds we've never seen before. Nothing's been built yet. As a First Nation community, I can tell you,

like factually speaking, we have heard if we tie ourselves to a project that's already near completion, we can get the Build Canada Homes support because they want to tie themselves to already finished projects and show up at the end game. To me, none of this is showing a positive trajectory.

I do think to your point that Mark Carney, is an expert manager. He knows how to manage things. So he's rather than participating in democracy, I think personally he's managing it because he's showing up and he's getting people to cross the floors. Between us,

I think he is making promises to these individuals. And I'd just be interested, the Michael Mall one is an extremely contentious one because people think Chinese foreign interference played a role in him coming on and then crossing the floor. What are your takes on that one? Well, first of all, like, I don't know, how long has he been in, like just a year?

A year. Yeah. That's a little time. But how long did it take to build the, the Trans Mountain Pipeline? Like, it took 12, 14 years from conception to, you know, turning on the tap. So, you know, pipelines take a long time. And, you know, I just tell you something about the T of XX pipeline. When they built it in the 50s, the original line, it, at First Nations, of course, as you well know, couldn't hire lawyers.

So they built it through Resortals. reserves. So if you trace the line, it goes all through reserve land because nobody could object to it legally. Right. And so if you're building pipelines now, can't do that anymore. So it, it, it, these, these, these kind of pipelines will take a while to build. So I don't think he's, you snap your fingers. So, so, so those kind of like, like, Cite C dam, for example, that takes a long time to construct. Um, defense procurement will be quicker. I think you're going to start seeing things show up, uh, that he's actually going to spend money on. But I would say, you, you know, it is signing the contract that matters.

And that's, so that, to me, that's as good as built. When a contract signed for a pipeline or a contract signed for jet fighters or whatever, that, that's as good as done. Like the money's allocated and spent and that's the way it goes. So, uh, look, I think the turmoil, I don't want to be a carnion, apologist, but I'm saying the turmoil is so nuts. I mean, we got an extra 50% tariffs on a whole bunch of items yesterday, right? So, so it's moving so fast.

and the attitude of the U.S. is so different and there's such a big partner that you have to walk a very fine line between, you know, giving away too much or, you know, making the dragon roar. Like so, so and then at the same time building partnerships, who do you go to? Like, you know, China, okay, I'm not in favor of that, but maybe they're the only place you have. So it is totally different than what any prime minister is faced probably since World War II. Like it is, it's a big deal. And I do like his cabinet too. I mean, I hate to say that. But there's, you know, aren't they the same cabinet?

Well, I really like champagne. I think he's a, he is a good dealmaker. I like Patty Haydoo. I like Anita and Ann. I think these are good. He's got some good thinkers there. I also really like how the, like, you know who. Pollyover viz me of is Arthur Mien.

Arthur Mian. Arthur Mian was prime minister for one year, but he was a thorn on the side of McKenzie King. Like he, like, McKenzie King would not go to parliament because he would just get ripped a new one every time by Arthur Mian. Such a great debater. And that's what Palliab is. He is the ultimate opposition leader. He will just rip you to pieces every day, all day. But I don't think Canadians see that as a prime minister.

So he, if he needs to pivot to a place where he's not just the attack. And I sat in parliament with him for seven years. Like I watched him rip people to pieces and he's very good at that. But can he build, can he build that extra 10% he needs to become prime minister? So I'm glad he's on the other side, you know, given Kearney hell, because that's your job. I hope the NDP can do a little more of that. They're trying hard with their mighty little caucus. but really all the wages on the conservatives now to keep Cardi and, you know, they do a good job at it.

They, you know, like, and so I actually think the balance is, I'd like to have more Democrats there, but I do think that conservatives are going to keep the liberals in check and make them deliver on some of this stuff, right? And Polyev is really good at this. I used to go to the House to watch Polyev debate. Wow. You know, this is why my party hated me, right? Like, oh, Paulioms, I'm going to go down to watch him because he's a libertarian or he was at that point. And like, it's rare that you get to see a pure libertarian, like, debate and really good at.

So I know he doesn't like me very much, but I did like, I did enjoy him watching him debate, even though I don't agree with his stuff. Are you going to run for mayor this coming election? No, not this election, no. I, uh, it's too fractured on the left. And I, you know, the thing with politics is you got to look at the windows, right? And I, I don't see a window for mayor. Uh, that's not a never though. Uh, and, you know, had thought about maybe federal politics again, too. So I am enjoying my, my time at the university. I'm 60 this year. So I guess that's a reflection point. And you think, hmm, you know, uh, do you have another ship to sail on? I, I don't know. So, but it's, it is in the back of my mind. And I do, I do think about it. And I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, I, I, I, I, I And I can't really watch the local news too much because I just think, oh, they've missed this opportunity. They're not catching enough federal money that really bothers me. Like I was able to leverage a billion dollars in housing investment over my time as mayor. And these guys are turning stuff down.

And I just like, I'm like, what do you do it? Like this is free money for transit. It's free money. Like in the feds with BC, they just, they don't care that much about BC. Like they care about Ontario and Quebec. So they're happy just to shovel money off and somebody has to catch it, right? And I don't see that happening. So, you know, so, so that would be a reason to go back is to is to get more stuff for BC and Vancouver.

But at this point, the window's not open. And I'm honestly, I mean, I think Ken Sims going to win again myself, even though he's quite unpopular. But I don't think that's necessarily a good thing for the city. How can people follow your work? I had these people study my social media, like they did the social media study, and they said when I was mayor, the most attacked person in Canada was Trudeau,

and I was second. Like, I would go on my Twitter feed, and I'd have like 100,000 people that had viewed the thing I posted and like, just the death threats and this, So I, like, get off of Twitter and so I'm not really on social media. I have gone on LinkedIn, but I mainly do my academic stuff there.

So, um, so I kind of like this for, I like people inviting me to speak. I'm going to CBC today. They don't, well, they will want me to talk about Metro Vancouver reforms. I'm happy to do that. I, I think, like, I enjoy the work you do. I really feel, uh, lucky that you invited me here. Like, I, I really like what you're doing. I like your own.

approach. I think it's really the only way forward is to have good conversations. And I, and I, I, I also like that you're an elected leader that that that's leading your, you know, your, your, your, your nation. And I do think that that it's very brave to do this, uh, when you're in this position. So good on you. And, uh, and like, get stuff from the feds. Like, that's all I can say. They have, they have, they have more than they're willing to, to tell you. And you can always get stuff out of them. So I know you do that already. Yeah, so for me, that's it. I'm happy just to, you know, arm to your quarterback for a while and then we'll see what happens. Well, thank you, Mr. Stewart. I think that the piece I appreciate the most about our conversation today is that you're not ideologically, I would say, possessed. You're not, you don't only see things through your mind. You see it through others. And I think that's, that's broadly where Canadians are. That's broadly where people are on their day to day. But we have had more teamsmanship on all.

of these things. And so it's harder to get a real understanding of these things. So I just appreciate how you approach these things. I'm sure lots of people might not agree with some of the things you've said, but you can understand that you've got some more right-leaning perspectives, some more left-leaning perspectives. You can watch Pierre Polyeve and you're not offended

by seeing him exist, which some people on the left are. And so I just really, I very much appreciate that perspective in your approach. I mean, most people have most politicians, I think, some are selfish in their right-offs, but the other ones mostly have their community's interests in mind and they understand their communities and they're representing their perspectives.

So you do have to respect that. And that's the only thing that makes democracy work. So thanks for having me. I really enjoyed being here today. Well, said, thank you so much. Okay. See ya.