Nuanced. - 31. Alex Harte: Photographer & Entrepreneur

Episode Date: September 28, 2021

Alex Harte is a photographer, loving partner, program officer for the Centre for Sustainable Rural Development. Most notably, Alex noticed that recent graduates were not able to properly celebrate their academic accomplishments due to COVID-19. In response, Alex began offering his time as a photographer by donation. Alex works hard to hear his guests story and make sure that these photo shoots are positive, memorable experiences.Mr. Harte attended the University of the Fraser Valley and Vancouver Island University for his bachelor's degree in geography. As well, Mr. Harte is enrolled at Vancouver Island University for a master's degree in Community & Rural Planning.Video Interview:https://youtu.be/Q1Fy6PVOpIkSend us a textSupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

We've done this before, and I have to apologize for the first one. It was my first time recording outdoors. It was a bit of a transition, and the audio unfortunately didn't turn out due to the wind. But I really appreciate you being willing to come back on and share your story because I still think it's so valuable for people to hear a little bit about your background and what you're working on. So could you give us a brief introduction? Sure, yeah. First of all, hilarious. So that's kind of how it went down and worked out, but it was still like a ton of fun to change.

chat and kind of catch up because we've kind of known of each other for the last several years now just through the sham and other jobs and everything. So still a great time to catch up. And I'm also excited to be back here and actually recording this again. So super cool. But yeah, my name is Alex. I've born and raised here in Chilliwack. And I've been living on Vancouver Island for the last couple of years, wrapping up my university education. And I'm here because I moonlight as a photographer. It's kind of a big part of my identity and my passion. I've been into photography, honestly, most of my life. I grew up reading Nat Geo Magazines with my granddad on my own time

and just fell in love with photos of faraway places, of different peoples, and kind of the stories that they could tell. So I've followed photography for a very long time. And in about 2017, I think, is where I finally picked up my own camera and started taking it very seriously. And building not only like a bit of a side business around it, but also just that like real passion and hobby. And it's just become a huge part of me now. And I love being able to do it. And I've been a couple of passion projects. I've worked around the world doing event photography like in

Vietnam. I've done portrait photography, graduation stuff, other events. And it's just been a fantastic experience that I've learned a ton from. So I'm super excited to talk about that today. Well, that's awesome. Let's tell people how you came on. my radar because I saw you posting on Instagram that you were doing grad photos by donation and you wrote a little bit of a caption just saying like hey I understand that this has been a tough year for graduates they haven't had the access to the same resources the same events and it seems like you that's kind of where you really took off with your photography and started sharing that with the world so can you tell us how that all came about what pulled

you in that direction why did you want to do that yeah so it started 2020, I think it was kind of the end of March, beginning of April, when restrictions really started to come in place. And it was my graduation year. I had been in and out of university for six years, working odd jobs, really just wanting to get through my education. It meant a lot to me. And having the restrictions, fair enough, counsel a lot of that. Like, you know, we went from one day I was in class and at my job on campus. And the next day, there was an email and a phone call saying, you know, you're getting laid off your job. closing up shop. You're no longer going to be on campus for in-person classes. We're all, we're all scrambling to move online. Like everybody, I think, around the province and honestly, North America at least, we're trying to do at that point. So I just kind of, it's a very, it's a very lucky problem to have, but I really, in the span of like a couple days, I lost my

entire last few weeks of my schooling, and that was personally just meant a lot to me. And, you know, we were all of us who were graduating at that point were kind of stripped of our um like ability to celebrate there was no convocation there were no ceremonies i don't even think there were grad photos and stuff going on at that time we were all just suddenly told you know stay home for two weeks and as we all know that didn't turn out to be two weeks um and it just it was a bummer and while i was dealing with that at the same time i also my brain sort kind of started working like okay there's obviously going to be a need for like volunteers or different services to help adjust to like this new social distancing and these restrictions that are being put into place

and I was really starting to look up to people who were in kind of those essential services and healthcare first responders who were still who were going into the fray and making sure things were taken care of while all this was happening and I'm not any I'm not one of those people I've always kind of looked up to those but I'm not I'm not any first responder I'm not in healthcare but I have my camera. and I wanted to do something that I could find meaningful with it for quite a long time. I was always searching whether that was telling some kind of story or highlighting people who I think needed to be highlighted, capturing events, capturing moments.

So I did a little bit of brainstorming. And while I was thinking of what I could do to kind of help the community out and kind of take part in this like need for shifting and this need for helping in aid, I had a friend who was also graduating. And she reached out to me and asked if I would be interested in taking some grad photos of her and her friends. I hadn't really done any grad photos or any real portraits at this point, but I really wanted to give it a shot. And she asked me, like, how much would I be willing to charge? What would I be willing? Like, what is my rate for it? And I had no idea. It was my first one. So I just said, you know what? Let's do, like, I think it was like, let's do 60 bucks and a 12

pack of beer. Like, I don't know what to charge. I don't even know how these are going to turn out. I don't know what to do. So let's just do that. So, we met up on campus on the weekend and we shot them all outdoors so you know everything was kind of in accordance and people felt safe and comfortable and like as soon as i took that first photo like my brain just started working like okay maybe i can make something of this maybe this can become more but we got that photo shoot done and it was a ton of fun um it was a good couple hours we had a good time the photos turned out like pretty good for what i was expecting um so i just went home like super excited and i got to editing the photos and And it just kind of hit me. I was like, I have no idea what to charge for these photos, but seeing how happy it made them and how happy it made me doing this, like, I should offer some kind of, I should offer photos to help people kind of celebrate their graduation experience, especially when people's morale and mental health and stuff is kind of taken a big hit with losing all

of these kind of ceremonies and everything. So I made a post, I think, like maybe a couple days later on Facebook. and I just said, hey, I'm a photographer, like semi-professional. I have some professional experience over the years. I'm new to this, but I want to offer grad photos for university students by donation. So what I meant by that was, I know things are getting tough. Like, I lost my job. Other people probably lost their jobs.

Pay what you can afford to pay. And we can still celebrate at least somewhat your graduation ceremony. And that was like that like blew up. in my eyes pretty good. It had like 50, 60 shares and a couple hundred likes and people were commenting and taking their friends. And within like the next, the following couple weeks, I had people, I was doing this in Nanaimo, it's a kind of central east coast, Vancouver Island. And I had people from Victoria who were messaging me to come up and want to come get some photos done and just getting a lot of really cool traction. So I started booking like I was probably doing, I started off doing

about six or seven a week. And then I think at the high point, when I was doing like 10 to 15. So it got some pretty good numbers in there. And I even got to reach out my students union at my university. I went to Vancouver Island University. They reached out to me as well. And they offered to do some of the organizing and the booking and the marketing for myself so that they could use their Instagram and social media pages to show students what was going on.

And what we worked out was instead of students paying me cash, VIU would pay me what the average was for the donations and then students would instead donate non-perishable items to the students union and then we donated that to a local food bank who the union has been working with for years so it kind of took that extra step and I was like oh sweet like now not only am I helping students celebrate their grad photos we're also collecting food for a food bank which news reports and people were coming out of the woodwork saying like we really need more food for these types of organizations. So that was really cool to see myself do that.

Like every photo I took, I knew that there was a couple extra perishable, or every client I had, I guess, there was food that was going towards a food bank. And that is what really got me thinking about doing more, even more of a give back with this project, I guess you could call it. And that was all last year. And fast forward to this year, kind of the grad season, the same thing. I did the same thing, except I opened it up to. Vancouver Island and the Fraser Valley. And because my home is here in Chilok, so I've been

kind of going back and forth. And this time, what I did was by donation again, but 10% of every booking that I have is going to go towards the Chilac Youth Health Center. So I reached out to them and just sent them an email saying, hey, like I'm a photographer, this is what I plan on doing. This is how I want to keep moving forward. And with those photos from this year, that is what led you and I to connecting and reaching out. I think you saw some of my posts and what I think I made like the big initial post like saying it's grad season again. This is what my plan is and this is what I like to do. And then you reached out towards to me. And then that's what led us to the first session and then now here today. Yeah. So bit of a story. But that was the progression of that project.

Well, I think what you were doing and what you're still doing is so brilliant because I think that this really leads into, I think, the misunderstanding of accomplishments, because that's something that we talked a little bit about before, which is that I feel like the universities are missing the mark on what they're providing their students and how to communicate that to them, because you're graduating. It should be this big moment, and I've talked to friends who've gotten their certificates, and they look like not as professional, not as meaningful to the person, when they look at it, they go, like, I probably could have typed something like this up for my certificate. Like, that's not what I want. I want something that feels special

from this university that's celebratory. And having all of that removed, you can look at it and go, well, it's a pandemic. What do you expect? But I think at the same time, for so many people I know, like Rebecca, it's like, you've worked so hard and you've put in years of time, classes, stressful nights, sacrifice, and this is kind of your moment, and your parents might not understand how much work this took. Your friends and family might not understand the financial stress you put yourself under. Your community might not understand what you went through to get that education. I know people who've had terrible traumas, and then they still have to finish their semester. Like, it's a big accomplishment to get through university and to arrive with a degree or with

this diploma or with a certificate. And right, like, after this pandemic, it really felt felt like the universities didn't understand how to connect with students in a meaningful way. And so can you elaborate on what that was like for you? And maybe some of the interactions you had with people getting the grad photos done, which may have been their only type of celebration that they had. Yeah, absolutely. You're totally right about that. I think, like, again, just from my personal experience, it was an email one morning saying

don't come back to campus. We're shutting down. And it was like there wasn't any direction for any kind of celebration until July, August. like I got my cap and my diploma in the mail in like a little box that was kind of like package taped together and that's what everybody got. They did what they could. It is what it is. But yeah, it's it was hard for a lot of people.

It was just, you know, you put in, you're right, you put in your years. And I think if you don't, if you're not somebody who has gone through the education experience, it's hard to kind of understand the amount of like labor you put into your degree. And it's important. Like you put in the work and you get your. degree and you learn and you grow in the content that you want to and you have to put in the work like anything right whether it's a trade or a college diploma or a workplace like you just put in the labor for it but outside of the college experience it can be a little bit hard to understand what that looks

like and university has that kind of changed day too like there's people from all different age groups and walks of life who are in your classes now and who are who are completing more specialized programs So who are working on a degree they started 20 years ago. Like, I had people as old as 65, 70 who were in some of my courses who wanted to go back and get it done. So the nature of getting your degree has kind of really changed. And you get a lot, you get so many people from different walks of life. And I'm bringing that up because I had people who I photographed who were from those different demographics from those different walks. And connecting with them was probably was my favorite part of the whole.

job. It was really cool because the difference between what I was doing and maybe what more of a standard photo shoot would look like is we largely met on my university campus and we would I would take them to different spots around campus and we would have the average one was probably about an hour and a half so it took a little bit of time but we walked all around campus we found different spots and in between going to all of our different spots we would connect you know I would ask them questions about their program, what they graduated in, their family, their hobbies, where they're where they're from, if they're from the island, if they're from elsewhere. And we just got to really connect over that way. And kind of by the end of the session, like not only were we getting really

awesome, comfortable, fun, celebratory photos, but I kind of, I walked away from that understanding that person and kind of connecting through like that shared experience of, we all acknowledge that this is a very lucky problem to have to deal with. People had so many harder issues when it came to the restrictions and everything. So we were acknowledged that this is kind of a lucky problem to have, but it still sucked nonetheless. Can you tell us a little bit about those stories and those experiences? Because to me, what I'm hearing is like, that's what my podcast is, is I get this opportunity to hear about their personal life, to hear about their family life, to hear about their work, to hear about who they are and how they got there. So what was that like for you to kind of be able to soak all of that in and get so many different lived experience?

all at once or over time. Yeah, it was very, like, for me it was very perspective, giving. And I guess you could say like humbling, hearing these stories. But, I mean, one of the ones that sticks out to me the most is I photographed a couple who were, I think they might have been mid-40s. And they were from south of the city. So they came up, and they'd both finished their, like, business diplomas. And they brought their whole family with me, and they were an indigenous family.

and they brought some of their uncles and their grandmother with them. And I just kind of got to be a part of celebrating their photos together. And we had the whole family come together and take photos and everything. And I got to learn about, you know, it's one thing for me as a young guy to go through my university education, but to be a couple of parents and to also not only work, but then complete your degree in your spare time or your diploma in your spare time, you just kind of look at folks like that and you're like, are you kidding me? Like that is that is badass in its own right that is badass like you showed up every day and you did your work and you got it done and you handled your home life and you leaned on support from your community members and you got it done and that was just super cool to listen to.

And then on the other side like I also photographed people my age and younger and you got to kind of hear about what their dreams were kind of going into university and now coming out of it, how they're adjusting their lives to. the COVID experience. I did a couple of international students. And these ones were like very, very humbling and almost sad in their own way because they're here from other countries. One of the guys, Raul, I think his name was, I photographed him and he was an exchange student from India. His whole family was back there.

And they were locked down and they were facing their own restrictions. And at this point, there was no way that he was going to get back. And there's no way that his family was going to get to come out and visit. So here's a year. young guy who's in a foreign country of his choice that he came to and study. And he had no outside of some of the friends he had made here and some of the community members. He didn't get to have that experience with his family and friends back home. And not even a ceremony anymore that his parents could watch virtually or anything. So these photos were like his

opportunity to at least capture and celebrate it and then send his family so that they could be a part of it. Wow. Which was pretty crazy. And just a couple months ago, I photographed somebody who had known her parents were down in Belize. And this time, what we did was we were able to coordinate having her parents join us virtually from Belize. So she brought her iPad or tablet or whatever. And during the photos, we FaceTime them, maybe Zoom, something like that. And we had them on camera. And then I would take pictures of her holding her parents on the tablet. And that was just super fun because I don't know how many stock photo companies would be willing to kind of do that.

I don't know. I'm not super experienced, but just being like an individual photographer doing this as like a passion project, like getting those little moments was very, very cool. That's awesome. And we should get into that. How do you approach these photo sessions? Because it does sound like you try and bring something else to the table where like, I don't know, the grad photos I've had over the years have been like sit in a certain position,

put your hands in a certain position. tilt your head one way lean your head forward another way they don't ask about who I am what I am where I'm going none of those questions yeah so what stirred that up in you and how do you approach these photo sessions yeah um I guess like from a few different fronts I guess you could say the first one is I like to think that I'm a fairly natural or social and friendly guy I like to chat with people I like to get to know people's stories it's just like my natural curiosity Um, and I, I work a, I do work a day job right now that doesn't let me really flex that curiosity and social ability. So getting out to do this was like, I just have so many questions to ask you. Like I want to talk to you. I want to listen to you. Um, part of it might even just be like self stimulating my curiosity. Um, but the other side is like I love being creative. Um, I grew up. If I wasn't playing sports and hanging out with my friends, I was writing. I was learning to draw. I was fiddling on cameras a little bit at the time. Like I just really loved being creative. Um, I grew up. Um, I was writing. Um, I was learning to draw. Um, like, I just really loved being creative and doing different things. So when I go into these sessions, it's almost, sometimes I wonder if

it's almost more for me than it is for them, because I'm like, okay, I'm going to learn your story. I'm going to ask these questions. But as you tell me this, like if you tell me you're a dancer, or if you tell me that you're athletic or that you really don't like being photographed, I'm going to use that information and go with the flow and adjust the photographs accordingly. Like somebody, her name was Don and she was a dancer. So we got her to do, I got her to do some movement and she's wearing a really nice dress. So we got some flow. We got some movement. She did some twirls and pirouettes and I didn't do that with anybody else. So those are like uniquely her photos. But yeah, just getting to be social and creative. It kind of, I always tell people when I go into it

that the first couple of photos are always going to be super awkward for me and for them just as we get to know each other. And then by the end of the session, most of the time, we're laughing and having a good time. And it's been good memories all around. So long story, like long story short, I like to go in like friendly, chill, and just creative and curious. It sounds like you also put the soul back in the photo, though, because I think for so many people, the photo process is so dull and uncomfortable that it's hard to get the person to come through the photo. Yeah. Yeah. What is that like for you? Because it seems like when I think of like I have to go out and take photos, I'm putting on a persona. I'm putting on like a mindset of like, okay, now I have to go out. What am I going to wear? And it's like, I make it a hassle in my own head of how this needs to go. So what is that like for you to kind of try and take that away from the person? Let them let go of that stress and anxiety of like they're going to take photos. How are the photos going to turn out? Yeah. That's definitely something I like evolved along the way. I definitely.

wasn't super easy starting out. I'm not a great poser. I, and I also really personally believe in more candid photos. So with that kind of process for me, it's just if I can get the person laughing and smiling and feeling confident in front of the camera, that's kind of the main, that's the main goal for me. And again, if you're somebody who's super extroverted,

I will get those big laughs and smiles out of you. I'll make stupid jokes. deprecating humor, whatever it is, just to get those laughs and, like, chuckles going. And something I've learned to do, which I think any decent photographer already knows, but I just came up on, is really including the person in the process. So I'll show them photos that I think are going to be final edits and ones that I really like that they can take a look at. And if you can bring out that, like, confidence of, oh, I actually do look pretty good in that

photo or I do look really happy in that photo. You can kind of tell it gets them a little bit more confident in front of the camera. Like, I'm a photographer. I hate being in front of the camera. There's a reason I'm on the other side of it. So I can understand that kind of uncomfortability. But I think the difference, because there is a lot of that pressure and like sometimes you do get that really strict, rigid posing and sometimes it's important.

But I kind of think because this is really a passion and like a moonlight as, it's like my five to nine um it lets me be a little bit more easy going with the photo process and again i just by the end of it i like to think of it as taking photos of a friend because of that's how we've connected um and just being able to go with the flow like if the weather changes if there's a lot of people where we where we were expecting to shoot um if there's anything i always ask if there's any places that they would specifically like to go to have their photos taken. Anything that catches their eye, I'll ask them to bring props that they think represent them. I've had people bring watering cans because they like gardening. I've had

people bring champagne because they want to celebrate. I've had people bring banners saying congratulations, like whatever it is that they see. And then I think that helps bring out the personality a little bit more too. Wow. That sounds like you really try and allow the person to just come through and that that seems to be your focus. How did you go about choosing your location and with the changing weather of BC, how do you approach all of that? And where do you guys like to take these photos? Yeah, well, my degree is in geography,

so I naturally have, like, I love checking out locations. I like paying attention to the weather and the changing forecasts. That was just something I focused on in my university years, so I kind of bring that over to help with the photography. But when it comes to location, I always have a set few places that I know will always turn out pretty well. And depending on the time of the year, I pay attention to sunset, sunrise, so we can get those golden hours or the blue hour, depending on what kind of photos people want. But I'll always offer a couple of my locations that I think will always work. But then with the option of,

hey, if you guys have specific locations that mean a lot to you, I would actually recommend going there because you're going to look at your surrounding and feel connected to that when you look back on the photos. So it's always a mix between the two. Well, that is brilliant because I don't know of any photographer who's thinking of how to let the person choose their location because then they'll come through. That's so interesting. What are some of these locations and you have to elaborate blue light? Oh yeah like blue hour. It's kind of like post sunset as the sun is kind of I guess

like beyond the horizon and you kind of you get this golden hour at sunset which the lighting is really depending on the time of year but can be really like beautiful and golden and light and really lights people up really well, but also really saturates the background. But when you get to blue hour, it's kind of the hour following golden hour. And that's when things become a little bit darker, a little bit blue overcast. Like it cools the image in the photo. And you can get some really cool like dramatic photos. So it's just it's just all about paying attention to when the sun sets, the clouds, the overcast, the lighting. And that will kind of dictate how and when you shoot.

Wow, that is, that is amazing and something I had no idea about. And so can you tell us a little bit more about some of the locations that you would prefer and lean towards? I'm a big, big, if you look at, if you check out my portfolio, I'm a huge fan of anywhere that's green. Spring and summertime are my favorite time. I'm probably most people's favorite time to take photos. But for the actual locations, I used Vancouver Island University, but because it has some

beautiful green spots there. There's one place that I'm really connected to. It's called Tamagawa Pond, and it's a Japanese garden that was gifted to the university. It's got koifish and a little bridge that runs over the pond and enough coverage to where when the light or when the sun is lower in the sky, it kind of just trickles through the leaves and like the foliage and gives you some really cool like rays. And I like bringing people there because it's quiet and you're not having a ton of people watching. And a couple of photos I've gotten the coy fish in the foreground and then the person and then the background. So you kind of get really cool like textures and you can make like really beautiful busy photos, but nothing

that's too busy and hectic to look at. I've also taken people to, there's a few parks in enamel. One is called Neck Point. And it's a beautiful like kind of rugged coast right directly on the water. And you'll usually get like seals and during the summertime, some orcas and stuff like way off in the background. Really great for any kind of outdoor photos. You get a lot of open space for lighting and then you can go into the trees or get right on the water. I've had people who've requested there. Out here in the Fraser Valley, the Vedder River is always really nice because you can find little spots among the trees and the bushes right on the river there. You can get them right on the water. You get sham in the background. So really anywhere

that has got a lot of beautiful foliage outdoor. I like a lot of green background. And if you can get some photo or some flowers that are in bloom like rhododendrons or anything like that then for me that's like chef's kiss on the photo like it's just super cool so outdoors where i like to specialize that's awesome um i'm curious as to how the donations turned out because you hear by donation how do how do people respond to that how do they handle navigating that because in my mind is it like is it $200 is it five like what is the reasonable donation and how did you kind of navigate that yeah um it was a little bit tricky at first, not from anybody else. Like, if there's one thing I found, and maybe it was because of everything that was going on elsewhere, but people were very receptive to the idea

and really appreciated it. And maybe I sometimes, like, I'm too optimistic about people and stuff. So sometimes, like, I might believe a little more than I should, but I chose to for this anyways. And people were really good about it. Like, when I first started off, I refused to say a dollar amount until I had an average of like four or five sessions then I could look at how much I was given and paid and then I worked on an average for that so once I had my average down I'd go to people like people ask like oh how much should I expect and I was like okay this is the average but pay more or less depending on a what you can afford to and how much you appreciate the photos like I wouldn't take payment until after my photos were delivered just to ensure

that they were happy with everything and I didn't want to take a down payment. I do now for like bigger projects, but I didn't want to take anything until after because I figured that would kind of help them indicate and dictate what they would pay. And it was really good. Like I mean, yes,

I would have absolutely made more had I had flat rates and if I charged what I could charge, but I didn't want that wasn't, that would defeat the whole purpose of this project. But people acted in pretty good faith. Like I didn't have to chase anybody down for any, kind of payments. For donations, what I gained was very reasonable from everybody, especially students just graduating and stuff. And people were just, I think it just added to a level of

like gratitude and appreciation where people were like, oh, like, I had people even like pay me and then come back and pay me even more because they were like, oh, I went and looked up how much like that would have cost. And I didn't even pay you half of that. So here's a little bit extra and stuff like that. So it just, it was good all around. I think. I had one issue with one person, but it was on my end. I honestly, I didn't give the greatest photos. So they weren't, understandably, they weren't very happy with them. I wasn't happy with them either.

But even that, as like, whatever you're going to give me, just give me half of that. And I can either book you another session or we can just call it a day after that. So she gave half of what she would have originally paid, and then we just went from there. Wow. So that was like a lot of faith that you put in other people with very little information. on how this was all going to turn out because the fear, if you're like a business person, is you want to make sure that your time is paid for, that the equipment is all taken care of, that you're editing time is taking care of, like, there's a lot that goes into taking

these photos. Yeah. And you're just leaving it open-ended. Were you ever nervous or, like, hesitant on, is this going to go the way I wanted to? Yeah, I was definitely nervous at first. But again, I think what made it really easy for me is this was finally a chance to me for me to like regular regularly practice and build my name on like a weekly basis um like the constant like multiple shoots a week really got me good really quick and the editing time again

let me practice my coloring and my editing and how heavy or how lightly i wanted to have the editing style like it really let me come into my own and because i did have a job just prior to this and i had i had money put away and stuff i wasn't suit like this wasn't a job that was paying my bills per se it was helping me kind of keep a float and buy groceries and stuff like that but um being knowing it had the flexibility and this wasn't like i'm going to lose everything if i don't get paid from this made it a lot easier like a lot easier for me to um have put that faith kind of out there because i wasn't so focused on like this is my full-time job this is my business because if it was more of that i would be a lot more stressed as anyone would be yeah but because this was still like my

my hobby and my passion business, then I wasn't too concerned. I was more concerned about the practicing and the getting my name out there and providing this like gift or providing this opportunity to people than I was about making top dollar from it. I find a lot of similarities in that because for me, starting this podcast, it was like it was all fine and dandy, getting the equipment, getting the everything set up. But then it was like, well, I've never interviewed. And so my first real-time interviewing is with somebody where I'm asking for their time. And I'm taking risk that I'm going to interview properly, that I'm going to record the audio properly, that I'm going to get the video proper, and put all that together because they're giving their time. And I don't

get a second round with them. So it's important. Obviously, this one is a little bit different, but I don't get a second chance. So when I'm asking for that, it was very stressful my first few times just recording the podcast because it was like, how am I going to do this? What's the setup? people want and how do I want this structured like a conversation that's three hours long it's very tough to plan it out perfectly and know exactly how it's going to go oh for sure a certain amount of like I set up questions plan it out and then there's the other part of like we're going to go where this goes and I don't know where it's going to go so let's just take the ride together and kind of find out but knowing that the person sitting there and they have no idea how

the video cameras work the audio works microphones work how all of that set up they're just coming in sitting down and expecting me to have it all figured out when during those first few recordings it was like, I don't know if I have this all figured out yet. Yeah, absolutely. So what was that like for you? Because you said you hadn't done grad photos before, the typical way that people did them you weren't a fan of or that you thought you could bring something different. So what was that process like to build up the skill set and get comfortable in the realm? What was that first recording like in comparison to now? Yeah, yeah. It was a it was an adventure to say the least. Like, pretty much exactly what you described, right?

Like, you get everything you feel like you need. And then you sit down, you're like, oh, now the real. Like, I thought that was the real work, but this is the real work now. So it was a lot of, a lot of trial and error in learning. I mean, I was on YouTube and photo websites and talking to other people who are photographers, like, pretty routinely. And I would take whatever I'd learned from my last photo shoot. I would literally write it in a journal, like posing, lighting, time of day. I would put that aside so it was all there

and then I'd go into the next photo shoot with that kind of information and then rinse and repeat so every photo shoot I would come back like okay what did I learn today? Write it down bookmark it so that I can come back to it before my next session and then repeat repeat repeat

but sometimes like in the middle of the session when I had people actually ask me really good challenging questions like people who I photographed sometimes knew exactly what they were talking about too right like they might have been hobbyists or just knew about lighting and angles and posing. And sometimes I just have to like fake it till I made it kind of idea. Like, okay, like let's pose you here like this. It might feel awkward, but I knew it would translate well into a picture. But you just like sometimes with my knowledge, if it was still

a little rusty, I just had to like breathe confidence into it and just say it as fact. And if it worked out, it didn't work out and I learned. And if it worked out, then it worked out. And I still learned. So one step at a time, faking it until I make it. That's fair. That was the beginning. I had Tim McAlpine recently on and he's deep into the audio video space. And so just even sitting down with him, it was like, what is he going to see? Is he going to see me as like, you're outside of your realm or you outside of your space? Like, you don't know how you come across to people who are also in the field because you're in it and you're doing the best you can. But you don't know how other people see that. And when other people have audio and

video experience or camera experience, it's like, do you know that I should be doing it a different way? And are you judging me based on that? So did you have to deal with that at all? Oh, at least personally, every single time. Like, I didn't really get a lot of pushback or questions or concerns from people. But like, every time I sat down and when I pulled up my final, like, when I pulled up my raw images to edit, I'd look at them and be like, these are terrible. I don't want to send these at all. And then I'd edit them and be like, they're still terrible. I don't want to send them at all. And then I would send them and be like, I don't. want to hear back from this person but then i'd hear back and they would be happy with the photos

and they'd be like these are really nice thank you so much for doing this and it was like it was my own critic in my head that was really really knocking me down um so that was a big learning curve was just having some it was like this mix of having confidence in the quality of your work and then understanding that you're still going to be growing and hopefully getting better and improving your practice but uh not too much pushback from other people just again things with like oh like do you are you sure you want to do it here like maybe let's get the lighting over there or i'd have people who i would pose and then they would say oh like i actually think we should pose like differently like i should turn my chin down or up and then i would take that as like okay obviously they know what they're talking about let's do it their way and see how

it translates and oftentimes it turned out better than what my idea was so it's like like when it comes to that i would say just being open to some of the feedback and not like criticism but critiques and like constructive criticism I guess and um just giving yourself like giving myself a little bit of that grace of like okay be critical and mindful of your work but don't be rated like you tend to do in your head understand that you're actually not bad and if people are pretty consistently telling you like what you do is good work and you they like what they do what you do and they're reaching out to you because they've seen the work that you've done there's some truth to that that you are competent. I don't disagree and I struggle with the exact same thing. Like one thing,

when I have to edit the podcast, I hear the same video and audio multiple times. So I know that I'm guilty of like transitioning using the word awesome. Every time, oh, that's awesome. Oh, that's great. Like it gets so repetitive that I'm like, do all I say in this podcast is awesome? Like every single time. And so being that critical, but a lot of people listen and they've never said that or never even notice. So it's about understanding that, like, there is room for improvement, but you're, like, giving yourself that grace of, like, you're a human being. Like, there's, it's not always going to be perfect. And you also just have your own abnormalities and, like, your own personality that's going to shine through. Yeah. And so you kind of have to own that. Oh, for sure. Like,

especially being in a creative situation like you and I both are, like, bringing your personality through is what's going to make it yours. It's, it's so easy to be cookie cutter and to just take pieces from everybody else who's already con before you. But to put your own personality and your own touch and your own like love and passion into it is what is going to make like this podcast, my photography, anybody else's art completely theirs. Yeah. I don't disagree. What was that like to get the reception from the community? Because it sounds like Victoria, the university reached out to you and wanted to work with you and saw that and wanted to get involved. So what was it like? And then you got all these shares on the post you made. What was it like? What was it?

was it like to kind of like have the community have your back? Honestly, it was awesome. Like I'm a big believer in community and having your friends and families backs when they're trying to build something or when push comes to shove, like just being there. And like I said, like I've always wanted to have some kind of community role where I was giving back to people, whether that was wearing a uniform of some kind or in some kind of job role or title. So having the community, because this project came from a genuine place in my heart of like I want to do my part to help out I'm not I'm not going to be in the I'm not going to be on the front lines taking care of this thing personally but I want to do something I really really want to do something for my community so it came from

a very genuine place and then to have that like equally reciprocated and that love given back was very validating because it didn't it made me feel like what I'm doing actually has a purpose and matters to some people it made me feel like validated and that like I wasn't just trying to get people's attention and do something to be like holier than thou or for bragging rights or whatever it was like okay I put my heart out there with something I truly care about and the community and partners and people who didn't even know me reached out and said this is a good idea I want to be a part of it so it's very very validating and it just really really helped me take a look at myself and be like okay I'm

actually putting myself out there and doing something that has some value and that was kind of that was just so important that's awesome and can you just say who's your competition right now like who's doing the same thing as you nobody like when it comes to like the grad by donation I I mean I haven't really actively looked I've seen people doing obviously grad photos and stuff whenever the season comes up but I haven't seen anybody doing what I'm doing and I kind of really like that yeah I don't disagree and that's why it kind of leaped out at me because I was like I don't know anybody who would do this because can you give us like a little bit of the landscape on how these things would typically work to like if I were to go get donation our grad photos done by somebody else what would

I be paying what would the cost look like what would the process look like from like the standard typical um photographer yeah definitely um for like it's a probably a pretty similar process, you reach out to a photographer whose style you like. But what they will do in return is they'll either have a set time, like you have 40 minutes or an hour with me. I charge, like, this person might charge $250 to $300 an hour. Photographers will have different rates depending on experience. But for grad photos, like I know from some universities, you could be paying $4 to $500 for photos. And that's just the classic, like, you know, posed and your grad cap and everything. and 10 minutes of your time and it's gone.

Other photographers might charge 250 to 400 for a series of photos. But the same thing. You reach out to the one you like, you book a time slot with them, they'll give you what's available. You have probably a hard hour or a hard whatever their time slot is. So 5 to 6, then at 6 o'clock we're done. And you know exactly what you're paying. So really the big difference I did was that's find an approximate time. We're going to be between 40 minutes and an hour and a half to make

sure we get everything done. Pay me what you think these photos are worth afterwards, what you can afford, and we'll both walk away happy and hopefully getting to know somebody a little bit more. So similar experience, but I'm not going to give you a number that you need to pay me for this kind of project. It doesn't sound like a similar experience, though, because you seem genuinely interested in the person that you're working with, where on their best day, your competition, would be their goal is to make money. That's what they've put out there. That's their business model.

And so there's already like a disconnect before anything's even gotten started. You have these soft timelines of 40 minutes to an hour and a half that gives you that freedom to go longer or shorter. How does that kind of translate? How does that come about what makes it 40 minutes and what makes it an hour and a half for you? Yeah. For the soft times, I keep that because it kind of depends on the connectability that I have with the people.

if we're really hitting it off and I know that there's a lot more good photos that are just waiting between the two of us then we'll go a little bit longer but also like if if we're really connecting we'll take a break and we'll chat for 20 minutes we'll sit down on a set of stairs or at the garden and just kind of hang out and talk and get to know each other

a little bit more like almost like taking a little bit of a break and then we'll get back to work and then I find that even creates more comfortable photos I know a lot of super social photographers who can make friends with their clients in five minutes like it's kind of part of the job um i just think the difference is is not having that high like that hard deadline pressure to like get in and out and oh it's in an hour we have what we have we'll have to make do with it um also maybe i'm just not that great with timing myself and pacing like if i don't talk to people mackay like do you

have any like do you need to be out at a certain time are you pretty okay if we kind of have that soft uh deadline so we can keep going if say the lighting changes or if something comes up and if people say yes then i'll just check in with them as we go on with our session um and if not then i make sure that we do have that hard timeline i don't maybe it's just me but i find that just knowing that you have this personality noticing your instagram to me that would make it so much more accessible than having someone be super friendly when i enter and like start the meeting because to me I guess I just struggle with feeling like there's fakeness, that there's like, this is the model that you know, like, people who know how to talk and how to kind of get started and make you feel super comfortable fast. I almost never feel comfortable with those people because I know that that's their skill is getting it all through and moving it through like your sheep being herding and that they know the things to say to you, just like a waitress or a waiter, that knows how to charm.

people. And the second I start experiencing that, I'm like, I don't need this. Like, this isn't a connection to me because I know that the second I leave you, forgotten who I am, what I'm about. Like, it's not a genuine connection that carries through. And maybe for others that they don't notice that. But I'm just interested in your thoughts on that. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. I can be the same way. Like, even when I walk into somewhere, when I'm looking for somebody to sell me something and to become my friend instantly, I still get uncomfortable. Like, it actually, as social as a person as I can be, it actually takes me a lot to become really comfortable with people. And I know that I suffer from that awkwardness. So maybe that just

kind of helps me relate to people that I photograph. And also, I think just going back to it, that like this isn't my main source of income. This really is like my passion. And I've always, always, always really valued working with people. I've always really valued photography and being creative. So having that come together, I think just makes it really easy for me. And as much as I am there to practice my skill, and yes, through the donations also make a paycheck and to earn funds for places like the CHYC, it's also just as important to me that they, okay, maybe I'll back up. This is, okay, when it comes to photos, nice posed photos are important. lighting, direction, background, your technical analysis of photos are important, but

whenever we look back at any kind of photo, there's a memory that's associated with that, right? Like, it's why we keep books. It's why we keep our photos. It's so we can look back and we're reminded of what our feelings were like that time. And when I'm taking photos, especially during these times, when it's become much more difficult to try and find some happiness and safe. insecurity and just peace, like just peace. When people look back at the photos that I took for them,

I don't want them just to look at a nice photo of them. I want them to look back and be like, that was a nice experience. He was friendly. He actually was invest in what I had to say. There was lots of laughter. There was good moments. We had good chats. And this was one of the few things that I got to do to celebrate my graduation. And overall, it was just a pleasant experience. And I think when you have those, like, positive memories associated with that, you, the photo becomes more beautiful. And I know that that's dangerous because you're like, oh, you're just making friends with these people so that they have good memories for their photos. But I also just genuinely like getting to know people. I mean, you know, things like humans of New York and stuff like that, like I eat that up because it's just strangers.

I think everybody wants to open up to somebody or share their story or have it heard. and I get genuine joy from hearing people's stories. I'm always so curious about life, work, hobbies, passions. Like, it just really, really lights me up. So it's like a gift to myself as well. Do you know when you kind of discovered that, that you had that interest in that passion? I think it's kind of always been there.

Again, I think it just goes back to reading magazines like National Geographic in my own time. And I was a big, I was a pretty avid reader as a kid. And so just getting into like the stories and the backgrounds of characters, fictional or non-fiction, I just really gained that love. And I've always tried just to be aware that people come from different backgrounds, which means that they're going to have different perspectives based on the different experiences that we have. And that does not make somebody necessarily more right than somebody else because everybody's experiences or perceptions, what they say, how they feel what they think is based on whatever hardships or lack their own. they've gone through in their lives and keeping that in mind it just i can look at what people have to say is like a place of just like potential to connect and just satisfying curiosity i guess

like um i don't know it just i think i kind of lost the topic here but um just for me like having this role and like trying to find role models through finding that it was just like, I saw your Instagram post and I was like, I don't think people are going to get it. Like, I don't think that people read captions and I don't think people are going to realize the intent behind this. And it's such this deep intent to help the community through these trying times. And in a way that was accessible for you, like, as you said, you're not a nurse, you're not a doctor. So there's different ways we can all contribute.

But it's that coming together and that willingness to take the risk, be an entrepreneur and put yourself out there that was like I don't that's what that's what bothered me that's why I started the podcast is because I feel this deep desire to have those stories told that frustration of like people are going to do so much good and they're never going to have their story told they're never going to have their why explained because in a like in a pessimistic way you could look at a post and be like well maybe they're getting paid or maybe they're getting this but when you hear the story when you hear the genuineness through somebody's articulation of why they started, what they were seeing from their perspective.

You really understand and kind of humble yourself to like, wow, that's a deep motivation. And I'm a big fan of Shark Tank because a lot of the time it's very emotional. People are intentionally emotional. But you get to hear that why. You get to hear that my grandfather struggled with this and that's what caused me to start this. And it's like, that's what it's all about. That's what we should be looking to people towards is not about right now it feels like we're very focused on people's mistakes. that's just what I feel like I'm seeing on the news and in media is like how did this person fail miserably or where was their darkest mistake and right now it feels like we're really lacking leaders and people who set a positive example and they're not perfect and I've had people say like I'm not perfect don't look to me for that and it's like I don't think anybody's perfect but the goal is to find what they're passionate about and how they're sharing that because I know a lot of people who say they're artists say they're photographers say their X thing

and they don't practice it and they don't practice it with passion they're not trying to share that with the community and just hearing what you were saying about like these people's experiences aren't being shared and nobody's recognizing this person who came from India to get an education and he's not having his day or his celebration

it's like that really puts into perspective how disconnected we can become as people because I was reading an article and it was like children only get like 11 minutes a day of like quality time with their parents and then you go like wow how often do people really connect and we get so used to being like hey how are you george good how are you and we don't hit those deep levels of like what are you about like what do you care about and how are you translating that into the world in a meaningful way and so getting to talk to you and hear this story

of like what motivated you to do this i think is so important for people to understand because you're not 60 years old you're not nearing retirement where you're like i have the free time now. This was a risk. This was putting yourself out there. And I think it's opened a ton of doors for you because you've made these really big connections in the community where I feel like I want to promote you. I want people to know who you are because this is the person you want taking your photos no matter what because this person has the right mentality when it comes to translating just a photo to the meaning in your life because you're right like 40 years later. They're not going to remember, oh, yeah, that was in the gymnasium of this building that I took this photo.

It's like, you want to look at the photo and go, I remember graduating, and you want that to spark all the other memories, because 40 years later, that's going to be one of your only choices. And so you're going to have this one photo or these 10 photos that are going to remind you of your time in university, what should that look like? And it feels like you really took like a grassroots approach to it. You really said from the get-go, it's going to be about the person by letting them choose their location by letting them get comfortable at their own pace, by letting them dictate how they wanted to pose and creating that space for them to share their story. So that gets tied in with

the photo. It just seems so much deeper than just photos to me. And so like I'm interested, what do you think of that? Yeah. I mean, with everything that you just said there, I couldn't agree more. I mean, just starting from the beginning, like someone's why is everything. I think that's the greatest perspective you can never get on somebody, right? Like, you might not know why somebody's they're doing, why they're working the job they're working, why they're pursuing the passion they're pursuing. But once you sit down and listen to their why, it makes sense. Like, it just comes together. But, sorry, what was the last part there? So I'll just ask a different question because I want this question answered too. For the podcast, I leave it open to being two to three

hours long. And I just want to really appreciate you for leaving that space open. Because for me, it's, I'm in the same boat of like, I don't know how long somebody's going to talk for or how much they're going to have to share how long they can talk. Like, me thinking long form is like, can I think 20 minutes long of speaking? And some people are really good at it. And some people, they answer the one question that I asked and they go no further or no shorter. They just hit that one point. So it's hard for me to dictate how long it's going to be. And I learn a lot about the person and about how much I should get involved in the through those kind of interactions of like, okay, we're there answering these questions really quickly. Maybe I should expand more. Maybe I should explain my thinking. And so I just really appreciate you for leaving that 40 minutes to an hour and a half because I think that that allows the person to kind of make their own decision about how involved they want to be in the photography experience. Yeah. Totally. I think leaving that kind of like flexible time space is I mean, creativity and art are human, right?

Like they're hard to put into little segments here and there and keeping the open time, like whether it's for my photos or for your podcast, it allows the conversation or that connection to branch off into different ways. And either you hit it off with somebody really quick, it's a great conversation, it's a great photo shoot, you both leave smiling within 40 minutes, or you're with somebody who maybe takes a little bit more of that relationship building to, get out or and maybe it takes a little bit longer to get to that same point of connection and having those important conversations or being able to connect and be creative or sometimes you

just hit it with somebody who like okay neither of us want to leave because we're really really hitting it off right now let's keep going over in this space so like having that having that kind of flexibility i think is just part of being creative um i'm also someone who like very much flies by the seat of his pants is i like the plan um it helps me de-stress and organize things, but every time, whenever it comes down to, like, the execution, it's almost like the plan gets thrown out the window. And it's like, all right, one step at a time here, let's just, let's navigate this as we do it. And I think that's a big, that's like very related to just the creative process in general. Right. I'm interested to know, and we'll wrap up

this discussion on photography, by you telling us about the other aspects of your photography. What are you doing now? What are you involved in? Do you do other photo sessions? Um, are you just interested in taking photos for your own benefit? How do you, how do you put all of that together? Yeah. Um, I mean, eventually if this became a full time career for me, that would be the absolute dream. It's something I've thought about for well over a decade now. Um, but that I keep kind of putting off because of that fear of failure. I'm only I'm very scared of failing. So it kind of keeps me from diving in full time. And I know that something like this can be hard to build a lifestyle around and life around.

But if it became a full-time thing, that would be like, you know, any education that I have any past work experience previous to that is great. But being, doing this full-time would be like the dream come true. With that being said, I am doing, I do have some other projects. Like, I want to keep this donation going even beyond the pandemic. And when things start to open up, I still want to offer this. But I've worked with a couple of small businesses now doing headshots and like some product photography, helping them just kind of build their portfolios and get their names out

there. I've also been doing, I've been doing some events. Now that events are open up, I have some scheduled and booked for the fall, working with universities and other event organizations just to be their event photographer. And me and my best friend, he's a videographer, we've actually got some weddings now booked. So we just did an engagement photo shoot together from somebody who used to work at the same place that me and him met at. So we kind of have that connection there. And we did a engagement photo shoot, which was, again, it kind of had that, like, connection and, like, beauty to it because we photographed them, like, real time getting engaged.

And he did it on, like, a small rented boat. So they took me on the boat and I got to go for a cruise with them and chat with them and hang out and get some really fun, just real photos of them. and they really liked the style so now we're actually doing their wedding when they have a date for it set and i've got a wedding i'm doing next week and then another wedding in october so but it all stemmed from this uh photo the grad photos because now people are seeing i have a style that i developed through my editing and my photo taking people can look to my instagram and my website and kind of see kind of see that i take more of that natural not so candid or not so

opposed approach. And if they like that style, they know that it's mine and that they can book me for it. And I've been applying to like photo competitions, but those things are tough. There's a lot of really strong photographers out there. So yeah, I'm really just, I'm building it as I go. And I'm still trying to find out what kind of niche I want to do. I mean, ultimately, I would love to be doing, I would love to do travel photography and photojournalism. My now fiancee, we talked about this a little bit last time. She is, she's been a travel writer for a few years now. She's been all over the world. What's a travel writer? She, so what she focuses on, travel writing is kind of just, you can take it however you want. It's kind of like being a photographer. So what she focuses on is

she's all, she's very like mission and ethical, driven and a very moral person. And what she has been doing on her travel writing website for the last couple years now is she's been, she's been to, five continents, dozens of countries. So she knows, she knows her stuff, but she's been writing about what is called mindful travel. And essentially that is just providing tips and stories and insight on how to travel and be more aware of where you are while traveling. So anything from reputable volunteer organizations or how to be, how to be aware of local businesses that you can support while you travel. So mom and pop shops, whether that's restaurants or guest houses or hostels, how you can minimize your, not your footprint, but kind of your impact while you travel. So

packing minimally packing tips and tricks, stories from, you know, what you should do with feeding animals, whether it's stray dogs or like domestic animals of different countries, how to approach them, how to be respectful of the places that you're in. We've both traveled pretty extensively, and there's a lot of totally fine, nice travelers out there, but there's a lot of people who, even from like your own country or your neighboring country, you watch them and their interactions while they travel, and you just get kind of secondhand embarrassment, because obviously you're a guest when you travel to somebody else's country, and the whole idea is, here's how to travel while making it an adventure and something that you will actually learn from and connect with the people that. whose countries you're traveling to. That's probably pretty long-winded, but... But that sounds like a do-no harm when you travel type of mentality, which is really important. Can you tell us about, and then we can move into a little bit of your background and growing up?

Sure. But I'm interested to know you've been doing something with the Vetter River. You've been taking photos. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Vetter River is just a place I've really loved, like, my entire life. I've been going down there since I was a little kid. and over the past almost year now I've just it was very it was almost like meditative for me

but basically what I did as it go down there through the seasons and not really have a set time or day but I would take photos of different days or events that were going on down there so I have the river from this past winter fall winter up until now and just I'm kind of what I'm doing is I'm like tracking the river throughout its different seasons and capturing the mood, the way that the water level changes, the way that the sun hits a different time of days, the way that the foliage changes, and just really capturing like what a year on the Vedder River looks like. And they're all pretty open landscape photos. There's no, it's not like I'm capturing the same spot, the same picture every time. It's just,

it's wherever I see that compels me that day. But what I want to do with that is I would love to get the pictures printed and framed and either show them somewhere or even sell them at like a marketplace or something. It's just, it was a passion project for me that got me outside on the river and it's a beautiful spot. Like the valley itself is very beautiful. And I just kind of want to show that to people who live here and also my, my friends and who live elsewhere, either outside of the country or over on the island or something. But yeah, it's, it's, it's, a way for me to, it was a way for me to kind of take care of myself, get outside, and just track something that I love for the last year. Right. I think that that's absolutely brilliant because

for me, I'm on the same page. The Vetter River and the Fraser River are a couple of my two favorite spots in the valley. And just when you told me about that, the first time, I was just taken aback because I really want those photos. I will definitely be a buyer because Rebecca and I, she worked at the town butcher right there. We would go for walks before she went to work there. We went for walks all throughout our university, UFB is right there. So when we drop her off, we'd go for a walk along there. And so we've developed this deep relationship with it.

And then I think that as a photographer, I've heard it said that they remind you of the things that you kind of put into the background in your day to day. Like we all get caught up in what's our next to do list or what are we doing? And the photographer, the artist, pull. you back to the complexity that exists within your own world. Like the other day I was just driving and I stopped for a second. I was like, I was upset about something that happened with work, just a bit frustrated. And I was like, it's infinity. Like, I'm looking out into the world and it's infinity. And there's more trees than I could ever count, more grains of grass that I could

ever realize. There's more water flowing through here than I could ever imagine. And you disconnect yourself so quickly from the complexity and the beauty in the world. And I think that I had a deep lack of understanding of the beauty of art and the beauty of photography and what's the point of it all. Oh, that's a nice photo. It would be my mindset originally. Yeah. And then I got the piece that's just to your left there. Which I love, by the way. And I started to realize this was made by person and he worked hard on it and he tried to pull together indigenous culture, the environment and the valley that we live in all into one photo or into one image. And so I started really thinking about like, what does that mean and why would that pull someone like myself towards that?

Like, why did I want that so badly that I could see it in my mind being in the studio and being set up like this? And then I started to realize the real depths that photographers that artists can bring to remind you of the beauty that exists all around you, that you can instantly put into the background when you're upset, frustrated, distracted, on your phone too much, that that's where it pulls you back to. So I just really want to appreciate you for working on that because for someone like myself, I'm never going to go out and take photos of the Veta River all year round. Like, I'd like to, but I've got other things on my mind and somebody else being able to take

that time and say, this is something beautiful. and I think that other people might find this just as beautiful. It's like, you're right. I'm here. I'm here to say, I think that that's beautiful. And I'm very excited to see those photos, go and support if they are at an art gallery, because I think that that's where community and the beauty of our environment kind of come together because you're the vessel that's delivering the information.

And so I just want to acknowledge you for that. And so let's move into a little bit about your childhood, your background. How did this all come about? How did you become a photographer? Start us from the beginning. Sure, yeah. So I grew up in like a pretty normal middle class two-parent household. I know I said I was born in Raised in Chilac, but technically I was born in Vancouver, but I moved here when I was like four years old. So my life is in Chilawak. And we moved out here kind of for the idea of more family friendly, more affordable than what Vancouver was becoming at that time, because that was like the late 90s. And my parents really wanted to have a family out here. They're both from Chilawak. and yeah I mean I had a pretty I had a pretty good childhood I'm the oldest of three siblings so I have a younger brother and a younger sister and we're all typical siblings but at the end of the day like there's all my favorite people they might not they might not believe that if I say it out here but I like we would do anything for each other so I grew up with like a pretty a very very lucky and very healthy household despite our typical family dramas that you would expect, but both my parents, I watched, I watched work, good, solid, like, middle class

jobs, honest jobs, something that I really, really valued, even if I'm not doing a job like that myself, if photography does take off, there's a lot of ethics I've learned from them that will be part of that photography forever. You know, I played sports. I had my few close friends. And, yeah, like, I really ended the day, I think I was one of the lucky ones and wouldn't change my childhood much for anything. Can you tell us a little bit more about your family, like who they are and what they do and what some of those interactions were like growing up? Yeah, totally. So my dad is, he's an electrical engineering technician. So he's kind of in between electrical engineer and

technician. He builds fire alarm systems. And my mom is a certified dental assistant. And she works in a specialty clinic for kids with like disabilities and who need the extra care and attention for when it comes to procedures. And she's, she's like the second in command of that office by now. And she's just such a very, very caring person who's always kind of put people and especially children first. And I think that's where I got a lot of my, my care for people and like my want to actually do something that betters people's lives, whether it's spiritually with, some photos or medically or whatever it might be. And very smart woman is definitely like she just seems to be right about everything.

Definitely a big role model of mine. And my dad as well, I mean, I watched that guy for over, well, my entire childhood, and I think for the last 30-odd years of his life, go into the same job and get up every morning and go and do his job. And he would have like a three-hour commute round trip five days a week. And he would always make it to anything we needed him to be at, whether it was the ice rink for mine or my brother's hockey, whether it was the soccer field.

It was my sister's figure skating she did for a couple years or her soccer. Like we, he was just like, he was like that dependability in our, they were both dependable. But my dad was always the one who was making sure that we were getting where we needed to be if my mom couldn't or something. And, you know, they were both working parents. And that put some responsibility on me and my siblings growing up, being the oldest. Not that I had to do it all the time, but there was definitely days where

I would have to kind of look after them and cook the dinners and stuff like that. And they were always easy enough to get along with if we weren't fighting and bickering. But they've both, both my siblings are pretty cool young people now too. My sister's actually also a CDA, so following my mom's footsteps. I think she took some inspiration from how badass our mom can be sometimes and my little brother he's he just turned 20 the other day so he's getting his stuff figured out he's working at a door factory right now and you know i've watched him get up whenever i'm back here i've watched him get up every day and go handle that job like he should and he got like some of his buddies into that job and everything and now he's moving on to school in the fall but um you know the

you know i can both say i'm super proud of both of them kind of being their older brother watching them kind of grow up and the super cool thing is not following my path exactly, like, you know, being the oldest sometimes. So for better and for worse, sometimes you're that example setter, but I've gotten to watch them both take on their own roles and, like, become their own people, which has been really cool. What was that like to be kind of the oldest and be in that circumstance? Sometimes it was really annoying. I know sometimes it's dressed me out, and I think I took it out on my brother and my sister when we were like teenagers and stuff like that. But now, that I'm an adult, like I wouldn't change it for anything. It was kind of, it was a little

nerve-wracking and sometimes kind of weird being the first one to kind of go out. And you didn't really have, like I didn't really have an example. I kind of did what I thought I needed to do. Like, I didn't go straight into university. I did construction after high school before I went back. So I kind of, I feel like I kind of stumbled into what I found. And I didn't really have that person who was just a couple years ahead of me kind of to take inspiration either good or bad from, I kind of was the one who was setting that. But again, as I get older and kind of get more comfortable with that, like it was also kind of a pretty cool opportunity to get to do that as the older sibling. And yeah, I don't know. It was just, it's something that

I've really grown into being proud of a role of being like that. That's awesome. And so please continue so you're now going to consider going to university what was that process like and hopefully that this can lead into you were at one point a painter yeah yeah yeah um so after high school like i again very typical like i was 15 16 and i started working at McDonald's that was my first job before that i was like mowing lawns of my grandma's house and kind of some of the neighbors and stuff like that whenever i could and then McDonald's was my first job and then after high school like I had so many ideas that I really didn't know which one to pick, but I didn't really want to take the traditional path at that time. Like, I wanted to be a writer or a journalist.

Photography was always on my mind, but I hadn't been practicing it enough at that point. And at the same time, like, I was also thinking about maybe the military would be a good smart route to go. maybe the RCMP one day I did a youth camp in high school and stuff like that so I was kind of at this place where I didn't really have any solid idea and I couldn't justify spending money on something that wouldn't pay off like random courses so I did construction and I learned a lot of great things like how to properly use tools and stuff like that I do appreciate working with my hands and being creative that way but man I was so slow like no matter how hard I tried I just couldn't get passionate

about it. And I'm like, I'm not the biggest most masculine dude. I'll be the first thing to say that. So I got like teased and pushed around pretty good on the site, being 18 years old, whatever. But I got like after like maybe eight or nine months, I got a little bit tired of it. And the school year was kind of coming up. And my bosses were always good to me. They were, they were actually pretty decent guys to work for us. I'll give them full credit there. And what happened with that job was business had kind of really slowed. And we were like literally sweeping houses for like a month just trying to find work. So finally my boss kind of came and talked to me.

He's like, hey, I know you want to go back to school in the fall. You've talked about it. We have to downsize. You're the new guy. So you're kind of the first on the cutting block. But we're going to lay you off so that you can like collect the eye and stuff like that. And, you know, we want to see you go to school. And we know this isn't where you want to like this isn't your career path.

So they were super understanding. And I got laid off from. there and then like a couple weeks later I went to Manning Park and I got a job there that a new company had just bought in the business up there like the hotel and the stores in the park area so they were looking for all new employees I got hired and went up there for four months and became really good friends with a lot of people there's a lot of different walks of life up there there was maybe like a hundred of us all together but I got really close with particularly a couple of university students from out towards Vancouver and they kind of really

opened my eyes to what university can be, what you can evolve it into, and kind of the potential that exists out there. So they kind of inspired me after that summer to take some courses at UFV is where I started. And from there, I did a mixture of I was working part-time jobs. I was taking part-time courses, like blending school and work together. I think at one point I was even working at a window factory doing night shifts from like 1030 to 6, but then from 5.30 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. I was doing math class. And then I'd go and have a quick break and then drive straight to work. Wow. Out in a different, out in Langley. So it was I was always kind of hustling between work and school. But with the painting, it was, it was window

cleaning, but it was with college pro painters. But I was running a window cleaning business. That was an opportunity that came up through school. And I kind of had in my head, like maybe I should like learn some business and marketing skills like who knows when i'll kind of need these so it's a franchise disclaimer i'm not very pro college pro at all i'm actually quite against it at this point of my life um but i did it i was like 21 maybe and you know there was this promise of you're a young ambitious like college student let's get you a business up and running let's go and do this um so what it was was i had i had the franchise under my name i was operating in chila and I was working for the window cleaning side of the college pro painters.

So I was responsible for hiring my own staff, doing the taxes, the marketing, the door-to-door sales, meeting weekly goals and quotas, answering to my manager and stuff like that. And over the summer, I built a small team, and we had actually, I joined forces with another person who was doing college pro, and we had operated from Chilliwack, or from like Hope all the way to Vancouver because we kind of had all that territory but they teach you briefly how to clean windows and operate ladders and stuff like that so I would never do it again but I'm glad that I did because I kind of learned those marketing skills and the effort you put in like you can make your own dollars if you put in the right amount of effort or enough effort so I gained a lot of valuable

skills from it which actually ties over into my ability to market and promote and be just personal when it comes to my photography so it kind of came full circle like that um yeah and then what didn't you like about them what was where did the issues arise honestly like it came down to the training and responsibility um we were operating um ladders and we were going up onto roofs and attaching ourselves to like we we were given like harnesses and ladders and equipment to go and operate on two, three-story homes, or three-story homes, I should say, to do the window cleaning. But we were given like six hours of proper practice and training. And I didn't know how to set up my harness to the roof. I didn't know, I barely knew how to properly set up

ladders. Like we did a couple online courses through WCB or whatever. But they kind of just, they kind of just really threw us to the wolves and didn't provide a whole thing. whole lot of, the only guidance I remember ever really getting was hit your quotas. And then me being me, I fought with my manager a lot because he wanted me to let go of one of my employees. I'd only hired one at this point because I promised them that I was going to pay $15 an hour because she was a student as well. I'm like, I wouldn't clean windows for minimum. Well, I mean, I would if I had to, obviously. But I want to help her pay for schooling. I promised her a job. But he wanted me to fire her because I was paying too much.

much, but I'd already made that promise to her that I was going to keep her around for the summer and she'd have a good job. So we argued a lot about that because he wanted me to make bigger quotas and have larger profit margins for myself, but I wasn't willing to like compromise breaking a promise to somebody because she was also somebody I'd known for quite a while too. So there's just like some ethics and just the lack of accountability and training. And I started reading up on the stories of the company themselves and it just, I think they're actually gone now. I don't think they exist anymore because of lawsuits and stuff from what I've heard. But I just felt woefully unprepared for any of the work that I was doing.

And as much as I got good feedback from customers, there was a lot of times I was like, I don't know why I'm doing this. Like, why did they tell me that I would be, like, why was I encouraged to book this particular property when I have no idea how to navigate the house? Why do you care about this lady that you hired? like I'm obviously playing devil's advocate but I want you to explain why why did that matter to you your young person you're trying to make your own go you're trying to start your own business why is this person's education and their interests why is this so you're willing to risk your relationship with this organization for this one person what what was that about because you trusted me and there's one thing I've kind of developed with myself it's I'll always be on the side of

like my coworkers or my people then on the side of like management or the higher ups maybe that's just my personal thing but I made a promise to her like right at the beginning of the season that like we're going to have a good fun full summer of work we're going to work outdoors you're going to make enough to pay for your school I'm going to make enough to pay for my school we're going to have a good time this beats any kind of whatever customer service or anything other job that we might have to go to for the summer let's make this work and And when push came to shove, like, the first thing I was recommended to do was, like, fire her.

And I was like, no, she's the first person. She was the first person besides you to trust me in this business. I'm not going to throw that aside. That's not the kind of person I want to be. That's not what I want to do to somebody. And, yeah, just those two things, not who I want to be and not what I want to do to this person. I just think that that's so important because that's really what this is about is that I don't, I get hesitant on moving too much towards role.

models are famous people or people that you know. It's that you're a role model in these moments that you make these decisions. You set the example for this other person. And I don't know where this lady has ended up or what she's gone on to do. She's doing her master's out east now. But I'm sure that that was a huge statement to her and a reflection of her confidence in society when you chose to stand by her and support her despite pressure not to. And despite perhaps reasons to the contrary to maybe let her go because that sounds like it would have improved your profit margin so it would have meant you had more money in your pocket so you were willing to sacrifice that for your word and I think that that's really what I'm trying to pull out of this for people

is that there are there are some people that have wanted to come on who have been like I'm don't you know what my name is or don't you know who I am and it's like right but I'm looking not for the person who's got the crazy credentials or just the university education to pat them on the back. This is about finding those intricle moments. And I never know for sure. Like, I can never know exactly what the soul, the deep down motivations of people are

until I have the conversation. So it's part risk. But when I saw that grad photos approach, that initiative that you took, it spoke to me of who you are. And so having these small stories that kind of arise that show, like you're connected, you're marrying somebody who, by your own,

definition is one of the most ethical, moral people that you know and that is working hard to share her morals with the world. Like, this is consistency. There's no switching sides. There's no, yeah, and then I fired this lady because I wanted to make more money. Like, there's no switching of the story. And that's what I want people to pull out of conversations that I have is that it's this consistency that I love to see where it's like that some people might not care. But to me, that really speaks to your character. So, but please continue. I just, I think that's so important for people to understand. Thank you. And, and with that saying, like, I am, by no means anywhere close to a perfect person. I don't, same thing. I don't think there is anything as perfect. I've made

plenty of mistakes in my life and have not been perfect. But I just think, like, those situations when it comes to that, the hiring of that person and keeping them on, and then the grad photos, Like those are just opportunities where I can try and reach and exercise the type of person I want to be. And I think that's kind of what those situations always or should call for and what you should strive to be. Obviously, you can't always be like that. But those are those two instances are just opportunities I can think of. They're like, okay, this is the kind of person I want to be. I want to practice that through these challenges or these situations.

So just to say that, like, by no means perfect. But if there's the opportunity to practice the person you want to be, like you got to take it. but yeah um but yeah after after college pro i kind of really started to how did that end how did that come oh yeah come to fruition um me and my like co-franchise owner person who we'd become pretty close to like close after that uh we finished up our contract with them we did the remaining jobs we had on the houses and everything and then we called it quits we said never again and you know we shook hands and let went separate ways and stuff like that but i knew i never wanted to set foot in that kind of situation again, which got me seriously actually finally considering a real

route that I could take. And I'd always wanted to do something in geography or earth sciences or something like that, just again, from that love for national geographic and travel and also just like caring about the environment and like how we're treating it and being stewards and stuff. Where did that passion come from? What made you pick up the national geographics? the earliest thing I can remember was my granddad he was a very avid reader both my grandparents were but i just remember he would bring me like nat geo kids magazines and he kind of quizzed me questions on it like what kind of lizard is this or like can you name this owl which country do you think this picture is from and those are like some of my earliest reading memories and i think that just like

that i still have a subscription to nat geo today like as much as their quality is changing and blah blah Like, it's just something that's always been very close to my heart. And consistently reading about, like, not so much like the dire situations, but there's one thing that Geo used to do really well. It was showcasing the problem solvers. Like, you would look at people who were solving the energy crisis in rural African, or African villages with renewable energy resources or building electrical grids or finding ways to purify water or to re-green. space and reverse desertification like these were people I just I really admire community problem solvers and that carried over into eventually doing a degree in geography was because I saw it as an opportunity to become one of those people like I want to better the community somehow

it doesn't have to be through creating new jobs or one-on-one health care or teaching but if I can like at the time it was like if I could do something that was solving a community issue like preserving more water or preserving more parkland and open space for people. That became like a pretty big like operating thought, I guess you can say for me. Like it was kind of driving me. So that eventually led into my degree, which I did at Vancouver Island University. And that's where I kind of really, I was never the most academically inclined kid in high school. Like I think I cared more about my friends and having fun than I did getting the best grades. I really like social studies and writing and being creative in like film class and stuff

like that. I loved it. But and I never, after high school, I never actually thought of, never actually really saw myself getting an actual degree. I just didn't think it was in my blood or my bones. But along the line, I pulled myself like, do it to prove yourself wrong. So I ended up getting my degree. I just got and I graduated again 2020 with the start of everything. Um, but that was like a very, a very challenging, but also very, there was so much growth within those few years. I was at VAU for three years finishing up. And there was like so much growth there because I took my grades seriously. I took my education seriously. I met a lot of great people, like mine did, different minds, like just pretty, I got a pretty well-rounded group of friends and like

peers and training members out of it but why did you switch between ufee and victoria um i think just because i needed i've always wanted to live on the island i like ever since i was like 11 or 12 years old i wanted to go spend time out there i really i love love the island and the lifestyle out there um and also like i felt a little bit stagnant i was getting a little bit tired of chillowac i think just being young and restless and wanting to try somewhere else So I just needed, like, that change of scenery and, like, to help really mark a new chapter. So, and it was, so I moved up to Nanaimo and went to VIU there and got to, like, really kind of exercise this, like, person I wanted to be over the next couple of years, which simultaneously gave me a lot more respect and a newfound love for Chilliwack. So I was really glad that I moved out, but also I see Chilawak in a different way now that I don't think I would have had I stayed here.

Right. And I've heard that reiterated because of the idea is you. let go of what you need to, and then it might come back to you. And so that relationship. And so what was that education experience? Like, what, what made you not feel like you weren't academically inclined? Was it just grades that were indicating to you that you weren't inclined to be a great student? Or was it, what made it not enticing? And then what made you say, you know what, prove yourself wrong? Yeah. I think it was my lack of, I have a real hard time sitting, still in trying to study and concentrating for long periods of time. If I'm going to be focused on something, I like to have my whole body moving,

which is what photography does for me. It has my mind and my body moving. But if I'm sitting at a desk, I find I get too distracted. I look for anything else to do. Homework is punishment. Like, if I'm not getting paid for it, why am I doing it? And I just, again, because I never really wanted, I knew deep down I didn't really want the traditional career path. I wanted to kind of forge my own thing.

I guess university always signified that step into an eventual nine to five office job, which ironically enough is what I'm working now. So go figure. But the thing that eventually led me to it was, okay, I want to learn. I want to challenge my own thoughts. I want to gain a more worldly understanding of things around me and beyond me. I want to exercise my ability to write to be a critical. thinker, to present, to exercise my passion for things like geography. And I want to do that

in a classroom setting where I do have to have that structure because I'm bad at structure, so I needed it. And I just wanted to prove to myself that if I actually did set my mind to something, that I could get it done. Because it was at that point, it had been a while since I had any, like, real set goal that I wanted to accomplish. And I just, I latched on to my education. I was like, you know what? There are so many worlds that exist where then you would never accomplish it. Just go out and do it. Yeah. And then that's what I did? And so what has that experience been like your, so you attained your bachelor's degree? And now you're in your master's program. Yeah. Yeah. So I did my bachelor's and it ended up being like it was super challenging as it

is for most people, right? Like it's a challenging experience. But I got some awesome opportunities out of it. My last, second last, yeah, I guess my last year there, I won a Queen Elizabeth scholarship, which is like a nationwide scholarship, and it's intended for students to get to go an internship and volunteer abroad

with organizations that they've partnered with. So I won that, and I got to go to Vietnam, to Hanoi, Vietnam for a summer for about four months. And I worked with like a local, nonprofit, the center for sustainable rural development. So they partnered with like rural villages

in the countryside in Vietnam and making their in helping them increase like their sustainability and making sure that the new business practices weren't destroying their villages or displacing people and just trying to partner with them so they could like protect their ways in a healthy, sustainable manner.

And that was just really cool because I got to like work alongside Vietnamese locals and I got insight into what the work culture is, the level of intelligence that exists and these kind of organizations and see what the world was like outside of the Western workplace. And that was just like a fantastic. I also got to practice my photography a lot out there. And some of my favorite photos I've ever taken are from my time out there. Tell us more. Yeah. So yeah, so got the scholarship, got the internship opportunity. But the crazy thing is, is I was actually supposed to go, like, just to back up. I was supposed to go to Sri Lanka. And I was set to fly out to Sri Lanka about seven or eight days after the Easter terror attacks happened there. It was the bombing in, I think it was Colombo, that Easter weekend. And they shut down the country after that event. But I was about a week out from flying. And so when that happened, they were evacuating Canadian citizens from the country.

And when that happened, my whole opportunity got frozen. So I'd worked for about a year trying to get this scholarship because it was like a series of interviews, of essays, of writing, of, it's just a whole long process. And I was like super bummed. But like four days later, they secured me a spot in Vietnam. And about maybe a week later, I was on the plane to Vietnam instead of Sri Lanka. So it all happened super, super quick, but ended up being one of the best things that could have happened. I met some awesome people out there who I became friends with through this job. Like, I became friends with a couple locals out there.

And we would hang out and go, they would show me all, like, the insider stuff and just go to, like, other people's houses for dinners and understand the culture and, like, the philosophies and stuff out there more. But it was just, like, a beautiful experience. Again, like, I love traveling and I've always been partial to wanting to see other parts of the world. world and getting to live in another country was very humbling because all of a sudden I'm the outsider I'm the one who can't speak the language I'm the one who doesn't know the customs I'm the one who's going to get sick from the food I'm the one who's going to get lost and confused and taken advantage of so that was a very very humbling experience I mean I I had people who were willing to help me out I had people who laughed at me I got robbed like I had I had the whole

palette while I was out there how did you almost get robbed or how did you get you So they have the equivalent of like an Uber but they have what out in Asia it's called grab and Vietnam the scooter and the moped rules the road so that's what I commuted on every day

like I rode the scooter two to three four times a day and I'd gotten too comfortable and too lazy and I called it grab one day and I saw a guy with a grab jacket they wear like green jackets disclaimer you can buy those jackets from pretty much any like vendor in the city so anybody can be wearing them.

So I got on this guy's bike and what you're supposed to do is you verify your route by showing each other your phones and you'll get like a passcode so he'll enter like the passcode into my phone it'll unlock it, it'll verify that he's my driver.

This guy pulls out like an old Nokia phone, keyboard and everything so you couldn't even open up the app on it if you wanted. I pointed where I was going. He said yes I wasn't thinking it was after work. I had my work backpack on, my laptop, my camera, everything in there, got on his bike, and get onto the main highway, and instead of going north, he takes me directly south.

And right there, I'm like, oh, I'm not going the right way. This could go bad really quick. And I kept telling him, I'm like, turn around, turn around, turn around. He's like, no, no, no, shortcut, shortcut. Takes me down, like 10 minutes south, pulls off, and it's just this really dark hidden alley. And we drove into the middle of it. And there's, like, houses all around it. There's lots of people there.

So I didn't think too much of it. Pull off. And I couldn't even get off the bike when there was, like, seven or eight guys, like, so close to me that I couldn't, like, move my arms. And they kept doing this to me, which is, like, pay up, pay up, give me money. And I said, no, I was like, wrong bike. I told him, it was like, wrong bike. No, no, I'm not paying. And they started, like, reaching into my pockets and stuff and, like, grabbing anything that I could.

I always keep, when I travel, I keep, like, fake money for these. kind of situations in my pockets, like the equivalent of like two or three dollars Canadian and tell them that's all I have on me. I had like a thousand dollars worth of tech in my backpack and I think I had like 400 Canadian dollars worth of Vietnamese dong hidden in there too. So I put my backpack on the front of me. I pulled out like 20, 30,000 Vietnamese dong, which is like a few bucks and told them that's all I had and I gave it to them. And then they were like going for my backpack. So it's on my front. And all I could do was. I had to get myself off my bike and use my backpack to, like, barrel through them.

So I pushed through them. They weren't, like, grabbing me or holding me back or anything, which was good. But they were, like, hands were in my pockets and stuff like that. And I had to, like, keep everything closed. And then there was an actual grab driver who was on his bike. And he saw what was going on. So he waved me over. And I was like, oh, I don't want to do this again.

Like, this is going to be another situation. But I walked over and he actually pulled out the app and he was legit and we verified the rides. and then as the guys are yelling at me I got on the back of his bike and he actually took me back home wow how scared were you like were you were nervous about your safety or was this just like a common

I wasn't nervous about my safety only because A, I'm a guy and B it was like 6 o'clock in the evening and there was like 50 other people around so if you had to started screaming you know somebody would have done something or at least told them just to back off this was 2 a.m. in an alley and I was alone

and I probably would have been much, I would have been much, much more scared. And, like, when situations, like, I definitely felt shaken up after the event, but during it, like, I just kind of, like, shut off and was like, just get through this. But afterwards, I was, like, a little shaken for sure. Wow. But it could have been so much worse. I lost a couple bucks and got pushed around a little bit, but it was, and again, it was a learning lesson because it was me just being lazy with my verifying and getting taken advantage

of as being an outsider. Right. So. And what other experiences did you have? although that one kind of takes the cake yeah yeah um other experiences like that was really the only bad one you said you did photography there how what was that experience like did you it was a tough of fun okay tell yeah the photography was a great experience um completely opposite to that experience and this was a lesson that i took i learned from it in my photography in

general was i was down in hoyan which is kind of like it's known as like the city of tailors so it's where you get like your suits and stuff made and we were down there exploring and there's a there's a type of seller there who are typically women and they're known as fruit ladies and they sell like fresh fruit on the streets they haul them around on like their baskets and like bars across their bag hoisting with like pounds and pounds of fruit and they sell them all day so we encountered one and she asked us if we wanted to buy fruit and normally i say no and if unless i want it but um something about her it was just like I want to talk to her.

And it was my friend, his name is Mitchell. He was from Ontario. He was my roommate that I went down with. And he was like totally came to chat with her and stuff. And what we did was we just talked with her for a little bit. She knew a tiny bit of English. We knew a little bit of Vietnamese. And so we were exchanging like smiles and talking.

And as we got more comfortable, I asked her if I could take her photo. And by this point, like she was like super smiley and just like big, big beautiful smile, very open to us. and I took her photos and afterwards we like repay I repaid her with letting me take her photos by buying like a ton of fruit off of her that we could eat so it was like a very reciprocal relationship she let me take her photos this could have been her plan all along she probably saw like a dumb tourist with his camera and she's like I'm going to get this sucker but it worked out and she was really really pleasant we chatted for me like no more than 10 minutes but I got back and I looked at the photos that and like it's one of my favorite ones it's just her up close big honest smile looking into the camera her like hat and her workwear is all on and it was just like such a such a great photo but then also back to that point of like because i had such a fun encounter with her i remember that every time i look at that photo right so that was like probably the best photography experience but it also like going around a city as busy and as hectic and as crazy as hanoi like

nine million people live in that city. You see a lot. Like, I got pictures of people getting tattoos on the side of the road, people and like their festivities, just cruising. I got a photo that I really like of me on the back of a moped, like around midnight when everything like really shuts down. And there was a group of like young people in their 20s, probably around my age, like five mopeds all around us. And they were all paired up and they were all like looking at me. I mean, I was kind of waving, like pointing at my camera, and they all got together, and I took the camera, that picture of them in front of me, kind of, it kind of looks like we're riding as like a gang.

Very cool photo. I put like a slow shutter speed on it, so I got some motion blur and everything, but just like moments like that, you capture and just people are pretty, like, for that one encounter of like the being robbed, I think almost every other tourist will have an encounter like that. That's just the name of the game. It's anywhere you go in the world. but other than that like I had a really fun time interacting with people out there

like they want to know where you're from they want to talk to you they want to practice English and a lot of people who asked to chat with me just to practice English and I got invited to people's houses for dinner so that we could talk in English like literally so that they could practice and they made like I watched them for like two hours make this big beautiful meal of just local Vietnamese food and then all I had to do was talk English with them. Wow. Yeah. What was that, what was that like to have dinner with them and to get to know them through the lens of doing these, this photography with people that you're doing grad photos for? Like, how did that compare or what were the similarities of differences? Yeah, it was,

it was just a lot of fun. Like, it was very fun. They were like university students. And so we got to talk about school and how much we hated school and like how silly sometimes we thought it was. but it was just great. It was, I'm such a believer that you can sit, like food is such a great connector for people. Like getting to sit down and have a meal with somebody is just like. So here's an interesting point to build on that. I listen to the Dark Horse podcast, which has Brett Weinstein and Heather Hying, they're evolutionary biologists. Okay.

They're coming up with a book soon. It's called a hunter gatherer's guide to the 21st century. Oh, cool. And so one of their parts is about food. Yeah. And they rip into our mindset on. food right now because our mindset on food right now is purely nutrients and there's almost zero evidence to support the fact that humans ever ate for purely nutrient based reasons

we eat to connect to bond to learn about people to have new experiences to um like there's an instinct within us to when somebody does you a big favor that you want to buy them lunch or coffee or food and that has been that way since the beginning of like hunter gatherers totally and so that deep relationship with food, just to your point, is absolutely true. And I'm looking, they haven't released the book yet, but I'm looking forward to that book because they bring a different perspective on the day to day because my mindset was definitely like, well, where's my protein and my carbohydrates and what are these things? And how do I make sure that I'm, I've got all those nutrients in my body?

And they're putting back in that, like, well, now our mindset is like, we just want McDonald's or A&W or whatever. the quick food is. And they were also talking about how our palettes have over simplified in North America because we don't have a mixture and a, like a tying in of different flavors. Like when you think, like our bodies are so simplified to the point where you think salty, you think McDonald's. And that's why people have McDonald's cravings is because their palate isn't developed enough to want spicy or spicy mixed with sweet or savory or like all these things tied together. We're really lacking that in North America. So I'd shout out to Brett Weinstein and Heather Hying. And to your

point, that is something that humans have developed on. And like indigenous people, we have potlucks and we have get togethers where we celebrate. And there's a reason that we all get together and have dinner and say grace and connect over dinner and Thanksgiving and Christmas. We connect. We have dinner. We celebrate things that way. And I think that the problem is we're moving farther away from that. Like, now it's like, how do I get the quickest? How do I drive while eating? Yeah. That's probably the wrong mindset. So, but please continue about what it was like to have dinner with the Vietnamese. Yeah. Just before I get back to that, just to the whole McDonald's thing in Vietnam, like the best thing I read while I was out there was that McDonald's was actually

failing in the country because people preferred to go to their street vendors for food. They preferred to go to the mom and pop shops on the side of the road because they made better food. and food is such a strong part of Vietnamese culture that like you're bringing in McDonald's why it's 10 times the price of the bowl of five I can get or buncha I can get like on the side of the road that's so cool here and that was fun to listen to I hope that comes to Canada and Northern yeah yeah totally

totally but yeah having food with these people was awesome like again it was all homemade and all we did we just sat on the floor and put the spread out on the ground and sat in a circle. And I was there with some of my co-workers as well because they had known the people. And one of the girls there, she was kind of a bit of a de facto English teacher.

She was kind of teaching everybody there. So we'd go in a circle and kind of describe our favorite, or give the title of our favorite movie, our favorite color, the place that we wish we could travel to next. And we just got to bond over those like lighthearted things while we're passing each other like spring rolls and different types of,

food and handing it all off to each other and it was just great because i think we sat down there for a good two hours just letting the time pass and just slowly filling our plates and our mills full of food um so it's just a really good experience because yeah like having some travel under my belt outside of like the west i think food gets a much more respectable um and much more coveted like there's a much better attitude towards food and it beyond just being either quick and tasty or a nutrient rich. Like, I joke around about this,

but I also very, very, very deeply believe it that food serves two purposes, one for the body, one for the soul. Like sometimes you got to eat for what feels good. You think of what the Bible says. It's man cannot live on bread alone. Yeah.

That's a deep idea within the biblical series. And so that idea has held true for a very, very long time. Totally. And I think most people will say, we'll totally agree with that too. Like, it's just, yeah, I don't know, outside of the West, like food just gets a different attitude,

and you saw that in Vietnam and just getting to sit with people, like, I think because of it, we bonded in ways we wouldn't have bonded in if we were just talking on the side of the road. Right. So it was just a very cool experience. What do you think about Western society in comparison, just in regards to that connectivity? Because right now it feels like we're more disconnected than ever, and I know people say that all the time, but you look at how we eat, how we talk. We have these surface level conversations that we consider deep conversations now.

Like, what did you see there that's missing perhaps from Canada? Yeah. It's kind of funny what I saw there because there was a mix. I'll start with kind of the not great side, I guess I should say. And I only mean this in the sense of there's a lot of younger folks there who lived in multi-generational homes who wished that they had the privacy in the space that we covet here out in the West. They're like, oh, I can't wait to move out of my parents' place. I can't wait to have my own apartment. I can't wait to just eat dinner by myself and watch TV. So it was

really interesting hearing that aspect of it. But the thing that I saw that I just, I so wish could come back, would make a comeback here or would grow was just the way that they slow down. I worked in an office job, nine to five, but every lunch we met together. We had an in-cook house or an in-house cook who would prepare our meals like that was her full-time job she'd go out in the morning and collect food from the local vendors and the food stalls make a different fresh meal every day and for 45 minutes to an hour we all sat down and we talked about the workday we talked about our families we they taught me Vietnamese I taught them English like every single day Monday to Friday we did that together as a work

crew and then we went up and we napped for another half an hour to 45 minutes like we literally turned off the lights in our office, turned off our computer screens, leaned back in our chairs for like 45 minutes. Or if I wasn't feeling like a nap, I'd go out for a walk. And we went back and we finished up our work. There was no coffee breaks or we didn't talk in between. Like everybody was at their desk. But you get like an hour and a half to two hours of eating good food, resting your body, doing your job. And sometimes people would stay late. Sometimes they'd go home to their family. And just seeing that kind of that kind of slow down. And people, like, the thing that I kind of started to understand was that maybe it's just me. I grew up with the mindset of like, oh, work has to be like my passion. It has to be my, everything has to surround my work. And there's a, don't get me wrong. There's lots of ambitious people anywhere in the world you go. And I had some of my coworkers had dreams of being some kind of lawyer for the environment or moving up in the NGO world.

But at the end of the day, the job was just something that, um, they got to practice some of their skills and the things they cared about, but that supplemented the rest of their lifestyle. It was like the job was the foundation for the rest of their lives. Yeah, not the reverse, which is Canada, where the job is paramount. Yeah, yeah. Like, I just, comparing it to, like, my own high school experiences, like something like the trades and stuff were never really advertised to me.

It was always go to university or bust. And then you go to university, you're told that you're going to become somebody big or that you need to start your own world-changing foundation or go, like, joke about working 80 hours a week and sleeping three hours a night. Like, that is just so, to me, that's become so backwards, even though that's a lifestyle I lived for a little bit. I just, I started to just really look at that and be like, this isn't sustainable. Like, we're kind of really prioritizing the wrong things a lot of the time here. And it would just be nice if we could understand that slowing down doesn't have to be a

bad thing. Yeah, I don't disagree. We live in a society where the bragging rights is I'm busy and everybody says it no matter whether or not they're not that busy or that they're they are actually busy like our currency right now it definitely feels like is um oh i stayed up all night studying for this exam rather than i got the best sleep and i'm going to kill this exam because my like i've gotten a good night's rest in order to do well on my exam the the mindset is all backwards right now and it's very concerning and that's why part of the podcast i want to focus on family like that's why i kind of inquired more about Because we get into this, like, I have a great parents and, like, they're all very nice to me and they all love me. And, like, I had a good upbringing. And it's like, well, who were they? And how did that impact you? Because we get so quick into the, well, this is my career and these are my athletes and these are my diplomas and degrees. And it's like, that should all serve the purpose of going home to your family. Yeah. And I think that that's something that's really lacking in our communities. Yeah, definitely. And like, we just tie our worth of our sense of self-worth and our identity to, like,

like what our job title is. And when the reality is, I think, for so few people that actually works, like, most of us do end up working a job that maybe pays the bills and that we can feel decent at more so than living our dream career or dream job, whatever that might be. But, yeah, like, there's just, I don't know, I've gotten really tired of the idea. Like, I'm always curious about what people do because I think that does explain a little bit of, like, what their interests or what their path has been. but you can be the nicest accountant in the world or you can be the biggest dink of like a firefighter and I'm going to rather be friends with a nice accountant any time of the day than like the biggest think of whatever honorable position they might have right like it's your personality should always take precedent over what your job role right might be and I think

and not that everybody thinks this way but I think there's a good number of people who base a lot of who you are based on what your 9 to 5 is. I don't disagree. And I tried to do the reverse, which is I really try and support people who say my goal is to go home to my family after this. Like through the legal world, there's a lot of people who brag about that 80-hour work week. So I'm always looking for those people who have the mindset of like, this is all fine and dandy

and I'll do my job and I'll do it to the best of my ability while I'm here. But my priority is to bring home a paycheck to my family, which is where I'd way rather be. And that always goes to like, okay, I trust you a little bit more and now that you've said that. Yeah, yeah, totally. I think it makes people sound more human and more honest. Like, I think it's totally okay to come into your workplace, do a good honest job, and then leave at the end of the day to go home to your real priority. Which sounds like your dad definitely played that role for you.

For sure. For sure. Yeah. They both did. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I think, yeah, it just gives me, I just, I hear when people have prioritized that over, like, I want to make partner or I want to be CEO.

When, like, go for it. If that's your goal, if that's what your life has driven you to want to go do, go chase it. Like, sure, why not? Why not? But I will always connect to the person more who's like, yeah, the job's cool. But, like, I do it for my family. I do it for my hobbies. I do it for my lifestyle.

It just feels more human. I don't disagree. Is there any other stories you can share from going to, from traveling, I guess, more broadly? Yeah, just, um, I won't, I won't dive into like any other, like, any other, like, super in-depth stuff. but just like the lessons I took I took from traveling because I could be here all day only because I can be here all day

but there's just like so many lessons of like blowing apart stereotypes and like dismantling your own worldview of what you think things should be I'll use like maybe masculinity is one of the things I really came to better understand because of travel but you know growing up in like a smaller working town

or working class town you have those kind of traditional ideas of masculinity like good ones for the most part like you know work hard provide um but then also like you get those like less than ideal traits like showmanship and you always have to be stronger or better than anybody else or if you don't fit this one little mold of what a man is then you're not really a man you're kind of like an outcast to that um but getting to travel and meet particularly guys around my age and older from different parts of the world and what they idealized you're like oh.

what I grew up in was just one very tiny fractional piece of what people think like masculinity is. I met guys who were typical, like did my, or not typical, but guys who did their time in the military, guys who were first responders. I met guys who were artists. I met somebody who wanted to do his PhD on coffee beans, like people with all different hobbies and passions and ideas of, like, it just really rounded out my idea of what being like a man meant. And that's just like one of examples like lifestyle priorities what people value it just you start to understand that like there's so many different ideals in this world and it really stems from your environment and where you come from and if you want to change them then you can like what you grow up with or

what you're in the middle of now doesn't have to be the only way that you think believe or feel and traveling has really, really opened that up for me. And I think that's one of the best parts is just having conversations with people from all around the world. That's awesome. And so where did you go after that? You come back to Canada.

You're doing this job now. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. So I came back and then finished out my school year and my plan was to not actually go into my master's right away. I wanted to do some more travel or maybe get a work a full-time job for a little bit and figure things out.

but obviously like the pandemic hit and travel stopped and yeah so this last september i started my master's program it was master's of community planning and i did my first semester of it but i've put it on hold since then because it just didn't feel like the right timing and i'm kind of reprioritizing some things but i put it on hold because now i'm working in i'm working a local government job and it is focused on climate change and like outreach to residents and stuff like that So I'm still doing a little bit of that, like, community building and trying to bring people together over actual easy and accessible ways to help preserve our environment a little bit. And that's my day job. That's like my Monday to Friday.

And I do the photography on all of my spare time, the weekends and times after work and stuff like that. Can you tell us in 15 words or less all about climate change? I'm just kidding. But can you can you tell us a little bit about, from your. perspective climate change because I think we get fed a lot of information and I think it'd be valuable to your perhaps your perspective. Yeah, like I'm by no means an expert, but I have for sure spent a lot of my degree studying it and stuff. And the overall thing I can say is it is just such a complicated issue. Like it's, there's so many different parts, like so many different running

pieces that hinder and just exacerbate the effects of climate change. And it's no secret. it's just there's no secret at this point that we have had such a profound impact on the environment around us, whether it's resource extraction or human development or infrastructure, like whatever it might be. We fundamentally like altered the planet and unfortunately not for the better. And it sucks because I so firmly believe in like grassroots organizations and I think that these people really, really care. And I see a lot of great work both inside my government job and just from my education community roles um and it's sad because it sometimes feels like as a normal person even as like a community or a city or a province like you ultimately

feel powerless against the changes that are occurring and those with like the resources that are actually profoundly impacting things but um i still i still see hope in like the everyday person And people are trying to make changes, whether they're perfect or imperfect changes. Like, there's that whole university discussion of wicked solutions. And one solution creates another problem. And then solving that problem creates another problem, et cetera, et cetera. But the long short of it is just like it's a complicated issue. And I hope we don't give up anytime soon.

Yeah, I don't disagree. I don't like when I hear that it's settled science. I think it's settled that we're having an impact, but I don't know exactly what that impact looks like. Yeah. And I get a little bit hesitant when we put too much on, it feels like we're like, you know the idea of original sin. A little bit. Like the idea that like all people are just guilty. Like that we just have this intrinsic guilt.

Yeah. And it feels like we're very susceptible to taking that guilt, that just original guilt that we're born with and latching it to something. And I just see, to my concern, a lot of people feeling nihilistic and feeling so negative about things. And that that's just the one part that concerns me because you see the impacts corporations are making. And they're making far more of an impact than the average individual could ever make if they tried their hardest. Absolutely. And so I get worried when people are. And like, again, corporations have a vested interest in selling you a product that you think is going to help the environment.

Like, they have, if they put green or helping the environment on it, you're going to buy it. Yeah, because it dives into your optimism and hope and think and want to do something, right? Exactly. But it would be so misconstrued so, so easily. Well, and like Tom's is like an example of a shoe company that wanted to do some good. But they've also proven this business style of selling you on that you're doing something good. And my issue with that is not that I don't want people to do good for the environment. it's that I don't want people to be responsibly purchasing things

because they think that that gives them social clout to go out into their community and say, look at how much I care about the environment. It's like, well, did you really care about that or did you buy it so you could say you did? And there's a huge difference in that because being able to understand an issue and go, okay, this is climate change.

This is a serious issue. Who are the players in the game that are really trying to do good? What are the benefits? And how can I be a part of that? That's a great outlook. going to your store and just picking up whatever says eco-friendly on it, it's probably not that eco-friendly because there's not that incentive structure for them to be completely honest with you about the benefits. And so I see a lot of things that are like, well, how can like chlorine be

eco-friendly? Like, that's not good for fish or me or any, like, how could that be eco-friendly? And so we get into these weird areas of like kind of saying things or selling products based on the benefits to society and so I just I was learning a bit about that in business organizations that that's just a strategy for marketing and we forget that when we we start to take it on as like well look at how good I am I have things that are good for the environment in my closet and it's like you probably need to take more steps than just that yeah yeah absolutely like it you're right like sometimes it can be really easy to feel so nilistic over over the state of the environment and feeling just so powerless, no matter how many green or eco-friendly things you buy, right? Like, it's such a,

such an intricate and messy, like, situation and challenge. Sometimes, like, not that I'm, like, an extremist of anything by any means, but sometimes I just sit back and wonder, I'm like, do we have to, like, fundamentally change the entire system that we live under to actually make meaningful change? Because the same system that's causing all this damage is also selling us these solutions and sometimes just like are we ever actually going to do anything meaningful like you can look at simple products like a toothbrush and every toothbrush that's ever been made since it's been invented still exists on the planet because it's it's like it's like it doesn't break down within like a human life cycle right like that kind of plastic take hundreds and hundreds

and hundreds of years and it's just weird when you think of stuff like that like that the waste even though we get rid of it over mindsets, it's still there. It doesn't disappear. And it's just like, I don't know, sometimes it is easy to get really downhearted. But at the same time, it can feel really powering to at least take action in your community directly. Absolutely. And try and make sure that there isn't garbage going into your rivers and making sure that there isn't, like, impacts being made that you could actually make a difference in. But then I think of things like solar flyers. Like, I'm actually really worried because I guess, from my understanding, we're going to like a solar flare kind of season over the next five years.

Yeah, because it rotates like every 11 years, I think, like from lower to higher. And so I was just listening to someone and they were explaining, we don't know what the impacts are going to be. And we've not developed infrastructure to protect our electricity and our grids from solar flares. So we don't exactly know what the consequences are going to be. And then they use the reference of like a volcano that erupted in, I think, Europe that caused all types of shenanigans for all the planes because they never thought about what if His volcano erupted.

That was the Icelandic volcano, I think. Yeah. And that caused like a cool down. But yeah, it like messed up like airplane routes and it caused a lot of trouble. But you think like the people flying the planes would think, well, there's a volcano right here. Like we should be prepared for this. And the fact that they weren't prepared and they didn't have like a solid plan was just like a who's running the show?

Like who's in charge? Yeah. I want to ask about your recently engaged. Can you tell us how. you two met who she is and how that all came about yeah um first of all she's been one of my best friends for we met like in 2014 2015 how did you guys meet um we were both working so i just started working at the shiam center and the chalk landing leisure center where you and i met and um i was working there for a couple months she was just finishing up her university education and she was

coming she'd worked there previously what is her name by the way daniel okay yeah so daniel had just finished her education at SFU and she was coming back and she wasn't supposed to come back and work at the leisure center. She was working at the Shandar Hut serving and she slipped and broke her elbow. So she couldn't work there. So she decided to come back so she could still, you know, work and everything. So she came back to the Shiam Center and the Leisure Center, which is much easier to do with one arm. And her first shift back, I was, we were swapping spots. So I was just finishing my shift and she was coming back and we we met right there we just had like a brief chat and conversation and kind of like connected like you know when you like meet someone you're like

okay I'm going to become like at least friends with you like I want to get to know you more it was one of those situations and we kept hanging out throughout the course of our time there like when everybody out shifts together we get along really well and chat and talk and bond and there came point where like we were hanging outside of work and we were kind of on that verge of like we were good friends at this point we were kind of both into each other about to date but life just kind of happened and we had to go separate paths for a little bit um we're both young i'm still figuring my stuff out she was still frigging her next moves out so we went separate ways for a little bit there and i saw some other people and i did my own thing and she did her own thing and we came back like months and

months later at one of my birthday parties. I used to throw birthday parties with like my sham like co-workers and stuff like that. And I invited her back and she came back and we we reconnected there. And from there on, we just stayed like very platonic, really close good friends. I would eventually move to the island. She traveled and stayed in Chilliwack. And like for over those years, like the next like four or five years we always just stay connected like we would we would message each other every couple days just to see how we were doing to see what's up what how life is going um what was running through your mind during that period was it like just yeah just tell me what you what was your what was your thinking was it just like this is just a friend or yeah yeah yeah

like when we reconnected i was under the impression that like we're just friends now like they're really whatever was going to happen that moment is past we've moved beyond that but i I'm really, because we had that base friendship there at first, and I, I had just, my thought was, okay, like, that has passed. That is not the trajectory of our relationship, but we can come back and being friends, because that's what we had, um, as the baseline. And especially, like, me living on the island and stuff like that, um, we just had different, there was nothing that was going to, there was nothing there than just, like, support for each other. Like, if she was going through something or traveling or, um, undergoing any kind of life.

situation like I would be there to call or message and just like you know hyper up from the background or support whenever I'd come back we'd make time to hang out and like just grab a coffee and catch up and share our life experiences and but then with the pandemic and everything both of our lives took a pretty big hit with everything like my my life personally got really turned upside down with like relationship at the point at that time um my my project my work trajectory my career the only thing that was actually going for me was to come back to it was the photography that was also a big that was something i really latched on to for like my own personal well-being um because everything else had just it it's like somebody took

the table that was my life and just flipped it and let all the dishes and the plates fall wherever they may and crash and break so i was like really rocky footing and she was having some challenges and difficulties to brought on by everything and we just kind of like again we kept supporting each other and just really bonding and just with like all of the time for self-reflection and all of this like I sometimes feel like this whole pandemic like ripped the veil off a lot of things and just pulled back the curtain and showed like the rawness of things that maybe we were dealing with or weren't dealing with so well and exposed a lot of a lot of underlying things that we could hide with all of our distractions and just having her support me so well.

Like our friendship just kept getting stronger and stronger. How did she support you if you could? Just just with like kind words and just like telling me like if you need anything like I'm here for you or like yes, the way you're feeling is like valid. You're not like don't think you're crazy. You're not crazy because you're struggling through a pandemic. Like just being a good friend, you know, like how you would text up like your best guy friend and be like, hey, man, like, hope you're doing well.

Like, if you need anything, reach out and text me and just words of encouragement and stuff like that. And then, like, months later, while I was struggling in my first semester of, like, my master's... So how long ago was this now? This would have been... Where I'm getting to right now would be this lap past October, so just about a year ago. Okay. We just, like, we ended up going for a drive, and we just talked about life and, like, really... shared our feelings and we were out with everything and it just really hit me that was like

this person has been my best friend for like seven years now and we have even though apart we've grown up together and we've just been so respectfully supportive of each other nothing dramatic has occurred between us we've never stepped on each other's toes if there was other people in our lives like it's just been so supportive and healthy and I was like if I don't make a like there's a lot of the feelings here that I didn't really know we're there. And if I don't acknowledge those, I'm going to spend the rest of my life trying to find something like this because of that history that we have together and that healthiness

and just like the way that we are together. I'm like, this is literally dating someone who is my best friend. So it was on the car drive that you realized there were feelings there. Yeah, yeah. They just kind of all came out. And then even after that, like we took a bit of time away to kind of think about, I went back to the island to finish up my semester. She stayed in Chilliwack and we were kind of really taking that time to like figure out how we wanted to be and what we wanted to do.

And came back in like late December, close to the, yeah, right around Christmas and then just I like go off the fairy angel straight to her house. And then like that night we were like, you know what, let's give this a shot. Let's let's be more than friends. What was her response to that? Was she just? She was very on board. She was very on board. So it just, it was like, it was like taking that chance and having it all pay off.

And then now fast forward, like, we know exactly where we're both at, where we want to be. We've always had the same life goals and kind of not the same philosophies, but very coinciding philosophies. Like, we have our own differences. We're our own people. But just like, you know what? The world is crazy right now, but I've got my best friend right here. Like, let's, let's do this. Let's get married.

Can you tell us about her and what her values are and where you guys have that overlap? Sure, yeah. She's just like a just a wonderful human being, like adventurous, incredibly intelligent, probably one of the most caring, compassionate people I can think of. And I know everybody's going to say that about their partner, so I'm biased, but I'm also right. But you could also give examples. Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. I mean, just the way that she interacts like with A, she's a huge animal lover. but she'll like defend her friends like fiercely like if they're in bad situations or if they need help like she is the person who's going to be there and the way she treats strangers like she's not afraid to say hello to people no matter how they might be looking or acting some people you know they get really uncomfortable around certain people she'll always take time to smile and wave and ask how people are doing she messaged me the other day saying that she bought a drink and some chips for a homeless woman who was clear

short unchanged trying to buy something and she's just like that just made my day and like there's like that genuine excitement yeah um she's also incredibly adventurous i mean she's been to far more countries than i've been um like traveled pretty much all over the world has like volunteered with sea turtles and stuff like that and done like garbage cleanups and just like these these really like wholesome activities and volunteer events and like when me or her together it's like it doesn't really matter what we have planned we can get in the car and drive and we'll find some kind of adventure, even if it's just a road trip late a night up to some kind of viewpoint to, like, look over the city, or just to, like, crank some

music and, like, sing, like, idiots in the car. Like, it's, she's always up for, like, an adventure, and it's just very intelligent as well. Like, very, very smart woman. Can you share a bit about her career path? Because that's something we talked about before, and I think that her moral compass is very strong from what you've said. Yeah, like where we really coincide with our like career trajectories, whereas if I can make photography my full-time career, she would make writing and specifically travel writing her full-time career. So she, for the last couple of years,

she has been growing her own travel writing business where she talks about and builds this idea of mindful photography. And she's got like a few thousand subscribers now on her website, not just her Instagram or anything, but her actual, like, newsletter and email and, like, actual subscriber list. Can you give it a shout out? Yeah, Daniel Venture. If you guys check it out, I don't think you'll be disappointed. You'll find some great content, especially if you want to travel and get more out of your travel experience in the next couple of years. And I also find out how to do it on the cheap.

She's really good at that. But, yeah, she's been building that for the last couple years. And on the side, she also does DIY work, so Behavior Interventionist. and she works one-on-one with kids who are on the spectrum. So helping them just build study habits, life habits, works with them to essentially get through the school system. And that's something that she is very, very passionate about. And again, just goes to speak to her character. Like, she really, really, really loves working with these kids.

And you can tell that there's like the passion there. That's awesome. And so how did it come about to decide to get married? um like we had talked about it for a little while because we both sat down and we're like okay this clearly isn't dating to see like where our relationship is going to go we're dating because we know where it wants to go and we had a couple conversations about it and like we went back and forth and like is this too soon is it too early should we wait um but there's so many like plans and kind of like things that we have figured out for our own personal lives and our lives

together and we're like you know what we no matter what we do like whether it's a year from now or two years from now, like we know that we end up together. We know that this is what we both want. And with the way that things are going right now, like restrictions keep coming back and forth and the waves and things like as soon as they start to get a little bit better, they dip again. And if there's really no knowing what the next few years are going to bring, we want to at least navigate that together. So we're like, why wait for the perfect opportunity when the opportunity is right now? And then so I proposed and then we're like, okay. How did that come about? How did you propose and how did you get the ring and how did that all come about? Yeah, ring is an old family heirloom. It's from like the late 1800s, early 1900s. It's been in the family for a long time.

And I took her, we used to meet up in Vancouver. Was that like your mother, like your mother's side? Yeah, yeah. I think it was like my great, great, great aunts or something like that. And Daniel loves old things, so it just kind of made sense. but we would always meet up in Vancouver as one of our meetup days if ever I was coming over from the island or something and if we just needed to have a day outside and catch up Vancouver would always be the day so we went out there for the day and did most of our like usual stuff out there like it was kind of like a typical Vancouver day for us and then towards the end of the night kind of in the evening we went to Deep Cove which is up in North Van and again kind of a special place to us and then I popped the question there. I had my good friend who I mentioned earlier, Brandon, he was there taking photos and doing some videography. Like I had him hide and like take the, take the photos

and the video by surprise. And then they did a little photo shoot for us. And we popped some sparkling apple cider and then drove home. That's awesome. Yeah, it was a good day. And she said yes. She did. Thankfully, she said yes. And so how did planning come about? Like for planning that? Like no, planning the uh like getting married oh yeah we just we like drove home and we're like let's just do this so then we said we like kind of figured out a couple dates and we've been planning it ever since and so what what is the plan what is it looking like and who where are you considering doing it yeah um so we're going to be doing it on a friend's property they got like a little they got like a little bit of untouched forest so we're doing it like right in the forest we're just having like

really close friends and family like we're doing it like under 50 people uh not having a a reception, we're just doing the ceremony, and then some food and snacks there with our close our close people. Right in the forest, we've got, we've got pretty much everything all figured out and ready to go, but it's just going to be small and intimate and short and sweet. And same thing, like I've, we've always talked about, well, when we were talking about it, but I've never wanted to do a very traditional, the idea of going $40,000 into debt for a wedding kills me. Yeah. I already did that for school. I'm not doing that for a wedding, too.

Yeah. And she feels the exact same way. Like, she's never wanted anything super traditional. So we're doing it for a couple hundred bucks getting it done. That's awesome. And it sounds like you guys are very excited about it. What are your guys's longer term plans and kind of goals to move forward? Because it sounds like one of your interests is photography,

and you've talked a little bit about how you want to make that more of what you do every day. Yeah. And so where would you take that if you could? Yeah. Yeah, like, we're both of the mindset right now of like, you know, homeownership is out of the question. We're not getting married to settle down and have kids and have a house right away. Like, we both have our goals that we want to reach and support each other in. And we've talked about putting, like combining her writing with my photography and making something of that, but also having our own paths.

So I've been trying to build my photography business and client base and I'm doing that with one of my friends as well and supporting her. Daniel Venture I'm doing some of like the graphic design and background work again lets me be creative and explore that but the big goals are like we want to work remotely and travel when things are when it's appropriate to do so again so like right now we're like saving our pennies and again exercising the photography and writing wherever we can and when the world fingers crossed opens up again like we want to take off and we want to both travel again because we haven't gotten to do that together yet. We've done it so individually, but the next school would be like a nice long trip. Right. And so what would you want to get out of that? What would you be

taking photos of if the world opens up and if you were able to go where you wanted to go? Where would those places be? And what would you be taking photos of? Would it be of people, views? What would what would your preference be? Yeah. If we could go, I want to do like a hop, hop and skip kind of trip. like I want to go to different places. So South Pacific, I want to go back to Southeast Asia, Central Asia. I would love to explore Mongolia. Maybe Europe, I've been there before, but places in Africa, I would love to go down to a few countries down there and make her way over to Central and South America. But what I would love to do is, I mean, the dream would be to have some like sponsorships or something at that point or like an audience base. And I really, like at this point,

I just really, really, really want to share stories of everyday people from different countries and just like it would be a personal dream of mine just to share that as the everyday working class person, like we're not so different from each other. We've all got jobs to do. We've all got people we love. We've all got things we believe in. Just because what you might hear on the mainstream media might cause some fear and division and panic, it doesn't mean that these other everyday people aren't still good.

honest folk. And I think it just, I think stories like that and showing the goodness of other parts in the world just go really good. It's a really good way to dispel some of that fear that is so easily, like it's so easily captivating for people. Absolutely. And can you tell us a little bit more about Daniel Ventures and what that looks like? What would people expect to see if they were to hop on? And what would they be learning about? Yeah. So they'd be learning about lots of different travel, like tactics and trips and or tips and philosophies i guess so kind of along the same line like hey you know if you if you want to travel like let's say wherever it is you want to go here's how you can find an affordable ticket here's how you here's when you should travel here's your shoulder

season um here's some things here's tips to be not tips but here's information to be aware of depending on the country you go so how to find out local holidays how to find small businesses how to support local entrepreneurs, what to do if you want across stray dogs, stray pets, how to invest in like sustainable and eco-friendly products. I've been doing a little bit of writing on how to be like a mindful photographer, like how to ask for consent, how to frame your photos, how to think about your photos while you travel. Tell us more about that. Yeah, it's like it's very unofficial, very crashed course, but just from some of the things I've learned, like, I sometimes see people who just throw their camera into people's faces and don't even say a word to them, just take a picture and leave.

And I just find that very disrespectful. So I put on a couple of things like how to, if you want like a good, honest photo of somebody who you find intriguing, like how to ask for consent, the importance of asking for their permission to take your photo or their photo, how to build that like quick relationship. If you're out in a new place, like how to be aware of any, like, festival, festivities or holidays that might be spiritual or religious or holy, where taking photos might actually be seen, like, might actually be frowned upon. Do you have any examples that you could pull on on how you would approach this and what that would look like? Yeah. So, like, the fruit lady I mentioned earlier was kind of my big catalyst for that one, and that is just being reciprocal. Like, she gave me a little bit of her time to let me take her photos. so I want to thank her and pay her for her time

because she could have been selling to somebody else so I purchased fruit from her and we get to walk away she got my money for her good and I got my photos for her time and having that conversation and like before I just stick my camera in her face like asking can't you can I take your photo

I really like your smile there's consent then there's like the relationship building by laughing and chatting and I'm sitting there like oh your smile is beautiful like thank you and then the handshake at the end, which is me purchasing her goods. And then I think we both get to walk away

with our time well used. And I got a very honest, awesome picture from it, and she got some business. So I could have just walked up, looked at her, taken a picture, and then just walked away.

And then she would have been left there sitting like, what the hell was that? I didn't say yes to that. I don't like that you took my picture. So just being wary of stuff like that. And also, I might be slightly wrong on this, but during the end of my time in Hanoi, there's like, it's like a spiritual

kind of holiday or like time of the year where it's, I'm going to be super wrong on this. I'm just trying to remember off top of my head, but it has something to do with the spirits of family members and stuff coming back up onto the streets. And you pay your offerings to them, like either you burn some money or you. you leave food and goods out for them to be able to consume during the night. And during that time, you're not actually supposed to take people's photos because you don't want to capture the spirits in the frame. And it might not be something that I necessarily believe in,

but I'm not, like, do not be that person who ignores what's going on in the streets and at that time of year and go willingly take people's photos, because that can mean a lot to them. And you might put them in a very bad spot by disrespecting or not paying attention to that. because it might not mean a lot to you, but that can mean a lot to that person. Right. So just being aware, and, like, certain holidays and festivals or, like, protests and stuff, like, some things might be appropriate to take pictures of, but other things, like,

it's frowned upon because it might be a period of mourning or something. And it's just not, like, don't be that person. Yeah. You might not know, somebody might not say something to you, but they're going to look at you and be, like, why is that white guy taking photos? Don't be that person. so that's what the website is all about like it lays out some different cultural differences between different countries yeah like we're going to get like she's going to get more into like she has like education um workshops as well so she's done a whole web series on how to actually plan a trip on a budget and you can access that like you can pay for it and then you get like a whole series of like webisodes i guess you could call them and they take you through all the different aspects like how to find um a plane how to find tickets

how to get your hostile booking, how to eat on the cheap, how to get adventures, like affordable adventures, et cetera, et cetera. And she wants to expand that to doing that for certain parts of the world. So sort of like Lonely Planet, where you can get like Lonely Planet on a shoe, like Asia on a shoestring budget kind of books. Do that with like...

I have no idea what you're saying. Okay. There's like a travel company called Lonely Planet. And they do a ton of different books, like travel books. And I've used them lots. One of the books they have is like how to travel. travel a certain part of the world on a budget, so like Asia on a budget. And the book will just have a bunch of different hostels at different price points or restaurants or activities to

do. And she wants to do that, but with more of that mindfulness approach and showcase local businesses or volunteer groups that she's personally worked with as like reputable, trustworthy sources. And she's also got like a travel planning guide. So you can buy the, it's a whole ebook that you can buy and it's basically a series of checklists that you work through like you know have you purchased your plane ticket um what sites did you use uh what is your budget have you accounted for um different expenses like toiletries medication um emergency food like stuff like that so it's very in depth and it's yeah okay if i could like summarize the contents that you can get out of it it's like a full toolkit on how to travel affordably and mindfully or ethically some people

might call it. Yeah. But that sounds absolutely amazing and something that I think is lacking because right now I don't know about you, but I feel like travel for most people is Mexico, Cuba, the normal places, I sit on a beach and I just tan. Yeah. And it seems like right now the only people who go out and have those experiences are young people who go out with very little money but then I don't know I feel like I don't hear the stories

the benefits the the knowledge gained and I'm interested to hear your thoughts on what is it like to tell people about your travels because to me it feels like through the podcast most people rush through it yeah I've been Italy Greece Spain Portugal like China and like it's like slowed out what did you what did you learn what did you get out of that what was the difference between all of those countries in Canada and what did what do you learn from that and what what did you grow through that experience it seems like that is like the furthest from average people's mind so I'm just interested to hear your thoughts on what is it like to share these experiences with with the average person not your loved ones and family who might be really passionate but what is

it like to try and tell that story in our normal society right now yeah um I think it's actually quite difficult. So I had a, and I dealt with this coming back from Vietnam because, and I think it's hard because it can be a very difficult thing for people to relate to if they haven't traveled or been to a similar part. Because travel does require, like, it's a hobby. It can be a lifestyle. Like you have to care for it, I think, to fully understand it. And people don't, which is fine. I don't care about things like quads and dirt bikes and stuff like that. I can't talk to somebody who isn't passionate about it. Interesting. I've never, I've never heard it put that way like it's like it's like something you like learning the guitar or learning

photography where you have to put the time into it in order to get it and understand okay yeah totally and also like because travel consumes a lot of time and finances it is quite a privilege to get to go do so of course if you work hard enough and you make it your goal like the like you can do it if you're if you don't have too many dependence on you if you make the time and the money available to go and do it you can do it which is one of the goals of this of her website um but because of that kind of that underlying like tone of privilege that comes with travel um it can be hard to i find it really hard to talk to people about it without coming off as like um a super privileged person or like very unrelatable like i i struggle sharing experiences because even

sometimes when i hear people's experiences i'm like oh lucky you like i don't really care because that's so out of my zone um so i think you'd be hard to like relate to with travel and it can come across as like privilege and i find that some people and not because they mean to but it can be really hard just to connect to i definitely feel like for certain people the average person they lack that like rebecca and i our first trip together was to hawaii oh yeah and we we were the the standard Canadians we were very excited to travel travel and our mindset was like, okay, like, let's go to Hawaii or Mexico or whatever the hot destination is.

Yeah, yeah. We went there and we had, I don't want to say a bad time, but it was a mediocre time in the sense that we were checking other people's boxes. We were going to the zoo. We were going up this mountain. Why were we going up the mountain? Well, it said on TripAdvisor that it was a top place to go. Yeah.

And so here we are on the top of this mountain and we're like, well, okay, now what? I guess we'll head back down the mountain. We'll eat a pineapple. That was good. But we didn't know what to do and we didn't know what was us. What was an experience we would sincerely enjoy and get out of and learn from. And it seems like that's how most people travel is they're checking other people's. They're checking trip advisors top 10 places to go rather than I want to learn about this place.

Like the next place that we really want to go is the Keck Observatory in Hawaii. Because we're actually interested We're always out looking at the stars She loves the moon, she loves the stars I'm in a perfect spot to go do it then Exactly But there's a reason we would go there We wouldn't just go there

Just to stand in a spot That other people have said is a cool place We're going there because that's something That would actually genuinely interest us And I think that that's something We didn't realize until I don't know two, three trips We're still kind of learning it

Like we're still figuring out What we enjoy doing And what we're going to get out of the trip ourselves To get the benefit fit out of. And so I'm interested to know how you guys view travel and what you're looking to get out of it. Like where, what are you seeing? What are the hidden gems that you see that the average person going to Mexico isn't is missing in their travels? Yeah, like stuff like like making travel like that. I think it's a very conscious effort you have to make to make it your own thing.

But when I think of what travel means to both of us and especially myself is just our time here so limited. Like, it really does go by quick, whether it feels like it or not. And I have the ability to where I can make travel happen. And I am going to make travel happen because time is limited. There's just like, the natural world just floors me and awes me in ways I just can't describe. Growing up in BC has been a beautiful entry point to that. But just, just the want to go and see other places to put my eyes on things that I've read about that I've seen in movies that I've seen in documentaries and also just to understand that like different parts of the world will live differently and that's okay and to see just to

see other parts of it like the world is such a cool place like we're the only planet we know of that can contain the life that we have that has the the level of history and civilization and still of raw beautiful nature all in one like rock floating in space like that's a pretty cool thing and it just makes me want to go and see it and just document it and it's like see it for my own two eyes but also because because I know that travel is such a privilege and it can be a really hard thing to make time for the reason why I want to photograph it so much and share it and the same reason why Danielle wants to do it with her writing is because we know that so many people can't go in. We know that the majority of

people cannot have this opportunity and make this happen. But it doesn't mean that those people aren't excited about seeing things like this and aren't, don't also go and watch BBC Earth or go and watch Planet Earth or listen to David Attenborough and fall in love with the world. And I know that That's real because when I was a kid, those people who shared those far off places were like my heroes growing up because I couldn't go see them, but I got to see them through them. So getting to go out and not only see it for myself, but also bring that back to people that I care about and people I know who in a different lifetime or under different circumstances would have made that could have made the opportunity to go and see this, I want to at least bring that back and share it through hopefully some rather unbiased eyes and just share. you know, the world isn't, like, the world is still pretty cool despite what we might see. It's still a pretty cool place and hopefully inspire people even just through a couple images that, like, oh yeah, this world's a big, cool place, and I'm glad I got to see that.

Absolutely. Can you just say, how did university play a role in that? You took geography. How did that interact with your passion for the world and the globe? Yeah, it really confirmed it. Before I did geography, I thought about, I tried to get into nursing for a couple years, but I got rejected from like everything I applied to. I think I got one wait list.

So it wasn't in my cards, and it wasn't for lack of trying because I sure as hell tried. But geography was always nagging at me. And again, it was an opportunity for me to kind of learn about the world from a classroom instead of dishing out the extra money to always be traveling and also get an education from it. But it confirmed my love for it. And it also showed me ways and the importance of not just understanding the world, but taking some action within the world in the ways that you could.

Something like geography is a very misunderstood program where people think it's a lot of just looking at maps and coloring in borders and naming cities. and there was a lot of maps. Don't get me wrong. I held a compass in my hand for like half my degree and stared on a map for even longer. We made maps with GIS. But it really is like this,

like geography is like writing of the earth and writing about the earth. And there's so many, like physical science that's involved with it. So forest management, environmental stewardship and stuff like that. Then there's the human aspect of like politics or I guess,

I just say more government work. and community planning, like, what I did. And it's a very in-depth program, but it showed me it concreted my just, my want for traveling and seeing the world that will just never die at this point. It's just a part of me now. And the importance of wanting to do just something that contributes to it in a better way. Alex, you live with an intent, and that's been consistent throughout your education, your work, you have this ability to look at things from this perspective consistently that makes sure

that it's not in anybody's worst interest. And I think that that's so important. You set such a positive example in how you want to travel, in your humility, in your ability to understand your place in all of this. And I think that that's such a strong example, considering you're so young and your willingness to be who you are with that intent with that persistence of like I'm going to do this because it is it fits who I am and you're constantly seeming to work towards that in the best way you know how and I've gotten a lot out of this because I think that your work with photography with trying to help others be able to find some glimmer of happiness in such a strange time set such an example for other people and I just really want to appreciate

you for being able to take the time, share what work you're doing in photography, what work you're doing in with geography, your travels, and your commitment, your relationships. I think that you set such a strong example for other people to live their lives with intent. Thank you. Yeah, that means a whole lot to me. So thank you for saying that. And I could say the same to you about just wanting, I've watched you pretty much create this, at least in the background, I've watched you create this pretty much from scratch and seeing like the amount of different guests you've had on like you've shown me people in my community right here

where I grew up that I didn't even know existed and that's I think exactly kind of what your goal is is I can look at people like I might forget some of the names but you had an elder on here you had the owner of town butcher and I listened to his story about his thought that he was going to go into the military and that's where he was going to belong and possibly even die like I resonate with a story like that and hearing all these different people like seemingly everyday people doing extraordinary things. It's a very, very, it's just good. It's just good

for the soul. Well, you're amongst them now because you set such a strong example and I really appreciate your willingness to listen and tune in prior and learn about these people because that is the goal is that guests would have some sort of an understanding of who came before them. And you said that even beforehand. So I just really appreciate. being able to get to know you over the years and see who you're flourishing into and I wish nothing but the best. Can you please tell people how to find you and how to find Danielle on social media and on any websites? Sure, yeah. I'll start with Danielle. So you can find her Danielventure.com. It's literally just Daniel. And then... With double L?

A double L. And then Venture, V-E-N-T-U-R-E. That's Danielventure.com or DanielVenture on Instagram or Pinterest. You can also find me right now on Instagram, just Heart Alex, H-A-R-T-E-E-A-Lex, and Alex Hart Photo. And I have a website, AlexHartPotography.com. It's just under construction right now, so I got to let the old fire under my own button get that started. But yeah, Instagram and Danielaventure.com is where you're going to find both of us. Thank you.