Nuanced. - 4. Shanal Prasad - How To Start a Business

Episode Date: September 16, 2021

Shanal Prasad is the principal lawyer at Alpine Legal Services. His educational background includes experience as a Chartered Professional Accountant, and a law degree from Thompson Rivers University. He practices Real Estate Law, Business Law, and Wills & Estates Law. As well, he serves on the board of directors for South Fraser Community Futures.Alpine Legal Services: www.alpinelawyers.comStarting a business? Here are great local resources:Stó:lō Community Futures offers support services for Indigenous owned/controlled businesses within S'ólh Téméxw, the Stó:lō Traditional Territory from Fort Langley to Yale, on both sides of the Fraser River.  Our offers include business counseling, access to loan capital programs, business training workshops, and growth guidance. Visit their website to get started: https://www.stolocf.ca/Community Futures South Fraser serves small business owners and entrepreneurs in Chilliwack and Abbotsford.  They provide basic business advisory services including free one-on-one coaching conversations for small to medium-sized business owners. If you’re wanting to grow your business in a specific way, we have a specialist that can help. Visit their website to get started: https://southfraser.com/Community Futures North Fraser serves small business owners and entrepreneurs in Harrison Hot Springs, Agassiz and Mission. They provide basic business advisory services including free one-on-one coaching conversations for small to medium-sized business owners. If you’re wanting to grow your business in a specific way, we have a specialist that can help. Visit their website to get started: https://northfraser.org/Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/user?u=35374462&fan_landing=true)Send us a textSupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Chanel Prasad, you are our final guest of this mini-series, and I think that that will be really valuable for people because I think that you have a very broad understanding of so many different mechanisms when starting a business that I think you will help summarize a lot of the information we've heard and kind of bring it all together for people. So I'm hoping you can do a brief introduction of yourself. All right. Thanks, Aaron.

My name is Chanel. And I'm the founder and owner of Alpine Legal Services here in Chiluac. We're a small law firm focusing on real estate, business, and wills and estate's law. Before going into law, I was an accountant, I have a CPA. And prior to that, I was a student for quite a while. And I also had other businesses that I was involved in. But, yeah. Well, that's fantastic. Let's get started with how entrepreneurship kind of entered your life.

Could you tell us about if your parents had any involvement in that and how that moved you in the direction of being willing to take these sort of risks? Start your own business and do it yourself. Yeah. So definitely started through my parents. So, you know, my dad came from Fiji in the 70s. And most immigrants at that time, they come to a new country. They work labor jobs mostly, because back where they came from, it's really difficult to afford any higher degree of education. So a lot of the public schools only go up to like grade four, right? So if you want any, if you want to pursue higher education and that, you have to be able to afford it, right?

And then university, it's way more advanced. So a lot of people did not go to university, right? It wasn't a thing back then. So you come to a new country, you try to learn the language, working labor jobs. and you know these jobs are minimum wage they're tough on your body working long hours you're trying to learn a skilled trade so that's what my parents had to do right just like other immigrant families that come here you have to start from somewhere and my dad learned woodworking right so he really loves his trade

really loved woodworking everything to do with it and he really got good at it and then started getting promoted the place he worked at and he worked for two shops at the same time so he'd work from 7 to 3 and then 3 30 to 11 30 midnight and then we just do that right five days a week and then the weekends he started to build furniture so you know places throw all the kind of scrap wood and then he would refurbish things and make really you know nice furniture out of it and sell it right because you need to have additional sources of income if you want to be able to afford a house one day so that's

what he started to do and then eventually it turned into doing more full-scale cabinet projects and then from there taking the money getting a shop, getting more equipment, and he learned how to also fix his own equipment. So he would get molder machines, fix them up, refurbish them, and use them. These are ways you save money in the beginning, right, as opposed to going out, they're taking a loan, buying all the new fancy stuff. He would find ways to, you know, DIY, right? And he really has a knack for it.

So I would sit there and watch, and, you know, he's got a lot of friends in the trades as well. And I used to work with him, right? So you meet a lot of people in the trades. And there's always a variety of people in any industry, right? And you see the folks that, you know, they show up in the morning and then they're done the workday, they clock out. And that's it. They go home.

You know, they do other things, but they're not interested in doing anything more than that, right? And they don't have the folks who are a bit more entrepreneurial, right? They might work another job. They might have a business on the weekends. They're trying to build something, right? And then you see them succeed. You know, I've seen people who,

they learn a trade, they save some money, they have a business, and they start pulling money together with their other friends and family. They buy property to invest in in other cities, and then everything booms, right? Like a lot of immigrant families who bought properties in Abbotsford way back in the day, right? Back then, Abbotsford Chilliwack, I would even go there, right? It was so back in the day, it was just, it was farming, right? And if you lived out there, what would you work? What would you do? And then now, they reap the rewards. right because now you know look at these places right so they made tons of money in real estate and you know but it all came from the will to do right and so i would see things and i would see how my

dad would um make decisions in terms of getting equipment right um with jobs you would take on how he would price them how he would design things and like how you interact with clients right and then he built himself a nice business and then um there's all kinds of custom projects because of custom projects it takes a lot more skill and you're someone who takes pride in what you do then you love working on those projects where you know that nobody else can really do this. It's really tough and you have a lot of skill and you can pull it off and then the impacts, right? So you have customers that they want to hold kitchen. They might have a nice, big, luxurious house.

They want the whole kitchen redone with clients with massive bars, like 20 foot counters. Like it takes up like it's almost like a movie theater, right? It's all custom projects. And then he loves that. And then the client hosts like a dinner party, Christmas party. guest come and say, oh, wow, who did all your work, right? So he loves doing the custom stuff. And so nowadays, you know, that's what he would do is take on those kinds of projects.

But it was cool to see how that evolved over the years, right? And if wasn't for that, we definitely wouldn't have been able to, you know, do things like buy a house and have the middle class lifestyle, right? I think that that is really valuable for people to hear because I think that right now with entrepreneurs, we hear a lot of self-care, take care of yourself, do something for yourself. And I think that I'd like to learn a little bit more about what it was like to watch your dad who didn't really have an alternative. The alternative was less food on the table or less comfort in the home. He was really trying to provide. It doesn't sound like he was living a lavish

lifestyle when he was putting in all those hours. So I'm interested to know how that impacted you watching someone make such sacrifices and not have the self-care kind of ability. well it was definitely uh very hard to uh to witness right um because you're watching someone who's working all the time right and then if they have any injuries because this is all these these are all physical jobs right um and so it's not easy on the body you need time to rest and recover but he didn't really have that and so there was one time um probably the worst moment was when he fell asleep on a saw like he was exhausted and you know he was working the late shift and then just fell asleep and he lost his finger right um but you know wcb will pay you right compensation but it's

never really enough like it wasn't really anything i think he actually ended up losing if he considered the time it would take off to recover um but he didn't have much time then to recover he had to go back to work right um and so just wrapped up his finger and had to go back to work right um so and he had no choice like what else you're going to do right um so it was really hard to kind of see so I want to go through that. And as a kid, you don't understand it too much because you're not an adult. You don't understand what it takes to do that. And I was an adult to look at that.

I'm like, wow, you know, you have to really pull through, right? And I think for him, it came down too. You know, you have kids. You have a family. They rely on you. And their future depends on you, right? And, you know, our futures will be a lot easier if as a parent, you're willing to do more, right? So that was his mentality.

And so that's what he did what he could and sacrificed all those years to do that, right? which, you know, that's admirable because it's extremely difficult to do, right? And then I see some of my peers from that time who, you know, their parents in the same boat, but, you know, to them they valued other things, right? So they would finish work at five and then go home and drink me with your friends and watch hockey games and their kids would play with us in the backyard. And they're still doing that, right? Whereas for my dad, you know, he was never, like at a certain point,

he just stopped hanging out with some of his friends and just, started working more and making more money and really wanted to, you know, do something more in terms of being to provide, right? And so that was motivation. And it's one of those things where if you want to be an entrepreneur and you're going to be successful, you need to have that motivation. You need to have something, right? Because if you don't have something that drives you in that way, it's very hard because it's long hours. Like if you're if you're not doing the work, you're trying to find work, you're trying to build your business, do your marketing. Like, there's always something to do so you're working around the clock um so it's a lot of work it's a lot

of long hours and at the end of the day it's on you if you are if it's your business no one else will care about as much as you would right um so if you want to slack well that's going to impact your business right if you don't want to do the work anymore it impacts your business so the buck shops with you that's it right so if you're not willing to put the work in um then your business can't really succeed but through that you need to have motivation right that's that's a really hard part, right? It's not to say that entrepreneurs are always 100% motivated. You're going to have times where you don't feel that anymore, right? You're in times you're burnt out, you're have times where you're really struggling, right? And I know a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with

things like mental health, maybe they feel isolated, they feel alone. But you have to find a way forward, right? And so my dad had to do that by himself because he didn't really have any people in his network who, you know, were really supporting him in that sense. They weren't entrepreneurs. They didn't know what it was like. So you have to kind of find a way to do it yourself and stay motivated and really just push through your right. And so I saw him go through that, right? And, you know, I learned a lot from watching him in terms of how you build a business and keep it going. And, you know, it was definitely played a huge role in how I would do things in my own life.

Wow, that is a really impactful story. And I'm wondering how you can tie in education with this because I think a lot of entrepreneurs, they kind of roll their eyes. at education and going to school, but you have a bachelor's degree, you've got a mortgage broker's license, you've got your CPA, you've got a law degree, you've really gone to school and educated yourself and put yourself in a really good position to understand all the aspects of running a business. So can we start with your bachelor's degree? What pulled you into university and what were the courses you took? And would you recommend any of those courses to an entrepreneur, not the whole program perhaps, but a few courses that you really found value?

So, yeah. Accounting. So when I was in high school, I went to go into programming. That was my, that's what I thought my path was going to be. I loved to program. I taught myself a couple programming languages, made some money programming on the side. And a lot of programmers, they'll tell you that they're self-taught, right? At a certain point, you learn, and they go to university to polish your skills. Then we had a family friend, and he was a programmer. He was a video game designer at a well-known company and he told me what the day-to-day was like as a programmer and i was like you know what i maybe i don't want to do that doesn't it's not like something i'd be interested in um and the other part is you know um the industry changes all the time right back then if you knew a couple programming languages you're really glad at you can find yourself really good uh really good job but nowadays need to know many languages and you have to constantly educating yourself up getting yourself um start your entire career right um and i was like you know what If I'm, you know, someone who has a family and I have to constantly learn and step to date just to be able to keep my current job and stay relevant in this industry, it's really fast-paced.

And I don't even like the work environment as much. It doesn't really appeal to me from what I've seen. Then why am I going to go into it if I know it's how it's going to end up, right? So I talked to my career counselor in high school and they said, well, you're good at math. Why don't you try accounting? You know, well, accounting has nothing to do with math, right? As I would later learn. But I figured I looked into it and I was like, how interesting.

you know, accounting, you kind of, you know, the person understands how the money flows when it comes to business, right? I was like, that sounds pretty neat. I'll start with accounting and we'll see where that ends up, right? So I went into accounting and most people enter accounting thinking it's a practical skill, right? If you learn how to do accounting, you can get a job somewhere, it's more flexible in terms of the kinds of work you can get. You can work for big companies, smaller companies, can do bookkeeping, having a little bookkeeping. But it presents opportunities. And I think that, you know, with my parents' generation, you know, accounting was definitely a high-paying, stable job. I mean, it still is, but back then especially, right?

You know, because not many people had accounting designations back in the day compared to now. But, you know, a lot of who wanted accounting because they wanted to have a well-paying stable career. And that's the mentality when they went to school to learn accounting was I'm just going to pick up the skills to get a stable job, right? But for me, I want to actually learn about it, right? I want to learn and, you know, kind of look beyond just the day-to-day, how do I do this, and really learn what it was about. And so I was very interested in economics, you know, like the theory behind accounting. Because I always believed, like, you know, if you want to learn about the business or even about society,

you just follow where the money goes, right? And stuff, that I found really cool, right? And so, and then you learn the practical stuff about accounting, right? Like how the numbers work. How you account for certain things, you know, income statements, balance sheets, because a lot of entrepreneurs will tell you that the part, sometimes, you know, the part they don't like is the financial statements, reading them, understanding them, the bank's asking for it. The CRA is asking for stuff. It's, you know, it's an important part of running a business is understanding the numbers, right? So for me, I figured accounting would open up a lot of doors because it would be really good background to have. Because when you run a business, you have to know your numbers. You have to know the cost of producing certain things, how much money you're making. cash flow, can you pay your bills, you have money to grow, right? Should I buy this? Should I lease

this? What are the next steps? It's really helpful to have that knowledge, right? So for me, it was, you know, I got to acquire those skills. And it's definitely been very helpful, right? Because the ultimate goal was always to become a lawyer and or have my own business, right? That was kind of always the long-term goal, and I figured accounting would be a really great background to have, right, to be able to do that. But that being said, you don't need to have a degree, you know, to have your own business. If you're willing to work hard and pick up the skills, I mean, a lot of entrepreneurs don't even have a degree, right? But, you know, having one is not necessarily, you know, going to nakedly impact you, but it provides you with a different insight, definitely make things easier in some way, and it's a good fallback

option, right? So let's say, you know, I know some people that they run their own business for a while, and sometimes they hit a point where they just don't feel it anymore. They want to go back in industry, right? And now they've got the experience running a business, they're entrepreneurial, maybe they want something more stable where they can spend more time with their family, because things change, right? And now they have an option where they can go and take on a job somewhere, right? So it doesn't really hurt you in any way, but it was definitely very helpful

because you needed a degree to get to law school. And I knew I was wanted to get involved in business. So that's the path that I took. Could you tell us a little bit more about accounting and what you see when you see a business or what information or what terms somebody should look up if they're running a business and they know nothing about accounting? What are some basics that they should be looking for

to have an understanding of like cash flow projections. What do these terms mean? Yeah. And that's really important. That's a really good question, right? Because not everybody, if they're going to start a business now, they don't have to spend a year or two in university trying to learn this stuff, right? And there's lots of resources online, especially for entrepreneurs,

just giving you a crash course in accounting, right, that are very helpful programs. So you want to understand, for example, what goes into an income statement, right? So your revenues and expenses, the basics of how that works, right? Because most people think of that, when they think of income. income statements, revenues, expenses, profitability. Think of an accounting we call cash basis accounting, right? So, you know, if I spend money today, it's going to be an expense and it's going to come out of my expenses of the year to be shown in the income statement. There's also accrual-based accounting, right?

Where there's certain revenues and expenses where you might have received the cash, but instead of recognize it all in one year, it actually makes more sense to smooth it out over a certain amount of years. So for example, if you pay me for a contract to do work for you over two years, years and you pay me up front, well, it makes more sense to spread that revenue over the two years as opposed to recognize it all at once, right? So accrual-based accounting is a bit different, and people have difficulty up in their head around that, right? Or, for example, if you pay for insurance, let's say you pay for insurance, it's June, end of June, and you're paying for one years worth of insurance. Well, it doesn't make sense necessarily under the accrual basis to recognize all of that expense in the first year because you're really paying for half of it, you're using

half of that insurance in the first year, the other half in the second year. So a cruel basis, you kind of match it to time period, right? So that's the kind of stuff where it helps to, you know, look into it, understand the terminology, understand a balance sheet, which lists your assets and liabilities. So you know, so then you can calculate your ratios. Because when you go to get loans from the bank, they're going to ask for ratios like debt service, right? The current ratio, they want to see that your business is liquid. They have enough money to cover your debts and to cover debt payments, that you're not too reliant on debt either, they'll have certain ratios, right? So if you have a business you want to get financing,

you want to expand, it really helps to understand what goes into a financial statement and what different ratios mean, how you calculate them. So when your banker asks you about certain things, you can actually talk to account and come up with an answer and understand what's involved and run your business accordingly, right? Maybe the bank will say, well, you have too much debt you can't really cover your debt service we're gonna want to see these following changes right then it's not real foreign to you you'll understand what to do because you need that money to expand and grow your business right so that's a stuff that's very important because there's a lot of people out there

I see who don't even know how to read a financial statement that's crucial to their business right but at the same time understand you're too busy running the business to also learn this stuff you rely on professionals to advise you I think as the owner helps if you want to be a bit more involved in that front to really know the nuts and bowls your business because I can identify rooms for improvement, right? If you know your financials, why am I spending so much money on this?

You know, how much money does my competition spend on these expenses compared to the industry, right? They know where you stand. If you have a good banker, business advisor who also knows your industry, they can give you some tips, you know? Have you tried doing this to improve your operations to become more efficient?

Well, now you can have the conversation. Now you can find ways to improve your business, right? So that's why I think it's important to know that, right? To figure that out. Camden had talked to us about sole proprietorships, business and corporations. Can you tell us some of the accounting benefits of incorporating your business? What are some of the benefits from your perspective, being a business lawyer and being able to help businesses, what are some of the benefits to you of incorporating through taxes and otherwise?

Yeah, so if you're a sole proprietor or partner, because if you have a general partner, Um, basically it's like, you know, a sole proprietorship except two more people, right? So if you and your neighbor decide to, you know, mow someone's lawn for five bucks, congratulations, you have a general partnership now. It's not registered, but that's what the business structure effectively is, um, which is like a sole proprietorship, right? So with the proprietorship, what you're doing is, um, you're doing business, you know, as an individual, um, you can do business under a certain name, but, um, like I could have, I could

mow someone's lawn and be Chanel's lawn care, right? So proprietorship, not registered, I can still start it up, right? And then all your revenue, less your expenses, your net income is your personal income. So you can use it to buy things in your own name. You pay taxes based on your tax brackets. You pay CBP. So you pay your employee and employer portion as opposed to when you work for someone else. The employer pays the employer portion, and you pay your own off of your um you know your paycheck but when you're so proud you're paying for both um and then e i if you want to opt into e i you can still do so um that's up to your accountant to advise you if to whether it's worth it or not based on your future plans um and yeah and then you can um you know

get your rsp contribution room right um so things like that um that's the benefits but let's say um you hit the point where you're making money more than enough to cover your own bill. So you pay yourself the lowest possible salary you can to cover your own expenses and you want to keep the rest in your company, right? Well, in that sense, maybe it's better to incorporate, right? So incorporate, let's say that your business makes $100,000 that year and you pay yourself 50. And you want to keep $50,000 into the business and let it grow. Well, it grows. So the corporate tax rate's a bit lower, right? And then the money can sit there. Tax deferred is what they call it, because you haven't paid it to yourself as income.

income yet, but when you do withdraw it in the future, whether it's through a dividend or salary, you will be paying taxes on it, right? So that way, the money can grow inside your company. You can invest in your company, can invest in other things, and then you only pay taxes once you officially drawn upon it, right? So for some people, maybe that makes more sense. Why would I pay a full tax of drawing the money now? If I don't need it, even the company, the company can use it, and we can use it to grow, right? So, you know, maybe that's one of the tax planning reasons as to why someone would want a corporation, right? In those other, in the past, you could do things like income splitting between spouses and family members,

and there's all kinds of stuff that you could do to less than the tax impact legally. Again, that's more of an accountant discussion, but, you know, with different governments and different laws, things change, right? Because there's always the argument in terms of, well, is this, if we allow people to split their taxable income between family members, is that fair taxation? that's more of a political question, right, as to what's really fair. But, you know, it's, and that changes, right? So maybe today you're not allowed to do certain things. In the future, things will change. You're allowed to split income and stuff like that.

You know, an accountable advise you in terms of what you can do to minimize your tax liability. And then you can use that money to invest in your business, pay your staff more, whatever, right? But the rationale is, you know, they want to have a tax system. that allows for businesses to flourish. But at the same time, you know, you don't want to have the public opinion that you're also favoring people who own businesses, right, and give them preferential tax treatment because that's also not healthy for society, right? So it's about finding that balance. That's a political thing, right?

But the accountant will tell you what you can and cannot do. Right. And I think that that dovetails nicely into a question I have. I think the instinct for so many small business owners and entrepreneurs is to try and save money, save money wherever they can. But I think one area I'd like to ask about is the difference between a bookkeeper and an accountant, because as I said, the instinct is to save money, but perhaps the investment in having an accountant might pay off long term. So I'm wondering if you could elaborate on that. Yeah. So most people will hire a bookkeeper to maintain their books.

That's usually the first function to get outsourishing the business. When you have a business, you're busy, you're getting out there, you're making money. and at the end of the week you see a bunch of receipts and you have a bunch of money in the bank and trying to account, like, it's the first function of people outsource, right? Like, you know what, I don't want to do with this, I'm focusing on focus on business, which is a smart thing to do,

right? You want to focus on your business, do what you're best at, and so they want to find someone to take over the books, right? And so they want to reach out to a bookkeeper, right? In a bookkeeper, I mean, just like any profession, you have people who are very good at it, they really stand out, you have people who, you know, maybe aren't

so good at it, they can get the job done, whatever, but they'll maintain your books, right? Keeper being compliance. But the thing is that, you know, your bookkeeper may not be a designated professional accountant, right? Because professional accountants can do things that provide opinions on financial statements, right? They can do audits. They can advise you with things like internal controls, right? So internal controls prevent fraud in your company. Like, for example, checks, right? Let's say I have a business where I issue a lot of checks. and I just keep the checks in a shelf in my office.

Anybody can access it. I can have my staff sign off on it. Well, what's stopping them from deciding checks, making them payable to themselves and cashing in at the bank, right? There's no control over it. There's no, even IT functions, right? What are the functions there?

What are the fail saves to protect yourselves, right? So these are things that a CPA, especially when as an auditor, can advise you one. They can do a control test, and they can advise you in terms of how to keep these functions, secure, have appropriate control, so they can take things to that step and give you that advice, right? And they can prepare your personal taxes, do your company's taxes. They can, you know, help you with tax compliance. If the CRA is auditing you or have some

questions on your financials, they can answer them, right? So, you know, for me, myself, I have a CPA, right, who helps me that kind of thing. Even though I am a CPA myself, you know, you're a fool if your own client, right? So, you know, I don't want to deal with my own books. I have an accountant who deals with it for me, but I know the accounting, right? So I can answer questions. I can get stuff done. I don't need much handholding, but I like having an accountant I can call upon to answer some of these hard questions because I want to grow my business and I want to have the professional advice. So I find that by hiring someone to CPA, I can, you know, have the best of all worlds. I'm sure the cost maybe a bit more than having someone who's a bookkeeper and they

provide that limited scope of service but for me it's an investment that's well worth it right because CPAs are also a good source of referrals the people you can do business with they can they can also just chat with what running your practice right because I'll provide a professional service you know the designated professionals as well so you share a lot of common out commonalities because how you run your business so you know for me that that's why I reached out to a Corbin right Corbyley CPA I've known for a little while now I said hey you want want to take on law firm books. He said, sure.

And, yeah, it's been great ever since. But I like working with, you know, usually solo or smaller CPA firms because I'm also, I also have a smaller law firm. I could deal with them directly. And it's more cost effective, right? Because I'm also a small business. But, yeah, you know, I always, you want to find the right fit for your business, right? And if it's, you know, like I have some friends for lawyers and they just have a bookkeeper

and they just do the books that don't advise them on anything. thing about that, and that's what they want. But for me, I want to take a business to next level. I want people to get that advice, you know, all around. Right. So that's what they can provide me because they are a designated professional. Right. And I think another aspect is a lot of people, when they imagine doing their taxes, is a giant package of paper that they need to drop off at their bookkeeper or CPA. And I'm wondering how technology kind of helps with that. How does it reduce the amount of paper and streamline the communication? Is that an option? that people can consider?

Yeah, you know, there's a lot of options nowadays for reducing the paperwork, right? So, for example, for myself, I can scan in receipts through the apps, the Quickbook app. I can scan receipts that way. I don't need to surprise my accountant with a bunch of receipts at year-end

because that's how things used to be done. You would go to your accountant's office at year-end with a bunch of receipts, and then they would have to slog through it and categorize everything. But nowadays, you can just scan it all up, and then the software will pick out numbers from your receipts, put them into a certain category.

So, for example, if I go to the gas station and fill up gas, right, and I scan it, then the program can pick out things like how much you spent, the taxes, GST, PST, and they'll know, okay, well, you went to this place, obviously the gas station, and so it's going to automatically record it as fuel expense, right? So, you know, all of that is automated pretty much, right? and the accountant will go in just review it, and then, excuse me, just decept it, right? So it really streamlines a lot of that,

which is great because then your accounting costs are reduced because you have a more efficient way of handling, you know, the inputs. And it's just easier, right? And then your accountant, because nowadays, you know, with a more modern practice, a lot of accounts are trying to shift a more cloud-based system. So, you know, they'll see things in real time. it's all updated

and the software the programs you use nowadays are so intelligent so they can figure out accounting entries they'll put into the best guess and it's bang on a lot of the time

so that way your accountant can really sift through the bookkeeping pretty easily especially over time to get into your business they can automate a lot of those inputs and then spend their time looking at reconcifications

looking through your expenses revenues and giving you advice for writing statements so you get a lot more bank for your buck when you have a more efficient setup like that right and when you do a lot of real estate law like i do um you know a lot of the work that we do revolves around lots of money going in money going out a lot of disbursements um it really helped to have a streamlined efficient system right because if you're doing things in a very old school way it becomes very tedious and that's when you make

more mistakes as well right um because you have all kinds of paperwork and trying to get it all compiled is more prone to human error whereas if you have the computer technology in place it removes that potential for human error which is great because you don't want to be audited now you're taking it proceeds from years ago to find out what this 18 dollars went right so you know yeah that is fantastic to kind of develop a further understanding of the benefits of accounting and you talked about real estate why did you go get your mortgage license your broker's license, what were some of the benefits that you saw of doing that? So back in that time, so when I got my academy degree and I started working in industry,

I wanted to get a designation because I wanted to, you know, further, you know, my development as a professional. And so my options were either to get my MBA or to get my CPA or potentially both. But I figured an MBA is great and all, but it didn't line up with where I wanted to be. If I was working for a larger company and they wanted to promote me to like a VP or something and they pay for your MBA, that's the most common route, I think, is people who are already in the industry and they want to take things above, their employer might encourage them to do their MBA, right? But for me, that wasn't my plan, right? So what I figured was the CPA actually made a lot more sense. It's professional designation, which means they have regulatory body that you're expected to be in compliance with, which it might be. opinion holds that weight. It's more cost effective. You can work while doing it. And I was also

actually tutoring for the program as well. So I had familiar with it. So for me, it made sense to pursue accounting designation. And then at the same time, I was thinking about, well, where do I want to go with this? Right? I don't want to become a lawyer. I don't want to do business law. But I also liked real estate because I was getting, because I did some consulting projects on the side. And so I would get a lot of work that was a lot of real estate valuations and things like that, right? Mostly used by companies to do their own decision making. So I wasn't doing it publicly because you need to be licensed for that. But I had people I knew who that ran their own private businesses. They want to acquire businesses. They want to acquire property. And

they wanted an opinion in terms of how much we really pay for this. Right. And so I took on projects where I would crunch the numbers, do the math, provide all kinds of analysis, of what I think a fair valuation is right and so that led to my interest in real estate one of my mentors Sandeep Sam he is a mortgage broker and so I met him in university and he does a lot of and he was as whole most of his career is pretty much in real estate right and he's an awesome guy he really gave me a lot of good advice and guidance over the years and really appreciative of that to still stay in touch with him as well and he's in commercial real estate and one of the options is also just to work with him right learn how the

commercial real estate industry works. I get that view because I found it really interesting and fascinating, right? And so I said, you know what, why not get my license, right? That way, if I wanted to work with him in the mortgage business or work in the legal side of mortgages one day, I can have that perspective, that knowledge. And if not, then have a really good background in terms of knowing what you need to practice as a mortgage broker realtor in BC, right? Because if you actually go through the course material, there's quite a lot in there, right? And it's quite a lot of really good stuff. It's really thorough, right? So for me, I learned that stuff, and it was great to do well in the exams, but I didn't want to become a mortgage

broker. I wasn't interested in the sales side of things yet. I knew I want to go to law school, but I knew what to also do real estate. So for me, that gave me a good insight in terms of the industry, how it works, and then have that knowledge now when I talk to realtors and mortgage brokers, like how licensing process works, what they're expected to know as well, what their role is in the transaction, what they can advise on, which is great because when I can understand what they do better, it makes it easier for me to do things like provide referrals, right,

to know their role of the process, right? because if I know what they do, what their role is, then I can give them a chance to also show that to their clients, right? Because they'll always take the chance to show their customer service to their clients because they're in the sales industry, right? So if I have a client and ask me, maybe they have a file with me for a real estate transaction, and then something comes up.

But I know this is something that the broker can definitely handle. That's not usually something a lawyer does. Well, it's also a chance for the broker. to then show off their knowledge and expertise and their level to customer service, right? So I might call the broker and say, hey, look, this came up on a file. You know, I was thinking that I could do this, this, and this, but I want to know if it's something you wanted to do or not, right? And you're like, oh, sure, yeah, I'll jump on it right away.

And they tell the client, hey, look, this came up, we dealt with it right away. They look great, right? And I know it's something they can do, and that's something they can showcase, right? Because that's how referral relationships work, right? You want it to look out for each other. So that knowledge is really helpful, right? I learned a lot about the mortgage industry, real estate, and it's really good to have that background. And even then, when you're a lawyer, you also do a lot of private deals.

You have private mortgages, private real estate transactions, but you also have to know how far you can go, right? Before you have to do things like get a license or advise your client, hey, look, you're lending money to other people. You need to have a license, mortgage broker involved at this point, right? or if you're, you know, helping someone with a private real estate transaction, well, these are limits of what I can do, right? As a lawyer, at which point you need to have an actual realtor come in because of certain real estate marketing limits, right? So that's why I think it's invaluable if you're in real estate to at least take those

programs and know how the industry works, right? I really appreciate that because growing up, I obviously had no idea about the concepts of investing, starting a business, entrepreneurship, any of these as options. It just wasn't even on my radar. And so it really feels like being able to work with you at Alpine Legal Services, I've had the opportunity to look behind the curtain and have an understanding of how other people look at money, investing, growth, having a business corporation, having money stay within it so that you can invest it and grow it. Like all of those things, I think for so many people, it's not even on their radar. And so I'm interested.

to know your thoughts on real estate because we keep hearing it's like so big, it's really busy, real estate is exploding right now, but what does that mean? Because to me, it's an indication that people are investing their money, but I would have never looked at it that way prior to working with you and kind of seeing how people make financial decisions in regards to mortgages. And I'm hoping that you can elaborate on that. And what do you see, what does it mean that we have this kind of big real estate market right now. How does that impact people's personal finances and perhaps their business finances? Yeah. And this is the question that people ask quite a bit, right? They want to know what the future holds. And people have different

opinions, right? In terms of, there's always someone who will, you know, go extreme one with the other, right? Everyone's got different opinions. And this is why I like studying economics. Because then you can understand how things like inflation. and monetary policy work and form like a bit of an informed opinion, which is great. So, you know, a lot of people would talk to, because nobody expected the real estate market to kind of boom during COVID because there's a lot of uncertainty. Are people going to lose their jobs? Are we going to see more foreclosures?

What's going to happen, right? And so lots of uncertainty there where real estate kind of slowed down because nobody really knew what was going to happen, right? But then when we had more government funding coming in, we had the interest rates cut a bit that provided people, with some liquidity to hide things over, if they needed it, have a cheap access to capital, because if people can borrow money cheaply, they're likely to use that money, which can stimulate the economy, which can keep things going. So that's something like a pandemic doesn't slow things down and cause too many jobs to be lost and impact the economy negatively that way. So that's what we saw. You know, interest rates went down. More people are trying to then

use that to refinance. So if you have a lot of debt while I can pull the equity at your home at a lower rate, consolidate that debt package it up, but then that also becomes a time where property relatively becomes cheaper, right? Because if I've got a home that I own right now and I've got a mortgage on and I'm paying a higher interest rate, well, if now mortgage rates are lower, well, then I can take on a higher payment, which means it can afford more house. I'm going to go out there and buy it while I can. And if I can work from home with my job, well, why am I living here in this city it's more expensive I can move out to other cities that may be a bit out there but now I can still keep my job and you know so a lot of the people are making these

decisions and then you know acting on it right so then you see you know places like chiloac where a lot of people who move out here and you have people who move out here and they might work in Vancouver and they just work online maybe they pop in the office once a week and they get more bang for their buck moving further out as opposed to being in places in Vancouver or Surrey right and so that's how property prices And there's also speculation, there's investment, there's all kinds of reasons, right? People go out there and buy property and then prices go up, right? And then with that, limited housing supply, then rents also go up, right?

Because if you can't find a place to buy, but you're going to be somewhere, maybe you'll rent and then try to find a place later on. So the rental market goes up, right? But, you know, what happens now? That's a big question, right? So depending on who you ask, you different opinion, but, you know, a lot of money was injected into the economy. And usually when that happens, you have inflation, right? And so inflation means that, well, if you inject more money to the economy, people spend, but then prices will go up.

They'll keep up because there's more demand, right? So it all comes down to demand and supply. And so the theory there is that will have higher periods of inflation, right? So then people see things like prices going up, right? And I think people definitely notice that, especially in the pandemic, where prices start going up for things, right? except for wages, right? A lot of people are still getting paid the same, but prices keep going up,

housing costs are going up, but they're still getting paid the same, so their actual, their real income is actually less because of inflation, right? And so, and then what will happen, well, to offset that,

theoretically, interest rates could go up, right? And if interest rates go up, well, then I got a problem, because if you have debt that's tied to the prime rate, well, can you still afford that right so if you maxed out your mortgage with the variable rate um to able to afford a property and let's say that rates go up well then now you maybe are not able to make the same payments so

then what happens what happens in five years when your you know mortgage comes up for renewal and interest rates are really high and now you're kind of well i don't want to make those payments anymore i want to downsize well then maybe um people start to sell right and look to downsize um and that will impact prices. I'll impact, you know, a lot of things moving forward, right? But, I mean, there's no way to crystal ball and see what's really going to happen. People have their different opinions because things like government policies will change, right? And how they, you know, what happens with the central banks rate, right? It's going to go up, it's going to go down. What's the policy going to be moving forward, right? I don't know, right? But that'll definitely impact

things because that's what's considered. We look at a central banking policy. Consider the impact on things like jobs, interest rates, housing affordability. These are all things you have to consider, right? So for now, yeah, decisions are made to help with the pandemic and things like that. But how will end up bytes moving forward because right now we see like really high property prices, high rents, cheaper debt, more people taking on debt, buying things, inflation happening, right? Where do we stand after all that, right?

That's the big question. I think that this conversation is so important because when I think of inflation, I think of my law textbook for tax law said that that impact people on fixed incomes the most. And I think of who's on fixed incomes within the Fraser Valley, and I think of indigenous communities and people in poverty. And I get concerned when I don't see anyone standing up and voicing their concerns about the spending bills and the stimulus packages that are coming about, because nobody seems to be sounding the alarm and saying, hey, you know who this impacts the worst, people on minimum wage jobs, people in poverty, and indigenous communities. And I hear almost every political party saying they care deeply about indigenous communities and building that connection.

And so the other part I want to connect this with is I've been listening to a person named Robert Breedlove, who is, he was a stockbroker and kind of big into finance in the U.S. Then he got interested in Bitcoin. And I've been very hesitant to get interested in Bitcoin because it seems like a fad. But one of the arguments he made irrelevant to Bitcoin was that counterfeiting money is illegal, but when the government

do it, it's just legal counterfeiting. They're making something for nothing. There's no value behind the money they're printing. And so that's what causes the currency to devalue, and then that's what causes inflation, is this approach through central banking. And so his argument is through something like

Bitcoin that wouldn't be, occur as much because there's a fixed amount and there's nobody else who can create more of the currency. So I'm just interested to know a little bit about your thoughts on inflation and how people should be navigating this. Because I think over the next five years, we are going to see inflation no matter what. The spending has already occurred. And so people are going to be impacted. And hopefully people listening can take a few steps towards trying to protect themselves against that. Because as I said, I'm worried about my indigenous community and how people are actually

going to be impacted moving forward. And if you have any thoughts on how you would approach trying to protect yourself from inflation, like investing in property, you've mentioned that is one of your hedges against inflation. And so I'm interested in your thoughts on that. Yeah. I mean, in periods of inflation, what they call your real return decreases. So, for example, if I have an investment and it gives you 5% return, inflation is 3%.

I'm really only earning 2%. Right? So in periods of inflation, your real return goes down. But at the same time, if you have cheaper debt, usually debt holders are the ones that benefit during periods of inflation because the real cost of that debt goes down. So, for example, Zimbabwe, they have like a trillion dollar. I'm not sure how far they are in hyperinflation, but like a trillion dollar bill there goes nowhere, right? because they've experienced so much inflation that you take, like, you know, containers, buckets, wheelbarrows full of money just to buy necessities, right?

Because that's how far the currency has been devalued. Now, imagine if at a certain point, I was in Zabwe, like a trillion dollars, and it was worth a lot at a certain point, right? And I used that to buy everything. And then I took out a loan to do that. And then hyperinflation comes about, well, my... debt is a trillion dollars and now a trillion dollars not worth anything so I can easily pay it back because it's not worth anything right so that's kind of the

logic behind how debt holders can win during inflation because now the real cost of debt is lower right so what some people are doing which is what you're seeing is they're taking out cheaper debt to invest so that way you know their investments will grow with the rate of inflation plus whatever return and then when it comes time to pay out the debt, well, the cost of the debt is much lower than inflation, right? So inflation is 3%, and I borrow money at like, I don't know, 2% under a really good mortgage and invest it and earn like 8%.

Well, I don't really care so much of the cost of the debt because it's so cheap, right? And then as interest rates, as inflation happens, and then the prices of the investments and the assets that I own go up, well, I can sell that and pay off the relatively cheap debt, right? So that's what you're seeing a lot of investment activity, and that's why you're seeing people get really speculative investments. You have people investing in things like cryptocurrency, right, where, you know, my own opinion, I don't really feel too confident as an investment because there's what's backing it up. But I'm not an expert when it comes to investing, right? So maybe I'm the biggest fool. I don't have any money in Bitcoin, right?

You know, but that's just how investing works, right? I don't want to take a necessary risk when I kind of sucks. I don't understand it. But that's why you're seeing people speculate more because they have that cheap debt there, they borrow the money, they put it wherever because they want to hedge against deflation. They want to take advantage of the increasing values in the market. And that's, yeah, that's where you're seeing like NFTs, right, people investing in that. They're spending millions and hundreds of thousands of dollars on an asset where the actual value is not really known yet, right?

So you're seeing a lot of speculation because people are trying to capitalize. on that gain with the cheaper debt right and the people who are really impact are those people who are on a fixed income limited income or you know they have they have jobs where they don't have much room to negotiate a higher wage or a higher salary their their income is not tied to inflation because for example certain government jobs maybe you will get a certain guaranteed inflationary increase every year or some union jobs will have that in place But if you're someone working a retail job or you have a fixed income or any kind of work like that, you're not going to get inflation increase. So costs are going up, but your real income is going down because, you know, a couple thousand dollars today, well, a couple thousand dollars like a few months ago is not worth the same today.

You can buy less with it, right? And that's when it becomes more of a political decision then, you know, should we increase things like the minimum wage? should it be indexed to inflation, you know, should employers be doing more to, you know, to pay more, right? And that's why I've seen people walk out on jobs nowadays, right? I'm sure you've seen, you know, restaurants and, you know, certain stores that employees just walk out because at a certain point, you know, it's not worth it anymore for them, right? Because the real wage is so low, why don't even bother going to work then, right? I might as well just wait. and just see what else comes up because of this point if I'm showing up and what I'm earning is really not not enough to pay the bills what's the point right like you see like I would see forum posts where people in the US would get a stimulus check and it's like 600 bucks and they lost their job they have nothing right they're really struggling to get by they don't have a plan they don't know what to do and they don't know what to do 600 bucks well I can't do anything with this I might as well blow it on the new gaming console because what else we're going to do right this point so you know people get to the point of you know hopelessness and hopelessness right

But what can be done about that? It's a political decision, right? So, you know, for me, I think that it would be good to at least tie things like minimum wage to inflation. So that way, if you're someone who's earning the minimum wage today, you should be able to afford the same standard of living in 10 years, right? And it's not like, you know, oh, the minimum wage has gone up. Now people are going to go out there and live a life of luxury. I mean, it's minimum wage. It's tough enough as is, right?

So tying that to inflation, I don't really see the downside of that because it hasn't gone up in a long time, right? And now I know it's going up a bit, et cetera, and what the value is compared to inflation, you know, I'm not sure like where it should be, et cetera. But, you know, I remember when I was working minimum wage, it was $8 an hour, right? And sure, back then, we had the $6 training wage, $8 an hour. But what I could buy with it was different from $8 and $6 an hour now. You know, like obviously minimum wage is higher than that now, but with inflation, it's worth less, right? Whereas if I was, you know, make $810 an hour in 1950s, very different story, right? But that's just the impact of inflation over time, right? So, you know, there should be some kind of measure to at least ensure a certain, you know, quality of life at the bare minimum with inflation. Otherwise, what do you do? Right? Costs are going up around you and you can't afford to keep up with it. Well, why aren't wages going up to also reflect the inflation? right um but again it's a political thing right society votes for who they think has the right ideas and they put that into place hopefully um but um you know it's the uh it's the political

process right so if there's uh and i think nowadays people are voicing it more right we have um all kinds of ways to voice your opinions online spread the word um get support and go out there and vote right and that's what it ultimately comes down to absolutely and i think that that's really helpful for people because i don't know if most people think about it inflation or think about the long-term impacts. I see a lot of people complaining that they don't want to go to work or they don't want to get paid that amount, but I don't know if they're connecting that to the spending that the federal government has made and how that plays a role in our communities right here in Chilliwack or the Fraser Valley. So I think that that discussion was

really valuable. Can you tell us about what motivated you to go to law school and what you took away from that experience? Yeah. I mean, the thing law school is that you have, And it's a good thing is that you have a lot of different perspectives. So that's really cool, I find, right? Because when you go into, like, for example, if I go and go to school for accounting, you're going to have a lot of people with very similar perspectives, right? Because they're there to learn in really specific trade. And they might have a very limited mindset because they're mostly there to pick up a skill, right?

But with law, people go into law for very different reasons. because it's such a broad profession, right? You can be a criminal lawyer. You can be a real estate lawyer. You can do really high-end, complex, international, you know, intellectual property law, right? There's, you can really do different things. So you get a lot of people with different perspectives, et cetera. Sometimes people want to, you know, really champion a certain cause, right?

Maybe they want to, maybe they're, they have lawyers and their family who go on to become judges or, you know, academic researchers, and that's what they want to do, right? So you have all kinds of perspectives, which is what we need in the profession, right? You always want that kind of diverse perspective. Otherwise, you're having people in positions of power, positions of authority who have the legal background, they're being relied upon. And it's good to know that there's a variety there instead of just relying on one perspective, right? So, but for me, I knew I wanted to go into business. I wanted to work with business clients. I wanted to have my own business.

I wanted to work in real estate. You know, I'm not going to, you know, pretend that I went into law school to try to, you know, champion a certain cause or anything like that, which is, it's noble to do. But, you know, my skill is better aligned with being a business person. And then when I do achieve that success in business, I can then use that to contribute to society in my own different way, right? So that was my rationale was I'll do what I'm naturally inclined at and then leverage those skills. So for me, when I looked at law, I wanted to go into a profession that I would find challenging, that I would find stimulating. You know, that would open up more doors for me. And that would allow me to leverage a certain set of skills to either have my own business, you know, and just have that opportunity, right?

So law school checked off all the boxes, right? Talking to lawyers, seeing what they do day to day, I found it more interesting, right? And, you know, it's, yeah, it's, you can do a lot with your law degree. It opens up a lot of doors for sure. And you get trained to think about things in a very different way, right? Because you have the legal way of looking at it. And, you know, people in the general public who, you know, have that legal training, you know, and you see it all the time, right? You know, you can't do

this. It's against my charter rights and, like, they don't understand how that stuff really works, but it impacts us day to day. We're all governed by laws, right? It impacts how it's, it's what really holds society together, right? Otherwise, you know, if there were no laws in place, what happens, right? Or what happens if people lose faith? in the law. They lose trust in the law. They lose trust in the legal system. Society looks very different, right? So let's be lived in society where, you know,

there's no real stability in place, and the laws are more of a suggestion. There's no way to really enforce it, right? Let's see, you can slip your, you know, you get pulled over or something, you can just slip your police officer 20 bucks and let you off the hook, and there's no real justice, there's no real enforcement.

What would society look like at that point, right? And laws become something where no one really respects the law, they don't really obeys the law. Well, society is going to go downhill real quick, right? Because there's no certainty, right? Whereas if you look at, you know, how we live today, I'm like sure it's not perfect, but, you know, without thinking about it, we're participating in the system, this legal system.

And, you know, we're abiding by certain rules. It's unspoken. It's, you don't even think about it, but you comply with it every day. You know, when you wake up in the morning and you hop into your car and you drive within the lanes, you stop at the stoplight, you stay within the speed limit, stuff like that, you're obeying all those laws, right? And, you know, you're, maybe you don't want to wake up that morning and think about just attacking random people because it's not the right thing to do. It's illegal, right? I mean, some people might do it anyways, but, you know, we comply with certain laws just by living in the society, right? and it really holds things together

and so you know as much to people make lawyer jokes imagine a place where there is no rule of law right would you want to live in society like that we have so many advantages in society where we do have that stability the political stability that social stability because of laws right so to understand

that and to be part of that that's really cool right and I really like that and then and it's not it's not easy it's not simple and that's why lawyers have jobs right because people want to make sure what they're doing is in accordance with the law, right? So if someone, let's say,

is going through a separation or divorce, well, there's a whole bunch of rules in place to ensure things like fairness, transparency, consistency, and it's an extremely difficult system to navigate. It's really intimidating. And that's why you have lawyers to deal with that specifically, right? Because otherwise, a person trying to go to that themselves, it's really difficult. They try to be more accessible, but you don't want to also sacrifice things like fairness and, you know, justice and, you know, for the sake of accessibility either, right? Because you want to make sure there's a fair, just outcome for people, right? So there's procedures, there's rules in place, and to be a lawyer to understand that,

to be able to offer that to people. That's pretty neat, right? It's a really privileged position in society. It's one of those things where when you do become a lawyer, you have to understand and respect in the profession, your role in society. you know, you can't just abuse that privilege. But it's really nice to have that and people to offer that, right? Because I have clients who, you know, they ask for advice.

They want to know what the legal rights are. I can advise them, all right? And maybe the perspective will change. Oh, I didn't know that things were like this. Okay, well, I'm not going to do this. I'm going to do this now, right? They rely on your advice. And sure enough, like, obviously, they pay you for that advice.

But the value they gain from getting professional legal advice, it's huge. Right? And as a lawyer, you know, the buck stops with you, right? You can't just, you know, say, oh, man, I don't know what I'm doing here, right? It's, you're the lawyer, right? It's your job. You figure things out. You get an answer. You advise your clients professionally, you know, with integrity. And it goes a long way. And you see the impact of that, right? And that's what I think, when I think of my decision to go to law school, you know, I wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to expand my career options. I wanted to do. be the person where I can spend my time figuring out solutions to problems to help people, right? That's what you're doing. No matter what area of law you're in, you're a problem solver. That's what you do all day. Whether it's family, criminal, wills and estates, real estate business, you're taking a legal

problem and you're finding a solution to it for your client, right? And when you think about it that way, it's really, it changes perspective on it, right? Because people coming to you, they're making that step to actually come to you as a lawyer, right? for some people it takes a lot to eventually get to the point where, okay, I need a lawyer, right? And then make that phone call, the email you or whatever it is.

Again, touch with you. And hopefully something can actually help them with. But, you know, looking for that advice and that help, right? And they're basically taking, you know, that problem that they're having and putting on your shoulders, right, with the trust that you'll get it done, right?

And for some people, that responsibility can, you know, trigger that kind of anxiety. Like, oh, this is a big deal. right, especially in areas like, for example, criminal law, right, where, you know, you have a client, have a case. Maybe it's not a popular case, right? Maybe they're accused of something's really terrible, especially in a community where

people might know them, and now they're a criminal lawyer to help them. And the thing is, is that, you know, they have rights, they have their side of the story, right? And as you know, when you study criminal law, you know, accusations sometimes when you actually look at the facts, well, you can't prove it around a reasonable doubt. And when you actually look at both sides of the story, it paints a very different picture, right? But if no one is there to understand and legally explain and argue that side and argue the law, they end up with people who may be ostracized by the public or maybe they go to jail over something that they really did not either do or they weren't guilty of. And it's not in accordance with her justice system, right? It's not perfect. I'm not saying it's perfect at all.

No system's ever going to be perfect. But, you know, as a lawyer who practices, if you practice in that area, that's a huge responsibility, right? Because you're the person who is going to try to guarantee this person justice in this current system, right, to whatever they're entitled to, right? And that can mean a huge, that can really change someone's life, right? Could be the difference between, let's say someone is guilty of an offense based on their factors. Maybe it's more just for them to serve a two-year sentence as opposed to a five, 10-year sentence, right, depending on what's going on.

But that comes down to you as a criminal lawyer and how will you advocate, how you know the justice system, your case law. And that's a huge responsibility because that can change this person's life, right? So that's a really huge burden to shoulder, but that's the expectation as a professional in an area is that you're able to shoulder that for your clients, right? And I did, when I was volunteering at EBC, I was part of Ellis Laf, I did exclusively criminal law, right? And it helped some people out with some really messy matters. And it was really cool, but it wasn't an area that I think could do every day. It was not lined with my skill set, but I was able to help people the best that I could.

But give you a lot of respect for the different areas of law, right? And how people can help people, right? And it's really neat. It's definitely a privilege to be a lawyer, for sure. Right. And can you tie this in with starting Alpine Legal Services, because that started in October 2019. We're in September 2021, so almost two years. What was the process to get this business started?

Did you have to write a business plan? Did you have to go to banks to get financing? How did you get the business started? And perhaps we can tie this in with the Alpine Legal Services Pen as well. Right. Yeah, so I always liked running a business and being the ones ultimately responsible for the business, right? So for me, when I'm an employee working for someone else, I'm like, sure, you want to work hard, you want to, you know, do well because that's what you're getting paid to do. But the motivation is different.

The feeling is different, right? Maybe you're not a fan of the team that you're stuck with, right? You feel like you can do more if you didn't have them, you know, with politics and the different skills. Maybe you don't jive well with your team. Maybe you don't like your boss who you work for. You think you can do a better job or, you know, whatever it is. You want to have your own business and you think you can really pull it off, right? So for me, I've always wanted to have my own business, do my own thing, have employees, have staff, grow something, and really take that risk.

I like it, right? Everything about it, that jies my personality, right? And if things go well, great. If things don't go well, well, what can I do better? And how can I improve and take the next step? I like that kind of stuff. For some people, they don't like that risk, right? But for me, it's, I love it, right?

To me, that's what I want, right? So it was really no, it was a really no-brainer, you know, to have my own practice. And in terms of, you know, the cost and things like that, how you go about it, it's a service business. It's what it is, right? You're offering a service and you're getting paid for that service. So you have to think about things like, well, what services will I be providing? How do I price those services?

How do I differentiate my services from my competition? How do I get the word out there? What resources I need to put into place to make this business happen? And then what are the steps I take to go from where I am now to putting all of this into place, right? And it's not easy, no matter which business you have to go from point A to point B, you know, to point Z. there's a lot involved, right? And maybe you're an expert in your area of what you do for a living, but maybe you're not really that good at things like marketing or branding

or thinking about business strategy or thinking about financing. And that's okay, right? There's people out there who can help you, right? You have a team, right? You have an accountant, you have your lawyer, you have your banker, right? You have people out there, other entrepreneurs, you have a network, right? Create those connections and then, you know, there's no, You're not expected to know everything or to do everything, you know, and don't feel like you have to be in that position before you can start a business, right?

If you have an idea and you're willing to work hard, you know, people will support you to tap into a network, create the support network and make it happen, right? And for me, I'd like all aspects of business, right? So for me, it started off with thinking of a company name, thinking of, you know, well, kind of a brand image don't want to convey out there. right because that's important i could do i can take the easy way out and just do you know presad law company right or whatever right but i didn't want to just follow that generic path is like you know yeah last name and you know i want to get something different right i want to do something different right i want to have an actual independent brand i wanted to resonate with people i want to be unique i don't want to just say you know you know law corporation a law firm

whatever it is and i'll pen legal service when i thought of that i just i was like you know what I like this, right? We provide legal services, Alpine, we tied that into, like, the, you know, the mountains. I think a lot of people who live in shallow life. They love the mountains, right? Which is, you know, I love the mountains too, part of why I moved here. But, you know, thinking about things like the name, the branding, the design, the logo, and the marketing. And it took a long time.

Like, even though we started in October, we didn't really start getting clients doing business until December, right? Because you need time to set things up, right? You need to have your bank accounts, need to be compliant in law society. You need to have all the insurance in place. You have to have all your ducks in a row. So when you open up your doors and people come to you, they can trust and rely on what you're offering them, right? So, yeah, and the pen was part of it too, right?

It was, because I designed all my stuff, right? I just have an eye for what I want, and I found that when I do it myself, I can really put that vision into place. because there's been sometimes where I've hired people they don't share the same vision but for me it plays a lot of weight into this stuff right so if they don't share the same vision

and I'm like you know what maybe it will fly but I don't know I really want to control the images out there right so when it comes to stuff like pens people think a lot of people think of pens oh you just hand it out

and they're expensive so we'll get the cheapest pen we can and just produce as many as we can in order, get the cheapest, the most bang for your buck, and just hand them out to clients, right? So, you know, client walks out of your office, they've got a pen, it's got your logo on it. Okay.

And that's like the bare minimum, right? That's what people do. But for me, I was signing something at some point, and I was using a branded pen from some other business, and the pen literally just fell apart, right? And I was at the bank also signing documents with the client, and literally the pen that was being used. it fell apart, right? I'm like, really? You put your logo on something that's just cheap and not high quality and it falls apart and that people associate that with your image of your, of your company, your firm. And there's just a small thing, but it really resonates

because when people are using the pen, they're actually using it to do something, right? And now it's falling apart. Now they've got to find other pen. It's an inconvenience and, you know, just so you can save like maybe 20 cents, right? And so for me, it didn't make any, like, I don't understand. I'm like, you know, well, if you're going to be, investing, it's an investment. It's not an expense. That's why I view it, right? You're investing in merchandise, the company's name on it, branded items. It's going to speak for your company or brand out there in the community, right? Like I've had hundreds of pens. Where they ended up, who's used it for what? I don't know, right? But they relied on it. And I know

that what we have is high quality stuff, right? And it's good to at least know. It's a very small thing, but I do invest that extra money into having that good stuff, so people can rely on it. Like, we have branded umbrellas, right? It took me a long time to find the perfect umbrellas that, you know, are high quality,

that have the right branding, the right color scheme that look good and I'll serve a purpose because, you know, I've had, I've used umbrellas that are branded from other companies, and, you know, when I use an umbrella, it's because I need it. It's raining. I need this.

How many people keep more than one umbrella in the car? And imagine a company cheaps out, on their umbrella and it's low quality and it's raining and you use it and the umbrella it doesn't work and now what do you do walk in the rain and what are you going to think about the company that created an umbrella wow you really offered low quality you know product the name on it um you know it's not going to really sit right with clients so what's the point you've been having in the first place you know whereas for myself we invested in having really high quality merchandise so i know when someone is out there that my brand an umbrella they're trying to support my business by

keeping it and using it. And when it rains and they actually do use it, it's high quality enough where it won't just break on them, leave them high and dry because I spent the extra money to make sure that they have quality equipment if they're going to be supporting our business, right? And it's paid itself off in other ways, too. I have clients that come in and sometimes they're elderly, they have arthritis, they have issues mobility. They can't move their hands in certain ways, right? But I have the pen, and the pen is very thick, and it's got the grip on And so there's been clients who have come in and their mobility is very limited

and they can only move their fingers so far but if it was a thinner pen they could not sign documents. Because this pen is thick enough, they can then use it to sign documents and actually we had clients who would take multiple pens because like, you know what? This is the only size pen we can use for this person to write with.

And that's important for them because can you imagine having that position where you know your health you physically can't sign documents you know that they don't feel as good right

and they feel like you have clients sometimes where they have difficulty sign and they feel bad about it right and it's not their fault right it's like we know that accessibility right so to have them do things you'll use the pen and I've had clients literally just cheer right up like hey look I can sign

right it's things like that where it's really neat that something so simple can actually create that kind of a difference right um you know but it's all the the detail you put in right um and it resonates about your business right so um and these are things that you see when people make business decisions well um oh it's just a stupid pen we're just going to hand them out to clients just get as many as you can for as cheap as we can just put a logo on it the simplest thing right then you sent out a bunch of pens are going to fall apart and people use them you sent a bunch of bills all full and people try to use

them, right? Well, if that's your attitude towards your company's branding and your business, what is I going to say about your service, right? That's what people will think, right? So, you know, I don't, we don't spare an expense when it comes to stuff like this because it's an investment in your company's branding your logo and that's everything, right? I think it's your brand. I think that that's brilliant and I think that you set such a strong example of that. And I think so do Nina with Luna Float and Tim with Co-Work Chilawak. Like going through co-work, it feels like such a high-quality space. And as I told him in our full-length podcast, like the toilet paper even has that quality where when you're in one of those big corporations,

you start to lose a lot of the quality that you might expect because they're trying to save money rather than trying to provide the best quality experience. And his point was, yeah, exactly, this is my office too. So I want it to be a positive experience not only for me, but for everybody else using it. And I think that that's so valuable for all. entrepreneurs and small business owners to keep in the front of their mind is likely nobody is going to put in the time and care that you would if you take the time out and not to overlook something like the pen which you so easily can do it's important to slow down and make sure that each decision is made with intent and with purpose i'm also

interested to know what the what the process was to set up the business do you have to did you know what bank you were going to use with um both nina and tim we talked about choosing your financial institution. How do you go about choosing the financial institutions you're going to work with when starting something like Alpine Legal Services? Is it just who you know? And I just knew this person here, so I just went with TD, or is there some sort of level of analysis that you applied to make sure that you're with the right financial institution? Yeah. Like I said before, when you start a business, it's good to have your core team advisors, right? A business lawyer, an accountant, and a banker, right, to say the least, depending on nature of business,

an insurance advisor, if you have a higher-risk business. Like, you need to have a core team professionals, right? And the banker is a really crucial piece, right? Because for myself, we do a lot of real estate. We work with all the banks, right? They have mortgages, they have loans with clients. It's important for us to be able to have connections to all the banks, right? But for our own business banking needs, you'll have different institutions that can offer

different things, right? So maybe you'll have some bank that is really trying to pick up business with law firms and they have a dedicated advisor who will be there, you call them any time of the day, and they focus just on law firms, right? And they provide certain solutions that law firms really need. Like, for example, a big thing for law firms is having a nice, big line of credit because when business is not so good, because sometimes, depending on where you practice, is a seasonal business, right? Like, real estate goes through cycles, right? So if you're relying on real estate volume and then sometimes it slows down well it helps to have a lot of credit to pay the wages in the meanwhile and then when things pick up you can repay that right so cash flow is a big thing

for law firms right um so maybe some banks out there really focus on that kind of solution for for law firm clients maybe you'll have firms that um are really focusing on small business so they have a whole bunch of advisors that focus on deals of less than a million bucks um and that they really specialize in those law operations right um and maybe that's your goal i'm have an operation where maybe it won't need more than a million bucks to make this business work. We're a smaller business, and then you have someone dedicated to that. Whereas some banks may be focusing on larger companies. They want like $30 to $100 million kinds of deals, right?

And they're really focusing on that, right? So, or maybe there's different institutions that focus on different industries, right? Maybe some are really focused on agriculture, right? And if you're operating a farm or something like that, you really want those connections because that's your business, right? maybe trucking, right? Trucking is a good one as well. Some institutions have a really good team that focuses just on those industries, right?

So when it comes to doing your homework, you want to see things, okay, well, is this institution going to support my business, right? Because if they're not willing to, then, you know, you're investing in that relationship as well, giving them your business. You want to make sure that's looking out for you, right? So, yeah, do your homework, go out there, meet, you know, different bankers. See what they can do for you. Maybe they specialize in industry, maybe get along with them. Maybe the bank can lend you more money based off of other criteria, as opposed just looking at hard financials.

You're willing to find out which institutions are going to support you the most and be there with you for long term. Because as your business grows, they've seen you from the ground up. They can then put in a good word, right? Maybe get you more access to credit, find other flexible needs to help your business, right? It's really helpful to have that, right? So for myself, I reached out to people I knew the banking industry, tree. Because again, as a real estate firm, we have accounts to every bank. We have to, right?

But at the same time, I want to have a relationship with all the banks, right? And I know what kind of a role they fulfill, how they can help my business, and how I can also help them. Because the more I learn about that institution, then I can say, well, when I get a client, well, what are their needs? Hey, I think this bank will be a good fit for you, this credit union a good fit for you, right? And this is what they can offer, talk to so-and-so from there, right? And if I'll keep a couple of their business cards as well, you can talk around, right? Get a feel for it and find out who's a good fit for you, right?

But it's important to have that banking relationship for sure. If you're looking to start your business, sometimes people will say, you know what? Well, I have the money to start my own business today. I don't want to have to go to the bank. It's like, well, it's not about that, right? It's about having access to capital in the future, having someone on your team who knows your business from the ground up since day one.

That's a really good relationship to have, right? yeah you definitely definitely have a really good banker in your corner that really helps I really appreciate that and I'm hoping that you could perhaps steal man the argument for the benefits of the larger banking institutions like TD RBC and Scotia Bank CIVC these ones because we've heard Nina she works with Van City she has a great relationship it's clear that Van City is a good financial institution Tim McAlpine, he's worked with Mount Lehman Credit Union, he works with currency marketing, he supports credit unions within the U.S.

So I've heard the Steelman argument for why credit unions are great, but can you give us a little bit of the landscape on perhaps what we don't know about, the larger banks and how they can be of value to small business owners? Right. So, yeah, I mean, that all also depends on your location, right? So for example, usually in smaller communities, not like Chilac is really small, but you have more of like a credit union center of a stronger presence, right? Because they are more focused in that community aspect of it, right? So there's, so for example, in those communities, they're a bit smaller, maybe the credit unions are more flexible in terms of lending to their clients, right?

Because they're more tied into the committee looking at from that point of view, right? Whereas maybe some of the bigger banks might have said no to certain types of loans. or deals with this personal business, the credit unions would be there to kind of, you know, still offer that service, right? So the people over the years, they built up relationship with the credit unions,

and as the city grows, and there's more options, they still feel a connection to the credit unions, right? But with the bigger retail banks, so for example, for myself, when I was a student, and I wanted to have a lot of credits

so I can do things like fund my own businesses and things like that, I had a really hard time getting any kind of credit, because I just had a credit card at a cell phone. I didn't really have much to really establish

much of a credit history, right? So when I went to the different credit unions, nobody would give me anything, right? It was all, you know, secured line of the credit cards. And it's like, well, I don't have the money to secure a credit card and then borrow my own money back

when I use a credit card, right? But then certain retail banks, you know, because, there's also issues with like insurance and how they do business right, which is why some of these differences occur, but they're willing to lend me a really generous line of credit, no security, nothing, just off the bat at a good rate, interest only.

And I was like, oh, wow, I wasn't expecting that, but thanks. And so through that relationship, I was able to get access to all kinds of credit, right? And even if I didn't need it or needed to use it, it's good to build that trust with the banks, right? So if they give me a larger line of credit or a larger credit limit, I have no plans, if I have no plans in using it, that's great. I can at least show them that if you give me this much access to capital,

I'm not going to go out there and max it out and put the bank into potential jeopardy in terms of losing their money, if I default, I can be trusted with that credit limit, right? And so what happens then is over the years you build that relationship with them, and then when you need money for things, whether it's for your business, whatever it is, you have the relationship, they'll support you, and you have that access to capital, right? which I find a lot of people don't take advantage of as much as they probably should because, for example, I know I've got a relationship with certain banks, I can walk in and I know I can get an insanely good rate on things that are going to credit, auto loan, et cetera,

because I've built it over so many years. And, you know, based on their business model, they can take more risks, so they're not as hesitant to grant me a certain amount of money, right? Whereas some other institutions, maybe they're a bit more cautious and reserved over those risks as they may not be willing to lend as much or if they do it's at a higher rate right so it's important in the community that you're in and the businesses the business they operate to really find the best fit for you in terms of banking and see well which institutions have my back which institutions are going to lend me more right but sometimes it's a mix of both right

because I have you know a few institutions I deal with and I might deal with them for different things right but definitely talk to all of them right and you want to build those connections right so but if you don't even take the step to to build that to ask around to kind of see what's the right for you um then you end up with no fit you end up with nobody in your corner right um and when you need the money then you have no history right because i know there's some people out there they maybe have wealthy families who finance operations and things like that and maybe gets to the point where well now i need uh you know external financial back or like any of the bank or is a credit union someone actually in my corner but have no credit history they have

no corporate credit history, they have nothing, right? And so how is the banker going to go and try to get your credit if you have no history at all? Can they even trust you with unsecured debt? Do you have something that can secure? Who are you? You're a stranger to this institution. We don't know you at all, right? Whereas if you've known your banker or your institution for like 10 years, 15 years, they know you. So even if things, even your business having a hard time, things look a little bit dicey, they know your history. They can, you know, pull a few strings and try to get something for you to help you, right? So, yeah, definitely want to make sure that you really look at all your options,

banks, credit unions, and really find that fit for you, who's looking out for you in your corners, giving you that advice, right? Because I've seen some, like, I had a client who is in trucking, and they had two bankers I worked with. One of them was, you know, really difficult in terms of lending the money, but they really knew the industry. And so they gave them all kinds of advice on terms of how to improve. their company and their business and another end you had someone who was willing to lend the money

but they couldn't really provide them any advice right they didn't really know the industry but they knew I can give you 50 grand tomorrow if you needed it right so who do you want in your corner right maybe you want both but maybe you'll maybe you'll you'll you'll you'll you know try to go with what you have right now improve your business work with the person who knows your industry inside out can help you that kind of stuff right maybe you just want to take the money and figure it out um on your own right um but what's your what's your long term like right so it's It's interesting to see that happen, but you definitely need a good banker in your corner, right? So whether it's through a major retail bank, maybe it's through a credit union, maybe it's through

alternative investment firm or a capital management firm, whatever it is, you find your team, right, and so you can really help you. That is really valuable information. I'm hoping that you can elaborate a little bit more. The information might date over time, but just having a quick understanding of different interest rates. What should people be looking for? What are good interest rates?

what are bad interest rates, what's in the middle, just a little bit of the landscape, because we've heard that the term interest rates said through all of the podcasts that we've done so far. And so I'm hoping you can just give a little bit of a breakdown of what people should be aiming towards or pushing towards in an ideal situation. Yeah, I mean, with rates, so you have things like lines of credit. You know, and the good thing about line of credit is that it's accessible, it's there, right? So if your line of credit, let's say it's a $50,000 line of credit.

it. Um, if I needed it tomorrow, I can just take the money out tomorrow. And I know what the rate's going to be. Usually it's prime plus whatever. Um, and if it's secured, so if it's got, if it's tied to, you know, real estate or some kind of security, the rate's usually lower because the bank is secured. Um, if it's unsecured, rates usually a little bit higher, um, because unsecured. Um, if it's required to be insured, that's going to add a little bit to your cost. But, um, it's still not that. bad right so you see some lines of credit um six percent eight percent ten percent depending on your credit history for your business um for yourself you have secure lines of credit sometimes they're super cheap right looking at like three percent or um you know um depending on again your history with the

institution um the value of your security uh but it's money you can just dip into you don't need to go to a lawyer to the bank you already have it you have it right and then sometimes they have more flexible payment options. You can do interest-only payments with some lines of credit. Sometimes they want a minimum principal payment with your interest payment, right? So you kind of see, okay, well, what's a good fit in terms of my operations? You know, and then you go from there because maybe some institutions offering you a higher line of credit, but they have a minimum blended payment of a certain amount of principal interest. So if you're someone who has a very seasonal business, maybe you care more about having lower cash flow commitments. So you'll take on the whatever gives you the lowest payment

option and then you know when business picks up again you can make those payments more comfortably you can pay off the principal right or maybe you're someone who cares more about the actual cost of interest right so you don't mind making those blended payments we don't need to have you know maybe lower interest only payments not something consider important you want to make sure you can at least put something towards your principal and have it mandatory as private payments and then you know make that commitment it's up to you right but different products different different fits and then you have the credit card right so everybody knows how credit cards what they do right you swipe you buy something goes in your credit card and they have a gift statement in the month right

but the thing is is that with credit cards the cost is really high right even if it is secured card because you're secured means you have like a you know letter of credit with the bank or some kind savings account securing it like some companies have that where for example they might put $20,000 to savings account and that secures their credit card. So their rates are usually much better, but they can at least have the flexibility of accepting payments or making payments. Maybe it's a kind of point benefit out of it, et cetera. Maybe it's an unsecured credit card. You're using it for your business operations or your personal needs, but the interest cost can really, you know, build up, right? If you're not making those payments in full every month or at the end of each

month, right? So if you're someone who is, you know, struggling with debt, well, do I have a lot of credit option because one of the things I've noticed during the pandemic especially when people lose their jobs they might have qualified for like a credit line last year right but now they lost their jobs now they can't get any credit at all so they're stuck going to lenders who might charge a really high interest rate maybe they're stuck with lots of credit card debt whereas if they got that you know cheaper capital last year had access to it at least they could have now used that in the emergency emergency situation to tie things over a bit more right so why you should tell people is when times are good that's when you

should be looking to get more credit right because times are good right um if you have you know if times are good you got a job um maybe got a promotion or raise you're not really too worried about things like that yet that's the time to seek that credit limit to seek that line of credit um and then you know it's there right because when times are tough that's what becomes really hard to get that credit right so for myself um personally through my business i'm always looking for more credit Even if I don't have plans for, I don't want to use it, I want to know that if things took a downturn and needed access to capital, or if I need access to capital to grow my business, the money is there, and I know what's going to cost me, and I've, you know, I know it's there. I'm not waiting for a rainy day to look for that because I know when that day comes, it's going to be more expensive, right? So you want to always know your credit options, and that could be a regular discussion with your banker, right?

I do this all the time when rates are changing hey should I refinance now what do you think is a good idea should I pull more equity out should I use it for something like this what's your opinion and they'll let me know right what are my options right so again we have a relationship with your banker you can have those discussions and really figure things out because you know as I've told you my banking relationships have really paid off right by working on those for like 14 years, right? Trying to build those connections and build that trust with the bank where I can get really good interest rates and get really favorable terms, but you've built it over time, right? So a credit card from my understanding is like 19.98% interest. And you had

made the comment earlier that 2% interest on a mortgage is really good. So should people always be trying to move towards 2, 3, 4, 5, 6% interest rates? Is that ideal numbers, or is there times that it's going to be 10%? What are kind of the interest rate numbers that we're looking at? Yeah, I mean, lines of credit usually involved with the prime rate, right? So as prime rate changes, you know, your prime plus obviously go up. So if it's like prime plus 3, and that's the prime rate is like 4.5%. When you're paying 7.5% your line of credit, right?

if it's, you know, prime plus one, and the prime rate's like 1%, well, then your line of credit is super cheap, right? So it depends on what the prime rate becomes, right? But the plus, right, that's usually impacted by your risk, right? So if you're someone who is considered more of a risk, maybe your rates like prime plus three, four, five, six, right? Just keeps going up compared to someone else who maybe they'll get like straight out prime. If they're like a super VIP client, maybe they'll get some kind of,

mortgage like prime like sub you know less than prime um they'll get a rate that's like prime minus one or something like that right so it really depends on and the thing is it changes all the time right so banks will have certain promotions maybe they'll have certain deals with certain clients maybe for certain types of mortgages or loans they'll change their rates right it really depends to try to focus on but you always want to know your options and try to gravitate towards the lowest interest your lowest cost or borrowing option right so for example um let's say you're someone who doesn't have a house or a property and you can't get a secured line of credit like a he lock you can't get a mortgage right because some institutions will lend what they call

it's like a blended plan where you get a mortgage and line of credit together into like a mortgage security on your house or your property and then you can get the benefits of both a mortgage and land of credit at the same time so you have all kinds of access to capital but if you don't have property then what do you do then you're usually looking at lines of credit right well, you know, what are the factors going into that, right? And as the economy changes, as things change, rates change, you know, there's a discussion with your banker, right? Can I get more credit, right?

Can I, because let's say a line of credits like $5,000, and you find that you need about ideally $10,000 would be a good limit, right? But because you don't have a lot of credit limit, you're now stuck using your credit card for the balance, and they're paying 20-something percent interest on your credit card, right? but if you stay in touch to their banker and they give you a shout and say you know what for your situation we can do 20 grand based on what's going on right now we can get you 20 grand do you want to put that in place for your business or not well now you just save yourself a ton of money right because now you can use that cheaper cost of you know the cheaper cost of borrowing

you have that that option you're not relying on a credit card as much now you have that right but what surprised you know so many people don't even ask for a line of credit they didn't even know what a line of credit is. They just look at credit cards and a house mortgage. They didn't even know about things like lines of credit, right? But again, if you have discussions with your banker, um, we'll tell you about your options, right, in what you have available and how to structure your debt, right? Excuse me, because some debts are viewed differently. For example, student loans, right? Um, I know some people who say, well, um, I've got enough money to not need student loans for the short term, but, you know, I don't feel comfortable going into debt,

but I tell them, well, hey, look, just because you don't need it now, doesn't mean that you won't need it ever, right? Things come up, and I've seen people who didn't take out student loans, and they dipped into the funds, emergency comes up, they depleted all their funds, but now they don't qualify for as much assistance or aid, and now they're stuck because of what do you do if you don't qualify, but you need to, you know the money to go to go to school, school right um because they're too afraid to go into debt well student loan debt is viewed very differently from you know other consumer debt right so you know it's not really going to hurt you right um and usually that's really cheap right because they've limited interest rate on student

loans and stuff like that right so um if you qualify and you need that assistance then sure you know get the student loan and then what and then if you have money at the end of the at the end of your education you can put that towards your loan you can put that towards whatever right at least you have that security you know it's there, right? Whereas if you don't use that and then you don't have access to that anymore, well, now what do you do? Right? So different types of debt are viewed differently. And then student interest loan is actually tax deductible. You can deduct off income taxes. Whereas if you actually take the loan out from the bank, you can't just use that towards, you can't use that as student loan

interest, right? You're paying the full pop. You're not getting a deduction out of it. So, you know, that's what I would do is even when you're starting university, right? Meet with your banker and just say things like, you know, can I get a student line of credit? Can I just get a line of credit, right? If you're in a professional program, like your accounting designation law school, you know, if you're in engineering or medicine, whatever it is, sometimes banks have special programs, right? Where they give you a certain line of credit to become your education costs, right? And that can be ancillary to government student assistance, but then you know you have something there, right? But if you don't exercise that at all, then you end up often having

more expensive debt available to you, right, which is just going to hurt you in the long run, right so always ask right because if you don't ask you don't receive right so um but for me i always um try to always ask um for things like lines of credit increased credit card limits and that just opens up the door to having cheap racks to credit over the years right because in the day um especially in real estate you see that um you can have a certain um type of deal or in business a type of business um where the operations are there, it really comes down to how you do your financing. Because if you have really bad access to capital and you go and finance a certain deal, it's not profitable for you anymore.

But if you have a really good history and you have really cheap access to capital, well, it's profitable for you because your cost of borrowing is so low, right? Like, for example, look at, you know, some of these CEOs, these big corporations. Most of their wealth is tied up in these stocks, right? It's not like an ATM that can just go and, you know, cash it out. they have to maybe hold on to these stocks, so they can't sell it because the stock price will dip. They have certain contractual obligations. But what they do is they borrow money against their stocks, right?

So, you know, if you're someone like Jeff Bezos, they've got hundreds of billions of dollars tied up in all these stocks, do you think the bank will use that security to give you a loan? Of course they would. And then what's the interest rate? Probably nothing, right? But that's a really extreme example. But even at a smaller scale, you want to do things to make yourself more attractive to lenders. So when you do the money, it's there.

It's cheap. Right? it's accessible. That's so valuable for people to understand because I think you're right. I think so many people who are entrepreneurs or small business owners, they have a product or they have a service that they think they can provide and it's going to be the best service. And they don't think about how financing and how being strategic with their money is going to help their idea succeed long term and how that investment in getting to know your banks could pay dividends long term that they didn't consider when they were starting out. I'm hoping that you can,

and this is how we'll wrap it up. Walk us through the process of starting a business from your perspective. When should the business plan come about? When should they come to Alpine Legal Services to incorporate? How much is incorporation typically if they're incorporating in the Fraser Valley? When should they be connecting with community futures, South Fraser, North Fraser or Stolo Community Futures? When should they be opening their doors?

How should they approach just the process of starting a business? Yeah. So the first step is really figuring out what it is that you want to do. Do you have a service-based business? Are you going to be manufacturing something, producing something? What do you want to provide? And how do you want to provide it? So you have to have a basic understanding at least what you're going to be doing out there when you set up your business, right? And you want to gauge, well, what's the demand for this business, right? How am I going to actually make money from this? right and so having that discussion

and just kind of figuring it out thinking about it from the details onto paper because maybe you have a really great product or a really great skill but if there's no demand for it right

then how you can differentiate yourself what's the differentiation strategy there right and so these are the discussions that you know we can have with your peers your colleagues or just figure it on your own but organizations like community features

are great right in helping entrepreneurs you know they do a lot of really great work you know so you want to make sure you at least figure those details out have a business plan that's crucial because that's where you start to lay out well what are you going to do how you're going to do it what's your mission what's your vision what what guides you what's your end what's your end goal there what do your numbers look like your projections you want to have a plan so that way when you actually do go into business you've already thought about a lot of these details and you can start putting into

action because last thing you want is to go in with plan and then issues come up and i have no way of dealing with it right um and that's when it becomes very difficult to to deal with what you have going on whereas if you plan in advance you'll least have some kind of a you know backup fallback plan B you have some way of dealing with it already in place you thought about it right because your business plan it's it's not you know crystal ball it's it's you know we don't look at it thinking oh your business is going to go like this 100 we just look at us see a look how much information how much we have we done how much information is there and it's like a rough tool it's like a guideline right and if you have a really

detailed plan and you've really done your homework um bankers look at that and they want to see not just well dollars and cents what are you looking at here they want to see well how committed are you to your business what have you thought of what are all the risks because the banks are all about risk right um what are the risk for your business how have you done what have you done to manage those risk to mitigate those risks there's always going to be risk right but what have you done to show that you understand those risks you plan for those risks right and if you can go in and show like, listen, this is who I am, this is what I want to do, this is want to provide, there's a demand for it, and in providing that, these are the costs, and these are the risks

for my business, and this is how I plan to mitigate and manage those risks. Well, now you look way more attractive at the institutions, right? They'll lead you the money, they'll help you out, and then when you do start business, it's more, you're more prepared, you're more ready. So then when push comes to shove, you can actually fall back on plan B right away, and then continue on with your business instead of just struggling and then trying to think about what's going on and then your business is operating. You have all these moving parts. It becomes overwhelming. No, you've got a plan. They can sit to the plan. So a business plan is very crucial. It's very critical. You know, like when I started out, I knew, okay, what kind of service

if I can provide? What price point am I going to provide those services at? What are my costs? What's my monthly fixed committed overhead? And how will I cover that? We'll have enough business to cover that we'll have to dip into savings like what's my plan for that right and then once i know okay well this is my committed monthly cost projections um i'll need to generate this much money to break even um i'll leave this much money to at least um hit a point where business is starting to do okay um and then this is the point where i should be starting to hire people and do this and do that and that can afford to expand and things like that right so um you want to make sure that's taking care of the beginning right um so at that point in time you can then

you know more confidently start your business right um but that being said so there's some people out there where they just act they just go along with it right and it works out for them right but the issue with that is that when things don't go so well or when you need money from the banks institutions you have no plan in place you become more of a risk right and so um the biggest thing i think is risk mitigation right you're never going to be able to completely eliminate risk but you want to be able to at least identify it and mitigate it, right? That's what accountants do, that's what lawyers do, right? We try to find ways to mitigate risks for a client, right?

So it's not about just taking risks blindly, it's about taking very calculated risks, right? That's what it's about. So that's what I've noticed with a lot of really great business people. You have some who just take a blind risk and it works out for them, right? But that's not everybody, right? Because I could have easily gone the other way.

And there's lots of people out there who just, they jump in. They're really good at doing a certain thing. They want to monetize on it right away. They jump in, blind, cold. and things don't work out so well because they didn't plan for anything and everything just kind of goes in the wash, right? Whereas calculated risks when I thought of everything in advance, right? So I would prefer understanding those risks and looking at those risks in advance, getting the advice you need to mitigate those risks, and then looking in terms of, okay, well, what do I need to start, right? Do I need to have a physical location to do my business?

Can I share a space? Can I temporarily rent a space? do I need to get started? What's the equipment that I need? How much is going to cost? Where I'm going to store it? What are my insurance requirements? So in case something happens, you don't want to lose everything you have, right? If you get sued, we want to make sure you're insured. And that way also builds security for your clients, where they know if they do a business with you. And let's say something happens, right? That you're insured, they can at least take care of them, right? They have that in place. So insurance, um,

the right structure for your business right maybe for some people it's okay to be incorporated for a bit right it's easier to start it's simpler you have lower accounting and legal costs to deal with the you know proprietorship but the risk is there because of business businesses in your name right so you know incorporation therefore becomes really attractive for a lot of people because of tax planning benefits right have a separate legal entity that liability protection because it is a separate entity, you know, and if you have a lawyer in account, you already know, yeah, pieces together, your annual cost will be, you know, obviously there, right? It's going to cost you, you know, maybe, we've got the corporate tax attorney of your annual

filings, maybe $1,500 a year, right, ish. But compared to the benefits of incorporation, maybe it's worth it for that business at point in time, right? Let's see how you want to start, you have a plan, somebody to start getting the feelers for your team, once you've got a bit of a plan. can talk to your banker, get a lawyer accountant on board, and then start putting the wheels into motion, right? And really, you know, and then that we have your people in your corner that can see your business on the ground up, they can give you advice on things too, right?

Because maybe you haven't thought about, you know, a certain risk or how to mitigate a certain risk, but your banker's dealt with many clients like this, they can help you with that, right? Maybe the lawyer will say, well, the way you're doing things, sure, but this is the risk that you expose yourself to if you do things this way, and this is how we can manage those things. right um even things like service contracts we set up a business um you have clients you have a service contract is your contract and protect you because what if you end up in dispute with your clients right there's uncertainty there while getting a lawyer to look at that contract to begin with um is more cost effective than going to court over this now right um and you don't want to go to court with

your clients right so but having a lawyer draft certain contracts and agreements well now you've got that certainty it it pays dividends right um and your accounting right you want to know how has a business doing? How much money did I make? Where's my money going? Accountant can tell you that kind of information, right? When I say you don't have an accountant, you just look at your bank balance, well, what does bank balance really mean? Did I, am I in a good position right now? How much is this money is for GST? How much is for PST? How much is for payroll? How much is actually a profit? You don't know, right? So you don't really know how well your business is doing. So you know, you want to make sure that you reach out to the right people, get them on board,

focus on mitigating your risk, and then, you know, following their advice, following your gut, doing what you're good at, and just building your business. That is amazing. What can somebody expect if they're about to start their business and they're about to incorporate? What is the process when they come into Alpine Legal Services? How much do they have to pay approximately? And what are some of the benefits?

Because we had privately talked about MinuteBooks, and I didn't even know that that was a thing. So could you tell us just a little bit about that? Yeah. So usually before someone meets with a lawyer to incorporate their business, they've already been in touch with an accountant, right? Because you're going to have to do things like file GST, PST, maybe WCB, income tax. So, you know, they work with their accountant. And then the accountant might say, like, you know, hey, look, you have intellectual property in your business.

Maybe you want to keep it separate, right? Maybe you want to have a holding company and then a separate company for yourself to kind of protect your assets, maybe for tax planning. And maybe it's a good time to talk to a lawyer, right? Right? So that's most time that's the scenario we see because you'll have someone who's a business owner. They just started up. Things are going well. They have an accountant. But they don't really know too much of legal side of things. And now, you know, they're encouraged to get that legal advice. Ideally, you have it from the beginning, right? But, you know, sometimes people set up their business. They just jump into it. And they kind of build as they go along.

And then they talk to the lawyer. And then we would discuss, well, is a corporation right for you? right what what's involved in a corporation so um every corporation has to have a set of corporate records um it's called the minute books and you have to have certain records as part of those minute books um to be compliant with the business corporations act um and when you go and set up a corporate bank account um where you get corporate corporate financing they're going to want to see your minute books they want to make sure it's maintained by a lawyer that it's accurate up to date because the minute books will tell you um it keeps a record of who owns the shares in the company who are the directors of the company making sure that all the necessary filings and resolutions have been have been kept

of the records have been kept so that it can stand to scrutiny from the government the CRA you know whoever right that it's the legal company it's in good standing you know and the lawyer can provide that assurance some people maintain their own minute books which i never recommend because we don't really charge it's like 275 a year for us to do it for you it's not a huge cost to have a lawyer maintain your minute books they know it's actually been taken care of So I have some clients try to do it themselves, and it's not the most exciting thing, and they're going to forget about it. They're going to fall behind in their filings. And then if you fall behind and you miss a couple of filings, where your company can get struck, which means it pretty much gets dissolved automatically.

And then you don't really have a company, but at the same time you are doing business. So now you're stuck in a big mess. That's going to cost quite a bit more to then reinstate your company. Whereas if you have a lawyer maintaining your books to begin with, it's, you know, we're really, think about it and worry about it right um i have some clients who you know they didn't maintain their books at all and it's going to cost them a lot more to pay me to then have to go back in time and put everything in place get them to sign things and you know fix everything right it's going to cost more to fix it than just do it right in the first place right so um you know it's not a big cost

just go talk to a lawyer you know get the corporation done if that's in the best interest of the company um and the clients um we charge thousand bucks in corporation right If it's a standard of corporation, if it's more complex than that, it obviously is going to cost more. That's the base price. That's all inclusive, taxes, disbursements, everything. It's $1,000 out the door. You get a company set up, right? And then from there, you want to have a shareholder's agreement to place.

If you have more than one person involved in the company owning the shares, you want to make sure the relationship between you two are governed. And the shareholder's agreement is a good way of doing that. And that's extra, right? That depends on what you agree to, right? If it's a basic agreement, sure, if you have more complex. Plex agreement, then that's going to obviously cost more, but it provides that kind of certainty in terms of your relationship with the other shareholders of the company. Yeah, right, the county usually starts a discussion.

Ideally, it's a discussion a client has a lawyer from the beginning. But, yeah, you want to make sure a company set up properly. You have a lawyer maintaining your records. And that way, we just go to the bank and they'll say, where's your corporate records? Well, lawyer can send it to the bank right away. You're done. You've got your corporate account. You have access to, you know, corporate lending.

whereas if you don't have those records in place, you don't have your company set up properly, then you're not going to get your financing, right? It's going to become more difficult, right? Yeah, we have the discussion with clients, and we also talk about things like insurance, why you want to have insurance, how it protects you, because certain businesses, let's say it's a home-based business.

You have a corporation, well, the home is still in your name. So if someone, you know, slips and falls in your property, you have a home-based business, you know, you can't just rely on the corporate shield. Are you insured properly? Is your home insured properly? Is your home insured properly? Have you thought about this at all?

Because that's the last thing you want is, you know, maybe someone runs like an Airbnb off of their property will not use for commercial purpose, right? Maybe it's not even allowed if your city bans, short-term rentals, but you're doing anyways, what if someone gets hurt? Are you insured? Who's going to cover the cost? Are you going to pay personally?

So things like that, you want to make sure the insurance private is covered. So you should tell clients, you know, you want to talk to an insurance broker who can help you with this, right? you want to make sure you're insured, so you can run your business with more certainty, right? Or maybe they don't have an accounting yet. They're just trying to start a company, and the first thing to do is talk to the lawyer, right? So reach out to me first, and I'll tell them, well, you know, you want to make sure you talk to an accountant because when we set you up with your company, you'll get your CRA business number,

and then your accountant can advise you in terms of setting up your GST and PST accounts, right? WCB accounts. How often do you have to make remittances? How does that work, right? Because you don't want to fall behind on those remittance either because you have to pay up penalties. and then you're in trouble with the CRA and they're going to ask you questions about that and you build a time to deal with your GST and PST

you don't even know what to do but if I'm an accountant from the beginning they can manage that for you right so these are discussions I have with clients when they set up their company you know and then I advise them because they probably don't even know right those steps but I'm on their team I advise them

and leave my office having a sense of certainty okay well now I know I can have a company set up I'll be incorporated. My account will set up the GST, PST, and then as of this date, you know, this is what I should be doing, and they feel more confident in moving forward, right? And then even small things, like, for example, how you market yourself out there, let's say, for example, I have, you know, a business, let's say Chanel's landscaping, right? And I say, you know what, there's some liability here.

I want to incorporate and have a separate entity for my company. I kind of keep it separate for my own personal being, right? So I incorporate a business, but so now it's Chanel's Landscaping Incorporated, right? But let's say that my business cards, my invoices, all just say Chanel's Landscaping. I said, you know what? I've already invested money in these items. I don't want to spend more money getting stuff that says corporation on it, right? Well, now what you've done is no one knows that they're doing.

business with the corporation. They're doing business with you, right? And as far as they have no idea about your corporate entity, right? So what happens then legally is if you do get sued, they can still see you personally. So you can rely on that corporate structure because now you haven't put yourself out there as a corporation, right? You should get everything redone to show that, hey, look, you're, you know, Chanel's Landscaping Incorporated. The people know, oh, I'm doing business with the corporation, right? But it's those little things people don't think about but legally it's actually very important right um and for certain professionals it doesn't really matter because there's no corporate bail you're still liable um for certain things so

you know it's you know that's just professional regulation right but uh with clients have discussions about things like insurance liability because those are the big areas right it's risk mitigation that's what we do um but uh yeah that's uh that's yeah that's what we do for clients i really appreciate you being willing to take the time. Once again, it was about a year since our first full-length podcast. I really think that this really summarizes the information from our previous guests really well so that people can have a greater understanding of who to talk to in a financial institution, who to talk to as a lawyer, how to get the ball rolling on these ideas. Because I think sometimes when we're networking and when we're having simple conversations, these tough, more

complex conversations about interest rates and about investing and about inflation, they don't get had. And so people are on worse footing when they're starting their business without information that you've shared today. So I, again, want to thank you for taking the time to share and to kind of summarize the information we've gotten out of this mini-series,

and I hope that it's valuable for listeners. Yeah, I hope so as well. Because I think that what discourages a lot of people from entrepreneurship and, you know, making these decisions when it comes to finances is it's overwhelming. there's a lot to know and some people get bogged down like oh it's it's too much it's too scary it's you know it's talk about money and risk and they get too bogged down but um you know it's it's sure

it may be a lot to learn but there's resources there's people can help you right and one of the things you find in in business is that you know what there's a lot of support out there right there there's people wanting to help you and support you and you know it's one of those things you can bond with other business owners over right so yeah i'm you'll notice that you have certain entrepreneurs, business owners, they know others, right, who are also business owners, and they talk about things, talk about their businesses, right, and support each other. So you might feel, you know, maybe it's too late.

I mean, I'm already in debt, and it's really difficult. I find it really hard to get out of this, you know, I want to start a business, but there's too many steps. It's too confusing. I know how to do my work, but I don't know anything about accounting or the law or finances, and it's just too scary. um no that's we can understand like everybody goes through that right it's a daunting it's it's scary it's timid at first but you know just start right just take the first step and it's not as bad as

think it is um there's there's answers out there you're not the first person to go into business the answers are out there um just find the right people the right team and just to start and then uh eventually you get there right just don't let it bog you down don't let it discourage you um you know from doing what you're doing to do in your life right but uh you know unfortunately a lot of people do feel discouraged but no you don't need to feel scared but I'll just start take a first step and then you'll be surprised how far you'll go right

but you know don't feel intimidated or scared by all what you don't know you got to start somewhere but just take that first step and just get going right and then your team will be there to support you and you'd be surprised what you can accomplish right it's you know it's not as bad as you think

right there's always a way that is the perfect way to end this thank you again for coming on yeah no problem thanks Aaron rob of me.