Nuanced. - 282. Seamus O'Regan: What Was It Like Serving as Minister Under Justin Trudeau?

Episode Date: October 7, 2026

Former Natural Resources Minister Seamus O’Regan discusses Alberta separatism, oil and gas, Justin Trudeau’s legacy, Mark Carney’s pipeline approach, Indigenous reconciliation and media bias with host Chief Aaron Pete.Send us Fan MailSupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

I've Seamus O'Regan. I've been a journalist. I've been in a number of portfolios in the Trudeau government. How much freedom do you have to take things in the direction you think need to be taken? Well, it's exhilarating. I miss it. There's nothing quite like it. You're sitting around the cabinet table of greatest country on earth, a G7 country, making decisions of national consequence, international consequence is it's exhilarating work. Do you put the responsibility for the discussion around Alberta separatism to the previous liberal government? I think what we did wrong is we just made them feel marginalized or put down. Hey, you shouldn't be, this is a bad industry.

It's dirty jobs. This stuff. It ticked off a lot of people. I sell it to here at home in Alberta and Saskatchewan and I did my level best to change the tone. Here's a tough question for you then. You, Christia Freeland and Evan Solomon, all moved from journalism into liberal politics. Can you understand why that pattern makes some Canadians wonder, whether newsrooms lean more liberal?

Yeah, I think it's too easy to do that. I mean, there's lots of lawyers who enter politics, too, lots of businessmen who enter politics. But I don't necessarily think that, you know, all business people are conservatives. Even though a lot of them do go to the conservative party, but a lot of also go to the liberal party. I'd be remiss if I didn't ask about the former prime minister,

Justin Trudeau. What criticisms do you think are valid about his approach? Shamus O'Regan, thank you very much for being willing to join us today. It's an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Would you mind briefly introducing yourself for listeners? Yeah, sure. Seamus O'Regan, I was born in St. John's, where I'm talking to you from now, but was raised in Labrador, and there's a big difference.

And I always point out that difference, because they're very different places in Newfoundland and Labrador. And the first people I met when I, my dad and I got off the boat were the, some senior members of the Innu Nation back in 1984. And I joke that, you know, St. John's in the 1980s, my idea of multiculturalism or diversity was Protestants. Like, it was, it's pretty white. St. Johns has changed a lot.

So really, it resonated with me. And anyway, I've been a journalist. I have worked in government and most recently held titles of Minister of Veterans Affairs, Minister of Indigenous Services, Minister of Natural Resources, Minister of Labor, and Minister for Seniors. So I've been in a number of portfolios in the Trudeau government, and I resigned two years ago after 10 years serving as a member of parliament. Well, luckily, there's nothing to discuss on any of those files to get your kind of comments on.

I'd be first interested to know, Mark Carney is moving ahead with a new West Coast pipeline. Having served as Natural Resources Minister, as you mentioned, under Justin Trudeau, do you see this as a continuation of your government's previous approach or as a significant pivot away from that approach? No, no, it's completely in line with what we were doing as government. You know, from the get-go, the prime minister had said that he believed that, you know, there should be a pipeline. You know, this is from when we were first elected. But it proved to be a little more difficult than we had thought. And some of that was on us as a federal government.

We hadn't consulted properly. And you had a federal court of appeal decision. I was Minister of Indigenous Services newly minted. And I had to visit a number of First Nations who were on the route for TMX. And let me tell you, it wasn't pretty. I mean, the reason why that route is kind of jagged is because for the original route, for TMX, for the Trans Mountain Pipeline, for the original route, they deliberately went through First Nations territory and avoided.

ranchers lands so they didn't have to pay money. So you can imagine how popular I was as the new Minister of Indigenous Services visiting those same nations and picking at those scouts. But, you know, the difference now, it will very different. And I think what you'll see is, you know, equity positions now for those, for those First Nations who are, whose territory is affected, who are on the route or who are adjacent to the route. You know, equity and ownership, this is very, very, very different.

I'm very proud of that legacy that we've opened that up. Very proud and happy that the current government will continue in that tradition. May I ask, with great humility, there's a lot of comments from individuals now like Premier Doug Ford, Premier Daniel Smith, that are kind of celebrating this new, this suggested new approach by Prime Minister Mark Carney and pivoting from their perspective away from the time of Justin Trudeau. What do you think they're missing or do you think that they're hitting the next? on the head when they're kind of, Premier Daniel Smith just made the comment, we're finally moving away from Stephen Giebaud's kind of approach to Canada's natural resources. What are they misunderstanding or getting right? No, I don't. I mean, I think, you know, some of what we did worked and some of it didn't.

whenever you talk about energy in this country and the environment and people who are close to natural resource extraction, the people who are very proud of working in those industries, and people who are, I usually find people who are further away who are critical of some of the downsides of those industries, which is emissions, you know, And in a time of climate change, that is something that we're not just mindful of, but we're, you know, we're driving towards towards lowering emissions. That tension's always going to exist. It will always exist.

But it became particularly pointed for sure. I mean, when I became natural resources minister, that every liberal had been kicked out of Alberta and Saskatchewan. And so, you know, who wouldn't want to be a natural resources minister in charge of oil a gas? and pipelines, etc. at that moment, I couldn't believe it. Friends of mine in media and politics also said the same thing. They were like, we thought he was your friend,

being the prime minister. It was a tough assignment. But I took my knocks, and I also, you know, Newfoundland, a large portion of my constituents when I was the member of parliament here, they worked on the offshore oil rigs here. We are an oil producing province. That's why he named me Natural Resources Minister.

And then a lot of my other constituents are on planes every single day, fired from Newfoundland to Alberta and Saskatchewan to work in the oil fields, as they have done for decades. So oil has changed our problems. It saved us from an environmental and economic disaster with the extinction of the northern cod. At that time, they became an endangered species. They are back now, which is amazing. but it, you know, we had a real problem, you know, the equivalent of every, of every car plant in Ontario

shutting down at once. And the reason why we lived here, which was caught. So I had a very different position on oil and that, but no less determined to figure out how we lower emissions. But one of the things we didn't get right, Aaron, and I kept doing it, but as a government as a whole, you have so many people who worked in the oil and gas industry who were extremely proud of what they have done and should be because as I put it to them and to anybody who will listen to me speak, you know, three generations ago, we asked people out Saskatchewan and Alberta workers to figure out how to get oil out of sand. Wow. We went from, did they ever do that? We went from like, I don't know, 30 something, you know, an oil producer, to the number four oil producer of the world.

that's because of them. And out my way here, I wrote, in fact, it was right in front of this building that I'm in right now. I was director of policy to the premier of the day, Brian Tobin back in the late 90s. And we had just gotten first oil from Hibernia, the biggest and still one of the best platforms that are out there. And I can tell you writing that speech for Premier Tobin,

which he didn't get if he never actually used my speeches, but he enjoyed where he was reading them. But we didn't know what we were doing. But we thought we would learn. And boy, did we ever. I mean, ExxonMobil, biggest oil company in the world,

says that there's no harsher environment that they operate in than offshore Newfoundland. It is tough, and we figured out how to do it. So I think what's really important is if you are driven to lower emissions

and to do better by the environment, then for God's sake, don't tick off the very people who can actually affect that change. Because people who talk about lowering emissions do not know what bolts to screw and tighten on a pipeline to prevent methane from leaking. But they do. And so I think what we did wrong is we just made them feel marginalized or put down. Hey, you shouldn't be, this is a bad industry.

It's dirty jobs, this stuff. It ticked off a lot of people. I settled to here at home in Alberta and Saskatchewan and I did my level best to change the tone. So now that still exists today. I mean, I think you're seeing a sea change. I don't think it's a coincidence that, you know, you're seeing a shifting of gears because the prime minister is now Burton.

He's the fourth Albertan to become prime minister. He appreciates the people who work in the industry. He has a deep, deep knowledge of oil and gas, natural. resources, extractive industries, mining. You know, he's got a very dear friend of his that he has put in as an natural resources minister who understands the markets, who understands, and they are just demonstrating pride in these industries. And so I'm delighted to see that, because we need to keep people on side.

And at the same time, they've done other things. I think that really kind of offset some of this in terms of emissions and green energy. I mean, here, and we could talk about adenosia, I could talk about it ad nauseum there. let me tell you. Churchill Falls here, which the Prime Minister of Flewman a couple of months ago to announce, is the biggest green energy project in North American history. It is the biggest investment at $70 billion, the biggest investment in Canadian history. They will produce enough power to heat, light, and cool every home in Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver combined. That is a, astonishing, 18 Hoover dams. And we're going to do it right in partnership with the Indian nation.

And this is going to happen in my back errant in Guse Bay Labrador where I grew up. So, you know, there are many ways to go about this. I think, you know, what can I say? I'm on the big fan of how the prime minister and Minister Hodgson are handling these files. May I ask, we kind of spoke briefly about Alberta there. Yeah. What are your thoughts on the Premier Smith puts the discussion around Alberta separatism to the previous government and connects the two pretty significantly. It sounds like you acknowledge that there's a relationship between how the previous liberal government and Alberta operated with each other and there wasn't that relationship. It sounds like you were trying to keep that relationship a bit stronger. Do you put the responsibility for the discussion around Alberta separatism to the previous liberal government?

Well, I mean, there were certainly things that we did that made. didn't make it feel good. And I think, you know, not demonstrating pride for people in the industry and, you know, doing quite the opposite, sometimes being, you know, finger pointing. And having a tone that was kind of pious, I don't think that that works.

I don't think people like being told what to do, and I don't think they like being told at what they do do for a living and they're passionate about it. People who are in the industry, very passionate about it. I mean, for God's sake, they call their hockey team the oil. I mean, so it's an identity thing, right?

And when you're dealing with pride and identity, you've got to treat people with dignity. And I think you're seeing that happen now, and I think that that will have a, I'm hoping it will have a big effect on the vote that we will see coming out of Alberta. I really do. I'm frankly, you know, for people who were involved

in these really important industries, and they are incredibly important, not just to Alberta and Saskatchewan, but to the whole country. You know, it is a C change, but it's a change of tone, too. That's what I think is, gets, you know, you could look at the roster of all the projects and that sort of stuff. It's more than just that. It's how we're talking about it.

It's telling people in Alberta who are involved in the industry, well done. Well done. We asked you to do something and you do it. But, you know, we also, now we need you to help this industry evolve and you need to figure out of our emissions to make a higher quality product. And we need to get more of that out of the world because the world, trusts us and knows that we are a secure supply of energy. So I'm hoping that we'll all have a very positive effect. Alberta is such a central part of this country.

I can't even imagine this country without Alberta. But we need to express that. We need to make sure that people know that and understand that, how much we care. Certainly in this province, the ties between Newfoundland and Labrador and Alberta run very deep. And, you know, you have people going back and forth, working in this industry all the time, every plane I get on.

And I tell you, I'm so proud, as I said, this industry has evolved in the auctionary industry in my lifetime. I mean, I wrote the speech for the Premier for First Oil. And now I get on a plane and I'm sitting next to some guy and I'll say, hey, where are you going? It's like, oh, yeah, I'm heading to Mozambique, heading to Mongolia, show them how it's done. I'm like, this is amazing. Good for you. That's just incredible.

So yeah, yeah. I'm, you know, please God, this all goes very well. And I think there are a lot of Albertans who are impressed with this government and see, you know, you got an Albertan. And once again, as prime minister, you know, you had one. I think it was Bennett was the first. Joe Clark, very brief amount of time, Stephen Harper and Elmar Kearney. And I don't think it's coincidental. I'll just make one other point there because it's kind of fundamental of everything that we've just been discussing.

I really, I would make this argument all the time to my Kaptna colleagues and to my caucus colleagues, that proximity matters. You know, it's not a coincidence that so many people in Alberta were close to the industry, or First Nations for that matter. I mean, I go to the Assembly First Nations and when I would give a speech in front of their gatherings, my God. I mean, it was like a brawl. And it wasn't coincidental that, you know, a lot of people who appreciated the oil industry and wanted to see further growth were from Alberta and Saskatchew.

Not all. Some aren't. And some are, you know, harsh critics. And rightfully so. But many are. And I think proximity matters. Like if I look outside my ministerial office here in St. John's, it was right above, you know, four, six, seven supply vessels hanging out to the rigs, you know, filled with men and equipment. And I would see that every day.

So when you have proximity, that matters. And, you know, it's not a coincidence that people, And larger cities are often very, you know, very harsh critics of natural resource industries in this country. They're not close to them. So, you know, they don't, they don't see the effect. And so, you know, you have to, you have to, if you are not within proximity of those resources, then at least understand the perspective of those who are and attempt to learn, right? people in Calgary, Eminton, rural Alberta,

Saskatchew, they see the benefits. So they're reminded it of it every day of its importance. And many people in this country aren't because they live in big cities and you just not think about where your electricity comes from,

you know, or where your heat comes from. So anyway, I think, I think it's amazing. I do not want our natural resource industries to be a point of polarization that would drive this country apart.

Like that. That I worked. very, very hard, you know, to make sure that that didn't happen. When I became natural resources minister, a mutual friend of mine and Sonia Savage's, and Sonia was the Minister of Energy in Alberta at the time. This was this seven years ago. And I had just been sworn in, you know, and did that. And I was just kind of lingering. And I, you know, then we all go out from media and we take questions. And Sonia said, hey, you know, our friend gave me your number. So I thought I text you and say, congratulations and when are you coming to Alberta?

And I said, how's tomorrow? I just answered on my own. And then everybody found out by Mr. Hoffitz and everybody and they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And I went, no, no, no. This is the job. This is the job. I have to be seen to go out there right away.

We just, every liberal had been kicked out of Alberta and Saskatchewan, this was a time to build bridges. This was the time to get together and to learn and to be seen learning. and Sonia and I became incredible friends. We saw each other through so much in almost three years I was Natural Resources Minister. We saw each other through a lot, namely COVID, and how we handle, you know,

all those essential workers that continued to work in our energy industries. When all of us were, you know, scared to death and staying at home, they went out there. I've never forgotten that. And I really felt the responsibility of that at the time. So, yeah, you've got to, you know, you've got to do those things. and you've got to be seen doing those things. It's too important to this country,

these industries, way too important. And one last thing I would say, too, was I was actually mentioning this at a Canada 2020 event. I was at in Ottawa earlier this week, that when I became Natural Resources Minister, having spent so much time at table, at two levels of government with First Nations and Inuit, many communities in this country,

I joked that when I became natural resources, resources minister, we should rename it, the Ministry of Indigenous Economic Development. Because in fact, there's nothing happening in this country in terms of natural resources, almost without exception, without the participation in partnership with First Nations and, and many communities. And that's huge. I'm really taken aback by your candidness and your kind of honesty on what took place in the past. and I would just be really interested to hear your reflection on the work you did during that period and what it's like behind the scenes being in government, being a minister.

What is it actually that like? Because I think a lot of Canadians feel frustration about the process and about not having certain questions answered or having fears not addressed. And I would just be really interested to know from your perspective, what is it like to be a minister, a part of a government? How much freedom do you have to take things in the direction? you think need to be taken? How often are you sitting there going, I don't love this decision or I don't agree with this, but I'm part of this government? Like, could you just share what it's like to be a part of government? Well, it's exhilarating. I miss it.

There's nothing quite like it. The fact that you, you know, you're sitting around the cabinet table of greatest country on earth, a G7 country, making decisions of national consequence, international consequence is, it's exhilarating work. something that I had, you know, hoped to do my whole adult life. I didn't know if I would necessarily get into elected politics, but I knew how much I loved policy and leader of communications. And if you really want to, you know, affect policy and use communications in order to achieve that,

you can't be politics. That's amazing. I still do quite a bit of it in the work that I do now behind, which is also kind of behind the scenes, but I would say it is, yeah, it's exhilarating. It's, it's not for everybody. It's exhausting, and it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, very, there's no escape. You know, if I, I, well, I will come home here every weekend and, you know,

somebody's always going to make a comment, usually positive, to be honest, I, I'm, I was very lucky, uh, sometimes very, very harsh and very negative, but there's no escaping it. the work. And yeah, you, everything that I just told you, and, you know, I appreciate that you acknowledge I'm candid, but everything I said to you now was something, were things that I would say as a minister. It doesn't change. And, you know, I would say with great confidence and sometimes wondered, oh, well, because it did sometimes go against the prevalent messaging from our government. Never did, though. And I just continue to. And I just continue to to call it as I saw it.

Yeah, there is a, there is always, there is some tension. I think, again, you know, you, you're, you soak in the tension. There will always be tension on these issues. And they, you know, they, the, we spent an awful lot of time working on them. And, you know, you would try and keep things professional. And for the most part, to be honest, they were even behind the scenes. They could get, the arguments could get quite spirited. I don't think, um, you know,

of my cat in a college of caucus colleagues would have described me as a wallflower. I'm outspoken. And that was my job. And you have to do what I find, you know, people see the theater of the House of Commons. I don't miss the House of Commons. House of Commons is, when I was growing up, everyone would bemoan the sound bite, you know, it's all about sound bites and getting that snappy, you know, seven second answer or whatever, and seven second answer.

you're reduced to like two or three seconds. But what's even worse, Aaron, is that everybody has their own YouTube channel. And everybody's speaking, every MP in the house is speaking to the YouTube channel. And so everyone's kind of saying the same things. So now, not only did I

find it extremely polarizing and sometimes just venomous, but it was also repetitive. Incredibly repetitive. Mainly the conservatives, I would say, but, liberals would do

to sometimes just the same stuff the same stuff, the same stuff, the same stuff repeated from that MP to that MP to that MP to that MP but in the cabinet room and the caucus room those are places where people you know that they are broadcast you're not allowed to bring your songs in

for that reason and that's when the rubber hits the road and I love those rhymes by I miss those rooms. That's where, you know, you really work on policy. You know, the Liberal Party has always been a big tent, and you have MPs first and foremost from every part of the country.

And again, as I described to you, those people with proximity to issues feel very passionate about those issues. They're close to them. But that does not stop other people, you know, from weighing in, whether it be oil and gas or hydroelectricity or indigenous rights or whatever. You know, you're always good, and they are entitled to those views, even though they may not have proximity to these issues. They are entitled to them. And so you think about that. That's a big room. All liberal MPs, that's the caucus room. I was very disciplined about how we use the caucus room to make the arguments we needed to make to get the support we needed to have to change things and to push our things forward, our priorities forward. So I would convene our Newfoundland and Labrador, liberal MPs. We would hammer out what our priorities are. And then we would enter Atlanta caucus on the way every Wednesday morning, 8 a.m.

I hate mornings, but 8 a.m. And we would, you know, within Atlanta caucus, make our arguments there. And then laser-like, Atlanta caucus was small but mighty. And all the other, all the other caucuses from, you know, BC and Ontario. They're all big and unwieldy. But we were smaller and laser-focused. And we would go into the national caucus meeting with the prime minister. and no bureaucrats and nobody was just us.

And that's where you, you know, you laid it out. And you really, you know, you saw some great arguments. It was terrific. And then there's the cabinet process, right? Where you have cabinet committees and meeting and key chambers outside of the cabinet room and then going in the cabinet room and making those arguments. And that's where, you know, you make so big decisions. So, yeah, that part that people, you know, people don't see.

But if you're in government, those are crucial rooms. crucial rooms and you know I enjoyed it I enjoyed making my case I enjoyed making my arguments I enjoyed tearing down

other arguments I enjoyed somewhat no I was about saying I enjoyed losing no I never enjoyed losing and I enjoy winning yeah

I'd be remiss if I didn't ask about the former prime minister Justin Trudeau you mentioned you two were friends and I'm sure you've seen it. There's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of negativity around the former prime minister. And I'll first say it's true of every prime minister who leaves office that there is a period of time after. I mean,

I remember the, uh, the, the hatred for Stephen Harper after he left, right? So this isn't, um, on one party line or the other. No. But there's, I think, I think people are becoming nostalgic of Stephen Harper now and his approach, uh, because of how people, uh, because of how people, Pierre Pollyev has struggled to make headway in the polls and kind of gone, wow, like maybe he wasn't so bad. And we did have a balanced budget. And then you see these kind of circulations of Justin Trudeau saying the budget will balance itself in 2015. And we didn't really have a balanced budget with Hartford was. Correct. And so I'm just wondering, is there something different about how you think Justin Trudeau's legacy will be remembered? I think the big one for me that he cemented his legacy on is likely reconciliation will likely never see spending like that again in the future.

Even with the Prime Minister Mark Carney, he's making some changes on how he wants to approach reconciliation. So how do you think Canadians should think about his tenure as Prime Minister? What criticisms do you think are valid about his approach? And I'd be very curious, going into those rooms advocating, I don't think we ever got to see that side of him on deliberating and decision-making around those things as publicly he would come out with a decision. But I'd just be interested. How do you think he took some of your pitches when you'd go into caucus and come out with an approach, a recommendation to the prime minister?

What was he thinking about how did he kind of take in your information? That's a really good question. And I can't reveal too much because what goes on in caucus and cabinet particularly cannot be spoken of. First of all, you know, and I can understand people, you know, are looking for opposite. So, you know, I'll have people, you know, say to me, oh, my God, it's just so good to have a, you know, a prime minister who's in there now, who's disciplined. And I'm like, I got to be honest. Until I met Mark Carney, the most disciplined man, I have ever met my life as Justin Trudeau. And he is, like, unbelievably disciplined. You know, discipline about, you know, what time he goes to bed. It goes to panic, like 10 o'clock. He gets his sleep. He, he, you know, he watches what he eats. He, he exercises every day, and he's disciplined about his time. And he taught me that. I wasn't very good at any of those things. And he taught me how, you know, the only way that you could survive in the

incredibly hectic and intense world politics was to be super disciplined. And, you know, I think Mark takes that next level. And it's probably not a coincidence that, you know, you have prime ministers who are very good at maintaining discipline in their lives. And also in order to make sure that they spend the time with their family. Both of these, you know, both of these prime ministers have children. I think Prime Minister Carney's children are slightly older. But, you know, you've kids and you're married and you have to, you know, you've got to maintain that. And so I think, I think there's that. I think, I think you're right. I mean, you know, Justin and I, when we first met back in 2001, we really bonded over our passion about reconciliation.

and really bonded over. It was a huge passion of his. It was a huge passion of mine growing up in Labrador, having worked with the provincial government at table. You know, when I met the Inu, when we first moved to Goose Bay, Labrador, my dad, I was just kind of aghast me people who were so different.

And my dad did a really, really amazing thing. The next day, while my brain was still racing, he took me to Shachachashid, which is in the inner community, 45 minutes away from me. Goose Bay. And I didn't know that that kind of poverty could exist in this country. And of course, I've been in many communities since, years later, as indigenous services minister, especially. And, you know, that gap is still huge. You're right. I think that,

I think, I think the prime minister will be, Prime Minister Trudeau will be remembered for a number of things. First of all, you know, even though he doesn't have the reputation for it, we're about the only G7 country left with a AAA credit rating. I could tell you, having served in that cabinet and a treasury board for many years, that was a line we would never cross. And other countries have crossed it. And so you're paying out more money and interest payments than you are, you know, for the things that really do matter.

And, you know, for COVID, I don't think anybody goes through, I don't think any country, comparable country, did as well as we did, as hard as it was. It's not even easy for me to say that because it was just such an awful, here it is. But, you know, it wasn't our fault. It was a pandemic. Nobody did better coming out of it than Canada did. So I think he is to, you know, he should be remembered for that. And also, you know, how he handled the first Trump administration and getting Kuzna signed was a big deal.

Like, we just thought it was, I thought this is the biggest thing I'll ever have been a part of my life. because we you know much like as we feel now we're just we're just like oh what's happening and now things are different now because we know once burned twice shy and so now you know i think Canadians are of a different mindset and and and and kearney Mark Carney is the man for this moment no question um yeah so i think but one of the big one of the biggest issues biggest most fundamental issues where i think we did make significant progress was on the issue of reconciliation. He took it seriously. He spent time at it. And we have, I think, come a long way. We still have a long way to go. I always say. But my gosh, my biggest concern,

and it was a concern, I did my master's dissertation on indigenous participation in large-scale natural resource development of Canada. That was 99 at Grinchwaived. So a long time ago, 27 years ago. And the issue then was one of the things I concluded was we have to, you know, we have to work like capacity. So capacity and community capacity of First Nations governments and intimate government, some Aiti governments, you know, how they, they, it's capacity. Back then, you know, it was inevitably some, you know, one 36-year-old woman with, you know, four or five kids trying to keep it all together, trying to keep the community together. It's usually that administrator, you know, that the woman who's in the bad office invariably seemed to me to be a woman. It didn't get much better. Now, unfortunately, you know, on the capacity issue over the years, and we did things the way that they should be done, you know.

we would come in and, you know, and it was for a short period of time when I was Indigenous Services Minister was me. You come to community and you're like, you know what, we're not telling you, we're not telling you where to build the roads. You tell us where to build the roads and you go ahead and you build them and, you know, we'll help you start a construction companies. Oh, well, we're not going to tell you where the fire station should go. You're going to do that. Oh, you're going to build a new school and you're going to develop the curriculum. Oh, and water. Yeah, look, you've, you've, we're going to give you the resources,

you're going to train the people, and we're going to get you water, and all of these things. It's still one person. You know, I mean, it's not just one, but, you know, for small communities, this was a lot.

And so capacity will still be an issue that we have to do with. And it's not an easy issue to deal with. You know, one of the challenges that we have, and it's a challenge shared with many rural communities right across the country, is that, you know, the best and brightest get cherry picked, and they go to university, and they don't come back, right?

Because, and, you know, fair play. I mean, you know, you make, make the decisions in your life, but they go to big cities and with all the promise and the great work, sometimes they fall in love and get married. And then before you know, you've got three kids, and you're living in Saskatchewan, or Saskatoon, or you're living in Calgary, Redmondton, or, you know, and you're not, you're not, and you might go home now and again and some, I've seen some who have gone back and some have who, uh, have gone back full time and some who have gone back part time or, or fine ways to contribute. So that, I think that's what's changed now is that, um, we're before when young people left for other opportunities, they didn't think that they, there would ever be opportunity in their communities. And now they see that there's opportunity. You know, whether it be, you know, economic development, you know, you know,

family through natural resource development. This is real now, and it's happening. And I, you know, Prime Minister Carney gets it, and he understands that that's how we build in this country. And that's, you know, as you know, this is, uh, is mantra, right? I mean, build Canada strong. Well, we build in this country, um,

particularly in natural resource development, we build it with First Nations, with Inuit, with meeting. And he understands that. May I ask, this is a bit off topic from where we just were, but I am a huge fan of Corner Gas. I grew up watching it. I've had on Brent Butt, Lauren, and a bunch of the other of the task members. And I'm just wondering, you and Beverly Thompson appeared in Corner Gas on the episode Go For It. How did that come about? What was that experience like? Can you take me back there?

I'll answer the question and I'll have to put the blind down here because this Newfoundland sun is just following me everywhere. It's just, I can't believe it. Yeah, I can't remember whose idea was. It was probably Brett and Nancy, so I would imagine. And, you know, we just shot it. I was kind of ticked because I didn't get to visit the set.

They came to us with, you know, Nancy at one point, you know, filling in for Beth. and I just thought that I did such an amazing job. I'm just kind of walking up behind her with this glare. Like what the hell is Nancy, you know, doing in my chair? Anyway, it was, here's the thing, Aaron, I did 10 years of Canada a.m. All right? So three hours, every morning, five days a week, 15 hours of television.

Every week, four weeks a month, 12 months of the year for 10 years. thousands of hours. I do four minutes on corner gas and that is what I'm known for. It is amazing. It is amazing. That show is so popular

and it's repeated and I I'm quite chuffed actually. I think it was, I love the show. I loved, I got to know them, you know,

backstage, I guess, as it were because they'd always come on the show to promote because we were all CTV. They would come on Canada at a all the time

to promote the show and people just lots of them. So it was a great gift. With a great gift, I just can't feel a leaf. After all those hours of Canada a.m., just those few minutes on Corner Gas, and I still get, hey, you're a buddy from Corner Gas. May I ask on that note, it feels like the world has changed so much since Canada A.m.

I grew up watching you, and that was like a staple. And we had, as a society, we had certain staples in our culture. That was one of them. look at Canada TV now and like the morning shows and the night shows. And maybe it's just because I don't watch them as much, but they just have less folksy kind of connected to everyday people. As I'm sure you're aware, there's a lot of fear and skepticism around legacy media now because of some of those subsidies.

I just spoke to Andrew Coyne, who's a journalist with the Globe and Mayo and is regularly on CBC. Yeah. And he admits that like, like, yeah. Yeah. And he says like, hey, I've lost trust in credibility. because we're getting these subsidies, which makes it look like I'm shilling for the liberals. And that's the kind of sense that people have.

Pierre Paulyev wants to defund the CVC. And there's just a lot more rhetoric around these things than when you were on TV. And like, I just feel like it wasn't in the zeitgeist. It wasn't a thought when we'd wake up and watch morning TV that there was any bias or there was any disconnect. And I just, I feel like that piece, corner gas, these things that made Canadians feel like they were watching something made for them is sort of shifted and changed a fair bit. And I'm wondering, do you see the same thing? Or am I just a cynical, a 30-year-old? You do not strike me

as cynical. And I didn't know your age until now. You're a... My goodness. No, I don't, I mean, I understand Andrew's arguments. I don't think that most people are paying attention to that. I think that you, you know, as you go on X, yeah, I mean, people are talking about that, but X is such a small... I don't go on X. And I certainly have to look at it. I certainly have to look at that replies in years, so I don't know, like 10 years. I post now and again. But that's really, most people on this country, you know, understands, like many, many other countries in the world,

governments have to have to help out media. And I don't think that that's an issue. And I think you could put things in place to make sure that there's not. We, I mean, I did that show, you know, for 10 years. I was never told what I couldn't, couldn't do. I certainly couldn't say, well, we've got, you know, word from on high. We can't lose their subsidies, so be kind to the government. No, I, you know, I was there initially with, I'm thinking now, you know,

initially with the Martin government, you know, which some of them like me, some of them didn't like me. Harper government, some of them like me, some of them didn't like me. You know, and that's fine. You just deal with it. that is everybody was kind of ticked off with me and you know in those political corners then I thought maybe I was doing my job but you know nobody

nobody ever told me that and I do not believe it and I think there are only so many people out there a very small minority to think well okay so if they take the check then that's going to dictate now I don't see I think the bigger danger as you said you don't watch morning television anymore

most people don't watch morning television anymore that's what to watch them And so the bigger concern for me is we're only watching the news that we want to watch. So we're only, you know, watching the news that we're given, news that, you know, affirms our political viewpoints, affirms our opinions, but doesn't challenge them in a substantial way, you know, in a meaningful way, not in a, you know, shouting way. But, but, but, but, but, but really, really good policy debate. And, you know, and it does concern me that we really rely on our, you know, we really rely on our, democracy on kind of on on certain touchstones right i mean certain things that we can all agree on and then you know there was something to be said for waking up in the morning and watching our show

knowing that millions of other Canadians were watching it too and we knew that often we would dictate how the news unfolded for the day you know just because people would watch us and whatever stories we ran with because we're the first show right in our morning show would often dictate the rest of the day in the news so we know we took that responsibility um you know We understood that responsibility, and we respected it. But when people aren't watching the same news, it causes me great concern. And then I'm surprised, you know, as I have been surprised by Canadian's reactions to Donald Trump since he started the 51st state nonsense. I'm just, I'm so proud of this country and I'm so proud of Canadians.

I just, you know, I really don't mean that in a part of it. in way. But one-third of Canadians change the vote in that last federal election. One-third. It is so in the United States, nobody changes their vote. You know, so like, it's just so polarized. But here, if people are given a good argument and if, in our case, the leader changes to a very different sort of leader, and a leader, you know, I think most Canadians would agree is uniquely suited to the times that we are in and the challenges that we face. And I, I, you know, I think he's doing an outstanding job. But, you know, Canadians were ahead of him.

And I think he would say that too. Yes, said it, I'm sure. Canadians already knew the seriousness of this moment. And we have to, you know, fundamentally change how we govern and we change our economic development. We have to change lots of things, how we look upon the world. And I think a lot of this is very positive stuff. Stuff I'm very, very happy to see. I wish it was under better circumstances.

I wish the, you know, the U.S. government had not turned their back on us. But, you know, just to belabor that point, I can also tell you that, you know, somebody who worked through the first Trump administration and was, you know, saw when President Biden got and then had got in that, hey, we would have somebody to, you know, and for the most part, look, we don't along great. I mean, I remember that first initial meeting just after the, the president had been sworn in and named his cabinet

and there were a few of us who met with him and I got to meet Pete Buttigieg and that was all online because it was COVID, but I was so thrilled to meet Kamal Harrison, be able to chat with her, be able to chat with Pete Buttigieg and everything. But you know what? They didn't drop the tariffs.

They didn't drop the tariffs. So this is a prominent condition. They are going to be relying more on the revenue that they get from those tariffs. because their deficit debt is just spiraling out of control. They need the money. So, you know, I think Canadians almost instinctively know that. I think they almost instinctively know that.

And so you're seeing fundamental things happen in this country. Such as back to, you know, the earlier part of our conversation, Aaron, even in British Columbia, a majority of people in BC are now in favor of a pipeline. Yeah. and that's because things have changed. We need to get our product to market. And we have to diversify away from the United States. And this pipeline is a huge part of that.

We get full price for our oil in Newfoundland because we're in tide water. We don't have to get to tide water. We're producing that oil in tide water. So we get full Brent pricing. Alberta hasn't for decades, right, because it only goes to one customer. So this is a big deal. This is a big deal. And the fact that you've seen Canadians rally around that,

some more enthusiastically than others, I would acknowledge. But even in BC, a majority of now say, yeah, this is what we need to do. We need to do this as a country. So it's anyway, so that's a big surprise to me, is that even though we don't have those, you know, those cornerstones, like watching the same news every night or in the morning show in the morning, so that we have those kind of common reference points. We don't have that anymore.

Everybody's watching their own news on this. And, you know, that's a concern for me. But then Canadians surprise me in. They seem to, you know, get enough from the news that they need to make big decisions. And we're making big decisions right now. I'm very happy to see you. Okay. Here's a tough question for you then.

you, Christia Freeland and Evan Solomon, all moved from journalism into liberal politics. Can you understand why that pattern makes some Canadians wonder whether newsrooms lean more liberal? Yeah, but I think it's too easy to do that. I mean, there's lots of lawyers who enter politics too, lots of businessmen who enter politics, but I don't necessarily think that, you know, all business people are conservatives, right? even though a lot of them do go to the conservative party, but a lot of also go to the liberal party. Yeah, I would never read too much into that.

Look, you know, I look at Christont-Chryon and Marilyn Gladder, who are not liberals. You know, you keep it a big tent. And even, you know, between Evan and Christia and I, we probably would agree on some things, but we would probably also disagree on some other things. I think it's more of a reflection of the fact that the Liberal Party is a big tent party, and I really think that the Conservative Party also has to become a big tent party again.

I think it's really important that we have two strong national big tent parties in this country so that Canadians can move from one to the other. You had mentioned Prime Minister Harper before, and one of the things I was incredibly happy to see was that he ended the investment summit in Toronto. I'm not even, you know, you said very nice things about the prime minister and the direction of the government, and I'm happy for that. But it was more, it was the act because, you know, what you're seeing now are investors who are questioning the United States, as the prime minister said, you know, for agreements are written in pencil. And what the prime minister wanted to demonstrate was that regardless of who is in power, this is the direction we need to take our country, an outward, confident country, open for business to the world.

That is one of the things that, you know, I'm old enough to remember the 1988 free trade agreement election. That Brian Mulerney won, but it was incredibly divisive in this country. And then by the time, you know, by the time Kretchen gets in, he's starting NAFTA. and building on NAFTA. Sorry, Prime Minister Brian Mulrini was NAFTA but Kretchen built on it.

Martin built on it. Harper built on it. Trudeau built on it. And, you know, we trade more probably in almost any other nation in the world. And that's the sort of confidence we need. And when Stephen Harper gets up there

at the end of the Investment Summit, what he's signaling is, regardless of who's in, this is who we are, make deals, with us, we will keep and honor those deals. And that was hugely important. So big tent, you know, I, uh, there, again, the arguments, the, oh, the sugarative bloodletting

that went on within caucus meetings. Um, there's, you know, there's not, there is no, uh, it is big tent, which means you have a lot of people with different ideas from different parts of this country. I just want to see two parties like that again. I really want to see that for the conservatives as well. I'll just share with you that, yes, I think that was a monumental moment for a lot of reasons. We try with this show to have on people who are liberals, who are NDP, who are green, across the spectrum, to hear all of the perspectives.

And that's like one of the biggest compliments I get is like, hey, I listen to this person. I don't agree with them politically, but I listen because I need to hear perspectives that differ from my own. That's like the biggest compliment I could. ever receive. Here, hear. And I have, I do my best to try and address the root concerns that I hear from particularly conservatives right now just because like obviously people who are liberal or NDP are more aligned with what's going on.

So they have less, less outward criticisms. And so that's why I try and put some of these questions to you is to address those fears in the room, address the, like, maybe they are fringe minority views, but they still have a place in our society. And the more we can show that we're addressing them, the calmer and the cooler the temperature can be. And I think Stephen Harper doing that was the biggest owed to like, we need to remain Canada first and we need to try and stick together. We may disagree vehemently and we should and we should not stop that, but we need to take kind of a consistent approach. And I was very surprised to see him there. I watched that speech and was just like,

there's something important for our country to see a prime minister that I think across the board, people now respect. Obviously, after you're a prime minister, people have a lot of criticisms and frustrations and they're very excited to transition to a liberal government. But now looking back, I think we can go, oh, wow, the budgets were basically balanced and things were functioning and our healthcare system was mostly functioning. And so I think that did something for a future that just allowed conservatives to go, okay, if Stephen Harper is going to say this is worthwhile and that we should hear these arguments out, then maybe I should. And I just, I felt like it addressed something important because we do have this Alberta separatism. We do have these

conservatives who feel like Canada isn't working for them anymore. And that just did something for them that I just felt was really important and just bringing our country together in a way that in some ways sometimes we feel more divided than ever before. But I think that's because we're disagreeing and trying to challenge ideas in a way maybe we weren't doing 10, 20, 30 years ago. There was more of a monotone culture where we all kind of agreed on the general. general path forward and now there's more debate and disagreement because the situation and the problems and the issues are bigger than we've ever experienced. And so we need to disagree and challenge each other in order to try and find the best path forward. I couldn't agree with you more.

Absolutely. Yeah. And thank you for having this as a vehicle for that, right? Because they are lucky people that you are willing to join. Well, and I will tell people to join now too because I think your questions are quite pointed and I enjoy that a great deal. But also I hear you completely, we have to value opinions, even opinions that we do not agree with, even opinions we really, zeman, we do not agree with. You have to respect them. And the problem is people get extremely emotional and are given to, you know, things like, you know, supporting separating Alberta from the rest of the country. Like, my God, you know, but that often

comes from, you know, indignity. It comes from not, not treating people well and not respecting them, not respecting what they do, not respecting the fields that they work in, not respecting their identity. This is what happens. We can't have that happen. The people who are very close to the prime minister, uh, telling me, as is the case, I think with every prime minister,

but, you know, it's just that it's important to know this about Mark herney, I think, because we just always associate him with, the economy. I mean,

he's a central banker for Canada, central banker for England. But he wakes up every morning and goes to bed every night thinking about national internet, as it should be, as it should be for, for anybody who's leading this country. We are such a big country.

I mean, six time zones. Six time zones. You know, when I fly to, from St. John's to Calgary, and that's a direct flight. If you could get that one to a daily direct on WestJet, it's six hours. But there's daily directs from West Ched from St. John's to Dublin. Four hours. Paris, four hours. Wow.

Paris is four hours from St. John's, and it's three and a half hours to Toronto. It's a big country, right? And so keeping it together, making sure that we have places where we can argue sensibly, civilly, really important, really important. This country is constant work, constant work. And look what we've created. Greatest country on the planet. No question.

And people really see us now, you know, in that, like, which is amazing. is having a moment internationally right now, right we're in the middle of doing so much work here at home, we're going to be okay, we're going to be really, we're going to be okay, you know, there's going to be some hard days ahead and the Prime Minister keeps bringing that up, but we're doing a lot right right now. You've worked in national television, cabinet, and now public affairs advising. What do you say to Canadians who feel the same small circle moves between those worlds, while ordinary people struggle to be heard.

I don't know. I mean, I would say I always think of my path as being somewhat erratic. I didn't, there was nothing easy about the paths that I took. And I know maybe it appears that way to people. There aren't many Newfoundlanders to think of themselves as members of an elite. Let me tell you. Right. I certainly don't.

I did go to, you know, I went to good schools. I worked hard and when opportunities presented themselves, I took them. That's how I got into national television, how I became a journalist. It wasn't something I planned on, but it was an incredible opportunity. And I made the most of it. I think I did my job well. And then politics is service, you know? It comes around and I decided to take the leap.

all big leaks. So I know that there's some people who just see it as I'll look at the elites moving from one to the other and it looks so easy. There was nothing easy about the path that I took. And even now, you know, what I do now in advising people on how to deal with government, advising people on how to get their things, get their projects built, get things done, how you how you deal with First Nations, all of these things. That's knowledge that I've learned. And, you know, thankfully there's a market for that knowledge. And, you know, you could provide some help for people and make a living for yourself. So I'm pretty chuffed about that.

I make no apologies about it. But, you know, in terms of, you know, how I started in journalism, I had to start from scratch. And, you know, very quickly got a pretty great assignment that you saw, you know, every morning. I worked very hard to get that job. And then, you know, in politics, I had to work my way up just. like everybody else. I was a backbencher for two years and eventually, you know, made it my way into cabinet and then held my position at cabinet. That's never a given. Once you get out there, you're not going to, you're going to have always have it. That's not how it goes. It's a constant

job review. So, you know, I don't know what else to say about that, Aaron. I think that if you want to see the world that way, it's just like a bunch of elites who move around, then that is how you will see the world. But it is not my experience. every one of these things I had to work extremely hard for. May I ask, you I'm sure have a great career ahead of you still, but what do you hope based on those two massive experiences that Canadians could only imagine what it's like to one being on TV every day for 10 years, but then two to shape government policy,

what do you hope your legacy is? Well, first of foremost, I don't know if it's first of foremost, It's certainly very important to me, and that is, you know, I never saw it in my life's time that you could be gay and married. I'm married 16 years now and flourished in politics, and it's not an issue. That's incredible. So, you know, and I've had a number of young people and their parents

who have told me how important that was to them. and I'm very grateful for that. So that will be part of my legacy, I hope. It's so, I mean, everyone just kind of takes it for granted now, but I'm a 55-year-old man. I don't take any of this for granted. It's not a day that goes by, but I'm so grateful that I live in the country that I live in,

in the times that I live in, so that I can just be free to be happy and free to be with the person who else. I mean, that's fairly basic, and nobody even bats an eye at it now, really, for the most part. Man, oh, man, that was not always the case in my lifetime. And once you've acquired a right in your lifetime, you never take it for granted.

You know, I did the shows on Canada, you know, about, you know, the first, the battle for gay marriage equality, the first ones that happened. It happened before my eyes. And then I eventually came to terms of the fact that I was gay and I met someone and I and I deserve bad happiness. I guess if I was going to add anything else, I think, you know, I have, I continue to work a lot

towards reconciliation. I'm very passionate about the Trichael Falls project here. I started working on it with Brian Tobin when he was premier and I was a policy director. And I've seconded over to the high. to work on his proposal at the time and that he worked on with Lucien Bouchard, who was involved in the last Quebec referendum and then became a Premier of Quebec. Anyway, they came up with a deal. And I remember saying to Brian, Brian was very progressive on what we call then Aboriginal issues.

But I remember saying to him, what about the Innu? And he's like, no, we'll get to them. We will. Let's do the deal with Quebec. And then we'll sit down with the Innu. Well, the Innu had other ideas. And so when we went to Churchill Falls with satellite trucks to broadcast us to the world, I'd been working on a PowerPoint presentation that was going to go on CNN and BBC and

the union who just unplugged all the trucks very peacefully and surrounded us in a house on the banks of the Churchill River. And I did give that PowerPoint presentation on a bed sheet to the National Press Gallery. But I'd been accepted to do my master's at that point and hadn't come up with a dissertation topic. but came up with indigenous participation and large-scale resource development in Canada with the Lower Churchill and Churchill Falls projects as my example because I had lived it. And 28 years later, you know, we were down on the St. John's Waterfront with the two premiers and the prime minister and the Innu and signed the biggest,

biggest deal in Canadian history. So I'm, you know, I've worked hard on it behind the scenes. and I worked hard ahead of, you know, but very publicly, when it during my time in government. And the moment's here, you know. I worked hard, one of his minister of veterans affairs,

Aaron, I worked very hard to bring back a lifetime pension. We were able to bring that back. I grew up in a military base in Labrador, my brother's a veteran. We were able to bring back a education and training benefit, you know, that you can even get up to $72,000 to do whatever you want to do with your life.

When I went to Indigenous services, it was to lock in child and family services, which is one of the most important pieces of legislation to be passed in my lifetime. Giving back to First Nations and Inuit Métis communities. Giving back to them the ability and the white to be able to look after their children. It was massive. Natural resources. We got pipelines built. and out here my way,

because smaller provinces have to fight harder, I was able to get about $9 billion in funding for the provincial government here through some pretty tough economic times. So you just jail, Minister of Laborer was able to bring in a ban on scats, ban on replacement workers, something that the labor movement

had been calling for since before Canada was a country. and we got it done. So, you know, I was, I was throwing some pretty tough assignments. I made the most of them. I worked hard, and we were able to get some good stuff done. And if at the end of the day, you know, the repataph is he did his best, I'll take that. I'll take that.

But the most important thing is that you inspire and that you make a difference, a real difference in people's lives. And I worked very hard to do that. How can people follow your work? Oh, how can people follow my work? I post sparingly to social media, but I'm trying to get back into the habit. I have always posted and written my own stuff, even as a cabinet minister, which sometimes back things up because you're very busy.

But I really, you know, when I was a young political assistant, there was no social media. There was no internet. And, you know, I would fax a press release to the Labradorian newspaper in Goose Bay Labrador, Bert Pomeroy, who's now the mayor of Goose Bay, an old friend. And I would hope to God, Bert would show up at the events that my boss, the Minister of Justice, would attend, my God. And hopefully he would take a picture. Did he remember bring his camera? Because that was the only way you could communicate what, you know, a politician was doing.

So every time I post, I never take it for granted. I can speak directly to my constituents and to the world at large and have my own voice. And people would say that they could tell it with me. So good, because it is me. I write all my own stuff. I just think that that's such a wonderful thing that you're able to speak directly to people. I take my, you know, I approve the pictures. If I don't take them myself, I crop them.

I'm very hands on. So yeah, anyway, please follow me on social media. The things I care about, I still speak about and we'll continue to work on. I really appreciate this conversation and I'll say for a few reasons. One, I mentioned that you were candid, but I just think you're also very authentic. And I'll be sincere that I've interviewed a lot of politicians now, federally and provincially. And one of the things that I find the most frustrating is that some politicians think that

following their speaking notes is a good strategy to stay out of hot water and it is, but there's something so disheartening when you speak to somebody and they don't know how to respond because they're not prepared with a speaking note about how they grew up or what their values are or how they think about issues or who they are as a human being. And I always try and pull that out because another way we avoid polarization is remembering we're all just people. And And we hope that the people we elect are representative of our community and the values we all share within that community. And I just find that to be very much the case and something you've demonstrated throughout this conversation is that you are who you are based on how you grew up in your community, based on the values that they instilled in you. And you carried that through each chapter of your life and viewed each chance to shape something as an opportunity and didn't let the world around you,

decide who you were going to be. And I think that's just really important for us to remember because you hold such responsible positions in your life, whether you're in a ministerial role or in a job, and just reminding people that we're all just people trying to do the best that we can is so important. But being willing to share, which I think some politicians view as a risk, is something they end up avoiding, and then the conversation becomes somewhat soulless and lacks something for everyday people. And then they just get skeptical and disconnected from the process. And I just found you to be very honest and sincere in this conversation.

And we're exactly the person I grew up watching and were exactly the person I saw on stage. And I just, I think that that's just important for us to be able to connect with throughout this process. So I really appreciate your approach to all of the questions you answered today. And just, just how you approach your life in general. I appreciate that. I would say, you know, morning television is such a gift. It's a very vulnerable time in people's days. One of the things you learn from morning television, I mean, it's just such an exhausting time of the day.

People are, you know, very vulnerable. And so, you know, they're open to that kind of attachment, that relationship with the people who are on air. And our job, everyone would comment how, well, we all got along well. And we did get along well, very well, with fierce friends, Bev Marcy Jeff and me. Bev missed your best in peace. But we worked at that. We worked hard at it.

We were four very different people, and our job was to get along and to make people's mornings more enjoyable. And so we worked at it. And in that process, we became great friends. And in that process, the chemistry became easier. But it was really, it was unbeknownst to me, I wasn't conscious of the fact that I wanted to get into elected politics. But man, what a training ground, you know, because you can't just read off the teleprompter for three bloody hours.

Like, it's just, you got to make it up as you go along. All my questions were, you know, generally my own question. So many honest I was, you know, talking to William Shatner about all brand recipes. Then, you know, I knew that I had to go to the next, the stuffed peppers, you know, like, there's certain things you have to do. But, but it's a great gift because. you learn how hone your message. Every interview that we did was like three, three and a half minutes. So you had to learn how to hone your message and people want authenticity.

And at that hour of the day, you don't have the energy to fake it. Like you got to be who you are. That's for it. And so you find that balance, you know. Initially, I got to tell you, I did not have an easy time of it initially in politics. I just thought maybe if I answer questions the way I want to questions answered by politicians to a journalist. That didn't always necessarily work because even though I really do appreciate what you said

about authenticity and I do work hard at that and I'm very flattered when people say it, but appreciative because I work at it. But, you know, it's when I, what you say can affect prime minister, it can affect a government. It can affect your colleagues. You know, so you have to watch what you say. You have to be mindful. You have to be cautious in some respect, but you can't appear that way. And there is a sweet spot that I attempted to find where I would be very candid with people,

but I didn't want to get anybody else in trouble. And I found that, right? I did find out. Also, you don't have to be on media all the time. You know, invariably my team would say to me, well, we need you to go on. Dave Cocker or Vasi or Vasi or you know what I'd say well let's do risk reward here I don't know we would weigh it but I had done TV for so long I was a climbering to be on TV all the time I wanted to keep working and working away so I would be very strategic and when I went on

I wanted to make sure I knew my stuff inside and out so that I could tell those stories so that I was not reading enough talking points and that I was confident in my hands and that I was confident into my answers. And if I didn't know the answer, I didn't mind saying I didn't know the answer, but I'd get back to the answer. Anyway, all that's say, I appreciate that. That's, uh, I work hard to find that because I think it's, it is important. People need to know these are human beings and not automatrons that they are electing. And that, you know, and then understand, that makes them valuable, makes them, they have faults, the emotions, um, But I'm going to tell you, from all strikes,

some of the best and most extraordinary people I've met my life have been in politics. Elected officials, not just in the House of Commons, but provincial legislatures, ban councils. There are a lot of really good people. Politicians get a bad rap, but the good ones way outnumbered bad. There's a lot of good people right across this country, city councils, town councils,

working endless hours to make the country better. I take inspiration from them. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for being willing to join us today. Ah, Aaron, utter pleasure. Utter pleasure. Keep it up. I hope to come back sometime.

I think I used up all my best stories, but I'm sure I can find more. Sounds good.