Nuanced. - 28. Andrew Victor: Pastor & Chief of Cheam First Nation

Episode Date: July 27, 2021

Andrew Victor is the Chief of Cheam First Nation, Pastor for Chilliwack Native Pentecostal Church, Council Member with First Nations Health Council, Father, and Husband.Previous to becoming Chief of Cheam First Nation, Andrew served as a Council Member. Andrew also serves as a Council member with the First Nations Health Council, which is a provincial-level political and advocacy organization that is representative of and accountable to BC First Nations. As well, Mr. Victor received his Bachelor's of Arts in Intercultural/Multicultural and Diversity Studies at Prairie College in Alberta Canada.Send us a textSupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Andrew Victor, it's an absolute pleasure to sit down with you because I've gotten to see the development of Shiam over the past couple of years when I started as a native court worker and have kind of seen the progress you've made and hearing about the new development really caught my attention and made me eager to want to have you on. So I'm wondering if we could start with a brief introduction. Sure. So I'm Andrew Victor, currently the chief of Champer's Nation. But my family, my mom's side, is from Squyala and Upper Nicola. My dad's parents are from Chiam and Squamish. And just a little bit about myself.

I have my private pilot's license, not active. It was a bit costly with the family. but I got my private pilot's license before I got my driver's license. Wow. As a teenager, I went to Barcelona during the Olympics. What was that like?

That was in, I don't even remember what year. That was, 92. That was pretty amazing. A group of, I went with a group of young people as part of a church trip. to do missions with the churches in Barcelona. Got to see part of the city that was quite amazing just to connect with people and that language barrier was tough,

but just walking alongside people. It was pretty cool. I think one day we went to the Olympics, just to observe. So that was pretty cool, just to have that experience to go outside of the country. Right. A little shocking to see the London airport with the armed guards throughout the airport.

But yeah, it was an amazing trip. For my wife and I, we've been married for about 23 years. Just over 23 years now. That was just on July 4th. Yeah. And we have four children. Our oldest is 17 and her youngest is 17. and her youngest is 10.

Yeah. That's been quite the journey, just growing together as a family and trying to figure out how to do life together and what kind of life choices we want to make together as a family. And to be a council member for Chiam, so in 2015 when I first got elected,

we just sat together as a family. is like this is, the elders are asking if I would run for council and just have that family discussion. As a family, we said yes. And so every election we've sat down together, especially this last election when our family, our family made a decision that the kids and my wife were willing for me to stand with my nomination

to run as chief. And so just trying to figure out those life choices together and the kids having their saying it all. But before we got married, my wife and I, we met at Bible College. But it was always in my heart to be a pastor. And so after Baba College, graduated in 99.

We went up to Edmonton. I worked in the First Nations Church there on just like an intern position. And then when we moved here in 2002, I started pasturing with my parents. My parents started the church at Chilliwack Native Pentecostal Church. Wow. Can you tell us how that all came about for you?

What called to you about that? Well, It was young when I was introduced to Jesus Christ and to the church. Again, it was a family decision that we decided to walk this journey. But that journey started with my dad. facing jail time and so my mom so my mom

so my dad and his his buddy they were into to drinking and partying, fighting, fighting, whatever that journey took them on but my

mom and his the other man's wife they became friends and so what my mom saw in her basically seeing our lives on the same journey going down the same path uh became a question of why are you more at peace with your life and all the turmoil that our families are in yeah and how do i get there And so that was how our family was introduced to Jesus Christ and really changed how we walked from there. Because dad ended up going to jail. He did, the judge acknowledged that he, he was a family man, acknowledged that the impacts to a family if he was in jail 24-7 doing his whole sentence. so he got sentenced to weekends so that he can still work and provide for the family and so

so that provided our family an opportunity to attend church that wasn't there he couldn't say no and so i think that was a year maybe a bit longer forgets the exact timeline i was just three four years old and so yeah so that started our our journey together and then just a year and half later from so that was for my mom and my sister and I that was October 79 that was a family we decided we're going to walk this journey a year and half later April 81 After dad's buddy died in a motorcycle accident, the same family that the wife introduced us to Christ, that man passed away. And so then caused my dad to struggle with how do I journey from here? How do I find a path from here?

And so it took time, but he made his decision to follow Christ. And then from there, our family just got active in doing Christian ministry. And so just seeing the different things I saw as in the church growing up, it was just in my heart that I wanted to continue doing what my parents were doing. What did it fill for you because I think that that's important and I'm just interested to know what were the aspects that called to you forward and pulled you in this direction? I think it was the piece that is available. Because there are so many troubling things in our lives. and that people fail us, systems fail us,

and we can feel that life is a failure. And I think a lot of our struggles is around a bit of that focal point of what is, how does failures, whether others or our own, how that impacts us. And for me, growing up, life is never perfect. It's always a struggle to figure out how to make progress. But for myself, in making progress, it was always centered in faith.

being taught as a young boy in grade one to pray, like that really changed my life. It's funny how my dad taught me, but it stuck with me all these years. Can you tell us about that? What is your process of prayer? Because I think for most people, when they hear it,

they think of, I want a new car, I want a lot of money. There's a disconnect. between what prayer is and what people think it is, I think for a lot of people. Yeah, for sure. For how my dad taught me,

a lot of it hasn't been about words, but about attitude of heart. and those desires of your heart of what progress looks like how to how to journey in a good way and

like for prayer my dad challenged me it's like when you're playing hockey are you praying when you're doing school work are you praying when you're playing friends in the playground, are you praying? When you're kicking the soccer ball in the field alone or with others, are you praying?

When you're sitting at the dinner table eating, are you praying? And so it really just became just a way of life of where is your heart at? And how do you want to live the teachings that you've received? And focusing on that journey of what is what I'm currently doing mean to how to live in a good way.

And so how to hockey attitudes and emotions are all part of it. But to go back to those teachings, it's like, ah, love your neighbor. as yourself or pray for your enemies or or the golden rule like all of these things that's that you're taught is like ah do i really have to live that right now and just be really honest as like i don't want to yeah but having that attitude of prayer and all of life being a ceremony all of life being a prayer. It does make you stop and evaluate in the moment. It was like, oh, no, I'm, I want to do this. This is what my feelings want me to do right now, and I fully want to do it, but, okay, how do I shift and follow the teachings that I've been given? And so that's how I've seen

prayer that's how I was taught what prayer was yeah and and just having those those moments to to realign as to what does it mean to to to live life in a good way and to be honest of well there's times I don't want to at all and and having those struggles to and so it's just being honest with it's like I have these teachings and my faith life has taught me these things and God I need help I think that's so important because that's part of what the podcast is about I've had guests come on and and go I'm not perfect don't get this confused and it's my hope is that they can understand that that ability to say sometimes I don't want the best. And sometimes I'm not pointing in the right direction, but to own that and try and turn

things around and move in a better direction is what being a role model to me means, which is why it's so important to have individuals like yourself on is because I think that a lot of people, when they have platforms similar to mine, they want to avoid the conversation about how their faith informs their community involvement and informs their decisions. And I think that it's important not to shy away from that, that for most people, for most strong role models, their faith does help inform how they operate in the community. And it should because I think right now for a lot of our society, they're struggling with, there are a lot of problems and how do we fix all these problems? And I think at the end of the day, we can't fix all problems. We can progress in a

better direction and do better and better. But there is no, this isn't the planet, this isn't a place where all problems are fixed by us. We're imperfect. We all have flaws and we make mistakes daily and we have to own those and wake up the next day and try and make less mistakes and try and do better by people and really have that humility

to try and figure out what am I doing wrong? How am I approaching my family members wrong and my community wrong? And how could I be doing better in my career before we start being frustrated with the systems that also have issues? Yeah. So I'm interested to know what pulled you to Bible College

and what made you travel for that? Was there something about that area that called to you? Well, I, like growing up, I looked at a bunch of different schools. But in grade 11, I decided I wanted to go to Prairie College in Three Hills, Alberta. And it was predominantly their missionary aviation program. That's where I got my pilot license at Bible College. That's what drew me to the school. And so my first year there, I took their mission aviation program.

But while there, I acknowledged that seeing the course work there and the opportunities there, I actually switch programs to their intercultural studies. And it was that coursework that really transformed my thinking at how to see the bigger picture, to not just be stuck in my own little. world in my own perspectives growing up that that really challenged and taught how to how to deal with assumptions and presuppositions and how you encounter those with people that we all come with our own assumptions we all come with our presuppositions

we all have our own perspectives and that's what we bring to to a situation and so like growing up that that really helped me to look at life, but looking at intercultural relations and what multiculturalism looks like and really struggling with truths and struggling with understanding that people have truth. And there are multiple truths that people live. and how to be comfortable with trusting people's truths and how to live my own truth with other truths. Because there are truths,

we need to acknowledge the truth and reality of other cultures, other faiths, and really struggle with how do I live mine, amongst others but yeah it was really the aviation program that got me there and then being in that that school and faith community in in a tiny little Alberta community it really challenged to open open my own eyes to understand a bigger picture and I like I it was tough being away from home here in BC that I grew up I grew up here I grew up along this the stretch of the

river fishing it was even along this stretch of the river that that I almost drowned as a little boy and so just being so tied to to place And to be so far away from home, it was, it was hard. Like, especially with funerals. Yeah. That was, that was so hard. It was like, I just, that's when I really felt alone. Yeah.

And so disconnected. But also, I grew more to appreciate what those family connections are, being away, and just having that longing to be back here again. So, yeah, Alberta was a tough decision. Because even though my parents didn't start the Chilliwack Church until I was away at Bible College in 96. They started the church. But even before that, even though my parents were involved in Christian ministry since I was a little boy, things in our family changed. And my dad went back to and even went into drugs. And so it was a strong.

those teen years and so like even though in grade 11 I decided like okay that's the school I want to go to in grade 12 I didn't know if I could like the doors were open I'm very grateful that CHAM's education program was willing to to help fund me to to go to Baba College but I really struggle because I didn't want my mom to be alone that our family dynamics that we've we we got separated from each other yeah for for so long and and so really it wasn't into to late spring early summer of 94 is like I still didn't know and then as we got closer to September I was enrolled and but it was in it was in August of 94 that

my dad came even though because he was off doing drugs like there were times I and it wouldn't see him like three months on at a time. And so he came home and he sat down with me and mom as well. The three of us were in our living room together. And he just apologized to say that I didn't mean to choose this. It was it was never in my heart that I wanted to go down this direction. And so he made a commitment to me that day in our living room that he was fed up with where he was at. And he wanted to get his life back on track with the teachings that he taught me how to live life in a good way.

how to journey life in a good way. And he also committed that he was going to be there for my mom. Because that was my real concern, was to leave mom alone, not to have the family support because we were always taught we take care of our own. And so just, like, I remember that as a little boy is like, how can I take care of mom being hundreds, over 1,000 miles of, well, I guess not miles, but kilometers, And so that was my internal struggle.

And so over that month, I was like, can I trust them? Can I take the step of where I see I want my life to go to achieve, using education to achieve what I see in my heart. that I want to do but still having that struggle of is everything in place to take care of my mom the way she needs to be taken care of yeah and so September I did go it was it was tough phone home every week to check out my mom to check out my mom to see how my dad was doing and just personally I needed it but I also needed it to have that connection to to know that those commitments made and are sitting on our

couch and in our living room I can still picture that moment of having that that tough conversation of willing to make those changes, willing to go down a different journey as a family. That's such a different story than what I think we are used to hearing of young people running away and wanting to go off to university and party and make short-term interested decisions. What was that like for you to leave and have this weight of like, how is everybody doing?

And did that bring you closer to the work and the things you were learning in school? Um, it was a struggle. Uh, uh, like the, the journey of following Christ, it has always had challenges, not just with history of Indian residential schools and just the different feelings in families of the church.

But still the church, it never, like, theologically and socially, the church growing up, It never struggled with cultures, plural, that there are multiple cultures. It always just dealt with the Christian faith as being a culture in it of itself. That it just, it always had that assimilation aspect to it. It's like, okay, you leave who you thought you were and this is who you become. And so it always had so many of those struggles And just trying to figure out those different things And I remember in the church growing up

Different things that had a struggle with different statements that were made and just different experiences And those assumptions and presuppositions that people had Of being an Indian in the church And often being the only Indian family in that church and then also bringing more of our relatives to church with us from neighboring communities and so just having all those different struggles and then even getting into to Bible College still struggling with those things like they're they're teaching theology and

it's like well I understand the theology I understand where they where we receive that from the scriptures, but how do we struggle with this in the midst of multiculturalism? That there's, at the Prairie College, that there were students from Korea, there are students from Germany, there were students from, oh, where was he from again? Shoot, I forgot where he's from, but from Africa. And so just different ones that I tried to connect with just to understand their journey in faith. Even missionary kids that they grew up in boarding schools and just sitting with them and understanding their journey of their parents being missionaries in this country,

but they're in a boarding school way over these other countries. and just trying to learn from other people's journeys. And yet still struggling with my parents and my sister and our family journey and how our family grew apart and still trying to find ways of how to bring some of those connections back together and that's a lifelong journey because today it's like almost three years ago my my dad passed away um but mom sister and I were still trying to figure out how do we walk together in a good way how do we heal from the trauma the the the the struggles and

those burdens and obstacles that are in our lives. How do we find healing to live together in a healthy way? And trying to understand not just another story of our life and how they see it so much differently, but also how how I currently live or how the others currently live can still trigger trauma in our own lives and so just having that understanding that so many things in our lives

are still a healing issue and so being a way in Alberta at Baba College. Like it was a big struggle trying to work through those things. And but also to struggle with those things not having family right there. And so it was a lot of collect calls just to try to find that stabbleness. And so calling my parents, calling my sister.

and just trying to find a way even through the phone how to understand how we got to where we were as a family and how to even just to struggle to find out where others were at as to where do you want to go from here? And I think at Baba College that really became the big question for me personally it was how do I journey from here because even

when my parents dropped me off got me into the dormitory at Baba College and I remember standing there in the parking lot before they drove away is just

are we ready? Am I ready? Are my parents ready? Are we ready to journey from here. Like so much got us to this point, but so many things that we haven't dealt with yet, that yeah, we had that conversation in August, but there are so many things we didn't deal with yet. Were we in a good enough place that we can take this step? And so that it was a struggle for me to be that far away. and so I took the opportunities I could to get back here and some of it was coming out

soccer team out here to Abbotsford to play in a soccer tournament and different things that just to have those reconnections and to find out in my own learning and growth and struggling with myself and where I want to grow in my own life

coming back home to find out are we ready for this because I took steps to grow but are others ready to to walk with where I'm at now. How do I remake those connections? And so I really found that to be the struggle because it was so much a family journey

in how we made choices. And when we had those disconnects of family astraying, It made it difficult to find a path as to are we still going in this direction? And how to regroup. So it was, it made for, like summers, like after the school year was done coming back in summers, it was, that was always the challenge. Like the growth that I had personally, being challenged academically, being challenged, just engaging in a different community and what those dynamics brought and learning from people from other countries and to their own journeys. But also just how things were changing politically.

like one of the main things I remember from when being at Baba college was like the whole referendum about Quebec and Elijah Harper holding that eagle feather like some of those like those were some of the context that a lot of questions from other people

It's like, oh, hey, you're an Indian. How many I understand that? It's just like, okay. Like just being thrown into those types of contexts too. And just on a larger scale than just a small school or small Chilliwack. It just had all those different dynamics to really stretch and grow in. And so I really appreciated switching into the Intercultural Studies program to begin looking at that bigger picture and just begin understanding the cultural dynamics of perceptions and how to bridge to those conversations and really lean on similarities of. how people understand cultures and what they view but then also how to begin

correcting and getting people to from their perspective to to see more of what reality is not just perspectives of reality of this is my truth I need you to see my truth and and to help learn how to To make those movements, to see things differently. And so then to bring those things to a family dynamic of, and that's where I really struggled. Because I was the child. I was the little brother. How do I teach?

my parents. How do I teach my sister? Like that, that was a struggle in it of itself. I was like, okay, I know how I got to where I am now. How do I become comfortable to talk about our family failures so that we can have healing and get to a new place together? that that was a huge struggle. But I really leaned on my dad's teachings growing up, especially like assumptions and presuppositions and those teachings that he had from his Bible college days that really opened his eyes to know how to relate to people.

That's why he really taught me a lot about it. And then to take what I learned about cultures, and how to bridge those gaps. It wasn't easy, and it still hasn't gotten any easier. I may be an adult. I may be a father. But... It's an honor to have the title of a son. It's an honor to have that title of a brother.

And to still try to figure out how to live those relationships in an honorable way. And to still trying to find healing together. It is a lifelong journey. because the reality is that none of us are perfect and the journey we learn as we go and I still struggle with those conversations of failure whether it was actual failure or just perceptions and feel failure and trying to figure out how to grow from there, how to journey

from there. For, like, for my dad and I think it was the river that has really helped us. just being on the river together fishing and it was a place it was a place of its own and but it was also a place

of so much history. Because there are even places on the river that I'll, because my oldest daughter, she fishes with me. My son, he's come out with us a few times. But coming out on the river, even with my own kids and my wife, well, we'll go up and down the river. I'll take them to the different places that we fish.

Like there's so much history there. Um, and so, and so the story, like being on the river with my dad, the story always felt so much different. Because it wasn't about failures. It wasn't about struggles or obstacles.

It was about Providing And And I think that's why it just became a different atmosphere to be able to heal together because it wasn't always a lot of words that brought healing

it was just the action of how to live together and I think the river and fishing really showed like at least from my dad and I how we can do that is you have to have a lot of respect for the river and you have to have a lot of trust for who you're there with to things change in a moment that the neck gets snagged

and you just got to do what you have to do you said that you almost drowned what happened there So I was maybe three years old. Yeah, probably was three. And so dad was out on the boat. He was coming back in from checking the net. And so I just went running out to meet him. And so I just went running into the river.

And I was, small it was, but there's drop-offs along the bank. And so I just went sinking in. And mom came running after me, and she pulled me out by my hair. And, like, that was, I don't even know how long it took, but it, like, even just to get, into a bathtub of an inch of water was so terrifying for so many years. I don't even remember how long. But because I was so young, like I don't remember a lot of what happened there, but that's the bit that I do remember.

but I love this place and so I've overcome that fear and I was able to get back into the water again and swim in in the river and and fish out here again and um Yeah, so it's, it's been an interesting journey, even just, even just with the river itself. So occasionally, like Dad and I, we'd go up and down to different places where we were we had where we had those stories. Just downriver from here at the, at the fence and the point of where, we're. Or even up here at the Ferry Island Park where we used to camp out. Just as a little boy, I remember having breakfast sitting on the hood of the car. Dad would be out checking the net or even mom when dad was in jail on weekends. Because fishing used to be Thursday to the Sunday.

So the net would get set out. I mean, in jail. And as a family, we would still check them. net mom would go out and check the net and so so yeah so remember a lot of like so there's a lot of stories a lot of memories um it was interesting walking to this location is like i probably haven't walked this area for quite a while but i remember walking and running and playing and all along here all along the the dike along here and going to the different fishing sites and before we had motors for our boats we would have to drive the vehicle as

close as we can and then carry it to the rest of the way and i remember even up there we had to get to the dike and have to carry the boat down to where the net was and up even along here um just a lot of a lot of cool memories um down this way. Remember you're having to, a huge sturgeon got caught in uncle's net and had to pull couldn't release the fish out of the net in the river. It was so big had to pull it up. So they had to pull it by a vehicle up onto up the slope to get it out. But it was big enough that I remember cousin opening the the mouth of the sturgeon and putting his head into it. It was so, so big. So yeah, just a lot of memories. And so we'd go up and down the river at

different times when we were fishing. And I think it was just us reliving those stories. the path that it that took us to get to where we were. And just being on the river fishing together, I think helped us acknowledge that we are in a different place. Even though Dad and I, we never really talked about how things strayed and those decisions. that were made and the journeys that we each took differently during those different times, but to acknowledge that we've come back together and just taking those moments to

heal together. Like for dad and I, a lot of it was just presence. A lot of it was just being active together in a new way. that brought us healing for each other in a positive way where you're able to just be around the person and I've always loved that indigenous culture looks at things as if it has a spirit

because I think that a good example is like people will be like this is a home, not a house and it's because there's something about saying that it's a home that has that spirit of love and support and care and I think that that transitions easily into a river having a spirit

and you have these memories and you have stories of how the river operates. And so I'm really interested to know some of the stories and some of that spirit that lives in the river or that you developed during your studies of intercultural relations and understanding how these things can come together. Yeah, it's always a challenging discussion. Like, especially with Christianity, because historically, I don't know where it started from, but it always having that negative connotation of indigenous cultures being animistic, rather than trying to find a positive way to begin a relationship. And so I think that was always the biggest, biggest hurdle to help people to get over, to get past, to actually begin looking with fresh eyes, to actually acknowledge for culture and spirituality for what it is.

That's still a lot of work that I do today. But for the past, I would say probably about the past 20 years, for me personally, I've seen more of a willingness of Christians to look at cultures in a new way, to really struggle with well is it the the I think the struggle of 20 years plus was is it okay for me to be stalo and be a Christian because as as a child that was that was a question I struggled with but I didn't know what I was struggling with um like once I got into Bible College and started wrestling with those questions of cultures and an understanding culture and having an actual definition of what culture was. It was like, okay, now I, it was through

those courses, okay, now I know what my struggle was. Now I can honestly struggle with it because I know what I'm dealing with now. And so a lot of, for me, church, ministry became with helping people to struggle with those questions in a healthy way. Because the history of the church was, well, your culture is no good. It has no part of Christianity. So you have to leave all of that behind and live like this. And so, as a family, we really struggled with what essentially can be called to war on cultures. And having that internal struggle in ourselves as to, okay, what aspects of being stalo is acceptable. And so, so, yeah, so even today, like in ministry, like, there's still those aspects of trying to help people wrestle with those things that,

sitting with elders, sitting with residential school survivors, sitting with 60 scoop survivors, sitting with 60 scoop survivors, sitting with people with so many different stories and hearing their stories and their journeys and their the internal trauma and those struggles within ourselves and to try to journey together in a way that it's good to be you that you are valued that my life has more meaning and purpose because of you

that you are a gift to me to this generation and so that's that's how I approach ministry as a faster and it's like the hard part is because it's like the hard part is because it's so painful for people to to wrestle through that to understand their value because of so much hurt so much trauma whether they're indigenous or not that there are so many things that we carry there are so many failures that we encounter in life, that it's, it's so hard to see value that we bring to life. And so whether that's journeying with,

a couple that got divorced, or parents whose child died young, or whatever all those journeys are, all those pains that we carry, it is a struggle to see value and worth that we bring. One of the things that I try to share with people, we come out to places like this and we can see and the river and just see beauty all around us. See a sunset and just be a man amazed and as I tried to remind people that we are part of creation as well and I can be amazed by you

that to understand journeys that we all take and to be who we are who we are and where we're at in this moment is amazing. It's because we've encountered so much. We may not have overcome all of it to where we want to be at, but we're still here. And we're still willing to find a way to get to what our heart desires. We may not know how to get there. as we journey together, we will find our way. And to take those moments to acknowledge that you are amazing. It's like, wow, like we see the eagle or the sunrise or the sunset or the fish in the river or whatever it is that we see that allows us to, to,

pause and to be healthy to be at peace that what I see in your life I can say the exact same thing that you amaze me and that gives me hope because someone else can the same thing and I think that's a little bit of what your podcast is about about role models is like wow that's so cool I and I could have missed it I could have been looking in another direction and not see that part and see the rainbow over there I could be just distracted by something else because there's mosquitoes, and I'm trying to get rid of the mosquitoes, but there's something amazing right in front of me.

And I think life is so much like that, that we get distracted. What is that like, because for you, because I think of how we look at people right now, and we complain about anti-maskers, and we look at a certain subsection of the population as just like outcasts and as stupid and as unacceptable. And I see this culture of that there's just this part of the population that we should just almost like exterminate.

Like we have no respect for that they have a soul, that they have something to offer our community or that they have, they might not be the most intellectual person, but that doesn't, I see that a lot within universities, is that the intellectual is the primary goal. And it's very frustrating because I've met brilliant, people who just don't operate in that way, but they offer value in different ways that I think our society struggles to understand. And so for you, when you see these things going on,

what is that like for you to watch people fall into these traps? Is it like heartache and frustration, like that we can do better and we should look at people with this intrinsic value? Because I agree, one of the things I've done my best to avoid is falling into the trap of I want to get the most famous people. I want to get the most famous people. I want to get the biggest names because in that you lose a lot of value of the people who serve the community quietly and with humility and who aren't looking for the newspaper article about them. They're willing to serve the community quietly and with this understanding that this is for the greater good of the community and I'm just one piece in this very important system

to try and make things better. And I think too often we miss those people. So what has that been like for you to work so hard because I find you to be incredible deep and to see things from this very fundamental perspective of that we are all connected and to miss out on that is to miss almost the whole piece of the puzzle yeah well it's like what you're saying like that's it's very detrimental to our growth as people but also our growth as as a society um because it's very very unfortunate that that we have We may not have a caste system, but I, it's sadding to see how too quickly we're willing to devalue someone.

it's it's yeah there's so many stories there there like one of my things my dad

taught was just to sit in silence with people that you don't need to say anything. Just be present. And because you can learn so much from people just by watching and listening. You can learn so much of their story without them not even saying anything either. Just in how they're comfortable or how they're anxious or how they're, how they're looking at a room, the context where they're at as to, what do they do to make themselves very comfortable?

To see someone come into a room and they're only looking at shoes. What is it? observe as to when did they actually begin looking more at people's faces and what allows them to become comfortable and

I think we miss out on so much as to what people have as a gift to this generation when we're so quick to write them off when I was like ah all they want to talk about is their own trauma like I had trauma I got over it why can't they or ah addictions again okay or whatever it is in in people's lives where we get so turned off from them we miss out on so much is it like for for me i think i think some of my most healing points in

understanding my own theology my own faith was when i was like oh That's what I was trying to figure out all along. But it took me being willing enough to say, I want to understand you and where you're at and why you got to where you're at and be willing to throw out everything that I believe because I need to understand your journey why you got there. and like one of the pieces for as a pastor that I had a struggle with was well we need to wrestle with what society is wrestling with and what does it mean to because we've had a history of

Canada trying to to implement legislation about gay marriage. And so there's a whole aspect of society that faith and theology is like, nope, not going there. Man and a woman, that's all who is to be married. And so even in my own journey of, okay, I'm a pastor, but my truth and how I live my truth isn't the only truth.

How do I live while respecting and honoring another person's journey, another person's truth? Because that's exactly what I expect people to do with Stalo culture, that can Canadian and their cultures, they need to find a way to respect Stalo and indigenous cultures. Acknowledge that where we've journeyed as Stolo people, that it's true, it's real. And they may not agree with how we've journeyed. to be and what are called all the different makeups of our culture. So whether that's like cannibalism.

And so we, throughout world history, there's been different cultures and we don't always agree with other cultures. But we can agree that how they've journeyed as a culture and where they've gotten to as a culture through history, that we can respect and honor that it is true. The truth of how they got to be who they are as a society is true. And we need to live with that truth.

And we need to respect that truth. And so those were some of the things I struggled with at Bible College going through those intercultural studies to have a high view of cultural. And in all honesty, the church and theology has never had a high view of cultures. Because historically, it's never wrestled with another culture that can be okay with the truth of their culture. It's always you need to live in this way. And so I think as a society, when we stop short of acknowledging truths

and that other people and other cultures have honestly struggled with reality of life, struggled with all the same questions that I've struggled with, what is the meaning of life? And what do we do with pain and emotions and good and evil and all of these types of questions

that everyone struggles with those questions in one fashion or another. And to respect the journey that they've taken to get to where they are, we may not appreciate where that journey has taken them. But to remove value, from them that they don't have anything to contribute is so detrimental to us. That there's so much that we don't learn.

Because it's in those moments where I was willing to sit down with someone and to say, I was like, okay, I know what I believe. And I know why I've chosen that for me. but I want to understand your journey and I sat with one man and we wrestled together and I don't know he may have felt like I was interrogating him just because I wanted to be honest with his journey

It's like, I understand what you're saying, but how may I understand the journey as to how you got there so that I can understand obstacles that I may be putting into the relationship? Or, who knows, I may come to a point as like, okay, I need to change. my theology, I need to change my faith. Because it doesn't fit anymore.

And just to have that openness, that willingness, to go through those journeys, to sit down, it's like, I value you enough. Because I just want to understand more as to what life brings. and what life means that my own assumptions and presuppositions, I don't want to end there.

Because what I currently know isn't enough to get to, for me to get to where I want to go. Because I want so much more in life than just what I can bring to it. I really just want to pull back because I think that being around people and not speaking has had a lot of impact for me because I think it's actually when

I've done my most growing, it's not when they're explaining to me who they are or why they did what they did. It's looking over at my mum because her and I did not have a good relationship from like 10 to 16, 17 right away I wanted to move out. And it was this feeling of both of us were living in poverty. And I didn't know who to blame or how to blame or what caused this life circumstance. So I directed that towards her because when we were at the bank machine, it would be like, oh, we've got like 73 cents left to our name. And I'd look at her and go, how can you say this?

Like, I don't want to hear this. I'm 13. Like, this is too hard for me to hear. This isn't fair. My life isn't fair. And there was a lot of resentment and frustration. And more recently, the things that help me see things from a different perspective. It isn't when she's apologizing or explaining what was going on during that period.

It's just to look at her when she's making a sandwich or trying to clean her room or just doing things. And me just sitting in the background and going, you took parenting classes. You had the child when people advocated that you should put it up for adoption, that you might consider aborting it, that you have these other options that she chose to have the child to raise it as her own. to take parenting courses, to do the best she could, even though at certain points that might not have been enough, that this is how she's lived her whole life and that everybody knows that she is proud of me and that she's done the best she can.

But to really take that in and just to see her making a sandwich and go, like, my goodness, like you've done so much and yet here you are just acting like it's a normal day, yet when I'm thinking about all of these things, it's so much more meaningful. and there's so much about her that you don't see when she's just making the sandwich that I think too often we jump to the conversation and we miss out on just the amazing aspect of being a person who's faced so much adversity and to be there today just doing your normal day is so monumental and something to be grateful for that I really appreciate you saying that because it put things I've experienced into words and something I don't think I've heard anybody else ever say. Yeah, like I'm very grateful that my dad taught me that. Yeah, I remember some of the different teachings that I received.

Like, just witnessing and observing and acknowledging that we don't see the full picture. It's like we can see a tweet, but we don't see the full person's life. We can see a snapshot. But also being taught that, like even the bits that we do see, that it should humble us enough, to find a way to honor what you've witnessed. And, like, growing up, that was, that was tough to comprehend. Like, I'm glad I received the teachings, but I, like, I struggled with, I was like, what is this

actually me. But it is something that I always carried with me and I've been learning how to how to live it more as I became an adult. But it is a tough one. Because sometimes like sometimes we can witness and observe people's lives

and see something that we've never seen before in their lives, even though we've lived with them for so long. And it may not be the words that they say. It may not be the profound academics that really challenge you. But sometimes I felt like just witnessing what I witness, it was like, huh, wow. And just feel like, okay, I can't even open the door.

I'm just going to crawl under the door. It's like I saw something so amazing. I don't even know how to deal with it right now. Like, academics never really did that for me, but watching people's lives they're just like wow like seeing like single parents

or even just like as a pastor I think one of the things that I really struggled with was when elders called me to come and help them they were struggling with where they were at and they're wanting guidance I was like, who am I?

It was like, as a 20-year-old, 30-year-old, 40-year-old is like, I barely know anything. That was always my big struggle. It was like, it was always in my heart to be a pastor, but it was like, I barely know anything of life. It was like, I've only been a parent 17 years. Like, how am I to help you being a parent? And, like, just struggling with all these different things and go.

And so I'd go and sit and do what my dad taught me was listen. Just sit there in silence. And most of the time, all I had for people were questions. because I'm still young I barely like what do I know of life I'm grateful

that I've never had any add addictions but my life has been touched by addictions that never smoked, don't drink, but my life is touched and impact by those different things. But I don't know what addictions, what that journey is. And so what can I bring to that conversation?

well not much and so I sit and listen with people and you can learn a lot of things just by being willing to understand somebody's journey and obtain a new appreciation of how to to look at something, something that we've always looked at.

We've always looked at at this perspective, but to come and look at it from different perspectives. And that's a privilege that I've had being a pastor for 20-plus years. And it was always weird to have, like, Alder's call. And it's like, I need you to help guide me. It's like, but to sit there and to again hear those teachings of aunties and uncles and to go back to them is like, I was just asked to do this. I was like, well, remember what you were taught?

And just to go, they would walk me through it all again. I was like, okay. And just go back and forth. with all that to today i can feel a bit more comfortable with it but it's always that that journey piece of there's something here for me to learn so they want to they're asking me because they want to learn something from me but i don't always have what they need i don't think yeah but it's not about me giving solutions It's just about me journeying with people.

Yeah, I think that that's really lacking for so many people because we live in such a fast-paced phone society where we don't create that space to have a full conversation where it's allowed to go wherever it needs to go because I think for so many people, they don't get two-hour, three-hour conversations with people. So they're never able to sort out all these things that they've had in their mind that they've said,

I'll deal with tomorrow and then it stacks up and up and up. And there's no one to say, let's just slow down. Let's tell me from the beginning. And let's just go through it all. And there's no rush. So we're not going to, this is going to be 15 minute coffee. We're going to just go through as long as it takes. And you just keep going. And then I'll ask questions. And it prompts them to think through the problems that they've been facing that they might have been neglecting for so long. And so I don't think it's always about having the solution. It's just letting the person, because through the podcast, I've gotten to have a few guests go, like, I didn't even realize that I made this decision because of this decision so far back, but I got to talk for so long that I was able to see those different connections in my life that I've just never had the space to share and put together for myself before. And so realizing that for the average person, they never get that voice and they never have somebody give them that full attention.

And I think as a chief and as a pastor, you set this amazing example where you're not going into it with, oh, I actually have the things. three-step program that you're going to fix your addiction next week with. It's like, let's just talk. Let's just let me learn about what you've been through. And then maybe there are steps we can take. But for the most part, it's just me being open to what the story is. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's that, yeah, because that's so much of the journey. Um, that it's, it's us together.

And that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, That's where the learning takes place. I think it's interesting, because I don't think we acknowledge it as often as we should. That we do witness and observe more than we think we do. And there are people that teach us things that we don't even acknowledge that they have taught us. because we've always kept them at such a far distance. We never really began to approach them to really begin sit and listen.

But even in those moments, we can learn so much. And so we do need to begin to acknowledge that it's taking those times to sit and have those discussions. At times I think it's funny that people are so concerned about me being a chief and a pastor or parent and like all of the different hats that I wear. It's like, well, you're so busy, I don't want to take up so much of your time.

It's like, well, my approach is it takes the time that it needs. I remember one joke It really explains a perspective that I try to have with time But there was one joke of That there There was an elder That he was holding a goat in his arms To begin

Eating its head Yeah. And so someone drove by and they had to come back and it was like, what are you doing? I'm trimming my hedge. Yeah. It's like, do you know how much time that's going to take? What's time to a goat? Yeah.

And, but that's like, yeah, like I can look at my calendar on my phone and it's just, it's crazy. Yeah. Like, meeting after meeting, and, like, I'm glad I don't have to travel. Like, COVID has helped with having Zoom meetings. It can be so hectic, but I always appreciate the chance to sit with people. And so there are times I'll just go and sit in someone's office. Just be talking away. I had no reason to go see them, other than I just wanted to be with them.

And I had no question for them. I had no tasks for them to do. I had nothing for, I didn't need anything specific other than I needed to take time to connect. And so sometimes we'll sit there and I'll be there for an hour. And it was like, then they realized like, oh yeah, my schedule.

I was like, okay, well, I'll let you get back to that, and I'll go to another office and go sit with them. And just have those life connections of, how are you doing? And just, how can I help you in your journey? Not necessarily with work. Sometimes work. But just trying to be a pastor of we're here together. We live life together. Our lives have made a connection.

Yeah. It may because of employment. It may because of an election. But I want us to make the most of the opportunity as to why are we face to face with each other. And, yeah, get to walk with people in different aspects of their lives. In family health struggles, in separation struggles, in new birth celebrations, in new birth celebrations, and in all different aspects of life. And just get that opportunity to be amazed with life again.

Because it's so busy. I can go from one call talking to one ministry to talking to the health authority, talking to federal government, and talking to families and their needs, to sometimes transitioning to a pastor. And so my hats can be constantly changing and just constantly busy.

And in the busyness, forget that all of life is seren. that all of life is sacred and to witness the ceremonies that we're in. And to get engaged in a different aspect of life. It's like there's a lot that we want to achieve for Chiao. There's so many things going on that we want to do and achieve, but it can't take away from who we want to be as well. And too often becomes either or.

And so I'll sit with people that supposed to be fighting with at the other end of the table of this is what we need, this is what we want. but still who are you where are you at in your journey how is it going and waste

half an hour hour of our meeting not doing business that we have on our agenda yeah it's like well you're still a human being I'm still a human being

we need real life connections and let's take those moments. It's like we can argue later. It's like your company or the government may defend what they want to do and this is where they're at and what they're willing to do. We can have those discussions later. But yeah, you worked with DFO.

We'll talk about fishing and your role and how you're impacting fishing and how you've mismanaged. fisheries, and we'll talk about that later. That's still going to be a discussion we're going to have, but who are you? That human element. Yeah. Yeah.

Just slow down and realize the ceremonies that we're in. And I really loved the elder taking that time to teach me that. It is like all of life is ceremony, but also, taking it from our Christian theology is like, well, theologically, we would say it this way. But remember,

culturally and in how we live life, you need to understand that it is a ceremony. That's one area that I want to learn a little bit more about because I had Eddie Gardner on the podcast, and we talked a little bit about the belief systems of indigenous culture and Christianity, because I'm, I think, similar to you, I'm trying to find those spots where I see overlap. And one that I had mentioned to him was that indigenous people have the story of the canoe and the flood

and how we all tied those together during the Great Flood. And then the Christian belief system has Noah and the Ark during the flood. And I think that that's an overlap. And then the other that I was thinking about with Eddie was the idea of the elder being very similar to like a pastor or a priest of the Christian belief system where you have life experiences, but you need somebody with knowledge and with life experience to kind of guide, what do you take out of that experience? And I thought that was really important because we'll get cut off in traffic or we'll fail a class, and then we'll try and come to our own conclusions on what that means.

And often they're very pessimistic and negative, and it's the professor's fault. It's the university's fault. It's my fault. It's I'm the problem, and maybe I shouldn't be here anymore. And you need that external person to be able to kind of say, well, maybe this needed to happen. Maybe this is going to help you. Maybe you need to retake the course with humility. Maybe you need to study.

Like, there's different ways to look at things, and I really appreciate when we can find ways that these belief systems can come together, because I agree with you. I think too often we're trying to figure out how they're different, instead of trying to figure out how they're a lot. like and how these teachings can actually just help us do better as people. And I think that the salmon ceremony has overlaps with the idea of grace and thanking each meal that you have is the same idea as a salmon ceremony and that there are way more ways that we overlap than that we differ. And so I'm interested if you have other examples or if you've seen these connections that I think so many people miss out on or they're looking for the contrasts between the

too, so they never actually see where there's beautiful overlap perhaps. Yeah. Well, just to connect to one of the things you mentioned, like kind of like the bit of the correlation between pastor and elder, I was like, my dad really challenged me on that. Like I was only in my 30s. It was like, you're an elder of the church. I was like, I'm not an elder.

He's like, no, you're an elder of the church. I was like, I had to wrestle with that. I was like, I don't agree, but okay. It was like, because elder has so much significance in an understanding of a role of an elder and what that's to mean is like, but to be told that in my 30s is like you're an elder. It's like, I'm not comfortable with that. But it's also the same struggle that I had with. I became an uncle when I was 12 years old. I was like, I'm not ready to be an uncle.

It's like I saw my uncles and it was like, I can't do that. And so I think that's a bit of the journey that we all need to take with. What are we ready to wrestle with? what are we ready to look at? And how do we find our journey with it? And like with Christianity and culture, whether it's indigenous culture or from wherever, there is that struggle of how do we journey with that?

And how do we begin appreciating what the Christian faith and what culture has to offer for life. Yeah, well, like, there's so many different things to look at in regards to Christianity and indigenous culture. So much for so many years hasn't been appreciated. of culture, like even 15, 20 years ago, Christianity in North America, and even still to today, but especially 15, 20 years ago, there was a lot of struggling

with, is it okay to drum and sing as a Christian? Because so much of it, because of the whole notion of indigenous spirituality being animistic and all the connotations that that word gives to, to that spirituality, In such a negative view, it's been such a hard journey to, within the church, within Christendom, to redefine what it means to be indigenous in a positive light. Because basically you're having to recreate what culture means. within Christianity. And so like a lot of my theological journey has been wrestling with those types of questions. And so I haven't put a lot of emphasis as to what are some of the different correlations.

Like for smudging and all of the, like even our, our stories because I want those for people to grasp those naturally and to make those connections

together as a society within the Christian community, that's how I want us to go through those. So I don't like putting those in the forefront of people as to look these are similar yeah I want people to I want them to for them to for to to dawn on them was like hey yeah and then have those organic discussions with

people and so but as as a pastor um with within our own church I like to take the bits of Halcumelam that I'm learning, and the words and the teachings behind the words. And I think that has helped me grow theoretically more than all of what Baba College could have done. Because it's so much more personal. Like the theology of Roman Catholic or Protestant church, whichever, or even Orthodox, a lot of that is so Western civilization, is grown from those cultures. And so not a lot really speak specifically to Stalo culture. And so it's a lot of wrestling with, okay, I get what Western civilization teaches about this and love, or this and family, or this and marriage, or this and taking a look at all those different aspects of what we bring together as Christian theology, Christian doctrine, and faith.

but taking what I'm learning from from Halcamaelam and how that really transforms my thinking and grows my understanding of our teachings and culture that it's really opened my eyes to look at theology differently Like even to go back to the discussion of prayer So many people when they pray They pray personally And they say I And so they talk about I pray

I ask Whatever their requests and however they may pray It's always from a position of I Me personally saying this prayer Me personally, wanting to share the desires of my heart in this prayer. And from our culture and from Halakamalam, I always pray saying we. With the understanding, especially the word Tamayok, that that word really helped frame my thinking,

but also framed my how I approach prayer. And that Tamioch is that word, the teaching of seven generations, that today in the present, that I am the real-life connection of seven generations past and seven generations into the future. That I am the connection piece of these 14 generations. And so how I live in honor of all the teachings

and our culture that I am gifted and have received today, I need to live in a way so that those are still gifted to seven generations and to the future. And so it's not just me singular. And it's not just me in this one timeline of 2021. It's me like omnipresent of that,

How I live needs to be an honor and respect of seven generations past but present within me and seven generations into the future, but present within me. And so it's from there that it's that teaching as to why I say we when I pray, that I acknowledge, that it's not just me that is praying. There are generations that have prayed long before I was born. And their prayers are still here. And their prayers are still being answered as to what was in their heart for future generations that are still yet to come.

That they had so much more in their heart that they desire to see. And I can't limit my own prayers to only what I desire to see. Because I'm still learning as to what those seven generations prior to me desired. And so then I try to take that to the future. It's like, I don't know what they're going to encounter. What will be their prayer? what's going to be their desire and what are they going to need to heal from? And so that has really transformed how I look at prayer and how I approach prayer.

And so to be present now here with you, like it goes back to my dad asking me. It's like, are you praying? I was like, well, yes. sitting here now, there's a prayer in my heart, not just for you and I, not just for those who may listen or see your podcast, but there's a prayer that has gone, that started long before you and I were born. And how are those prayers connected with us here right now? And there's going to be prayers that are continued long after we've accomplished and fulfilled what we were here to gift to this generation that future generations are going to continue praying.

How does all of that come together on a fold and create something so beautiful that we don't even know what it's going to be yet? It's like there are things that from today that are going to touch your life and my life in other people's lives, that it's going to create something so beautiful that a sunset won't even compare. And I hope I get to see it. Like, that's the prayer in my heart nowadays.

And so, like, even when I go and sit with the provincial or federal ministers, it's like, it's not just, about what I want to accomplish in this discussion. But there's so much more that my ancestors have prayed for than what I'm doing right now. How do I live in such a way that I don't close the door on what has been their desire?

How do I live in such a way that doesn't close the door of what the next generation's day? desire. And so for me, wrestling with faith and culture, that's how I try to look at it. And so it's, it's no longer just about Pentecostal church. It's no longer about Protestant church or Catholic church or Orthodox church or whatever the nomination of church that we can think of. longer about that for for us as a church well we chose the Pentecostals assemblies of Canada as a means of journeying together but also being accountable together that there are standards and expectations of churches and

And we've chose to journey with the Pentecostals, the Assemblies of Canada, to help fulfill those standards. Because we're a charitable organization. And so we do need accountability. We do need to journey with someone in that. So that's why we specifically chose a denomination. We didn't have to. But there's intentionality of how you journey together.

And so that's why we chose the path that we've chose. We don't close the door to other denominations. Like, we're all people. We all need to journey together and walk together. And so there's, it just begins to open up. so many doors to see beauty in so many places. Once we're willing to take a look at culture, perspective, and begin opening our hearts to receive the gifts that are there.

And so, like, it's exciting to see the different journey that my children have inherited than what I have as a child their age that the journey has changed over time and like one of the things I really appreciate as a pastor and how my dad had forward thinking to, to challenge how, how we do ministry, like, especially with, with funerals. In the past, it was always so, so one or the other. You either do a Christian

funeral service or you do a traditional funeral service or, or whatever all those options may be. It was always one or the other. And my dad always changed. And my dad always challenge that thought with people's healing and grieving journey are so diverse and we cannot limit the healing of having a service to just one

tradition or faith or whatever it may be and so he always had it in his heart as to whatever the family needs in order for this grieving process to be healing, that's what should take place. And so it's exciting today that the family may come and ask me to be part of their journey and to help with the funeral service.

And asking me to do a Christian funeral service. general service. But it's not just me doing from the start to the end, to the burial. I'm not doing every aspect of it anymore. I'm just doing this little piece. And creating space for all of us to journey together. And so I think it's awesome that family speakers are being called upon, that the drummers and singers to bring their gifts to the services are being called upon to be there, that all the different aspects that need to be taken care of for this journey, from the fire to the burning ceremonies, to the the wake and the funeral service to the burial,

all of those different aspects are being brought back together and just learning how to walk together and being respectful of what it means to bring healing to the moment and being willing to acknowledge that I may not have everything that they need to create a healing in this service, I may only have this little piece that they need, whether it's the prayer or the message or a song or whatever the different aspects are that bringing everyone together to heal together. And I think that's the amazing part of why I love where I'm at in the journey.

it's it isn't perfect because I know I'm not perfect but it's amazing to begin opening those doors to say learn witness engage ask questions but more importantly just journey together and to

to not be so combative in what is right and wrong. Because that's always so pinned to one perspective. But to begin looking at all the different perspectives at this one point. And then all of the other aspects that actually speak into that context to go to the bigger pictures and begin looking more and more and be amazed at at the wisdom of so many ancestors that brought us to this place that there is so much there that speaks to faith, speaks to theology,

that it will help us transform our lives. And in flourish in ways we never thought we could flourish. And I think that's the exciting part of the journey that if we're willing to open doors and say there's much I still need to learn and I'm willing to let go of what I currently have so that I can flourish and become more than I ever even thought was even possible,

it just opens so many doors for us and for others as well. because there's so much healing in that. I agree. And I'm interested to know why you think we might lose this. Because to me, the people who fought in World War I and two, they were fighting for what is today our charter and rights of freedoms, our right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion and these ideas.

And I don't see this generation appreciating at all or understanding the sacrifice, that those individuals made for them because for me, through this process of doing this podcast, I've really come to understand my grandmother's Rita Pete. I can't imagine what she went through when she was at St. Mary's

residential school. And so to me, now I have a responsibility since she did have children and then that is my mother, that I have a responsibility to her. I have a responsibility to my mom who's been through the 60 scoop to now carry the water and

to play my piece. And I'm just interested to hear your thoughts. Why do you think we lose this? Why do you think it's so easy for people? World War II was only like 70 years ago and yet it feels like so many people have completely forgotten about the teachings and the lessons of those experiences that we have a whole generation that really have a hard time understanding what that was all like. And they don't seem to have that same sense of meaning. Like to me, living in downtown Chilawak, I felt that lack of meaning, what you're talking about. I feel like it's really lacking from so many people's day-to-day lives.

It's about their iPhones, their, what job they have, what car they have. It has nothing to do with the seven generations before them or the seven generations preceding them. The only part you kind of see that is with the environmental movement and this understanding that if we continue, then there won't be an environment left for people to inhabit in the future. That seems like the only one little piece that people seem to hold on. to. But why do you think we have people who feel like their life is meaningless, even though their grandparents fought in World War II, and they've played an immense role in the development

of our civilization and the rights that we have today, that people feel like there's no meaning to life, and that I feel like the atheist movement is really growing, and people are starting to feel like there is no reason or deeper connection that we have? What do you think pulls us down these paths that seem to be so detrimental to us? I think on a personal level, it's disconnection that we do get disconnected from our stories. Like some of the interesting conversation I have, like especially with recent immigrants.

So whether they're first generation, second generation, just talking with them so much of the assumptions and presuppositions of being immigrants is to become Canadian. And so to talk with, like especially with the second, third generations, sitting and talking with those families and asking them is like, well, what do you be done with your culture? It's like, what does it mean to be Filipino? What does it mean to be wherever their ancestral background is? And for them to sit there and struggle with is like,

you know what, I've never really. an intention of keeping those connections, that there's disconnect. It wasn't on purpose to erase or to assimilate. But it was just part of an expectation of in order to thrive in this society, this is what I need to do. And so I think I think that's one aspect of it that doesn't matter who we are or where we're at in life. There's, it's so easy to be disconnected. One of the ways that I explain it to some people is that culture becomes an extracurricular activity. Like for myself, it's like, I need to go out of my way to find places to encounter Halcamaelam.

To grow in learning the language and understanding it. And it's never, it's not just here a regular part of my life. I need to go out intentionally to find it. It's a disconnect. And so if we take a look at different aspects of our lives, so much aspects of our lives that we need to be connected to are like extracurricular activities. It's just like, well, let's do this for a little while.

Yeah, like going to church once a week and then that whole idea of praying all the time every day is lost when you think, I'm going to go to church, pray, apologize for all the mistakes I made that week, and then go back to living my normal life the next Monday following. Or just at Easter or just those special times. It's challenging. And I think that's the I think that's the main thing that we need to wrestle with. What are the disconnects in our lives? And how do we become an intentional to hold on to those things? Like just looking at my own family's story. It's like my mom's family is from Squyala and Upper Nicola.

But through the Indian Act, they were disconnected. through enfranchisement that great-grandmother married a non-Indian. And so due to marriage, she immediately became non-Indian. And she took it literally, that she was no longer Indian. And so she never passed on those connections to her children. and grandchildren and great grandchildren. And so those things in our lives that create disconnections.

And we inherit those disconnections. And it's difficult finding ways to make connections when those direct individuals aren't willing to make those connections. connections for us or unable to anymore because they're no longer here physically with us. How do we make those connections? And so we need to be intentional to find ways to make those connections. So my grandmother, she needed those connections. So she was intentional. She went to find. And so she sat with aunties to learn.

the stories to learn all those things that a mother would have passed down but she literally took what the Indian Act said she was no longer Indian and so I think that's that's the challenge that that we face that we we have those disconnections some of them are inherited and some of them aren't even on our writer that we have them as disconnection that we were fully attached at one time. Some things we don't even know. And so we may have, like there's things that we do know.

There are things that we preserve in our lives and we keep those connections in place. There are things that we know that they're not part of our lives, that there is a disconnect. And so at least we have a knowledge of what we need need to find ways to make those connections. But I think the hardest part is that more and more, as the intergenerational disconnections become more and more, that the growing amount that's not even on our radar that we used to be connected has increased. and so it's not even on our radar that we need to find ways to make those connections.

And so I think if we can begin acknowledging those things and creating space in our lives, and I think sitting with people allows us to create those spaces as we sit and learn, From whomever, from any generation, we can sit and learn and realize, like, there are aspects there that they're talking in their lives. I don't have those connections. And, or there's aspects of stories that they acknowledge that they know they don't have those connections. And seeing correlations of stories that can begin opening our eyes to say, oh, that's what I'm missing. sometimes it's academics that helps open our eyes. I had the privilege of that at Prairie College,

but it helped me open my eyes to realize, that's what I was struggling with. Sometimes it's just making those social connections and developing relationships. And having a breadth of cultures, having those intercultural relationships to hear those other stories of sitting with people that grew up in the Philippines

or grew up in Thailand or grew up in Indonesia and I had the privilege at college to be able to do that it was amazing and to hear their stories say it in a different way to share their different perspective culturally. And them not realizing it's a cultural difference and struggling to make those connections. It really opens her eyes to have those breadth of encounters with people.

And so it's exciting to begin opening doors, especially for young people, to open those doors, like have these experiences. go to these different communities. Don't just go to other reserves, but go to cities and encounter different things and allow these experiences

to begin opening your eyes and heart to realize that there's a lot that we haven't encountered yet, that there's still so much more to experience, and there are so much potential within us that these open doors provide, potential to remake connections, but also potential to

to create new connections that may not have been there before. And so it's, it's, I think, approaching life and in that way to understand there are disconnects, that there are, There are many opportunities to reconnect in different ways and may not be conventional and comfortable in how we may want to begin understanding the different connections we need.

But once those doors begin to open, it opens the opportunity for healing in our own lives. And so it's, I think that's the exciting part of it. It's not an easy journey, but it opens so many exciting things. but in all honesty it could open troubling things as well and but if we're if we remain humble enough to acknowledge that there's

so much more to learn from the experience I think the excitement of life will will begin to be revived even more. And it was like, who knew aviation would open the door to so much more for me? Who knew that taking a Bachelor of Arts

and Intercultural Studies would open so many different doors for me? I was like, I never planned on being chief. But other people saw what I can bring to our community. And they saw it before I did. I want to get there. I just want to wrap this part of the conversation up with understanding what it means to believe in someone like Jesus Christ. because for me, I don't have any religious affiliations, but I can definitely see the profound value in having a role model

who is Jesus Christ, who is this person that a religion looks to as the role model of all role models, a person who never did anything wrong to others, who always reflected and prayed and was tempted, but never went down those paths. and was given the opportunities to take bad paths but chose not to who made the right sacrifices. I think that is something where right now our culture is really struggling with role models, who sets an example and how, and right now it seems like anybody who is kind of setting an example

or is getting too much in the limelight, it seems like we want to find the flaws within them. And so I think that the idea of someone like this really sets a good example that you can't You can't take away from who he was. So can you tell me what it means to believe in Jesus Christ for yourself? Well, the, like in regards to Jesus Christ and, and like the role model and like for me as an adult and even as a teen, but more of an adult, like, Going through Bible College and really wrestling with faith and theology. The story that in the Bible that really touched me was the story of Peter and two charcoal fires.

And so the first charcoal fire that he was sitting at was when he denied Christ. three times the second charcoal fire was after the death and resurrection of Christ and he appeared to to the apostles and it was again it was at a charcoal fire and it was at that moment that like prior in the Garden of Gassimini Jesus acknowledged like you you will deny me And he denied it all the way up until, oh, I did. And then he realized what he's done.

It was at the second charcoal fire. He didn't go back to, you denied me. But he took steps to restore Peter, to restore the relationship, to, to create a space for healing. And that's the piece that really spoke to me. As I worked through the scriptures, and that's a place where I really wrestled with.

Because that's, it doesn't matter who we sit and talk with, all of us have places of, healing in our lives whether we've received healing or we still need healing and so that peace really spoke so much to me that there is healing and and to find a journey where we can find places of healing you may have to have those difficult conversations, but even in those difficult conversations that there can be healing. Like one difficult conversation that I had, I was up in Terrace, B.C.

And so I spoke at a conference and spoke about my heart and desire for Christianity to wrestle with cultures and what it means to be a Christian, but also live. with cultures and being, for me, what that means, being comfortable being Stolo and being Christian and what that means culturally and theological. And so, but it was there at that conference that I got to sit with someone who attended the conference. And we're just chatting at the dinner table,

just talking about different things, and the conversation came around to residential schools. And I noticed for her, is a very uncomfortable conversation. And so just began to go back to the teachings of sitting in silence. And it just became the two of us, just sitting together. And just to acknowledge, like, this conversation is hard for you, isn't it? And it just opened the door for her.

and I really had to wrestle with what does it mean to to have opportunities of healing and restoration in whatever context that we're in and to follow that example of Christ of now as an opportunity for restoration now is an opportunity for healing

and for her this elderly woman to acknowledge that she was part of an Indian residential school administration and just her own struggles in life, the TRC and everything that, all the stories that have come out. And so to sit with someone who was part of the administration, it was like, I don't want to have this conversation, but then it was like, well, it's not about me. It's about us. And so I was like, okay.

I'm not comfortable now either, but to begin to try to figure out not to be selfish in the moment of how I want to respond to a specific individual, of whatever our story, family story is about residential schools, or even my own personal story of impacts of being disconnected to so much of culture. or whatever, all the different aspects of having a tough conversation to, okay, to listen, to be present, and to start a journey together of, let's find healing in this. And so it's, it's those difficult, journeys that we do encounter but to for me to go back to the teachings of christ that's what i

gravitate to it's those moments of healing so those moments of of yeah we can look at Christ being perfect and and living a good life living in an honorable way but isn't that isn't what I see first off what I see is how he encountered flaws how he encountered brokenness how we encountered cultures and where it was improper and taboo to have specific cross-cultural interactions and seeing those different things to, it's like, it's not about traditions, it was about healing

and bringing moments of healing. And so that's what I've really gravitated to, to Christ. And why it's become such a core part of who I am. And why I do enjoy being a pastor. because all of us have struggles, all of us have need for healing. And following Christ's example of creating moments of healing is what love is about. And oftentimes, I go away just as blessed as the other person. is like the other person has gifted so much back to me

because I get to journey with them in a new way that I never would have had an opportunity to before an aspect of their lives that they've opened up in such a way. It's just like, who am I to be entrusted with that? Some of the the deep stories that people open up with It's just, wow, it's amazing how you've gotten to where you are.

And to share the gifts of their own life with me is just like, wow. I've been entrusted with so much. It's just amazing. It's like sometimes I get lost in other people's stories. It's just like there's so much more to learn. It's like, yeah, there's trauma. But it's always amazing when they talk about those glimmers of hope and healing. It's just like, it just shines so much brighter.

It's just like, how did you get there? And so that's what I really enjoyed, like reading the Gospels and reading the life of Christ. It's just looking at those moments. of how can we create something new that brings healing in those moments and in those journeys. And to continue the journey from there, that was such a place of transformation. Because that's what healing is. It transforms something within us. And it gives a completely different answer of how do we journey from here? because it's not necessarily the same

as how we got to this point. Because now there's healing. We still carry it, but we carry it in a different way. And what is that going to look like? And so to continue journeying with people through those moments, it just,

it just opens my eyes to look differently. So that's what I've really enjoyed about being a follower of Christ, that I've learned to try to take moments with people as to, okay, what is the healing moment here? And so that's a lot of the reason why I like to just, well, the schedule can be put on hold. Let's just sit and be present

and find out what this journey brings to a moment of healing. Whether for you, for me, for someone else, it's an opportunity. And so it creates for interesting conversations, especially when it ends up being with someone that I have to sit across the table with, have tough conversations with later.

But having those reoccurring meetings and reoccurring, sitting down with people, I was like, well, before we get to that, how is your child doing? How are things going? Like, for some, it was like, I don't know why you're asking me now as to what are, like, it's weird some of the conversations that we can get into. It's like, well, nothing related to the business at hand. But it always, like even for myself, I try not to hold back to say maybe there's something that someone can draw out of me to bring me to a moment of healing. It's not necessarily my work to do for someone else. It's just being present and allowing us to journey together and create something new that we need.

never had before until we got together. So yeah, so that's a bit of my journey as to why I continue. Like, not because the history of the church and indigenous peoples. But what I've learned from Christ and his example and how I can be a better person because of it. Absolutely. And I think the reason that I think having you on is so important is because you do see the value in the teachings of it. And I think that that's something with these recent discoveries of these children. I see a lot of wrestling with whether or not religion is a good or bad or what we should do moving forward. And so I'm interested to hear your thoughts because on the discoveries and how we might be able to heal moving forward. because I feel like being on social media and seeing the divisiveness that's coming from this, I don't see a lot of people looking to heal. I see a lot of people looking to have infighting.

And I'm wondering if you have any words or thoughts that you can share with us on how we can approach this from your perspective. Yeah, well, yeah, it is an item that I've been struggling with. and I think like with the children being revealed at this time is a gift I don't know if we were ready in previous generations for this to be revealed

but it indicates to me at some level we were ready. We were ready and we need to do the work to honor these children's lives. But we also need to do the work of transformation that created the context, but also the transformation to move forward in a completely different way. And at the moment we haven't pivoted to know what direction this is going to go with. But like you mentioned, the responses are honest. There's a broad spectrum of emotions at this time. One of the sham elders said it that there is a profound sense of loss walking through our communities at this time.

And there's so much truth to that that. There's a loss of connection in so many different ways, on so many different levels for people. And it's troubling to see how some people are responding. oh wait that one's a little closer I do have a trouble not looking being a pilot yeah there are so many different ways to respond but it is troubling to see how some are responding because it It does show to a certain level how far disconnected we are as a society and how we acknowledge pain and how we acknowledge pain and how we acknowledge how we have silenced other people. and how we've disregarded people's stories.

And so for me, that's the very troubling piece. Because it says so much work that we need to do in order to find healing. Not just personally, but healing us. as a collective, has a society. Because we can look at a personal level, a family level, as a community level, nation level, country level. There's so many different levels that we can take a look at it. But I think

I think we do need to stop and acknowledge and this would apply to any story that we're disregarding to learn how to be present in someone else's pain And, like, I get asked by people so many times over the years, like, does this generation of Canadian society, do they need to, like, are they, do they need to own what happened? because are they responsible and it's a tough piece to know what what is being expected there are a lot of assumptions

there are a lot of perspectives and people are people are trying to weigh what direction do they need to go how do we journey from here and yeah we need to acknowledge we're we're not at the same place places together. And so it's such a big picture and such a very personal picture for indigenous people. It's so part of our story. It is aunties and uncles and grandparents and cousins and cousins. and cousins who've attended residential schools,

who've attended day schools. And it's even our own generation that have been part of 60's Scoop and the child and family services system. Like these, it goes back to that word, Tamioch, it is so omnipresent in our own lives that I live and carry the past within me and I live and carry the future within me. It's a struggle for people to understand how much all of this means in our lives and what it means to

how to even talk about reconciliation and how to make things right together, to do things right, to be honorable, respectful people. It, like we do need to acknowledge it. It's not just a dark history. It's still present. It's like it, it won't be history with the Indian Act, the same legislation

that created the residential school system still being in place. It's still perpetuating what has happened because that same legislation is still here. And so there's so many things that could be said of this. But to make it a bit more personal as a pastor, as a church leader, my hope and my call to the church is that we need to wrestle with our theology. because our theology says that it is the sin of the individual

that abused children in a residential school. So it gets regulated to an individual's wrongdoing. But the church being the body of Christ there's a theology that Christ cannot sin he is perfect he is without sin and so the body of Christ

the church cannot sin it is those people now that are the priests and the nuns that somehow they are removed from the church And so my call to the church and other church leaders is that we need to wrestle with that theology. It wasn't just a mistake and sin of specific individuals.

That we need to wrestle with the name of Christ and the church, the body of Christ, being part of these residential schools. and part of the system. And so personally, that's the struggle that I'm wanting the church to do. Being an indigenous church, it's tough as well. Like, people still wrestle with church

and being indigenous. And now what do I do? Like, this is a journey that people do choose, but it's an internal struggle in people. and in all honesty this has opened those struggles again for people they thought they've had answers I thought I had answers to my own struggle but I do need a struggle with it again to be honest with my theology to be honest with the faith that I carry to be honest with following Jesus Christ and what does it mean to live with this truth?

To live out the truths and teachings that I carry from the Bible, from theology, to live my faith. What do I do with this now? Where do I go from here? It's a question I constantly go back to because just like I rested on Bible College, How do I journey from here? That is the question that I constantly reevaluate where I'm at.

It's a question that I never give up asking because I don't know. And I'm learning more and more how to journey. And so as a society, this coming forward again of, of, we had the final report come out, my very first month being on council, the TRC report. And now again, like we heard the truths of the elders. They shared their stories, they shared

that this is common knowledge in our communities that there were mass grave sites. And again, now we're confronted with this truth. And as society, we need to figure out, okay, this is our immediate response, but what is our short-term and long-term response? Are we just going to revert back to our comfortableness of, okay, we got past that being in the news headlines all the time now? now I can just go on with life or is it going to actually transform how we live?

Is it going to transform how we look at our relations in society? Are we going to actually wrestle with what does reconciliation look like? Like it's it's helpful to have the observable acknowledgements

of cultures but we do need to get to wrestling with world views wrestling with those internal things that that's in a deeper layer of what cultures look like because Canadian culture and

how they relate with indigenous peoples well in all honesty isn't good and so to what level are is each individual willing to to wrestle with those things

are we just going to stick to it's like well I have indigenous friends that's good enough I'm not a racist or do we actually begin working down into it's like oh no

I might not exactly say that but if I peel back the layers enough I kind of feel that that's a bit part of me and to be to be honest at the depths of different teachings go into our lives

teachings that we've inherited and and really wrestle with those that's the struggle that I see where we're at in society is like, which way are we going to go? Are we, like, and everyone's going to have a different response. There will be people that will be, okay, get that out of the headlines so I can just go on with my life. Our family's had trauma. We've dealt with our trauma. And I'm okay

with where I'm at. Our family story, I got to where I'm at and I'm doing okay. I see a level of success of my own life and other people can achieve that and they need to do the work that people are going to respond in that way but that's going to be some people's truths and how they respond others they are struggling with they don't want the status quo and they're afraid that they may fall back into status quo or afraid that society is just going to dig the rut deeper of the status quo. And they want to help achieve a different journey forward.

So there's going to be a multitude of responses. I guess my big fear is that for some people I'm seeing, this is the nail in the coffin for people's religious beliefs. And this is it. This is the proof in the pudding that we can just get rid of religion and these institutions, and I think on one level, and I said this to Eddie Gardner, I don't see the religious practices being played out in the behavior of these individuals who committed these atrocities.

And so my call to those individuals is to actually go and learn about your belief system and your religion and understand the virtues and the values that are within your belief system and hold those true. Don't copy the bad decisions of these people and don't pay lip service to your belief because I know a lot of people who say they're Christian and almost no aspect of who they are actually plays out to be what that is supposed to be according to the Bible and according to their belief systems and the virtues that they say they hold. And so that is, I guess, one of my fears is that this is going to further distance people from faith and from belief systems as a whole. So I'm just interested in your thoughts on that from a pastor's perspective. One elder taught me this way of how to take a look at that. Was that our spirit, our body, our mind, our heart, needs to be in line.

and a lot of our troubles happen when they get out of order of each other and so they get dislocated from each other and we're no longer in alignment together just for ourselves like in the scriptures that would be called hypocrisy that's how we're living where we're not living in line with everything that, well, one with what we believe and so that's where the picture of hypocrisy comes from

that someone is a hypocrite. but we get that in all of our aspects of life not just in faith and but with faith is like yeah there's there's some people that just need to stop saying that they're a Christian because their whole life is out of line because that's something that they say they believe but they don't live it and how my current perspective of some people is that they will never live it so stop saying that you are then your life would be in line it's not where I want people to be but it's more honest

so there's that aspect we do need to be honest with where we're at And for some people, it's just like, stop saying you're a Christian and you'll be honest in how you're living. You'll be living an honest life. Will you be following the teachings of Christ? Well, maybe not. Maybe so. That's for how you want to choose how to walk your journey. But the question as to whether this is a nail in the coffin for,

for Christianity or religions. I think it's always been an issue. The revelation of these children and the mass graves is bringing it to the forefront again. But I think it's always been an issue. Even as a young person, I struggled with it and struggled with how does this even fit? Why should I choose this for myself?

And listening to our elders, listening to the church, how do I make this fit? And so it's a lifelong journey. And whether it's the Christian faith, there's a lot of problems. whether it's any other institution of society, whether it's policing, court system. Like, there's a lot of things that we can say that someone is a hypocrite. Because of a profession they've chose,

like for me as a pastor, being an indigenous person. Like, I think Mary Simon even had those accusations. Like, why would an indigenous person, become Governor General of Canada. It's like, how is that hypocrisy to choose what she's chosen? It's like, that isn't the question we should be asking. I think the better question is,

how is she going to elevate herself as a human being and the teachings and values that she carries in that position while also elevating Canada? elevating Canada. I think that's the bigger question, not just sell out a hypocrite. And so I think that's what we need to wrestle with, change the narrative of,

because the issue has always been there. The church for indigenous people, I think it will always remain a big question, something to wrestle with. especially for where it comes to family relations, where someone has made the personal decision of, this is where I'm at in my journey, and this is what works for me.

This is what helps me to live in a way to be a good person, to achieve the goodness that I desire to see in my life. And it doesn't fit for other people. And so we will be constantly asked those questions. And not because they're questioning our decision per se, but questioning how do you make it work? Because it doesn't fit for me, how you make it work. That's the question I try to answer

when people ask those questions of me. Because I think that's more of what they're trying to ask. It's like, I figured out a way that, I think for myself, I'm in alignment in how I'm living my life's journey. Not perfect, but I think, I hope I'm not a hypocrite. And I'm trying to live in a way to not be a hypocrite. And so someone else's perspective, someone else's assumptions and presuppositions, that's what I'm wrestling with.

Yeah. Questions for them. I've answered the questions for myself. How do I give an answer for them so they can be comfortable with what I've chosen? So they can be comfortable with how we're going to journey together in life. Like, we never may get on the same page together as to, okay, your decision was good for you. It works for you. and it may never be an answer for them

because that's their life journey that they need to make and I just get the privilege to walk with them and challenge each other's lives and what that looks like so I think for for society that's the direction I want us to to go in in the dialogue of people will make their decisions as to what will bring them healing.

What will allow them to flourish in life and see the gifts that they bring to this life. Each one needs to make their choice in that. For me, following Christ has been part of my answer. I'm still learning through my journey what all of the answer is because life continues. And there are different aspects in my life that I need to learn more and more and grow more. I thought it was interesting for a while there because when I got on council

I was like okay I need to be with the people where the people are at and so I went to one of the men in our community and just asked them as like I'm wrestling with this I need to figure out what to do with this historically

I always felt it was never acceptable for me as a Christian person to go into the Longhouse to attend those sessions because it always felt that we were pushed out in turn because the church also pushed native spirituality out and so it was a reciprocal action

and so I actually had a go talk to someone in our community. I was like, this is where I'm at. But to, to be a council member, I felt I needed to, I need to open that door and be willing to attend in the winter at the Longhouse, to be present, to be with the people, to, partly to help dispel some of the understandings of me being a Christian, me being a pastor, and through the church

in wanting to convert the world to Christianity, that that isn't my heart here, that she am, that I believe Christianity has gifts to bring healing into people's lives. And being a follower of Jesus Christ is a big part of that for me.

but I still want to be open with where people are at in their journeys that the Longhouse helps them in their journey to be a better person and that's amazing and there are gifts that all of our teachings give us whether it's a sermon from a pulpit in a church or from the dirt floor of the longhouse or sitting in chairs by the river or wherever there's so much teachings to come out to enrich our lives and so for a while there I heard a lot of conversations come back around to me that there's a pastor that attends the Chiam Longhouse and I wrestle with that for a while. I was like, I don't want it to become that. But it's not about

a divide. But I just wanted to be about relating together. And but I also had to acknowledge, like, well, I can't always take off my pastor had for people that never works. Just like I can't take off

the chief hat or the dad hat. It's always a part of our lives. Absolutely. Can you tell us a little bit about being chief now, what that's like, but also this development and the other development that's also trying to bring out about a proposal? Yeah. Well, I'm very grateful that had a couple terms being a council member, just seeing what's going on politically, nationally, provincially, locally, but also the desires of our people, how we

want to flourish, and what that looks like, family-wise, socially-wise, how we fit in society, and what that means for rights and title and what economics means for for chiom and like I I bring my teachings and values to it

my faith is part of who I am and everything I do and so I bring that to the table with me and so I bring the basic teaching of my dad like all of life is ceremony you sitting at that table it's a ceremony and you need to be praying and so it's it's a huge job and it's one that's one that it's a real privilege to be elected to have the trust of the people to move things forward in a good way

to make progress aspects of it is a lot like being a pastor of being with people, listening to people, and journeying together. That's a big part of it. Other aspects of it are, can be overwhelming. the responsibility is given and what it means to to make a decision on behalf of so many people and to wrestle with is that the right decision to wrestle with do we have all the information needed to make the decision.

And to wrestle with even after making the decision, oh, no, I didn't think of this part. And acknowledging that decisions aren't always final. That decisions are our journeys. And it's okay to make shifts in the decisions in the journey. It's been a very good learning opportunity as to what it means for other people for chief and council and the decisions that get made and the direction to go in for a community for a community. So it carries those challenges and learning to work through those challenges. I think that the biggest struggle for me on a regular basis is wrestling with so many thoughts, so many so many perspectives.

And because when I break it down to basics, it feels like a lot of the times when I break it down to different conversations and perspectives a lot of times it feels like it always goes back to failure it was like oh did did I fail as a leader yeah or or whatever those struggles may be it feels like a lot of those questions point back to those things that when people ask questions where things are at? What are the decisions being made? What is the hope and vision and direction? And did you get a mandate to do that? And like all of those different things of what it means to to be part of chief and counsel. And really wrestling with how to respond with lateral kindness in the

midst of all those questions because people need to know and people have the right to know what's going on as chair members and we don't have it right yet how to communicate such a breadth of information as to everything that's going on at the council table and so trying to to bridge those gaps and trying to find ways to do that. And so that things aren't, like the work that the council is doing, that it isn't just held in suspect. But so that people can be comfortable that we are journeying this together. And I think for me as chief,

That's the biggest piece I want to bridge as chief. That I may be elected and have a fiduciary duty and responsibility in my role, but I don't do it alone. That I do go sit with elders. I do go and talk to the members and listen to the church. children and youth and and have those phone calls or Zoom sessions with people and just talk what is the big picture that we see and but also what is the real life picture of what does this mean to you what isn't on my radar that this decision means to you and

and trying to make sure that I wrestle with all those aspects so that I can come to an informed decision, but also come to a place of, okay, we need to communicate this and communicate in this fashion and look at it different ways as to, so that we can see that together our goal is to flourish together. that we're not leaving anyone behind but that we're going together. And so that's my hope and vision as being on council

that I want to see in the membership from all generations that they're part of this journey, that they have a sense, say in what's going on and that they are creating the vision for our future and relying upon the ancient wisdom and so needing to create spaces to connect with that and but i think one of the challenges is that it's so fast-paced. So many things come to our table and needing immediate responses. But getting emails, like, I need you response in one week or otherwise we're going to do

this. Yeah. It's like, do you know how many other emails I get to me before I even get to yours? And the one week may even lapse before I even open it. And just dealing with all those different dynamics like so many so many like it is so fast-paced like I sit with some of the people have been on council before me and they they talk to me it's like what you have now I never had it's like they're glad they never had email let alone trying to figure out how to to use a computer and it but it's just like the dynamics of what happens at those tables have changed but the heart and vision hasn't but how to how to work together and in such a fast moving pace is it's so difficult and then trying to find those places to to rest yeah say okay we we don't

have to rush to do a right let's take the time to to get people on board together so that people don't feel like things are done in secret, but we're doing this together. Because when we leave certain people out or all people out, that's how people will feel that everything is done in secret, that there are hidden agendas going on. but when you sit at the table together and really wrestle with this is what my auntie said

this is what your family said this is what my family said like all these like we bring because all of us on council we talk with family it's a family endeavor we talk with our community and so we come with all these different conversations already. And then we have our discussions together. Well, this is what my uncle said. Well, this is what grandpa said. This is what, remember, someone isn't here anymore, but this is what they said years ago. And speaking to trying to bring all those things together is like, it isn't just

about my own agenda. I was like, I may have a vision as to what I want to see in governance. and how I personally see how to achieve those things. But still, it's relying upon with those that have gone before us have done. I was like, I sit there sometimes and it's like, like, it's mind-boggling to, to be called the chief. by someone who was chief before me. Like to me, like I wrestle with that. It's like, how am I carrying on the work that you've done? And to be honest in acknowledging that I don't even know everything that you wrestled with.

I know certain things that they've accomplished. But I've never seen everything that they fought for. And how I have inherited gifts from them and the things that we're still struggling with. And to try to find ways so that there's continuance in what they've done. And so there's so many different things that I look at and wrestle with and question myself on. and but it's always going back to that struggle of okay this is where we got now how do we continue from here and and i really want to to make it a community journey again um because i think the Indian Act has has moved us away from that and industry moves us away from that they

they're they're used to just well it's a regulatory process to get a yes what are all the check marks that I need to get a yes well that's not a community journey yeah is that what you experience with this gondola project uh More so, like more so with the Kinnemorgan Trans Mountain project. Like that was my first month on council. I was like I got thrown into Kinnamorgan Trans Mountain discussions. And so a lot of that process I saw, yes. It was just help us to get to a community saying yes.

I was like, well, we're starting from a position of no. So how do you want a yes? it was like that's work you need to do it's not what I need so yeah it's really interesting but the the gondola project that was a very different process and

appreciated how the company approached it very differently than Transmountain Transmountain was just we're here this is our project and we can do everything that we need to do in order to get a permit from the federal government

that we are going to get a yes that this is going to go through and so that's the context that that whole conversation was and can never get them to see a different perspective of a project but for when when we were approached on the gondola project Like, my guard went up. It was like, oh, great, here's another one. But they came very different. It was more of a humble approach of sharing, this is our vision, but fully acknowledged that this is your traditional charity.

This is your backyard. And specifically coming to Chan because the core of it was fully in our territory. Like we have overlaps of the Paloat tribe territory, the Choyic tribe territory. Like we have overlaps of territories of our communities. But they fully acknowledged that the core of the project was going to be in the Chiam and Palat Territory. So they came to us and it was like, if we can't get you on board, then what's the point? And so better yet, we don't just want you to provide consent to the project. We want you to be partners in the project.

And how can we have discussions to get Chiam to a place of this is a good project for Chiam? And we want to be part of it in the whole thing. And so that's how they came to us. And so it was refreshing coming out of the Kind of Morgan Trans Mountain discussions and we're still in that context right now of that whole situation. But to come to this project to the Cascade Skyline-Galleled project, it was like it was very refreshing. and to be able to sit at that table and to have those tough discussions, it's like, that's not going to work for us.

And didn't like it, push back, but then they would still go away and come back. It's like, okay, we heard you. Let's make those adjustments. And so they took the visions that we had that aligned with what they had. Our vision to, that we, like, for years, we acknowledge that there are aspects in our territory that it's just a free-for-all. Anything and everything can happen, and there's nothing regulating it. And the backcountry was part of it. Like, there's impacts to our culture that's happening right now.

and we don't have a say in it we don't have any way to put how we want to protect it without having to go and lobby the government to make it happen and that takes generations to achieve and so part of the project because seeing the impacts

to the back-com country and seeing the impacts to the cultural sites is heartbreaking. And so this project was one way that we saw a way to put protections in place. That yes, acknowledge that people want to enjoy where we live. And that's a bit of what I teach my own children. children. Let's go out where our ancestors used to be and enjoy life. And begin looking at different places, like, what do you think our ancestors did there? Let's find a way to get there, be present, and try to look at it from a different perspective. And, but also, well,

let's go listen to some stories as to what did our people used to do there and try to find ways to make those connections and so I think this project is part of that vision as well

that's not just on a family scale but on a society scale as to well let's teach Stalo culture let's teach the importance of this land and bring people to where our ancestors used to be and enjoy it

and find the peace and healing that we need by disconnecting from the busyness. Let's get out of our homes. Let's get out of our little screens. Let's get out of our vehicles and music and enjoy the sounds of the land and creation around us. So that's as a bit of the vision as to why we're able to work and become partners in the company. And being able to say that this is our project, that it's not just a proponent coming and we're giving consent,

but we're fully part of saying yes or no to what happens there. And so we're having conversations with other. other communities. It's like the door is open. You can have a say as to what's going to be created here. Our vision is to for the project to be permitted and to move forward and to be successful in it. But we're still in the process to achieve that. The other mountain resort project has thrown a curveball out of us that we never saw coming and I don't think the province saw it coming either and so the province is trying to figure out okay we have two projects in

an exact same location what do we do how do we find a way forward did they approach you at all or your not in like there there was like it's the same project that was pitched more than a decade ago some of the same players and so Chams had no those many years ago and so it wasn't we heard some rumors about it

but it wasn't really on our radar that is okay they're wanting to revive this and so it was partway through we already had agreement with a with a Ghana project that yes we're going to be partners in it that we started getting some push back on some people that, no, don't do that project,

let's revive this project. And it's like, well, no, we didn't want a mountain resort before. And what we have fits within the values that we want to see. Is there anything that people can do to support the project that you're actually partners in to show their support for this one instead of? of the mountain resort or do you think that there's any concern that the other would be able to win out well i think the process is wanting to be fair to say that uh to the province is trying not to be biased as to one project over the other they're trying to go they're

completely two different projects um jams is primarily going through like a tourism process the other goes through more of like forestry and lands like because it's a land development project so it has a completely different process there are at earlier stages than we are but because they are overlapping they do need comments from different levels of government different organizations but also from citizens that the province wants to hear from citizens as well as to what do they envision for the community that they live in. And so that definitely needs to,

people need to be aware that the province does want to hear from them. And so whether that's encouraging their local government or MLAs to help encourage one way or the other, or neither, whatever positions people may have, so that their voice is heard. So not just from the elected officials, not just from employees of the different organizations, but directly from them as citizens. So, yeah, so Chiam is very interested to hear what citizens of Chiluac and the surrounding communities have to say, first nations, communities, and otherwise.

So what the collective voice has to say needs to be part of the vision forward. What we've developed so far, I think, is a great vision. We're wanting to mitigate impacts, wanting to have a lesser footprint of human activity and allowing the ecosystem to flourish. even more that's that's our heart that's our vision and direction with with the project I I think the other projects that they're they're doing their best to uphold similar values obviously they're gonna have to make different decisions because it's a development project and so their decision processes

will take them further as to where we will see that it will cause greater impacts but they're going to have to balance how they're going to mitigate those impacts and so can fully appreciate the decisions and the work that they're putting into it and can respect them for for how they're they're conducting themselves as a company to put a project forward appreciate their approach that they're they're wanting to find a way how to in an era of Andrip and B.C. having the declaration, what does consent look like in this new era? Yeah. Like, they don't have it figured out yet. I asked them direct questions and it was like, well, we're still figuring it out and can appreciate that. It's a new way of doing business. And a lot of

of new engagement needs to happen to figure out what does consent mean. And for Chiam, it's like, well, we already have a strong position of no. So how does that fit within your model of consent? It's like, your path of two gondolas going up the mountain, we're fully saying no. A couple of their phases are directly in Chiam-Palalt territory. We're fully saying no. Some of their project is in the shared Choyic and Pallalt territories. We're still fully saying no.

How does that fit in with your model of what you want consent to look like? And so they're wrestling through that and can appreciate them doing that to that work? I hope they're listening as to how the people, not just the chiefs and councils, want consent to look like for a project on any scale, whether it's ours or theirs, looks like. And so we're struggling with the same questions ourselves. Because me as a chief is like,

I don't just expect the federal government or provincial government or proponents to honor free power and informed consent. I get elders and members asking me you're elected as chief and counsel.

What is free power and informed consent to the rest of the members? And so it's something that I need to wrestle with on all levels. And so this project is one of those things that we need to wrestle with.

what does consent look like? Yeah. And how do we journey together in that? Right. And so it's exciting times. Like for our project, we're really excited for what we can accomplish. We're having more discussions with some of our Pallalt neighbors, but also stall all neighbors as to what does economic partnership look like in this?

What does equity partnership look like? on this together, let's bring as many people on board together as we can. And I think, like, for myself, as we enter into these discussions, we want to be as creative as we can be. We want to be as innovative as possible. And bringing as many stallo to the table as we can opens the door even more and more to make sure that we are achieving that. that we're achieving the best potential that we can with a project like this.

And who knows? Maybe our Stalo neighbors and relatives will say no. And they'll become to a point of we'll have to respect that. But if they do say yes, and I hope they say yes and come alongside and be part of it, because that would be awesome to do together. Beautiful. Can you please tell us what your shirt means and what your necklace means? Just briefly. Well, these were just two gifts that I was given. So this year was gifted to me by a fellow council member.

Stephanie Ferdat, she's on council with me this term. She gifted this to me. She started doing some artisan work and creating jewelry and so just following teachings she was giving her first work away and so this was one of the things that she gifted in in that and so when when she gifted to me she said it had to do with I forget what she said it was but just part of that that teaching of, that it takes upon itself, what the burdens, the struggles. So that personally, we don't have to carry it. And so that was one of the things

that I really appreciated from that. And so I worked often just to, as a physical reminder of those teachings and the, what, the gift meant as well. And so there are different things as well. Some things that you don't see that I do carry around with me, that I was gifted by different people of what it meant as to why they gave it to me.

And so that's why I carry some of those things in my pocket still with me. There's a star that I was given and just about shining bright. And there's notes that I was given just. one from from one of my children of just continue working hard for the people and all those different things that then like this shirt was was a gift from my parents and just to for me to to wear it's just to continue to acknowledge that they're present that it's not just me and so that's the personalness that that that I bring to it that's why I chose it today that um just acknowledging that some of the story that I'm going to share is not just my own story

some of it is going to be my parents story and so I wanted them to be to be present to for me to have that physical reminder that they are present with me yeah and that I'm I'm wrapped in their law and that there are things that I'm still carrying that I want to see in a different light and a new healing and a family healing together so that's a little bit of what I carry and what I have with me yeah Andrew I really enjoyed this conversation I think that you approach things with an immense amount of honesty and you work hard to make sure that everything you do aligns with your values and the teachings that you've been given throughout your life. And I think that that really came through in that conversation.

And I think that this is hopefully a light for a lot of people to consider how they can move forward in a different directions and actually look to their friends and family for teachings on how to live a good life and how to live it meaningfully. Because I think you also show the immense amount of weight that you carry in trying to live that out. that out and that it isn't always an easy process and it's easy to be pulled in different directions. It's an everyday, every moment process to try and hold on to that and to keep those teachings alive through conversations and the idea that you're praying all the time and trying to find a way to make that fit with your day-to-day. I think that's a huge example for people to be more conscious and aware of where they are and who they're with and think

about how they're responding. So I really appreciate you being willing to take the time to share your family stories because I understand that those aren't just ours we're sharing it from other people's lenses and so I really appreciate you being willing to take the time and share so much important information that I hope people got a lot out of this conversation because we just did about three and a half hours oh is that all yes so thank you again yeah well thank you I really enjoyed it Thank you.